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PC World or PC Mag has a column on whether to switch to Linux (answer: NO)

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RayLopez99

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Mar 26, 2011, 2:05:55 AM3/26/11
to
PC world or mag (online) has a editorial by Lincoln Spector I think
was the name on switching to Linux from Windows. It was a fair and
balanced piece, and the author made sure to not slam Linux, but the
verdict was don't switch. Reasons: not as easy to use Linux, non-
Word / non-Office suites not as good as Microsoft Office.

RL

GrtArtiste

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Mar 26, 2011, 7:37:41 AM3/26/11
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http://www.pcworld.com/article/222540/should_i_switch_to_linux.html

Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office? I also note that
while he's anxious to recommend a Wubi-install as a test-drive, he
never mentions a true dual-boot. I wonder why? It's almost as if he's
conceding (without actually saying so) that the average Windows user
isn't bright enough to actually get it done properly. Unless something
comes along that radically changes my needs, I'll be dual-booting
Windows/Ubuntu from now on. There are simply too many desirable
aspects to each OS to ignore.

GrtArtiste

7

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Mar 26, 2011, 7:45:47 AM3/26/11
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RayLopez99 wrote:


They can't be telling the truth then.


> RL


Most of the world is switching to Linux and Open Office.
So get over it OK?!


RayLopez99

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Mar 26, 2011, 8:33:53 AM3/26/11
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On Mar 26, 6:37 pm, GrtArtiste <nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?

No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
wants them?

> I also note that
> while he's anxious to recommend a Wubi-install as a test-drive, he
> never mentions a true dual-boot. I wonder why? It's almost as if he's
> conceding (without actually saying so) that the average Windows user
> isn't bright enough to actually get it done properly.

Yeah whatever. I'm a rocket scientist (took courses), millionaire by
age 30, successful professional with my own business and I had
problems installing Linux on an old machine, as documented in this
group.


> Unless something
> comes along that radically changes my needs, I'll be dual-booting
> Windows/Ubuntu from now on. There are simply too many desirable
> aspects to each OS to ignore.
>

Good for you. And the 1% that's like you. For the rest of us,
there's Windows or Mac.

RL

Chris Ahlstrom

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Mar 26, 2011, 8:42:04 AM3/26/11
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RayLopez99 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Mar 26, 6:37?pm, GrtArtiste <nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
>> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
>> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?
>
> No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
> why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
> wants them?

10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.

The GUIs on Linux make it pretty easy, just a matter of finding the menu
entries and understanding which new names go with old functionality.

Sort of like trying to learn the MS Office ribbon interface, eh?

--
Many changes of mind and mood; do not hesitate too long.

Big Steel

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Mar 26, 2011, 8:48:29 AM3/26/11
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LOL, so Linux home users know a few line commands -- big deal. It
doesn't make the home user clowns smart. Any grease monkey can read
documentation and type line commands. :) Those same Linux home user
grease monkeys, who are sitting high on their horse, are a total joke
And the lot of the fools use MS. :)

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 11:25:33 AM3/26/11
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 08:42:04 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> RayLopez99 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Mar 26, 6:37?pm, GrtArtiste <nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
>>> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
>>> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?
>>
>> No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
>> why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
>> wants them?
>
> 10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.

Terry Porter said it takes 10 years to learn Linux.

JEDIDIAH

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Mar 26, 2011, 2:38:49 PM3/26/11
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That's a pretty pathetic rationale.

At least "lack of games" might have made some sense.

So would have "lack of driver support" for stuff like iPads.

Office software is the most trivial nonsense someone like that could
possibly come up with.

--
On the subject of kilobyte being "redefined" to mean 1000 bytes...

When I was a wee lad, I was taught that SI units were |||
meant to be computationally convenient rather than just / | \
arbitrarily assigned.

Clog_-_wog (®)

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Mar 26, 2011, 3:34:00 PM3/26/11
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"Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@xzoozy.com> schreef in bericht
news:imkmut$t2v$2...@dont-email.me...

> RayLopez99 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Mar 26, 6:37?pm, GrtArtiste <nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
>>> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
>>> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?
>>
>> No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
>> why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
>> wants them?
>
> 10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.

Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?


>
> The GUIs on Linux make it pretty easy, just a matter of finding the menu
> entries and understanding which new names go with old functionality.
>
> Sort of like trying to learn the MS Office ribbon interface, eh?
>

"command-line stuff" has no future!, just a relic of old school computing!

owl

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Mar 26, 2011, 3:58:50 PM3/26/11
to
Clog_-_wog (®) <clog_...@anonimous.eu> wrote:
> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@xzoozy.com> schreef in bericht
> news:imkmut$t2v$2...@dont-email.me...
> > RayLopez99 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
> >
> >> On Mar 26, 6:37?pm, GrtArtiste <nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
> >>> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
> >>> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?
> >>
> >> No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
> >> why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
> >> wants them?
> >
> > 10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.

> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?

To make tedious things easy.

> >
> > The GUIs on Linux make it pretty easy, just a matter of finding the menu
> > entries and understanding which new names go with old functionality.
> >
> > Sort of like trying to learn the MS Office ribbon interface, eh?
> >
> "command-line stuff" has no future!, just a relic of old school computing!

Makes you wonder why O'Reilly's "Active Directory Cookbook" -- about 1000
pages of "command line stuff" -- is now in its third edition.

Snit

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Mar 26, 2011, 4:03:16 PM3/26/11
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owl stated in post 97aerf...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 12:58 PM:

> Clog_-_wog (Ž) <clog_...@anonimous.eu> wrote:
>> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@xzoozy.com> schreef in bericht
>> news:imkmut$t2v$2...@dont-email.me...
>>> RayLopez99 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>>> On Mar 26, 6:37?pm, GrtArtiste <nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
>>>>> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
>>>>> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?
>>>>
>>>> No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
>>>> why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
>>>> wants them?
>>>
>>> 10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.
>
>> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?
>
> To make tedious things easy.

Such as? Give 2 or 3 things a non-techie user is likely to do where the
command line would be the best way. Sure, there are times it might be
faster, but worth learning a completely different way of doing things just
to get these tasks done.

...


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


owl

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Mar 26, 2011, 4:22:35 PM3/26/11
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Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> owl stated in post 97aerf...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 12:58 PM:

Why does it have to be a non-techie user? But even so, a "techie" can
give a non-techie user a command-line solution to a problem that is very
tedious to accomplish with just the GUI.

Not that this person is a non-techie, but someone here mentioned a problem
last week with deleting xx GB of duplicate files from his mp3 player,
where the dupes had gibberish filenames. The problem was solved from
the command line with a very short script, callable by the oh-so-geeky
command line:

$ ./scriptname <directory>

where <directory> was the root of the problem hierarchy.

GUI is best for some things. For others, command line cannot be beat.

Clog_-_wog (®)

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Mar 26, 2011, 4:23:07 PM3/26/11
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"owl" <o...@rooftop.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:97aerf...@rooftop.invalid...

1000 pages of "command line stuff" in two month?, pretty boring I guess!
I do care about Mr. O'Reilly!
http://www.whiskyambassador.co.uk/

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 4:25:11 PM3/26/11
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 20:34:00 +0100, Clog_-_wog (Ž) wrote:

> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@xzoozy.com> schreef in bericht
> news:imkmut$t2v$2...@dont-email.me...
>> RayLopez99 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On Mar 26, 6:37?pm, GrtArtiste <nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
>>>> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
>>>> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?
>>>
>>> No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
>>> why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
>>> wants them?
>>
>> 10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.
>
> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?

Self torture?


>> The GUIs on Linux make it pretty easy, just a matter of finding the menu
>> entries and understanding which new names go with old functionality.
>>
>> Sort of like trying to learn the MS Office ribbon interface, eh?
>>
> "command-line stuff" has no future!, just a relic of old school computing!

It's still around to make Linux dweebs feel superior.

While Jayne is out washing her Yaris, the Linux dweeb can be generating
cli commands faster than you can say Liarmutt.

owl

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Mar 26, 2011, 4:41:13 PM3/26/11
to
Clog_-_wog (®) <clog_...@anonimous.eu> wrote:
> "owl" <o...@rooftop.invalid> schreef in bericht
> >
> > Makes you wonder why O'Reilly's "Active Directory Cookbook" -- about 1000
> > pages of "command line stuff" -- is now in its third edition.
> >

> 1000 pages of "command line stuff" in two month?, pretty boring I guess!

Well, it *is* Windoze, so yeah, pretty boring.

Snit

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Mar 26, 2011, 4:46:56 PM3/26/11
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owl stated in post nfefa3...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 1:22 PM:

> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> owl stated in post 97aerf...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 12:58 PM:
>

>>> Clog_-_wog (Ž) <clog_...@anonimous.eu> wrote:
>>>> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@xzoozy.com> schreef in bericht
>>>> news:imkmut$t2v$2...@dont-email.me...
>>>>> RayLopez99 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 26, 6:37?pm, GrtArtiste <nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
>>>>>>> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
>>>>>>> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
>>>>>> why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
>>>>>> wants them?
>>>>>
>>>>> 10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.
>>>
>>>> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?
>>>
>>> To make tedious things easy.
>
>> Such as? Give 2 or 3 things a non-techie user is likely to do where the
>> command line would be the best way. Sure, there are times it might be
>> faster, but worth learning a completely different way of doing things just
>> to get these tasks done.
>
> Why does it have to be a non-techie user? But even so, a "techie" can
> give a non-techie user a command-line solution to a problem that is very
> tedious to accomplish with just the GUI.

And hence the non-techie would not have to learn the command line.

> Not that this person is a non-techie, but someone here mentioned a problem
> last week with deleting xx GB of duplicate files from his mp3 player,
> where the dupes had gibberish filenames. The problem was solved from
> the command line with a very short script, callable by the oh-so-geeky
> command line:
>
> $ ./scriptname <directory>
>
> where <directory> was the root of the problem hierarchy.
>
> GUI is best for some things. For others, command line cannot be beat.

Sure: but for most users they simply have no need for it nor desire to learn
it. Do not get me wrong - I am happy OS X has a command line and one of my
wishes for older Mac OS was for it to get a command line. I spoke of this
*years* before OS X was around... but for most users the command line is
something they should *never* have to learn to use well... and likely never
even have to see.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 4:42:30 PM3/26/11
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Its not about being "worth learning" if you can't think of anything you
need to do with the command line, you probably don't need it. A good
example of use of the command line would be joining a folder of files
together, if I had a folder of .txt files and say split rar files how
would one make a single file of each type on the windows desktop without
resorting to third party software or the cli?

Last time I ran Windows in the home, I remember spending far longer in
the command line than I ever did with Linux, infact the only reason I
find myself dipping into it now regularly is for examples like the above
or an occasional edit to my resolv.conf

I have installed around 50 deployments of Linux for "non-techie" users
and despite approx 7 wanting Windows back, the rest were very happy and
not one has had to resort to the command or ask me to. Why do people
perpetuate the myth that Linux = Command line?

It does though pose an interesting point, with less of an interest to
"get hands dirty" in general and this "one click fix for one click fix"
ethos that Windows claims to offer, it comes as no surprise that there
is a general dumbing down of computing skill as you have an entire
generation of computer users who know HOW to do something but have no
clue WHY it works.

Remember the days of A500 dev? Dpaint, Devpac and 880k floppy. No fancy
GUIs, no hand holding. Funny, it produced some rather talented people
and certainly didn't harm the migration of computers into the home.
Food for thought there.

--

Openbytes - the Linux/FOSS Blogazine! http://www.openbytes.tk
"Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui."

Mail: bytes...@googlemail.com
Skype: tim.openbytes
Identi.ca: http://identi.ca/openbytes
Twitter: http://twitter.com/_goblin

owl

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Mar 26, 2011, 4:57:49 PM3/26/11
to

Unless the user is a complete idiot, he could not have helped but learn
a little bit of the command line at that point just by running the solution
he was given.


> > Not that this person is a non-techie, but someone here mentioned a problem
> > last week with deleting xx GB of duplicate files from his mp3 player,
> > where the dupes had gibberish filenames. The problem was solved from
> > the command line with a very short script, callable by the oh-so-geeky
> > command line:
> >
> > $ ./scriptname <directory>
> >
> > where <directory> was the root of the problem hierarchy.
> >
> > GUI is best for some things. For others, command line cannot be beat.

> Sure: but for most users they simply have no need for it nor desire to learn
> it. Do not get me wrong - I am happy OS X has a command line and one of my
> wishes for older Mac OS was for it to get a command line. I spoke of this
> *years* before OS X was around... but for most users the command line is
> something they should *never* have to learn to use well... and likely never
> even have to see.

Why do you want to keep the power of the command line a secret from the
user?

7

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:10:29 PM3/26/11
to
JEDIDIAH wrote:

> On 2011-03-26, RayLopez99 <raylo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> PC world or mag (online) has a editorial by Lincoln Spector I think
>> was the name on switching to Linux from Windows. It was a fair and
>> balanced piece, and the author made sure to not slam Linux, but the
>> verdict was don't switch. Reasons: not as easy to use Linux, non-
>> Word / non-Office suites not as good as Microsoft Office.
>
> That's a pretty pathetic rationale.
>
> At least "lack of games" might have made some sense.
>
> So would have "lack of driver support" for stuff like iPads.
>
> Office software is the most trivial nonsense someone like that could
> possibly come up with.

Interestingly enough, it is the asstroturfer raydope fabricating a troll
that made up all the bulk of the anti-Linux claims.

The article is one of those where the guy sez this and sez that
and its neither this nor that but a how to to get on to Linux.
In short a modest pro Linux article.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/222540/should_i_switch_to_linux.html

Somebody should write to pcworld warning them that micoshaft/appil
trolls are targetting pcworld.


Big Steel

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:13:24 PM3/26/11
to

His parting shot...

<copied from article>

And yes, you can uninstall Ubuntu like you can any Windows program

Ezekiel

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:13:51 PM3/26/11
to

"Goblin" <bytes...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:Qhsjp.48499$2H.1...@newsfe15.ams2...

> On 03/26/2011 08:03 PM, Snit wrote:
>> owl stated in post 97aerf...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 12:58 PM:
>>
>>
> Its not about being "worth learning" if you can't think of anything you
> need to do with the command line, you probably don't need it. A good
> example of use of the command line would be joining a folder of files
> together, if I had a folder of .txt files and say split rar files how
> would one make a single file of each type on the windows desktop without
> resorting to third party software or the cli?
>
This falls in the "if you can't think of anything you need to do with the
CLI..." because 98 of 100 general computer users would never even think to
concat all of the .txt files into one.

> It does though pose an interesting point, with less of an interest to
> "get hands dirty" in general and this "one click fix for one click fix"
> ethos that Windows claims to offer, it comes as no surprise that there
> is a general dumbing down of computing skill as you have an entire
> generation of computer users who know HOW to do something but have no
> clue WHY it works.
>

It's a matter of "economics" - it takes a lot more work to learn with only
marginal more benefit. The effort/benefit ratio isn't a worthwhile trade for
most people.

It's the same reason fewer people fix their own cars or repair their
television sets or sew their own clothes. It takes a *lot* more investment
in time and effort to get your computer skills where someone can type: cat
*.txt > bigfile.txt and they get what out of it??? The ability to concat
*.txt files the 1 or 2 times they'll actually need to do this in their life.
Whereas it's much easier to get a "working knowledge" of computers where
people can do the 98% of things they commonly do.


> Remember the days of A500 dev? Dpaint, Devpac and 880k floppy. No fancy
> GUIs, no hand holding. Funny, it produced some rather talented people
> and certainly didn't harm the migration of computers into the home.
> Food for thought there.
>

Making computers easier to use is what *did* get them into the home.
Computers did *not* get into the home because of floppy drives, lack of
handholding and primitive CLIs.


Chris

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:03:50 PM3/26/11
to
Am Sat, 26 Mar 2011 20:34:00 +0100 schrieb Clog_-_wog (®):

> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?

...

> "command-line stuff" has no future!, just a relic of old school
> computing!

Because if you learn it you know much better what is going on. Even for
many guis as they are just GUIs for command line programs. If you know
how stuff works you will be able to understand and fix things faster.

Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:18:37 PM3/26/11
to
No, but then another example would be a split video file....but we could
debate this point forever (and since I said "if you can't think of a
reason you don't need it") I stand by my view that the CLI is there for
people that want to learn it, not as an mandatory part of using Linux.

"Making computers easier to use is what *did* get them into the home."

But at what cost? Certainly the A500, ST/E never had the hand holding
we see today and they had rather a large userbase and in anycase I would
dispute what you say since I think the migration would have still taken
place, merely slightly slower. The point was, everything should need an
investment of time and I cite the car as an excellent example....if you
want to have the benefits of a car, you don't just jump into one and
automatically are able to drive it...you need to invest time in learning
to use it and learning the rules of the road. You have to weigh up if
you want to invest the time learning to drive against the benefits it
would offer you if you did.

In my view the same should be for computing, because the alternative is
to be utterly dependent on others since you've led a completely hand
held computer life. Being dependent on others is not a good thing and a
little (and I stress little) knowledge only empowers users not
inconveniences them.

Maybe its why "repair" shops and PC Sellers are so desperate for the
average user NOT to be empowered with knowledge.....they can't make any
money from them.

Ezekiel

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:24:57 PM3/26/11
to

"Chris" <chris...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:imlkbm$b6q$1...@inf2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de...

> Am Sat, 26 Mar 2011 20:34:00 +0100 schrieb Clog_-_wog (Ž):
>
>> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?
>
> ...
>
>> "command-line stuff" has no future!, just a relic of old school
>> computing!
>
> Because if you learn it you know much better what is going on. Even for
> many guis as they are just GUIs for command line programs. If you know
> how stuff works you will be able to understand and fix things faster.
>

And if you would learn home dentistry or learn how to make your own sausage
or learn to weld you would have a better how those things work. But few
people have the interest or inclination to do that either.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:27:01 PM3/26/11
to

I agree.
With Linux knowing the command line is a must.
So is knowing how to construct proper search arguments in Google.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:28:20 PM3/26/11
to

And down goes Gobbler......

Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:26:05 PM3/26/11
to
On 03/26/2011 09:27 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
> With Linux knowing the command line is a must.

Come on. I don't take you for a fool, nor do I take you for someone who
hasn't used what they discuss. But really -command line is a must? Do
I need to get my brother in law on the TechBytes show who thought that
Linux is made by Microsoft and doesn't even understand what the command
line is to explain that for the past year he has been using very
productively Mint?

Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:26:40 PM3/26/11
to

Not really, at least wait to see my retort.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:34:32 PM3/26/11
to
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:18:37 +0000, Goblin wrote:


> Maybe its why "repair" shops and PC Sellers are so desperate for the
> average user NOT to be empowered with knowledge.....they can't make any
> money from them.

I knew there was a conspiracy theory in there somewhere.

Neither can tailors, car repairmen, landscapers, doctors, lawyers,
engineers, Indian chiefs etc.....

Is this all one large conspiracy?
What part about cost effective do you not understand?

My daughter the lawyer bills at ~ $350/hour, if her computer server has
a problem she calls IBM and in 2 hours they are on site with a part or
solution and repair it assuming they can't fix it over the phone.

She spends her time preparing cases, learning the law and perusing her
chosen career. Why the hell would she want to spend time learning the
CLI so she can hunt around looking inside some cryptic files she doesn't
understand anyway?

Is knowledge a good thing?
Sure it is, but you have to put it into perspective.
What knowledge is good to know and will pay off vs the time spent
acquiring that knowledge at a loss in income.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:35:21 PM3/26/11
to

Rope-A-Doped.

The problem is the freetards think people have nothing better to do than
tinker with computers.
Some people don't.
Most people do.

Big Steel

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:36:47 PM3/26/11
to
On 3/26/2011 5:18 PM, Goblin wrote:

>
> "Making computers easier to use is what *did* get them into the home."

A mistake, because it did nothing but make home user cowboys and clowns.
The computer/Information Technology world was much better off without
the home user messing things up. They should have kept the home user
locked out.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:40:28 PM3/26/11
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On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:26:05 +0000, Goblin wrote:

> On 03/26/2011 09:27 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> With Linux knowing the command line is a must.
>
> Come on. I don't take you for a fool, nor do I take you for someone who
> hasn't used what they discuss. But really -command line is a must? Do
> I need to get my brother in law on the TechBytes show who thought that
> Linux is made by Microsoft and doesn't even understand what the command
> line is to explain that for the past year he has been using very
> productively Mint?

That's pretty funny actually :)

I was being "factitious" in my original comments BTW....

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:42:09 PM3/26/11
to

That thought has crossed my mind on occasion, especially when it comes
to every George, Marti and [Homer] running a home studio and thinking
they are George Benson or something.

Still, I make a decent amount of money fixing up the messes these goobs
create for themselves.

Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:41:11 PM3/26/11
to

Conspiracy? What are you on about? You make a valid point. If people
learned the skills that they rely on others for then they wouldn't be
dependent on them. Theres no conspiracy there that I can see. Down
goes Flatfish+++?

In all seriousness though of course we can't be expected to learn
everything about everything. The point was two fold, firstly a
challenge to this silly myth about Linux = Command Line and secondly to
show that an investment of time (just like in the car scenario) can
yield good results. I don't think its unfair to say that asking for an
investment of time to use any platform is such a bad thing.

Maybe if people didn't blunder around cyberspace using a PC they had no
clue about, then we wouldn't have a botnet problem nor people making
money out of people for simple fixes.

And Flatfish can you please grow up a little and stop with the freetard.
Check out the piracy stats for Windows binaries.....and also compare
donations on multiplatform software...I think you will find that instead
of the Linux users, its the Windows users that want things for free.
Just look at the gifting that goes on to pro-Microsoft bloggers....you
are all wanting something for nothing.

Best of British.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:48:57 PM3/26/11
to
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:26:05 +0000, Goblin wrote:

Do
> I need to get my brother in law on the TechBytes show

Speaking of Techbytes, would you kindly take up a collection and buy
Schestowitz a decent microphone?
One that doesn't emphasize his naturally nasal and quite annoying vocal
tone. And tell him to lean into it when he talks as it will deepen his
voice.

Try an Audio-Technica AT2020 which runs about $100.00 USD.

The mic you are using sounds very nice,
What mic is it?

Chris

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:36:10 PM3/26/11
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Am Sat, 26 Mar 2011 17:24:57 -0400 schrieb Ezekiel:

> And if you would learn home dentistry or learn how to make your own
> sausage or learn to weld you would have a better how those things work.
> But few people have the interest or inclination to do that either.

Yes, if your view is that the computer is "just another tool".
But in my opinion it is a very special tool and to use it efficiently the
learning curve is much higher than with default tools like for example a
car that has a very limited standard usage pattern.

Big Steel

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:52:50 PM3/26/11
to

What kills me is those clowns tossing up a Web server on the public
Internet IIS or Apache thinking they have a clue of how to protect it.
Hell, IT professionals have a hard time protecting them, and they can
hardly do it. And yet, you have home user clowns tossing up sites, and
they don't have a clue on how to protect the site or the Web server.
Those sites are nothing but a jumping off point for hackers to attack
sties and cover their tracks.

Ezekiel

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:55:00 PM3/26/11
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"Goblin" <bytes...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:FPsjp.76304$%e2....@newsfe13.ams2...
There will always be a CLI (or equivalent) on any computer that I can
envision for the types of tasks/users who need this. But as you wrote, it's
there for those who want it and it's not mandatory. I spend my work week at
a CLI and I appreciate what it can do. But when I see friends, family and
neighbors using a computer it's completely clear to me that the average user
will never accept the CLI.

> "Making computers easier to use is what *did* get them into the home."
>
> But at what cost? Certainly the A500, ST/E never had the hand holding
> we see today and they had rather a large userbase
>

I think that many (likely most) of these computers were used to play games.
There was a large hobbyist segment as well but in it's best year these only
sold about 1-million machines. It's "a lot" but not so much by today's sales
figures.


> and in anycase I would
> dispute what you say since I think the migration would have still taken
> place, merely slightly slower.
>

If computers only at a CLI and no GUI then I think popularity would have
grown but would have run into a "glass ceiling." A simple easy-to-use GUI
makes computers accessible and usable by a much larger segment of the
population.

> The point was, everything should need an
> investment of time and I cite the car as an excellent example....if you
> want to have the benefits of a car, you don't just jump into one and
> automatically are able to drive it...you need to invest time in learning
> to use it and learning the rules of the road. You have to weigh up if
> you want to invest the time learning to drive against the benefits it
> would offer you if you did.
>

Part of the (mandatory) investment in learning to drive and rules of the
road is public safety. People can get injured or even killed without
adequately trained drivers.

The average person that I know doesn't care about "the computer" - they care
what they can *do* with the computer. People care about being able to access
Facebook, post their pet photos and whatever else. Whether their HDD is
SATA-1 or SATA-2 and whether the default shell is ksh or bash is not what
anyone but a handful of geeks cares about.


> In my view the same should be for computing, because the alternative is
> to be utterly dependent on others since you've led a completely hand
> held computer life. Being dependent on others is not a good thing and a
> little (and I stress little) knowledge only empowers users not
> inconveniences them.
>

For people who are *interested* and care about computers then they are
probably doing this on their own. But far from everyone will be interested
enough in computers to care. There are people out there with cameras who
could claim that "everyone should learn the proper way to do photography"
and there's some stereophile who will insist that "everyone become
knowledgeable about music" and the chef who insists that everyone should
learn and understand the difference between a sauce and a gravy.

Because *you* happen to care about computers doesn't mean that everyone
cares about the same interests you care about.

> Maybe its why "repair" shops and PC Sellers are so desperate for the
> average user NOT to be empowered with knowledge.....they can't make any
> money from them.
>

That's the same thing a plumber says after he makes a house call on a
weekend to fix something that the homeowner could learn to do on their own.
But most people aren't going to learn how to do plumbing repairs either. Not
because it's hard... but because they really don't care about plumbing
anymore than they care about how a computer works.

Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:50:01 PM3/26/11
to
On 03/26/2011 09:40 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
> I was being "factitious" in my original comments BTW....

Im sure and whatever the response you would have a counter.

I don't know what your purpose is Gary (if that is indeed your name) I'm
not particularly bothered either. Your attempts to put labels on people
fail and I don't know how you think you are perceived by the casual
reader of this group, but I would guess its very different from reality.

You try to cheapen people here with your remarks and whilst I don't
agree with many opinions that I read in this newsgroup you merely serve
to instantly make me side with any that oppose you.

Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:50:57 PM3/26/11
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Its an HP headset...about £30 from Comet.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:00:33 PM3/26/11
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You said:

"Maybe its why "repair" shops and PC Sellers are so desperate for the
average user NOT to be empowered with knowledge.....they can't make any
money from them."

> In all seriousness though of course we can't be expected to learn


> everything about everything. The point was two fold, firstly a
> challenge to this silly myth about Linux = Command Line and secondly to
> show that an investment of time (just like in the car scenario) can
> yield good results. I don't think its unfair to say that asking for an
> investment of time to use any platform is such a bad thing.

It depends upon what you require from the platform or what the platform
requires from you.
My daughter is lawyer, she knows applications and knows squat about how
computers work.
She doesn't give a hoot because she is too busy using applications that
pay her bills.
Same for my neighbor who is a neurologist.
He calls me to fix his LAN when is screws up.
I in return get frequent trips out in his cigarette boat.


> Maybe if people didn't blunder around cyberspace using a PC they had no
> clue about, then we wouldn't have a botnet problem nor people making
> money out of people for simple fixes.

Same could be said of any trade.
He, let's all learn to remove tumors.
Screw those Doctors making millions of dollars per year.
We can do it ourselves!!!



> And Flatfish can you please grow up a little and stop with the freetard.

Why?
Does it bother you?
COLA Linux "advocates" for the most part *are* fretards.

> Check out the piracy stats for Windows binaries.....and also compare
> donations on multiplatform software...I think you will find that instead
> of the Linux users, its the Windows users that want things for free.

Microsoft is helping donate money to Japan, albeit the Bing method isn't
the best way.
So what are the freetards doing?

Loki went out of business because Linux users refused to pay for games.

You guys want it all for free.
Which is fine until you hypocrite out, like [Homer], and expect others
to do what you aren't even doing.


> Just look at the gifting that goes on to pro-Microsoft bloggers....you
> are all wanting something for nothing.

I'm not a pro Microsoft blogger?
I'm on record slamming Microsoft and their dirty tactics.

However, the Linux community is much worse with their LIEing for LIEnux.


> Best of British.

TaTa for now... (Lame I know, but it was the best I could think of!)

Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 5:58:47 PM3/26/11
to
On 03/26/2011 10:00 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
> is helping donate money to Japan, albeit the Bing method isn't
> the best way.
> So what are the freetards doing?
>
> Loki went out of bu

Yes freetard does bother me for two reasons:

1. Because its a take on a rather derogatory word for someone with
learning difficulties.

2. Because like I say, look at the numbers on TPB or any tracker, look
how many Windows users want stuff for free.

So not only is it insulting its also incorrect. Thats the problem I
have with the word. I hope its clear now.

Ezekiel

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:05:37 PM3/26/11
to

"Chris" <chris...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:imlm8a$b6q$3...@inf2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de...

To a computer buff the computer is a very special tool.

To the photography fan the camera is a very special tool.

To a golf fanatic the golf club is a special tool.

To the home chef the ability to cook is a very special tool. (Everyone needs
to eat after all.)

etc, etc, etc.


Different people have different interests. Don't expect a photographer to
know any more about computers than you know about the inner workings of a
digital SLR.


flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:19:03 PM3/26/11
to
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:50:01 +0000, Goblin wrote:

> On 03/26/2011 09:40 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> I was being "factitious" in my original comments BTW....
>
> Im sure and whatever the response you would have a counter.
>
> I don't know what your purpose is Gary (if that is indeed your name) I'm
> not particularly bothered either. Your attempts to put labels on people
> fail and I don't know how you think you are perceived by the casual
> reader of this group, but I would guess its very different from reality.
>
> You try to cheapen people here with your remarks and whilst I don't
> agree with many opinions that I read in this newsgroup you merely serve
> to instantly make me side with any that oppose you.

How does one cheapen a person like 7?
A fraud.
How does one cheapen a person like chrisv?
How about Willy Poaster?
How about Chris Ahlstrom?

I could go on for pages.

These people cheapen themselves by their actions, and don't try and deny
it because everyone knows it.

You will side with the freetard every time unless I or some other person
feeds you everything you want to hear.
Then all of a sudden, that same person, like me for example, is your
best friend.

It's happening on IRC, and has for quite a while.
And you goobs are sucked in so deep the Mariana Trench looks like a
gully on the neighborhood road to the local pub.

At some point I'll drop the ball, but it's just too much fun for now.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:19:21 PM3/26/11
to
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:50:57 +0000, Goblin wrote:

> On 03/26/2011 09:48 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:26:05 +0000, Goblin wrote:
>>
>> Do
>>> I need to get my brother in law on the TechBytes show
>>
>> Speaking of Techbytes, would you kindly take up a collection and buy
>> Schestowitz a decent microphone?
>> One that doesn't emphasize his naturally nasal and quite annoying vocal
>> tone. And tell him to lean into it when he talks as it will deepen his
>> voice.
>>
>> Try an Audio-Technica AT2020 which runs about $100.00 USD.
>>
>> The mic you are using sounds very nice,
>> What mic is it?
>
> Its an HP headset...about £30 from Comet.

It sounds very good.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:20:04 PM3/26/11
to

That's a big problem.
The ISP I have tries it's best to shut them down but it's an endless
job.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:25:10 PM3/26/11
to
On Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:58:47 +0000, Goblin wrote:

> On 03/26/2011 10:00 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
>> is helping donate money to Japan, albeit the Bing method isn't
>> the best way.
>> So what are the freetards doing?
>>
>> Loki went out of bu
>
> Yes freetard does bother me for two reasons:
>
> 1. Because its a take on a rather derogatory word for someone with
> learning difficulties.
>
> 2. Because like I say, look at the numbers on TPB or any tracker, look
> how many Windows users want stuff for free.
>
> So not only is it insulting its also incorrect. Thats the problem I
> have with the word. I hope its clear now.

So don't read my posts.
Simple as that.
While I would love to take credit for the term, I didn't invent it.
I did however come up with LIEing For LIEnux.

I really don't care what you Linux loons think.
You should remain festering in your static and blaming everyone and
everything even remotely possible for Linux's desktop failure.
That's something you freetards are good at.

Marti Van Lin

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:32:32 PM3/26/11
to
On 26-03-11 21:42, Goblin wrote:
> On 03/26/2011 08:03 PM, Snit wrote:
>> owl stated in post 97aerf...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 12:58 PM:
>>
>>> Clog_-_wog (Ž)<clog_...@anonimous.eu> wrote:
>>>> "Chris Ahlstrom"<ahls...@xzoozy.com> schreef in bericht
>>>> news:imkmut$t2v$2...@dont-email.me...
>>>>> RayLopez99 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 26, 6:37?pm, GrtArtiste<nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
>>>>>>> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
>>>>>>> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
>>>>>> why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
>>>>>> wants them?
>>>>>
>>>>> 10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.

>>>
>>>> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?
>>>
>>> To make tedious things easy.
>>
>> Such as? Give 2 or 3 things a non-techie user is likely to do where the
>> command line would be the best way. Sure, there are times it might be
>> faster, but worth learning a completely different way of doing things just
>> to get these tasks done.
>>
>> ...

>>
>>
> Its not about being "worth learning" if you can't think of anything you
> need to do with the command line, you probably don't need it. A good
> example of use of the command line would be joining a folder of files
> together, if I had a folder of .txt files and say split rar files how
> would one make a single file of each type on the windows desktop without
> resorting to third party software or the cli?
>
> Last time I ran Windows in the home, I remember spending far longer in
> the command line than I ever did with Linux, infact the only reason I
> find myself dipping into it now regularly is for examples like the above
> or an occasional edit to my resolv.conf
>
> I have installed around 50 deployments of Linux for "non-techie" users
> and despite approx 7 wanting Windows back, the rest were very happy and
> not one has had to resort to the command or ask me to. Why do people
> perpetuate the myth that Linux = Command line?

>
> It does though pose an interesting point, with less of an interest to
> "get hands dirty" in general and this "one click fix for one click fix"
> ethos that Windows claims to offer, it comes as no surprise that there
> is a general dumbing down of computing skill as you have an entire
> generation of computer users who know HOW to do something but have no
> clue WHY it works.
>
> Remember the days of A500 dev? Dpaint, Devpac and 880k floppy. No fancy
> GUIs, no hand holding. Funny, it produced some rather talented people
> and certainly didn't harm the migration of computers into the home.
> Food for thought there.

I doubt that neither Snit, Clogwog nor RayLopez have the slightest clue
what you are writing about Tim, but I do. Remember I still produce my
music the "Amiga" way (using Tracker editors).

Beside that IMO there is nothing wrong with a cli, to the contrary. And
to those who prefer to avoid a cli, it's simply a matter of copy and paste.

BTW I Love the looks of the restyled openbytes. Great work Tim!

With kind regards,

--
|_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin, alias ML2MST
|_|_|0| Registered GNU/Linux user 513040
|0|0|0| http://osg33x.blogspot.com

Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:36:07 PM3/26/11
to
On 03/26/2011 10:25 PM, flatfish+++ wrote:
> While I would love to take credit for the term, I didn't invent it.
> I did however come up with LIEing For LIEnux.

Its not just you who says it and I quite believe you didn't invent it,
but did that excuse wash with your mother when you said a swear word?

But Gary, as I say, putting aside its offensive meaning, its wrong. Or
would you like to dispute that the vast majority of piracy is committed
by Windows users after a freebie? Check any swarm you like, check out
which client they are running. Its a very good indicator of the platform.

flatfish+++

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:41:13 PM3/26/11
to

Actually there is some truth in concept to what Tim is saying, wrt
music.

Back in the days of tape the best was a punch in.
Studio time was expensive and the band had to know the tunes BEFORE they
hit the studio unless they were The Beatles on a bottomless budget.

What that did was produce disciplined musicians, singers and engineers.

In fact this month's Tape Op Magazine has an excellent article on just
that.

These days it's just too easy to fix in the mix which is one reason why
today's music is just so terrible as a whole.

I played on a session a couple of weeks ago where the drummer didn't
even have a drum key with him and the lead guitar player had to send the
gopher out for some strings.
Hey, I'm getting $200/hr to drink cafe so I don't care.
It just goes to show how lazy some have become because of technology.

Goblin

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:41:12 PM3/26/11
to
Cheers Marti! I hope you will be on the show soon, Roy said there was
difficulties when you tried to connect the last time.

The template for the site is just a standard wordpress one but it is
nice (btw though my wife doesnt like it)

Kind regards

Marti Van Lin

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Mar 26, 2011, 6:59:42 PM3/26/11
to
On 26-03-11 19:38, JEDIDIAH wrote:

> On 2011-03-26, RayLopez99<raylo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> PC world or mag (online) has a editorial by Lincoln Spector I think
>> was the name on switching to Linux from Windows. It was a fair and
>> balanced piece, and the author made sure to not slam Linux, but the
>> verdict was don't switch. Reasons: not as easy to use Linux, non-
>> Word / non-Office suites not as good as Microsoft Office.
>
> That's a pretty pathetic rationale.
>
> At least "lack of games" might have made some sense.

It might, yet I object. All my favourite MSX, MS-DOS, Amiga, Windows and
native Linux games run just fine under GNU/Linux. Some of the MS-DOS
games even have native Linux ports with extended openGL support,
including MAME :-p

> So would have "lack of driver support" for stuff like iPads.
>
> Office software is the most trivial nonsense someone like that could
> possibly come up with.

Oh well it's Dopez with his same tired old shite...

Chris Ahlstrom

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Mar 26, 2011, 7:02:57 PM3/26/11
to
owl wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Clog_-_wog (?) <clog_...@anonimous.eu> wrote:
>> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@xzoozy.com> schreef in bericht
>> >

>> > 10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.
>
>> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?
>
> To make tedious things easy.
>

>> > Sort of like trying to learn the MS Office ribbon interface, eh?


>> >
>> "command-line stuff" has no future!, just a relic of old school computing!
>

> Makes you wonder why O'Reilly's "Active Directory Cookbook" -- about 1000
> pages of "command line stuff" -- is now in its third edition.

Quite funny, isn't it? Microsoft is providing more and more command-line
tools (e.g. PowerShell). And that is a good thing, really. Makes you
wonder why the Windows fanbois are griping about command-lines.

GUIs for the noobs, command-line for those who like to learn. Schweet.

--
Intel CPUs are not defective, they just act that way.
-- Henry Spencer

Big Steel

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Mar 26, 2011, 7:04:54 PM3/26/11
to
On 3/26/2011 7:02 PM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

GUIs for the noobs, command-line for those who like to learn and have a
brain fart.


Chris

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 8:31:59 PM3/26/11
to
Am Sat, 26 Mar 2011 18:05:37 -0400 schrieb Ezekiel:

> To a computer buff the computer is a very special tool.

...

> Different people have different interests. Don't expect a photographer
> to know any more about computers than you know about the inner workings
> of a digital SLR.

But we have the 21st century now. Computers will probably becoming even
more important in the near future.
Of course for most use cases there will probably be specialized devices/
operating systems/appliances like today's DVD players but I think people
who really need to work with their computers cannot afford to be barely
able to operate them. But we will only see with time...

Just think about it: For how many years have GUI-fans declared the
command line dead because GUIs are so much easier? Yet, many people
actually prefer using command line tools for certain tasks and even
Microsoft creates the Powershell, because the capabilities of cmd.exe are
too limited (for what, if nobody uses it?).

Snit

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Mar 26, 2011, 9:01:07 PM3/26/11
to
Goblin stated in post Qhsjp.48499$2H.1...@newsfe15.ams2 on 3/26/11 1:42 PM:

> On 03/26/2011 08:03 PM, Snit wrote:
>> owl stated in post 97aerf...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 12:58 PM:
>>

>>> Clog_-_wog (Ž) <clog_...@anonimous.eu> wrote:
>>>> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@xzoozy.com> schreef in bericht

>>>> news:imkmut$t2v$2...@dont-email.me...
>>>>> RayLopez99 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 26, 6:37?pm, GrtArtiste <nineo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Everything has a learning curve. I can't count how many users I know
>>>>>>> who still can't use Windows properly. Isn't a little simplistic to say
>>>>>>> NO primarily because of his preference for MS Office?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. Why reinvent the wheel? If you spent a decade learning Windows,
>>>>>> why spend another 10 years trying to relearn things the way Linux
>>>>>> wants them?
>>>>>

>>>>> 10 years? Try a month or two. And that's for the command-line stuff.
>>>
>>>> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?
>>>
>>> To make tedious things easy.
>>

>> Such as? Give 2 or 3 things a non-techie user is likely to do where the
>> command line would be the best way. Sure, there are times it might be

>> faster, but worth learning a completely different way of doing things just
>> to get these tasks done.


>>
> Its not about being "worth learning" if you can't think of anything you
> need to do with the command line, you probably don't need it.

So do not learn what it does better until you have a need for it? Um, but
then how do you know?

> A good example of use of the command line would be joining a folder of files
> together, if I had a folder of .txt files and say split rar files how would
> one make a single file of each type on the windows desktop without resorting
> to third party software or the cli?

Sort by type and select. That is pretty easy in a GUI.

> Last time I ran Windows in the home, I remember spending far longer in
> the command line than I ever did with Linux, infact the only reason I
> find myself dipping into it now regularly is for examples like the above
> or an occasional edit to my resolv.conf
>
> I have installed around 50 deployments of Linux for "non-techie" users
> and despite approx 7 wanting Windows back, the rest were very happy and
> not one has had to resort to the command or ask me to. Why do people
> perpetuate the myth that Linux = Command line?

I did not say anything of the sort.

I am merely noting that on a well made modern system, the general user
should never need to go to a command line - with *maybe* the exception of
some troubleshooting command they get from elsewhere. Even then, there is
usually a GUI to handle it.

> It does though pose an interesting point, with less of an interest to
> "get hands dirty" in general and this "one click fix for one click fix"
> ethos that Windows claims to offer, it comes as no surprise that there
> is a general dumbing down of computing skill as you have an entire
> generation of computer users who know HOW to do something but have no
> clue WHY it works.

Huh? I do not follow. A "generation" ago, only the techies used computers
- there was no GUI.

> Remember the days of A500 dev? Dpaint, Devpac and 880k floppy. No fancy
> GUIs, no hand holding. Funny, it produced some rather talented people
> and certainly didn't harm the migration of computers into the home.
> Food for thought there.

The GUI has allowed *far* more people to use computers.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:02:24 PM3/26/11
to
owl stated in post niu3a...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 1:57 PM:

...


>>>>>> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?
>>>>>
>>>>> To make tedious things easy.
>>>
>>>> Such as? Give 2 or 3 things a non-techie user is likely to do where the
>>>> command line would be the best way. Sure, there are times it might be
>>>> faster, but worth learning a completely different way of doing things just
>>>> to get these tasks done.
>>>

>>> Why does it have to be a non-techie user? But even so, a "techie" can
>>> give a non-techie user a command-line solution to a problem that is very
>>> tedious to accomplish with just the GUI.
>
>> And hence the non-techie would not have to learn the command line.
>
> Unless the user is a complete idiot, he could not have helped but learn
> a little bit of the command line at that point just by running the solution
> he was given.

Nice copout. Do you have an answer?

...
>> Sure: but for most users they simply have no need for it nor desire to learn
>> it. Do not get me wrong - I am happy OS X has a command line and one of my
>> wishes for older Mac OS was for it to get a command line. I spoke of this
>> *years* before OS X was around... but for most users the command line is
>> something they should *never* have to learn to use well... and likely never
>> even have to see.
>
> Why do you want to keep the power of the command line a secret from the
> user?

Who said I did? Really... that is just absurd. I also have no desire to
keep the details of the modern car from drivers, but a driver should not be
expected to be a mechanic.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:03:59 PM3/26/11
to
Ezekiel stated in post imlkum$m7q$1...@dont-email.me on 3/26/11 2:13 PM:

>
> "Goblin" <bytes...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:Qhsjp.48499$2H.1...@newsfe15.ams2...

>> On 03/26/2011 08:03 PM, Snit wrote:
>>> owl stated in post 97aerf...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 12:58 PM:
>>>
>>>

>> Its not about being "worth learning" if you can't think of anything you

>> need to do with the command line, you probably don't need it. A good


>> example of use of the command line would be joining a folder of files
>> together, if I had a folder of .txt files and say split rar files how
>> would one make a single file of each type on the windows desktop without
>> resorting to third party software or the cli?
>>

> This falls in the "if you can't think of anything you need to do with the
> CLI..." because 98 of 100 general computer users would never even think to
> concat all of the .txt files into one.

Ah. I misread his task. Yeah, as written it is a non-issue for most
people.

>> It does though pose an interesting point, with less of an interest to
>> "get hands dirty" in general and this "one click fix for one click fix"
>> ethos that Windows claims to offer, it comes as no surprise that there
>> is a general dumbing down of computing skill as you have an entire
>> generation of computer users who know HOW to do something but have no
>> clue WHY it works.
>>
>

> It's a matter of "economics" - it takes a lot more work to learn with only
> marginal more benefit. The effort/benefit ratio isn't a worthwhile trade for
> most people.
>
> It's the same reason fewer people fix their own cars or repair their
> television sets or sew their own clothes. It takes a *lot* more investment
> in time and effort to get your computer skills where someone can type: cat
> *.txt > bigfile.txt and they get what out of it??? The ability to concat
> *.txt files the 1 or 2 times they'll actually need to do this in their life.
> Whereas it's much easier to get a "working knowledge" of computers where
> people can do the 98% of things they commonly do.

Exactly. GUIs simply serve *most* people better for *most* things.

>> Remember the days of A500 dev? Dpaint, Devpac and 880k floppy. No fancy
>> GUIs, no hand holding. Funny, it produced some rather talented people
>> and certainly didn't harm the migration of computers into the home.
>> Food for thought there.
>>

> Making computers easier to use is what *did* get them into the home.

> Computers did *not* get into the home because of floppy drives, lack of
> handholding and primitive CLIs.

Exactly. There is a reason every modern desktop OS has a GUI.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:07:19 PM3/26/11
to
Goblin stated in post FPsjp.76304$%e2....@newsfe13.ams2 on 3/26/11 2:18 PM:

...


>>> Remember the days of A500 dev? Dpaint, Devpac and 880k floppy. No fancy
>>> GUIs, no hand holding. Funny, it produced some rather talented people
>>> and certainly didn't harm the migration of computers into the home.
>>> Food for thought there.
>>>
>> Making computers easier to use is what *did* get them into the home.
>> Computers did *not* get into the home because of floppy drives, lack of
>> handholding and primitive CLIs.
>>

> No, but then another example would be a split video file....but we could
> debate this point forever (and since I said "if you can't think of a
> reason you don't need it") I stand by my view that the CLI is there for
> people that want to learn it, not as an mandatory part of using Linux.

Oh, I am happy it is there - just as I am happy that OS X has a CLI. But
most users have no use for it and no desire to use it.

> "Making computers easier to use is what *did* get them into the home."
>

> But at what cost?

Computers are *much* cheaper now, too.

> Certainly the A500, ST/E never had the hand holding we see today and they had

> rather a large userbase and in anycase I would dispute what you say since I
> think the migration would have still taken place, merely slightly slower. The


> point was, everything should need an investment of time and I cite the car as
> an excellent example....if you want to have the benefits of a car, you don't
> just jump into one and automatically are able to drive it...you need to invest
> time in learning to use it and learning the rules of the road. You have to
> weigh up if you want to invest the time learning to drive against the benefits
> it would offer you if you did.

But you do not need to know how to be a mechanic.

> In my view the same should be for computing, because the alternative is
> to be utterly dependent on others since you've led a completely hand
> held computer life. Being dependent on others is not a good thing and a
> little (and I stress little) knowledge only empowers users not
> inconveniences them.

Dependent on others? You mean like most people are on mechanics and
plumbers and carpenters?

> Maybe its why "repair" shops and PC Sellers are so desperate for the
> average user NOT to be empowered with knowledge.....they can't make any
> money from them.

Who is desperate for people to not have knowledge? Not all share my love
for helping people become independent, but that is not quite the same. And
why would you need a CLI to become independent on a computer?

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:08:23 PM3/26/11
to
Marti Van Lin stated in post imlpi1$fii$1...@news.albasani.net on 3/26/11 3:32
PM:

>> It does though pose an interesting point, with less of an interest to
>> "get hands dirty" in general and this "one click fix for one click fix"
>> ethos that Windows claims to offer, it comes as no surprise that there
>> is a general dumbing down of computing skill as you have an entire
>> generation of computer users who know HOW to do something but have no
>> clue WHY it works.
>>
>> Remember the days of A500 dev? Dpaint, Devpac and 880k floppy. No fancy
>> GUIs, no hand holding. Funny, it produced some rather talented people
>> and certainly didn't harm the migration of computers into the home.
>> Food for thought there.
>
> I doubt that neither Snit, Clogwog nor RayLopez have the slightest clue
> what you are writing about Tim, but I do.

Why do you think others do not?

> Remember I still produce my
> music the "Amiga" way (using Tracker editors).
>
> Beside that IMO there is nothing wrong with a cli, to the contrary. And
> to those who prefer to avoid a cli, it's simply a matter of copy and paste.
>
> BTW I Love the looks of the restyled openbytes. Great work Tim!
>
> With kind regards,

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Goblin

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:19:58 PM3/26/11
to

Hi Snit, I'll answer your points:

"So do not learn what it does better until you have a need for it? Um,
but then how do you know?"

Because you have a task you want to complete which you find you cannot
do via your desktop. You ask on a forum and are directed to the command
line. Thats one way I'd suggest. Or someone posing the question
"Surely theres a quicker way of doing what Im doing?"

"Sort by type and select. That is pretty easy in a GUI."

What and join them without use of a 3rd party app or CLI? Really?

"I did not say anything of the sort."

And I didn't say you perpetuate such a myth.

"I am merely noting that on a well made modern system, the general user
should never need to go to a command line - with *maybe* the exception
of some troubleshooting command they get from elsewhere. Even then,
there is usually a GUI to handle it."

And that, is exactly the experience with Linux. I'm not saying everyone
should or shouldn't use the command line, what I am saying is Linux =
Command line is untrue, using it is really rather simple and its very
easy to learn and there are many tasks which can be performed quicker
with it.

"Huh? I do not follow. A "generation" ago, only the techies used
computers - there was no GUI."

The point made was that I don't believe the dumbing down of computing
got the computer into the home. I believe it certainly sped the process
up, but what I was saying (and maybe a era that you were not around) was
that even the average user managed quite well on an A500 or similar
which did not hold your hand every step of the way or are you suggesting
that the entire Amiga community from yesteryear were tech experts?

What I point out is that a little learning user side does no harm, and
no matter how user friendly a system is, just like a car, if you have
never used one before you can't just jump in and start driving like an
expert from day one.

"The GUI has allowed *far* more people to use computers."

I'd completely agree and it goes back to my earlier point of how maybe
hand holding and bringing these more people is not such a good thing,
when (as I said) you have users that know how to do something but not
why it works, then you have a generation of computer users dependent on
others. I'd suggest by the amount of users who blunder about in
cyberspace with infected machines, thats not such a good thing. If
Microsoft can't secure its own platform, don't expect nannied non-tech
users to do it either.

Goblin

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:31:43 PM3/26/11
to
Snit, I don't know how much of this thread you followed, but for me it
stemmed from a Linux = command line source.

I already said I could care less if people used it or not, the
discussion moved into the realm of dumbing down of skills.

You say:

"Dependent on others? You mean like most people are on mechanics and
plumbers and carpenters?"

Completely different. Mechanics would be coders in the computing world
and everyone doesn't need to be a coder. In the case of cars, drivers
don't need to be able to take apart a car, but they do have an
understanding of how it works by way of learning to drive. The point
about dumbing down on the PC was the comment I made regarding "one click
fixes for one click fixes". You know if the oil light comes on in your
car you need oil. The same for gas. If you leave your headlights on
and the engine off, chances are your battery will go flat. As I said
before people blunder around computing with no clue WHY things work and
thats the problem.

We can argue this point all day long and you are right that there is a
need for specialist skilled people and they should rightfully be paid.

But you tell me, where's the skill in reinstalling Windows because its
been hosed? Wheres the skill in removing a bit of malware or installing
a few extra gig of memory? These are the "skills" that repair shops are
charging people for and exactly my point of how a little knowledge does
no harm.

I would also suggest that your average PC repair shop has a greatly
lower skill level than your local garage.....Unless someone really wants
to claim that fixing a hosed Windows system is difficult at all....of
course, lets pretend it is, its worth more money out of the customer.

Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:40:00 PM3/26/11
to
Goblin stated in post Xlwjp.146183$XM7.1...@newsfe18.ams2 on 3/26/11 6:19
PM:

...


>>> Remember the days of A500 dev? Dpaint, Devpac and 880k floppy. No fancy
>>> GUIs, no hand holding. Funny, it produced some rather talented people
>>> and certainly didn't harm the migration of computers into the home.
>>> Food for thought there.
>>
>> The GUI has allowed *far* more people to use computers.
>
> Hi Snit, I'll answer your points:
>
> "So do not learn what it does better until you have a need for it? Um,
> but then how do you know?"
>
> Because you have a task you want to complete which you find you cannot
> do via your desktop.

Such as?

> You ask on a forum and are directed to the command line. Thats one way I'd
> suggest. Or someone posing the question "Surely theres a quicker way of doing
> what Im doing?"

Sure, that could get you introduced to it.

...

> And that, is exactly the experience with Linux. I'm not saying everyone
> should or shouldn't use the command line, what I am saying is Linux =
> Command line is untrue, using it is really rather simple and its very
> easy to learn and there are many tasks which can be performed quicker
> with it.

Well, how do you install software not in a repository. They main suggestion
is with the command line.

> "Huh? I do not follow. A "generation" ago, only the techies used
> computers - there was no GUI."
>
> The point made was that I don't believe the dumbing down of computing
> got the computer into the home.

Dumbing down? People now do a lot more with the computers and do so more
quickly and easily.

> I believe it certainly sped the process up, but what I was saying (and maybe a
> era that you were not around) was that even the average user managed quite
> well on an A500 or similar which did not hold your hand every step of the way
> or are you suggesting that the entire Amiga community from yesteryear were
> tech experts?

The average person did not use computers back then.

> What I point out is that a little learning user side does no harm, and no
> matter how user friendly a system is, just like a car, if you have never used
> one before you can't just jump in and start driving like an expert from day
> one.
>
> "The GUI has allowed *far* more people to use computers."
>
> I'd completely agree and it goes back to my earlier point of how maybe hand
> holding and bringing these more people is not such a good thing, when (as I
> said) you have users that know how to do something but not why it works, then
> you have a generation of computer users dependent on others.

Dependent on others to do what?

> I'd suggest by
> the amount of users who blunder about in cyberspace with infected machines,
> thats not such a good thing. If Microsoft can't secure its own platform,
> don't expect nannied non-tech users to do it either.

Why do you think one needs to learn to use the command line to use malware
protection? I do not follow at all.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:46:56 PM3/26/11
to
Goblin stated in post Xwwjp.33129$Pz1....@newsfe21.ams2 on 3/26/11 6:31
PM:

Something I never said. Sure, seems Linux users need to use the command
line more than do OS X and Windows users, but it is not so bad these days.

> I already said I could care less if people used it or not, the
> discussion moved into the realm of dumbing down of skills.
>
> You say:
>
> "Dependent on others? You mean like most people are on mechanics and
> plumbers and carpenters?"
>
> Completely different. Mechanics would be coders in the computing world
> and everyone doesn't need to be a coder. In the case of cars, drivers
> don't need to be able to take apart a car, but they do have an
> understanding of how it works by way of learning to drive. The point
> about dumbing down on the PC was the comment I made regarding "one click
> fixes for one click fixes". You know if the oil light comes on in your
> car you need oil. The same for gas. If you leave your headlights on
> and the engine off, chances are your battery will go flat. As I said
> before people blunder around computing with no clue WHY things work and
> thats the problem.

What does that have to do with the command line?

> We can argue this point all day long and you are right that there is a
> need for specialist skilled people and they should rightfully be paid.

Correct.

> But you tell me, where's the skill in reinstalling Windows because its
> been hosed? Wheres the skill in removing a bit of malware or installing
> a few extra gig of memory? These are the "skills" that repair shops are
> charging people for and exactly my point of how a little knowledge does
> no harm.

It is not as though I am against people learning these things - heck, that
is one of the things my business focuses on; getting people to do more on
their own *if they want to*.



> I would also suggest that your average PC repair shop has a greatly
> lower skill level than your local garage.....Unless someone really wants
> to claim that fixing a hosed Windows system is difficult at all....of
> course, lets pretend it is, its worth more money out of the customer.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


owl

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:47:18 PM3/26/11
to
Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> owl stated in post niu3a...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 1:57 PM:

> ...
> >>>>>> Why on earth would PC users want to learn "command-line stuff"?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To make tedious things easy.
> >>>
> >>>> Such as? Give 2 or 3 things a non-techie user is likely to do where the
> >>>> command line would be the best way. Sure, there are times it might be
> >>>> faster, but worth learning a completely different way of doing things just
> >>>> to get these tasks done.
> >>>
> >>> Why does it have to be a non-techie user? But even so, a "techie" can
> >>> give a non-techie user a command-line solution to a problem that is very
> >>> tedious to accomplish with just the GUI.
> >
> >> And hence the non-techie would not have to learn the command line.
> >
> > Unless the user is a complete idiot, he could not have helped but learn
> > a little bit of the command line at that point just by running the solution
> > he was given.

> Nice copout. Do you have an answer?

I don't know. What's the question?

> ...
> >> Sure: but for most users they simply have no need for it nor desire to learn
> >> it. Do not get me wrong - I am happy OS X has a command line and one of my
> >> wishes for older Mac OS was for it to get a command line. I spoke of this
> >> *years* before OS X was around... but for most users the command line is
> >> something they should *never* have to learn to use well... and likely never
> >> even have to see.
> >
> > Why do you want to keep the power of the command line a secret from the
> > user?

> Who said I did? Really... that is just absurd. I also have no desire to
> keep the details of the modern car from drivers, but a driver should not be
> expected to be a mechanic.

Here's an opportunity to state your point clearly, so that no one
mistakes it. Or you can continue to ramble incoherently. It's your
choice.

Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 9:55:30 PM3/26/11
to
owl stated in post nv804q....@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 6:47 PM:

...

>> ...
>>>> Sure: but for most users they simply have no need for it nor desire to
>>>> learn
>>>> it. Do not get me wrong - I am happy OS X has a command line and one of my
>>>> wishes for older Mac OS was for it to get a command line. I spoke of this
>>>> *years* before OS X was around... but for most users the command line is
>>>> something they should *never* have to learn to use well... and likely never
>>>> even have to see.
>>>
>>> Why do you want to keep the power of the command line a secret from the
>>> user?
>
>> Who said I did? Really... that is just absurd. I also have no desire to
>> keep the details of the modern car from drivers, but a driver should not be
>> expected to be a mechanic.
>
> Here's an opportunity to state your point clearly, so that no one
> mistakes it. Or you can continue to ramble incoherently. It's your
> choice.

You are just lost. My point is simple: the general user should not have to
use the command line, other - perhaps - than in very rare cases, which I
talked about elsewhere.

Not sure why this confuses you so. Nor why you dodge so much. I mean,
really, keeping the command line secret? Where the heck did you get that?

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


owl

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 10:33:40 PM3/26/11
to
Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> owl stated in post nv804q....@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 6:47 PM:

> ...
> >> ...
> >>>> Sure: but for most users they simply have no need for it nor desire to
> >>>> learn
> >>>> it. Do not get me wrong - I am happy OS X has a command line and one of my
> >>>> wishes for older Mac OS was for it to get a command line. I spoke of this
> >>>> *years* before OS X was around... but for most users the command line is
> >>>> something they should *never* have to learn to use well... and likely never
> >>>> even have to see.
> >>>
> >>> Why do you want to keep the power of the command line a secret from the
> >>> user?
> >
> >> Who said I did? Really... that is just absurd. I also have no desire to
> >> keep the details of the modern car from drivers, but a driver should not be
> >> expected to be a mechanic.
> >
> > Here's an opportunity to state your point clearly, so that no one
> > mistakes it. Or you can continue to ramble incoherently. It's your
> > choice.

> You are just lost. My point is simple: the general user should not have to
> use the command line, other - perhaps - than in very rare cases, which I
> talked about elsewhere.

So now it's "in very rare cases" instead of the emphatic "never" that you
stated above? Are you going to settle on that, or do you plan to change
your mind again?

> Not sure why this confuses you so.

It's confusing because you won't stay on point, whatever it is.

> Nor why you dodge so much. I mean,
> really, keeping the command line secret? Where the heck did you get that?

You seem to want to shield the user from the command line. That's
equivalent to hiding it, or keeping it secret.

Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 10:40:23 PM3/26/11
to
owl stated in post nio0ae...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 7:33 PM:

...

>>>>> Why do you want to keep the power of the command line a secret from the
>>>>> user?
>>>
>>>> Who said I did? Really... that is just absurd. I also have no desire to
>>>> keep the details of the modern car from drivers, but a driver should not be
>>>> expected to be a mechanic.
>>>
>>> Here's an opportunity to state your point clearly, so that no one
>>> mistakes it. Or you can continue to ramble incoherently. It's your
>>> choice.
>
>> You are just lost. My point is simple: the general user should not have to
>> use the command line, other - perhaps - than in very rare cases, which I
>> talked about elsewhere.
>
> So now it's "in very rare cases" instead of the emphatic "never" that you
> stated above? Are you going to settle on that, or do you plan to change
> your mind again?

Learn to read. Really.

>> Not sure why this confuses you so.
>
> It's confusing because you won't stay on point, whatever it is.

The point is simple. Really. You are just lost and illiterate.

>> Nor why you dodge so much. I mean,
>> really, keeping the command line secret? Where the heck did you get that?
>
> You seem to want to shield the user from the command line. That's
> equivalent to hiding it, or keeping it secret.

You are just lost. Seriously: learn to read. Knock the chip off your
shoulder and try - just try - to stop making a fool of yourself.

You just babble about off topic gibberish because you don't know what is
going on.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


owl

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 10:46:18 PM3/26/11
to
Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> owl stated in post nio0ae...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 7:33 PM:

> >

> > So now it's "in very rare cases" instead of the emphatic "never" that you
> > stated above? Are you going to settle on that, or do you plan to change
> > your mind again?

> Learn to read. Really.

> >> Not sure why this confuses you so.
> >
> > It's confusing because you won't stay on point, whatever it is.

> The point is simple. Really. You are just lost and illiterate.

> >> Nor why you dodge so much. I mean,
> >> really, keeping the command line secret? Where the heck did you get that?
> >
> > You seem to want to shield the user from the command line. That's
> > equivalent to hiding it, or keeping it secret.

> You are just lost. Seriously: learn to read. Knock the chip off your
> shoulder and try - just try - to stop making a fool of yourself.

> You just babble about off topic gibberish because you don't know what is
> going on.

Turn off the bot and try to have a conversation like an adult.

Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 10:52:29 PM3/26/11
to
owl stated in post nu5uas...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 7:46 PM:

My point exactly. You just spew comments no more coherent than a bot would
spew. You babble about keeping things secret as if one has to push
irrelevant arcane commands onto users in order to not be "hiding" them from
them. Eliza could respond better than you. I mean, really, do you have any
idea what you are even arguing against? You show no more understanding than
Eliza.

Can you at least *try* to do better?


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


RonB

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 10:54:01 PM3/26/11
to
On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 01:47:18 +0000, owl wrote:

> Here's an opportunity to state your point clearly, so that no one
> mistakes it. Or you can continue to ramble incoherently. It's your
> choice.

The concept of file folders is "challenging" to Snit. Consider the source.

--
RonB
Registered Linux User #498581
CentOS 5.5 or VectorLinux Deluxe 6.0
& Linux Mint 10 (for now)

owl

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:04:52 PM3/26/11
to
Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> owl stated in post nu5uas...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 7:46 PM:

> >

> > Turn off the bot and try to have a conversation like an adult.
> >
> My point exactly.

OMG another point.

> You just spew comments no more coherent than a bot would
> spew. You babble about keeping things secret as if one has to push
> irrelevant arcane commands onto users in order to not be "hiding" them from
> them. Eliza could respond better than you. I mean, really, do you have any
> idea what you are even arguing against? You show no more understanding than
> Eliza.

<glances at watch>

> Can you at least *try* to do better?

Are you really worthy of more effort?

Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:12:27 PM3/26/11
to
owl stated in post nf89a4...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 8:04 PM:

I think you should focus on yourself. Try to see *yourself* as being worth
the effort.

My view: users should not be pushed to use the command line. The GUI should
be good enough to handle the needs of non-techie users.

Just blew your mind. You babbled off topic about secrets and bots. Then
you pretend 7 is literate... which is simply absurd.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


owl

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:27:54 PM3/26/11
to
Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> owl stated in post nf89a4...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 8:04 PM:

> > Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> >> owl stated in post nu5uas...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 7:46 PM:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Turn off the bot and try to have a conversation like an adult.
> >>>
> >> My point exactly.
> >
> > OMG another point.
> >
> >> You just spew comments no more coherent than a bot would
> >> spew. You babble about keeping things secret as if one has to push
> >> irrelevant arcane commands onto users in order to not be "hiding" them from
> >> them. Eliza could respond better than you. I mean, really, do you have any
> >> idea what you are even arguing against? You show no more understanding than
> >> Eliza.
> >
> > <glances at watch>
> >
> >> Can you at least *try* to do better?
> >
> > Are you really worthy of more effort?

> I think you should focus on yourself. Try to see *yourself* as being worth
> the effort.

I've never really tried talking to myself. Do you find it beneficial?

> My view: users should not be pushed to use the command line. The GUI should
> be good enough to handle the needs of non-techie users.

I find it easier to communicate with both people and my computer by
using language. Pointing and grunting only go so far.

> Just blew your mind. You babbled off topic about secrets and bots. Then
> you pretend 7 is literate... which is simply absurd.

7 is an artist. It's sad that you can't appreciate that.

flatfish+++

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:31:20 PM3/26/11
to
On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 03:27:54 +0000 (UTC), owl wrote:

> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> owl stated in post nf89a4...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 8:04 PM:

>> Just blew your mind. You babbled off topic about secrets and bots. Then


>> you pretend 7 is literate... which is simply absurd.
>
> 7 is an artist. It's sad that you can't appreciate that.

7 is fraud who is trying to deceive people out of their money.
Stop making excuses for him just because he is a Linux user.

flatfish+++

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:31:50 PM3/26/11
to
On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 03:27:54 +0000 (UTC), owl wrote:

> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

>> Just blew your mind. You babbled off topic about secrets and bots. Then
>> you pretend 7 is literate... which is simply absurd.
>
> 7 is an artist. It's sad that you can't appreciate that.

Yea.
A *CON ARTIST*

Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:33:15 PM3/26/11
to
flatfish+++ stated in post 13b9cadbeadwt....@40tude.net on
3/26/11 8:31 PM:

Illiteracy as an art form. Amazing.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:34:25 PM3/26/11
to
owl stated in post n88faer...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 8:27 PM:

My view: users should not be pushed toward the command line.

Why this baffles and upsets you so much is anyone's guess... but it might
have something to do with your illiteracy, as shown by your babbling about
people hiding things from users.

And you think 7 has brought illiteracy to an art form.

Lovely.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:36:02 PM3/26/11
to
flatfish+++ stated in post f2iiavgv6rrz$.bqnok3yyqj15$.d...@40tude.net on
3/26/11 8:31 PM:

> On Sun, 27 Mar 2011 03:27:54 +0000 (UTC), owl wrote:

Owl thinks 7 has elevated illiteracy to an art form. I am not sure how to
respond to that.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


DFS

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:46:30 PM3/26/11
to
On 3/26/2011 7:45 AM, 7 wrote:

> Most of the world is switching to Linux and Open Office.
> So get over it OK?!

Except every company you've ever worked for - including your current
employer.

Can't fool us, little fraud. Don't fool yourself.


owl

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:47:46 PM3/26/11
to
Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> owl stated in post n88faer...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 8:27 PM:

> >

> > 7 is an artist. It's sad that you can't appreciate that.
> >
> My view: users should not be pushed toward the command line.

> Why this baffles and upsets you so much is anyone's guess... but it might
> have something to do with your illiteracy, as shown by your babbling about
> people hiding things from users.

> And you think 7 has brought illiteracy to an art form.

> Lovely.

Nobody cares about "your view". That baffles and upsets you because
you have Assburgers.

owl

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:48:46 PM3/26/11
to

> > Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:

> Yea.
> A *CON ARTIST*

Now see, *you* have a sense of humor. Snit is just a Rainman.

owl

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:49:48 PM3/26/11
to

Do they make you wear a helmet?

Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:54:08 PM3/26/11
to
owl stated in post nf89a...@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 8:47 PM:

How angry you get when I do not follow you off topic. How sad, really.

My view: users should not be pushed toward the command line.

Why this baffles and upsets you so much is anyone's guess... but it might
have something to do with your illiteracy, as shown by your babbling about

people hiding things from users and trying to change the topic to my mouse
(what the???). Seriously, get a clue.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Mar 26, 2011, 11:54:27 PM3/26/11
to
owl stated in post n900a....@rooftop.invalid on 3/26/11 8:49 PM:

Goblin

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 2:57:57 AM3/27/11
to

And how pray tell is 7 trying to get money out of anyone?

Can't say Ive ever seen one of his/her schemes. Maybe Flatfish you can
enlighten us with your latest claim or is this another example of "I
offer no proof" type responses?

Chris

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 5:24:46 AM3/27/11
to
Am Sat, 26 Mar 2011 20:34:25 -0700 schrieb Snit:

> My view: users should not be pushed toward the command line.
>
> Why this baffles and upsets you so much is anyone's guess... but it
> might have something to do with your illiteracy, as shown by your
> babbling about people hiding things from users.

It might have something to do with that you repeat it as a dogma. You
don't give any reason except for "it's not user friendly" for which you
don't give a proper reason too. Yea, right, it's "too complicated".
Really?

Can you please make a valid argument so that I can read an interesting
discussion?

Thanks.

flatfish+++

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 5:44:24 AM3/27/11
to
On 27 Mar 2011 09:24:46 GMT, Chris wrote:


> Can you please make a valid argument so that I can read an interesting
> discussion?
>
> Thanks.

Your last nym was better......

Chris

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 5:52:02 AM3/27/11
to
Am Sun, 27 Mar 2011 05:44:24 -0400 schrieb flatfish+++:

> Your last nym was better......

Fourth time you claim you "know" another name from me.

Fourth time I ask you to prove it.

flatfish+++

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 6:12:33 AM3/27/11
to

Why?
You'll just deny it.

I'll leave you with this:

Your"Chris" nym just appeared yet you seem to know an awful lot about
COLA.

Enuff said....

Goblin

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 6:12:57 AM3/27/11
to

Even though I rarely post here, its easy to see there is a simple rule
when the likes of Flatfish, DFS are trying to disrupt -

Post a claim and then all but admit you will never provide any evidence.

and if all else fails and you are backed into a corner, just claim "rope
a dope"....or claim its all part of some private joke which coincidently
only the disrupters seem to know.

Its all as transparent as one of Steve Ballmers shirts after a stage
performance.

Chris

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 6:19:38 AM3/27/11
to
Am Sun, 27 Mar 2011 06:12:33 -0400 schrieb flatfish+++:

> Enuff said....

Is repeating claims you can't prove a hobby of yours?

flatfish+++

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 6:30:55 AM3/27/11
to

No.
That would be Rex Ballard.
High Plains Thumper.
Peter Kohlmann.
And others.

Proving you know far too much about COLA to be a "gnu" person is simple.
Just read your posts.

Chris

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 6:47:29 AM3/27/11
to
Am Sun, 27 Mar 2011 06:30:55 -0400 schrieb flatfish+++:

> Proving you know far too much about COLA to be a "gnu" person is simple.
> Just read your posts.

You claimed it, you have the burden of proof and I ask you to provide
proof.

By the way: It is possible to read newsgroups without posting in them.

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 8:39:15 AM3/27/11
to
Chris wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

The command-line exists for the same reason stuff like Perl exists... it is
simply easier, for a wide range of situations, to represent repetitive tasks
and complex notation by typing code than by drawing pictures and filling in
dialog boxes.

--
My mother wants grandchildren, so I said, "Mom, go for it!"
-- Sue Murphy

Ezekiel

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 9:41:09 AM3/27/11
to

"owl" <o...@rooftop.invalid> wrote in message
news:n88faer...@rooftop.invalid...

> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>
>> Just blew your mind. You babbled off topic about secrets and bots. Then
>> you pretend 7 is literate... which is simply absurd.
>
> 7 is an artist. It's sad that you can't appreciate that.
>

"Artist" - I've never seen "moronic lying idiot" spelled that way before.

High Plains Thumper

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 10:52:39 AM3/27/11
to
Goblin wrote:

> Chris wrote:
>> schrieb flatfish+++:
>>
>>> Your last nym was better......
>>
>> Fourth time you claim you "know" another name from me. Fourth time I
>> ask you to prove it.
>
> Even though I rarely post here, its easy to see there is a simple rule
> when the likes of Flatfish, DFS are trying to disrupt -
>
> Post a claim and then all but admit you will never provide any evidence.

This is all a part of "7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics" as revealed
in the c.o.l.advocacy FAQ mentioned in:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/

that the trolls keep denying as the proper FAQ.

The above you mention is an example of:

[quote]
17. Don't substantiate your claims
Refuse to present evidence to support your invalid claims. Repeat
your invalid claims and have your anti-Linux propagandist comrades
do the same. Do the same for any invalid claims that you have
notice your anti-Linux propagandists comrades make.
[/quote]

> and if all else fails and you are backed into a corner, just claim "rope
> a dope"....

[quote]
48. Don't let your ignorance stop you from posting
No matter how little you understand of the issues being discussed
in a thread, post anyway. If you don't know what you are talking
about just pretend that you do.
[/quote]

> or claim its all part of some private joke which coincidently only the
> disrupters seem to know.

[quote]
44. Use being an idiot as an excuse
When you are criticized for using disinformation tactics, claim
ignorance of the disinformation tactics and use your apparent
idiocy as an excuse for your actions. Do the same for your
comrades, when a Linux Advocate corners one of your fellow
anti-Linux propagandists tell that advocate something like "What
are you doing? It's only John Doe for goodness sake!"
[/quote]

> Its all as transparent as one of Steve Ballmers shirts after a stage
> performance.

[quote]
31. If it makes Microsoft or Windows look bad call it a rumor
Claim that anything that tends to make Microsoft or Windows look
bad is an unfounded rumor and that you opponent is being unfair.
If the information is obscure enough claim that it is an urban
legend, hoping that no one knows that many legends are based on
fact.

32. Promote Windows at every opportunity
Microsoft Windows needs a lot of help to be successful in the mind
share of its targeted user base. Point out to everybody on COLA how
wonderful it is. Ignore the meaning of the name of the newsgroup
and its charter.
[/quote]

--
HPT

High Plains Thumper

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 10:57:48 AM3/27/11
to
Chris wrote:
> schrieb flatfish+++:
>
>> Proving you know far too much about COLA to be a "gnu" person is
>> simple. Just read your posts.
>
> You claimed it, you have the burden of proof and I ask you to provide
> proof.

The official FAQ at:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/

expresses what this troll is doing:

[quote]
7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics

17. Don't substantiate your claims
Refuse to present evidence to support your invalid claims. Repeat
your invalid claims and have your anti-Linux propagandist comrades
do the same. Do the same for any invalid claims that you have
notice your anti-Linux propagandists comrades make.
[/quote]

> By the way: It is possible to read newsgroups without posting in them.

--
HPT

Goblin

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 10:52:58 AM3/27/11
to

Hi!

That text should be sold, if some of the disruptors followed its rules
better, they may get a little further than they do.

It does make me think though, if I was being paid to cheapen an
alternative viewpoint to Microsoft I could do so much of a better job.
Time and time again the "anti brigade" fall into the same traps, not
ones made by me or anyone else but their own poorly thought out "attacks"

This is why I find it hard to believe they are paid to do it at all. I
refuse to believe that someone would see value in their tot.
Disturbingly though that leaves the motives for posting as a "perverse
gratification" in most cases that I mentioned in a previous post.

Snit

unread,
Mar 27, 2011, 12:58:06 PM3/27/11
to
Chris Ahlstrom stated in post imnb5m$k2m$4...@dont-email.me on 3/27/11 5:39 AM:

For the common user, though, when? When is this needed? I am not saying it
is never - but it is so rare as to not be worth learning a whole other
language.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


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