P - snit Imac (again)

[Gremlin]

FFS...

Snit, the first thing we need is the machines current condition.

So, try firing it up; document what it is or isn't doing, be as specific as
you can. What tools do you have handy? I really don't like having to repeat
myself so soon before we turn so much as a screw, so I'll just straight up
ask you, are you upto disasembling the machine or not? It's okay if you want
to back out. I've *already gotten* what I wanted out of this.



--
My entire life can be summed up in one sentence...
"Well, that didn't fucking go as planned."

[Snit]

On Jan 10, 2024 at 10:05:01 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0F6D...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> FFS...
>
> Snit, the first thing we need is the machines current condition.
>
> So, try firing it up; document what it is or isn't doing, be as specific as
> you can.

I will do this when I am back in town and not tied up. Might not be as fast as
you want.

> What tools do you have handy?

I have a TON of tools at my house, not all relevant. What tools are you
thinking of?

> I really don't like having to repeat
> myself so soon before we turn so much as a screw, so I'll just straight up
> ask you, are you upto disasembling the machine or not?

I almost surely can but will check Apple's site for that machine to see what
it takes. Again, that will happen when I have time.

> It's okay if you want
> to back out. I've *already gotten* what I wanted out of this.

This borders on petty squabble territory.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

[pothead]

On 2024-01-11, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 10, 2024 at 10:05:01 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
><XnsB0F6D...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> FFS...
>>
>> Snit, the first thing we need is the machines current condition.
>>
>> So, try firing it up; document what it is or isn't doing, be as specific as
>> you can.
>
> I will do this when I am back in town and not tied up. Might not be as fast as
> you want.
>
>> What tools do you have handy?
>
> I have a TON of tools at my house, not all relevant. What tools are you
> thinking of?

Yea but you don't know the difference between a sdoldering iron and an engraver/
You are an idiot snit.

--
pothead
Tommy Chong For President 2024.
Crazy Joe Biden Is A Demented Imbecile.
Impeach Joe Biden 2022.

[Aardvark]

On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 00:20:28 -0000 (UTC), pothead wrote:

> Yea but you don't know the difference between a sdoldering iron and an
> engraver/

One goes "bzzzzzzz". Can't remember which. LOL



--
#FreePalestine #CeasefireNow #GazaUnderAttack #WarCrimes
"We know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom
of Palestine" - Nelson Mandela

[Snit]

On Jan 11, 2024 at 5:20:28 PM MST, "pothead" wrote
<unq0kc$364eq$1...@dont-email.me>:

> On 2024-01-11, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 10, 2024 at 10:05:01 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
>> <XnsB0F6D...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> FFS...
>>>
>>> Snit, the first thing we need is the machines current condition.
>>>
>>> So, try firing it up; document what it is or isn't doing, be as specific as
>>> you can.
>>
>> I will do this when I am back in town and not tied up. Might not be as fast as
>> you want.
>>
>>> What tools do you have handy?
>>
>> I have a TON of tools at my house, not all relevant. What tools are you
>> thinking of?
>
> Yea but you don't know the difference between a sdoldering iron and an
> engraver/
> You are an idiot snit.

You don't know the difference between being kind and trolling. I will take my
ignorance over yours any day of the week.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2024-01-12, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 11, 2024 at 5:20:28 PM MST, "pothead" wrote
><unq0kc$364eq$1...@dont-email.me>:
>
>> On 2024-01-11, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jan 10, 2024 at 10:05:01 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
>>> <XnsB0F6D...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>
>>>> FFS...
>>>>
>>>> Snit, the first thing we need is the machines current condition.
>>>>
>>>> So, try firing it up; document what it is or isn't doing, be as specific as
>>>> you can.
>>>
>>> I will do this when I am back in town and not tied up. Might not be as fast as
>>> you want.
>>>
>>>> What tools do you have handy?
>>>
>>> I have a TON of tools at my house, not all relevant. What tools are you
>>> thinking of?
>>
>> Yea but you don't know the difference between a sdoldering iron and an
>> engraver/
>> You are an idiot snit.
>
> You don't know the difference between being kind and trolling. I will take my
> ignorance over yours any day of the week.

Being that you have 'set yourself apart' to the degree you have with
your 'activities', it's goofy to expect to be treated like "others".

[Snit]

On Jan 12, 2024 at 9:09:14 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<unro7a$3guhp$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

How you see me is not relevant to reality.

> to the degree you have with
> your 'activities', it's goofy to expect to be treated like "others".

I believe in equal rights. You do not. This is also tied to your bigotry.

[Steve Carroll]

1- Adam Kesher: "Steve, IIRC Sandman's website has a member
area and a login. If you forget your password, you can ask it
to e-mail it to you, and a bot will send an e-mail. *That*
is the e-mail Snit got from Sandman's website, and yes he's
that fucked in the head and starved for attention that he'd
claim it to be an e-mail from Sandman himself. So, don't get
sucked into his little circus. The e-mail, in this particular
instance, did probably originate from Sandman.net." 27 Feb 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/dac74355552b4cc7

2- Alan Baker: "People's perceptions of you are *formed*
by behaviour and not withstanding your occasional on topic
posts, I wish you'd leave too. Please note that despite the
amazing silliness that is Edwin, I have never made the same
wish of him." 27 Feb 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/4a7c3ebf3fc10221

3- amicus_curious (COLA): "Where on earth do you get the
idea that I am arguing with you, little man? Is your name
"Hadron"? Shoo! Go back to your mail order business!"
29 May 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/00ee203fe6183b1b

4- Andrew J. Brehm: "You are not flamed because you speak the
truth, you are flamed because you are a hideous troll and keep
disrupting the newsgroup." 27 Feb 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/52eab53a559e00ce

5- AZ Nomad: "The fact that you routinely change your headers
to weasel out of killfiles proves that you're an asshole."
25 Jun 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/51b43d6c9613c9da

6- Andy/news/nospam: "Why do you keep these things up, Snit? Why
not just let them go away and show how responsible a member
of CSMA you are? You could show your enemies up by being
better than them, rise above the low level you so obviously
dislike. Anything, just stop...." 26 Apr 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d6ffb6b06aa237e5

7- B.B.: "Does the From: header contain the string "Snit"? If
yes, then troll. Otherwise, maybe. Dunno why I had my KF on
you set to expire, but it's fixed now." 13 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/8a98d179b2ff9578

8- BaJoRi: "You know it, and I know it, and everyone else who
has read your idiocy knows it. I took your statement, showed
it to be wrong, then added even more, just to be a dick and
REALLY show you to be a fool. You need to judiciously snip
out pertinent points because you are an intellectually dwarfed
turd-burglar." 11 Nov 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.vacation.las-vegas/msg/647944511b74b82f

9- bobinnv: "I learned some time ago how much better this
group can be if you kill file Snit. I have never understood
why more people don't do the same.." 5 Aug 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/0706dbef8ce1f903

10- Bob B.: "This has always been pretty much a free-for-all
group, but since Snit showed up, its become almost impossible
to have a decent discussion about anything. The solution is
to NOT REPLY TO SNIT. But for some reason, some people just
can't stop feeding him." 27 Dec 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3d2f1dff196ca190

11- bunny: Subject "snit makes me sad", Text "really actually
=3D:-( 9 Oct 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/4e31cb49c1e2d432

12- Brian: "LOL, Has anyone ever been more universally hated on
the USENET than Snit? Too bad he craves the hatred and negative
attention. We will read about him in the news some day soon
going on a shooting rampage. Somebody should get the pychopath
some help before he VT's a bunch of people. 29 May 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/66a89e4f5c89f489

13- buzz off: "Snit is obviously mentally ill, but you and
Steve don't help. You encourage him to post, which he doesn't
need to do. We would all be better off if you just ignore him.
17 Nov 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/2ed879f256677548

14- Carlo Coggi: "He must believe he is surrounded by 'trolls'
... in the groups he trolls in, that is. I wondered if the
idiotrollers like snit would reply to this thread. Of course, I
didn't see his posts, only your reply". 07 Aug 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5ea48f7a84115fd1

15- C Lund: "Snit is not my responsibility. Maybe it's time
for you to learn how to use your kill-filter. I am assuming, of
course, that your Usenet browser has a kill-filter." 5 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/2c390a34b05b24a9

16- cc (COLA): "You are incapable of letting anything go. In
fact, I guarantee you will respond to this post in under 3
hours. Hell, I'd be surprised if it takes longer than 30
minutes. If I really wanted to, I could make this little
side topic go on forever, because you are a complete moron
who just has to respond to anything written about or to you,
even if it just means repeating yourself." 1 Feb 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/3712090033411605

17- Chance Furlong: "HPT, Wally, Sandman, C Lund, Steve
Carroll and Tim Adams are not trolls and do not troll. You,
on the other hand, are a troll." 27 Aug 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/28c267f26965b43f

18- Chris Ahlstrom (COLA): "I try to go more by the contents
of the posts. Although some clowns (e.g. Snit) spew out so
much chaff it is not worth the effort." 14 Feb 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/8b6a982957c7c9d5

Chris Ahlstrom (COLA): "Actually, many of the advocates are
sick to death of Snit's never-ending puerile blather about
trivialities. The occasional reasonable conversations are
too few and far between." 6 Mar 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/811326833ba71864

19- Chris Clement: "ugh....geez man.....let it go" 5 Jul 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/ed093996df6547b2

20- chrisv (cola): "No, she called him 'shit', and rightly so,
for they way he was so ignominiously birthed into a toilet at
the bus depot, and simply refused to die, despite repeated
flushes. It's now far too late to *flush* him, but we can
still *plonk* him..." 12 Sep 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/18099f8aa067f4a5

21- Code Orange: "Then why post it? What need is there for
you to "win" an argument? They don't like you, you don't
like them. Why must you keep this up? What results are you
expecting?"

22- CozmicDebris: "I'm done with your three year old games. The
archives show my answers and your inability to process
them. Keep posting your list and proving that you are an idiot
troll. I will not address it any further- you being too stupid
to realize and accept that is not my problem". 22 Nov 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.cellular.attws/msg/0aa65b7a132dbfe8

23- cshenk: "I happen to believe him over you... and I doubt
I'd be the only person in this ng to do so. You have given
people a lot of 'evidence' that you are dishonest... as
'evidenced' by the quotes list." .... "Why stop with
Jonas? Why not call the entire list of people on your quotes
list 'liars'? After all, they have all labeled you a liar,
troll or worse." 27 Nov 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/909a59de04850ef5

24- Dave Fritzinger: "[snip of stuff I really don't care
to read] Snit, please go away. Get a life, meet a woman, do
something, but please, please, please, GO AWAY!!!!" 2 Jun 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/57bb2fc42ec0f290

25- Dawg Tail: "PC advocates, Mac advocates, Linux
advocates. Almost all of them are making similar claims about
Snit. When you have so many diverse people who share a common
perception where do you think the problem lies? With Snit? Or
almost everyone else? The answer doesn't require an advanced
degree to figure out." 30 Dec 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/73edac32c3ad530b

26- Donald L McDaniel: "Jesus, snit. You're a teacher. I thought
you knew what a metaphor was, and could recognize one when it
was presented to you. I guess I had too much confidence in you."
30 Nov 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3254ec7af27bfb0f

27- ed: "snit, you continually amaze me with how much of a liar
and loser you are. you may notice a semi-regular pattern with me
where i stop responding to your posts for stretches at a time,
then start up responding as if you were a normal person. i
suppose it's tough for the magnitude of your 'loserdom'
to stick, so it loses some of it's sharpness when i stop
responding to you. you almost always start responding back
in a semi normal way, but inevitably degenerate. it's once
again that time. i can only ask that you pass my condolences
to your wife and unborn child for having to put up with such
a dishonest fool as yourself. (well, if your wife is a loser
as well, just pass those condolences to the rug-rat to be;
if not, double condolences to her)." 30 Apr 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/71f74dd6d806ce77

28- Edward Stanfield: "Snit thinks the rules that apply to
honest and honorable people apply to him. That is absurd.
He is the biggest liar in Usenet history. Mackay posted the
email to prove Snit was using sock puppets and he still is.
Snit can not give up his socks puppets and shills. They are
the only ones who ever support him." 28 Jan 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/5b52494d96d12229

29- Edwin: "You've got to be out of your mind, Snit. You're
the worst troll this group has ever seen. You're a liar
and a forger, and you've almost destroyed this group
single-handedly. For you to post a list of out of context
arguments, and lies, and forgeries about your enemies labled
as a "peace effort" has to be one of the craziest stunts you've
pulled. It's all about your sick need for attention, your need
to be center stage at all times. You'd publicly eat dog turd
if you thought it would make people look at you." 18 May 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/37e4a720619642a0

30- Elijah Baley: "Seriously, Snit, you need psychiatric
help. Go see a doctor." 24 Aug 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/6f6c88356b54fc15

31- Elizabot v2.0.2: "I see you were unable to respond to
the points in my post and you are back to your repetitious
regurgitation mode. How childishly typical of you, Snit."
16 Nov 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/55214ccfb7414fe5

32- Fa-groon: "I don't read Snit period. He's been killfiled
since the first day I posted here. [....] I don't want to 'do
like Snit'. As far as I'm concerned, Snit doesn't even exist."
15 Aug 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/dcfbff305ba8b7f0

33- fibercut: "That is the problem. In the years I have been
coming to CSMA I have seen in the past year a real hatred among
people, besides the typical Mac vs. Windows typical argument. I
feel that it is like being in a room of really young children
trying there best to best the other person. The one common
thing among all of this seems to be you. I hate to be like
this, but facts are facts. You seem to be in the middle of a
great percentage of arguments. CSMA has become less about Macs
and more about "look everybody, I think he lied". Is there no
end then all this picking at each other on such a personal
level. CSMA has always been al little adversarial but you
have personally crank it up to the point that this place is
no longer fun. Congratulations on stopping CSMA and making
this place your own personal circus." 12 Jan 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/bbe695bbc3424ab6

34- Geezer: Snit: "Steve Carroll has no sense of morality"
Geezer: "Whined the guy who cannot directly address those
who uncover his lies and deceit;)" Snit: "and no clue about
the law." Geezer: 'Said the guy who believes his unsupported
opinions are "proof". LOL! (snip more of Snit's unsupported
lies)' 1 Jan 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/d0517ced5134934d

35- Geoff M. Fitton (COLA): "The Prescott Computer Guy *still*
showing how stupid he is... What a mar00n". 30 Aug 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/f9401b4b57c59865

36- George Graves: "Jason. You have started an argument with
the Snit (AKA Michael Glasser), this should not be done. He
will drive you crazy with his twisted logic, his deep-rooted
need to be ALWAYS right at any cost. He will move goalposts,
set up strawmen, and bore you into submission with his endless
pedanticism. The only way to engage him is to hit and run. NEVER
engage him, it's a futile, empty procedure that will only anger
you and feed him. Take my advice and STAY AWAY!" 27 Oct 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3d3af33ce25a11fd

37- gimme_this_gimme_that: "Hitting the vodka tonight Snit?"
4 Mar 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/b457a7b378264794

38- Glenn Hall (COLA): "That person is like a constantly running
toilet that won't stop. Does he ever stop talking about UI
consistency? No matter what anyone replies, he adds a few more
branches to the spider web as it grows and grows. It's a waste
of time." 31 Oct 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/c8dd8a244fe1eb2c

39- Greycloud: "You really shouldn't lie like that. Everyone
else notices that you are not honest and you have no honor."
21 Jan 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3b92f11a1ab00f91

40- H: "Your crappy posts are still showing up in seperate
threads, are you doing this on purpose to piss people off? I
dont ever censor people cause that's just retarded but if you
dont fix it I'm gonna have to cause I dont wanna see your name
40 times in a row. So uh, change your client or something".
12 Sep 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/f36ee6b458c86499

41- Hadron (COLA): "Would you please stop the whining. FFS he
has you jumping to his every post. How many more fucking times
are you going to post the same repetitive garbage? Please ..at
least change the record sometimes!!!!!!!" 13 Aug 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/1e0ecbb776623473

41- Hadron (COLA): "I'm not coming to the rescue of anyone. I
have Snit killfiled for his repeated reposts of the same text
time and time again." 24 Aug 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/e99833d90612ee35

41- Hadron (COLA): Snit: "Anyone who denies this is a part of
the herd. Period. This is a simple black and white issue where
there is no middle ground - anyone who lies to defend Stallman's
repulsive support of child abuse *is* a part of the herd."
Hadron: "Constantly posting this dirge about Stallman and his
views is about to get you back in the killfile. Stop it. Its
repulsive and vindictive on your part." 25 Sep 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/6be2e85c701763a7

42- Henry Flam: "You on the other hand must be a deeply
troubled individual who has a fragile ego. I needn't agree
nor disagree with the points above. I don't care about
them. Your constant complaints, whines, rages, etc., wars
with the regular Mac advocates, whom you mislabel as trolls,
arise from your sense that any conversation or thread must
orbit around you. People have pointed that out to you but you
don't accept that. Snit I feel sorry for you. Please go and
see a doctor about your solipsism. There must be a cure for
you deep psychological travail." 18 Aug 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/b9bb48e6e6da75c8

43- Heywood Mogroot: "*plonk*" Aug 19 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d8afd909a308b97f

44- -hh: 'Perversion has utterly nothing to do with the
definition of "synonymous". It is, however, a very clear
example of how you attempt to maliciously debase against anyone
who disagrees with you. As such, I consider this to be a
purposeful attempt by you to try to libel me. This is your only
warning to consider rescinding your remark, with the reminder
that you, and you alone are responsible for that accusation,
both in the ethical as well as the full legal meaning of the
word "responsible".' 25 Feb 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5496641a3426293a

45- High Plains Thumper: "Agreed except for Snit and socks (Joe
Crump and ad nauseum). I've got Snit kill binned, because he
is the classic ad hominem troll. At first he seems reasonable,
but then it always degrades into name calling bullying, the
responder is a liar, etc. AKA the Snit Circus of Pathological
Lies. Perhaps the times he seems reasonable are when he is
properly controlled by medication." 21 Sep 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/249a598ec5aafe85

46- Homer (COLA): "I don't mean this as a personal insult,
but I'm perfectly serious when I say 'Snit' (Michael Glasser)
is obviously mentally ill, and needs help. I was going to
suggest that someone alerts his wife to the problem, but I
have to assume she's already aware of his condition, if she
is in fact still living with him. It's possible, I suppose,
that he's already undergoing counselling and/or on medication,
but if he is then it doesn't seem to be helping much. Maybe he
just missed his 'meds' today (again, I mean that sincerely)."
26 Jan 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/e061874ea94e9ce8

Homer: "Word of advice for anyone concerned: don't be tempted
to get drawn into a Snit circus, it's literally a waste of
time. He's just an attention seeker who'll keep stringing you
along, in a never-ending circle of obtuse questions, for which
he has no genuine interest in the answers." 14 Oct 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/0d06eb2e900e3058

47- hophead: "I have been reading and occasionally posting
to CSMA for a long time now, since 1995 at least. There have
always been trolls and morons, but I've never seen anything
quite so disruptive as the Snit circus. Snit will *never*
back down or stop, and neither will most of his opponents.
A good kill file is your only hope." 20 Aug 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3161a78667e299eb

48- Jamie Hart (cola): "It seems that since you are unable
to offer support for your statements, you're reduced to
personal attacks on me. Incidentally, anyone reading this
post can see that I have offered no straw men, and have only
asked you to explain how the things you state as facts can
be true. I'm really sorry that you're taking this attitude,
the topic is an interesting one and I thought you might have
some insights. I've snipped the rest, since you dislike long
posts and avoid answering any of the questions I asked by
saying everything was just repeated." 6 Dec 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/8e07cde31f4eecf6

49- Jason McNorton: "You're one of the many, many paranoid
people on usenet that should be confined most likely. You
sit there and refresh your screen endlessly. You post the
same nonsense over and over. Either you're a super troll,
or you're a super mess." 1 Nov 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/7a8e091c0b248eb0

50- JEDIDIAH (cola): "You're simply full of shit." 27 Feb 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/cdddf5fd04d9afcb

51- Jeff B.: "Yo, Snit. We're not pals. I think you're a git."
23 Dec 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/0ec649345d433a2d

52- Jeff Hoppe: "This is a Macintosh Advocacy newsgroup. Not
a 12-step recovery plan. Your medical problems or conditions
won't help me achieve a greater understanding of my Mac. In
fact, it detracts from it and those kinds of discussions have
no place in a newsgroup such as this." 18 Nov 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/947a2cc0301a2862

53- Jesus: "Really, Snit. It's annoying. What are you
accomplishing besides being annoying? Is that your goal?"
25 Apr 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/e3d5029d34cde243

54- Jim Lee Jr.: "Snit, read the thread's title, is Bush
mentioned in it? You (and Carroll) ought to learn to stay on
topic and not hijack threads."

55- Jim Polaski: "Why is it that nearly every thread you're
involved in seems like it turns into some tit-for-tat, dozens
of responses to OT things and garbage? Cmon there Snit. Someone
has to take the lead and stop this crap. Try. How about it?"
25 Apr 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5b5c22490ab9649b

56- Jim Richardson (cola): "And yet again, Snit runs away,
rather than actually provide evidence for his claims. Par for
the course I suppose."

"Evasion noted. Snit runs away again rather than produce
evidence for his claims. At least come up with some
original insults Snit! I mean, you *are* capable of original
thoughts! Right? Snit?" 8 Feb 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/e33321cc3343fc44

57- Joey Jojo Junior Shabadoo: "and Snithead has even farther to
fall - in a few weeks he'll be out on the street after midnight,
yelling at passersby 'sucky sucky, $2...'" 23 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/57cf69f66571a5a7

58- John C. Randolph: "You're nothing but a troll yourself. What
are you bitching about?" 1 Dec 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/12ba528be5ad2665

59- JohnOfArc (cola): "I'm not sure "troll" does it justice-
more like a black hole! But hey, if we all promise to never
again even entertain an unkind thought re Apple, will you take
it back and lock it up? Please??" 11 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/e2891b1f3984e121

60- John Q. Public: "I have not been bothered to read Snit's
postings since I figured out who he is. I don't bother to
filter his posts, I just consider the source and skip to the
next one when I see his name." 7 Jan 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/7d34c1bd05c877d2

61- John Slade: "I don't get posts from Snit. I wouldn't be
shocked that he has some kind of disorder. He made up stuff
about being a computer repairman and teacher. He's just plain
loony and best ignored. Let him deal with his disorder by
medication. He's here to do one thing, get attention from
people. He says the crazy stuff just to get a reaction.
You say you like to beat him over the head. Well that's what
he's counting on, he says stuff he knows isn't true in hopes
to get a rise out of people like you. Ignore him, you won't
regret it." 3 Apr 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/394a53a65c28d314

John Slade: "Snit, you have a enough problems as it is without
adding drinking booze to the list. How the hell did you manage
to get out of my killfile? Oh well back into the cage you
go, PLONK." 13 Oct 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.food.wine/msg/992a796786a541d8

62- Josh McKee: "I have no strawman so therefore it has to be in
your mind. .... What is obnoxious are your posts." 26 Jul 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3665b9e002d27c44

63- K E: "I haven't read this board for awhile but I see that
even though the trolls still roam free at least the worst troll
of the lot is mostly being ignored by readers on this bb. If
the few stragglers that keep replying to him would just stop
responding to Snit at all this place could be worth coming back
to. There's a good chance he'll pack up and take his trolling
to more fertile ground." 22 Oct 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/0b9dca7df1f677f4

64- KK: 'Whoa there, ad hominem man. You started off your
sentence with "Ah" like you'd just realized something profound.'
29 Oct 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.howard-stern/msg/6a89029a5b5be5f8

65- Kelsey Bjarnason (cola): "Funny how you simply don't bother
reading the posts that rip your entire thesis to bleeding
gobbets of putrid excrescence. Maybe some day you'll learn how
to support your position, instead of sticking your fingers in
your ears and humming, hoping it'll all go away." 7 Mar 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/96d064a7a5c6074a

66- Ku Karlovsky (cola): "You repeatedly chastise others for
ad hominem attacks while in the same sentence make your own
ad hominem attacks. You make silly claims and then avoid the
subject of your silliness. You're a liar and a hypocrite and
you always have been." 14 Jul 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d1e3f9ac5c72c6ee

67- Lars Trager: "Yes, you are stupid." 7 Jan 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/a9bedf6689f9a54f

68- Lawrence D'Oliveiro (COLA): "You seem to be full of
complaints about your inability to hold up your end of the
argument, aren't you?" 6 Mar 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/8ca5f48099696228

69- Lefty Bigfoot: "Okay, I tried to put up with it for a long
time, but the few times you post something worth reading just
aren't worth it anymore. *plonk*" 16 Dec 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5520adae01120e83

70- Liam Slider (cola): "Maybe he's responding to the fact
you've been an annoying little fuckwit lately. You started out
with the pretense of trying to be fair, but lately all there
is from you in COLA is trashtalk about Linux and you acting
every bit the troll." 16 Jul 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/ad7d6c42c5e4cf2f

71-libcrushersmith: "Snit also thinks Dan Rather still anchors
CBS News and that Gitmo terrorists are innocent! Any time
Snit is cornered, he changes the subject and will never admit
he's wrong." 28 Jan 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/fbc516717f3b7ccf

72- libsnightmare: "You're a sore loser who has resorted to
fifth grade tactics. How fucking sad - all this clown has left
is to edit posts and post fake bullshit. You can't debate... so
you lie. Once again, you have proved Steve Carroll right about
you. Sad..." 4 May 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/a80c93f80bd6bc3e

73- Linonut (cola): "Snit may be the first retraction of my
general killfile amnesty. The volume of cavilling, whining,
foot-stomping, back-tracking, goal-post shifting, and petulance
generated by that effete candy-ass beggars belief". 30 Aug 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/cc4827fd7e8ad574

74- Lloyd Parsons: "Well, I don't know if Oxford is the most
cretinous, I would think that would be reserved for Snit! ;-)"
18 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/b6cd3ac4bf1e08d6

75- Lewis: "hasn't this fight been going on for like 8 years
now? I don't think anything is ever going to fix snit."
02 Mar 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/98ef8bca6b3a9b34

76- Lusotec (COLA): "You can't resist being a liar, it is
pathological, just like you can't resist trolling these forums
day after day, week after week, month after month, year after
year, decade after decade. A pathetic waste of life."
Jun 20 2012

https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/b3d29c146414f077

77- Marious Barrier (COLA): "I must recognize that it is the
first time I see that kind of troll, once that start asking
moderately serious questions and since the first answer,
gradually starts to degenerate it by, in many failed attempts of
being sarcastic, inserting various indirect insults and calling
all people ignorant and unable to answer what he asks for."
14 Oct 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/c6607ea64f436821

78- Mark Kent (cola): "The problem with someone like Mr Glasser
is the same as it is with Mr Wong, even if he were to be honest
now, it would be impossible to determine where the honesty
starts and the usual dishonesty ends. In my primary school,
one of the teachers was very keen on proverbs, and I recall her
going over the "cry wolf" story. Mr Glasser could "cry wolf"
over and over now, and I would not come to help him with his
sheep, because I do not know any way of determining if he's
ever telling the truth, or indeed, if he ever has." 2 Dec 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3f30aa1b65a972b3

79- Marti Van Lin (COLA): "I paid enough attention to Snit
IMHO. I killfiled him the very first month I started lurking
COLA. I find his nitpicking and immature behavior extremely
annoying. I am not going to torture myself reading his
bullshit. Snit is also a proven liar. Remember his retarded
exif debacle." 08 Jul 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/d12622df3671359b

80- Mayor of R'lyeh: "The fact is that he's probably pulling it
to this post since its all about him and he managed to make me
think about him today. A friend of mine has a toddler. I went
over to her house and videotaped her kid doing a bunch of cute
toddler stuff then burned a DVD of it for her. While we were
watching the DVD her kid got mad. He got mad because we quit
making him the center of attention and made that kid on the tv
the center of attention. He even ran up to the tv and tried to
block our view of it. That's how Snit lives his whole life."
30 Sep 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/9935f4154d5a290b

81- McGarnagle: "And you know when Snit is endorsed by two of
the biggest nutjobs in AGA - RichL and El Kabong - you know
he's not very bright and a loon." 31 Oct 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.guitar.amps/msg/e60a33341bff1309

82- Michelle Ronn: "The real topic here is that one someone
refutes your 'facts', you run away and ignore them. Refuting
your 'facts' is easily done in this case. I did it, and you
ignored it." 9 Feb 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/c050c82720737b32

83- Mike: "Nonsense. I never see you "advocate" anything. All
I see you doing is engage in endless semantic arguments with
everyone. You're the TholenBot of CSMA. BTW, that's *not*
a compliment!" 8 Jul 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/7c5b72d70b87ffbd

84- Mike Dee: "I will no longer accuse you of lying
here. Instead I can only say that you are a complete and
delusional kook that happens to inhabit CSMA for the time
being. That you are unaware of how deranged you actually behave
further reinforces this notion. Please seek professional help."

"The point that keeps whooshing over your head Snit, is Elizabot
made no threat to you before you went to the police. She
made a promise. Admittedly, to your delusional spaced out
paranoiac view point, Elizabot was suddenly "threatening"
to you. In so much as you had to take your kooky self down to
your local police shop and blub on their shoulders about how
much in danger you were in [sob, whine], and they had to waste
valuable policing time consoling you over your stupidity. I
bet they have Kook with a capital "K" written at the top of
your profile, Snit." 2 Sep 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/9cf45bc88a324f40

85- mmoore321: "Snit is a human car-accident and we are
all rubbernecking. We know it is bad form, but yet strangely
curious. Treat him the same way, look but just keep moving on."
18 Aug 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/f1c3041d89504c07

86- Mojo: "Actually, these facts piss everybody off because
they are off-topic, unnecessarily confrontational, extremely
boring and clearly show that you are crying out for attention."
20 Sep 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/a38f07b9a4811a80

87- Mr. Blonde: "Lastly, I can't help but comment on the fact
that your obsession with Sandman has actually grown since
you claimed to KF him. Killfilling someone generally implies
you're ignoring that person, yet you piggyback onto virtually
every reply to him here and and check his website's validation
status more often than most people check their e-mail. These are
not the actions of a mentally balanced individual." 19 Jan 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/2b005666ab303e2b

88- MR_ED_of_Course: "Seriously, spend half a day at any
pre-school or kindergarten and see if the kids there can't
teach you a thing or two about social behavior." 16 May 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/55c03a6a0b7813a4

89- Muahman: "Ahhhh shit, another thread lost to the Snit
retard circus!!! I actually dread seeing Snit reply to a
thread because that automatically means it's in the toilet."
8 Jul 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/92e776d521dfa701

90- Mutley (AUK): "For the record ... I'll be done when I
decide that there's more shit on your face than there is on
the sole of my shoe." 01 Nov 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/1802ad3aa000098b

91- Nashton/Nasht0n: "Oh for crying out loud, if I wasn't
convinced that snit is a total loser, and I rarely call
people losers, I certainly am now. Why bother responding to
his stupidities anyway?" 29 Nov 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/be1a326a81441508

92- nessuno (COLA): Chris Ahlstrom: "Have you ever noticed that
threads involving Snit, [...] are a basically a waste of time?
nessuno: "Yep. I don't read them." 29 May 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/2f997598f0e25f9d

93- New Bee: "Honest and honorable? You? You've either got
a wry sense of humor, or you're completely nuts. Either way
you're just a waste of time, and you've done more than anybody
to make this group a cesspool. Then you revel in wallowing
in your own filth." 14 May 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/2856277b085d0274

94- none of your buisiness (COLA): "I am sorry, but I am going
to have to send you to the bin. You're perpetrating the Snit
circus by responding to all of his assinine posts. He is only
here for one reason, to disrupt this group, & you are helping
him, as well as flatfish." 04 Jan 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/a9b40ce46612fdc4

95- Not Important: "I get this mental image of you and a sibling
as children in the back seat of the family car saying: Mom,
'snits' touching me ... and you responding much as you do now
... I'm not touching you, you're touching me! The problem is
that by now you should've grown out of that type of poke and
complain interaction with others. But, of course, you've haven't
learned how to interact with others in a more 'constructive'
and mutually beneficial manner even now." 03 Jul 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d16279e9003ca8f4

96- notlisted (COLA): "I actually like Apple. But I see you as
an asshole who spends an embarassing percentage of your life
posting derogatory comments about a computer operating system
you obviously detest, and insulting those who defend it in a
newsgroup dedicated its advocacy. That's almost the definition
of being an asshole, and you have half a dozen buddies who
do the same thing. You excuse what you do by pretending that
you're merely pointing out problems in the hope that the system
will be improved, but that's an obvious lie whether it's you
saying it or one of your buds. You do it because you enjoy
the feeling it gives you, whatever that is." 07 Mar 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/90b57eaa796e8b14

97- OldCSMAer: "What's he been doing? Am I going to be sorry
I killfiled him?" 27 Nov 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/23b808d9646cd257

98- OldSage: "What drives me nuts is your unrelenting ability
and desire to argue on the head of a pin about the most trivial
of things." 2 Oct 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/88457f8e7c25273e

99- Oxford: "If you are using MT-Newswatcher: Select offending
Author, example Snit... Go to the Filters Menu, Choose 'Kill
this Author' Click 'OK' Then Repeat with each annoying Author
of your choice. Then to see your work... Choose the Filter
Menu again, Then 'Refilter Articles'... Bam! No more boring,
pointless bickering about nothing. Enjoy!!!!!" 14 Aug 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/1d7f9181e95ed9ec

100- Owl (COLA): "You have interacted with me often enough
to know that I never initiate personal attacks. I generally
respond in kind. It is you who usually fall off the civility
wagon first, with your ironically condescending canned
responses that do nothing for your argument and generally
shine a spotlight on the desperation that you are so fearful
of projecting." 5 Mar 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/8debf93e05da4d26

Owl (COLA): "You are a complete idiot and extremely dishonest.
Consider yourself permanently plonked." 29 Mar 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/ba7797c5108b3c10

101- Patrick Nihill: "I mean, honestly, who would you rather
discuss something with; Dan, or someone like Zara? Or,
for that matter, Snit, for whom the work 'troll' seems so
painfully inadequate?" 13 Aug 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/f93db68e683ad769

102- Pawel Wojciak: "Jesus Christ, snit... " 27 Jun 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/93afdfea4d4f491a

103- PC Guy: "Forget it Snit, you're a waste of time. For
someone who talks about everyone else not being "honest and
honorable" you appear to be the least honest and honorable of
anyone here." 22 Apr 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/36bf51df2a2662a4

104- Peter: "I've never felt the need to use the filters in
Newswatcher but I thought Id try the Kill this Author.. option
with Snit. Ten seconds later and he's gone! Amazing." 30 Dec 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/011eef01d7bcd56c

105- Peter Bjorn Perlso: "Plonked for 60 days. Now stfu and take
your argument with sandman into the private room." 13 Dec 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/ae4651ec99be3c77

106- Peter Hayes: "True, but that removes Snit completely,
and someti... err..... occasiona.... errrrr..... once in a
blue moon he has something useful to say." 20 Mar 2007

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/8a31a47e26c5f5b7

107- Peter Jensen (cola): "Where has he ever said that
they were not different windowing environments? Message-ID,
please. Experience has told me not to trust you on anything
without backing evidence." 30 Jun 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/cfd5de2006d42fdc

108- Peter Kohlmann (cola): "Snot Glasser is invading this
group with his inane drivel, so he has to bear what people
think about that dishonest retard. And just for the record:
You *are* a Glasser sock" 30 Jan 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/f3166f6fda92641b

109- PeterBP: "Oh will you stfu". 30 Mar 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3e88e9a86cb5483e

110- Phil Earnhardt: "You're only interested in trying to get
superficial snipes and extrapolate inappropriate conclusions."
1 Nov 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/ad24a97d5dc86277

111- Rapskat (cola): "For instance, your sig you reference
a long standing war you have going with some person from
csma. It's like you single out persons to target your attentions
upon and then continuously berate them with constant barbs
and goads to perpetuate their acrimonious responses, which in
turn you respond in kind, etc. ad infinitum. Above all things,
your affinity for Macs and your overbearing pompous nature
aside, this is what convinces me that your primary purpose
for frequenting this and other groups is to troll." 07 Sep 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/a09c6b8e3e63f42d

112- RichardK: "Just killfile him already." 20 Jun 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/1c9e7ded2e95a582

113- Rick (cola): "Snit, you are a liar. And an ignorant
one. You trash people that are trying their level best to
cope with a horrendous situation. And you do it without the
slightest idea of what is going on." 06 Sep 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/fcad2955ac5cb03b

114- Rick G.: "Just to be plain here, I have no doubt that he is
a troll. I am tolerant of his nature, not blind to it. However,
as a troll, he is ... somewhat clumsy." 22 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/198b88e3d0064a92

115- Robert F.: "Um, perhaps you misunderstand. I don't care
if you quote Mayor McCheese claiming the Earth is a flat plate
perched on the shell of a tortoise, I was merely pointing out
that you run the risk of looking ridiculous when you quote
something patently stupid. If that's your goal, you're on the
right track, and more power to you." 11 Jan 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/4dc22433eae8803d

116- RonB (COLA): "Snit is a crank fixated on one issue,
who's thing is twisting your words so he can win an argument
against a straw man. That's enough to killfile him." 1 Jan 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usenet.kooks/msg/ce8550d4cc5b1b42

RonB: (COLA): "Why do you bother responding to Snit? He makes
no point, he simply gainsays whatever you say. Just another
version of Hadron's 'you're a liar' mantra, which is about
all he can muster nowadays." 27 May 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/279210dd877d7aa0

RonB (COLA): "Original subject line now killfiled. You can
only talk about the freaking clipboard for so many million
freaking messages. As I said, Snit has no common-sense, STOP
mechanism. He's a mechanically obsessive super crank and will
go on forever. I'm not kidding about this, he will *NEVER*
*ever* stop." 6 Mar 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/0df1e0164a8b586e

117- Rotten Apple: "You make trolls like me look like choir
boys." 14 Sep 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/7a92988bcbce8fdb

118- Roy Culley (cola): "You appear to be in the latter
category. Starting crossposted threads for the simple purpose
of hoping to generate a flame war. If you truly want to learn
more about Linux and how it can help you and your supposed
users why aren't you requesting help from a more technical
Linux newsgroup than an advocacy group? As the old saying goes,
those who can do, those who can't teach. Your posts seem to
confirm that saying IMHO." 12 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/d521a80051e24d08

119- S'mee (Keith, rec.motorcycles): "Liar...forger and
worthless. You must be related to our resident racist troll,
he lies as much as you." 29 Dec 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/ab08c00330c8b58d

120- Sandman: "He is by far the most killfiled person in the
-HISTORY- of csma. I've never seen someone so disliked, almost
hated, in a news group before. He has the ability to turn just
about any person against him in just a few posts. On usenet,
trolls do this daily, but the funny part with Michael is that
I actually think he DOESN'T consider himself be a troll -
damn what -EVERYONE ELSE- is calling him. Obviously they
are wrong. Only Tholen himself can match this behaviour."
18 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/51c0735c774215c2

121- sav: "You really need to take a rest somewhere
nice. Honestly, even the nutters who hang out down on Brighton
seafront made more sense than this. You been doing drugs
or something?" 25 May 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/1b251baa5c641370

122- Sean Burke: If you're dumb enough to respond to snit,
you're probably dumb enough to click on a spam attachment that
promises to remove smut from your harddrive." 21 Jan 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/e166032d8959c0e1

123- Sermo Malifer (COLA): Snit: "Why do so many people in
COLA argue *against* me..." Sermo Malifer: "Because you're a
narcissistic troll who posts trash just to get people talking
about you." 21 Jan 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/5ddf14f502e9b3f1

124- spike1: "As for the original post, there's plenty of reason
thought and criteria. The reason is snit's here. The thought is
probably to show everyone here just how bad a troll snit is."
03 Dec 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/c797d640e3b9fc12

125- ShutterBugz: "so snit-zel has some kind of problem
expressing anger, i guess. he has to vent his frustrations in
other ways. and he thinks he's making sense: well the syntax is
there and he figures he's pretty smart. indeed, he tells us,
he's done the personality tests and the iq tests and he's
okay! aaaaahhhhh, you see he's soooooooo well adjusted."
3 Mar 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/7f9fa1cf90490298

126- Steel (COLA): "You may not like the game, but nevertheless,
it's just a game. You play a game yourself don't kid yourself."
14 Oct 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/be1f49165984c350

127- Steve Carroll: "Snit isn't much more than a one trick
pony and not telling the whole story is one of his two main
tricks. His other main trick is to outright lie. Sprinkle in
a bit of denial and you've gone a long way towards defining
his MO. The idea that Snit admits to his errors is one of
the biggest jokes on usenet." 28 Feb 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/0cc84ece10726aac

128- Steve Mackay: "Just killfile Snit, the dishonest piece
of elephant dung, and all would go away. Sure, I got caught up
in the "Snit Circus", but then the cotton candy began to sour,
and CSMA begun to smell like elephant dung." 18 Aug 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/9fc11094133dfcdf

129- Steven de Mena: "Sorry, you have now lost all credibility
with me for your rediculous argument regarding this."
26 Sep 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/1c8777d39c34e293

130- Steve Travis: "Oh oh... Now look what we've done. Snit
has lost all self respect and has sunk to the point of using
words like 'asses' when referring to others. Oh, how could
the morally superior snit have fallen so low.. Please take a
moment out of your busy schedule to feel embarassed for him.
Or perhaps we should set up a fund to get him more happy glue
(and the appropriate plastic bags)." 27 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/3edd9ab69425a6c5

131- Stuart Krivis: "You might as well just give up and plonk
him then. A snit is a snit is a snit and always will be."
15 Aug 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5b382420a696f140

132- Tattoo Vampire (COLA): "In other words, in another
attempt to troll, you made yourself look like a fool. Again".
28 Aug 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/b2676d3540e09f38

133- thanatoid: "Is business/personal life/etc. SO bad that you
had to create Snit? I really thought higher of you until Snit
came in here, in fact I find your site very nice and wish there
was a shop like yours where I live (well, I /think/...) Or is
Snit really just someone whose HD you accidentally wiped? Either
way, it seems to have created a lot of, for lack of a better
word, unpleasantness - just from looking at today's headers."
02 Jul 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/24hoursupport.helpdesk/msg/1c43a7415c97bfa1

134- The Lost Packet (COLA): "well, he's found a seat in my
killbin, I can't be doing with him." 27 Jan 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/2007526a552b3322

135- TheLetterK: "That is merely your perception, Shit. You're
the one lacking counter evidence, and your arguments basically
amount to "I'm right, nya nya nya." No matter how many examples
someone points at to demonstrate their claim, you blindly
continue to insist that they provide no evidence, or that
the evidence given is irrelevant. Worse still, you fall back
on straw men and disingenuous quote mangling to portray the
argument in your favor. You are one of the worst trolls that
inhabit CSMA, Shit. *Edwin* is more prone to fits of reason
than you are." 23 Sep 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/d488596b57132124

136- Thufir: "You can "prove" that no one has disproved your
"proof"? Again, your assertion that no one has done so is
even *less* convincing than your claim that some PDF "proves"
whatever point you're trying to make precisely because I'm
familiar with your MO. That is, you're a dumb-ass who would
claim that that something is proved when it's not, and who
would ignore counter-examples disproving your contention. I
don't know what this *ages old* thread is about, but I know
that you're full of shit." 21 Aug 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/5114623055c01092

137-Tim Adams: "I'd kill file you but then I'd miss the fun. you
see, you never cease to amaze me at just how stupid you really
are. Why just the other day I had a great laugh when I saw you,
the king of liars (in this NG anyway) calling somebody else
a liar." 13 Nov 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/40c7f9407179ff2a

138- Tim Crowley: "I don't know - I think you might have more
compassion. Snit is sick. He needs help. This is the only way
the poor sick fool can get attention. My fucking God, he's
taken to hanging out with and supporting racist pig fuckers
like MuahMuah. It is true that no-one likes him and those that
pretend they do are just using him or don't know him - but
come on- it's not his fault. He's sick. Have some compassion,
eh? All these idiot trolls, Zara, Stew, Tommy, MuaaaahMuaaah,
and Snit - they are all so alike. I pity each and every one
of them" 19 Apr 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/67f0f174110bfa0a

139- Tim Smith: "No, he didn't, and there is no reasonable way
you could actually believe he lied. You are purely trying to
troll here." 14 Apr 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/6e3cfd9240ac4871

140- Timberwoof: "Plonk, Snit." 23 Apr 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/40c8df070c3e776c

141- tom_elam: "Killfile Steve C. and Snit" 07 Jul 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/b50d0c973d21d995

142- TomB (COLA): "No Snit, you were flat out lying in an
attempt to make me look bad. Do you really have to sink to
that level in order to 'be right'? If so, you're pathetic. And
I don't say this because I like to say it." 07 Feb 2010

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/43263f575ac40353

143- Tom Bates: "Do you have to turn any thread you post in
into one of your Circus acts?" 20 Feb 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/25f0e481b605e71f

144- Tommy: "In case you did not get it, I think the moral was:
Stop polluting the world with your infantile and obsessive
"writings". You give Mac advocacy a bad name. If that was your
goal you have succeeded! That also goes for all that bullshit
on your website" 11 Jun 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/03610d2080321d33

145- Tony(UK) (COLA): "Your email address in your headers just
about sums the Linux world up. Nothing to do with the OS, it
is the *uckwits involved in the whole arena and have posted
before on this. If in doubt, deride, insult and attack. Look
inwardly carefully before judging me." 10 Dec 2009

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/533042ed18cefba3

146- TravelinMan: "I still can't figure out what's wrong with
Snit. Most people have him kill-filed and the few who don't
mostly restrict their responses to 'why don't you go away,
no one wants you here'. Just what would keep someone in this
group with all of that animosity? Must be some kind of severe
mental illness." 17 Mar 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/45197fbb46d491df

147- Wally: "Because by your own admission "honor and honesty"
are nothing more than a "game" to you, as such not only do you
wish to define the rules, but no doubt you will also attempt
to alter or bend the rules when inevitably things do not go to
your liking, for this reason I doubt anyone would be foolish
enough to play your game." 16 May 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/b9b3ed1ee20e5220

148- White Spirit (COLA): "Snit deserves a good beat-down,
Rodney King style. I have had to plonk the worthless piece of
Snit to prevent my monitor being defiled with the presence of
his idiotic, narcissistic tripe." 24 Aug 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/2e3adbaae4bfb91d

149- WhoMe: "F michael IS a teacher, it's no wonder he's home
more than he's anywhere near a classroom".

150- William Poaster: "Good grief. If anyone's having a
mental breakdown it's the Prescott Computer Guy, Michael Snit
Glasser. What a f#cked up mess he is." 29 Aug 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/914d1e74855fb461

151- William R. Walsh: "Now, if you'll excuse me, and accept my
sincere apologies for this, PLONK! Feel proud about that. You're
the first person to be plonked from my new computer! :-)
10 Feb 2005

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/313c7368f6369c49

152- Woofbert: "*Plonk*" 14 Jun 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/436e6b5333d747e0

153- zara: "Look - I'm not into combing through thousands of
posts, to prove what was said or not said - I leave stuff like
that to people without lives, like Snit. But it is assuredly,
in the record. Ping Snit to do a search - you will flatter him,
and give meaning to his tawdry little life." 25 Oct 2006

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/a1d4fc7120a6a538

154- Zaren Ankleweed: "And with that, Snit goes in the global
killfile. No subject, no author, no nothing. Buh-bye".
11 Sep 2004

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/12f7c34f24d43624

155- Znu: "The Snit Circus has gotten particularly bad as of
late. When I set up my filters to kill all of Snit's posts,
plus direct replies to them (which is how I'm keeping things
from now on), nearly 40% of the most recent 1000 articles in
CSMA go out the window. .... In all, something like 50% of the
traffic in this group is now related to Snit insanity. .... I
killfile Edwin because I don't have a patience to have
discussions with someone who deliberately tries to waste
my time. But watching *other people* tie him knots can be
entertaining. The Snit-related posts are not like this. They
are endless repetitions of the exact same material and/or
arguments dating back *years* about who said what." 20 Apr 2008

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/msg/9244dd79c682b2d6

156- Kari Lane (COLA): "You are pitiful. And a big pain in
the ass. Without you there might be change to get some real
discussion going on about Linux." 27 Aug 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/5889b9cdf65c0b44

157- Roy Schestowitz (COLA): "Your neighbour troll has gotten
no attention, so he decided to start spamming our site, having
trolled the IRC channel. He has just posted 7 non-content
self-promotion links in a matter of 5 minute (as comments),
The trolling and stalking elsewhere have verged the pathological
too. S*it Glasser -- see help. You're clearly insane." [...]
"The Prescott Lunattic has just pasted his ENTIRE BLOG into my
blog (as comments). If this is not an UBERTROLL, I don't know
what is. 31 Aug 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/b66f067167d0d36b

157- Roy Schestowitz (COLA): "He is piggy-backing other people's
sites for attention. Frankly, he's the most disgusting form
of troll and no wonder even the Mac forums disowned him. He's
a real-life troll." 31 Aug 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/543bc1b219961b16

158 - 7 (COLA): "You went off topic, run, back down, accepted
you are a HYPOCRITE, trolled, posted net abuse and underlined
your illiterate character, ignored the answer, made false
accusation and trolled again." 23 Nov 2011

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/7a9240935bfd3ffc

159 - DFS (COLA): "About Snit? If so, I was fooled by him for
a long time, too, mostly because I didn't closely read his
threads. I knew he liked to split hairs and argue endlessly,
so I usually glossed over his threads. I didn't realize he
would keep babbling "Support your accusation" even in the face
of direct evidence of his lies. Oh well. I finally decided
to killfile him again (my only entry)." 27 Mar 2012

https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/d5fff469502bc7ba

160 - Torre Starnes (COLA): DFS: "About Snit?" Torre Starnes:
"Yep. I admit I was sucked in. In the dumper....." 27 Mar 2012

https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/81eabc1a75ff01d2

161 - clogwog (COLA): "This discussion, a very boring one,
is leading nowhere, please try to accept that cc has his
arguments to disagree with you." 31 May 2012

https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/8bc89787876f55a0

162 - Don Zeigler (COLA)

"Hopefully none of Snot's family, friends or business associates
will ever run across this thread archived on Google. It's the
most shining example yet of his obviously unbalanced mental
state. He's told so many whoppers he can't even keep his story
straight." Jan 16 2009

https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/ab7014a465685945

163 - Gregory Shearman (COLA)

"Just killfile the troll, don't engage it." - Oct 13 2010

https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/d0b08a16aeed057f

[Snit]

On Jan 12, 2024 at 9:11:11 AM MST, "Snit" wrote
<zwdoN.70176$m4d....@fx43.iad>:

As is his norm, Carroll freaked out on seeing info he does not want to face.

[pothead]

On 2024-01-12, Aardvark <aard...@aardvark.uk.pn> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 00:20:28 -0000 (UTC), pothead wrote:
>
>> Yea but you don't know the difference between a sdoldering iron and an
>> engraver/
>
> One goes "bzzzzzzz". Can't remember which. LOL
>

ROTFLMAO!

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:9tLnN.44632$STLe....@fx34.iad Thu,
11 Jan 2024 05:59:33 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 10, 2024 at 10:05:01槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote

> <XnsB0F6D...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> FFS...
>>
>> Snit, the first thing we need is the machines current condition.
>>
>> So, try firing it up; document what it is or isn't doing, be as
>> specific as you can.
>
> I will do this when I am back in town and not tied up. Might not be as
> fast as you want.

What's with the snarky attitude? as fast as I want? Wtf snit? Anyhow, I've
noticed that you've had the time to respond to various other posters for
several days now. You went so far as to claim that the hold up with the help
is on my end; it's not. I'm still waiting for you to provide me the
requested information. Which has been requested for the second time now.

>> What tools do you have handy?
>
> I have a TON of tools at my house, not all relevant. What tools are you
> thinking of?

I see. Okay then, we'll do this baby step style. Report back when you're
able to give me a current condition report of the machine.

>> I really don't like having to repeat
>> myself so soon before we turn so much as a screw, so I'll just straight
>> up ask you, are you upto disasembling the machine or not?
>
> I almost surely can but will check Apple's site for that machine to see
> what it takes. Again, that will happen when I have time.

Snit, you've had plenty of time by the looks of your posting activity to
have gotten that far. What is your present status with the machine?

>> It's okay if you want
>> to back out. I've *already gotten* what I wanted out of this.
>
> This borders on petty squabble territory.

Actually, if we're being completely honest here, your reply has been mostly
attitude towards me. For no reason, at that.
Again, If you don't want my help with this; just say so. That way, neither
of us continues to waste the others time. If you have time to respond to
people on usenet, you have time to fire the machine up and let me know what
it is or isn't doing.

Anyways, I'll continue to wait for you to provide me this information. Just
do me one favor, stop attempting to pin the delays on me. It's quite clear
the delay so far is entirely on your end, not mine. You aren't waiting for
me, and you haven't been waiting for me. I'm still waiting on you to provide
me the answer to the first series of questions I've asked you about the
machine.

[Gremlin]

Aardvark <aard...@aardvark.uk.pn> news:unq0pk$35bmk$1...@dont-email.me Fri,

12 Jan 2024 00:23:16 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Jan 2024 00:20:28 -0000 (UTC), pothead wrote:
>
>> Yea but you don't know the difference between a sdoldering iron and an
>> engraver/
>
> One goes "bzzzzzzz". Can't remember which. LOL

You can read though, yea? Well, one of the engravers in the pic Snit shared
actually still had the sticker on it, pretty clear in english too; that it
was an Engraver.


He's beat the dogsnot out of your petty squabbles comment. Can you provide
him something else to repeat ad nausem? something that, oh, I dunno, might
actually have something to do with the subject in which he's opted to
respond using it. I know, I'm asking for a lot there with that condition;
but work with me, eh? :)

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:pQ%nN.147680$PuZ9....@fx11.iad

Fri, 12 Jan 2024 00:36:37 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> You don't know the difference between being kind and trolling. I will
> take my ignorance over yours any day of the week.

Please don't pollute this thread with nonsensical back and forth bullshit. I'd
rather this thread focus on repairing your computer, if at all possible. I
don't have the free time to jump thru piles of threads. I would hope that
everyone respects this, but, I'm not stupid, either.

[Gremlin]

Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none>
news:unro7a$3guhp$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org Fri, 12 Jan 2024

16:09:14 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> Being that you have 'set yourself apart' to the degree you have with
> your 'activities', it's goofy to expect to be treated like "others".

Please don't. Not in this thread?

For clarification: No snit, I'm not sticking up for you or disagreeing with SC
in any way. I do agree with what he's written. That said, I created this
thread (another one grrr) for the noise reduction. So I can help him, or he
can back out? or whatever, but either way, please, not in this thread. I've
replied to him asking the same.

[Snit]

On Jan 19, 2024 at 8:42:54 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0FEE...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:pQ%nN.147680$PuZ9....@fx11.iad
> Fri, 12 Jan 2024 00:36:37 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> You don't know the difference between being kind and trolling. I will
>> take my ignorance over yours any day of the week.
>
>
> Please don't pollute this thread with nonsensical back and forth bullshit. I'd
> rather this thread focus on repairing your computer, if at all possible. I
> don't have the free time to jump thru piles of threads. I would hope that
> everyone respects this, but, I'm not stupid, either.

If you can set aside your focus on petty squabbles, even if just in this
thread, I would appreciate it.

I likely will be opening the machine up tomorrow (assuming nothing else comes
up). Any advice or help is appreciated. As I have been clear with, I am NOT
likely to dig back in this thread.

[Snit]

On Jan 19, 2024 at 8:42:52 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0FEE7...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:9tLnN.44632$STLe....@fx34.iad Thu,
> 11 Jan 2024 05:59:33 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 10, 2024 at 10:05:01â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB0F6D...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> FFS...
>>>
>>> Snit, the first thing we need is the machines current condition.
>>>
>>> So, try firing it up; document what it is or isn't doing, be as
>>> specific as you can.
>>
>> I will do this when I am back in town and not tied up. Might not be as
>> fast as you want.
>
> What's with the snarky attitude?

Simply a fact. I was not going to change my plans. But I am back in town and
likely will open it up tomorrow. Any advice or help is appreciated. So far
Carroll has pointed me to the info on LEDs. That is a good place to start.

>>
>> I have a TON of tools at my house, not all relevant. What tools are you
>> thinking of?
>
> I see. Okay then, we'll do this baby step style. Report back when you're
> able to give me a current condition report of the machine.

Ah! This. OK, even without digging back I will keep better notes on the
machine. Sincere apologies on saying I would not do things you might have
asked for. THAT I will be doing, and would have even without this comment.
Should have been more clear on that in other posts.

>
>>> I really don't like having to repeat
>>> myself so soon before we turn so much as a screw, so I'll just straight
>>> up ask you, are you upto disasembling the machine or not?
>>
>> I almost surely can but will check Apple's site for that machine to see
>> what it takes. Again, that will happen when I have time.
>
> Snit, you've had plenty of time by the looks of your posting activity to
> have gotten that far. What is your present status with the machine?

Sitting in my home, unplugged.

I snipped your petty squabble stuff. Please let us keep that out of this
thread!

> Again, If you don't want my help with this; just say so.

I have repeatedly told you that I appreciate any help I can get, and have been
directly said I appreciate the LED info Carroll found. You really are tied to
your petty squabbles in ways I cannot connect to. But please leave those out
as much as you can.

>
> Anyways, I'll continue to wait for you to provide me this information.

That is fair. I will report back what I find (presumably tomorrow, though as I
have said, no promises... also doing repairs on a couple properties).

> Just
> do me one favor, stop attempting to pin the delays on me.

Well, even when I got back into town you did not reply BUT THAT IS FINE. I am
not blaming you. And had you replied I might not have gotten to it until
tomorrow anyway. Might not get to it then.

Yes, there are delays. You and I are not always available for this. THAT IS
FINE! I am not in a rush, and I am not blaming you. I am merely noting a fact
you and I do not have this as a major focus. I am completely good with that.
No attack. No snark. No "pinning". That is your perspective, not mine.

[Snit]

On Jan 10, 2024 at 10:05:01 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0F6D...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> FFS...
>
> Snit, the first thing we need is the machines current condition.
>
> So, try firing it up; document what it is or isn't doing, be as specific as
> you can. What tools do you have handy? I really don't like having to repeat
> myself so soon before we turn so much as a screw, so I'll just straight up
> ask you, are you upto disasembling the machine or not? It's okay if you want
> to back out. I've *already gotten* what I wanted out of this.

OK, I looked back in the thread.

When I plug it in and play I will keep notes.

Tools: I have a lot. Most are not relevant. As we have found I either do not
have a working soldering iron or it is not in a usable condition right now.

Before I open it I will check the Apple site to see what they recommend. And
will turn it on and take notes.

Did JUST get a message from a friend with an emergency... so my day is now
more complex than I was hoping. Still think I will have time... but do not
take it personally if I do not.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:43JqN.232878$PuZ9....@fx11.iad
Sat, 20 Jan 2024 05:42:24 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 19, 2024 at 8:42:52槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB0FEE7...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

>
>>> I will do this when I am back in town and not tied up. Might not be as
>>> fast as you want.
>>
>> What's with the snarky attitude?
>
> Simply a fact.

What specifically is a fact which supports your snarky attitude? Why do you
think I care how long it takes you? FFS, it's been a week already and you're
just now getting back to this. Obviously, I don't anticipate a quick
reaction from you on anything; but I do need some clarification, which is
why I'm responding now. I'd rather be snoozing, but, this is important.

> I was not going to change my plans. But I am back in town
> and likely will open it up tomorrow. Any advice or help is appreciated.
> So far Carroll has pointed me to the info on LEDs. That is a good place
> to start.

And this is why I opted to respond tonight, instead of whenever the next
opportunity to do so arrises. Snit, this isn't a free for all, take xx
advice or take yy advice and give it a try. All I've asked you to do is
provide a status report, I haven't asked you to begin disassembly. So, I
need to know, are you planning to do exactly as I tell you to do or not?
It's your machine and you can have whoever you want assist you with working
on it, naturally; but this isn't something both of us can be spitballing
ideas to you back and forth. One, I won't be spitballing. Two, If you take
xx advice over yy advice because you think xx is wrong and yy is right and
you blow a capacitor or a mosfet right off the board and into your eyeball;
I will take no responsibility because you are not following my instructions
exclusively, and precisely as I've instructed. Snit, what I'm offering to
help you do, and teach, as I do so, is not something two or more of us can
be doing if one of the two or more people doesn't have a solid background
and understanding of the components you're going to be working with in
person.

It's your computer, and your ass at risk, physically if something goes
south. Which one of us do you want assisting you? Someone who can google
about the lights just as easily as you could have, or someone who knows you
either need a resistor on those LEDs or a resistive current limited source
of power - so you don't burn them the fuck out? If you didn't know that,
it's okay; unless you're an electronics 'geek' you wouldn't. But, that's one
of many little things that can bite you in the ass if you go mucking around
and you don't know what you're doing anymore so than the person guiding you
does.

I'm not trying to insult SC - I'm simply trying to get you to understand
that this isn't a coding session help me review my code kind of
conversation. As I said though, you do what you like, it is your computer
and I have no control over your decisions. I just need to know what your
game plan is. So far, it's not doing what I've said and I won't be able to
assist you if you intend to keep it that way.

>>> I have a TON of tools at my house, not all relevant. What tools are
>>> you thinking of?
>>
>> I see. Okay then, we'll do this baby step style. Report back when
>> you're able to give me a current condition report of the machine.
>
> Ah! This.

Don't worry about it. I'll deal with you baby step style, as that's
obviously the best way. When I need to know what tools you have, I'll ask
you specifically if you have xx tool. I already told you, I'm not going to
play back and forth bullshit games with you. I asked about the tools, you
got snarky; fine, I'll ask for specific tools when I determine it's
required. If it's required. I told you, I don't have time for bullshit - so
- when you're evasive with me, I'll skip that step and try to dumb it down
further until we reach common ground. Hopefully I don't have to drop out of
warp so fast that you give me a migraine headache. I get enough of them
already and that will piss me off, snit. Assuming I can skip the step you're
being evasive with me on. If not, I'll let you know that and yet again,
circle the fucking airport waiting on you. Oh, this is going to be so much
fun (sarcasm). You're already making this a chore and we haven't even
started yet, snit.

> Should have been more clear on that in other posts.

Ayep. Clarity is important. Following instructions, to the letter, also very
important. I'm not trying to get you to cause further damage, start a fire
you likely won't be able to deal with, or cause you to get yourself hurt, or
unalived; not by a hardware failure anyway. If anything, I'd much rather do
the damage to you in person, myself. It wouldn't work for me to have your
computer do it. You didn't go out of your way to provoke your computer. :)

>> Snit, you've had plenty of time by the looks of your posting activity
>> to have gotten that far. What is your present status with the machine?
>
> Sitting in my home, unplugged.

Well, atleast it's out of storage. Tell me, when do you find the time to
drive around with your odd sleep cycles?

>> Anyways, I'll continue to wait for you to provide me this information.
>
> That is fair. I will report back what I find (presumably tomorrow,
> though as I have said, no promises... also doing repairs on a couple
> properties).

repairs on properties? Oh god, I don't even want to ask...I feel sorry for
the property owners.

>> Just
>> do me one favor, stop attempting to pin the delays on me.
>
> Well, even when I got back into town you did not reply BUT THAT IS FINE.

Oh, I'm so sorry, see, I was working, paying taxes, you know; the stuff
you're allergic to doing. I'm not on usenet every day and I've made that
very clear. It could be days, weeks, months before I post. I've been very
clear about that too, and I've explained why that is and will likely
continue to be for the foreseeable future.

> I am not blaming you.

Well, being as I've already explained quite sometime ago my odd usenet
posting habits that have been going on for quite sometime, I don't care if
you did try to blame me. Besides, The instructions I've given you so far are
still the same as they've always been. You didn't need to wait on me when
you got back in town with the machine to try to start it up and document
what it was/wasn't doing. I've been consistently asking for that very
information since I offered to help you in the first place.

> Yes, there are delays.

It's not necessary for you to repeat my own words back to me. I'm well aware
of what I've written, and if I need to be reminded, my client is actually
pretty good with records keeping.

> You and I are not always available for this.

So far, I've asked you to do something that would take very little of your
time, and I've had to ask you the same thing multiple times now. I just need
to know if you plan to do what I tell you to do or not? This isn't something
you pick and choose the advice/suggestions you like and go with that. That
is not how you professionally troubleshoot and repair electronics at the
level we are going to be working on.

> I am merely noting a fact you and I do not have this as a major focus. I
am
> completely good with that. No attack. No snark. No "pinning". That is
> your perspective, not mine.

I enjoy your revision and attempts to weasel around your previous efforts to
pin the blame on me, which is exactly what you did when you responded to SC.
You have not been waiting on me, contrary to what you wrote:
MID: <dVTnN.144869$Wp_8...@fx17.iad>
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=170573546200

Snit wrote:

With the speed Gremlin is going, maybe. But I still am giving him a chance.

***

So enough with the bullshit, let's not even try on this thread, ok? It's not
a matter of being my perspective, it's literally what you wrote and what
your words that you selected meant, snit. The delay is not on me, the speed
is not on me, I'm *still waiting* on you. Not the other way around.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 12:33:32 AM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0FF1A...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:43JqN.232878$PuZ9....@fx11.iad
> Sat, 20 Jan 2024 05:42:24 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 19, 2024 at 8:42:52â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB0FEE7...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>>> I will do this when I am back in town and not tied up. Might not be as
>>>> fast as you want.
>>>
>>> What's with the snarky attitude?
>>
>> Simply a fact.
>
> What specifically is a fact which supports your snarky attitude?

Your view of my attitude is of precisely no interest to me. You said you
wanted to keep your petty squabbles out of this thread but here you are
focusing on them. Please do better at keeping your word. Stop looking to be
offended. There is literally nothing offensive about my noting I might not get
to my computer as fast as you want. Deal with it.

> Why do you
> think I care how long it takes you?

You have been going on and on about how I have been slow and this, you
incorrectly think, means I do have given up or some such nonsense.

> FFS, it's been a week already and you're
> just now getting back to this. Obviously, I don't anticipate a quick
> reaction from you on anything; but I do need some clarification, which is
> why I'm responding now. I'd rather be snoozing, but, this is important.

Why is this important to you?

>
>> I was not going to change my plans. But I am back in town
>> and likely will open it up tomorrow. Any advice or help is appreciated.
>> So far Carroll has pointed me to the info on LEDs. That is a good place
>> to start.
>
> And this is why I opted to respond tonight, instead of whenever the next
> opportunity to do so arrises. Snit, this isn't a free for all, take xx
> advice or take yy advice and give it a try.

Well, before I open it at all I will note the symptoms. Of course.

> All I've asked you to do is
> provide a status report, I haven't asked you to begin disassembly. So, I
> need to know, are you planning to do exactly as I tell you to do or not?

It depends on how fast we move forward. But I will play some tomorrow
(assuming I have the time) and not open it if that is important to you. Seems
opening it and looking at some lights is a pretty safe thing.

> It's your machine and you can have whoever you want assist you with working
> on it, naturally; but this isn't something both of us can be spitballing
> ideas to you back and forth.

Sounds like you want to be in full control. That is a bit odd, but I will play
for a bit.

> One, I won't be spitballing. Two, If you take
> xx advice over yy advice because you think xx is wrong and yy is right and
> you blow a capacitor or a mosfet right off the board and into your eyeball;
> I will take no responsibility because you are not following my instructions
> exclusively, and precisely as I've instructed.

I assure you that taking of the screen holds such slight risk of that I am
willing to take the chance!

> Snit, what I'm offering to
> help you do, and teach, as I do so, is not something two or more of us can
> be doing if one of the two or more people doesn't have a solid background
> and understanding of the components you're going to be working with in
> person.

There are no such components in taking of the screen.

> It's your computer, and your ass at risk, physically if something goes
> south. Which one of us do you want assisting you? Someone who can google
> about the lights just as easily as you could have, or someone who knows you
> either need a resistor on those LEDs or a resistive current limited source
> of power - so you don't burn them the fuck out?

Looking at them is not going to burn them out.

> If you didn't know that,
> it's okay; unless you're an electronics 'geek' you wouldn't. But, that's one
> of many little things that can bite you in the ass if you go mucking around
> and you don't know what you're doing anymore so than the person guiding you
> does.

Keep in mind all I said is I would open and LOOK at the LEDs. Look.

>
> I'm not trying to insult SC - I'm simply trying to get you to understand
> that this isn't a coding session help me review my code kind of
> conversation. As I said though, you do what you like, it is your computer
> and I have no control over your decisions. I just need to know what your
> game plan is. So far, it's not doing what I've said and I won't be able to
> assist you if you intend to keep it that way.

Well, I was going to open it and look at the LEDs... not doing anything
dangerous. But if you want me to wait I will.

>
>>>> I have a TON of tools at my house, not all relevant. What tools are
>>>> you thinking of?
>>>
>>> I see. Okay then, we'll do this baby step style. Report back when
>>> you're able to give me a current condition report of the machine.
>>
>> Ah! This.
>
> Don't worry about it. I'll deal with you baby step style, as that's
> obviously the best way. When I need to know what tools you have, I'll ask
> you specifically if you have xx tool. I already told you, I'm not going to
> play back and forth bullshit games with you.

Seems to do this, esp. with "baby steps", a lot of back and forth would be
needed (not saying that is a bad thing).

> I asked about the tools, you
> got snarky;

That is your view. An odd one, really. But so be it.

> fine, I'll ask for specific tools when I determine it's
> required. If it's required. I told you, I don't have time for bullshit - so
> - when you're evasive with me, I'll skip that step and try to dumb it down
> further until we reach common ground.

I have a garage full of tools. I have no inventory. This seems of concern to
you and somehow "snarky". Very odd.

> Hopefully I don't have to drop out of
> warp so fast that you give me a migraine headache. I get enough of them
> already and that will piss me off, snit.

You do seem to have a lot of anger (no snark... a sincere concern for you).

> Assuming I can skip the step you're
> being evasive with me on. If not, I'll let you know that and yet again,
> circle the fucking airport waiting on you. Oh, this is going to be so much
> fun (sarcasm). You're already making this a chore and we haven't even
> started yet, snit.
>
>> Should have been more clear on that in other posts.
>
> Ayep. Clarity is important. Following instructions, to the letter, also very
> important. I'm not trying to get you to cause further damage, start a fire
> you likely won't be able to deal with, or cause you to get yourself hurt, or
> unalived; not by a hardware failure anyway. If anything, I'd much rather do
> the damage to you in person, myself.

You do have that as a challenge. I get it. I hope you find a way to improve.

> It wouldn't work for me to have your
> computer do it. You didn't go out of your way to provoke your computer. :)
>
>>> Snit, you've had plenty of time by the looks of your posting activity
>>> to have gotten that far. What is your present status with the machine?
>>
>> Sitting in my home, unplugged.
>
> Well, atleast it's out of storage. Tell me, when do you find the time to
> drive around with your odd sleep cycles?

I do not have a schedule of driving. Not sure what you are asking for here.

>
>>> Anyways, I'll continue to wait for you to provide me this information.
>>
>> That is fair. I will report back what I find (presumably tomorrow,
>> though as I have said, no promises... also doing repairs on a couple
>> properties).
>
> repairs on properties? Oh god, I don't even want to ask...I feel sorry for
> the property owners.

Another of your challenges I hope you some day do better with.

>
>>> Just
>>> do me one favor, stop attempting to pin the delays on me.
>>
>> Well, even when I got back into town you did not reply BUT THAT IS FINE.
>
> Oh, I'm so sorry, see, I was working, paying taxes, you know; the stuff
> you're allergic to doing. I'm not on usenet every day and I've made that
> very clear. It could be days, weeks, months before I post. I've been very
> clear about that too, and I've explained why that is and will likely
> continue to be for the foreseeable future.

The "BUT THAT IS FINE" and "I am not blaming you" was pretty clear. :)

>
>> I am not blaming you.
>
> Well, being as I've already explained quite sometime ago my odd usenet
> posting habits that have been going on for quite sometime, I don't care if
> you did try to blame me. Besides, The instructions I've given you so far are
> still the same as they've always been. You didn't need to wait on me when
> you got back in town with the machine to try to start it up and document
> what it was/wasn't doing. I've been consistently asking for that very
> information since I offered to help you in the first place.

I did tell you I was not planning on digging back into the thread.

>
>> Yes, there are delays.
>
> It's not necessary for you to repeat my own words back to me. I'm well aware
> of what I've written, and if I need to be reminded, my client is actually
> pretty good with records keeping.

No need for you to repeat things over and over and over (except for things I
specifically ask for, or if you think I missed something with TECH). You have
a habit of repetition which makes it hard for conversations to move forward.

>
>> You and I are not always available for this.
>
> So far, I've asked you to do something that would take very little of your
> time, and I've had to ask you the same thing multiple times now. I just need
> to know if you plan to do what I tell you to do or not? This isn't something
> you pick and choose the advice/suggestions you like and go with that. That
> is not how you professionally troubleshoot and repair electronics at the
> level we are going to be working on.

Sigh. Again: tomorrow I will plug it in and document what it does. This has
been covered.

>
>> I am merely noting a fact you and I do not have this as a major focus. I
> am
>> completely good with that. No attack. No snark. No "pinning". That is
>> your perspective, not mine.
>
> I enjoy your revision and attempts to weasel around your previous efforts to
> pin the blame on me, which is exactly what you did when you responded to SC.

That is your perspective on an issue I hope you some day opt to work on. Not
interested in your challenge here.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:01:18 AM MST, "Snit" wrote
<yZLqN.225757$7sbb....@fx16.iad>:

>> All I've asked you to do is
>> provide a status report, I haven't asked you to begin disassembly. So, I
>> need to know, are you planning to do exactly as I tell you to do or not?
>
> It depends on how fast we move forward. But I will play some tomorrow
> (assuming I have the time) and not open it if that is important to you. Seems
> opening it and looking at some lights is a pretty safe thing.

Getting into it is insanely harder than it should be:

https://youtu.be/-YAfu9KRn28?si=Y0K28zt0JylSjkzN

First five minutes of the video is just removing the screen... and they have
the proper cutting tool.

Oh, Apple... I like your products but you do make it hard to work with your
machines.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:daMqN.366380$83n7....@fx18.iad

Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:49 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:01:18 AM MST, "Snit" wrote
> <yZLqN.225757$7sbb....@fx16.iad>:
>
>>> All I've asked you to do is
>>> provide a status report, I haven't asked you to begin disassembly. So,
>>> I need to know, are you planning to do exactly as I tell you to do or
>>> not?
>>
>> It depends on how fast we move forward. But I will play some tomorrow
>> (assuming I have the time) and not open it if that is important to you.
>> Seems opening it and looking at some lights is a pretty safe thing.
>
> Getting into it is insanely harder than it should be:
>
> https://youtu.be/-YAfu9KRn28?si=Y0K28zt0JylSjkzN
>
> First five minutes of the video is just removing the screen... and they
> have the proper cutting tool.

Ayep. I do this shit everyday. It's old habit for me. This is just the
beginning though, the actual troubleshooting and repair if it's a hardware
issue is going to be much more 'insane' for you. :)

> Oh, Apple... I like your products but you do make it hard to work with
> your machines.

Yes, yes they do. I've said that for years, too. It's a royal fucking pain
in the ass most of the time to service Apple products.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 10:13:34 AM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0FF7C...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:daMqN.366380$83n7....@fx18.iad
> Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:49 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:01:18 AM MST, "Snit" wrote
>> <yZLqN.225757$7sbb....@fx16.iad>:
>>
>>>> All I've asked you to do is
>>>> provide a status report, I haven't asked you to begin disassembly. So,
>>>> I need to know, are you planning to do exactly as I tell you to do or
>>>> not?
>>>
>>> It depends on how fast we move forward. But I will play some tomorrow
>>> (assuming I have the time) and not open it if that is important to you.
>>> Seems opening it and looking at some lights is a pretty safe thing.
>>
>> Getting into it is insanely harder than it should be:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/-YAfu9KRn28?si=Y0K28zt0JylSjkzN
>>
>> First five minutes of the video is just removing the screen... and they
>> have the proper cutting tool.
>
> Ayep. I do this shit everyday. It's old habit for me. This is just the
> beginning though, the actual troubleshooting and repair if it's a hardware
> issue is going to be much more 'insane' for you. :)

Perhaps. Just wish Apple did this stuff better.

>
>> Oh, Apple... I like your products but you do make it hard to work with
>> your machines.
>
> Yes, yes they do. I've said that for years, too. It's a royal fucking pain
> in the ass most of the time to service Apple products.

On this we absolutely agree.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 10:13:34 AM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0FF7C...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

OK. Home for a bit and booted it. Did not time it, but after 30 minutes or so
it is still stuck here.

https://jmp.sh/lYp6rLb5

Will leave it and see if anything changes, but am doing other things and will
not be paying much attention to it.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:01:41 PM MST, "Snit" wrote
<VwWqN.68123$Vrtf....@fx39.iad>:

Was near it as it gave what looked like a kernel panic and rebooted.

[Charlie Glock]

Kernel panics are logged in the /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports folder so if you can get it to boot
the logs should give you a clue as to what is going on.
Kernel panics under Linux are usually caused by the operating system trying to access memory that
is no longer available. There many other causes as well including hardware issues.
I would assume it's similar with OSX?

Are you able to start in Safe Boot mode?
From a full power off (pull the line cord for 5 minutes just to be sure) hold the shift key while
it boots.
Does that work?


--
Charlie Glock
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms"
- Thomas Jefferson 1776

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:55:39 PM MST, "Charlie Glock" wrote
<vjXqN.46243$5Hnd....@fx03.iad>:

If I knew what was going on I might be able to get it to boot. LOL!

I knew they were logged but did not recall where. Thanks.

> Kernel panics under Linux are usually caused by the operating system trying to
> access memory that
> is no longer available. There many other causes as well including hardware
> issues.
> I would assume it's similar with OSX?

Yes.

>
> Are you able to start in Safe Boot mode?

In the past that did not work... but have not tried (have told Gremlin I will
follow his instructions and he has not instructed me to). It is the natural
next step though.

> From a full power off (pull the line cord for 5 minutes just to be sure) hold
> the shift key while
> it boots.
> Does that work?

That would do more... resetting things as well. And that might be good. I
suspect that is the next thing Gremlin will ask. If I do not hear from him I
will do it anyway.

If you are going to break your word and post in this thread, at least do it
with your common account. The games are silly.

[pothead]

Why do you feel the need to keep telling people you are away or at home?
Nobody gives a fuck.
And didn't you claim this Mac was away in a storage shed?
So how did it get "home" all of a sudden?

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 4:41:03 PM MST, "pothead" wrote
<uohlme$3sagm$3...@dont-email.me>:

Read the thread.

> Nobody gives a fuck.

Carroll is socking up and starting new threads over his focus on my life.

> And didn't you claim this Mac was away in a storage shed?

No.

> So how did it get "home" all of a sudden?

It is not a laptop but it is still not stuck in one place!

[Kelly Phillips]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024 23:41:03 -0000 (UTC), pothead <pot...@snakebite.com> wrote:

>On 2024-01-20, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> On Jan 20, 2024 at 10:13:34?AM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>><XnsB0FF7C...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:daMqN.366380$83n7....@fx18.iad
>>> Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:49 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>

>>>> On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:01:18?AM MST, "Snit" wrote

It seems to move around to wherever the story needs it to be.

Meanwhile, *he* seems to move around to wherever the story needs him to be.

It all sounds bogus to me, but make of it what you will.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:17:58 PM MST, "Snit" wrote
<aMWqN.245212$Wp_8....@fx17.iad>:

I left it. It rebooted again, who knows how many times. Just walked up to
it... it got to the login screen. Tried to enter my password and I get the
spinning wheel of death (the beachball). Unplugged the mouse and keyboard and
put a new keyboard on -- no better. Going to let it reboot with the new
keyboard, just to do.

Have not gone into recovery mode or Safe Mode or anything else other than what
I have said.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:VwWqN.68123$Vrtf....@fx39.iad Sat,
20 Jan 2024 21:01:41 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 20, 2024 at 10:13:34â\u20acŻAM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

> <XnsB0FF7C...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:daMqN.366380$83n7....@fx18.iad
>> Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:49 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>

>>> On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:01:18â\u20acŻAM MST, "Snit" wrote

>>> <yZLqN.225757$7sbb....@fx16.iad>:
>>>
>>>>> All I've asked you to do is
>>>>> provide a status report, I haven't asked you to begin disassembly.
>>>>> So, I need to know, are you planning to do exactly as I tell you to
>>>>> do or not?
>>>>
>>>> It depends on how fast we move forward. But I will play some tomorrow
>>>> (assuming I have the time) and not open it if that is important to
>>>> you. Seems opening it and looking at some lights is a pretty safe
>>>> thing.
>>>
>>> Getting into it is insanely harder than it should be:
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/-YAfu9KRn28?si=Y0K28zt0JylSjkzN
>>>
>>> First five minutes of the video is just removing the screen... and
>>> they have the proper cutting tool.
>>
>> Ayep. I do this shit everyday. It's old habit for me. This is just the
>> beginning though, the actual troubleshooting and repair if it's a
>> hardware issue is going to be much more 'insane' for you. :)
>>
>>> Oh, Apple... I like your products but you do make it hard to work with
>>> your machines.
>>
>> Yes, yes they do. I've said that for years, too. It's a royal fucking
>> pain in the ass most of the time to service Apple products.
>
> OK. Home for a bit and booted it. Did not time it, but after 30 minutes
> or so it is still stuck here.
>
> https://jmp.sh/lYp6rLb5

Hmm. You previously mentioned that sometimes it makes it to the desktop but
crashes out on you a short time later, and it occasionally doesn't get this
far? Is this correct information?

Since you haven't opened the machine previously...Is it using the original
hard drive it came with when it was new? The reason I ask, is that if I'm
remembering your previous symptoms list correctly, combined with that
picture and what you wrote it's doing indicates an issue with HDD itself, or
the cable. In your case, I'm suspecting the former; just going by what I
think I remember you telling me previously and your description with the
picture. I'd like to get some smart drive information concerning it. I've
found a url which describes the process you should take to be able to get me
that information.

There's the url:

<https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/135565/how-do-i-get-detailed-smart
-disk-information-on-os-x-mavericks-or-later>

Can you follow the instructions they outline for the smartmontools.org
utility? Before we physically open the machine, I'd really like to know what
the smart data says about the internal hard drive. You may or may not be
very surprised to learn that as an HD begins to fail as I suspect this one
is, it can cause the computer to become very unstable as I - again if i'm
remembering what you previously wrote about this correctly - have noticed
you reported it is. The symptoms fit.

Side note, you can skip if you'd like. I was troubleshooting a security
camera setup last night (it's a 4 camera rig) that would begin to boot up,
but fail to initialize any of the cameras. It would bring up a main menu and
you could move the mouse cursor, but right/left click provided no response.
The issue was a bad sata hard disk; that the dvr didn't report an issue
with. Once the drive was disconnected from the data line, the dvr would
bootup and initialize the cameras. A new hard drive has been ordered for it
after verifying with a temp replacement the dvr doesn't have a problem with
other drives, and of course, I also verified the drive I pulled from it was
a problemchild.

> Will leave it and see if anything changes, but am doing other things and
> will not be paying much attention to it.

That's fine. Most of the time, unless we're probing and using a meter and/or
a scope, we aren't really baby sitting the machine with eyeballs on it all
the time. On occasion, I've been known to do exactly as you've done here.
Sometimes, the wait and see approach is very helpful - especially for
problems that aren't always easily reproduced.

Get back to me with the smart information. If you're unable to do so as
explained in the url I shared, let me know and we will approach this from
another angle. I'd rather you did not attempt to open the machine just yet.
If the HD is bad and you want to replace it, you will obviously be taking
the system apart then; but we aren't that far along just yet.

[Gremlin]

Charlie Glock <"Charlie Glock"@localhost.com>
news:vjXqN.46243$5Hnd....@fx03.iad Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:55:39 GMT in
alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 2024-01-20, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Was near it as it gave what looked like a kernel panic and rebooted.
>>
> Kernel panics are logged in the /Library/Logs/DiagnosticReports folder
> so if you can get it to boot the logs should give you a clue as to what
> is going on. Kernel panics under Linux are usually caused by the
> operating system trying to access memory that is no longer available.
> There many other causes as well including hardware issues. I would
> assume it's similar with OSX?

I'm suspecting an hd failure in progress based on what he's shared
concerning it's actions so far. From my experience, faulty ram for example
would cause the kernel panic and reboot within a few minutes if it made it
that long. 30 minutes chilling at the loading bar screen and then kernel
panic reboot indicates HD failure in progress; it essentially finally timed
itself out waiting on the drive to complete a read/write request. And I
believe the request was a failure which caused the OS to dump and restart.
So far though, it's just a theory of mine. I will need more information from
snit to determine if I'm going down the right path or if I should be looking
elsewhere.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:aMWqN.245212$Wp_8....@fx17.iad
Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:17:58 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:01:41â\u20acŻPM MST, "Snit" wrote
> <VwWqN.68123$Vrtf....@fx39.iad>:

>
> Was near it as it gave what looked like a kernel panic and rebooted.

Okay. Good to know. thanks for keeping on top of this as you've done. Now,
with my linux boxes and my Windows rigs, I can skip the cute loading bar
screen and it'll show me the startup sequence. Mac is not a daily driver for
me, so, can your mac also do this? I would assume this would be easy peasy. If
you can get the startup screen to come up instead of the rather useless
loading bar, please do so and record video. Please provide link to video when
completed. Also, read over the other post that goes with this one; I'd really
like to know the smart condition of that drive - Especially if it's the
original drive. This is leaning more and more towards a hd failure in
progress. But, more information will be required to see if that's an accurate
theory at this point or not.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:LvXqN.151269$yEgf....@fx09.iad

Sat, 20 Jan 2024 22:08:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> In the past that did not work... but have not tried (have told Gremlin I
> will follow his instructions and he has not instructed me to). It is the
> natural next step though.

Go ahead and attempt to enter safe mode. Let me know your results. Also, if
you can access a startup screen that shares the steps the machine is taking
as it boots up instead of the loading bar please do so and record the video.
The information might be off the wall geeky foreign language to you but I
can read it. :) And it is useful for diagnostics and troubleshooting
purposes. I'd also like for you to attempt to follow the instructions for
the smartmon program as laid out in this url:
<https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/135565/how-do-i-get-detailed-smart
-disk-information-on-os-x-mavericks-or-later>

And if you're able to cp the results it provides you for the internal hard
drive on the machine. I suspect we're going to see a bad report, but, I
won't state that for one hundred percent certainty just yet; but I am
leaning towards that as being your systems problem.

>> From a full power off (pull the line cord for 5 minutes just to be
>> sure) hold the shift key while
>> it boots.
>> Does that work?
>
> That would do more... resetting things as well. And that might be good.
> I suspect that is the next thing Gremlin will ask. If I do not hear from
> him I will do it anyway.

Go ahead and do what he suggested. I'm not sure what you mean by resetting
things? If you mean a clean startup from cold condition, then yes his advice
will accomplish that and there's nothing wrong with trying it, but, I don't
think it's going to do much. It won't hurt though.
Report back your results, please.

> If you are going to break your word and post in this thread, at least do
> it with your common account. The games are silly.

Snit, Charlie isn't SC. I know you have a hard time with that, but they
really are their own individual.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:kNTqN.35504$Wbff....@fx37.iad Sat,
20 Jan 2024 17:54:24 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 20, 2024 at 10:13:34â\u20acŻAM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

> <XnsB0FF7C...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:daMqN.366380$83n7....@fx18.iad
>> Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:14:49 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>

>>> On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:01:18â\u20acŻAM MST, "Snit" wrote

>>> <yZLqN.225757$7sbb....@fx16.iad>:
>>>
>>>>> All I've asked you to do is
>>>>> provide a status report, I haven't asked you to begin disassembly.
>>>>> So, I need to know, are you planning to do exactly as I tell you to
>>>>> do or not?
>>>>
>>>> It depends on how fast we move forward. But I will play some tomorrow
>>>> (assuming I have the time) and not open it if that is important to
>>>> you. Seems opening it and looking at some lights is a pretty safe
>>>> thing.
>>>
>>> Getting into it is insanely harder than it should be:
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/-YAfu9KRn28?si=Y0K28zt0JylSjkzN
>>>
>>> First five minutes of the video is just removing the screen... and
>>> they have the proper cutting tool.
>>
>> Ayep. I do this shit everyday. It's old habit for me. This is just the
>> beginning though, the actual troubleshooting and repair if it's a
>> hardware issue is going to be much more 'insane' for you. :)
>
> Perhaps. Just wish Apple did this stuff better.

Heh. Here's the deal with Apple. They do not want you - the consumer -
repairing his/her own gear. They do not want you to take the machine to a
non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take it back to them
and continue to have an exclusive and expensive relationship with them -
hopefully for your entire life. This has always been the Apple way and
them not wanting you being able to repair your gear is never going to
change - although in the future with right to repair laws coming into
existance they may no longer have any choice in the matter.

They might be forced to allow me to purchase their proprietary ICs they
won't sell to people like me currently. We have to go thru back channels
to acquire them, because Apple doesn't want us to fix your gear. So, they
presently disable our ability to purchase certain specific ICs that are
unique to Apple and only to Apple thru the normal distribution channels.
Wihout those ICs, repairs cannot be completed for some Apple devices. Some
of us are able thanks to having had nearly life long connections with
various distributors can get around this, but only to a point. there are
some ICs I cannot get my hands on; so if I determine the gears problem is
one of those ICs specifically, I just ate the time I spent diagnosing the
machine; I'm not able to fix it and I can't recommend another shop that
could because other than the Apple store, I don't know of one; and they
won't 'fix it' either. They'll put the gear in a bin and you'll get a
refurb machine, or a new one for just a little more of your coin.

This is why I'm a PC person snit, and always will be. The PC was *never*
proprietary in the ways Apple is. I'm free to build in my own box from
scratch if I wanted to do so, and I can be compatible so long as I follow
various well known specifications. Apple reminds me of some of the non
branded illegal radio frequency scanners I've run across from time to
time. Not only is the box not marked with any manufacturer details, etc,
the internals identification codes have been stripped off of the tops of
them. You can determine what some of the components are without the codes,
but, others you really can't, and you may have trouble getting the
specifics right if you can't identify for sure what type of component it
is. Luckily, I've got component testers that can id thousands of various
components so that's not as much of an issue as it was in the past, but,
it can still be an issue. The tester obviously doesn't know every single
component known to exist.

>>
>>> Oh, Apple... I like your products but you do make it hard to work with
>>> your machines.
>>
>> Yes, yes they do. I've said that for years, too. It's a royal fucking
>> pain in the ass most of the time to service Apple products.
>
> On this we absolutely agree.

It seems we do. What you may not know though is that Apple actually goes
out of their way in the design phases to do this. It's intentional on
their part.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 8:52:01 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0FFE8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

Correct.

> They do not want you to take the machine to a
> non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take it back to them
> and continue to have an exclusive and expensive relationship with them -
> hopefully for your entire life. This has always been the Apple way

Clearly you never worked with an Apple IIe or similar system. Back then Woz
pushed to make them as user expandable as he could.

> and
> them not wanting you being able to repair your gear is never going to
> change - although in the future with right to repair laws coming into
> existance they may no longer have any choice in the matter.

Correct.

> They might be forced to allow me to purchase their proprietary ICs they
> won't sell to people like me currently. We have to go thru back channels
> to acquire them, because Apple doesn't want us to fix your gear. So, they
> presently disable our ability to purchase certain specific ICs that are
> unique to Apple and only to Apple thru the normal distribution channels.
> Wihout those ICs, repairs cannot be completed for some Apple devices. Some
> of us are able thanks to having had nearly life long connections with
> various distributors can get around this, but only to a point. there are
> some ICs I cannot get my hands on; so if I determine the gears problem is
> one of those ICs specifically, I just ate the time I spent diagnosing the
> machine; I'm not able to fix it and I can't recommend another shop that
> could because other than the Apple store, I don't know of one; and they
> won't 'fix it' either. They'll put the gear in a bin and you'll get a
> refurb machine, or a new one for just a little more of your coin.
>
> This is why I'm a PC person snit, and always will be.

Cool. I say use what you like. I certainly understand Apple products have pros
and cons. All do. I happen to tend to like Apple products... they serve me
better than the competition.

> The PC was *never*
> proprietary in the ways Apple is.

Correct.

> I'm free to build in my own box from
> scratch if I wanted to do so, and I can be compatible so long as I follow
> various well known specifications.

This is all very well known stuff. Not sure why you are going on about it.

> Apple reminds me of some of the non
> branded illegal radio frequency scanners I've run across from time to
> time. Not only is the box not marked with any manufacturer details, etc,
> the internals identification codes have been stripped off of the tops of
> them. You can determine what some of the components are without the codes,
> but, others you really can't, and you may have trouble getting the
> specifics right if you can't identify for sure what type of component it
> is. Luckily, I've got component testers that can id thousands of various
> components so that's not as much of an issue as it was in the past, but,
> it can still be an issue. The tester obviously doesn't know every single
> component known to exist.
>
>>>
>>>> Oh, Apple... I like your products but you do make it hard to work with
>>>> your machines.
>>>
>>> Yes, yes they do. I've said that for years, too. It's a royal fucking
>>> pain in the ass most of the time to service Apple products.
>>
>> On this we absolutely agree.
>
> It seems we do. What you may not know though is that Apple actually goes
> out of their way in the design phases to do this. It's intentional on
> their part.

Of course.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 8:51:59 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0FFE8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:aMWqN.245212$Wp_8....@fx17.iad
> Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:17:58 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On Jan 20, 2024 at 2:01:41â\u20acŻPM MST, "Snit" wrote
>> <VwWqN.68123$Vrtf....@fx39.iad>:
>>
>> Was near it as it gave what looked like a kernel panic and rebooted.
>
> Okay. Good to know. thanks for keeping on top of this as you've done. Now,
> with my linux boxes and my Windows rigs, I can skip the cute loading bar
> screen and it'll show me the startup sequence. Mac is not a daily driver for
> me, so, can your mac also do this?

Verbose mode. Will try it soon... right now doing other things suggested. Have
a post in process but will send when done with testing. Will be fairly
detailed... but ask anything you want.

> I would assume this would be easy peasy. If
> you can get the startup screen to come up instead of the rather useless
> loading bar, please do so and record video. Please provide link to video when
> completed. Also, read over the other post that goes with this one; I'd really
> like to know the smart condition of that drive - Especially if it's the
> original drive. This is leaning more and more towards a hd failure in
> progress. But, more information will be required to see if that's an accurate
> theory at this point or not.

Not sure it is going to let me even get that far. To test it I would suggest
Recovery Mode and a Net Boot. That bypasses the internal drive.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 8:51:59 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0FFE8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

I think it got to the desktop in the past. With current more careful testing
most I have seen is there login screen.

> Since you haven't opened the machine previously...Is it using the original
> hard drive it came with when it was new?

I have not opened this machine. I have opened other iMacs... the older ones
where you could pop the screen off with a suction cup or a (CLEAN!) plunger.

> The reason I ask, is that if I'm
> remembering your previous symptoms list correctly, combined with that
> picture and what you wrote it's doing indicates an issue with HDD itself, or
> the cable.

Given the issues with Net Booting I doubt that... but I have not tried Net
Booting in the current testing.

> In your case, I'm suspecting the former; just going by what I
> think I remember you telling me previously and your description with the
> picture. I'd like to get some smart drive information concerning it. I've
> found a url which describes the process you should take to be able to get me
> that information.
>
> There's the url:
>
> <https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/135565/how-do-i-get-detailed-smart-disk-information-on-os-x-mavericks-or-later>

Cannot get to the CLI.

>
> Can you follow the instructions they outline for the smartmontools.org
> utility? Before we physically open the machine, I'd really like to know what
> the smart data says about the internal hard drive. You may or may not be
> very surprised to learn that as an HD begins to fail as I suspect this one
> is, it can cause the computer to become very unstable as I - again if i'm
> remembering what you previously wrote about this correctly - have noticed
> you reported it is. The symptoms fit.

With the Net Boot issues that seems unlikely to me... but again want to retest
and be more careful this time.

>
> Side note, you can skip if you'd like. I was troubleshooting a security
> camera setup last night (it's a 4 camera rig) that would begin to boot up,
> but fail to initialize any of the cameras. It would bring up a main menu and
> you could move the mouse cursor, but right/left click provided no response.
> The issue was a bad sata hard disk; that the dvr didn't report an issue
> with. Once the drive was disconnected from the data line, the dvr would
> bootup and initialize the cameras. A new hard drive has been ordered for it
> after verifying with a temp replacement the dvr doesn't have a problem with
> other drives, and of course, I also verified the drive I pulled from it was
> a problemchild.

I have had to replace many hard drives over the years. When working for the
Foundation where I served 200 schools / 100 United Way agencies we had the
worst luck with drives. Never seen so many go bad so quickly. Of course have
seen others since then.

>> Will leave it and see if anything changes, but am doing other things and
>> will not be paying much attention to it.
>
> That's fine. Most of the time, unless we're probing and using a meter and/or
> a scope, we aren't really baby sitting the machine with eyeballs on it all
> the time.

Glad you do not expect me to!

> On occasion, I've been known to do exactly as you've done here.
> Sometimes, the wait and see approach is very helpful - especially for
> problems that aren't always easily reproduced.

It did get to the login screen... and I was able to type a few characters (so
USB is at least somewhat working). The machine went into the beachball though.
Did try the other keyboard. It allowed me to delete the couple characters but
I could not type with the beachball. After several minutes I gave up.

>
> Get back to me with the smart information. If you're unable to do so as
> explained in the url I shared, let me know and we will approach this from
> another angle. I'd rather you did not attempt to open the machine just yet.
> If the HD is bad and you want to replace it, you will obviously be taking
> the system apart then; but we aren't that far along just yet.

Makes sense.

[Snit]

On Jan 20, 2024 at 8:52:00 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB0FFE8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:LvXqN.151269$yEgf....@fx09.iad
> Sat, 20 Jan 2024 22:08:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> In the past that did not work... but have not tried (have told Gremlin I
>> will follow his instructions and he has not instructed me to). It is the
>> natural next step though.
>
> Go ahead and attempt to enter safe mode. Let me know your results.

Going to be specific here...

1) Turned it off.
2) Hit power button.
3) Immediately held down the shift key (the left one if that matters).

No dice. Progress bar sat there for five minutes. Used a weight on the shift
key and walked away.

Tried again but this time held the shift key before turning the power on (not
the "by the book" way, but I have seen it work).

No dice. Progress bar sat there for five minutes. Used a weight on the shift
key and walked away.

Repeated the process with another keyboard. No mouse has been connected.

Same results. No sign if it doing anything.

(Technically when I say no "dice", there was a "die" involved... I used it and
a tape holder as the weight!)

My next recommendation would Command+R to try to get to Recovery Mode.

> Also, if
> you can access a startup screen that shares the steps the machine is taking
> as it boots up instead of the loading bar please do so and record the video.

Verbose Mode.

Command+V as you boot.

No response. Tried the other keyboard. No luck. One is not a keyboard designed
for Macs, so actually tried it twice -- once with Windows key and once with
Control.

As if the keyboards are doing nothing... but when I did see it boot once I did
try to enter my password... and got a couple letters in before it went to the
spinning wheel (I left that detail out before, my apologies).

> The information might be off the wall geeky foreign language to you but I
> can read it. :) And it is useful for diagnostics and troubleshooting
> purposes. I'd also like for you to attempt to follow the instructions for
> the smartmon program as laid out in this url:
> <https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/135565/how-do-i-get-detailed-smart-disk-information-on-os-x-mavericks-or-later>

Cannot get to a UNIX prompt.

> And if you're able to cp the results it provides you for the internal hard
> drive on the machine.

If USB is not fully working, as I think is the case, it will be hard to cp to
an external drive.

> I suspect we're going to see a bad report, but, I
> won't state that for one hundred percent certainty just yet; but I am
> leaning towards that as being your systems problem.
>
>>> From a full power off (pull the line cord for 5 minutes just to be
>>> sure) hold the shift key while
>>> it boots.
>>> Does that work?
>>
>> That would do more... resetting things as well. And that might be good.
>> I suspect that is the next thing Gremlin will ask. If I do not hear from
>> him I will do it anyway.
>
> Go ahead and do what he suggested.

Again to be clear:

1) Unplugged and waited five min. Had nothing plugged in at this time. No
keyboard, etc.
2) Plugged it into power.
3) Did the Shift key thing I did above (using the same weight system to hold
the key down).

No change. Did not try the second keyboard.

> I'm not sure what you mean by resetting
> things?

When you unplug the power you reset the System Management Controller.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102605

They say 15 seconds. The five minutes seems a bit silly with the time... but I
did it.

Also did wait a few second after plugging it in.

I should be clear: when I say unplugging it... I mean the power from the back
of the machine, not just the cord from the wall.

In any case, no change. Still not booting.

Just to be safe, moved the iMac to a different circuit... using a different
plug. Tried to boot into Safe Mode. Nope. Only tried one keyboard. Tried a
different power cable. Still no Safe Mode. Brought the iMac back to where it
was.

I suggest Recovery Mode next... with the goal being to test the hard drive (as
you want to do) and to do a Net Boot.

Have not tined all of this, and there was some "down time" (did not do each
test right after the other). Not a complaint... but about an hour of testing
was done. Just keeping rough track.

> If you mean a clean startup from cold condition, then yes his advice
> will accomplish that and there's nothing wrong with trying it, but, I don't
> think it's going to do much. It won't hurt though.
> Report back your results, please.

If you have any questions on this I will do my best to reply.

>
>> If you are going to break your word and post in this thread, at least do
>> it with your common account. The games are silly.
>
> Snit, Charlie isn't SC. I know you have a hard time with that, but they
> really are their own individual.

If he is not he sure goes out of his way to act like one of Carroll's socks.

Side note: Good to see this side of you. Basic civility. Hopefully this tone
can continue in other discussions where I have not agreed to do as you say.

[pothead]

Yep.
Wow! AI has really advanced these days. Mac's can actually grow real legs and walk around.
What will be next?

[pothead]

I agree with you that it has the symptoms of HD failure.
Ocam's razor and all that stuff. HD failure rate, for spinners anyway, is much higher than chip
fail assuming noting was touched inside.
From past experience if it's the boot drive failing many symptoms are possible including of course
hanging in the boot process.
With secondary drives the symptoms are usually mysterious hangs or pauses that happen
intermittently when the controller queries the sick drive. Assuming the box is able to boot or get
into a BIOS screen looking at S.M.A.R.T data usually diagnoses this one.
Assuming oif course the sick drive is sick but not dead yet.

I would try safety mode or whatever Apple calls it (I'm not an Apple person) and see what it does.
This way he can poke around a little and gather information which may offer a clue to what is wrong.

[Snit]

Tell me you know nothing of Macs without telling me you know nothing of
Macs.

>
> I would try safety mode or whatever Apple calls it (I'm not an Apple
> person) and see what it does.
> This way he can poke around a little and gather information which may
> offer a clue to what is wrong.
>
>
>
>



--

[pothead]

I never said I know anything about Apple products.
I expect a tech person like you to be able to extrapolate or translate basic trouble shooting
advice from the Linux / Windows PC platform to the Mac platform.
I suppose I've asked too much of you snit.

[Snit]

On Jan 21, 2024 at 9:24:00 AM MST, "pothead" wrote
<uojgf0$8777$1...@dont-email.me>:

> On 2024-01-21, Snit <Brock.M...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> pothead <pot...@snakebite.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with you that it has the symptoms of HD failure.
>>> Ocam's razor and all that stuff. HD failure rate, for spinners anyway, is
>>> much higher than chip
>>> fail assuming noting was touched inside.
>>> From past experience if it's the boot drive failing many symptoms are
>>> possible including of course
>>> hanging in the boot process.
>>> With secondary drives the symptoms are usually mysterious hangs or pauses
>>> that happen
>>> intermittently when the controller queries the sick drive. Assuming the
>>> box is able to boot or get
>>> into a BIOS screen looking at S.M.A.R.T data usually diagnoses this one.
>>> Assuming oif course the sick drive is sick but not dead yet.
>>
>> Tell me you know nothing of Macs without telling me you know nothing of
>> Macs.
>>>
>>> I would try safety mode or whatever Apple calls it (I'm not an Apple
>>> person) and see what it does.
>>> This way he can poke around a little and gather information which may
>>> offer a clue to what is wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> I never said I know anything about Apple products.

The above is you writing about my iMac, including its BIOS. LOL!

[pothead]

I gave you general diagnostic troubleshooting information.
It's not my fault that you are unable to apply the same information to EFI.
I left that part up to you, an obvious mistake.
Not that it matters though because this iMac story of yours is made up and keeps growing legs as
you keep needing to move the goal posts.
It's just another one of your lies snit.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:mA2rN.43641$6ePe....@fx42.iad Sun,
21 Jan 2024 06:11:30 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 20, 2024 at 8:52:00槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB0FFE8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

>
>> Go ahead and attempt to enter safe mode. Let me know your results.
>
> Going to be specific here...
>
> 1) Turned it off.
> 2) Hit power button.
> 3) Immediately held down the shift key (the left one if that matters).
>
> No dice. Progress bar sat there for five minutes. Used a weight on the
> shift key and walked away.
>
> Tried again but this time held the shift key before turning the power on
> (not the "by the book" way, but I have seen it work).
>
> No dice. Progress bar sat there for five minutes. Used a weight on the
> shift key and walked away.

Yea, I didn't think that was going to be of much use. Snit, I need to know
specific answers to some questions.

Is the machine using the original hard drive it shipped with as far as you
know?

SC seems to recall you having a technician look at this machine before and
told you the mb was the issue? I think I remember you mentioning you thought
the mb was the problem previously; what made you determine that?

Is this Apple Silicon or Intel?

SC asked you if the machine had been slowing down on you previously; he
found a post from you where you reported that it would literally appear to
freeze up on you, and then after about 30 seconds or so, act is if nothing
was wrong. Is this correct?

Have you tried to use the netboot feature? If so, did it actually complete
the process? I can think of a reason it might not with a HD physically
connected that's having a problem. It's similar to PXE, and still relies on
all of the present hardware working and cooperating with each other. If the
what I suspect is a failing HD has a controller issue contributing to the
failure (or it's a logic issue with the firmware due to too many bad sectors
and no place to remap) this too can bork your efforts to succesfully
complete the process, or if you are succesful, maintain system stability.
PCs routinely probe the hardware bus to check in with the hardware it
detected during post. I suspect your imac does something similar. With a PC
if a hardware device unexpectedly fails, the system may not be able to
recover from it; resulting on modern OSes as a kernel panic/blue/blackscreen
of death and system reboot if it's configured to auto restart.

Sometimes, you could have a seriously fuxored driver being loaded at some
point which can also cause kernel panics, but we can rule this one out due
to the fact the system isn't stable if it's booting on it's own internal or
not. It's not going to be loading the same identical drivers likely from the
network image you'd use on netboot. And if you did a system restore back to
factory, it would have the original drivers again.

It's not actually hanging on you going thru post right? The picture you
shared shows it passed post, but, it isn't making it thru software
initialization/OS load.

> Repeated the process with another keyboard. No mouse has been connected.
>
> Same results. No sign if it doing anything.

I wouldn't have expected any change with a keyboard/mouse swap. That's not
the issue.

> My next recommendation would Command+R to try to get to Recovery Mode.

I don't think that's going to help. Yea, after confirming what Recovery mode
actually is and does, I'm pretty sure it's useless. It would attempt to
restore onto the HD i still suspect has an issue.

>> Also, if
>> you can access a startup screen that shares the steps the machine is
>> taking as it boots up instead of the loading bar please do so and
>> record the video.
>
> Verbose Mode.
>
> Command+V as you boot.
>
> No response. Tried the other keyboard. No luck. One is not a keyboard
> designed for Macs, so actually tried it twice -- once with Windows key
> and once with Control.

Interesting...

> As if the keyboards are doing nothing... but when I did see it boot once
> I did try to enter my password... and got a couple letters in before it
> went to the spinning wheel (I left that detail out before, my
> apologies).

I see. doesn't look like it had initialized USB human input by the time you
tried to enter verbose mode. Is there not a key you can press while the
loading bar is present to see those details? I can on any of my machines
here. I don't need to tell them before hand I want to see the 'verbose mode'
screen. I like that...verbose mode...It's also possible you have an issue
with the USB controller IC. this is something that can be diagnosed; the bad
news is, if it is the IC, you can't 'fix' it; you'll have to replace it.
And, it's a surface mount little bastard. Now, it's been my personal
experience that when the USB controller goes tits up, the entire usb
platform is dead in the water; it doesn't work then stop working then work
again. I'm not going to say that's impossible, just that I've never seen a
machine with that issue doing it.

Let's rule out any possible hardware issues we can detect prior to opening
it first though. We'll start with the most often failed component causing
such issues; the HD.

Snag a copy of an MXLinux ISO please and write to to a USB stick. As far as
I know, your imac can boot from a USB stick with MXLinux present on it. If
it will, we can use that to check the condition of the internal hard drive
from SMARTS pov.

>> I'm not sure what you mean by resetting
>> things?
>
> When you unplug the power you reset the System Management Controller.

I'd say you reset everything that stored temp data once the caps are drained
down far enough. that's what happens when you unplug the power. Well, what's
actually happening. It's why the delay before you plug it back in is
suggested. You can speed the process up by unplugging it and trying to turn
it on. It'll consume what's left in most of the caps attempting to comply
with your start request. You won't see it do squat, but it did; it drained
the residual power off the caps.

> I should be clear: when I say unplugging it... I mean the power from the
> back of the machine, not just the cord from the wall.

Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral line is
seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.

> I suggest Recovery Mode next... with the goal being to test the hard
> drive (as you want to do) and to do a Net Boot.

Does recovery mode have smart display? I didn't see that mentioned in what I
read about it. Disk utility does not seem to have the ability to access
smart data either...Recovery mode is going to boot from the internal hard
drive; it's on another partition. So if the drive has an issue, you can't
currently trust your recovery mode; it's running from suspect media.

Your instructions for getting into these modes indicate your imac is intel.
Is this correct? If so, it can be booted from that mxlinux iso; which can
further assist us in troubleshooting. Specifically, I want to know what the
condition of the HD smart data is.

> If you have any questions on this I will do my best to reply.

As you can see, I have several. Please answer as best as you can with as
much detail as you can. The more detail you can provide, the better.

> Side note: Good to see this side of you. Basic civility. Hopefully this
> tone can continue in other discussions where I have not agreed to do as
> you say.

As I told you, I can't force you to do anything you don't want to do. I can
just warn you about doing it the way you are. the final decision is upto
you.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:EyerN.68009$GX69....@fx46.iad Sun,

You're nitpicking. You know what he meant by BIOS, snit. :)

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:O%0rN.118298$q3F7....@fx45.iad

Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:24:14 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> Clearly you never worked with an Apple IIe or similar system.

ROFL.

This style?

<https://www.oldcomputr.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/apple_iie.jpg>

or this one?
<https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/77/22/product-7772
2.jpg>

And this ugly bastard of a monitor was the first one I actually used:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/5b/48/3e5b48a414d552a8919288b46ac4dcf7.jpg

The Apple 2e was the first actual computer I ever sat in front of that had a
screen and a keyboard - starting in Kindergarten all the way to the 2nd
grade and we finally got the Apple with the extended keyboard and the built
in floppy drive in the side of it; then we eventually got the Apple2gs along
with some of the mac classics. I've attended alot of schools and most of
their computers was all Apple products. I got a Tandy by the time i was in
3rd grade to use at home. It wasn't Apple and it wasn't PC, or commodore
(ehh. they were okay); We had those graphics fancy Apple computers when I
was in high school, but the alternative school was all PC based; Intel
Pentium rigs at the time - mostly gateway2000s (you remember those? lol) voc
was mostly PC except for the 'desktop media publishing' classes; those were
all the high end for the time Apples (circa 95-96ish) I admit, the PCs
weren't really capable of doing as good a job as the Apples could with that
task back then. Software was superior for the time on the Apple.

FFS snit, I learned logos on the Apple2e. And I played my first game of
Oregon trail on it, along with doing my first birthday and xmas cards with
printshop by borderbrund; all with Apples and apple image writer printers
(yea snit, the dot matrix ones - in middle school we had the 'color'
versions of those image writers); which was really just using multi colored
ink bands with the same print head. But it was superior in all respects to
my 9pin black only Tandy dot matrix printer I had at home.

The previous one was an Altair; it didn't have a screen or a keyboard. It
had LEDs and depending on which ones were lit in what order told you what
your program was doing or, heh, wasn't. It looked like this:
https://arcteaching.readthedocs.io/en/latest/_images/Altair_8800.jpg

See? I learned to code, initially, using one of those. <G>

> Back then Woz pushed to make them as user expandable as he could.

He was competing with Commodore, Amiga, Tandy, etc, at the time. That's why.
Once we leave the world of the Apple2, we get closer and closer to the
completely walled off Apple Garden we have now. The other computer systems
didn't go this route.

> This is all very well known stuff. Not sure why you are going on about
> it.

It's well known to us. That doesn't mean it's well known to everyone here.
Not everyone has the same levels of interest in computers, snit.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:vp1rN.88151$JLvf....@fx44.iad Sun,
21 Jan 2024 04:51:39 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 20, 2024 at 8:51:59槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB0FFE8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

>
> Not sure it is going to let me even get that far. To test it I would
> suggest Recovery Mode and a Net Boot. That bypasses the internal drive.

Hmm.

If it's not stored on the internal HD as another partition, it would have to
be stored in the machines own firmware; and I don't think Apple did that.

From what I've read, Recovery mode is a partition on the internal hard
drive. So it would still be using the internal hard drive to boot from.
https://www.macworld.com/article/673061/how-to-use-mac-recovery-mode.html

MacOS Recovery (often referred to as Mac Recovery Mode) was introducmed back
in 2010 with OS X 10.7 Lion. This Recovery HD partition contains the latest
version of the macOS you installed on your Mac and makes it possible to
troubleshoot issues with your Mac.

Net Boot bypasses the internal drive as far as booting off of it, but it
doesn't stop the system hardware from probing the HDs controller because it
responded to 'are you there' query during POST. It's still going to probe;
to check in and if the hd controller isn't able to respond in a 'reasonable'
time, you'll crash and burn again.

Please attempt to boot your intel powered rig from the mxlinux iso. Let me
know your results.

[Snit]

On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:09 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:O%0rN.118298$q3F7....@fx45.iad
> Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:24:14 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> Clearly you never worked with an Apple IIe or similar system.
>
> ROFL.
>
> This style?
>
> <https://www.oldcomputr.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/apple_iie.jpg>
>
> or this one?
> <https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/77/22/product-77722.jpg>
>
> And this ugly bastard of a monitor was the first one I actually used:
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/5b/48/3e5b48a414d552a8919288b46ac4dcf7.jpg
>
> The Apple 2e was the first actual computer I ever sat in front of that had a
> screen and a keyboard

No mouse. I remember when you were so proud you did things on computers with
no mice. It was funny.

But I was in response to this:

-----

They do not want you to take the machine to a
non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take it back to them
and continue to have an exclusive and expensive relationship with them -
hopefully for your entire life. This has always been the Apple way

-----

There was a time Apple DID make their machines expandable -- though admittedly
that was a long time ago.

https://www.myoldcomputers.com/museum/computers/appleiigs_woz.htm
-----
Unlike the Apple IIc, the IIgs was expandable through add on boards, a return
to the earlier Wozniak philosophy to make the Apple an open architecture. As
with the earlier Apple II's and IIe's the top of the CPU unit is removable
allowing access to the 7 expansion slots inside.
-----

> - starting in Kindergarten all the way to the 2nd
> grade and we finally got the Apple with the extended keyboard and the built
> in floppy drive in the side of it; then we eventually got the Apple2gs along
> with some of the mac classics.

I had a Woz edition IIgs.. but it was stolen. Sigh.

> I've attended alot of schools

So you should know "alot" is not a word. :)

> and most of
> their computers was all Apple products. I got a Tandy by the time i was in
> 3rd grade to use at home. It wasn't Apple and it wasn't PC, or commodore
> (ehh. they were okay); We had those graphics fancy Apple computers when I
> was in high school, but the alternative school was all PC based; Intel
> Pentium rigs at the time - mostly gateway2000s (you remember those? lol) voc
> was mostly PC except for the 'desktop media publishing' classes; those were
> all the high end for the time Apples (circa 95-96ish) I admit, the PCs
> weren't really capable of doing as good a job as the Apples could with that
> task back then. Software was superior for the time on the Apple.
>
> FFS snit, I learned logos on the Apple2e. And I played my first game of
> Oregon trail on it, along with doing my first birthday and xmas cards with
> printshop by borderbrund; all with Apples and apple image writer printers
> (yea snit, the dot matrix ones - in middle school we had the 'color'
> versions of those image writers); which was really just using multi colored
> ink bands with the same print head. But it was superior in all respects to
> my 9pin black only Tandy dot matrix printer I had at home.

What does any of this have to do with your claim:
-----

They do not want you to take the machine to a
non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take it back to them
and continue to have an exclusive and expensive relationship with them -
hopefully for your entire life. This has always been the Apple way

-----

For what it is worth, while you were playing at home, I was working in labs
and running a cluster of computer labs... IIe systems mostly, but also had
UNIX dummy terminals and DOS machines. And later Macs and Windows systems.

> The previous one was an Altair; it didn't have a screen or a keyboard. It
> had LEDs and depending on which ones were lit in what order told you what
> your program was doing or, heh, wasn't. It looked like this:
> https://arcteaching.readthedocs.io/en/latest/_images/Altair_8800.jpg
>
> See? I learned to code, initially, using one of those. <G>
>
>> Back then Woz pushed to make them as user expandable as he could.
>
> He was competing with Commodore, Amiga, Tandy, etc, at the time. That's why.

It was also his view of how things should be... though he has written that is
more nuanced than some say.

> Once we leave the world of the Apple2, we get closer and closer to the
> completely walled off Apple Garden we have now. The other computer systems
> didn't go this route.

Sure. I was just speaking of your claim:
-----

They do not want you to take the machine to a
non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take it back to them
and continue to have an exclusive and expensive relationship with them -
hopefully for your entire life. This has always been the Apple way

-----

The last sentence... it has not always been the Apple way (though to be fair
it has been a long time now).

>
>> This is all very well known stuff. Not sure why you are going on about
>> it.
>
> It's well known to us. That doesn't mean it's well known to everyone here.
> Not everyone has the same levels of interest in computers, snit.

That is fair... but you do tend to go on a lot... and for those not interested
in computers I doubt they read it.

Still, here you focused on the tech FAR more than your ego or on any attack
against me. I should not ride your ass on that. I picked a nit in your
comment. I am correct but whatever.

[Snit]

On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:vp1rN.88151$JLvf....@fx44.iad Sun,
> 21 Jan 2024 04:51:39 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 20, 2024 at 8:51:59â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB0FFE8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>> Not sure it is going to let me even get that far. To test it I would
>> suggest Recovery Mode and a Net Boot. That bypasses the internal drive.
>
> Hmm.
>
> If it's not stored on the internal HD as another partition, it would have to
> be stored in the machines own firmware; and I don't think Apple did that.

There is some level of Recovery Mode that is in firmware, and a net book boots
from the Internet.

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-macos-recovery-on-an-intel-based-mac-mchl338cf9a8/mac

I am suggesting the disk tools to check the drive. I was thinking you could
boot from the 'net but that is not the case. But I could try installing on an
external drive (not sure I have a free one right now with enough space, but I
can check). But the disk tools seem a wise direction to go to test your idea
of a bad drive.

>
> From what I've read, Recovery mode is a partition on the internal hard
> drive.

I do not think so.

> So it would still be using the internal hard drive to boot from.
> https://www.macworld.com/article/673061/how-to-use-mac-recovery-mode.html

Where are you seeing that it is on the drive?

>
> MacOS Recovery (often referred to as Mac Recovery Mode) was introducmed back
> in 2010 with OS X 10.7 Lion. This Recovery HD partition contains the latest
> version of the macOS you installed on your Mac and makes it possible to
> troubleshoot issues with your Mac.

The drive contains a copy of the OS... but the Recovery Mode itself I do not
think is on the drive.

>
> Net Boot bypasses the internal drive as far as booting off of it, but it
> doesn't stop the system hardware from probing the HDs controller because it
> responded to 'are you there' query during POST. It's still going to probe;
> to check in and if the hd controller isn't able to respond in a 'reasonable'
> time, you'll crash and burn again.
>
> Please attempt to boot your intel powered rig from the mxlinux iso. Let me
> know your results.

Will do... but if I do not get to it soon be aware I will be MIA for a while
again. I think I can get to it before I get tied up in other things.

[Snit]

On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

I know my Mac does not have a BIOS.

[Snit]

On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:07 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:mA2rN.43641$6ePe....@fx42.iad Sun,
> 21 Jan 2024 06:11:30 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 20, 2024 at 8:52:00â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB0FFE8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> Go ahead and attempt to enter safe mode. Let me know your results.
>>
>> Going to be specific here...
>>
>> 1) Turned it off.
>> 2) Hit power button.
>> 3) Immediately held down the shift key (the left one if that matters).
>>
>> No dice. Progress bar sat there for five minutes. Used a weight on the
>> shift key and walked away.
>>
>> Tried again but this time held the shift key before turning the power on
>> (not the "by the book" way, but I have seen it work).
>>
>> No dice. Progress bar sat there for five minutes. Used a weight on the
>> shift key and walked away.
>
> Yea, I didn't think that was going to be of much use. Snit, I need to know
> specific answers to some questions.
>
> Is the machine using the original hard drive it shipped with as far as you
> know?

Yes. Certain it is. Well, certain it is what is in the machine... not really
using it in any meaningful sense. :)

But, yes, that is the drive in the machine.

> SC seems to recall you having a technician look at this machine before and
> told you the mb was the issue?

Carroll makes up many stories, especially about me. That is not in any way
true. I have had other Macs where the motherboard was replaced, and it was
effective (other than the tech did not put a serial number on one of the Macs
and I had to get that fixed later).

> I think I remember you mentioning you thought
> the mb was the problem previously; what made you determine that?

Motherboard or something of the sort. Hardware... and something rather major.

>
> Is this Apple Silicon or Intel?

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP759?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

Intel. It is a 2017 machine!

>
> SC asked you if the machine had been slowing down on you previously; he
> found a post from you where you reported that it would literally appear to
> freeze up on you, and then after about 30 seconds or so, act is if nothing
> was wrong. Is this correct?

Yes. I do not recall a spinning ball during that time but I am not certain.

>
> Have you tried to use the netboot feature?

Tried Net Recovery.... But do not recall details. Best to repeat and be
specific instead of guessing and getting details wrong. I did say Net Boot
before. That is an error. My apologies.

> If so, did it actually complete
> the process? I can think of a reason it might not with a HD physically
> connected that's having a problem. It's similar to PXE, and still relies on
> all of the present hardware working and cooperating with each other. If the
> what I suspect is a failing HD has a controller issue contributing to the
> failure (or it's a logic issue with the firmware due to too many bad sectors
> and no place to remap) this too can bork your efforts to succesfully
> complete the process, or if you are succesful, maintain system stability.
> PCs routinely probe the hardware bus to check in with the hardware it
> detected during post. I suspect your imac does something similar. With a PC
> if a hardware device unexpectedly fails, the system may not be able to
> recover from it; resulting on modern OSes as a kernel panic/blue/blackscreen
> of death and system reboot if it's configured to auto restart.

OK.

> Sometimes, you could have a seriously fuxored driver being loaded at some
> point which can also cause kernel panics, but we can rule this one out due
> to the fact the system isn't stable if it's booting on it's own internal or
> not. It's not going to be loading the same identical drivers likely from the
> network image you'd use on netboot. And if you did a system restore back to
> factory, it would have the original drivers again.
>
> It's not actually hanging on you going thru post right? The picture you
> shared shows it passed post, but, it isn't making it thru software
> initialization/OS load.

I think this is correct.

>
>> Repeated the process with another keyboard. No mouse has been connected.
>>
>> Same results. No sign if it doing anything.
>
> I wouldn't have expected any change with a keyboard/mouse swap. That's not
> the issue.

Bad external devices can cause issues.

>
>> My next recommendation would Command+R to try to get to Recovery Mode.
>
> I don't think that's going to help. Yea, after confirming what Recovery mode
> actually is and does, I'm pretty sure it's useless. It would attempt to
> restore onto the HD i still suspect has an issue.

I am speaking of testing the drive. Was also thinking of booting from the net
but that is not an option. My mistake.

>
>
>>> Also, if
>>> you can access a startup screen that shares the steps the machine is
>>> taking as it boots up instead of the loading bar please do so and
>>> record the video.
>>
>> Verbose Mode.
>>
>> Command+V as you boot.
>>
>> No response. Tried the other keyboard. No luck. One is not a keyboard
>> designed for Macs, so actually tried it twice -- once with Windows key
>> and once with Control.
>
> Interesting...
>
>> As if the keyboards are doing nothing... but when I did see it boot once
>> I did try to enter my password... and got a couple letters in before it
>> went to the spinning wheel (I left that detail out before, my
>> apologies).
>
> I see. doesn't look like it had initialized USB human input by the time you
> tried to enter verbose mode. Is there not a key you can press while the
> loading bar is present to see those details?

I do not believe so.

> I can on any of my machines
> here. I don't need to tell them before hand I want to see the 'verbose mode'
> screen.

I assume you are familiar with that term.

> I like that...verbose mode...It's also possible you have an issue
> with the USB controller IC. this is something that can be diagnosed; the bad
> news is, if it is the IC, you can't 'fix' it; you'll have to replace it.
> And, it's a surface mount little bastard. Now, it's been my personal
> experience that when the USB controller goes tits up, the entire usb
> platform is dead in the water; it doesn't work then stop working then work
> again. I'm not going to say that's impossible, just that I've never seen a
> machine with that issue doing it.

Whatever it is doing is weirdly inconsistent. Maybe it has the computer
version of my atypical dysautonomia. :)

>
> Let's rule out any possible hardware issues we can detect prior to opening
> it first though. We'll start with the most often failed component causing
> such issues; the HD.
>
> Snag a copy of an MXLinux ISO please and write to to a USB stick. As far as
> I know, your imac can boot from a USB stick with MXLinux present on it. If
> it will, we can use that to check the condition of the internal hard drive
> from SMARTS pov.

Been a while since I created such a disk, but I am sure I can do that. Well,
before I used Puppy and Mint and maybe others but not MXLinux that I recall.
Sure it is much the same.

I will do that... but will have to fit it into work the next couple of days.
By the end of the week I will not be available for this for a while. Sorry for
the coming and going... and sincerely appreciate your efforts here.

>
>
>>> I'm not sure what you mean by resetting
>>> things?
>>
>> When you unplug the power you reset the System Management Controller.
>
> I'd say you reset everything that stored temp data once the caps are drained
> down far enough. that's what happens when you unplug the power. Well, what's
> actually happening. It's why the delay before you plug it back in is
> suggested. You can speed the process up by unplugging it and trying to turn
> it on. It'll consume what's left in most of the caps attempting to comply
> with your start request. You won't see it do squat, but it did; it drained
> the residual power off the caps.
>
>> I should be clear: when I say unplugging it... I mean the power from the
>> back of the machine, not just the cord from the wall.
>
> Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral line is
> seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.

I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe there is a
little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems odd... but did have
it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I see where you are coming
from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden switch or the like it cannot
matter.

>
>> I suggest Recovery Mode next... with the goal being to test the hard
>> drive (as you want to do) and to do a Net Boot.
>
> Does recovery mode have smart display?

Not sure what Smart Display is. You mean SMART info on the drive? I know there
is are the DISK tools. If so I am pretty sure the Disk Utility has this.

> I didn't see that mentioned in what I
> read about it. Disk utility does not seem to have the ability to access
> smart data either...

It is listed here:

https://support.apple.com/et-ee/guide/disk-utility/dskutl1005/mac

> Recovery mode is going to boot from the internal hard
> drive;

I do not believe this is correct but been some time since I used it. I think
it works even with a new drive though.

> it's on another partition. So if the drive has an issue, you can't
> currently trust your recovery mode; it's running from suspect media.
>
> Your instructions for getting into these modes indicate your imac is intel.

Yes. It is from 2017. All Macs were Intel in that era.

https://support.apple.com/kb/SP759?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

> Is this correct? If so, it can be booted from that mxlinux iso; which can
> further assist us in troubleshooting. Specifically, I want to know what the
> condition of the HD smart data is.

I will get MXLinux but for now did try Command+R. Could not get it to do
anything on either keyboard. Not sure I will be able to boot from an external
drive if USB is being largely ignored.

>
>> If you have any questions on this I will do my best to reply.
>
> As you can see, I have several. Please answer as best as you can with as
> much detail as you can. The more detail you can provide, the better.

Sure.

>
>> Side note: Good to see this side of you. Basic civility. Hopefully this
>> tone can continue in other discussions where I have not agreed to do as
>> you say.
>
> As I told you, I can't force you to do anything you don't want to do. I can
> just warn you about doing it the way you are. the final decision is upto
> you.

Not sure where that comes from. I am not seeing any signs of pressuring or in
any way being harassed or whatever in these messages.

[pothead]

And he also knows that my Apple experience is basically zero. But snit has to blow smoke in order
to take the focus off the possibility this is another made up story of his.

BTW, did anybody run a Google Lens on that image he posted?
Asking for a friend.

[Snit]

On Jan 22, 2024 at 7:54:36 AM MST, "pothead" wrote
<uolvjc$p1q6$1...@dont-email.me>:

Tell me you know nothing about Macs by telling me you know nothing of Macs.

You pretended you were not talking about a Mac *as* you wrote about an iMac.
That is funny.

>
> BTW, did anybody run a Google Lens on that image he posted?
> Asking for a friend.

Try tineye as well.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:P6orN.290228$xHn7....@fx14.iad
Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:41:51 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:07槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

>
> Yes. Certain it is. Well, certain it is what is in the machine... not
> really using it in any meaningful sense. :)
>
> But, yes, that is the drive in the machine.
>
>> SC seems to recall you having a technician look at this machine before
>> and told you the mb was the issue?
>

> Motherboard or something of the sort. Hardware... and something rather
> major.

I meant to ask this earlier...Are you using usb wireless devices or are they
hard wired? Would it be possible if you're using usb ones to switch over to
hard wired versions?

>>
>> Is this Apple Silicon or Intel?
>
> https://support.apple.com/kb/SP759?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US
>
> Intel. It is a 2017 machine!

Great. I've seen several mac sites researching more about the machine you
said is broken - which stated it might be Apple silicon, though. Remember,
I'm not an Apple person. I just fix them when I encounter a busted one; and
since that's a pcb level component issue most of the time, it doesn't
require me to learn much about Apple specifically. electronics are
electronics. Seen a cap, you've seen em all.. etc. I don't use them, don't
care that much about them, couldn't tell you which model was what or when it
was released beyond the machines I worked with during school. I'd had more
than I wanted of Apple long before then.

FFS, I failed a typing class (for not using the home row; My fingers float
across the keyboard) because the keyboard layout was a bit different from
the computer I had at home by then; a computer I was on much more frequently
than the ones at school. Yes, they both had QWERTY keyboards; but there was
enough of a difference with key spacing, touch response etc that I was more
familiar with the one at home and was more efficient using it. And like I
said, I wasn't doing it home row as many of us were taught. My fingers
couldn't reach that far anyway. :)

>> SC asked you if the machine had been slowing down on you previously; he
>> found a post from you where you reported that it would literally appear
>> to freeze up on you, and then after about 30 seconds or so, act is if
>> nothing was wrong. Is this correct?
>
> Yes. I do not recall a spinning ball during that time but I am not
> certain.

I realize you've stated you think I'm wrong, right off the bat, rofl, but
this is looking more and more like a spinning disc failure in progress.
Specifically, it's close to or already has depleted it's backup supply of
sectors to remap over to. It's about the right age for a problem too. Even
if you didn't have many hours of runtime. Have you heard any clicking, or I
don't know how familiar you are with old DOS based systems in a bad need of
a defrag; but if you do have experience with them, and they had wd drives;
they tended to have a very distinct sound. The seagates did as well - but
they were already noisy as fuck so you couldn't use it as reliably to
determine what the drive might be upto. Have you heard either of those
sounds from the machine? Or, a hard 'clunk' sound - it may do this on
initial startup from a cold start, once or twice; but usually once. In some
cases, it could be a soft clunk sound.

>> Have you tried to use the netboot feature?
>
> Tried Net Recovery.... But do not recall details. Best to repeat and be
> specific instead of guessing and getting details wrong. I did say Net
> Boot before. That is an error. My apologies.

It's evidently older tech, in the Apple way that's been depreciated. Which
is interesting, because I can still PXE boot all of the machines I have
here. And, I think the latest and greatest still support that. I don't have
a 2023-2024 mb to fire up enter uefi and check; but I would be surprised to
find PXE has been removed.

>> I wouldn't have expected any change with a keyboard/mouse swap. That's
>> not the issue.
>
> Bad external devices can cause issues.

I'm aware. If you're using USB wireless ones can you switch over to hard
wired? No, I don't really think this will clear up the issues, but it'll do
a slightly better job of ruling one out for me.

>>
>>> My next recommendation would Command+R to try to get to Recovery Mode.
>>
>> I don't think that's going to help. Yea, after confirming what Recovery
>> mode actually is and does, I'm pretty sure it's useless. It would
>> attempt to restore onto the HD i still suspect has an issue.
>
> I am speaking of testing the drive.

I wouldn't trust the media you're booting from to run the test is what I
tried to explain to you. Recovery mode, is as with Windows systems, another
partition on the internal hard disk.

>>> No response. Tried the other keyboard. No luck. One is not a keyboard
>>> designed for Macs, so actually tried it twice -- once with Windows key
>>> and once with Control.

Are these mice and keyboards usb dongle wireless? Or are they hard wired?

>> I see. doesn't look like it had initialized USB human input by the time
>> you tried to enter verbose mode. Is there not a key you can press while
>> the loading bar is present to see those details?
>
> I do not believe so.

You can enable it to show by default, though.
Start Recovery Mode with Power + Command \u2318 + R. In macOS Utilities, go
to Utilities > Terminal, type nvram boot-args="-v", and hit Enter.

reboot the machine.

> I assume you are familiar with that term.

Yes, I am. but quite not in the same context; It's not a specific mode on
the linux distro's I use. By default, some of my old cli based freeware was
default to verbose mode if you didn't enter the proper command line. Made it
simpler than telling you to enter command -v or whatever. :) Just show you
what the program expected to see instead.

I don't really think Apple should have done it that way; you should be able
to hit a key and see what the machine is doing on the startup journey. Ah
well. Anyhow... can you follow those instructions above? If you're
succesful, please take a pic of where it dies during the loading process.

> Whatever it is doing is weirdly inconsistent. Maybe it has the computer
> version of my atypical dysautonomia. :)

Yea.. like a spinning HD failure in progress.

>> Snag a copy of an MXLinux ISO please and write to to a USB stick. As
>> far as I know, your imac can boot from a USB stick with MXLinux present
>> on it. If it will, we can use that to check the condition of the
>> internal hard drive from SMARTS pov.
>
> Been a while since I created such a disk, but I am sure I can do that.

Google is your friend.

> Well, before I used Puppy and Mint and maybe others but not MXLinux that
> I recall. Sure it is much the same.

You'll be in for a treat then. MXLinux is a sweet distro. So, what's your
status with this?

> I will do that... but will have to fit it into work the next couple of
> days. By the end of the week I will not be available for this for a
> while. Sorry for the coming and going... and sincerely appreciate your
> efforts here.

In the time you've been going back and forth with SC over the Tim threads,
you could have got that iso downloaded and the usb stick loaded with it.

>> Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral line
>> is seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.
>
> I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe
> there is a little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems
> odd... but did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I
> see where you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden
> switch or the like it cannot matter.

Whether you disconnect from the receptacle (that's whats usually inside the
wall, but can be surface mounted as well that you 'plugin' to) (a receptacle
isn't an outlet, but, an outlet can be a receptacle) or if you remove the
power cord from the back of the machine itself; you have electrically done
one in the same thing - As I wrote, above. It doesn't matter if there is or
isn't a switch in those cases. I doubt you know what the terminology I used
even means, but, what I wrote then and in this post is the same stuff.
Unplug it from either end you prefer, electrically it makes no fucking
difference. Whichever is easier for you is fine with me on this.

> Not sure what Smart Display is. You mean SMART info on the drive?

S.M.A.R.T, actually, if one's goal is to try and be a sly little wiseass,
snit.
I'm asking because I looked up the disk tools and it wasn't mentioned
anywhere on the urls I visited.
Since I don't trust the internal boot media; I'd prefer you boot it from the
MXLinux disc. We can get the smart data from there

>> Recovery mode is going to boot from the internal hard
>> drive;
>
> I do not believe this is correct but been some time since I used it. I
> think it works even with a new drive though.

Okay. Where do you think Apple is keeping the recovery mode then? An eeprom
someplace on your machine? Another much smaller hard disk they just don't
tell you about? Or, could it possibly be, another partition, on the same
physical internal hard disk? Hmm.. Ponder on that for a moment or two.

> I will get MXLinux but for now did try Command+R. Could not get it to do
> anything on either keyboard. Not sure I will be able to boot from an
> external drive if USB is being largely ignored.

Are you using usb wireless dongles or hard wired mouse and keyboard? For the
purposes of troubleshooting, we really should be using the old hardwired
versions, only.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:THnrN.245670$Wp_8....@fx17.iad Mon, 22
Jan 2024 06:13:07 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

>
>> You're nitpicking. You know what he meant by BIOS, snit. :)
>
> I know my Mac does not have a BIOS.

It doesn't go by that name, no. Modern PCs don't have a 'BIOS' anymore either,
it's been replaced by UEFI. Your mac uses EFI. A variation of it.
And, he isn't the only one to refer to it as the BIOS, even when discussing an
Apple product. You understood what he meant. You were just doing what you do.

See here:
https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:ZFnrN.45204$LONb....@fx08.iad Mon,

22 Jan 2024 06:11:05 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>

> There is some level of Recovery Mode that is in firmware, and a net book
> boots from the Internet.

Net boot has been depreciated. And I think your recovery mode is setup
like a Windows machine is. It's a hidden partition that's bootable but the
system doesn't boot it by default. The special keys you press tell it to
boot that partition instead of the OS one.

> https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-macos-recovery-on-an-intel-b

> ased-mac-mchl338cf9a8/mac
>
> I am suggesting the disk tools to check the drive. I was thinking you
> could boot from the 'net but that is not the case. But I could try
> installing on an external drive (not sure I have a free one right now
> with enough space, but I can check). But the disk tools seem a wise
> direction to go to test your idea of a bad drive.

Let's try using MXLinux, instead.

>>
>> From what I've read, Recovery mode is a partition on the internal hard
>> drive.
>
> I do not think so.

Macworld must be mistaken, then.

>> So it would still be using the internal hard drive to boot from.
>> https://www.macworld.com/article/673061/how-to-use-mac-recovery-mode.htm
>> l
>
> Where are you seeing that it is on the drive?

it's in what I cp from the site that you ignored..

>> MacOS Recovery (often referred to as Mac Recovery Mode) was introducmed
>> back in 2010 with OS X 10.7 Lion. This Recovery HD partition contains
>> the latest version of the macOS you installed on your Mac and makes it
>> possible to troubleshoot issues with your Mac.


>>
>> MacOS Recovery (often referred to as Mac Recovery Mode) was introducmed
>> back in 2010 with OS X 10.7 Lion. This Recovery HD partition contains
>> the latest version of the macOS you installed on your Mac and makes it
>> possible to troubleshoot issues with your Mac.
>
> The drive contains a copy of the OS.

Yes, on a recovery partition.

> but the Recovery Mode itself I do
> not think is on the drive.

According to macworld; quoted above, your Apple recovery mode is the same
as a Windows retail non oem load; it has a hidden bootable partition. A
recovery partition. An OEM load of Windows won't have the recovery
partition. It's upto the system builder to create it - if they do so
during the branding stage.

>> Please attempt to boot your intel powered rig from the mxlinux iso. Let
>> me know your results.
>
> Will do... but if I do not get to it soon be aware I will be MIA for a
> while again. I think I can get to it before I get tied up in other
> things.

Do you think this something you can get accomplished before the end of the
month? If you spent less time fucking around the tim thread, you would
have had this part done by now. Downloading MXLinux and writing it
bootable to a usb stick doesn't take very long. It can be done in under 15
minutes on a slow broadband connection.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:BznrN.219840$Ama9....@fx12.iad
Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:04:17 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:09鈥疨M MST, "Gremlin" wrote

My entire life can be summed up in one sentence...
"Well, that didn't fucking go as planned."

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:BznrN.219840$Ama9....@fx12.iad
Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:04:17 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:09鈂u20ac疨M MST, "Gremlin" wrote

> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:O%0rN.118298$q3F7....@fx45.iad
>> Sun, 21 Jan 2024 04:24:14 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>
>>> Clearly you never worked with an Apple IIe or similar system.
>>
>> ROFL.
>>
>> This style?
>>
>> <https://www.oldcomputr.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/apple_iie.jpg>
>>
>> or this one?
>> <https://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/77/22/product
>> -77722.jpg>
>>
>> And this ugly bastard of a monitor was the first one I actually used:
>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/5b/48/3e5b48a414d552a8919288b46ac4dcf7
>> .jpg
>>
>> The Apple 2e was the first actual computer I ever sat in front of that
>> had a screen and a keyboard
>
> No mouse.

Nope, it didn't have a mouse, either. Didn't need one for what it was being
used for. Wasn't a GUI on the damn thing and none of the programs we used at
the time were really GUI in nature, either. They responded to the keyboard.
:)

> I remember when you were so proud you did things on computers
> with no mice.

so proud? ROFL. No, you misunderstood the reason I even told you that. The
first computer I learned to program with didn't even have a keyboard. I
provided a pic to the Altair previously. I had every right to be proud of
what I was doing with it, too. I wasn't even in grade school yet when I
started messing with it. Snit, I learned to read from it's manuals; not
kindergarden. <G>

> It was funny.

Actually, what's funny is what you wrote that you were already employed
doing by the time I came around. Only problem with that story of yours is
that you would have been a very young teenager; we aren't that far apart in
ages. And there's no fucking way, as a teenager, that you (rofl) were
teaching adults how to use computers. Or writing software, or working for
any corporations. By the time I actually became a teenager, I was already a
known and accomplished software author. By the time I turned sixteen, I'd
already gotten Novell certs. So umm, no, we're nothing alike in this field,
snit. Never have been. I dunno the paths you took, but you sure as hell
didn't take the same roads I did.

> There was a time Apple DID make their machines expandable -- though
> admittedly that was a long time ago.

Expandable is not the same thing as what I was writing about, snit. Apples
are still expandable. You can upgrade the hard drive, most of the time. The
ram is usually soldered in place, so you're fucked there; but some PC
vendors have done this shit too. So.. No excuse for it.

> https://www.myoldcomputers.com/museum/computers/appleiigs_woz.htm
> -----
> Unlike the Apple IIc, the IIgs was expandable through add on boards, a
> return to the earlier Wozniak philosophy to make the Apple an open
> architecture. As with the earlier Apple II's and IIe's the top of the
> CPU unit is removable allowing access to the 7 expansion slots inside.

umm, the IIc could be expanded via boards too, snit; you had to use the
34pin header though. It wasn't expandable with daughter boards like the
previous 2 ones were.
The OS didn't know the difference though; the ROMs told the machine the
ports were still present and what was in each of them, even though they
didn't physically exist on the motherboard.

Our LOGOS robotics class were Apple II machines, with custom boards and long
ribbon cables coming out of them.

>> I've attended alot of schools
>
> So you should know "alot" is not a word. :)

It's a common misspelling of 'a lot'. Did you have a specific point, snit?

> What does any of this have to do with your claim:

It's not a claim. It's the truth. Apple is a proprietary walled off garden
and has been for a long time now. We aren't in the days of the Apple 2 or
the commie64 anymore, dude.

> For what it is worth, while you were playing at home, I was working in
> labs and running a cluster of computer labs... IIe systems mostly, but
> also had UNIX dummy terminals and DOS machines. And later Macs and
> Windows systems.

your DOB is July 22, 1969
Mine is Feb 08, 1978

With all due respect, We have nine years of age difference, snit. So, excuse
me if I doubt what you're claiming you were doing while you think I was
playing at home.
My idea of playing though was building things with electronics. As a child,
I knew the difference between a soldering iron and engraver. <G> and could
use both of them, correctly - to replace bad components on a pcb and put my
initials on a chassis of some neighbors radio or tv I fixed; that's what I
did as a 'kid' for fun; I didn't mow yards for summer money or rely on an
allowance; I worked. I fixed peoples shit. As a kid. ROFL. So, I'll take my
playing over what you claimed to be doing anyday. :) I can fix my gear. you,
well, heh, on your own, not so much, eh? :)

Also, you seem to forget, I know what you would have been using too; I
wasn't that far behind you and the computer industry was still a baby then.
You had the unix dummy terminals and a shitload of those crummy ass apples
with the green screens. And those dumb terminals were mostly run on IBM 400
mainframes (I think it was a 400) back then. 480 volt 3 phase kilowatt
sucking motherfuckers.b If you got the macs (the color macs) later and
Windows machines later, you've spent the bulk of your time playing
'professional student'. You've been fucking off is what you've been doing!

You can stop trying to be smug and talk down to me anytime you like. It's
not going to get you anywhere. I'm not an underling, snit.

>> The previous one was an Altair; it didn't have a screen or a keyboard.
>> It had LEDs and depending on which ones were lit in what order told you
>> what your program was doing or, heh, wasn't. It looked like this:
>> https://arcteaching.readthedocs.io/en/latest/_images/Altair_8800.jpg
>>
>> See? I learned to code, initially, using one of those. <G>

Heh, that's what I meant snit with my no mouse comment. <G> As you can see,
it didn't even have a keyboard. ROFL!

>>> Back then Woz pushed to make them as user expandable as he could.
>>
>> He was competing with Commodore, Amiga, Tandy, etc, at the time. That's
>> why.
>
> It was also his view of how things should be.

It wasn't his unique view. And expandable isn't the same thing as the
proprietary aspect I was writing about either.
Nobody said Apple wasn't expandable. What I wrote was about their
proprietary nature. What they did during their infancy does not change what
they became, snit. What other companies chose NOT to do.

>> Once we leave the world of the Apple2, we get closer and closer to the
>> completely walled off Apple Garden we have now. The other computer
>> systems didn't go this route.
>
> Sure. I was just speaking of your claim:

Yes, I've explained my statement. Is there a specific reason you continue to
go in circles about it?

> The last sentence... it has not always been the Apple way (though to be
> fair it has been a long time now).

Once we leave the old home computers some of us grew up with, it is. And
it's been that way since. Expandable isn't the same thing as propreitary.
How can you confuse the two so easily?

[Snit]

On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:21 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

>>>
>>> The Apple 2e was the first actual computer I ever sat in front of that
>>> had a screen and a keyboard
>>
>> No mouse.
>
> Nope, it didn't have a mouse, either.

I just find it funny how proud you have been of using computers with no mice.

> Didn't need one for what it was being
> used for. Wasn't a GUI on the damn thing and none of the programs we used at
> the time were really GUI in nature, either. They responded to the keyboard.
> :)

See: that is unintentionally funny.

>> I remember when you were so proud you did things on computers
>> with no mice.
>
> so proud? ROFL.

Yes. And that was funny.

> No, you misunderstood the reason I even told you that. The
> first computer I learned to program with didn't even have a keyboard. I
> provided a pic to the Altair previously. I had every right to be proud of
> what I was doing with it, too. I wasn't even in grade school yet when I
> started messing with it. Snit, I learned to read from it's manuals; not
> kindergarden. <G>

Oh, nothing wrong with taking pride in some of the stuff you have done. Hell,
I have shared some that I did at Intuit and my work on a fly speedometer and
more. I have talked about stuff where you and Carroll (more him than you), say
it is not even possible. I have noted I have no proof of some of your claims
and that has been offensive to you. but I do not join you and Carroll in
denying things you have done (or say you have) are even possible.

>
>> It was funny.
>
> Actually, what's funny is what you wrote that you were already employed
> doing by the time I came around. Only problem with that story of yours is
> that you would have been a very young teenager; we aren't that far apart in
> ages. And there's no fucking way, as a teenager, that you (rofl) were
> teaching adults how to use computers.

As a teen I was. See: I have done things you do not even see as possible. Now
we might quibble over the exact years -- I do not know your age off hand.

> Or writing software, or working for
> any corporations. By the time I actually became a teenager, I was already a
> known and accomplished software author.

And yet you just said you cannot see how a teen could teach adults. Your
claims are inconsistent.

> By the time I turned sixteen, I'd
> already gotten Novell certs. So umm, no, we're nothing alike in this field,
> snit. Never have been. I dunno the paths you took, but you sure as hell
> didn't take the same roads I did.

We do different things. Cool. I love we have different skills. I do not get
your need to compare or your stuff about how we are nothing alike. It is just
bizarre... like someone said we were.

>
>> There was a time Apple DID make their machines expandable -- though
>> admittedly that was a long time ago.
>
> Expandable is not the same thing as what I was writing about, snit.

What you wrote:

-----
They do not want you to take the machine to a
non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take
it back to them and continue to have an exclusive and expensive
relationship with them - hopefully for your entire life. This
has always been the Apple way
-----

That is what I responded to. Now if you want to say you did not word that well
or whatever that is cool.

> Apples
> are still expandable. You can upgrade the hard drive, most of the time.

Not with the modern Macs. The storage is a part of the CPU.

> The
> ram is usually soldered in place, so you're fucked there; but some PC
> vendors have done this shit too. So.. No excuse for it.

With the system on a chip that Apple now uses there is sorta an excuse.

>
>> https://www.myoldcomputers.com/museum/computers/appleiigs_woz.htm
>> -----
>> Unlike the Apple IIc, the IIgs was expandable through add on boards, a
>> return to the earlier Wozniak philosophy to make the Apple an open
>> architecture. As with the earlier Apple II's and IIe's the top of the
>> CPU unit is removable allowing access to the 7 expansion slots inside.
>
> umm, the IIc could be expanded via boards too, snit; you had to use the
> 34pin header though. It wasn't expandable with daughter boards like the
> previous 2 ones were.

Yes. But the IIgs was more so. I had a Woz edition and added extra memory
(4.25 MB... so much!) and a Second Site card and a HUGE hard drive (170 MB if
I recall correctly). Talk about a really powerful system! LOL!

I used to compare it to Pentiums and the like, though, and it was often
amazing how well it compared. Of course that was in limited contexts!

> The OS didn't know the difference though; the ROMs told the machine the
> ports were still present and what was in each of them, even though they
> didn't physically exist on the motherboard.
>
> Our LOGOS robotics class were Apple II machines, with custom boards and long
> ribbon cables coming out of them.
>
>>> I've attended alot of schools
>>
>> So you should know "alot" is not a word. :)
>
> It's a common misspelling of 'a lot'. Did you have a specific point, snit?

I did have a smiley... but using that often is a sign of a lower education (or
dyslexia or other such issue). With you saying it in a sentence about
education it is funny.

>
>> What does any of this have to do with your claim:
>
> It's not a claim. It's the truth. Apple is a proprietary walled off garden
> and has been for a long time now. We aren't in the days of the Apple 2 or
> the commie64 anymore, dude.

-----
They do not want you to take the machine to a
non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take it back to them
and continue to have an exclusive and expensive relationship with them -
hopefully for your entire life. This has always been the Apple way
-----

I already said it is right for the recent times... but the Apple II days were
different.

>
>> For what it is worth, while you were playing at home, I was working in
>> labs and running a cluster of computer labs... IIe systems mostly, but
>> also had UNIX dummy terminals and DOS machines. And later Macs and
>> Windows systems.
>
> your DOB is July 22, 1969
> Mine is Feb 08, 1978

OK. So you are only 9 years younger. I thought a bit more.

>
> With all due respect, We have nine years of age difference, snit. So, excuse
> me if I doubt what you're claiming you were doing while you think I was
> playing at home.
> My idea of playing though was building things with electronics.

How many times do you feel the need to share this? Why? It is truly bizarre
behavior.

From here I skimmed. You went back to just repetition. I don't get it. It is
beyond boring.

[Snit]

On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:20 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:THnrN.245670$Wp_8....@fx17.iad Mon, 22
> Jan 2024 06:13:07 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> You're nitpicking. You know what he meant by BIOS, snit. :)
>>
>> I know my Mac does not have a BIOS.
>
> It doesn't go by that name, no.

It does not have a BIOS. That was the point.

[Snit]

On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:20 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:ZFnrN.45204$LONb....@fx08.iad Mon,
> 22 Jan 2024 06:11:05 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

I believe things like the hardware check are in firmware. I could be wrong
though.

>
>>> Please attempt to boot your intel powered rig from the mxlinux iso. Let
>>> me know your results.
>>
>> Will do... but if I do not get to it soon be aware I will be MIA for a
>> while again. I think I can get to it before I get tied up in other
>> things.
>
> Do you think this something you can get accomplished before the end of the
> month?

To be honest not sure. I am doing more traveling than I thought I would be.
Not going to give exact dates and locations, but I will be away from home a
lot.

> If you spent less time fucking around the tim thread, you would
> have had this part done by now.

Just hop on a flight and go home? That is an unreal expectation on your part.

> Downloading MXLinux and writing it
> bootable to a usb stick doesn't take very long. It can be done in under 15
> minutes on a slow broadband connection.

I do not even have a thumb drive with me.

[Snit]

On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:19 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:P6orN.290228$xHn7....@fx14.iad
> Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:41:51 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:07â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>> Yes. Certain it is. Well, certain it is what is in the machine... not
>> really using it in any meaningful sense. :)
>>
>> But, yes, that is the drive in the machine.
>>
>>> SC seems to recall you having a technician look at this machine before
>>> and told you the mb was the issue?
>>
>> Motherboard or something of the sort. Hardware... and something rather
>> major.
>
> I meant to ask this earlier...Are you using usb wireless devices or are they
> hard wired? Would it be possible if you're using usb ones to switch over to
> hard wired versions?

Wired (USB). If I was using wireless they would not be USB (they would be
BlueTooth).

>
>>>
>>> Is this Apple Silicon or Intel?
>>
>> https://support.apple.com/kb/SP759?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US
>>
>> Intel. It is a 2017 machine!
>
> Great. I've seen several mac sites researching more about the machine you
> said is broken - which stated it might be Apple silicon, though.

Which site said a 2017 machine might have a chip that was first seen in a Mac
in 2020?

>
>>> SC asked you if the machine had been slowing down on you previously; he
>>> found a post from you where you reported that it would literally appear
>>> to freeze up on you, and then after about 30 seconds or so, act is if
>>> nothing was wrong. Is this correct?
>>
>> Yes. I do not recall a spinning ball during that time but I am not
>> certain.
>
> I realize you've stated you think I'm wrong, right off the bat, rofl, but
> this is looking more and more like a spinning disc failure in progress.

That would not explain other symptoms. But we will get to those later.

> Specifically, it's close to or already has depleted it's backup supply of
> sectors to remap over to. It's about the right age for a problem too. Even
> if you didn't have many hours of runtime. Have you heard any clicking, or I
> don't know how familiar you are with old DOS based systems in a bad need of
> a defrag; but if you do have experience with them, and they had wd drives;
> they tended to have a very distinct sound.

Yes. I know of the clicking.

> The seagates did as well - but
> they were already noisy as fuck so you couldn't use it as reliably to
> determine what the drive might be upto. Have you heard either of those
> sounds from the machine? Or, a hard 'clunk' sound - it may do this on
> initial startup from a cold start, once or twice; but usually once. In some
> cases, it could be a soft clunk sound.

Yes. Ran into that a lot when I worked with the school district / United Way
many years ago. And since... but had a run of very bad luck with drives back
then.

>
>>> I wouldn't have expected any change with a keyboard/mouse swap. That's
>>> not the issue.
>>
>> Bad external devices can cause issues.
>
> I'm aware.

It is why I tried other ones. Rule that out.

>
>>>
>>>> My next recommendation would Command+R to try to get to Recovery Mode.
>>>
>>> I don't think that's going to help. Yea, after confirming what Recovery
>>> mode actually is and does, I'm pretty sure it's useless. It would
>>> attempt to restore onto the HD i still suspect has an issue.
>>
>> I am speaking of testing the drive.
>
> I wouldn't trust the media you're booting from to run the test is what I
> tried to explain to you.

You think it is on the drive. I think it is in firmware.

> Recovery mode, is as with Windows systems, another
> partition on the internal hard disk.

This is not a Windows machine.

>
>>>> No response. Tried the other keyboard. No luck. One is not a keyboard
>>>> designed for Macs, so actually tried it twice -- once with Windows key
>>>> and once with Control.
>
> Are these mice and keyboards usb dongle wireless? Or are they hard wired?
>
>>> I see. doesn't look like it had initialized USB human input by the time
>>> you tried to enter verbose mode. Is there not a key you can press while
>>> the loading bar is present to see those details?
>>
>> I do not believe so.
>
> You can enable it to show by default, though.
> Start Recovery Mode with Power + Command \u2318 + R. In macOS Utilities, go
> to Utilities > Terminal, type nvram boot-args="-v", and hit Enter.

Would have to be able to boot to get there!

>
>>> Snag a copy of an MXLinux ISO please and write to to a USB stick. As
>>> far as I know, your imac can boot from a USB stick with MXLinux present
>>> on it. If it will, we can use that to check the condition of the
>>> internal hard drive from SMARTS pov.
>>
>> Been a while since I created such a disk, but I am sure I can do that.
>
> Google is your friend.

Right. It is a bit different on a Mac but not hard.

>
>> Well, before I used Puppy and Mint and maybe others but not MXLinux that
>> I recall. Sure it is much the same.
>
> You'll be in for a treat then. MXLinux is a sweet distro. So, what's your
> status with this?

Not home.

>
>> I will do that... but will have to fit it into work the next couple of
>> days. By the end of the week I will not be available for this for a
>> while. Sorry for the coming and going... and sincerely appreciate your
>> efforts here.
>
> In the time you've been going back and forth with SC over the Tim threads,
> you could have got that iso downloaded and the usb stick loaded with it.

The idea I am going to book a flight and go home for this project is not a
realistic expectation.

>
>>> Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral line
>>> is seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.
>>
>> I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe
>> there is a little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems
>> odd... but did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I
>> see where you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden
>> switch or the like it cannot matter.
>
> Whether you disconnect from the receptacle (that's whats usually inside the
> wall, but can be surface mounted as well that you 'plugin' to) (a receptacle
> isn't an outlet, but, an outlet can be a receptacle) or if you remove the
> power cord from the back of the machine itself; you have electrically done
> one in the same thing - As I wrote, above. It doesn't matter if there is or
> isn't a switch in those cases. I doubt you know what the terminology I used
> even means, but, what I wrote then and in this post is the same stuff.
> Unplug it from either end you prefer, electrically it makes no fucking
> difference. Whichever is easier for you is fine with me on this.

You response did not show understanding of what I said.

>
>> Not sure what Smart Display is. You mean SMART info on the drive?
>
> S.M.A.R.T, actually, if one's goal is to try and be a sly little wiseass,
> snit.

It was a sincere question. Trying to make sure we are on the same page.

> I'm asking because I looked up the disk tools and it wasn't mentioned
> anywhere on the urls I visited.
> Since I don't trust the internal boot media; I'd prefer you boot it from the
> MXLinux disc. We can get the smart data from there

Again: I am suggesting firmware, not boot media.

>
>>> Recovery mode is going to boot from the internal hard
>>> drive;
>>
>> I do not believe this is correct but been some time since I used it. I
>> think it works even with a new drive though.
>
> Okay. Where do you think Apple is keeping the recovery mode then? An eeprom
> someplace on your machine? Another much smaller hard disk they just don't
> tell you about? Or, could it possibly be, another partition, on the same
> physical internal hard disk? Hmm.. Ponder on that for a moment or two.

I am not talking a full OS backup. That is online.

>
>> I will get MXLinux but for now did try Command+R. Could not get it to do
>> anything on either keyboard. Not sure I will be able to boot from an
>> external drive if USB is being largely ignored.
>
> Are you using usb wireless dongles or hard wired mouse and keyboard? For the
> purposes of troubleshooting, we really should be using the old hardwired
> versions, only.

Hardwired USB.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:D%AsN.83239$STLe....@fx34.iad Thu,

25 Jan 2024 22:10:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:20 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:THnrN.245670$Wp_8....@fx17.iad
>> Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:13:07 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>
>>> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
>>> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>
>>>> You're nitpicking. You know what he meant by BIOS, snit. :)
>>>
>>> I know my Mac does not have a BIOS.
>>
>> It doesn't go by that name, no.
>
> It does not have a BIOS. That was the point.

It does have EFI, which is the Apple version of UEFI which replaced the
BIOS for the modern PC. As I provided with the url you snipped, he's not
unique in using the terminology. You may not like that, you might not even
agree with it, but it's still common enough that this url exists:
https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode

What you snipped away is restored below. I really don't know why you even
bother trying to be so disingenuine like that.

It doesn't go by that name, no. Modern PCs don't have a 'BIOS' anymore
either, it's been replaced by UEFI. Your mac uses EFI. A variation of it.
And, he isn't the only one to refer to it as the BIOS, even when
discussing an Apple product. You understood what he meant. You were just
doing what you do.

See here:
https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode

No big deal, it's just you doing what you do, snit.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:scBsN.346125$p%Mb.8...@fx15.iad
Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:24:24 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:19槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

>
> Wired (USB). If I was using wireless they would not be USB (they would
> be BlueTooth).

Okay. I haven't seen many PCs using bluetooth for that, most if they're
using wireless keyboard/mouse are doing it with usb dongles. In many cases,
one dongle controls both devices for them. I've used bluetooth to xfer files
between this laptop and a cell; but it's painfully slow as frak compared to
a USB transfer.

>>> Intel. It is a 2017 machine!
>>
>> Great. I've seen several mac sites researching more about the machine
>> you said is broken - which stated it might be Apple silicon, though.
>
> Which site said a 2017 machine might have a chip that was first seen in
> a Mac in 2020?

It came up when I was checking out how to use a Linux USB stick to boot your
machine for diagnostics/troubleshooting purposes. One article mentioned a
completely different process if you were Apple silicon based (as in I
probably wouldn't be able to boot the distro I wanted to use). I accept the
article could be wrong? As I've said, I'm not an Apple person. And for the
sort of repairs I've performed on them, it didn't much matter.

Do you really think I'd ask you that question for shits and giggles? I was
asking you, because you're the 'Apple guy' here, I didn't feel like googling
for more details. If you told me you were Apple silicon and you weren't, I
wouldn't have known the difference.

>> I realize you've stated you think I'm wrong, right off the bat, rofl,
>> but this is looking more and more like a spinning disc failure in
>> progress.
>
> That would not explain other symptoms. But we will get to those later.

Hmm. Either I'm misunderstanding you; possible, but doubtful.. Or, you are
doing as SC has written. What details are you withholding and basically
playing games about snit? I know I asked for all the symptoms, details, etc.
As much as you could provide. So, what haven't you shared?

>> Have you heard any
>> clicking, or I don't know how familiar you are with old DOS based
>> systems in a bad need of a defrag; but if you do have experience with
>> them, and they had wd drives; they tended to have a very distinct
>> sound.
>
> Yes. I know of the clicking.

The DOS drive sound I was writing about wasn't a clicking noise; it was more
of a dirty access noise; you could hear the heads traveling to several
different platters to get the file you were loading. Because it wasn't
stored in anywhere near a contigious area anymore.

>> The seagates did as well - but
>> they were already noisy as fuck so you couldn't use it as reliably to
>> determine what the drive might be upto. Have you heard either of those
>> sounds from the machine? Or, a hard 'clunk' sound - it may do this on
>> initial startup from a cold start, once or twice; but usually once. In
>> some cases, it could be a soft clunk sound.
>
> Yes.

I'll try again, for clarification. Have you heard the noises that I've
described coming from the machine that's giving you a problem? I'm not
writing about the normal noises one hears from a mechanical drive, snit.

>> I wouldn't trust the media you're booting from to run the test is what
>> I tried to explain to you.
>
> You think it is on the drive. I think it is in firmware.

It IS on the drive. It's not in the firmware. Your recovery mode is booting
from a hidden partition on the internal HD.
<https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253102246?sortBy=best>

And
<https://discussions.apple.com/thread/251112120?sortBy=best>

And
<https://computers.tutsplus.com/the-os-x-recovery-partition-what-it-is-why-it
s-there-and-how-to-remove-it--mac-31796t>

I can provide more if you need them, snit. It's a hidden partition. It's not
in your firmware. It relies on the internal HD not being in a physical
failing condition; and I suspect it is.

>> Recovery mode, is as with Windows systems, another
>> partition on the internal hard disk.
>
> This is not a Windows machine.

That doesn't matter. It's doing it the same fucking way as a Windows machine
with a recovery partition does. It's not in your firmware, it's on the
internal HD. The same drive the OS won't boot from. You cannot fucking trust
it - the media it's sitting on is suspect.

>> You can enable it to show by default, though.
>> Start Recovery Mode with Power + Command \u2318 + R. In macOS
>> Utilities, go to Utilities > Terminal, type nvram boot-args="-v", and
>> hit Enter.
>
> Would have to be able to boot to get there!

Recovery mode isn't working? I thought you were all about trying to use
recovery mode to troubleshoot the hard disk condition with the disk utility?
Has something changed, snit? Or, are you leaving out details? As in, You
can't even boot into recovery mode? Since it's a partition on the same
internal hard drive, I'm really not surprised if that is an issue.

>>>> Snag a copy of an MXLinux ISO please and write to to a USB stick. As
>>>> far as I know, your imac can boot from a USB stick with MXLinux
>>>> present on it. If it will, we can use that to check the condition of
>>>> the internal hard drive from SMARTS pov.
>>>
>>> Been a while since I created such a disk, but I am sure I can do that.
>>
>> Google is your friend.
>
> Right. It is a bit different on a Mac but not hard.

It's about the same as it is for a modern PC actually. Download the ISO,
write the ISO, enter EFI on your system, grant permission to boot from
external media and access local media storage; you know, for the SMART test
and other diagnostics (if you ever make it that far)...All kinds of easy to
follow guides, youtube videos, etc.

> The idea I am going to book a flight and go home for this project is not
> a realistic expectation.

:) And I'm supposed to know your itinerary how exactly? I was simply going
by what you wrote. I asked you to do this days ago, back when you claimed
you might have the time...

>>>> Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral
>>>> line is seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.
>>>
>>> I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe
>>> there is a little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems
>>> odd... but did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But
>>> I see where you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no
>>> hidden switch or the like it cannot matter.
>>
>> Whether you disconnect from the receptacle (that's whats usually inside
>> the wall, but can be surface mounted as well that you 'plugin' to) (a
>> receptacle isn't an outlet, but, an outlet can be a receptacle) or if
>> you remove the power cord from the back of the machine itself; you have
>> electrically done one in the same thing - As I wrote, above. It doesn't
>> matter if there is or isn't a switch in those cases. I doubt you know
>> what the terminology I used even means, but, what I wrote then and in
>> this post is the same stuff. Unplug it from either end you prefer,
>> electrically it makes no fucking difference. Whichever is easier for
>> you is fine with me on this.
>
> You response did not show understanding of what I said.

Trying to be a wiseass with me, okay then. Let's teach...The switch you
speak of, unless it's the HOT side break, and not a latch key circuit
start/enable switch; it won't electrically isolate the fucking machine from
mains power. What will actually do that is to unplug it from the receptacle,
or if it's a detachable cord, from that end of the device. Or flip a switch
that does break HOT if it's on a power strip. Stop trying to talk down to
me. Stop trying to portray me as incapable of understanding you, snit. And,
finally, stop trying to pivot and project reading comprehension issues we
have all seen you demonstrate going back several years now in this newsgroup
alone on me. We will get much further along, more efficiently when you lose
the attitude and stop trying to correct or otherwise get smart with me. Oh,
and that psy BS nonsense; stop doing that too. It's annoying. I know you
don't understand the terminology I used, and that's fine; at this point in
time it's not necessary that you do. If it becomes necessary, I'll explain
it then.

>>> Not sure what Smart Display is. You mean SMART info on the drive?
>>
>> S.M.A.R.T, actually, if one's goal is to try and be a sly little
>> wiseass, snit.
>
> It was a sincere question.

Just as 'sincere' as your claim my response didn't show I understood what
you wrote. Stop doing that stupid shit, snit.

>> I'm asking because I looked up the disk tools and it wasn't mentioned
>> anywhere on the urls I visited.
>> Since I don't trust the internal boot media; I'd prefer you boot it
>> from the MXLinux disc. We can get the smart data from there
>
> Again: I am suggesting firmware, not boot media.

Yea, I know what you're suggesting. I also know that you're wrong. Which
doesn't really boost my confidence in your actual knowledge of the fucking
machines you use; that I do not. Now, I'll have to ask even more questions
and verify what you tell me with google. Damnit.

>> Okay. Where do you think Apple is keeping the recovery mode then? An
>> eeprom someplace on your machine? Another much smaller hard disk they
>> just don't tell you about? Or, could it possibly be, another partition,
>> on the same physical internal hard disk? Hmm.. Ponder on that for a
>> moment or two.
>
> I am not talking a full OS backup. That is online.

I know what you're talking about. I also know that you are not correct in
what you write or think concerning it. It's not sitting on eeprom. It's a
partition. a hidden bootable partition that lives on the same physical drive
as your OS partition. Not being able to enter recovery 'mode' is still a
failing HD symptom. It could also be a keyboard issue, but, you ruled that
out by testing with another one. Unless, the other one is also bad; but
that's not as likely. Possible, but not that likely.

<https://discussions.apple.com/thread/251112120?answerId=252107738022&sortBy=
best#252107738022>

And
<https://computers.tutsplus.com/the-os-x-recovery-partition-what-it-is-why-it
s-there-and-how-to-remove-it--mac-31796t>

>>> I will get MXLinux but for now did try Command+R. Could not get it to
>>> do anything on either keyboard. Not sure I will be able to boot from
>>> an external drive if USB is being largely ignored.
>>
>> Are you using usb wireless dongles or hard wired mouse and keyboard?
>> For the purposes of troubleshooting, we really should be using the old
>> hardwired versions, only.
>
> Hardwired USB.

Snit, again, if you have a fucked HD, and I still think you do; you won't be
able to succesfully boot off of it, atleast not for long, on any of the
partitions you tell it to start from. And that includes your recovery mode.
is everything a 'mode' to Apple? FFS.

I don't think the second method is going to do much good, but, for shits and
giggles, let's try it, why not...
There are usually two ways to access the Recovery Partition when booting
your Mac.

The first way to access the Recovery Partition is to boot your Mac and press
and hold the \u2318 (Command) and R keys immediately after the initial chime
sounds a few seconds after the machine is turned on. You must keep holding
down both the Command and R keys until you see a window with \u201cOS X
Utilities\u201d across the top in large text.

If the first method does not work for you, try the second method which works
on any Mac.

The second way to access the Recovery Partition is to boot your Mac and
press and hold the \u2325 (Option) key, located either side of the spacebar
and marked as ALT on newer Mac keyboards.

Again, keep holding the \u2325 (Option) key until the appearance of a grey
screen showing connected, bootable volumes. These are represented by icons
of internal hard drives with the name of the respective bootable volume
beneath them.

In this instance, you will need to select the bootable volume named
\u201cRecovery HD\u201d by using the arrow keys to move the arrow to the
appropriate icon. You will also have the option to connect to a local wi-fi
network to access a Time Capsule or the Internet in recovery mode. There is
also an option to choose a network, later, once you have booted into
recovery mode. Alternatively, just ensure that you have an ethernet cable
connecting your Mac to your network or direct to your router.

For someone intent on riding me for not knowing for sure what your CPU base
was, don't you you think you should actually know more about how your
machine works than me? I mean, before you go and light me up over asking you
if it was Intel or Apple based CPU...I may not have known which platform
yours used for sure, but I did know your recovery mode was a hidden
partition - not firmware hiding in an eeprom someplace.

Dude, enough with the bullshit here. Provide *ALL OF THE fucking symptoms*
and stop trying to act as if I'm your underling, or going to become one. You
aren't the teacher here, obviously.

[%]

Gremlin wrote:
> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:D%AsN.83239$STLe....@fx34.iad Thu,
> 25 Jan 2024 22:10:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:20 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:THnrN.245670$Wp_8....@fx17.iad
>>> Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:13:07 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>

>>>> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>>>> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>>
>>>>> You're nitpicking. You know what he meant by BIOS, snit. :)
>>>>
>>>> I know my Mac does not have a BIOS.
>>>
>>> It doesn't go by that name, no.
>>
>> It does not have a BIOS. That was the point.
>
> It does have EFI, which is the Apple version of UEFI which replaced the
> BIOS for the modern PC. As I provided with the url you snipped, he's not
> unique in using the terminology. You may not like that, you might not even
> agree with it, but it's still common enough that this url exists:
> https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode
>
> What you snipped away is restored below. I really don't know why you even
> bother trying to be so disingenuine like that.
>
> It doesn't go by that name, no. Modern PCs don't have a 'BIOS' anymore
> either, it's been replaced by UEFI. Your mac uses EFI. A variation of it.
> And, he isn't the only one to refer to it as the BIOS, even when
> discussing an Apple product. You understood what he meant. You were just
> doing what you do.
>
> See here:
> https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode
>
>
> No big deal, it's just you doing what you do, snit.
>
>
>

and this post turns into a love making session with gremlin and snit ,
gremlin , word around the ladies shower is ,
you don't know much about much

[Snit]

On Jan 25, 2024 at 5:15:45 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB104C3...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:D%AsN.83239$STLe....@fx34.iad Thu,
> 25 Jan 2024 22:10:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:20 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
>> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:THnrN.245670$Wp_8....@fx17.iad
>>> Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:13:07 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
>>>> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>>
>>>>> You're nitpicking. You know what he meant by BIOS, snit. :)
>>>>
>>>> I know my Mac does not have a BIOS.
>>>
>>> It doesn't go by that name, no.
>>
>> It does not have a BIOS. That was the point.
>
> It does have EFI,

That has not been in question. And is not relevant to the point.

[Snit]

On Jan 25, 2024 at 5:15:44 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB104C3...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:scBsN.346125$p%Mb.8...@fx15.iad
> Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:24:24 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:19â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>> Wired (USB). If I was using wireless they would not be USB (they would
>> be BlueTooth).
>
> Okay. I haven't seen many PCs using bluetooth for that, most if they're
> using wireless keyboard/mouse are doing it with usb dongles.

Yeah. I recently got a new mouse for my MacBook Air. Yes, I know the dongles
can lead to slightly better performance but I did NOT want one. Heck, the new
Airs do not even have old style USB, so I would need a converter. I *do* have
a portable hub thing for it, but why plug that in every time I want to use a
mouse? Took longer to find a good one than it should... but I ended up with
what I usually do, a Logitech. Side note: Works great with my third party
software.

> In many cases,
> one dongle controls both devices for them.

Up to six if I recall correctly.

> I've used bluetooth to xfer files
> between this laptop and a cell; but it's painfully slow as frak compared to
> a USB transfer.

For mice it works very well.

>
>>>> Intel. It is a 2017 machine!
>>>
>>> Great. I've seen several mac sites researching more about the machine
>>> you said is broken - which stated it might be Apple silicon, though.
>>
>> Which site said a 2017 machine might have a chip that was first seen in
>> a Mac in 2020?
>
> It came up when I was checking out how to use a Linux USB stick to boot your
> machine for diagnostics/troubleshooting purposes. One article mentioned a
> completely different process if you were Apple silicon based (as in I
> probably wouldn't be able to boot the distro I wanted to use). I accept the
> article could be wrong? As I've said, I'm not an Apple person. And for the
> sort of repairs I've performed on them, it didn't much matter.

I cannot imagine ANY article said a 2017 iMac would have a chip that came out
in 2020.

>
> Do you really think I'd ask you that question for shits and giggles?

I think you have a very hard time admitting to errors, especially when it
comes to tech, and doubly so when it comes to me. Your ego gets in the way.

> I was
> asking you, because you're the 'Apple guy' here, I didn't feel like googling
> for more details. If you told me you were Apple silicon and you weren't, I
> wouldn't have known the difference.

OK, not going to change the above but here you sorta go against what I said...
you note you do not know and figured I might. That is commendable and I
appreciate seeing that side of you.

You made an error. It happens. And here you even show humility over it. That
is far more impressive to me than a lot of the things you go on about.

>
>>> I realize you've stated you think I'm wrong, right off the bat, rofl,
>>> but this is looking more and more like a spinning disc failure in
>>> progress.
>>
>> That would not explain other symptoms. But we will get to those later.
>
> Hmm. Either I'm misunderstanding you; possible, but doubtful.. Or, you are
> doing as SC has written. What details are you withholding and basically
> playing games about snit? I know I asked for all the symptoms, details, etc.
> As much as you could provide. So, what haven't you shared?

I have not withheld anything. I am speaking of what I have noted before -- my
past work with it where I was not as careful and do not recall the details.
This is a bad habit of yours: taking Carroll's word, esp. about me, as
anything other than an effort to create drama. You should know that by now.

>
>>> Have you heard any
>>> clicking, or I don't know how familiar you are with old DOS based
>>> systems in a bad need of a defrag; but if you do have experience with
>>> them, and they had wd drives; they tended to have a very distinct
>>> sound.
>>
>> Yes. I know of the clicking.
>
> The DOS drive sound I was writing about wasn't a clicking noise; it was more
> of a dirty access noise; you could hear the heads traveling to several
> different platters to get the file you were loading. Because it wasn't
> stored in anywhere near a contigious area anymore.

Yes. I have heard that, too.

>
>>> The seagates did as well - but
>>> they were already noisy as fuck so you couldn't use it as reliably to
>>> determine what the drive might be upto. Have you heard either of those
>>> sounds from the machine? Or, a hard 'clunk' sound - it may do this on
>>> initial startup from a cold start, once or twice; but usually once. In
>>> some cases, it could be a soft clunk sound.
>>
>> Yes.
>
> I'll try again, for clarification. Have you heard the noises that I've
> described coming from the machine that's giving you a problem? I'm not
> writing about the normal noises one hears from a mechanical drive, snit.

Not that I recall... and not as I have played with it recently. Sorry, I see
where you meant for this specific mahijne and I took it as general talk.

>
>
>>> I wouldn't trust the media you're booting from to run the test is what
>>> I tried to explain to you.
>>
>> You think it is on the drive. I think it is in firmware.
>
> It IS on the drive. It's not in the firmware. Your recovery mode is booting
> from a hidden partition on the internal HD.
> <https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253102246?sortBy=best>
>
> And
> <https://discussions.apple.com/thread/251112120?sortBy=best>
>
> And
> <https://computers.tutsplus.com/the-os-x-recovery-partition-what-it-is-why-its-there-and-how-to-remove-it--mac-31796t>
>
> I can provide more if you need them, snit. It's a hidden partition. It's not
> in your firmware. It relies on the internal HD not being in a physical
> failing condition; and I suspect it is.

Thanks. I was thinking there was a built in pert in firmware but do not see
it. But Option+Command+R does so from the net. That is what I mistakenly
referred to as net booting (it technically is but I have booted Macs into the
full OS over the local network... so another error of mine).

>
>>> Recovery mode, is as with Windows systems, another
>>> partition on the internal hard disk.
>>
>> This is not a Windows machine.
>
> That doesn't matter. It's doing it the same fucking way as a Windows machine
> with a recovery partition does. It's not in your firmware, it's on the
> internal HD. The same drive the OS won't boot from. You cannot fucking trust
> it - the media it's sitting on is suspect.

The point being there are things unique to both. For example is there an easy
way to boot into such tools from the net with a Windows PC? There might be but
I do not know it.

>
>>> You can enable it to show by default, though.
>>> Start Recovery Mode with Power + Command \u2318 + R. In macOS
>>> Utilities, go to Utilities > Terminal, type nvram boot-args="-v", and
>>> hit Enter.
>>
>> Would have to be able to boot to get there!
>
> Recovery mode isn't working? I thought you were all about trying to use
> recovery mode to troubleshoot the hard disk condition with the disk utility?

In the past. Booting from the 'net. But with what we have done now -- no. I
have been pretty clear with what I have been doing.

> Has something changed, snit? Or, are you leaving out details?

No. You added some. :)

> As in, You
> can't even boot into recovery mode?

I talked about trying and you said to use Linux.

> Since it's a partition on the same
> internal hard drive, I'm really not surprised if that is an issue.

But the 'net one is not on the drive.

>
>>>>> Snag a copy of an MXLinux ISO please and write to to a USB stick. As
>>>>> far as I know, your imac can boot from a USB stick with MXLinux
>>>>> present on it. If it will, we can use that to check the condition of
>>>>> the internal hard drive from SMARTS pov.
>>>>
>>>> Been a while since I created such a disk, but I am sure I can do that.
>>>
>>> Google is your friend.
>>
>> Right. It is a bit different on a Mac but not hard.
>
> It's about the same as it is for a modern PC actually. Download the ISO,
> write the ISO,

The tools here are not the same on a Mac. But not hard to get such a tool.

> enter EFI on your system, grant permission to boot from
> external media

No need on most Macs.

> and access local media storage; you know, for the SMART test
> and other diagnostics (if you ever make it that far)...All kinds of easy to
> follow guides, youtube videos, etc.
>
>> The idea I am going to book a flight and go home for this project is not
>> a realistic expectation.
>
> :) And I'm supposed to know your itinerary how exactly?

EXACTLY! That is my point. I keep telling you I am not going to be near the
machine. I am even giving you rough timing. I did end up leaving a bit earlier
than expected.

> I was simply going
> by what you wrote. I asked you to do this days ago, back when you claimed
> you might have the time...

Even then I said maybe... and that I would be "MIA".

>
>>>>> Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral
>>>>> line is seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.
>>>>
>>>> I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe
>>>> there is a little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems
>>>> odd... but did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But
>>>> I see where you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no
>>>> hidden switch or the like it cannot matter.
>>>
>>> Whether you disconnect from the receptacle (that's whats usually inside
>>> the wall, but can be surface mounted as well that you 'plugin' to) (a
>>> receptacle isn't an outlet, but, an outlet can be a receptacle) or if
>>> you remove the power cord from the back of the machine itself; you have
>>> electrically done one in the same thing - As I wrote, above. It doesn't
>>> matter if there is or isn't a switch in those cases. I doubt you know
>>> what the terminology I used even means, but, what I wrote then and in
>>> this post is the same stuff. Unplug it from either end you prefer,
>>> electrically it makes no fucking difference. Whichever is easier for
>>> you is fine with me on this.
>>
>> You response did not show understanding of what I said.
>
> Trying to be a wiseass with me, okay then.

No.

> Let's teach...The switch you
> speak of, unless it's the HOT side break, and not a latch key circuit
> start/enable switch; it won't electrically isolate the fucking machine from
> mains power. What will actually do that is to unplug it from the receptacle,
> or if it's a detachable cord, from that end of the device. Or flip a switch
> that does break HOT if it's on a power strip. Stop trying to talk down to
> me. Stop trying to portray me as incapable of understanding you, snit. And,
> finally, stop trying to pivot and project reading comprehension issues we
> have all seen you demonstrate going back several years now in this newsgroup
> alone on me. We will get much further along, more efficiently when you lose
> the attitude and stop trying to correct or otherwise get smart with me. Oh,
> and that psy BS nonsense; stop doing that too. It's annoying. I know you
> don't understand the terminology I used, and that's fine; at this point in
> time it's not necessary that you do. If it becomes necessary, I'll explain
> it then.

None of that showed understanding on your part, but it did show your anger.

>
>>>> Not sure what Smart Display is. You mean SMART info on the drive?
>>>
>>> S.M.A.R.T, actually, if one's goal is to try and be a sly little
>>> wiseass, snit.
>>
>> It was a sincere question.
>
> Just as 'sincere' as your claim my response didn't show I understood what
> you wrote. Stop doing that stupid shit, snit.

It is simply a fact you failed to understand. And that is not related to the
fact I was not sure what you meant by a Smart Display. I am familiar with the
term in relation to to a different context.

https://www.pcmag.com/picks/the-best-smart-displays

Clearly you could not mean that. So maybe there was some software that
displayed SMART info I did not know of? I thought maybe you wanted me to use
that software. Heck, maybe it was Linux software.

And it is why I asked for clarification and gave my best guess.

>>> Are you using usb wireless dongles or hard wired mouse and keyboard?
>>> For the purposes of troubleshooting, we really should be using the old
>>> hardwired versions, only.
>>
>> Hardwired USB.
>
> Snit, again, if you have a fucked HD, and I still think you do; you won't be
> able to succesfully boot off of it, atleast not for long, on any of the
> partitions you tell it to start from. And that includes your recovery mode.
> is everything a 'mode' to Apple? FFS.

What does this have to do with USB?

And even with a dead or missing drive I think you can boot into 'net recovery
mode (Option+Command+R).

>
> The first way to access the Recovery Partition is to boot your Mac and press
> and hold the \u2318 (Command) and R keys immediately after the initial chime
> sounds a few seconds after the machine is turned on. You must keep holding
> down both the Command and R keys until you see a window with \u201cOS X
> Utilities\u201d across the top in large text.

Command+R. That is what I suggested, I was thinking it was in firmware but
that seems in error. Thanks again.

Hence why I am thinking Option+Command+R and trying from the Net is better.
You suggest Linux. No issue with that either.

>
> If the first method does not work for you, try the second method which works
> on any Mac.
>
> The second way to access the Recovery Partition is to boot your Mac and
> press and hold the \u2325 (Option) key, located either side of the spacebar
> and marked as ALT on newer Mac keyboards.
>
> Again, keep holding the \u2325 (Option) key until the appearance of a grey
> screen showing connected, bootable volumes. These are represented by icons
> of internal hard drives with the name of the respective bootable volume
> beneath them.

So just an Option boot. I can try that (when I am at the machine, of course).

>
> In this instance, you will need to select the bootable volume named
> \u201cRecovery HD\u201d by using the arrow keys to move the arrow to the
> appropriate icon. You will also have the option to connect to a local wi-fi
> network to access a Time Capsule or the Internet in recovery mode. There is
> also an option to choose a network, later, once you have booted into
> recovery mode. Alternatively, just ensure that you have an ethernet cable
> connecting your Mac to your network or direct to your router.

Are these options in firmware or the hard drive. I was thinking firmware.

>
> For someone intent on riding me for not knowing for sure what your CPU base
> was,

You said you found it online. But as I said you showed some level of rare
humility and I spoke well of that. You see that as me "riding" you. Odd.

> don't you you think you should actually know more about how your
> machine works than me? I mean, before you go and light me up over asking you
> if it was Intel or Apple based CPU...I may not have known which platform
> yours used for sure, but I did know your recovery mode was a hidden
> partition - not firmware hiding in an eeprom someplace.

I made the error of thinking more of the recovery stuff was in firmware. And
noted at the time I might be in error. Oh, the horror!

>
> Dude, enough with the bullshit here.

If you really are going to stop I think that is great. But, sadly, I do not
believe you.

> Provide *ALL OF THE fucking symptoms*
> and stop trying to act as if I'm your underling, or going to become one. You
> aren't the teacher here, obviously.

I was quite direct and detailed as I described the symptoms. I then offered
some clarification. Not sure why this is offensive to you.

[pothead]

Indeed.
It's obvious that snit just wants to start conflict and waste your time.
I wouldn't bother giving him advice on how to fix his iMac, assuming it even exists, because snit
will just drag you and everyone else around in circles until the entire thread becomes a gigantic
food fight.
Just my 2 cents.

[Snit]

On Jan 26, 2024 at 5:51:03 AM MST, "pothead" wrote
<up09rn$2qs5m$1...@dont-email.me>:

Why would following his directions cause conflict?

> I wouldn't bother giving him advice on how to fix his iMac, assuming it even
> exists, because snit
> will just drag you and everyone else around in circles until the entire thread
> becomes a gigantic
> food fight.
> Just my 2 cents.


--

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:dUFsN.284616$c3Ea....@fx10.iad
Fri, 26 Jan 2024 03:44:09 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 25, 2024 at 5:15:44槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB104C3...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

>
> I cannot imagine ANY article said a 2017 iMac would have a chip that
> came out in 2020.

I do not care if you believe me or not.

>> Do you really think I'd ask you that question for shits and giggles?
>

> I think you have a very hard time admitting to errors

I don't care what you think. You thought your recovery mode was firmware for
FFS and it's been a hidden partition on the internal HD for years. It's not
new.

> OK, not going to change the above but here you sorta go against what I
> said... you note you do not know and figured I might.

I clearly made an error by doing that, because you don't know as much about
Apple as I assumed you did.

> You made an error.

Yes, but, it's not the error you're desperately trying to claim I made. I
told you, the information came up during my search to determine how to boot
MXLinux with your Apple. If it was Apple based silicon, it was going to
become a problem. If it was Intel based, no issue. The actual error I made
was assuming that you're actually an Apple guy with knowledge beyond that of
an end user.

> That is far more impressive to me than a lot of the things you go on
> about.

What you consider to be, or not, impressive doesn't matter to me. your
psychobabble bullshit isn't relevant, either.

> I have not withheld anything. I am speaking of what I have noted before
> -- my past work with it where I was not as careful and do not recall the
> details.

Okay, so your phrasing was in error. You could have done a better job
explaining. I understand.

> This is a bad habit of yours: taking Carroll's word, esp. about
> me, as anything other than an effort to create drama. You should know
> that by now.

SC has nothing to do with this, but since you bring him up, I'll take the
time to educate you. I have had the opportunity to fact check the both of
you. By doing so, I've been able to determine which of the two of you is
truthful, and which is not. It's clear, not only to myself, but others as
well, that you are not the honest one of the two of you. It's nothing to do
with creating drama for him, that's something YOU are all about; it's why
you brought him up as you did above.

>> I'll try again, for clarification. Have you heard the noises that I've
>> described coming from the machine that's giving you a problem? I'm not
>> writing about the normal noises one hears from a mechanical drive,
>> snit.
>

> Sorry, I see where you meant for this specific mahijne and I took it as
general
> talk.

Stop trying to skim. You're reading comprehension skills are too poor for
that.

>> I can provide more if you need them, snit. It's a hidden partition.
>> It's not in your firmware. It relies on the internal HD not being in a
>> physical failing condition; and I suspect it is.
>
> Thanks. I was thinking there was a built in pert in firmware but do not
> see it.

You don't see it, because it isn't. Your only finally conceding on this now
because of the urls I shared. If i hadn't of, you'd still be trying to argue
with me.

>>>> Recovery mode, is as with Windows systems, another
>>>> partition on the internal hard disk.
>>>
>>> This is not a Windows machine.
>>
>> That doesn't matter. It's doing it the same fucking way as a Windows
>> machine with a recovery partition does. It's not in your firmware, it's
>> on the internal HD. The same drive the OS won't boot from. You cannot
>> fucking trust it - the media it's sitting on is suspect.
>
> The point being there are things unique to both.

No, weasel, that's not the point. The point, as is clearly left above, is
that your Apple and a modern Windows machine use the same type of 'tech' for
their recovery options. They're BOTH USING HIDDEN PARTITIONS, as I told you,
from the fucking jump. You, NOT knowing this, tried to dismiss the
comparison. Now that you can no longer claim it's not exactly what I said it
was, you're trying to change what the point was. I'm not going to let you do
that.

> In the past. Booting from the 'net. But with what we have done now --
> no. I have been pretty clear with what I have been doing.

Net boot has been depreciated for years. I doubt you were doing that with
that machine specifically.

>> Has something changed, snit? Or, are you leaving out details?
>
> No. You added some. :)

The only details I added was teaching you how recovery mode actually works
and where it's actually located. It's been this way for a long time, too. So
what is your excuse for not knowing this?

> But the 'net one is not on the drive.

No, but the loader, I will call GRUB for simplicity, is. And it's
responsible for bringing up your menu for the options. If it can't boot, you
get no menu.

>> It's about the same as it is for a modern PC actually. Download the
>> ISO, write the ISO,
>
> The tools here are not the same on a Mac.

I didn't say the tools were, either. I said the concept is the same, the
steps you take in general, the order in which you do it.

>> :) And I'm supposed to know your itinerary how exactly?
>
> EXACTLY! That is my point. I keep telling you I am not going to be near
> the machine. I am even giving you rough timing. I did end up leaving a
> bit earlier than expected.

You know I don't really believe any of that you're traveling nonsense right?
Driving, to flying? :) C'mon.

>
> No.

Yes, that's exactly what you're trying to do.

>>> I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe
>>> there is a little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems
>>> odd... but did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I
>>> see where you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden
>>> switch or the like it cannot matter.

>> Let's teach...The switch you
>> speak of, unless it's the HOT side break, and not a latch key circuit
>> start/enable switch; it won't electrically isolate the fucking machine
>> from mains power. What will actually do that is to unplug it from the
>> receptacle, or if it's a detachable cord, from that end of the device.
>> Or flip a switch that does break HOT if it's on a power strip. Stop
>> trying to talk down to me. Stop trying to portray me as incapable of
>> understanding you, snit. And, finally, stop trying to pivot and project
>> reading comprehension issues we have all seen you demonstrate going
>> back several years now in this newsgroup alone on me. We will get much
>> further along, more efficiently when you lose the attitude and stop
>> trying to correct or otherwise get smart with me. Oh, and that psy BS
>> nonsense; stop doing that too. It's annoying. I know you don't
>> understand the terminology I used, and that's fine; at this point in
>> time it's not necessary that you do. If it becomes necessary, I'll
>> explain it then.
>
> None of that showed understanding on your part, but it did show your
> anger.

Snit, you were writing about a master on/off switch. I proceeded to get into
the specifics of that switch and why it may not actually isolate the device
from mains power. It won't if it's a latchkey circuit. Now, since you want
to continue with this, I will respond with a more detailed technical reply.
The master switch could be a single throw, single pole, breaking the HOT
side. It could be a single throw, double pole, which breaks the HOT and
neutral side. It could be a single button latchkey circuit; meaning it's low
voltage and isn't going to electrically isolate the machine from mains
power. If it's a mains switch, the single throw double pole would be the
better option.

Now, since you wanted to do what you do, explain what you think a latchkey
switch circuit is. It's nearly self explanatory. Also explain what you think
I mean by single throw single pole and single throw, double pole is. I'm
confident that I didn't misunderstand you, so much so, i'm willing to let
the readers decide which one of us is lacking understanding here.

There's also another issue with what you wrote:

"but did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I
see where you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden
switch or the like it cannot matter."

You must have things reversed, snit. Unless you had an instant switch over
alternate power supply (like a typical UPS) unplugging the machine from
mains will take it offline. There's no way it shut down via switch but kept
going when you unplugged it, unless it had alternate backup power. You
didn't disclose that as being the case, do you need to add that detail to
your story now? :)

> It is simply a fact you failed to understand.

It's simply a fact that one of us clearly has failed here, but, it's not me.
You were writing about a master switch and what you thought it did. You also
claimed you unplugged the unit, but that didn't shut it down' but the switch
did. Uhh, no. Unless the machine had a backup source of power, unplugging it
shut it down.

> And that is not related to the fact I was not sure what you meant by a
Smart Display.

I've made it very clear I think your HD is dying. In that context, SMART
display was obviously related to SMART. I specifically wanted to know if
Disk utility displays SMART DATA. Hence my comment, does it have a smart
display. As in, will it show me SMART data. Didn't you try to claim I took
David too literally when I shouldn't have? Well, you actually did that here,
and you did it intentionally; no doubt to try and set me up so you can
erroneously claim I failed to understand you, as you've tried doing
concerning your fucking power switch.

> Clearly you could not mean that. So maybe there was some software that
> displayed SMART info I did not know of? I thought maybe you wanted me to
> use that software. Heck, maybe it was Linux software.
>
> And it is why I asked for clarification and gave my best guess.

I'm not buying this for a fucking second, you know that right? We were
discussing your HD. I want to know it's SMART status and condition. There's
no fucking way you misunderstood.

>>>> Are you using usb wireless dongles or hard wired mouse and keyboard?
>>>> For the purposes of troubleshooting, we really should be using the
>>>> old hardwired versions, only.
>>>
>>> Hardwired USB.
>>
>> Snit, again, if you have a fucked HD, and I still think you do; you
>> won't be able to succesfully boot off of it, atleast not for long, on
>> any of the partitions you tell it to start from. And that includes your
>> recovery mode. is everything a 'mode' to Apple? FFS.
>
> What does this have to do with USB?

A usb dongle has an initialization delay. That delay could cause the machine
not to catch a combination of keypresses in time to act on it. Due to the HD
condition, your machine could have caught the keypress and tried to follow
your instructions but couldn't boot off the drive partition as requested. It
would appear to you, that it ignored your keypresses when it didn't.

> And even with a dead or missing drive I think you can boot into 'net
> recovery mode (Option+Command+R).

The loader lives on the suspect HD. NO succesful loader, no menu.

> Are these options in firmware or the hard drive. I was thinking
> firmware.

They are presented by the loader, same as with a Linux system. It's not in
firmware, it's on the HD though.

> You said you found it online.

Correct, because I did.

>> don't you you think you should actually know more about how your
>> machine works than me? I mean, before you go and light me up over
>> asking you if it was Intel or Apple based CPU...I may not have known
>> which platform yours used for sure, but I did know your recovery mode
>> was a hidden partition - not firmware hiding in an eeprom someplace.
>
> I made the error of thinking more of the recovery stuff was in firmware.
> And noted at the time I might be in error. Oh, the horror!

You were adament that it was in firmware. Quit downplaying what you stuck to
now, that you've learned otherwise, by me of all people. Now, that's truely
funny. Much more so than my no mouse comment you try to get smart with me
about. That's a hella a far cry from not even knowing how your OS works on
machines you've used for years. I don't run Apple products, but I've already
demonstrated I actually know more about how they work, under the hood, than
you do. Now, THAT IS FUNNY.

>>
>> Dude, enough with the bullshit here.
>
> If you really are going to stop I think that is great.

You can stop with the pivot and project bullshit anytime now, snit.

Post back in this thread once you have MXLinux booting that machine so we
can get to the next stage. That doesn't mean stall me for weeks, either,
snit. Let's not waste time here, let's not jerk either one of us around. We
need to run some diagnostics on that machine. How long before you expect to
be in the same room with it again? any ETA?

[Snit]

On Jan 27, 2024 at 12:19:07 AM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB10617...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:dUFsN.284616$c3Ea....@fx10.iad
> Fri, 26 Jan 2024 03:44:09 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 5:15:44â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB104C3...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>> I cannot imagine ANY article said a 2017 iMac would have a chip that
>> came out in 2020.
>
> I do not care if you believe me or not.

I do not believe you. Not in the slightest. Let me be clear: I think the idea
ANY article said a 2017 iMac might have a chip that came out in 2020 is utter
nonsense. More than that, if on the incredibly off chance you did, or do,
happen to find an article that says that, the fact you would select such
articles to base your "knowledge" on speaks poorly of you. The fact you made
the error, of course, is fine. We ALL make errors. But you let your ego get in
the way and you blame others. It is what you do.

Look below.

1) You lie about me saying I was certain that things were in firmware I never
said I was certain about. Notice you offer no quotes. Nor will you.

2) You pretend there are NOT things in firmware that are (the ability to
recover from the net)

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102603
-----
Or use Option-Command-R or Shift-Option-Command-R to start up from macOS
Recovery over the internet.
-----

The question is if that recovery mode includes the ability to check SMART
status. If it gives access to Disk Utility it does. So I checked into it more:

https://www.idownloadblog.com/2016/02/25/how-to-start-up-your-mac-in-internet-recovery-mode/
-----
What can you do in Internet Recovery Mode?
...
Use Disk Utility to repair or erase your disks to fix issues or for a fresh
installation of macOS.
-----

This also shows screens from it:

https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-reset-a-Mac-when-Command-R-is-not-working

As does this:

https://iboysoft.com/howto/command-r-not-working.html

Well I will be damned. At least that source says I am correct. But let us even
look more:

3) There IS recovery in Firmware:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/12/14/how-to-use-macos-startup-keyboard-commands-to-boot-or-recover
-----
Firmware Recovery Mode
-----

And just as I said, there is Disk Utility as an option... and Disk Utility can
check SMART status. As I said before, there may still be value in booting from
Linux -- the tools there likely give more detailed info... but seems I was
right about at least much of what I said about Firmware on the machine. I have
not double checked and will not until I am back in the same place with it.

Does this mean I made NO errors in past comments? Nope. I did. I called it Net
Boot and not Net Recovery. I am sure I made other errors. But unlike you my
ego does not get in the way of openly admitting to such things.

4) You repeatedly go on about your trust issues and how much you let Carroll's
lies get to you. Be your own man! Think for yourself! Stop buying into his
lies just to help push his drama!

5) Before when you said you were OK with my being specific and asking for
clarity you were lying. Now on something as simple as your use of "SMART
display", a term with a specific meaning I noted you likely did not mean and
then made sure there was understanding (and I was correct) you got bent out of
shape. On something as trivial as that error of yours being called out you
threw a tantrum.

>
>>> Do you really think I'd ask you that question for shits and giggles?
>>
>> I think you have a very hard time admitting to errors
>
> I don't care what you think. You thought your recovery mode was firmware for
> FFS and it's been a hidden partition on the internal HD for years. It's not
> new.

See above.

>
>
>> OK, not going to change the above but here you sorta go against what I
>> said... you note you do not know and figured I might.
>
> I clearly made an error by doing that, because you don't know as much about
> Apple as I assumed you did.

See above.

>
>> You made an error.
>
> Yes, but, it's not the error you're desperately trying to claim I made. I
> told you, the information came up during my search to determine how to boot
> MXLinux with your Apple. If it was Apple based silicon, it was going to
> become a problem. If it was Intel based, no issue. The actual error I made
> was assuming that you're actually an Apple guy with knowledge beyond that of
> an end user.

See above.

>
>> That is far more impressive to me than a lot of the things you go on
>> about.
>
> What you consider to be, or not, impressive doesn't matter to me. your
> psychobabble bullshit isn't relevant, either.

See above.

>
>> I have not withheld anything. I am speaking of what I have noted before
>> -- my past work with it where I was not as careful and do not recall the
>> details.
>
> Okay, so your phrasing was in error. You could have done a better job
> explaining. I understand.

See above.

>
>> This is a bad habit of yours: taking Carroll's word, esp. about
>> me, as anything other than an effort to create drama. You should know
>> that by now.
>
> SC has nothing to do with this, but since you bring him up, I'll take the
> time to educate you. I have had the opportunity to fact check the both of
> you. By doing so, I've been able to determine which of the two of you is
> truthful, and which is not. It's clear, not only to myself, but others as
> well, that you are not the honest one of the two of you. It's nothing to do
> with creating drama for him, that's something YOU are all about; it's why
> you brought him up as you did above.

To be very clear: you just lied your ass off. You did NO such "checking" and
fail to even say what you are lying about checking on. You made it up largely
because of your ego and to appease Carroll and his control of you.

>
>>> I'll try again, for clarification. Have you heard the noises that I've
>>> described coming from the machine that's giving you a problem? I'm not
>>> writing about the normal noises one hears from a mechanical drive,
>>> snit.
>>
>> Sorry, I see where you meant for this specific mahijne and I took it as
> general
>> talk.
>
> Stop trying to skim. You're reading comprehension skills are too poor for
> that.

See above.

>
>>> I can provide more if you need them, snit. It's a hidden partition.
>>> It's not in your firmware. It relies on the internal HD not being in a
>>> physical failing condition; and I suspect it is.
>>
>> Thanks. I was thinking there was a built in pert in firmware but do not
>> see it.
>
> You don't see it, because it isn't. Your only finally conceding on this now
> because of the urls I shared. If i hadn't of, you'd still be trying to argue
> with me.

See above. Heck, I have now show you much of what I thought was in firmware
*is* in firmware (notably the ability to do a 'net boot). You are struggling
with that. Your ego is getting in the way again.

>
>>>>> Recovery mode, is as with Windows systems, another
>>>>> partition on the internal hard disk.
>>>>
>>>> This is not a Windows machine.
>>>
>>> That doesn't matter. It's doing it the same fucking way as a Windows
>>> machine with a recovery partition does. It's not in your firmware, it's
>>> on the internal HD. The same drive the OS won't boot from. You cannot
>>> fucking trust it - the media it's sitting on is suspect.
>>
>> The point being there are things unique to both.
>
> No, weasel, that's not the point.

That was my point. Your challenges with reading are tied to your ego here.

> The point, as is clearly left above, is
> that your Apple and a modern Windows machine use the same type of 'tech' for
> their recovery options. They're BOTH USING HIDDEN PARTITIONS, as I told you,
> from the fucking jump. You, NOT knowing this, tried to dismiss the
> comparison. Now that you can no longer claim it's not exactly what I said it
> was, you're trying to change what the point was. I'm not going to let you do
> that.

What is the equivalent of the Command+Option+R on most PCs with Windows?
Personally I think you are lying when you say they are much the same -- but I
am open to being proved wrong.

>
>> In the past. Booting from the 'net. But with what we have done now --
>> no. I have been pretty clear with what I have been doing.
>
> Net boot has been depreciated for years. I doubt you were doing that with
> that machine specifically.

I already noted I meant Net Recovery and not Net Boot. Not sure how you missed
this. I missed where you showed it was deprecated. Frankly I think you made
that up. I will test it when I am back with the machine. If I am not able to
get the keyboard to work, of course, I will not be able to use this.

>
>>> Has something changed, snit? Or, are you leaving out details?
>>
>> No. You added some. :)
>
> The only details I added was teaching you how recovery mode actually works
> and where it's actually located. It's been this way for a long time, too. So
> what is your excuse for not knowing this?

See above.

>
>> But the 'net one is not on the drive.
>
> No, but the loader, I will call GRUB for simplicity, is.

Be clear:

1) Calling it GRUB is inaccurate.

2) Even more, Are you saying that the Command+Option+R feature requires the
boot drive?

> And it's
> responsible for bringing up your menu for the options. If it can't boot, you
> get no menu.

Do you still claim this is true even for Command+Option+R?

>
>>> It's about the same as it is for a modern PC actually. Download the
>>> ISO, write the ISO,
>>
>> The tools here are not the same on a Mac.
>
> I didn't say the tools were, either. I said the concept is the same, the
> steps you take in general, the order in which you do it.

Be clear with what you think Command+Option+R does.

>
>>> :) And I'm supposed to know your itinerary how exactly?
>>
>> EXACTLY! That is my point. I keep telling you I am not going to be near
>> the machine. I am even giving you rough timing. I did end up leaving a
>> bit earlier than expected.
>
> You know I don't really believe any of that you're traveling nonsense right?

Above I discuss your trust issues and the challenges you have because you
foolishly believe Carroll. This is a fine example.

> Driving, to flying? :) C'mon.

I have not said if I am driving of flying. I have noted flying back. I am
being purposely vague about my location because it is irrelevant and you have
directly claimed to be contacting people in my life, as has Carroll in the
past. Not going to help you with your doxxing. Maybe that is what this is
really about for you -- not the computer (which you clearly are not
knowledgable about) but a fishing attempt to get info about me.

>
>>
>> No.
>
> Yes, that's exactly what you're trying to do.

See above.

Assuming you mean. Latch Circuit, I said nothing of such.

But you assume so based on your poor reading and go on and on and on about it.

You spent time and effort and expect ME to spend time and effort about
something 100% irrelevant to the discussion just because your ego cannot
accept you failed to understand what I said. That speaks poorly of you.

> Now, since you want
> to continue with this, I will respond with a more detailed technical reply.
> The master switch could be a single throw, single pole, breaking the HOT
> side. It could be a single throw, double pole, which breaks the HOT and
> neutral side. It could be a single button latchkey circuit; meaning it's low
> voltage and isn't going to electrically isolate the machine from mains
> power. If it's a mains switch, the single throw double pole would be the
> better option.
>
> Now, since you wanted to do what you do, explain what you think a latchkey
> switch circuit is. It's nearly self explanatory. Also explain what you think
> I mean by single throw single pole and single throw, double pole is. I'm
> confident that I didn't misunderstand you, so much so, i'm willing to let
> the readers decide which one of us is lacking understanding here.
>
> There's also another issue with what you wrote:
>
> "but did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I
> see where you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden
> switch or the like it cannot matter."
>
> You must have things reversed, snit.

I do not.

> Unless you had an instant switch over
> alternate power supply (like a typical UPS) unplugging the machine from
> mains will take it offline.

Nobody said otherwise.

> There's no way it shut down via switch but kept
> going when you unplugged it, unless it had alternate backup power.

Nobody said otherwise.

> You
> didn't disclose that as being the case, do you need to add that detail to
> your story now? :)

I did not "disclose" that your ignorant claim was absurd before you made your
ignorant claim. Now, given how you have made your ignorant claim, I am being
very clear you claim is flat out wrong and absurd.

>
>
>> It is simply a fact you failed to understand.
>
> It's simply a fact that one of us clearly has failed here, but, it's not me.
> You were writing about a master switch

You made this up.

> and what you thought it did. You also
> claimed you unplugged the unit, but that didn't shut it down'

You made this up.

> but the switch
> did. Uhh, no. Unless the machine had a backup source of power, unplugging it
> shut it down.

You are going on about the things you made up.

>
>> And that is not related to the fact I was not sure what you meant by a
> Smart Display.
>
> I've made it very clear I think your HD is dying. In that context, SMART
> display was obviously related to SMART.

As I suggested... but wanted to be clear with. Again, as discussed above, you
pretended it was OK for me to ask for clarity but the reality is your ego is
too delicate to allow you to accept my doing so.

> I specifically wanted to know if
> Disk utility displays SMART DATA. Hence my comment, does it have a smart
> display. As in, will it show me SMART data. Didn't you try to claim I took
> David too literally when I shouldn't have? Well, you actually did that here,
> and you did it intentionally; no doubt to try and set me up so you can
> erroneously claim I failed to understand you, as you've tried doing
> concerning your fucking power switch.

See above.

>
>
>> Clearly you could not mean that. So maybe there was some software that
>> displayed SMART info I did not know of? I thought maybe you wanted me to
>> use that software. Heck, maybe it was Linux software.
>>
>> And it is why I asked for clarification and gave my best guess.
>
> I'm not buying this for a fucking second, you know that right?

I understand you have a challenge here. Sure.

> We were
> discussing your HD. I want to know it's SMART status and condition. There's
> no fucking way you misunderstood.
>
>
>>>>> Are you using usb wireless dongles or hard wired mouse and keyboard?
>>>>> For the purposes of troubleshooting, we really should be using the
>>>>> old hardwired versions, only.
>>>>
>>>> Hardwired USB.
>>>
>>> Snit, again, if you have a fucked HD, and I still think you do; you
>>> won't be able to succesfully boot off of it, atleast not for long, on
>>> any of the partitions you tell it to start from. And that includes your
>>> recovery mode. is everything a 'mode' to Apple? FFS.
>>
>> What does this have to do with USB?
>
> A usb dongle has an initialization delay. That delay could cause the machine
> not to catch a combination of keypresses in time to act on it. Due to the HD
> condition, your machine could have caught the keypress and tried to follow
> your instructions but couldn't boot off the drive partition as requested. It
> would appear to you, that it ignored your keypresses when it didn't.

Even without a hard drive the computer can use USB.

>
>
>> And even with a dead or missing drive I think you can boot into 'net
>> recovery mode (Option+Command+R).
>
> The loader lives on the suspect HD. NO succesful loader, no menu.

You are still sticking to the idea that Command+Option+R requites the hard
drive. Curious.

>
>> Are these options in firmware or the hard drive. I was thinking
>> firmware.
>
> They are presented by the loader, same as with a Linux system. It's not in
> firmware, it's on the HD though.

Even with what you have been shown you are sticking to this?

>
>> You said you found it online.
>
> Correct, because I did.

Yet you cannot show the source that says Command+Option+R requires a hard
drive, no more than you can show ANY site that says a 2017 machine might have
come with a chip that came out in 2020.

>
>>> don't you you think you should actually know more about how your
>>> machine works than me? I mean, before you go and light me up over
>>> asking you if it was Intel or Apple based CPU...I may not have known
>>> which platform yours used for sure, but I did know your recovery mode
>>> was a hidden partition - not firmware hiding in an eeprom someplace.
>>
>> I made the error of thinking more of the recovery stuff was in firmware.
>> And noted at the time I might be in error. Oh, the horror!
>
> You were adament that it was in firmware.

I was clear I could be in error. I have no done more research and it backs the
idea that the options tied to Command+Option+R are in firmware. I still accept
there is some small chance those sources are all in error. Seems unlikely
though.

> Quit downplaying what you stuck to
> now, that you've learned otherwise, by me of all people. Now, that's truely
> funny. Much more so than my no mouse comment you try to get smart with me
> about.

Touched a nerve that I found your pride in using a computer with no mouse to
be so funny.

<XnsABEF47...@rSNu6VvwL.gxU66>:
-----
My first computer didn't even know what a fucking mouse
was. You really are playing games with the wrong one.
-----

That still is hilarious. The pride and arrogance over something so trivial.
LOL!

Almost as funny as this one (stumbled into it as I looked for that):

<XnsACC9F3...@z9kfcl9n7KHDpF0eI.64L>
-----
Yea, I call bullshit on that. Driver media doesn't have a valid
boot sector present. As a result, the machine wouldn't have
refused to reboot because the disk was left behind.
-----

Of course machine can fail to boot because of such a disk left behind in their
drives. You went on and on and on and trying to dig your way out of that bit
of ignorance on your part. Again: you making such errors is just part of being
human. Your ego and arrogance and inability to admit to such errors is both
sad and hilarious.

> That's a hella a far cry from not even knowing how your OS works on
> machines you've used for years. I don't run Apple products, but I've already
> demonstrated I actually know more about how they work, under the hood, than
> you do. Now, THAT IS FUNNY.

Command+Option+R.

Describe again how that works and what the PC equal is. :)

>
>>>
>>> Dude, enough with the bullshit here.
>>
>> If you really are going to stop I think that is great.
>
> You can stop with the pivot and project bullshit anytime now, snit.

I get you want to blame me for your bullshit. I have no obligation to accept
such nonsense.

>
> Post back in this thread once you have MXLinux booting that machine so we
> can get to the next stage.

I will first do the Command+Option+R boot. If that does not work then there
are clearly bigger issues than the drive. But I will try MXLinux.

> That doesn't mean stall me for weeks, either,

I might be gone for weeks. By current plans I will be gone for most of Feb.

> snit. Let's not waste time here, let's not jerk either one of us around.

If you can stop that would be great.

> We
> need to run some diagnostics on that machine. How long before you expect to
> be in the same room with it again? any ETA?

I should be there for a few days next week, but will be there just those few
days and will be running around a lot with other obligations. I will try to do
both the Command+Option+R and MXLinux stuff when I am there. After that I will
be gone much of Feb.

This is made harder by you and Carroll actively contacting people in my life
and otherwise harassing and doxxing me -- means I cannot be as open with
specifics as I otherwise would be, in public here or in private. As it is I am
being more open than I should be. There are consequences to your poor behavior
that are currently frustrating you. Maybe you can take a lesson from that.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:4c8tN.391356$83n7....@fx18.iad
Sat, 27 Jan 2024 14:13:20 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 27, 2024 at 12:19:07鈂u20ac疉M MST, "Gremlin" wrote

> <XnsB10617...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:dUFsN.284616$c3Ea....@fx10.iad
>> Fri, 26 Jan 2024 03:44:09 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>

>>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 5:15:44芒\u20ac呕PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>>> <XnsB104C3...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>
>>> I cannot imagine ANY article said a 2017 iMac would have a chip that
>>> came out in 2020.
>>
>> I do not care if you believe me or not.
>
> I do not believe you.

I'm fine with that. You can verify the claims for yourself by entering the
same search query into google as I did. Maybe I'll share the query once you
are 100% sure I was making it up. It's about the timing, you know.

> 1) You lie about me saying I was certain that things were in firmware I
> never said I was certain about. Notice you offer no quotes. Nor will
> you.

Umm, no snit, anyone who wants can review the thread and see for themselves
how sure you were about what you were wrong about.

> Or use Option-Command-R or Shift-Option-Command-R to start up from macOS
> Recovery over the internet.

That's the equ of quick boot for a PC, snit. It allows you to temporarily
change the startup drive without changing the system configuration in UEFI
or system BIOS if it's in legacy mode. I wasn't discussing quick boot, I was
explaining (ad nausem) that your recovery mode is a hidden partition on the
same internal hard disk as your OS lives.

> Use Disk Utility to repair or erase your disks to fix issues or for a
> fresh installation of macOS.

It's not going to be able to repair the problem I think that drive has, snit.

> Well I will be damned. At least that source says I am correct. But let
> us even look more:
>
> 3) There IS recovery in Firmware:

That's your pc equ of quick boot as I explained above. That is NOT what I've
been writing about.

> As I said before, there may still be
> value in booting from Linux -- the tools there likely give more detailed
> info.

Let's save both of ourselves some time here. Are you going to do exactly as
I tell you to do, and, nothing else unless i tell you or not? A simple yes
or no is all I want for an answer here. Yes or no.

> but seems I was right about at least much of what I said about
> Firmware on the machine.

No, you're confusing quick boot with the recovery partition, they are not
the same thing and I haven't been writing about your quick boot options.
It's there so you can change the boot device for that session, it doesn't
change the system configuration to run off that selection first. It's the
same thing as a quickboot on the PCs, not to be confused with the quickboot
uefi settings; it's a bad naming convention. It's f10 key on this particular
machine I'm using. If I press it during post, it'll present the options menu
and let me pick the device I want to boot the machine from, but, it's only
going to do that for that session. Once I power down or restart the
computer, unless i hit f10 again, it's going to follow the boot order
already specified in the UEFI configuration.

> Does this mean I made NO errors in past comments? Nope. I did. I called
> it Net Boot and not Net Recovery. I am sure I made other errors. But
> unlike you my ego does not get in the way of openly admitting to such
> things.

You made all kinds of errors, and you're making more in a silly effort to
talk down to me.

> 4) You repeatedly go on about your trust issues and how much you let
> Carroll's lies get to you. Be your own man! Think for yourself! Stop
> buying into his lies just to help push his drama!

Do you routinely pull things from your asshole like this?

> 5) Before when you said you were OK with my being specific and asking
> for clarity you were lying.

I'd offer to buy you a dictionary, but, we both know you don't have the
reading comprehension level to parse it...

Now on something as simple as your use of
> "SMART display", a term with a specific meaning I noted you likely did
> not mean and then made sure there was understanding (and I was correct)
> you got bent out of shape. On something as trivial as that error of
> yours being called out you threw a tantrum.

I didn't get bent out of anything. You clearly have a problem reading for
context. We've been discussing a drive, I've stated several times now what I
think that drives condition is. So, there wouldn't have been any reason for
you to think SMART was anything else. Atleast, not if you were applying
logic.

>> I don't care what you think. You thought your recovery mode was
>> firmware for FFS and it's been a hidden partition on the internal HD
>> for years. It's not new.
>
> See above.

Quick Boot (I don't know or care Apples specific term for it) is not the
same thing as your recovery partition. It is not what I've been explaining
to you. Or trying to rather.

>> I clearly made an error by doing that, because you don't know as much
>> about Apple as I assumed you did.
>
> See above.

Yep. You're still fucking up, and you don't even realize it. I'm not
suprised now why your business failed, snit. It's quite clear, downright
painfully obvious that you don't know much about your own rig beyond that of
a typical Apple end user. Apple end users are a special breed...

I'm going to go ahead and snip your repetitive nonsense where you show how
lost you already are.

>> SC has nothing to do with this, but since you bring him up, I'll take
>> the time to educate you. I have had the opportunity to fact check the
>> both of you. By doing so, I've been able to determine which of the two
>> of you is truthful, and which is not. It's clear, not only to myself,
>> but others as well, that you are not the honest one of the two of you.
>> It's nothing to do with creating drama for him, that's something YOU
>> are all about; it's why you brought him up as you did above.
>
> To be very clear: you just lied your ass off.

Nope, I didn't. I know for a fact what sort of person you are with regard to
being honest. I have 1st hand experience dealing with some lies you
specifically wrote about me. Not just the floodbot story, but also the story
where you claimed I'd written a direct lie about David asking you to check
that cell number against a couple of online phonebook urls he provided you.
You have a known track record, going back decades, snit. FFS, there's
actually a website that was dedicated to warning people about you; going so
far as to provide examples of what you do. And, it's very *easy* to use that
list and damn near ANY post you author and see it's true. You typically do
several of the things on your list in the same post. It's a routine habit
for you.

I stand by what I wrote.

> You did NO such "checking" and fail to even say what you are lying about
checking on.

I've checked you out several times, snit. I know you claim you're an honest
and honorable person, but I've got posts you authored which more than
slightly dispute your own claim.

> You made it up largely because of your ego and to appease Carroll and his
control of
> you.

Oh sure, the old classic; divide and conquer routine. I didn't make anything
up about you. You have a very well known reputation, snit. And if you think
the lists are too old to still be valid, well there's a recent thread here:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.computer.workshop/c/S-pznwmU_pg/m/FYlJSMeIAwA
J

You're all over the fucking thing, lying your ass off about your own public
court records. David brooks couldn't even give you shade there snit.
Especially when I provided him with your birthdate and full name. He entered
the information into that website and got those records; your criminal
records, rofl. The same things you denied denied denied were yours.

>> Stop trying to skim. You're reading comprehension skills are too poor
>> for that.
>
> See above.

No need to, you're digging a deeper hole for yourself and you don't even
realize it. I wasn't writing about the Quick Boot or boot device selection
menu; I've been writing about the recovery partition on your internal hard
drive that you mistakenly assumed was stored in firmware, and was NOT a
partition. It's *always* been a partition. Your machine does have what is a
loader, too. It's the modern day equ of the bootsector region. The loader
isn't part of post, the boot device selection menu isn't stored on local
media on your mac or a PC.

If I press F10 on this machine during post, I'm presented with a list of
bootable media I can pick from. Internal HD, external USB port, dvdrw, etc.
Your mac has the same functionality. When I told you it does things like a
Windows machine, I wasn't kidding. Not only does it use a hidden partition
to use recovery mode, it also has a quick boot or boot device selection menu
(it goes by other names too) feature just like a PC; that lets you
temporarily change the device the machine will try to start from. You'll be
using this later if you ever get that USB stick written to boot off of it.
As long as you've inserted it prior to turning the machine on, when you
bring up your boot device selection menu, it should be available for you to
choose it.

>> You don't see it, because it isn't. Your only finally conceding on this
>> now because of the urls I shared. If i hadn't of, you'd still be trying
>> to argue with me.
>
> See above.

You might want to take your own advice on this one.

> Heck, I have now show you much of what I thought was in
> firmware *is* in firmware (notably the ability to do a 'net boot). You
> are struggling with that. Your ego is getting in the way again.

You've shown me what I already knew - which is why I told you they are like
Windows machines. You have a boot device selection menu (aka known as Quick
Boot on some PC rigs). That is NOT your recovery mode. That is NOT the
loader. I'm not struggling with any of this. All of this is old hat shit for
me. By all means though, do keep going. You have no idea that you're
exposing exceptional ignorance concerning not just PCs, but also gear you
use and praise so much, Apple. You really are an end user. I was half joking
about that originally, just riding you a little; but now, sadly, I've
learned it wasn't a joke, I hit a bullseye and just didn't realize it at the
time.

I thought you were a tech (of some kind) atleast in so far as Apple was
concerned, but, now I'm finding out that I greatly over estimated what your
knowledge and skillset actually is. I don't normally make mistakes as big as
this one. But, I clearly have. All this time, I thought you were a true
Apple fanboy; a techie level knowledgeable Apple person. Now, I find out, as
you're trying to spin things around, you aren't even that. You really *don't
know* how that fucking computer actually works.

> Assuming you mean. Latch Circuit, I said nothing of such.

Oh cute, you googled it, but obviously didn't comprehend the results that
came for it.

>> Unless you had an instant switch over
>> alternate power supply (like a typical UPS) unplugging the machine from
>> mains will take it offline.
>
> Nobody said otherwise.

I see. You are known for lying via omission, infact, it's one of your
trademarked methods of trolling.

>> You
>> didn't disclose that as being the case, do you need to add that detail
>> to your story now? :)
>
> I did not "disclose" that your ignorant claim was absurd before you made
> your ignorant claim.

So, you do need to add that detail, because you of course, as you described
what you seemed to remember; you didn't think it important to include the
UPS. Cute snit.

> Now, given how you have made your ignorant claim, I
> am being very clear you claim is flat out wrong and absurd.

My 'claim' about electrical isolation is not wrong snit. What's sad though
is you don't understand anything I wrote about subject.

>>
>>
>>> It is simply a fact you failed to understand.
>>
>> It's simply a fact that one of us clearly has failed here, but, it's
>> not me. You were writing about a master switch
>
> You made this up.

Uhh...

<I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe
there is a little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems
odd... but did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I
see where you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden
switch or the like it cannot matter.>

is what you wrote, there, snit. That little switch is known as a master
switch. I procedeed to tell you the three frequently used/most common
variations of it; and you clearly know fuckall about any of them. Even a
single throw, single pole switch is beyond your understanding.

>> and what you thought it did. You also
>> claimed you unplugged the unit, but that didn't shut it down'
>
> You made this up.

Your own fucking words are above, but in case you need them fact checked,
here's the fucking MID to your post:
MID: <P6orN.290228$xHn7....@fx14.iad>
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=170638788100

I wrote this

> Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral line is
> seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.

and you responded to me with this:

I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe there is
a
little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems odd... but did
have
it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I see where you are
coming
from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden switch or the like it cannot
matter.

>> but the switch
>> did. Uhh, no. Unless the machine had a backup source of power,
>> unplugging it shut it down.
>
> You are going on about the things you made up.

You're contradicting what you wrote earlier in the very same reply, snit.
Remember when I suggested you had things reversed?

>>
>>> And that is not related to the fact I was not sure what you meant by a
>> Smart Display.
>>
>> I've made it very clear I think your HD is dying. In that context,
>> SMART display was obviously related to SMART.
>

> but wanted to be clear with.

I don't believe you. I'm starting to suspect SC was correct in warning me
that you'd play games.
I think you tried to get some points by trying to take issue with what I
called it. And, It's not the first time you've tried doing the same thing
here...

> Again, as discussed above, you pretended it was OK for me to ask for
clarity but the reality
> is your ego is too delicate to allow you to accept my doing so.

Yea, umm, no. You are clearly trying to jerk me around.

>> I'm not buying this for a fucking second, you know that right?
>
> I understand you have a challenge here. Sure.

Then you don't understand.

>> A usb dongle has an initialization delay. That delay could cause the
>> machine not to catch a combination of keypresses in time to act on it.
>> Due to the HD condition, your machine could have caught the keypress
>> and tried to follow your instructions but couldn't boot off the drive
>> partition as requested. It would appear to you, that it ignored your
>> keypresses when it didn't.
>
> Even without a hard drive the computer can use USB.

Which has NOTHING to do with what I wrote.

>>
>>
>>> And even with a dead or missing drive I think you can boot into 'net
>>> recovery mode (Option+Command+R).
>>
>> The loader lives on the suspect HD. NO succesful loader, no menu.
>
> You are still sticking to the idea that Command+Option+R requites the
> hard drive. Curious.

Now you're the one making shit up. That's the equ of the F10 key on this PC;
it brings up a quick boot or boot device selection menu. I can switch the
startup device by using that feature, but it doesn't 'stick' and by that I
mean when I turn it off or restart it, it's going to boot according to the
bootable device start order it's already configured with. The F10 allows me
to override that, temporarily, without having to change system
configuration.
I didn't tell you it's doing it like a Windows machine for shits and
giggles, snit.

The loader is NOT generating the screen you're seeing when you use that key
combination; the loader doesn't even have control passed to it yet. FFS
you're one ignorant SOB, no doubt about it. Arrogant and fuckin dumb. I'd
say borderline stupid actually since you don't seem to possess an ability to
learn new things or concepts.

>> Correct, because I did.
>
> Yet you cannot show the source that says Command+Option+R requires a
> hard drive

WTF? I never stated what you're claiming here, dishonest one.

>> You were adament that it was in firmware.
>
> I was clear I could be in error.

Not originally you weren't. it's okay though, you're still fucking up in
your reply here. You confused the boot selection menu for that of the
loader. You're an idiot.

>> Post back in this thread once you have MXLinux booting that machine so
>> we can get to the next stage.
>
> I will first do the Command+Option+R boot. If that does not work then
> there are clearly bigger issues than the drive. But I will try MXLinux.

Now we get to to the meat. The actual reason I bothered to respond, infact.

Snit, Are you going to do exactly what I tell you to do, and only that, or
not? All I need is a Yes or No. I need to know, before I waste anymore time
with you, are you going to follow my fucking instructions or not?

>> That doesn't mean stall me for weeks, either,
>
> I might be gone for weeks. By current plans I will be gone for most of
> Feb.

How convenient. It's just a coincidence that as soon as I start asking
specific questions and proceed to the first thing I want you to do, you're
all of a sudden far far too busy to do that. Snit, shit like this is why SC
has credibility here and you don't. He 'predicted' that you would be trying
to pull some shit as soon as I started actually doing the tech thing with
you. You're in way over your head already, we can all see that, snit.

> I should be there for a few days next week, but will be there just those
> few days and will be running around a lot with other obligations. I will
> try to do both the Command+Option+R and MXLinux stuff when I am there.
> After that I will be gone much of Feb.

I've specifically told you that I want you to boot the machine from the
MXLinux USB, not use any tools you think are built into the machine. Are you
going to do what I tell you to do, and only what I tell you to do, or not? A
simple yes or no is all that's required.


[nonsense excuse snipped]

[Snit]

On Jan 27, 2024 at 1:54:15 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB106A1...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:4c8tN.391356$83n7....@fx18.iad
> Sat, 27 Jan 2024 14:13:20 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 27, 2024 at 12:19:07โ\u20acฏAM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB10617...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:dUFsN.284616$c3Ea....@fx10.iad
>>> Fri, 26 Jan 2024 03:44:09 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>

>>>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 5:15:44รข\u20acลปPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>>>> <XnsB104C3...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>>
>>>> I cannot imagine ANY article said a 2017 iMac would have a chip that
>>>> came out in 2020.
>>>
>>> I do not care if you believe me or not.
>>
>> I do not believe you.
>
> I'm fine with that. You can verify the claims for yourself by entering the
> same search query into google as I did. Maybe I'll share the query once you
> are 100% sure I was making it up. It's about the timing, you know.

Here you try to reverse the burden of proof and ask me to hunt for something
you made up, misunderstood, or foolishly believed even though it was on an
absurd site. Either way, you either lied or trusted a site you should not have
and did not double check. And, really, why would ANYONE think a 2017 computer
would have a chip that was first released in 2020.

You made an error. You are not adult enough to admit it. Your ego has gotten
in your way AGAIN. Why do you allow that to happen so often?

>
>
>> 1) You lie about me saying I was certain that things were in firmware I
>> never said I was certain about. Notice you offer no quotes. Nor will
>> you.
>
> Umm, no snit, anyone who wants can review the thread and see for themselves
> how sure you were about what you were wrong about.

So no quote. Again you are lying. You do that a lot.

>
>> Or use Option-Command-R or Shift-Option-Command-R to start up from macOS
>> Recovery over the internet.
>
> That's the equ of quick boot for a PC, snit. It allows you to temporarily
> change the startup drive without changing the system configuration in UEFI
> or system BIOS if it's in legacy mode. I wasn't discussing quick boot, I was
> explaining (ad nausem) that your recovery mode is a hidden partition on the
> same internal hard disk as your OS lives.

Tell me you know nothing of net booting without telling me you know nothing of
net booting. LOL!

>> Use Disk Utility to repair or erase your disks to fix issues or for a
>> fresh installation of macOS.
>
> It's not going to be able to repair the problem I think that drive has, snit.

Did you think someone said otherwise?

>
>> Well I will be damned. At least that source says I am correct. But let
>> us even look more:
>>
>> 3) There IS recovery in Firmware:
>
> That's your pc equ of quick boot as I explained above. That is NOT what I've
> been writing about.

You snipped this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

2) You pretend there are NOT things in firmware that are (the ability to
recover from the net)

https://support.apple.com/en-us/102603
-----

Or use Option-Command-R or Shift-Option-Command-R to start up from macOS
Recovery over the internet.

-----

The question is if that recovery mode includes the ability to check SMART
status. If it gives access to Disk Utility it does. So I checked into it more:

https://www.idownloadblog.com/2016/02/25/how-to-start-up-your-mac-in-internet-recovery-mode/
-----
What can you do in Internet Recovery Mode?
...

Use Disk Utility to repair or erase your disks to fix issues or for a fresh
installation of macOS.

-----

This also shows screens from it:

https://www.quora.com/How-do-I-reset-a-Mac-when-Command-R-is-not-working

As does this:

https://iboysoft.com/howto/command-r-not-working.html

Well I will be damned. At least that source says I am correct. But let us even
look more:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Even when I show you sources you run. Scared. You know you screwed up but your
ego will not let you admit it.

>
>> As I said before, there may still be
>> value in booting from Linux -- the tools there likely give more detailed
>> info.
>
> Let's save both of ourselves some time here. Are you going to do exactly as
> I tell you to do, and, nothing else unless i tell you or not? A simple yes
> or no is all I want for an answer here. Yes or no.

I am going to try the net recovery... one, to see if it will happen but also
now because it will be fun to take a pic and shove it in your face (assuming
USB is even working and I can get it to do that).

Then I will do the Linux boot.

>
>> but seems I was right about at least much of what I said about
>> Firmware on the machine.
>
> No, you're confusing quick boot with the recovery partition,

But only in ways you cannot quote... so shove that claim up your ass.

> they are not
> the same thing and I haven't been writing about your quick boot options.
> It's there so you can change the boot device for that session, it doesn't
> change the system configuration to run off that selection first. It's the
> same thing as a quickboot on the PCs, not to be confused with the quickboot
> uefi settings; it's a bad naming convention. It's f10 key on this particular
> machine I'm using. If I press it during post, it'll present the options menu
> and let me pick the device I want to boot the machine from, but, it's only
> going to do that for that session. Once I power down or restart the
> computer, unless i hit f10 again, it's going to follow the boot order
> already specified in the UEFI configuration.

Off you go babbling off topic as if this is new info.

>
>> Does this mean I made NO errors in past comments? Nope. I did. I called
>> it Net Boot and not Net Recovery. I am sure I made other errors. But
>> unlike you my ego does not get in the way of openly admitting to such
>> things.
>
> You made all kinds of errors, and you're making more in a silly effort to
> talk down to me.

No quotes so shove your claims up your ass.


What you snipped:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

3) There IS recovery in Firmware:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/12/14/how-to-use-macos-startup-keyboard-commands-to-boot-or-recover
-----
Firmware Recovery Mode
-----

And just as I said, there is Disk Utility as an option... and Disk Utility can
check SMART status. As I said before, there may still be value in booting from
Linux -- the tools there likely give more detailed info... but seems I was
right about at least much of what I said about Firmware on the machine. I have
not double checked and will not until I am back in the same place with it.

Does this mean I made NO errors in past comments? Nope. I did. I called it Net
Boot and not Net Recovery. I am sure I made other errors. But unlike you my
ego does not get in the way of openly admitting to such things.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Proves you wrong and you do not like it. Whatever.

>
>> 4) You repeatedly go on about your trust issues and how much you let
>> Carroll's lies get to you. Be your own man! Think for yourself! Stop
>> buying into his lies just to help push his drama!

You ignored this. Just ran. You have no honest reply.

>
> Do you routinely pull things from your asshole like this?
>
>> 5) Before when you said you were OK with my being specific and asking for

>> clarity you were lying. Now on something as simple as your use of "SMART

>> display", a term with a specific meaning I noted you likely did not mean and
>> then made sure there was understanding (and I was correct) you got bent out of
>> shape. On something as trivial as that error of yours being called out you
>> threw a tantrum.
>
> I didn't get bent out of anything.

Clear and direct lie from you. You get angry and you lie and your ego gets in
the way.

> You clearly have a problem reading for
> context. We've been discussing a drive, I've stated several times now what I
> think that drives condition is.

Your need to repeat yourself is an issue for you. Sure. Do you have plans on
dealing with this challenge? I do commend you for admitting to it.

> So, there wouldn't have been any reason for
> you to think SMART was anything else. Atleast, not if you were applying
> logic.

As I said, you got bet out of shape when asked for clarification EVEN WHEN I
made the right assumption and never attacked you for your error. Your issue
here is your ego, not me.

>
>>> I don't care what you think. You thought your recovery mode was
>>> firmware for FFS and it's been a hidden partition on the internal HD
>>> for years. It's not new.
>>
>> See above.
>
> Quick Boot (I don't know or care Apples specific term for it) is not the
> same thing as your recovery partition. It is not what I've been explaining
> to you. Or trying to rather.

See above.

>
>>> I clearly made an error by doing that, because you don't know as much
>>> about Apple as I assumed you did.
>>
>> See above.
>
> Yep. You're still fucking up, and you don't even realize it. I'm not
> suprised now why your business failed, snit. It's quite clear, downright
> painfully obvious that you don't know much about your own rig beyond that of
> a typical Apple end user. Apple end users are a special breed...
>
> I'm going to go ahead and snip your repetitive nonsense where you show how
> lost you already are.

See above (and notice you are again bent out of shape and fabricating stories
about me).

>
>>> SC has nothing to do with this, but since you bring him up, I'll take
>>> the time to educate you. I have had the opportunity to fact check the
>>> both of you. By doing so, I've been able to determine which of the two
>>> of you is truthful, and which is not. It's clear, not only to myself,
>>> but others as well, that you are not the honest one of the two of you.
>>> It's nothing to do with creating drama for him, that's something YOU
>>> are all about; it's why you brought him up as you did above.
>>

>> To be very clear: you just lied your ass off. You did NO such "checking" and
>> fail to even say what you are lying about checking on. You made it up largely

>> because of your ego and to appease Carroll and his control of you.

You ignored this. You do that a lot -- get called out on specific lies and
just run.

> Nope, I didn't. I know for a fact what sort of person you are with regard to
> being honest. I have 1st hand experience dealing with some lies you
> specifically wrote about me. Not just the floodbot story, but also the story
> where you claimed I'd written a direct lie about David asking you to check
> that cell number against a couple of online phonebook urls he provided you.
> You have a known track record, going back decades, snit. FFS, there's
> actually a website that was dedicated to warning people about you; going so
> far as to provide examples of what you do. And, it's very *easy* to use that
> list and damn near ANY post you author and see it's true. You typically do
> several of the things on your list in the same post. It's a routine habit
> for you.
>
> I stand by what I wrote.

You standing by lies and you throw tantrums is about you. Not me.

>>> Stop trying to skim. You're reading comprehension skills are too poor
>>> for that.
>>
>> See above.
>
> No need to,

You keep lying. I have told you before I am happy to accept your help but have
asked you to keep your trolling, lying, attacking, and ego out of the thread.

You are sadly not capable. I am going to be sniping your ego crap... and when
it goes on too long that might mean snipping relevant info. You are working
against your stated goal. This shows you have weak troubleshooting skills.

>
>> Assuming you mean. Latch Circuit, I said nothing of such.
>
> Oh cute, you googled it, but obviously didn't comprehend the results that
> came for it.

I said nothing of a Latch Circuit, hence why you cannot quote my doing so. You
again got confused.

>
>>> Unless you had an instant switch over
>>> alternate power supply (like a typical UPS) unplugging the machine from
>>> mains will take it offline.
>>
>> Nobody said otherwise.
>
> I see.

So why bring it up out of the blue. It is working against the stated goal of
the thread. You go off topic a lot.

>
>>> You
>>> didn't disclose that as being the case, do you need to add that detail
>>> to your story now? :)
>>
>> I did not "disclose" that your ignorant claim was absurd before you made
>> your ignorant claim.
>
> So, you do need to add that detail, because you of course, as you described
> what you seemed to remember; you didn't think it important to include the
> UPS. Cute snit.

What value do you get in making up a story about a UPS? Not a rhetorical
question.

>>> It's simply a fact that one of us clearly has failed here, but, it's
>>> not me. You were writing about a master switch
>>
>> You made this up.
>
> Uhh...

It is simply a fact I never said a damned thing about a "Master Switch". You
made that up, as you did comments about a UPS.

>>> and what you thought it did. You also
>>> claimed you unplugged the unit, but that didn't shut it down'
>>
>> You made this up.
>
> Your own fucking words are above,

But never anything about unplugging it and it not shutting down! That is
absurd.

Are you really claiming your comprehension is THAT poor?

> but in case you need them fact checked,
> here's the fucking MID to your post:
> MID: <P6orN.290228$xHn7....@fx14.iad>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=170638788100

See: not a word to back that absurd claim of yours. NOT. ONE. WORD.

>
> I wrote this
>> Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral line is
>> seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.
>
> and you responded to me with this:
>
> I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe there is
> a
> little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems odd... but did
> have
> it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I see where you are
> coming
> from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden switch or the like it cannot
> matter.

And you misunderstood that so badly you thought it means I unplugged it and it
stayed on? LOL!

OK, your issue is not me but your piss poor reading comprehension. LOL! Thanks
for admitting it.

>>>> And that is not related to the fact I was not sure what you meant by a
>>> Smart Display.
>>>
>>> I've made it very clear I think your HD is dying. In that context,
>>> SMART display was obviously related to SMART.
>>
>> but wanted to be clear with.
>
> I don't believe you.

Your issues with focus, honesty, and trust are going to make this
troubleshooting MUCH harder... but I will continue to give you chances. If
nothing else at this point you have become comical.

* You have no clue about the built in disk utility (at least reportedly in
firmware, and that is what I recalled).

* You have no clue about net recovery

* You think having some hidden switch in a power port means the computer would
stay on even when unplugged or is tied to a UPS or... who the hell knows? I
see no evidence for such a switch, for what it is worth, and have been clear
about that -- but I have heard people talk about it and have had luck with
unplugging from the machine when unplugging from the wall did not work. Could
have been coincidence.

> I'm starting to suspect SC was correct in warning me
> that you'd play games.

Remember above where you denied listening to his crap? Here you at least say
you are starting to do so. Make up your mind.

> I think you tried to get some points by trying to take issue with what I
> called it. And, It's not the first time you've tried doing the same thing
> here...

This is tied to your ego. Not to me.

>>> I'm not buying this for a fucking second, you know that right?
>>
>> I understand you have a challenge here. Sure.
>
> Then you don't understand.

You directly admitted to not "buying" the facts I share with you. That is a
YOU issue. Do you have plans to deal with your issue or just blame others for
them?

>> You are still sticking to the idea that Command+Option+R requites the
>> hard drive. Curious.
>
> Now you're the one making shit up.

You claimed the recovery mode stuff was in a separate partition on the drive.
Not just the backup OS.

And then you snipped the proof you were wrong and now want to deny it. Your
ignorance and lying hurts the effort to fix the machine.

>>> Post back in this thread once you have MXLinux booting that machine so
>>> we can get to the next stage.
>>
>> I will first do the Command+Option+R boot. If that does not work then
>> there are clearly bigger issues than the drive. But I will try MXLinux.
>
> Now we get to to the meat. The actual reason I bothered to respond, infact.

Your above ego stuff was just icing on the cake, eh?

>
> Snit, Are you going to do exactly what I tell you to do, and only that, or
> not? All I need is a Yes or No. I need to know, before I waste anymore time
> with you, are you going to follow my fucking instructions or not?

I will be trying the Command+Option+R disk utility first to see if it works
AND now for the fun of shoving your ignorance into your face (of course this
assumes USB works to get me there). But then I will do the Linux boot. The
Linux boot of course will take more time and effort.

>
>>> That doesn't mean stall me for weeks, either,
>>
>> I might be gone for weeks. By current plans I will be gone for most of
>> Feb.
>
> How convenient.

It is not. It is going to slow the whole process down. It is unfortunate.

But it is weird how you see it as "convenient".

> It's just a coincidence that as soon as I start asking
> specific questions and proceed to the first thing I want you to do, you're
> all of a sudden far far too busy to do that. Snit,

How hard it must be for you that my life plans are not being changed to
accommodate you.

> shit like this is why SC
> has credibility here and you don't. He 'predicted' that you would be trying
> to pull some shit as soon as I started actually doing the tech thing with
> you. You're in way over your head already, we can all see that, snit.

He has a hard time with my not living my life to serve him, too.

Next steps: the two of you will start fishing to find where I am. Hint... not
near my home.

[Gremlin]

pothead <pot...@snakebite.com> news:up09rn$2qs5m$1...@dont-email.me Fri, 26

Jan 2024 12:51:03 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On 2024-01-26, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:D%AsN.83239$STLe....@fx34.iad
>> Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:10:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>

>>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:20鈂u20ac疨M MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>>> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>
>>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com>
>>>> news:THnrN.245670$Wp_8....@fx17.iad Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:13:07 GMT
>>>> in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>>

>>>>> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08芒\u20ac呕PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>>>>> <XnsB100D8...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You're nitpicking. You know what he meant by BIOS, snit. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> I know my Mac does not have a BIOS.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't go by that name, no.
>>>
>>> It does not have a BIOS. That was the point.
>>
>> It does have EFI, which is the Apple version of UEFI which replaced the
>> BIOS for the modern PC. As I provided with the url you snipped, he's
>> not unique in using the terminology. You may not like that, you might
>> not even agree with it, but it's still common enough that this url
>> exists: https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode
>>
>> What you snipped away is restored below. I really don't know why you
>> even bother trying to be so disingenuine like that.
>>
>> It doesn't go by that name, no. Modern PCs don't have a 'BIOS' anymore
>> either, it's been replaced by UEFI. Your mac uses EFI. A variation of
>> it. And, he isn't the only one to refer to it as the BIOS, even when
>> discussing an Apple product. You understood what he meant. You were
>> just doing what you do.
>>
>> See here:
>> https://macpaw.com/how-to/mac-bios-mode
>>
>>
>> No big deal, it's just you doing what you do, snit.
>>
>
> Indeed.
> It's obvious that snit just wants to start conflict and waste your time.

I'm inclined to agree with you, especially after reading his replies today
in that thread.

> I wouldn't bother giving him advice on how to fix his iMac, assuming it
> even exists, because snit will just drag you and everyone else around in
> circles until the entire thread becomes a gigantic food fight.

It's starting to look that way already.

> Just my 2 cents.

Here's a Nickelback <g>

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:a%AsN.83238$STLe....@fx34.iad Thu,
25 Jan 2024 22:10:14 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:21槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote

> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>>>>
>>>> The Apple 2e was the first actual computer I ever sat in front of
>>>> that had a screen and a keyboard
>>>
>>> No mouse.
>>
>> Nope, it didn't have a mouse, either.
>
> I just find it funny how proud you have been of using computers with no
> mice.

That's because you don't understand the reason(s) for the comment in the
first place.

> Oh, nothing wrong with taking pride in some of the stuff you have done.

I wasn't aware I needed your permission.

> Hell, I have shared some that I did at Intuit and my work on a fly
> speedometer and more.

the fly speedometer that when I started asking specific questions, you
couldn't provide any specific details of? Yea, heh, okay.

> I have talked about stuff where you and Carroll
> (more him than you), say it is not even possible.

ROFL, pull the other one, dude.

> I have noted I have no proof of some of your claims and that has been
offensive to you.

Actually, you've intentionally avoided acknowledging the proof. There is a
difference. Yes, you make it very clear you are that level of dishonest. The
claims you aren't directly addressing is that I've told you I'm RAiD; and I
am. There's shitloads of proof confirming that. Hopefully FTR doesn't
consider my correcting you (again) as bragging. He has previously. I also
told you about a few of the virus families I've authored. I've shared urls
linking RAiD and my real name as the same person from reliable sources.
Unless you're going to state that you think virusbulletin and Graham Cluley
of sophos are wrong? FFS, I've still got the video on my tiktok page showing
source code to the original IRoK virus. You can't acquire that source code
online because I never released it. So how do you explain how I have a copy
of it if I'm not the author? Oh, that's right, the last time I asked you
that question; you claimed that I'd need a copy from the real author in
order to be the fallguy.

Snit, you've attempted to push the idea that I was a fall guy for the real
RAiD, rather than admit what piles of proof confirm is true; that I am RAiD.
*everyone* who's even commented to you about the subject have all told you
that I am who I told you I was, and I did write the programs I told you i'd
written. FFS, your bestie David Brooks has told you the same fucking things.
Some have even disclosed that it's true about the things I've claimed to
have done, and the things i've claimed to have done to certain, very
specific, people.

For some silly reason, you think you can dismiss reality by 'noting' it away
if it doesn't suite you. What drugs did you mix together to acquire such a
mindset?

> but I do not join you and Carroll in denying things you have done (or say
you
> have) are even possible.

Bullshit. You've claimed I was a fallguy, a functionally illiterate fraud,
etc. You still deny that Irok and Toadie are my work; and you deny they are
because they absolutely blow anything codewise you or SC could develop now
away (they require a level of understanding to write that neither of you
have. They aren't scripts), and they are over two decades old. And the only
fucking reason you have to deny I wrote them is because YOU tried to use SC
as a standin to compensate for your lack of coding skill so you could
'compete' with me. A competition that's been entirely of your own doing the
entire time. I wasn't interested, because, I already knew that you were
nowhere near my skill level and it wouldn't matter the subject matter, if it
was tech; i'd 0wn you. I just didn't consider how easy it was actually going
to be. I expected more of a challenge.

>> Actually, what's funny is what you wrote that you were already employed
>> doing by the time I came around. Only problem with that story of yours
>> is that you would have been a very young teenager; we aren't that far
>> apart in ages. And there's no fucking way, as a teenager, that you
>> (rofl) were teaching adults how to use computers.
>
> As a teen I was. See: I have done things you do not even see as
> possible. Now we might quibble over the exact years -- I do not know
> your age off hand.
>
>> Or writing software, or working for
>> any corporations. By the time I actually became a teenager, I was
>> already a known and accomplished software author.
>
> And yet you just said you cannot see how a teen could teach adults. Your
> claims are inconsistent.

How do you relate an accomplished software author to that of a teen teaching
adults, snit? Are you claiming that by reading the documentation included
with the program, I was 'teaching'? :) Me personally then? What if I didn't
always write the documentation that was included with the program? What if
that was out sourced? Hmm? What if, heh, I sent my version of the docs and
someone was kind enough to clean them up for me? Am I still the one doing
the teaching, or, is the person who actually did the rewrites the teacher?
And, would you even know the difference?

My claims are not inconsistent, rofl, that's your lack of reading
comprehension skill on display again. You really don't understand written
english well, snit.

>> By the time I turned sixteen, I'd
>> already gotten Novell certs. So umm, no, we're nothing alike in this
>> field, snit. Never have been. I dunno the paths you took, but you sure
>> as hell didn't take the same roads I did.
>
> We do different things. Cool. I love we have different skills. I do not
> get your need to compare or your stuff about how we are nothing alike.

I'm calling BULLSHIT, again, snit. You've been trying to "compete" with me
practically since you got here. Always trying to talk down to me (talking
shit nearly one hundred percent of the time as you do it, too) - You want so
badly to be seen as a peer of mine, you're willing to trash talk me, lie
your fucking ass off about me, and attack me as much as you think you can;
you'll completely make shit up too dude, you clearly do not have a problem
lying your fucking ass off. It's routine for you!

>>> There was a time Apple DID make their machines expandable -- though
>>> admittedly that was a long time ago.
>>
>> Expandable is not the same thing as what I was writing about, snit.
>
> What you wrote:
>
> -----
> They do not want you to take the machine to a
> non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take
> it back to them and continue to have an exclusive and expensive
> relationship with them - hopefully for your entire life. This
> has always been the Apple way
> -----

Yep. That has nothing to do with expandable. It has everything to do with
their closed walled off garden, very proprietary eco system.

> That is what I responded to. Now if you want to say you did not word
> that well or whatever that is cool.

Since I didn't word it poorly, why would I lie for you and state otherwise?
I'm not going to help you save face here by ignoring the fact you didn't
understand what I was writing about.

>> Apples
>> are still expandable. You can upgrade the hard drive, most of the time.
>
> Not with the modern Macs. The storage is a part of the CPU.

The RAM, GPU and CPU share the same space, but not the HD. That's not part
of Apples system on a chip. HD isn't RAM or 'unified memory' snit. You are
wrong, about your own gear, yet again. And unified memory is the CPU and GPU
*sharing* the memory. I can't believe you Apple people are cool with this
bullshit. You're paying so much and saying here' bend me over, break it off
in me, I love the idea of sharing memory and you over charging the fuck out
of me for it! And selling it to me as 'new tech'. That's what I call
innovation. ROFL.


See here:

<https://www.macworld.com/article/670873/which-mac-processor-apple-processor-
comparison-m1-vs-intel.html>

And here:
<https://www.trustedreviews.com/explainer/what-is-unified-memory-4340912>

> The
>> ram is usually soldered in place, so you're fucked there; but some PC
>> vendors have done this shit too. So.. No excuse for it.
>
> With the system on a chip that Apple now uses there is sorta an excuse.

What excuse is there for no ram expandability? What you get is what you get,
you can't get more. What exactly is good about that, snit?

>>
>>> https://www.myoldcomputers.com/museum/computers/appleiigs_woz.htm
>>> -----
>>> Unlike the Apple IIc, the IIgs was expandable through add on boards, a
>>> return to the earlier Wozniak philosophy to make the Apple an open
>>> architecture. As with the earlier Apple II's and IIe's the top of the
>>> CPU unit is removable allowing access to the 7 expansion slots inside.
>>
>> umm, the IIc could be expanded via boards too, snit; you had to use the
>> 34pin header though. It wasn't expandable with daughter boards like the
>> previous 2 ones were.
>
> Yes. But the IIgs was more so. I had a Woz edition and added extra
> memory (4.25 MB... so much!) and a Second Site card and a HUGE hard
> drive (170 MB if I recall correctly). Talk about a really powerful
> system! LOL!

a 170mb eh? Oh, from where did you procure such a drive way back then? I
only ask due to the insane fucking cost of one. Was it MFM, RLL, or another
proprietary interface protocol? My first HD was a piddly little 40meg
seagate, but it required the use of a full length (and I do mean full
length) 8bit controller card for my computer to be able to use it. The
onboard controller couldn't 'see' the drive. It wasn't a true IDE.

> I used to compare it to Pentiums and the like, though, and it was often
> amazing how well it compared. Of course that was in limited contexts!

Muahaha, umm, no.

The Apple IIGS made significant improvements over the Apple IIe and Apple
IIc. It emulates its predecessors via a custom chip called the Mega II and
uses the then-new WDC 65C816 16-bit microprocessor. The processor runs at
2.8 MHz, which is faster than the 8-bit processors used in the earlier Apple
II models. The 65C816 allows the IIGS to address considerably more RAM.

The 2.8 MHz clock was a deliberate decision to limit the IIGS's performance
to less than that of the Macintosh. This decision had a critical effect on
the IIGS's success; the original 65C816 processor used in the IIGS was
certified to run at up to 4 MHz.[2] Faster versions of the 65C816 processor
were readily available, with speeds of between 5 and 14 MHz, but Apple kept
the machine at 2.8 MHz throughout its production run.[3]

FFS, My Tandy3000NL ran a 10mhz intel 286 (that's also a 16bit CPU), my next
PC rig was a 386DX40; that's a 32bit cpu snit, purring like a kitten at 40
megahertz.
Then we have the 486 family, also 32bit cpus, but more powerful than the 386
counterparts, unless you were comparing say an SX to a 386DX. Depending on
the application used, the 386 would outperform it. Now, when the pentiums
came out, they weren't playing around either. Also 32bit cpu, but more
advanced, and much higher clock frequencies. Fans with heatsinks started
being used with some of these, along with the 486DX4/100 and 133mhz cpus.

How the fuck did you even think you could pass off a machine built in the
very early 90s to a Pentium, when your cpu was so fucking slow and your max
ram, pegged out would have been 8megabytes? I had 16megs in my fucking Cyrix
486DLC40. C'mon dude, my fucking color computer three ran at 2mhz and 4mhz
if you overclocked it with a poke command. Graphics and sound. LOL, you
didn't have shit on my Soundblaster. For sure.

>> It's a common misspelling of 'a lot'. Did you have a specific point,
>> snit?
>
> I did have a smiley... but using that often is a sign of a lower
> education (or dyslexia or other such issue). With you saying it in a
> sentence about education it is funny.

ROFL, sorry to disappoint, but I don't have the sort of problems you have in
my life. I have one medical condition and it's a life long kind of
condition.

>>
>>> What does any of this have to do with your claim:
>>
>> It's not a claim. It's the truth. Apple is a proprietary walled off
>> garden and has been for a long time now. We aren't in the days of the
>> Apple 2 or the commie64 anymore, dude.
>
> -----
> They do not want you to take the machine to a
> non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take it back to
> them and continue to have an exclusive and expensive relationship with
> them - hopefully for your entire life. This has always been the Apple
> way -----
>
> I already said it is right for the recent times... but the Apple II days
> were different.

Expandable and proprietary aren't the same thing, snit. The Apple II days
aren't relevant. It's not today. It's not any of the machines you have
access to which are made by Apple. You can still be expandable while being
proprietary; just ask Tandy, or IBM. Apple weren't the only ones. <G> But,
the important difference is that with the PCs, the architecture itself
continued to remain open platform. Some vendors, like IBM and Tandy, I can
list more examples if you want? decided to venture off spec in the sense
they would add additional custom 'features' to the system board, or
something along those lines; but they still continued to be compatible, they
still followed the original specifications; they just 'tweaked it'. Some of
those tweaks did cause issues though, rofl. Wasn't perfect, still isn't
perfect, but it's still open.

>>
>>> For what it is worth, while you were playing at home, I was working in
>>> labs and running a cluster of computer labs... IIe systems mostly, but
>>> also had UNIX dummy terminals and DOS machines. And later Macs and
>>> Windows systems.
>>
>> your DOB is July 22, 1969
>> Mine is Feb 08, 1978
>
> OK. So you are only 9 years younger. I thought a bit more.

Yea well, nobody here, has accused you of being very good with thinking.

>> With all due respect, We have nine years of age difference, snit. So,
>> excuse me if I doubt what you're claiming you were doing while you
>> think I was playing at home.
>> My idea of playing though was building things with electronics.
>
> How many times do you feel the need to share this? Why? It is truly
> bizarre behavior.

See above, snit. While I was 'playing at home' you were 'working'. and
running labs. ROFL. And that's not the first time you've tried to sell that.
I do hope since you now realize we aren't that far apart in age that you'll
stop doing that stupid shit? You suggested I was playing at home, snit,
while you were getting 'real shit' done. Well, I thought I'd educate you a
little, on what 'playing' was for me. <G> You *invited* me to respond in the
manner I did.

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:hsftN.198622$vFZa....@fx13.iad
Sat, 27 Jan 2024 22:28:29 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

> On Jan 27, 2024 at 1:54:15槙u20ac烈M MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB106A1...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

[snip]

>> Let's save both of ourselves some time here. Are you going to do
>> exactly as I tell you to do, and, nothing else unless i tell you or
>> not? A simple yes or no is all I want for an answer here. Yes or no.
>
> I am going to try the net recovery... one, to see if it will happen but
> also now because it will be fun to take a pic and shove it in your face
> (assuming USB is even working and I can get it to do that).
>
> Then I will do the Linux boot.

Thanks for making it very clear that you are not going to follow my
directions as I've asked you to do.

> You standing by lies and you throw tantrums is about you. Not me.

You made up a totally bullshit story about me and a certain floodbot. I
know that you are not the honest and honorable person you claim to be, I
know this from first hand experience interacting with you.

>>> Assuming you mean. Latch Circuit, I said nothing of such.
>>
>> Oh cute, you googled it, but obviously didn't comprehend the results
>> that came for it.
>
> I said nothing of a Latch Circuit, hence why you cannot quote my doing
> so. You again got confused.

*I* was the one who mentioned it, dumbass. It's one of the three
possibilities for a master switch configuration.

> But never anything about unplugging it and it not shutting down! That is
> absurd.

WTF? That's EXACTLY WHAT YOU CLAIMED:

MID: <P6orN.290228$xHn7....@fx14.iad>
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=170638788100

I wrote this
> Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral line
> is seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.

and you responded to me with this:

I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe there
is a little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems odd... but
did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I see where
you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden switch or
the like it cannot matter.

> Your issues with focus, honesty, and trust are going to make this
> troubleshooting MUCH harder... but I will continue to give you chances.
> If nothing else at this point you have become comical.

SC and Pothead were right the whole time evidently. You fully intended to
play games.

> How hard it must be for you that my life plans are not being changed to
> accommodate you.

ROFL. Life plans? Having to move is a life plan? LOL!

>> shit like this is why SC
>> has credibility here and you don't. He 'predicted' that you would be
>> trying to pull some shit as soon as I started actually doing the tech
>> thing with you. You're in way over your head already, we can all see
>> that, snit.
>
> He has a hard time with my not living my life to serve him, too.

He has credibility and the general respect of the group. You don't. And
for obvious reason.

[Snit]

On Jan 27, 2024 at 4:51:11 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB106BF...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:a%AsN.83238$STLe....@fx34.iad Thu,
> 25 Jan 2024 22:10:14 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:21â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Apple 2e was the first actual computer I ever sat in front of
>>>>> that had a screen and a keyboard
>>>>
>>>> No mouse.
>>>
>>> Nope, it didn't have a mouse, either.
>>
>> I just find it funny how proud you have been of using computers with no
>> mice.
>
> That's because you don't understand the reason(s) for the comment in the
> first place.

You were doing as you do... bragging and often making a fool of yourself as
you do. Certainly not staying on topic. You have a huge issue with focus. And
you are boring as hell. It is a shame you cannot control yourself even in this
thread... means I am going to be sniping a LOT of your crap. If you have
content among the crap you post it likely will be missed and then you will cry
about repeating or cry about not wanting to.

I wish you had better focus and were better at keeping your word.

>
>> Oh, nothing wrong with taking pride in some of the stuff you have done.
>
> I wasn't aware I needed your permission.

Odd you see that as "permission" and not my noting what I think is reasonable
and moral. Another example of your challenge with understanding.

>
>> Hell, I have shared some that I did at Intuit and my work on a fly
>> speedometer and more.
>

You ignored this.

>
>> I have talked about stuff where you and Carroll

>> (more him than you), say it is not even possible.'

You ignored this

>> I have noted I have no proof of some of your claims and that has been
>> offensive to you.

You ignored this.

>
>> but I do not join you and Carroll in denying things you have done (or say you
>> have) are even possible.

You ignored this.

>
> Bullshit. You've claimed I was a fallguy,

Quite? Message ID. You will never provide such because even you know you are
lying.

> a functionally illiterate fraud,

Quite? Message ID. You will never provide such because even you know you are
lying.

>>
>> And yet you just said you cannot see how a teen could teach adults. Your
>> claims are inconsistent.

You ignored this.

>>> By the time I turned sixteen, I'd
>>> already gotten Novell certs. So umm, no, we're nothing alike in this
>>> field, snit. Never have been. I dunno the paths you took, but you sure
>>> as hell didn't take the same roads I did.
>>
>> We do different things. Cool. I love we have different skills. I do not
>> get your need to compare or your stuff about how we are nothing alike.

You ignored this.

>
> I'm calling BULLSHIT, again, snit. You've been trying to "compete" with me

But only in ways you cannot quote. Your view there is about your ego.

>>>> There was a time Apple DID make their machines expandable -- though
>>>> admittedly that was a long time ago.
>>>
>>> Expandable is not the same thing as what I was writing about, snit.
>>
>> What you wrote:
>>
>> -----
>> They do not want you to take the machine to a
>> non Apple store repair shop, either. They want you to take
>> it back to them and continue to have an exclusive and expensive
>> relationship with them - hopefully for your entire life. This
>> has always been the Apple way
>> -----
>
> Yep. That has nothing to do with expandable.

Why do you present yourself as a functionally illiterate fraud?

> See here:
>
> <https://www.macworld.com/article/670873/which-mac-processor-apple-processor-comparison-m1-vs-intel.html>
>
> And here:
> <https://www.trustedreviews.com/explainer/what-is-unified-memory-4340912>

Good info, thanks.

>>>
>>>> https://www.myoldcomputers.com/museum/computers/appleiigs_woz.htm
>>>> -----
>>>> Unlike the Apple IIc, the IIgs was expandable through add on boards, a
>>>> return to the earlier Wozniak philosophy to make the Apple an open
>>>> architecture. As with the earlier Apple II's and IIe's the top of the
>>>> CPU unit is removable allowing access to the 7 expansion slots inside.
>>>
>>> umm, the IIc could be expanded via boards too, snit; you had to use the
>>> 34pin header though. It wasn't expandable with daughter boards like the
>>> previous 2 ones were.
>>
>> Yes. But the IIgs was more so. I had a Woz edition and added extra
>> memory (4.25 MB... so much!) and a Second Site card and a HUGE hard
>> drive (170 MB if I recall correctly). Talk about a really powerful
>> system! LOL!
>
> a 170mb eh?

Yes. Who could ever need more? LOL!

> Oh, from where did you procure such a drive way back then? I
> only ask due to the insane fucking cost of one.

I do not recall saying what year I added it. Where did you get that info?

> Was it MFM, RLL, or another
> proprietary interface protocol?

It was on a card that fit into the IIgs. The memory was on two cards... one of
the cards having a daughter card. To keep them from shorting out on each other
and there case I used cardboard from cereal boxes.

> My first HD was a piddly little 40meg
> seagate, but it required the use of a full length (and I do mean full
> length) 8bit controller card for my computer to be able to use it. The
> onboard controller couldn't 'see' the drive. It wasn't a true IDE.
>
>> I used to compare it to Pentiums and the like, though, and it was often
>> amazing how well it compared. Of course that was in limited contexts!
>
> Muahaha, umm, no.

Check out the amiga Usenet group. I was chewing up those of you who troll even
back then. LOL!

>
> How the fuck did you even think you could pass off a machine built in the
> very early 90s to a Pentium, when your cpu was so fucking slow and your max
> ram, pegged out would have been 8megabytes?

Like many techies you look at specs and not what is being done with the
machine.

>
>>> It's a common misspelling of 'a lot'. Did you have a specific point,
>>> snit?
>>
>> I did have a smiley... but using that often is a sign of a lower
>> education (or dyslexia or other such issue). With you saying it in a
>> sentence about education it is funny.
>
> ROFL, sorry to disappoint,

Oh, I assure you -- you did not. LOL!

>
> Expandable and proprietary aren't the same thing, snit.

Nobody said they were. You share the bad habit with Carroll of shooting down
your own straw men.

> The Apple II days
> aren't relevant.

In terms of what Apple has "always" done it is very much relevant... though I
already conceded that you comment is true for modern computing.

>>
>> OK. So you are only 9 years younger. I thought a bit more.
>
> Yea well, nobody here, has accused you of being very good with thinking.

You act incredibly immature.

>
>>> With all due respect, We have nine years of age difference, snit. So,
>>> excuse me if I doubt what you're claiming you were doing while you
>>> think I was playing at home.
>>> My idea of playing though was building things with electronics.
>>
>> How many times do you feel the need to share this? Why? It is truly
>> bizarre behavior.

You ignored this.

[Snit]

On Jan 27, 2024 at 4:51:10 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB106BF...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> pothead <pot...@snakebite.com> news:up09rn$2qs5m$1...@dont-email.me Fri, 26
> Jan 2024 12:51:03 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-26, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:D%AsN.83239$STLe....@fx34.iad
>>> Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:10:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>

>>>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:20โ\u20acฏPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>>>> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>>
>>>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com>
>>>>> news:THnrN.245670$Wp_8....@fx17.iad Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:13:07 GMT
>>>>> in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>>> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08รข\u20acลปPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

It is funny how pissed you get when your crap is called out.

[pothead]

On 2024-01-27, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
> pothead <pot...@snakebite.com> news:up09rn$2qs5m$1...@dont-email.me Fri, 26
> Jan 2024 12:51:03 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
>> On 2024-01-26, Gremlin <nob...@haph.org> wrote:
>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:D%AsN.83239$STLe....@fx34.iad
>>> Thu, 25 Jan 2024 22:10:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>

>>>> On Jan 25, 2024 at 1:42:20â\u20ac¯PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

>>>> <XnsB1049F...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>>>>
>>>>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com>
>>>>> news:THnrN.245670$Wp_8....@fx17.iad Mon, 22 Jan 2024 06:13:07 GMT
>>>>> in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>>> On Jan 21, 2024 at 7:17:08â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote

Isn't Nickelback a mediocre band?
Either way, I'll take the nickel !

[Snit]

On Jan 27, 2024 at 5:05:15 PM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB106C2...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:hsftN.198622$vFZa....@fx13.iad
> Sat, 27 Jan 2024 22:28:29 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>

>> On Jan 27, 2024 at 1:54:15â\u20acŻPM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
>> <XnsB106A1...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
> [snip]

I will be doing more and more sniping. Your repetition, insults, lies, and the
like are not worth my time.

When I get back to my machine I will do the Command+Option+R boot and check
SMART status... again to see if it works and to have fun rubbing your nose in
your ignorance. Whether that works or not, through, I will do the Linux boot
to compare. But be aware that takes more time. Not even sure I have a free
thumb drive, but I bet I do.

>
>>> Let's save both of ourselves some time here. Are you going to do
>>> exactly as I tell you to do, and, nothing else unless i tell you or
>>> not? A simple yes or no is all I want for an answer here. Yes or no.
>>
>> I am going to try the net recovery... one, to see if it will happen but
>> also now because it will be fun to take a pic and shove it in your face
>> (assuming USB is even working and I can get it to do that).
>>
>> Then I will do the Linux boot.
>
> Thanks for making it very clear that you are not going to follow my
> directions as I've asked you to do.

I also tried different keyboards and told you. I will use my brain and I will
fact check you. That has always been the case but even more now that you show:

* You have no clue about the built in disk utility (at least reportedly in
firmware, and that is what I recalled).

* You have no clue about net recovery

* You think having some hidden switch in a power port means the computer would
stay on even when unplugged or is tied to a UPS or... who the hell knows?

>> You standing by lies and you throw tantrums is about you. Not me.

You ran from this.

>
>>>> Assuming you mean. Latch Circuit, I said nothing of such.
>>>
>>> Oh cute, you googled it, but obviously didn't comprehend the results
>>> that came for it.
>>
>> I said nothing of a Latch Circuit, hence why you cannot quote my doing
>> so. You again got confused.
>
> *I* was the one who mentioned it, dumbass.

And blamed me. I get it. You got really confused.

>
>> But never anything about unplugging it and it not shutting down! That is
>> absurd.
>
> WTF? That's EXACTLY WHAT YOU CLAIMED:

But you cannot quote it or show a MID where I did so.

>
> MID: <P6orN.290228$xHn7....@fx14.iad>
> http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=170638788100

I did no such thing there. Again you present yourself as a functionally
illiterate fraud. You do that a lot.

>
> I wrote this
>> Electrically, makes no difference once the hot line or the neutral line
>> is seperated because the circuit goes from closed to open.
>
> and you responded to me with this:
>
> I have seen it suggested you unplug from the machine on some. Maybe there
> is a little switch? I have looked and not seen one and it seems odd... but
> did have it work when unplugging from the wall did not. But I see where
> you are coming from and absolutely agree if there is no hidden switch or
> the like it cannot matter.

And your poor reading comprehension led you to think someone said a machine
would stay on when unplugged. I get that. Why do you need to belabor the
point. You failed to understand what you read.

>
>> Your issues with focus, honesty, and trust are going to make this
>> troubleshooting MUCH harder... but I will continue to give you chances.
>> If nothing else at this point you have become comical.

You ignored this.

>> How hard it must be for you that my life plans are not being changed to
>> accommodate you.
>
> ROFL. Life plans? Having to move is a life plan? LOL!

"Having to move" is yet another example of your failure to understand what you
read. It is also exactly what I predicted: you are fishing.

>>> shit like this is why SC
>>> has credibility here and you don't. He 'predicted' that you would be
>>> trying to pull some shit as soon as I started actually doing the tech
>>> thing with you. You're in way over your head already, we can all see
>>> that, snit.
>>
>> He has a hard time with my not living my life to serve him, too.

You ignored this.

[%]

is this about carroll

[Snit]

On Jan 27, 2024 at 5:29:43 PM MST, "Snit" wrote
<XdhtN.314248$xHn7....@fx14.iad>:

OK, looked into what I was saying:

https://discussions.apple.com/docs/DOC-3603
-----
Unplug the computer's power cord from both the wall and computer.
-----
This fits my saying from the computer (though it also says wall)

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8258993?sortBy=best
-----
Please click iMac SMC and PRAM reset for instructions. Do the
SMC reset 2-3 times back to back, sometimes it does not work
the first time. Also disconnect any peripherals such as External
Hard Disks when doing the reset.
-----
Reset mult times. This would explain why it worked when I did it from the back
of the computer and not the wall. Maybe I did not wait long enough.

https://purplecomputing.com/tech-how-to/how-to-reset-the-smc-system-management-controller/
-----
Unplug the power adapter from your Mac and the electrical outlet for
several
seconds, then plug it back in.
-----
Another one that says to do both.

https://www.ycschools.us/downloads/technology_files_2/resetting_the_system_management_controller_smc_on_your_mac.pdf
-----
Unplug the power adapter from your Mac and from the wall power socket for
several
seconds.
-----
Yet another than says both.

https://www.macspecialist.org/imac-24-inch-04-2007/how-to-reset-the-system-management-controller-smc.html
-----
Unplug all cables from the computer, including the power cord.
-----
Aha! This one says specifically from the computer. These say much the same:

https://www.dssw.co.uk/sleepcentre/t/resetting-the-smc.html

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3015613

On and on and on.

Meanwhile you have yet to find ANY site that says a 2017 iMac would have a
chip that came out in 2020. LOL!

[Snit]

On Jan 27, 2024 at 7:33:23 PM MST, "%" wrote
<jt2dnTPJWsxuISj4...@giganews.com>:

There is not enough room in here for this post and his ego.

[%]

i'm leaving

[Snit]

On Jan 27, 2024 at 8:13:21 PM MST, "%" wrote
<NnGdncNxeLrPWyj4...@giganews.com>:

To what year?

[%]

i evolved

[Snit]

On Jan 28, 2024 at 9:56:47 AM MST, "%" wrote
<_B-dnU_OJKLNGiv4...@giganews.com>:

what did the eye evolve from?

[%]

i didn't i volve i e volved

[Snit]

On Jan 28, 2024 at 11:18:58 AM MST, "%" wrote
<I9KcnedFg_cOByv4...@giganews.com>:

Do you revolve?

[Gremlin]

pothead <pot...@snakebite.com> news:up4740$3jcj8$1...@dont-email.me Sun, 28

I don't think so. You're entitled to your opinion though. :)

> Either way, I'll take the nickel !

<G>

[Gremlin]

Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:XdhtN.314248$xHn7....@fx14.iad
Sun, 28 Jan 2024 00:29:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:

[snip snip snip]

>
> I also tried different keyboards and told you. I will use my brain and I
> will fact check you. That has always been the case but even more now
> that you show:

I have no interest in this beyond assisting you with the machines repair, if
you want me to do so. I will respond when you decide to boot the machine into
MXLinux via USB stick as I've asked you to do, several times, now. Any further
posts you make which don't contain that information will be ignored. I don't
have the time for that. I'm not goiing to make the time for that.

[Snit]

On Jan 29, 2024 at 9:13:53 AM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
<XnsB10872...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:

> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:XdhtN.314248$xHn7....@fx14.iad
> Sun, 28 Jan 2024 00:29:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>
> [snip snip snip]
>>
>> I also tried different keyboards and told you. I will use my brain and I
>> will fact check you. That has always been the case but even more now
>> that you show:
>
> I have no interest in this beyond assisting you with the machines repair, if
> you want me to do so. I will respond when you decide to boot the machine into
> MXLinux via USB stick as I've asked you to do, several times, now. Any further
> posts you make which don't contain that information will be ignored. I don't
> have the time for that. I'm not goiing to make the time for that.

If you REALLY are going to finally leave your ego, your attacks, and your
other trolling nonsense behind -- as I have been asking -- then a sincere
thank you. Happy to see you seeing the wisdom in what I have been asking for.

As far as "decide" -- not sure what your are speaking of. What made you think
I was against the idea?

[Snit]

On Jan 29, 2024 at 3:34:50 PM MST, "Snit" wrote
<eKVtN.101742$t8cc....@fx06.iad>:

> On Jan 29, 2024 at 9:13:53 AM MST, "Gremlin" wrote
> <XnsB10872...@cF04o3ON7k2lx05.lLC.9r5>:
>
>> Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> news:XdhtN.314248$xHn7....@fx14.iad
>> Sun, 28 Jan 2024 00:29:43 GMT in alt.computer.workshop, wrote:
>>
>> [snip snip snip]
>>>
>>> I also tried different keyboards and told you. I will use my brain and I
>>> will fact check you. That has always been the case but even more now
>>> that you show:
>>
>> I have no interest in this beyond assisting you with the machines repair, if
>> you want me to do so. I will respond when you decide to boot the machine into
>> MXLinux via USB stick as I've asked you to do, several times, now. Any further
>> posts you make which don't contain that information will be ignored. I don't
>> have the time for that. I'm not goiing to make the time for that.
>
> If you REALLY are going to finally leave your ego, your attacks, and your
> other trolling nonsense behind -- as I have been asking -- then a sincere
> thank you. Happy to see you seeing the wisdom in what I have been asking for.
>
> As far as "decide" -- not sure what your are speaking of. What made you think
> I was against the idea?

OK, back home. Tried to boot with Command+Option+R.

Did not take. No sign USB is working.

I did only try the Mac keyboard -- not sure what keys to hit on the PC one.

I can try MXLinux, but if the keyboard is not working that seems futile. What
do you suggest?

[%]

espresso and a good blend of pipe tobacco

[Snit]

On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:02:22 PM MST, "%" wrote
<VvKdnYw4KZZC_iT4...@giganews.com>:

Thanks. That fixed it!

[David B.]

On 30 Jan 2024 at 18:46:29 GMT, "Snit" <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> OK, back home. Tried to boot with Command+Option+R.
>
> Did not take. No sign USB is working.
>
> I did only try the Mac keyboard -- not sure what keys to hit on the PC one.
>
> I can try MXLinux, but if the keyboard is not working that seems futile. What
> do you suggest?

May I suggest that you use a wired keyboard known to function with another
computer?

[Snit]

On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:32:10 PM MST, "David B." wrote
<l1t86q...@mid.individual.net>:

I did test the Apple-compatible keyboard on another Mac. Seems to work fine.
Good thought though.

[David B.]

On 30 Jan 2024 at 22:56:36 GMT, "Snit" <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 30, 2024 at 2:32:10 PM MST, "David B." wrote
> <l1t86q...@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> On 30 Jan 2024 at 18:46:29 GMT, "Snit" <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> OK, back home. Tried to boot with Command+Option+R.
>>>
>>> Did not take. No sign USB is working.
>>>
>>> I did only try the Mac keyboard -- not sure what keys to hit on the PC one.
>>>
>>> I can try MXLinux, but if the keyboard is not working that seems futile. What
>>> do you suggest?
>>
>> May I suggest that you use a wired keyboard known to function with another
>> computer?
>
> I did test the Apple-compatible keyboard on another Mac. Seems to work fine.
> Good thought though.

:-) Might sound silly, but if 'testing' your old iMac, use a wired mouse too!

[Snit]

On Jan 30, 2024 at 4:13:11 PM MST, "David B." wrote
<l1te47...@mid.individual.net>:

All I have used on it are wired mice.