The fallacy of "Works For me".
Juan
confronted by a so called Linux advocate who will claim "works for
me".
Often this is nothing more than a lie that gets backed up and in a
twisted manner confirmed by the other so called Linux advocates who
claim it works for them as well.
So how do these same so called Linux advocates deal with people in
videos who acknowledge Linux's problems and better yet offer
solutions?
The so called Linux advocates scatter like cockroaches and start
attacking the posters.
So tell me, other than the "word of a Linux zealot" which is worth
about zero because they lie, what other evidence do these people
have to substantiate their claims?
Here is a video that exposes these liars for what they really are.
Zealots who will never admit the truth because sometimes it portrays
Linux in a less than perfect manner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s
View it and weep because these are the real Linux advocates.
The people who acknowledge the problems, avoid blaming others for
Linux's failures and indeed offer substantive solutions to said
problems.
I don't expect COLA minions to agree because their methods of Linux
advocacy are based mostly on paranoia, playing the blame game,
denial, Mafia like tactics and avoiding any topic negative toward
Linux.
Works for me.
Yea, right.
bbgruff
> Time and time again
Time and time again, we get "new" posters here who seem so similar in style
and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
Hadron
You replied so he didnt't fail. Oops! BBgruff fails again!
Possibly you should query "Lawrence" too? Hint : it's all in the Grammar
and, until recently, the headers.
High Plains Thumper
> Juan wrote:
>
>> Time and time again
>
> Time and time again, we get "new" posters here who seem so similar in
> style and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
Yup, last night I added it to the bozo-bin.
--
HPT
Chris Ahlstrom
Yep. Over and over again, like a severely autistic child.
--
FORTUNE DISCUSSES THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN: #16
Relationships:
First of all, a man does not call a relationship a relationship -- he
refers to it as "that time when me and Suzie were doing it on a semi-regular
basis".
When a relationship ends, a woman will cry and pour her heart out to
her girlfriends, and she will write a poem titled "All Men Are Idiots". Then
she will get on with her life.
A man has a little more trouble letting go. Six months after the
breakup, at 3:00 a.m. on a Saturday night, he will call and say, "I just
wanted to let you know you ruined my life, and I'll never forgive you, and I
hate you, and you're a total floozy. But I want you to know that there's
always a chance for us". This is known as the "I Hate You / I Love You"
drunken phone call, that 99% if all men have made at least once. There are
community colleges that offer courses to help men get over this need; alas,
these classes rarely prove effective.
Juan
> bbgruff pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> On Saturday 01 January 2011 01:12 Juan wrote:
>>
>>> Time and time again
>>
>> Time and time again, we get "new" posters here who seem so similar in style
>> and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
>
> Yep. Over and over again, like a severely autistic child.
Yet you are still so afraid that you run away and start new threads
about it.
Grow up Chris Ahlstrom or get the mental health counseling you seem
to need.
Juan
> bbgruff <bbg...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On Saturday 01 January 2011 01:12 Juan wrote:
>>
>>> Time and time again
>>
>> Time and time again, we get "new" posters here who seem so similar in style
>> and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
>
> You replied so he didnt't fail. Oops! BBgruff fails again!
bbgruff has been a real idiot since he first tried to learn Suse and
made an ass of himself in the suse groups.
> Possibly you should query "Lawrence" too? Hint : it's all in the Grammar
> and, until recently, the headers.
Hahahah!
Yep... I figured that one out a while ago.
They won't mention it though because "Lawrence", much like G******
***** feeds them everything they want to hear.
It's just so easy to rope a dope these morons.
Juan
Wow!
I feel honored!
Snit
6:12 PM:
List of problems:
* multimonitor support
* updates killing nvidia drivers... lengthy process to fix every time
* driver model flawed
* slides were lousy to work with
* audio problems
* wi-fi issues
* updates that break core functionality
* lack of software for tasks
Different frameworks... fragmentation. Duplicated effort. Duplicate APIs.
x.org... thinks like compbiz need to hack it to work. Needs to be
re-written... this is being done. Needs more testing... updates kill old
fixes too often.
Hypocrisy of demonizing Apple and MS for what is common on Linux.
Huge number of forks (ex. of Skype). Wasted effort - lots of package
maintenance that should not have to happen.
Lacks of specific types of applications:
audio editing: No good work flows for prof or even good hobbyist.
nothing even like Garage Band. None on Linux cut it. Not even close.
video editing: some good commercial stuff, but nothing free.
need to build from source. GIMP needs to do a lot more to
be on par with Photoshop. Need to make it easy for Adobe to
port Photoshop! Right now it is not.
These things are not that much of a niche... look at GarageBand and
MovieMaker
Leads to less functionality than a mid-90s Mac or PC.
Need developers. Need to pay them. "Developers need to eat" Even for good
developers they are often getting about 24K / year. That sucks. People
need to pay. Need to be willing to pay for Adobe and MS software, etc.
These companies care about *money*... if Linux products would sell they
would make them.
Need Photoshop. Design folks *need* it to get the work done. Same with
AutoCAD. It is not the standard and it does not have the functionality.
Also problem with games.
WINE: even if it works... it might not in the future. To use WINE is a
risk. [Also makes troubleshooting more complex.]
Adding more developers does not make things better... it makes it worse.
"Many eyes" helps with some bugs and security problems... but not good for
core features.
Oh, and the slides can be found here: <http://lunduke.com/?p=429>
On a side note: the slides are done quite poorly. What is sad is if you
just export the file as a PPT and then open it with either PowerPoint or
Pages, things line up better and the background image looks better. This is
a file presumably made with OO, and it looks better in the competition.
This does not speak well for OO!
On a second side note: he mentions getting software from apt-get or aptitude
without any warnings or whatever.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Juan
Notice the deafening silence in COLA?
The freetards here in COLA aren't interested in actually fixing
Linux.
Hell they won't even admit the problems Linux has, and there are
many problems.
For these bozos Linux "works for me" and they all giggle and hold
hands like little school girls.
It's truly pathetic.
Meanwhile the people in the video get chastised for letting the
penguin out of the bag.
Linux is looking more like cult everyday.
amicus_curious
"bbgruff" <bbg...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8o8vae...@mid.individual.net...
Well, go ahead and shoot the messenger, bb, particularly if he deserves it,
but what about the message? I actually listened to the whole 44 minutes and
it was interesting to see Linux discussed rationally. Or at least
rationally in terms of practical matters pertaining to its future on the
desktop. Do you have any answer to the points that were raised in the
video? I am sure that "flatfish" or "Juan" was not featured in the video,
so they or he cannot be blamed for its content.
Juan
The COLA gang has behaved exactly as predicted.
They have no interest in fixing Linux because they prefer to
continue to propagate the myth that "Linux just works".
The truth is, Linux does not "just work".
Linux has a lot of problems, many of which are still with us even
after many years.
No, you won't see the COLA advocates watching a video that describes
Linux's problems and also offers solutions.
It's far to painful for them to watch.
They prefer to hide behind their kill files.
Sad.
Very sad.
bbgruff
>
>
> "bbgruff" <bbg...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8o8vae...@mid.individual.net...
>> On Saturday 01 January 2011 01:12 Juan wrote:
>>
>>> Time and time again
>>
>> Time and time again, we get "new" posters here who seem so similar in
>> style
>> and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
>>
> Well, go ahead and shoot the messenger, bb, particularly if he deserves
it,
I don't know about "shooting" him - in all fairness, he probably should be
pitied.
The poor soul seems to have made this group a large part of his life, and
trolling it his vocation.....
> but what about the message? I actually listened to the whole 44 minutes
Forgive me digressing for a moment, but that made me smile. You seem to be
implying that I should have watched it myself. This in *spite* of the fact
that:-
- I am using a Linux computer, and according to your own predictions of 2004
Linux would (with the rest of FOSS) have ceased to exist 18 moths or more
ago...
- I use Firefox, which according to you (6.5 years ago) nobody would bother
to download since Internet Explorer was used by over 96% of people.
- To see the video, I would need to view it in Firefox/Linux. Isn't that
impossible?
- I have dual monitors, and according to flatfish, these don't work with
Ubuntu.
- We all know that sound doesn't work in Linux, so I presumably can't hear
it?
- Even viewing the page as text would be very problematic, because as
flatfish has told us so often, the Linux fonts are so bad as to be
unreadable!
You see my problems? :-)
However, yes, I have now watched/listened it through.
> and
> it was interesting to see Linux discussed rationally. Or at least
> rationally in terms of practical matters pertaining to its future on the
> desktop.
I absolutely agree with you!
How different from the home life of our own dear cola!
> Do you have any answer to the points that were raised in the
> video?
I'm afraid not, but there again, I'm just an idiot - ask hadron :-)
A couple of things did strike me though -
First, and very early on, it was made clear that the Desktop is what was
being talked about. Embedded, mobile, server(?), etc. were specifically
excluded, and declared "rock-solid". The discussion therefore related to
about 1% of Linux instances - The Desktop.
Secondly, I hadn't expected to watch it through - 45 minutes is a long time.
However, I was very pleasantly surprised to see/hear the points raised being
discussed in such a friendly and co-operative manner. I don't think that I
SHOULD have been surprised - this is exactly the sort of atmosphere in which
(in my limited experience) the folks who actually know what they are doing
meet and get (FOSS) things done.
Rather different from the flatfish/hadron/OSOK/etc. way of doing things,
isn't it?
> I am sure that "flatfish" or "Juan" was not featured in the video,
> so they or he cannot be blamed for its content.
I am sure that you are right.
I don't think that you take that statement far enough, though.
To me, there was no "blame" on anybody for the content - that was a very
rational presentation, very constructively put, and very constructively
received.
You say that flatfish can't be *blamed* for the content.
I would suggest that he can't be *credited* with the content!
Ron House
> bbgruff<bbg...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On Saturday 01 January 2011 01:12 Juan wrote:
>>
>>> Time and time again
>>
>> Time and time again, we get "new" posters here who seem so similar in style
>> and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
>
> You replied so he didnt't fail. Oops! BBgruff fails again!
You just claimed his reply to the new poster somehow disproved his claim
that flatfish was a failed troll. That logic only holds good if the
"new" poster is the same person as flatfish. You just admitted they are
the same person.
--
Ron House
Building Peace: http://peacelegacy.org
Australian Birds: http://wingedhearts.org
Principle of Goodness academic site: http://principleofgoodness.net
Snit
12:58 PM:
The lack of response does say a lot.
> The freetards here in COLA aren't interested in actually fixing
> Linux.
>
> Hell they won't even admit the problems Linux has, and there are
> many problems.
>
> For these bozos Linux "works for me" and they all giggle and hold
> hands like little school girls.
>
> It's truly pathetic.
>
> Meanwhile the people in the video get chastised for letting the
> penguin out of the bag.
>
> Linux is looking more like cult everyday.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
TomB
>>>> Zealots who will never admit the truth because sometimes it portrays
>>>> Linux in a less than perfect manner.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s
>>
>
> The lack of response does say a lot.
This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you
guys want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
that - according to him - sucks.
All I can say is that:
- I don't have issues with dual monitor set-ups
- I don't have issues with audio
- I don't have issues with wireless (and driver issues are far less
common than they used to be)
- Kernel modules are handled just fine with DKMS
- You *don't* have to compile video software yourself (honestly, what
was /that/ all about?)
- If you want to use commercial software, go Windows or OSX
- You cannot 'manage' the GNU/Linux ecosystem, no matter how much you
talk about it
--
The American Dream: Yes, we can!
The Belgian Dream: Yes, week-end!
Snit
> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>> Juan stated in post 14hrjfojydkj9$.3gy0c4knqh1u$.d...@40tude.net on 1/1/11
>> 12:58 PM:
>>
>>>>> Here is a video that exposes these liars for what they really are.
>>>>> Zealots who will never admit the truth because sometimes it portrays
>>>>> Linux in a less than perfect manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s
>>>
>>> Notice the deafening silence in COLA?
>>
>> The lack of response does say a lot.
>
> This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you
> guys want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
First time I have seen it.
> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
> that - according to him - sucks.
Well, he makes it clear that he just means in certain areas. Right at the
start he notes:
-----
��We all like Linux.
��Linux is great.
- It's fast.
- It's customizable.
- It's stable.
- It's open.
- It's, generally, pretty bad-ass.
------
> All I can say is that:
> - I don't have issues with dual monitor set-ups
> - I don't have issues with audio
> - I don't have issues with wireless (and driver issues are far less
> common than they used to be)
> - Kernel modules are handled just fine with DKMS
> - You *don't* have to compile video software yourself (honestly, what
> was /that/ all about?)
He never said you have to... but that it makes sense to do so for best
functionality. But most people still will not.
> - If you want to use commercial software, go Windows or OSX
The point is if you want better functionality, at least in the areas noted,
you need to use Windows or OS X. This is a weakness of desktop Linux.
> - You cannot 'manage' the GNU/Linux ecosystem, no matter how much you
> talk about it
No, but it can be improved - and he talks about some of the ways to do so.
And many of them mirror what I (and other in COLA) have been saying for
quite some time.
Why is it you think so many different people from different backgrounds come
to very similar conclusions?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Juan
> This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you
> guys want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
Why not.
You freetards keep whining about the same things over and over
again.
You've been doing it for years in fact.
> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
> that - according to him - sucks.
Can't debate the points again.
> All I can say is that:
> - I don't have issues with dual monitor set-ups
> - I don't have issues with audio
> - I don't have issues with wireless (and driver issues are far less
> common than they used to be)
> - Kernel modules are handled just fine with DKMS
> - You *don't* have to compile video software yourself (honestly, what
> was /that/ all about?)
Of course you don't.
No freetard will ever admit these problems are real.
Listen to the people in the video talk about them.
> - If you want to use commercial software, go Windows or OSX
> - You cannot 'manage' the GNU/Linux ecosystem, no matter how much you
> talk about it
Who is talking about managing the GNU/Linux ecosystem?
We are laughing at it.
Maybe if you freetards could manage it, you might have a decent
market share for your free product.
But you hide behind the "it's on my desktop so I don't care about
anyone else" mantra when that question is presented.
Snit
> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
Had another couple of thoughts:
1) While you and most "advocates" deny having such problems, if you listen
to the crowd, at least many people there knew exactly what he was talking
about. Why do you think there is this discrepancy? Why do COLA "advocates",
in general, have fewer problems with desktop Linux than others - even others
who are very knowledgeable? I am not saying you or any other specific
person is lying when you deny such problems, but taken as a whole it just
seems unlikely.
2) What about the OO presentation - that looks better when converted to
PowerPoint and opened there or in Keynote. I am repeatedly told that OO is
as good for at least basic things as is MS Office, but here is an example
where even a very basic slideshow almost surely made with OO looks
unprofessional and poor in OO and better in the alternatives. And OO is a
major product with massive backing through the years. Such things are - or
should be - rather embarrassing for the developers and those who speak so
highly about OO.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Marti Van Lin
I'm sorry to say, but it's crystal clear to me that this video is
nothing but Microsoft Anti-Linux propaganda.
#fail
--
|_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin, alias ML2MST
|_|_|0| Registered GNU/Linux user 513040
|0|0|0| http://www.soundclick.com/martivanlin
Snit
PM:
Yeah, all those LinuxFest folks are just FUD spreader jerks!
LOL!
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
b) Nothing.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> x.org... thinks like compbiz need to hack it to work.
Other platforms wish they had something like Compiz. The fact is,
proprietary GUIs have nowhere near that kind of flexibility.
RonB
> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>> Juan stated in post 14hrjfojydkj9$.3gy0c4knqh1u$.d...@40tude.net on
>> 1/1/11 12:58 PM:
>>
>>>>> Here is a video that exposes these liars for what they really are.
>>>>> Zealots who will never admit the truth because sometimes it portrays
>>>>> Linux in a less than perfect manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s
>>>
>>> Notice the deafening silence in COLA?
>>
>> The lack of response does say a lot.
It says that those on COLA are tired repeating the same refutations to the
same old, regurgitated FUD. Get a new shtick.
> This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you guys
> want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
>
> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
> that - according to him - sucks.
>
> All I can say is that:
> - I don't have issues with dual monitor set-ups - I don't have issues
> with audio
> - I don't have issues with wireless (and driver issues are far less
> common than they used to be)
> - Kernel modules are handled just fine with DKMS - You *don't* have to
> compile video software yourself (honestly, what
> was /that/ all about?)
> - If you want to use commercial software, go Windows or OSX - You cannot
> 'manage' the GNU/Linux ecosystem, no matter how much you
> talk about it
--
RonB
Registered Linux User #498581
CentOS 5.5 or VectorLinux Deluxe 6.0
RonB
> I'm sorry to say, but it's crystal clear to me that this video is
> nothing but Microsoft Anti-Linux propaganda.
And, surprise, surprise, Snit is shilling it. Who would have ever guessed?
Snit
PM:
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 02:36:18 +0100, TomB wrote:
>
>> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>> Juan stated in post 14hrjfojydkj9$.3gy0c4knqh1u$.d...@40tude.net on
>>> 1/1/11 12:58 PM:
>>>
>>>>>> Here is a video that exposes these liars for what they really are.
>>>>>> Zealots who will never admit the truth because sometimes it portrays
>>>>>> Linux in a less than perfect manner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s
>>>>
>>>> Notice the deafening silence in COLA?
>>>
>>> The lack of response does say a lot.
>
> It says that those on COLA are tired repeating the same refutations to the
> same old, regurgitated FUD. Get a new shtick.
The fact is you have no answer to the things they bring up... other than to
just insist that somehow, but you cannot say how, Linux "advocates" never
run into these things.
By the way, here is a more recent video:
<http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
I suspect no "advocates" will be willing to talk about the problems
discussed there nor will talk about why the OO presentation looks better
when exported and opened with PowerPoint or Keynote.
>> This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you guys
>> want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
>>
>> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
>> that - according to him - sucks.
>>
>> All I can say is that:
>> - I don't have issues with dual monitor set-ups - I don't have issues
>> with audio
>> - I don't have issues with wireless (and driver issues are far less
>> common than they used to be)
>> - Kernel modules are handled just fine with DKMS - You *don't* have to
>> compile video software yourself (honestly, what
>> was /that/ all about?)
>> - If you want to use commercial software, go Windows or OSX - You cannot
>> 'manage' the GNU/Linux ecosystem, no matter how much you
>> talk about it
>
>
>
>
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
PM:
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 06:44:01 +0100, Marti Van Lin wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry to say, but it's crystal clear to me that this video is
>> nothing but Microsoft Anti-Linux propaganda.
>
> And, surprise, surprise, Snit is shilling it. Who would have ever guessed?
The fact is you have no answer to the things they bring up... other than to
just insist that somehow, but you cannot say how, Linux "advocates" never
run into these things. And to shoot the messenger... as you do above.
By the way, here is a more recent video:
<http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
I suspect no "advocates" will be willing to talk about the problems
discussed there nor will talk about why the OO presentation looks better
when exported and opened with PowerPoint or Keynote.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
11:03 PM:
> In message <C944D40C.88923%use...@gallopinginsanity.com>, Snit wrote:
>
>> x.org... thinks like compbiz need to hack it to work.
>
> Other platforms wish they had something like Compiz.
And your evidence for this is...???
Oh.
> The fact is, proprietary GUIs have nowhere near that kind of flexibility.
OS X focuses more on usability than flexibility. Sometimes to a fault. But
they are *not* the same thing.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro stated in post ifp4fl$973$4...@lust.ihug.co.nz on 1/1/11
> 11:03 PM:
>
>> In message <C944D40C.88923%use...@gallopinginsanity.com>, Snit wrote:
>>
>>> x.org... thinks like compbiz need to hack it to work.
>>
>> Other platforms wish they had something like Compiz.
>
> And your evidence for this is...???
Go watch some of the examples on YouTube. Or download a Linux distro and try
it for yourself.
Snit
12:48 AM:
I have... both.
Now to get back to the topic (the one you tried to change from): What makes
you think other platforms (or those who make them) wish they had something
like Compiz.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
TomB
> TomB stated in post 201101020...@usenet.drumscum.be on 1/1/11 6:36 PM:
>
>> talk about it
>
> No, but it can be improved - and he talks about some of the ways to do so.
> And many of them mirror what I (and other in COLA) have been saying for
> quite some time.
>
> Why is it you think so many different people from different backgrounds come
> to very similar conclusions?
First of all, GNU/Linux is being improved constantly.
Secondly, the 'solutions' this guy suggests are childishly naive and
show that he doesn't' know or respect (or both) what makes the
GNU/Linux and F/OSS ecosystem tick. He's basically telling the
GNU/Linux community to 'pick one' (audio systems, package
management...) and be done with it. It's silly just even suggesting
that.
As for X.org: Canonical will be moving away from it soon, going with
Wayland instead. In doing so, they will only cause a bigger split in
the environment, because there's no way that advanced users will give
up the advanced functionality of X.org.
And this is how GNU/Linux works: lots of different solutions for lots
of different tastes and lots of different use cases. This had good and
bad implications, but one thing's for sure: it will never change.
--
In the beginning there was nothing. God said, 'Let there be light!' And
there was light. There was still nothing, but you could see it a whole
lot better.
~ Ellen DeGeneres
Hadron
> List of problems:
>
> * multimonitor support
Totally hosed now unless you take a degree in things with funny names
like, err, xrandr ...
> * updates killing nvidia drivers... lengthy process to fix every time
Not every time. Things have improved a lot. A year or so ago it was a
nightmare. Ask Chris Ahlstrom. He will lie and say it works for him no
doubt but links are there ...
> * driver model flawed
> * slides were lousy to work with
> * audio problems
My laptop running Debian Squeeze now makes NO sound after a hibernate
and wake up. Alsa restart doesnt fix it.
> * wi-fi issues
Rare these days.
> * updates that break core functionality
> * lack of software for tasks
>
> Different frameworks... fragmentation. Duplicated effort. Duplicate
> APIs.
A big problem.
>
> x.org... thinks like compbiz need to hack it to work. Needs to be
> re-written... this is being done. Needs more testing... updates kill old
> fixes too often.
Not enough testers.
>
> Hypocrisy of demonizing Apple and MS for what is common on Linux.
Duh!
>
> Huge number of forks (ex. of Skype). Wasted effort - lots of package
> maintenance that should not have to happen.
Just look at all the different ways of accessing the *same* formats
... Ridiculous.
>
> Lacks of specific types of applications:
> audio editing: No good work flows for prof or even good hobbyist.
> nothing even like Garage Band. None on Linux cut it. Not even close.
>
> video editing: some good commercial stuff, but nothing free.
> need to build from source. GIMP needs to do a lot more to
> be on par with Photoshop. Need to make it easy for Adobe to
> port Photoshop! Right now it is not.
But we agree that Gimp IS good enough for 99% of what people need I
think. I think it is anyway.
>
> These things are not that much of a niche... look at GarageBand and
> MovieMaker
>
> Leads to less functionality than a mid-90s Mac or PC.
>
> Need developers. Need to pay them. "Developers need to eat" Even for good
> developers they are often getting about 24K / year. That sucks.
> People
Huh? Surely they can contribute for free and earn their money during the
day writing closed source proprietary SW like Chris and Peter?
> need to pay. Need to be willing to pay for Adobe and MS software, etc.
> These companies care about *money*... if Linux products would sell they
> would make them.
Huh? But then the COLA freetards would want the source code. The fork it
and give it away. Aint gonna happen.
>
> Need Photoshop. Design folks *need* it to get the work done. Same with
> AutoCAD. It is not the standard and it does not have the
> functionality.
Autocad yes.
>
> Also problem with games.
Games? What games?
>
> WINE: even if it works... it might not in the future. To use WINE is a
> risk. [Also makes troubleshooting more complex.]
Wine breaks from release to release. It's a non stop put the finger in
the new hole that springs a leak.
>
> Adding more developers does not make things better... it makes it worse.
> "Many eyes" helps with some bugs and security problems... but not good for
> core features.
Mythical Man Month. Spot on.
>
> Oh, and the slides can be found here: <http://lunduke.com/?p=429>
>
> On a side note: the slides are done quite poorly. What is sad is if you
> just export the file as a PPT and then open it with either PowerPoint or
> Pages, things line up better and the background image looks better. This is
> a file presumably made with OO, and it looks better in the competition.
> This does not speak well for OO!
>
> On a second side note: he mentions getting software from apt-get or aptitude
> without any warnings or whatever.
Typical .. ;)
Hadron
What flexibility are you referring to? You talk as someone that has NO
idea about SW. It is you Gortard isn't it? .....
Hadron
You must remember that Marti once copied a line into his fstab to make
his webcam work. When asked "why" and "how did that fix it" he laughed
out loud hysterically to summon the herd. To this day he has NO idea how
or why it fixed the issue. And he's too stupid and self impressed with
his ability to edit the fstab to ask "err, WHY did I have to do it in
the first place".
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> What makes you think other platforms (or those who make them) wish they
> had something like Compiz.
Because it’s the coolest desktop of them all.
Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> writes:
>
>> In message <C944D40C.88923%use...@gallopinginsanity.com>, Snit wrote:
>>
>>> x.org... thinks like compbiz need to hack it to work.
>>
>> Other platforms wish they had something like Compiz. The fact is,
>> proprietary GUIs have nowhere near that kind of flexibility.
>
> What flexibility are you referring to?
Modularity, as in having different pieces of software plug together and work
reliably. A common characteristic of Free Software, where different groups
tend to cooperate, rather than see each other as rivals.
Hadron
Hence I wonder if TomB is related to Creepy Chris. Did he even WATCH the
video?
Does he really think these people made the issues up?
Does he really think his wonder PC that has NONE of the issues listed is
typical?
Hell, even Ahlstrom admitted to nvidia issues and grub2 mbr issues.
TomB is, sorry, telling lies again. I don't believe he NEVER has any of
these issues since my experience (which is considerably more extensive
than his) tells me these issues are there. As do ALL the forums.
TomB
> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>
>> List of problems:
>>
>> * multimonitor support
>
> Totally hosed now unless you take a degree in things with funny names
> like, err, xrandr ...
Bollocks. I'm not saying there are no issues at all, but they sure
aren't the norm.
On my Acer laptop I have the following little script in my .xsession
file:
% cat $HOME/bin/dual
#!/bin/sh
/usr/bin/xrandr --output LVDS1 --auto
/usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --auto
/usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --right-of LVDS1
Just Works™
And on my Dell laptop (running Ubuntu 10.04) the dual monitor settings
are handled just fine with the Gnome settings tool (nouveau driver) or
the nvidia set-up program (proprietary nvidia driver).
>> * updates killing nvidia drivers... lengthy process to fix every time
>
> Not every time. Things have improved a lot. A year or so ago it was a
> nightmare. Ask Chris Ahlstrom. He will lie and say it works for him no
> doubt but links are there ...
Since DKMS driver updates are a no-brainer, unless you use stuff that
isn't provided by the distro.
>> * driver model flawed
>> * slides were lousy to work with
>> * audio problems
>
> My laptop running Debian Squeeze now makes NO sound after a hibernate
> and wake up. Alsa restart doesnt fix it.
One does not 'restart' alsa.
>> * wi-fi issues
>
> Rare these days.
Damn right, although there still are some driver issues with some
hardware.
>> * updates that break core functionality
>> * lack of software for tasks
>>
>> different frameworks... fragmentation. duplicated effort. duplicate
>> apis.
>
> a big problem.
It's the other side of the coin. F/OSS is completely open, and
therefor anyone can do whatever they like with it, often in opposite
directions.
You like Debian, right? Well, imagine what would happen if the
GNU/Linux culling commitee scrapped APT in favor of RMP. Then scrapped
all window managers in favor of compiz. Then scrapped all desktop
environments in favor of Gnome. GUI toolkit? Use GTK2 - dump Qt. And
also scrapped all audio subsystems in favor of gstreamer. And finally
scrapped X.org in favor of Wayland. From that point on all GNU/Linux
distros have to use said set of systems.
The result: you will no longer be able to use GNU/Linux the way /you/
like best. Same for me.
--
Humor is reason gone mad.
~ Groucho Marx
Clogwog
news:4D1FC45B...@smartchat.net.au...
Why do you post here?
You preach "Peace Legacy will focus on practical application of the
Principle of Goodness to anything and everything that can help build a
peaceful world"
Wrong group for you, read and learn about your fellow advocates:
(p)Rick: "Fuck you, you lying bitch."
(p)Rick: "Eat shit and die, bitch."
(p)Rick: "Bigot bitch"
(p)Rick: "You are such a dishonest, bigoted bitch"
(p)Rick: "I see you're still a one note bitch. "
(p)Rick: "The only bitch around here is you"
(p)Rick: "You must be a disgusting, lying, bitch."
(p)Rick: "You show your dishonesty bitch fish"
[H]ypocrite [H]omer: "Shut your fat mouth you stupid fucking American inbred
Redneck"
chrisv (in one post): "Fsck you...snotty POS....asshole...worthless waste of
skin...you suck shit...God-damned...fsckwit...Wintroll fsckwits."
Greg Shearman: "fuckwit lying cunt" (among dozens of other uses of fuck and
fucking, ass, asshole)
Greg Shearman: "You must be the biggest fucking loser of all time."
Tattoo Vampire: "His asshole is so reamed out he has room for an oxygen
tank, too."
Tattoo Vampire: "Snotwad, you suck major hemorrhoid-infested bungholes."
Tattoo Vampire: "Trolling Usenet isn't a living, you headfucked idiot."
Tattoo Vampire: "You pitiful freak. Die, quickly. :-P "
Tattoo Vampire: "Do us a favor and shoot yourself in the head. No, wait, you
have no vital organs in there... n/m"
Tattoo Vampire: "Lick the sweat off my balls after a 3-mile run, flatty."
Tattoo Vampire: "And why do you even fucking care, you worthless turd?"
Tattoo Vampire: "That you're a fucking idiot who should have been aborted
long before birth?"
Tattoo Vampire: "Wow - you're a useless idiot. Que surprise!"
Tattoo Vampire: "And the asshole Wintrolls hijack yet another thread.Why
don't all you idiots just drop dead?"
Tattoo Vampire: "Too bad you're not. Filth like you deserves to drop dead."
Tattoo Vampire: "Go fuck yourself, twat."
Tattoo Vampire: "Get the fuck out, then, bitch."
AZ Nonad: "I've seen the microsoft cocksucker's other posts. I'm surprised
he can type with that enormous penis in his face."
Doug Mentohl: "Fuck off, get aids, get cancer, die a slow painfull death, in
fact let your whole genetic line become extinct ... "
Doug Mentohl: "When are you going to get cancer and die. Hopfully before
your jizz infects any unfortunate female you rohypnoled on one of your
'dates' .. "
Doug Mentohl: "Fuck off, get cancer and die a long and painfull death."
Doug Mentohl: "fuck Tim Smith the Usenet, Digg and Slashdot stalker .."
Doug Mentohl: "What the fuck are you on about you ignorant CUNT"
Kier: "go fuck yourself"
Philip Callan: "You ignorant fuck ..."
Chris Ahlstrom
> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>
>> The lack of response does say a lot.
Yes, it says that Snit and "Juan" are such odious posters that most people
have them kill-filed, so we don't have to read their inane drivel.
> This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you
> guys want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
>
> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
> that - according to him - sucks.
>
> All I can say is that:
> - I don't have issues with dual monitor set-ups
Funny:
http://www.online-tech-tips.com/windows-7/how-to-setup-dual-monitors-in-windows-7/
Windows 7 has some neat little enhancements, one of them being how it
lets you handle dual monitors. If you're adding a second monitor to
your Windows 7 home or office PC, which is a very good idea, it's a
breeze to configure.
After the short explanation, follows 38 posts, roughly half of which are
people complaining about problems getting dual monitors to work on their
systems.
Hmmm:
Yeah, seriously, I heard about this new great Windows 7 OS, and how easy
and nice it was, and I stuck with Linux. Why? Because 90% of the shit you
can NOW do on Windows 7, you could do probably 5 or more years ago on
Linux/Gnome. Compiz even makes it better.
Microsoft: Hey! Wait for us! We're the leaders!
--
"Remember, Information is not knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom;
Wisdom is not truth; Truth is not beauty; Beauty is not love;
Love is not music; Music is the best." -- Frank Zappa
Chris Ahlstrom
> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:
>> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>>
>>> List of problems:
>>>
>>> * multimonitor support
>>
>> Totally hosed now unless you take a degree in things with funny names
>> like, err, xrandr ...
>
> Bollocks. I'm not saying there are no issues at all, but they sure
> aren't the norm.
"Hadron" is lying.
> On my Acer laptop I have the following little script in my .xsession
> file:
>
> % cat $HOME/bin/dual
>
> #!/bin/sh
> /usr/bin/xrandr --output LVDS1 --auto
> /usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --auto
> /usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --right-of LVDS1
>
> Just Works???
>
> And on my Dell laptop (running Ubuntu 10.04) the dual monitor settings
> are handled just fine with the Gnome settings tool (nouveau driver) or
> the nvidia set-up program (proprietary nvidia driver).
>
>>> * updates killing nvidia drivers... lengthy process to fix every time
>>
>> Not every time. Things have improved a lot. A year or so ago it was a
>> nightmare. Ask Chris Ahlstrom. He will lie and say it works for him no
>> doubt but links are there ...
"Hadron" is lying.
1. It is not a nightmare. That is just the Microsoft shill in "Hadron"
talking.
2. I've explained the various issues I have had (and solved) many times
over. That's just the asshole in "Hadron" talking.
> Since DKMS driver updates are a no-brainer, unless you use stuff that
> isn't provided by the distro.
>
>>> * driver model flawed
>>> * slides were lousy to work with
>>> * audio problems
>>
>> My laptop running Debian Squeeze now makes NO sound after a hibernate
>> and wake up. Alsa restart doesnt fix it.
>
> One does not 'restart' alsa.
I'm glad "Hadron" admits that he really doesn't know much about Debian.
Debian Squeeze on my Acer laptop has only 1 issue -- closing the lid
doesn't automatically suspend it, I have to use the Fn-Zz key. But
resume works *perfectly*.
>>> * wi-fi issues
>>
>> Rare these days.
>
> Damn right, although there still are some driver issues with some
> hardware.
>
>>> * updates that break core functionality
>>> * lack of software for tasks
>>>
>>> different frameworks... fragmentation. duplicated effort. duplicate
>>> apis.
>>
>> a big problem.
>
> It's the other side of the coin.
No, actually it is the insane troll amplifying his complaints beyond all
bounds.
"....getting high performance Video cards working is a damn sight easier on
XP because the installers are better. Debian/Ubuntu are a pain in the hole
- you need to recompile the latest NVidia drivers using a set version of the
compiler, for example, when changing kernels."
-- "True Linux Advocate" "Hadron". Copied from Google Groups.
> F/OSS is completely open, and
> therefor anyone can do whatever they like with it, often in opposite
> directions.
>
> You like Debian, right? Well, imagine what would happen if the
> GNU/Linux culling commitee scrapped APT in favor of RMP. Then scrapped
> all window managers in favor of compiz. Then scrapped all desktop
> environments in favor of Gnome. GUI toolkit? Use GTK2 - dump Qt. And
> also scrapped all audio subsystems in favor of gstreamer. And finally
> scrapped X.org in favor of Wayland. From that point on all GNU/Linux
> distros have to use said set of systems.
>
> The result: you will no longer be able to use GNU/Linux the way /you/
> like best. Same for me.
"Hadron" "uses" Debian for only one reason. To seem more credible while
complaining loudly about it and abusing people who enjoying using it.
And the crazy thing about it is that "Hadron"'s bullet-list of FUD pretty
much echoes the bullet-lists of FUD of every troll that's ever signed onto a
message group and promoted Microsoft software against Linux software.
And yet he claims:
My Debian development system is MUCH better than any Windows system I
have ever used. Why? Bash shell, easy to architect and administer
etc. Super stable. And I do get more bang for the buck than from a
Windows install uin terms of HW utilization. ...
-- "True Linux Advocate" "Hadron". Copied from Google Groups.
The follow-on dismissals and screaming against Linux and its
advocates snipped.
--
Once more for the hard of brain power : I use testing. Not unstable. And I
use it for a reason - Debian Stable is simply too buggy and backward and I
cant be arsed to manage pinning or selectively monitoring backports.
-- "Hadron" <fr08c1$9e1$2...@registered.motzarella.org>
Richard Rasker
> Time and time again the noob Linux user having difficulties is
> confronted by a so called Linux advocate who will claim "works for
> me".
OK, then you should have no trouble producing a copious amount of examples
of such postings from Linux advocates. Trouble is, I can hardly find any.
Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but if I search for the
phrase "works for me", most of what I find are said accusations from
Wintrolls -- in other words: a straw man along the same lines as "Linux is
perfect" or "Linux is secure, period." etcetera.
And even if people say something "works for them", it's not a fallacy, but
merely unhelpful, at least if that's all they contribute when some newbie
asks for help.
Even in the days when DFS endlessly regurgitated bug reports from Ubuntu
formus, I can't recall having seen many (if any) replies along the lines
of "works for me". What I /do/ see, is lots of people patiently trying to
help newbies and experienced Linux users alike to sort out any problems
they may be having.
Having said this, I agree that the way newbies are helped can often be
improved upon -- mostly by explaining things in a simpler and more explicit
manner. "Helpful" instructions like "Just set the LC_LOCALE environment
variable" or "simply put the executable somewhere in $PATH" mean nothing to
someone who can't even distinguish between concepts such as Internet,
browser, computer and OS.
From experience I can say that it's often quite hard to "dumb down" (no
offence meant) one's point of view to that of someone who is /not/ an
expert in particular subject matter.
Richard Rasker
--
http://www.linetec.nl
amicus_curious
"bbgruff" <bbg...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8o9tta...@mid.individual.net...
> On Saturday 01 January 2011 20:04 amicus_curious wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "bbgruff" <bbg...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:8o8vae...@mid.individual.net...
>>> On Saturday 01 January 2011 01:12 Juan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Time and time again
>>>
>>> Time and time again, we get "new" posters here who seem so similar in
>>> style
>>> and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
>>>
>> Well, go ahead and shoot the messenger, bb, particularly if he deserves
> it,
>
> I don't know about "shooting" him - in all fairness, he probably should be
> pitied.
> The poor soul seems to have made this group a large part of his life, and
> trolling it his vocation.....
>
You have to face the reality that we are all "trolling" in some way here, at
least in the sense that we perceive some fairly sharp distinctions within
the group of interests that define "we" and "they" and even "the others".
COLA is not a place for building associations with people of like minds.
Rather it is the forum for testing methods of disheartening one's opponents.
No one should place any confidence in actually achieving a victory, of
course. The COLA hearts are hardened beyond any redemption for those who
persist year after year and that provides a barren ground for even the most
vigorous seed of thought. There have been those who have disappeared, at
least in their original persona over the years, although even their biggest
critics only believe that they have simply shifted their pseudonym to
something else. That has created a whole new aspect to the forum wherein
one side can totally ignore the argument presented by someone from another
side by labeling them as a "nymshifter" and thereby saving the effort
involved in refutation of whatever charge is being made.
>> but what about the message? I actually listened to the whole 44 minutes
>
> Forgive me digressing for a moment, but that made me smile. You seem to
> be
> implying that I should have watched it myself. This in *spite* of the
> fact
> that:-
>
> - I am using a Linux computer, and according to your own predictions of
> 2004
> Linux would (with the rest of FOSS) have ceased to exist 18 moths or more
> ago...
>
> - I use Firefox, which according to you (6.5 years ago) nobody would
> bother
> to download since Internet Explorer was used by over 96% of people.
>
> - To see the video, I would need to view it in Firefox/Linux. Isn't that
> impossible?
>
> - I have dual monitors, and according to flatfish, these don't work with
> Ubuntu.
>
> - We all know that sound doesn't work in Linux, so I presumably can't hear
> it?
>
> - Even viewing the page as text would be very problematic, because as
> flatfish has told us so often, the Linux fonts are so bad as to be
> unreadable!
>
> You see my problems? :-)
>
I know that well, bb. I have periodically struggled to get a computer fully
functional with Linux and have encountered the same frustrations and
irritations that you have doubtless suffered. Fortunately for myself, the
exercise was mostly academic as part of an effort to sample the current
state of the Linux "art" and nothing critical to my real activities was
threatened.
With your insight, I am sure that you can understand my general attitude
towards Linux and how that might have colored my predictions about its
future. Since then, I have not been so rash as to jump to what I thought
were obvious conclusions. Rather I have been trying to understand what
would cause people to stay with such a fruitless endeavor for such a long
time. As it turns out, the phenomena seems to be a manifestation of what is
not termed the "Stockholm Syndrome".
> However, yes, I have now watched/listened it through.
>
>
>> and
>> it was interesting to see Linux discussed rationally. Or at least
>> rationally in terms of practical matters pertaining to its future on the
>> desktop.
>
> I absolutely agree with you!
> How different from the home life of our own dear cola!
>
Well, it lacked the presence of competent Microsoft advocates to point out
the hopelessness of the situation. Presumably it lacked anyone as clueless
as the magpie set here as well since their braying is just a response to a
pro-MS statement. That alone sharply reduces the noise level.
>> Do you have any answer to the points that were raised in the
>> video?
>
> I'm afraid not, but there again, I'm just an idiot - ask hadron :-)
> A couple of things did strike me though -
>
> First, and very early on, it was made clear that the Desktop is what was
> being talked about. Embedded, mobile, server(?), etc. were specifically
> excluded, and declared "rock-solid". The discussion therefore related to
> about 1% of Linux instances - The Desktop.
>
That is a very productive tactic, I agree. Using factoids gleaned from
server or embedded cases to bolster or counter some claim about the desktop
is very common here. Maybe there should be a new extension to
C.O.L.A.Desktop made.
> Secondly, I hadn't expected to watch it through - 45 minutes is a long
> time.
> However, I was very pleasantly surprised to see/hear the points raised
> being
> discussed in such a friendly and co-operative manner. I don't think that
> I
> SHOULD have been surprised - this is exactly the sort of atmosphere in
> which
> (in my limited experience) the folks who actually know what they are doing
> meet and get (FOSS) things done.
Certainly it is necessary to have a common purpose in order to achieve any
progress. As I said above, that is not really the reason that people gather
at COLA, though.
Hadron
> Juan wrote:
>
>> Time and time again the noob Linux user having difficulties is
>> confronted by a so called Linux advocate who will claim "works for
>> me".
>
> OK, then you should have no trouble producing a copious amount of examples
> of such postings from Linux advocates. Trouble is, I can hardly find any.
> Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but if I search for the
Or you're an idiot.
Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that the COLA "advocates" don't shrill that
it works for them?
Snit
1/2/11 6:05 AM:
As I have noted: the "advocates" will all claim to magically never run into
the problems which are noted as being common among the LinuxFest folks. Now
will they explain why the OO presentation looks better when converted to a
PowerPoint file and opened there or in Keynote.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
AM:
> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>
>> List of problems:
>>
>> * multimonitor support
>
> Totally hosed now unless you take a degree in things with funny names
> like, err, xrandr ...
>
>> * updates killing nvidia drivers... lengthy process to fix every time
>
> Not every time. Things have improved a lot. A year or so ago it was a
> nightmare. Ask Chris Ahlstrom. He will lie and say it works for him no
> doubt but links are there ...
>
>> * driver model flawed
>> * slides were lousy to work with
>> * audio problems
>
> My laptop running Debian Squeeze now makes NO sound after a hibernate
> and wake up. Alsa restart doesnt fix it.
>
>> * wi-fi issues
>
> Rare these days.
And this was noted in this year's "Linux (Still) Sucks" talks:
<http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
Of note: you are the only one to look at the claims and say which you think
are still relevant and which you think are not. And your claims pretty
closely match up to what was said at the LinuxFest.
>> * updates that break core functionality
>> * lack of software for tasks
>>
>> Different frameworks... fragmentation. Duplicated effort. Duplicate
>> APIs.
>
> A big problem.
Yes. And contrary to what we often hear in COLA, there is no need for a
culling committee or any other nonsense to improve this situation.
>> x.org... thinks like compbiz need to hack it to work. Needs to be
>> re-written... this is being done. Needs more testing... updates kill old
>> fixes too often.
>
> Not enough testers.
>
>
>>
>> Hypocrisy of demonizing Apple and MS for what is common on Linux.
>
> Duh!
Absolutely.
>> Huge number of forks (ex. of Skype). Wasted effort - lots of package
>> maintenance that should not have to happen.
>
> Just look at all the different ways of accessing the *same* formats
> ... Ridiculous.
>
>
>>
>> Lacks of specific types of applications:
>> audio editing: No good work flows for prof or even good hobbyist.
>> nothing even like Garage Band. None on Linux cut it. Not even close.
>>
>> video editing: some good commercial stuff, but nothing free.
>> need to build from source. GIMP needs to do a lot more to
>> be on par with Photoshop. Need to make it easy for Adobe to
>> port Photoshop! Right now it is not.
>
> But we agree that Gimp IS good enough for 99% of what people need I
> think. I think it is anyway.
In the two talks they explain why it would be better to have Photoshop, but,
sure, GIMP works for many things. But even for prosumers, there are a lot
of features in Photoshop that benefit them greatly that GIMP does not have -
layer sets and smart layers for example. Even things like Free Transform,
which effects can be done in GIMP but less efficiently, is a benefit to
users.
>> These things are not that much of a niche... look at GarageBand and
>> MovieMaker
>>
>> Leads to less functionality than a mid-90s Mac or PC.
>>
>> Need developers. Need to pay them. "Developers need to eat" Even for good
>> developers they are often getting about 24K / year. That sucks.
>> People
>
> Huh? Surely they can contribute for free and earn their money during the
> day writing closed source proprietary SW like Chris and Peter?
Of course. :)
>> need to pay. Need to be willing to pay for Adobe and MS software, etc.
>> These companies care about *money*... if Linux products would sell they
>> would make them.
>
> Huh? But then the COLA freetards would want the source code. The fork it
> and give it away. Aint gonna happen.
It will not be released as free. Why would Adobe do that?
>> Need Photoshop. Design folks *need* it to get the work done. Same with
>> AutoCAD. It is not the standard and it does not have the
>> functionality.
>
> Autocad yes.
>
>>
>> Also problem with games.
>
> Games? What games?
Mine sweeper? :)
>> WINE: even if it works... it might not in the future. To use WINE is a
>> risk. [Also makes troubleshooting more complex.]
>
> Wine breaks from release to release. It's a non stop put the finger in
> the new hole that springs a leak.
>>
>> Adding more developers does not make things better... it makes it worse.
>> "Many eyes" helps with some bugs and security problems... but not good for
>> core features.
>
> Mythical Man Month. Spot on.
>
>>
>> Oh, and the slides can be found here: <http://lunduke.com/?p=429>
>>
>> On a side note: the slides are done quite poorly. What is sad is if you
>> just export the file as a PPT and then open it with either PowerPoint or
>> Pages, things line up better and the background image looks better. This is
>> a file presumably made with OO, and it looks better in the competition.
>> This does not speak well for OO!
>>
>> On a second side note: he mentions getting software from apt-get or aptitude
>> without any warnings or whatever.
>
> Typical .. ;)
>
>
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
AM:
You can configure Compiz to do all sorts of things. But why? OS X has the
APIs to do this as well... but Apple is smart enough not to.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
AM:
None of the "advocates" have the problems the folks at LinuxFest say they
commonly see. And none can explain why the OO presentation looks better in
PowerPoint and Keynote after *nothing* but being converted. It is quite
telling.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
2:22 AM:
> In message <C9457ECD.889B2%use...@gallopinginsanity.com>, Snit wrote:
>
>> What makes you think other platforms (or those who make them) wish they
>> had something like Compiz.
>
> Because it零 the coolest desktop of them all.
Ah, you like it so you think they should... even though they clearly have
the technology and APIs to do much the same but do not care to.
In other words, you have no support. Got it.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
2:23 AM:
I advocate having free software work together *better* than it does now...
and am called a WinTroll for doing so. Even though my example of an OS /
environment that does more of what I am talking about (in some ways) is OS X
and not Windows.
Funny.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>> TomB stated in post 201101020...@usenet.drumscum.be on 1/1/11 6:36 PM:
>>
>>> - You cannot 'manage' the GNU/Linux ecosystem, no matter how much you
>>> talk about it
>>
>> No, but it can be improved - and he talks about some of the ways to do so.
>> And many of them mirror what I (and other in COLA) have been saying for
>> quite some time.
>>
>> Why is it you think so many different people from different backgrounds come
>> to very similar conclusions?
>
> First of all, GNU/Linux is being improved constantly.
Not in contention.
> Secondly, the 'solutions' this guy suggests are childishly naive and
> show that he doesn't' know or respect (or both) what makes the
> GNU/Linux and F/OSS ecosystem tick.
I disagree.
> He's basically telling the GNU/Linux community to 'pick one' (audio systems,
> package management...) and be done with it. It's silly just even suggesting
> that.
He actually suggests the major distros do so... not everyone.
> As for X.org: Canonical will be moving away from it soon, going with
> Wayland instead. In doing so, they will only cause a bigger split in
> the environment, because there's no way that advanced users will give
> up the advanced functionality of X.org.
Sadly X.org did not fit their needs well... likely largely because of the
problems he notes.
> And this is how GNU/Linux works: lots of different solutions for lots
> of different tastes and lots of different use cases. This had good and
> bad implications, but one thing's for sure: it will never change.
The fact most programs are now made, at least to some extent, for KDE or
Gnome shows otherwise. And, I predict, as time goes on those two projects
will work together more.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Hadron
> Hadron stated in post ifpfpj$v55$2...@news.eternal-september.org on 1/2/11 2:16
> AM:
>
>> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>>
>>> List of problems:
>>>
>>> * multimonitor support
>>
>> Totally hosed now unless you take a degree in things with funny names
>> like, err, xrandr ...
>>
>>> * updates killing nvidia drivers... lengthy process to fix every time
>>
>> Not every time. Things have improved a lot. A year or so ago it was a
>> nightmare. Ask Chris Ahlstrom. He will lie and say it works for him no
>> doubt but links are there ...
>>
>>> * driver model flawed
>>> * slides were lousy to work with
>>> * audio problems
>>
>> My laptop running Debian Squeeze now makes NO sound after a hibernate
>> and wake up. Alsa restart doesnt fix it.
>>
>>> * wi-fi issues
>>
>> Rare these days.
>
> And this was noted in this year's "Linux (Still) Sucks" talks:
>
> <http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
>
> Of note: you are the only one to look at the claims and say which you think
> are still relevant and which you think are not. And your claims pretty
> closely match up to what was said at the LinuxFest.
Because I use Debian and pretty much ONLY Debian. I used Windows for my
Blackberry last year and dumped it. I needed Windows to sync my Android
phone and since dumped that too. I *DID* use Windows for my Garmin - but
now I have found some great OSS and finally figured out how to do things
more manually (not a major task). eg @ Garmin Connect you can "manually
upload" a .fit file (activity log for a trip) by selecting the file on
the Garmin device which mounts as most external drives do. BTW, this is
great :-
http://mytourbook.sourceforge.net/mytourbook/
And then there are various online tools to convert gpx tracks to kml for
google maps etc.
You can EASILY create your own routes using something like
It's a LOT easier on Windows of course since you just run
MapSource. That said, after the initial frustration (I tried running
mapsource in Wine and found that my Wine setup is screwed over AGAIN
after the latest updates) and I familiarised myself with the basic file
types its all pretty straightforward from a Linux desktop to store,
manipulate upload/download my tracks.
>
>>> * updates that break core functionality
>>> * lack of software for tasks
>>>
>>> Different frameworks... fragmentation. Duplicated effort. Duplicate
>>> APIs.
>>
>> A big problem.
>
> Yes. And contrary to what we often hear in COLA, there is no need for a
> culling committee or any other nonsense to improve this situation.
The nature of "open and free" means efforts to create core APIs will be
dismissed. Usually by clueless idiots like Chris AHlstrom. I could not
believe how rude and critical the little suck up was about Joerg
Schilling : and all because he was making an effort with Mono and thus
enabling .net apps on Linux. Chris will be running around like an
excited puppy dog telling anyone who will listen how vi and gdb "meet
his needs" and POSIX compliance is "all he needs". He is of course a
show off and a bragger - but I think you realise that by now.
All "extra things" can be a benefit. I wonder how many people really
need some of these things though. But yes if they really need them or
the work effort to reproduce similar end products in Gimp is too high
then splash out on the better product and the better product is
obviously Photoshop. Want to see how "active" Gimp is? Pop into #gimp
on freenode. Almost always empty bar one or two old timers.
>
>>> These things are not that much of a niche... look at GarageBand and
>>> MovieMaker
>>>
>>> Leads to less functionality than a mid-90s Mac or PC.
>>>
>>> Need developers. Need to pay them. "Developers need to eat" Even for good
>>> developers they are often getting about 24K / year. That sucks.
>>> People
>>
>> Huh? Surely they can contribute for free and earn their money during the
>> day writing closed source proprietary SW like Chris and Peter?
>
> Of course. :)
>
>>> need to pay. Need to be willing to pay for Adobe and MS software, etc.
>>> These companies care about *money*... if Linux products would sell they
>>> would make them.
>>
>> Huh? But then the COLA freetards would want the source code. The fork it
>> and give it away. Aint gonna happen.
>
> It will not be released as free. Why would Adobe do that?
>
>>> Need Photoshop. Design folks *need* it to get the work done. Same with
>>> AutoCAD. It is not the standard and it does not have the
>>> functionality.
>>
>> Autocad yes.
>>
>>>
>>> Also problem with games.
>>
>> Games? What games?
>
> Mine sweeper? :)
see lokigames for how the Linux crowd support initiatives like porting
professional games to Linux. The market share is simply too low and a
HUGE proportion of that 0.9% are OSS fanatics, pirates and freetards.
Snit
> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:
>> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>>
>>> List of problems:
>>>
>>> * multimonitor support
>>
>> Totally hosed now unless you take a degree in things with funny names
>> like, err, xrandr ...
>
> Bollocks. I'm not saying there are no issues at all, but they sure
> aren't the norm.
>
> On my Acer laptop I have the following little script in my .xsession
> file:
>
> % cat $HOME/bin/dual
>
> #!/bin/sh
> /usr/bin/xrandr --output LVDS1 --auto
> /usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --auto
> /usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --right-of LVDS1
>
> Just Works
>
> And on my Dell laptop (running Ubuntu 10.04) the dual monitor settings
> are handled just fine with the Gnome settings tool (nouveau driver) or
> the nvidia set-up program (proprietary nvidia driver).
Can you explain why the folks at LinuxFest apparently feel differently?
>>> * updates killing nvidia drivers... lengthy process to fix every time
>>
>> Not every time. Things have improved a lot. A year or so ago it was a
>> nightmare. Ask Chris Ahlstrom. He will lie and say it works for him no
>> doubt but links are there ...
>
> Since DKMS driver updates are a no-brainer, unless you use stuff that
> isn't provided by the distro.
>
>>> * driver model flawed
>>> * slides were lousy to work with
>>> * audio problems
>>
>> My laptop running Debian Squeeze now makes NO sound after a hibernate
>> and wake up. Alsa restart doesnt fix it.
>
> One does not 'restart' alsa.
>
>>> * wi-fi issues
>>
>> Rare these days.
>
> Damn right, although there still are some driver issues with some
> hardware.
The improvement here is discussed in this year's "Why Linux (Still) Sucks"
seminar. <http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
>>> * updates that break core functionality
>>> * lack of software for tasks
>>>
>>> different frameworks... fragmentation. duplicated effort. duplicate
>>> apis.
>>
>> a big problem.
>
> It's the other side of the coin. F/OSS is completely open, and
> therefor anyone can do whatever they like with it, often in opposite
> directions.
>
> You like Debian, right? Well, imagine what would happen if the
> GNU/Linux culling commitee scrapped APT in favor of RMP.
What "culling committee"? Nobody is advocating that, at least not in this
thread. You complain when Hadron misrepresents people's views, but that is
what you are claiming here.
> Then scrapped all window managers in favor of compiz. Then scrapped all
> desktop environments in favor of Gnome. GUI toolkit? Use GTK2 - dump Qt. And
> also scrapped all audio subsystems in favor of gstreamer. And finally scrapped
> X.org in favor of Wayland. From that point on all GNU/Linux distros have to
> use said set of systems.
>
> The result: you will no longer be able to use GNU/Linux the way /you/
> like best. Same for me.
I do not think anyone is saying people cannot use it the way they like.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Hadron
> TomB stated in post 201101021...@usenet.drumscum.be on 1/2/11 3:47 AM:
>
>> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:
>>> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> List of problems:
>>>>
>>>> * multimonitor support
>>>
>>> Totally hosed now unless you take a degree in things with funny names
>>> like, err, xrandr ...
>>
>> Bollocks. I'm not saying there are no issues at all, but they sure
>> aren't the norm.
Yes they are. For non techy users who just want it to work.
>>
>> On my Acer laptop I have the following little script in my .xsession
>> file:
>>
>> % cat $HOME/bin/dual
>>
>> #!/bin/sh
>> /usr/bin/xrandr --output LVDS1 --auto
>> /usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --auto
>> /usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --right-of LVDS1
>>
>> Just Works
>>
>> And on my Dell laptop (running Ubuntu 10.04) the dual monitor settings
>> are handled just fine with the Gnome settings tool (nouveau driver) or
>> the nvidia set-up program (proprietary nvidia driver).
>
> Can you explain why the folks at LinuxFest apparently feel differently?
Stop a second. Reread what TomB has. .xsession? "Huh" says the average
desktop user. Why this and not in xorg.conf? he uses the xorg.conf I
would guess on the laptop it seems.
Crikey, there was a time when every other nvidia driver update broke
xrandr again.
No one says "it can not work". What people are saying is that it can
damn hard to find out what you need to know to get it to work.
I'm interested why he's using sh too. Where are his resolution settings
btw?
Snit
AM:
...
>>>> * wi-fi issues
>>>
>>> Rare these days.
>>
>> And this was noted in this year's "Linux (Still) Sucks" talks:
>>
>> <http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
>>
>> Of note: you are the only one to look at the claims and say which you think
>> are still relevant and which you think are not. And your claims pretty
>> closely match up to what was said at the LinuxFest.
>
> Because I use Debian and pretty much ONLY Debian.
With all of the claims that you do not know Linux, in this discussion you
are showing you know it as well or better than any of the "advocates" who
have posted.
> I used Windows for my
> Blackberry last year and dumped it. I needed Windows to sync my Android
> phone and since dumped that too. I *DID* use Windows for my Garmin - but
> now I have found some great OSS and finally figured out how to do things
> more manually (not a major task). eg @ Garmin Connect you can "manually
> upload" a .fit file (activity log for a trip) by selecting the file on
> the Garmin device which mounts as most external drives do. BTW, this is
> great :-
>
> http://mytourbook.sourceforge.net/mytourbook/
>
> And then there are various online tools to convert gpx tracks to kml for
> google maps etc.
>
> You can EASILY create your own routes using something like
>
> http://bikeroutetoaster.com/
>
> It's a LOT easier on Windows of course since you just run
> MapSource. That said, after the initial frustration (I tried running
> mapsource in Wine and found that my Wine setup is screwed over AGAIN
> after the latest updates) and I familiarised myself with the basic file
> types its all pretty straightforward from a Linux desktop to store,
> manipulate upload/download my tracks.
You clearly do more with desktop Linux than I do.
>>>> * updates that break core functionality
>>>> * lack of software for tasks
>>>>
>>>> Different frameworks... fragmentation. Duplicated effort. Duplicate
>>>> APIs.
>>>
>>> A big problem.
>>
>> Yes. And contrary to what we often hear in COLA, there is no need for a
>> culling committee or any other nonsense to improve this situation.
>
> The nature of "open and free" means efforts to create core APIs will be
> dismissed.
Sure - but different distros *could* work together more if they wanted to...
and for the betterment of the ecosystem they should. This does not mean
they all need to agree or have some ability to force others to do things
they do not want.
> Usually by clueless idiots like Chris AHlstrom. I could not
> believe how rude and critical the little suck up was about Joerg
> Schilling : and all because he was making an effort with Mono and thus
> enabling .net apps on Linux. Chris will be running around like an
> excited puppy dog telling anyone who will listen how vi and gdb "meet
> his needs" and POSIX compliance is "all he needs". He is of course a
> show off and a bragger - but I think you realise that by now.
Yes.
...
>>> But we agree that Gimp IS good enough for 99% of what people need I
>>> think. I think it is anyway.
>>
>> In the two talks they explain why it would be better to have Photoshop, but,
>> sure, GIMP works for many things. But even for prosumers, there are a lot
>> of features in Photoshop that benefit them greatly that GIMP does not have -
>> layer sets and smart layers for example. Even things like Free Transform,
>> which effects can be done in GIMP but less efficiently, is a benefit to
>> users.
>
> All "extra things" can be a benefit.
Well, there are also "extras" which I suspect few people use. I do not, for
example, talk about vanishing point and the like. I use these features from
time to time, but not many do.
> I wonder how many people really
> need some of these things though.
They allow a level of flexibility and choice that is not possible on GIMP.
> But yes if they really need them or the work effort to reproduce similar end
> products in Gimp is too high then splash out on the better product and the
> better product is obviously Photoshop. Want to see how "active" Gimp is? Pop
> into #gimp on freenode. Almost always empty bar one or two old timers.
Interesting.
...
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Hadron
> Hadron stated in post ifq8pe$6d5$1...@news.eternal-september.org on 1/2/11 9:23
> AM:
>
> ...
>>>>> * wi-fi issues
>>>>
>>>> Rare these days.
>>>
>>> And this was noted in this year's "Linux (Still) Sucks" talks:
>>>
>>> <http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
>>>
>>> Of note: you are the only one to look at the claims and say which you think
>>> are still relevant and which you think are not. And your claims pretty
>>> closely match up to what was said at the LinuxFest.
>>
>> Because I use Debian and pretty much ONLY Debian.
>
> With all of the claims that you do not know Linux, in this discussion you
> are showing you know it as well or better than any of the "advocates" who
> have posted.
None of the "advocates" really think I dont use it. Time and time again
in tech subjects I am right bar a couple of wording quibbles. I dont
know everything no, but it seems apparent to me that only an idiot would
think I dont use Linux.
>
>> I used Windows for my
>> Blackberry last year and dumped it. I needed Windows to sync my Android
>> phone and since dumped that too. I *DID* use Windows for my Garmin - but
>> now I have found some great OSS and finally figured out how to do things
>> more manually (not a major task). eg @ Garmin Connect you can "manually
>> upload" a .fit file (activity log for a trip) by selecting the file on
>> the Garmin device which mounts as most external drives do. BTW, this is
>> great :-
>>
>> http://mytourbook.sourceforge.net/mytourbook/
>>
>> And then there are various online tools to convert gpx tracks to kml for
>> google maps etc.
>>
>> You can EASILY create your own routes using something like
>>
>> http://bikeroutetoaster.com/
>>
>> It's a LOT easier on Windows of course since you just run
>> MapSource. That said, after the initial frustration (I tried running
>> mapsource in Wine and found that my Wine setup is screwed over AGAIN
>> after the latest updates) and I familiarised myself with the basic file
>> types its all pretty straightforward from a Linux desktop to store,
>> manipulate upload/download my tracks.
>
> You clearly do more with desktop Linux than I do.
I do ALL my programming, communications, route making, video watching
using Debian. I have Debian Lenny on a server. Debian Squeeze on a
desktop and 3 laptops.
That was my point. Hence "can be a benefit".
> example, talk about vanishing point and the like. I use these features from
> time to time, but not many do.
>
>> I wonder how many people really
>> need some of these things though.
>
> They allow a level of flexibility and choice that is not possible on
> GIMP.
Well, yes. That has been said numerous times and hence I said "all extra
things can be a benefit" ie to someone, but not all.
>
>> But yes if they really need them or the work effort to reproduce similar end
>> products in Gimp is too high then splash out on the better product and the
>> better product is obviously Photoshop. Want to see how "active" Gimp is? Pop
>> into #gimp on freenode. Almost always empty bar one or two old timers.
>
> Interesting.
> ...
It does strike me that desktop Linux usage is dropping.
Gimp though, and of course, runs on Windows too.
Snit
AM:
> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>
>> Hadron stated in post ifq8pe$6d5$1...@news.eternal-september.org on 1/2/11 9:23
>> AM:
>>
>> ...
>>>>>> * wi-fi issues
>>>>>
>>>>> Rare these days.
>>>>
>>>> And this was noted in this year's "Linux (Still) Sucks" talks:
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
>>>>
>>>> Of note: you are the only one to look at the claims and say which you think
>>>> are still relevant and which you think are not. And your claims pretty
>>>> closely match up to what was said at the LinuxFest.
>>>
>>> Because I use Debian and pretty much ONLY Debian.
>>
>> With all of the claims that you do not know Linux, in this discussion you
>> are showing you know it as well or better than any of the "advocates" who
>> have posted.
>
> None of the "advocates" really think I dont use it.
Correct. They are lying when they say so - trying to change the topic from
Linux and put you on the defensive. It is a common trolling technique.
Some in CSMA are masters at it (better than the COLA crew).
> Time and time again
> in tech subjects I am right bar a couple of wording quibbles. I dont
> know everything no, but it seems apparent to me that only an idiot would
> think I dont use Linux.
Agreed.
...
...
>>>>> But we agree that Gimp IS good enough for 99% of what people need I
>>>>> think. I think it is anyway.
>>>>
>>>> In the two talks they explain why it would be better to have Photoshop,
>>>> but,
>>>> sure, GIMP works for many things. But even for prosumers, there are a lot
>>>> of features in Photoshop that benefit them greatly that GIMP does not have
>>>> -
>>>> layer sets and smart layers for example. Even things like Free Transform,
>>>> which effects can be done in GIMP but less efficiently, is a benefit to
>>>> users.
>>>
>>> All "extra things" can be a benefit.
>>
>> Well, there are also "extras" which I suspect few people use. I do
>> not, for
>
> That was my point. Hence "can be a benefit".
But I think many are things which would generally be a benefit.
>> example, talk about vanishing point and the like. I use these features from
>> time to time, but not many do.
>>
>>> I wonder how many people really
>>> need some of these things though.
>>
>> They allow a level of flexibility and choice that is not possible on
>> GIMP.
>
> Well, yes. That has been said numerous times and hence I said "all extra
> things can be a benefit" ie to someone, but not all.
Right - but things like layer sets, red eye correction and free transform
would be of benefit to a large percentage of users. Perhaps most.
>>> But yes if they really need them or the work effort to reproduce similar end
>>> products in Gimp is too high then splash out on the better product and the
>>> better product is obviously Photoshop. Want to see how "active" Gimp is?
>>> Pop
>>> into #gimp on freenode. Almost always empty bar one or two old timers.
>>
>> Interesting.
>> ...
>
> It does strike me that desktop Linux usage is dropping.
Not sure about this... though I have seen stats that show its *percentage*
dropping.
> Gimp though, and of course, runs on Windows too.
>
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Juan
> TomB stated in post 201101020...@usenet.drumscum.be on 1/1/11 6:36 PM:
>
>> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>> Juan stated in post 14hrjfojydkj9$.3gy0c4knqh1u$.d...@40tude.net on 1/1/11
>>> 12:58 PM:
>>>
>>>>>> Here is a video that exposes these liars for what they really are.
>>>>>> Zealots who will never admit the truth because sometimes it portrays
>>>>>> Linux in a less than perfect manner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s
>>>>
>>>> Notice the deafening silence in COLA?
>>>
>>> The lack of response does say a lot.
>>
>> This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you
>> guys want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
>>
>> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
>> that - according to him - sucks.
>>
>> All I can say is that:
>> - I don't have issues with dual monitor set-ups
>> - I don't have issues with audio
>> - I don't have issues with wireless (and driver issues are far less
>> common than they used to be)
>> - Kernel modules are handled just fine with DKMS
>> - You *don't* have to compile video software yourself (honestly, what
>> was /that/ all about?)
>> - If you want to use commercial software, go Windows or OSX
>> - You cannot 'manage' the GNU/Linux ecosystem, no matter how much you
>> talk about it
>
> Had another couple of thoughts:
>
> 1) While you and most "advocates" deny having such problems, if you listen
> to the crowd, at least many people there knew exactly what he was talking
> about. Why do you think there is this discrepancy? Why do COLA "advocates",
> in general, have fewer problems with desktop Linux than others - even others
> who are very knowledgeable? I am not saying you or any other specific
> person is lying when you deny such problems, but taken as a whole it just
> seems unlikely.
Because the Linux users in COLA LIE for LIEnux.
It's as simple as that.
It's very much unlike Linux users who are actually interested in
acknowledging Linux's faults and working toward fixing them.
> 2) What about the OO presentation - that looks better when converted to
> PowerPoint and opened there or in Keynote. I am repeatedly told that OO is
> as good for at least basic things as is MS Office, but here is an example
> where even a very basic slideshow almost surely made with OO looks
> unprofessional and poor in OO and better in the alternatives. And OO is a
> major product with massive backing through the years. Such things are - or
> should be - rather embarrassing for the developers and those who speak so
> highly about OO.
Another myth spread by the Linux freetards.
They will never acknowledge such heresy.
Juan
> Op 02-01-11 02:36, TomB schreef:
>
>> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>> Juan stated in post 14hrjfojydkj9$.3gy0c4knqh1u$.d...@40tude.net on 1/1/11
>>> 12:58 PM:
>>>
>>>>>> Here is a video that exposes these liars for what they really are.
>>>>>> Zealots who will never admit the truth because sometimes it portrays
>>>>>> Linux in a less than perfect manner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s
>>>>
>>>> Notice the deafening silence in COLA?
>>>
>>> The lack of response does say a lot.
>>
>> This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you
>> guys want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
>>
>> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
>> that - according to him - sucks.
>>
>> All I can say is that:
>> - I don't have issues with dual monitor set-ups
>> - I don't have issues with audio
>> - I don't have issues with wireless (and driver issues are far less
>> common than they used to be)
>> - Kernel modules are handled just fine with DKMS
>> - You *don't* have to compile video software yourself (honestly, what
>> was /that/ all about?)
>> - If you want to use commercial software, go Windows or OSX
>> - You cannot 'manage' the GNU/Linux ecosystem, no matter how much you
>> talk about it
>
> I'm sorry to say, but it's crystal clear to me that this video is
> nothing but Microsoft Anti-Linux propaganda.
>
> #fail
Looks like Gerhard has fskcd your brains out again Marti.
He keeps forgetting to put them back.
P.S. You've been listening to your hero Roy's paranoia too much
lately because you are starting to believe it.
Snit
AM:
...
I am not going to say any given "advocate" is lying, but the total of their
responses makes it seem quite likely at least some are.
> It's very much unlike Linux users who are actually interested in
> acknowledging Linux's faults and working toward fixing them.
The "advocates" generally fit that description.
>> 2) What about the OO presentation - that looks better when converted to
>> PowerPoint and opened there or in Keynote. I am repeatedly told that OO is
>> as good for at least basic things as is MS Office, but here is an example
>> where even a very basic slideshow almost surely made with OO looks
>> unprofessional and poor in OO and better in the alternatives. And OO is a
>> major product with massive backing through the years. Such things are - or
>> should be - rather embarrassing for the developers and those who speak so
>> highly about OO.
>
> Another myth spread by the Linux freetards.
> They will never acknowledge such heresy.
So far all the "advocates" just snip and ignore this. They have no
explanation why OO would do a poor job even on a simple - very, very simple
- presentation. No images other than the background. No movement. No
transitions. Just slides with text - the most "complex" thing being
bullets.
And it handles it poorly. Why?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Juan
> In message <C944D40C.88923%use...@gallopinginsanity.com>, Snit wrote:
>
>> x.org... thinks like compbiz need to hack it to work.
>
> Other platforms wish they had something like Compiz. The fact is,
> proprietary GUIs have nowhere near that kind of flexibility.
Compiz?
You mean the first thing Linux gurus tell a user with Linux
instability problems to turn off?
Yea sure.
We are all clamoring for Pulseaudio as well.
That's the second thing users with system problems are told to turn
off.
JEDIDIAH
> Time and time again the noob Linux user having difficulties is
> confronted by a so called Linux advocate who will claim "works for
> me".
No.
Time and Time again we see the TROLL confronted with:
"I have EXACTLY THE SAME THING YOU HAVE and don't see any issues".
It's funny when you jokers go so far as to mention a particular motherboard
and one of us just happens to be using it. Boy was that a hoot...
--
...as if the ability to run Cubase ever made or broke a platform.
|||
/ | \
JEDIDIAH
> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>
> As for X.org: Canonical will be moving away from it soon, going with
> Wayland instead. In doing so, they will only cause a bigger split in
> the environment, because there's no way that advanced users will give
> up the advanced functionality of X.org.
Nevermind the "advanced functionality" of X.
I'm not going to give up my much maligned nvidia drivers.
As much as X has been maligned over the years, there really isn't a
better alternative. I certainly don't see the point in ditching it as an
end user. Most of the problems that are attributed to X come down entirely
to marketshare and developers that "can't be bothered" for what they
percieve to be a small number of profitable users.
Wayland is like Mono. No one has ever actually demonstrated or claimed
what the benefit to me the end user is supposed to be.
JEDIDIAH
>
>> "bbgruff" <bbg...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:8o8vae...@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>> Time and time again
>>>
>>> style
>>> and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
>>>
>> Well, go ahead and shoot the messenger, bb, particularly if he deserves it,
>> rationally in terms of practical matters pertaining to its future on the
>> video? I am sure that "flatfish" or "Juan" was not featured in the video,
>> so they or he cannot be blamed for its content.
>
> The COLA gang has behaved exactly as predicted.
...because trolls tend to be trolls and this is COLA.
JEDIDIAH
>
>
> "bbgruff" <bbg...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:8o8vae...@mid.individual.net...
>> On Saturday 01 January 2011 01:12 Juan wrote:
>>
>>> Time and time again
>>
>> Time and time again, we get "new" posters here who seem so similar in
>> style
>> and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
>>
> Well, go ahead and shoot the messenger, bb, particularly if he deserves it,
He's no "messenger". He's just a troll in COLA.
[deletia]
Non-trolls get a considerably different reception.
Juan
> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>
>> TomB stated in post 201101020...@usenet.drumscum.be on 1/1/11 6:36 PM:
>>
>>> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>>> Juan stated in post 14hrjfojydkj9$.3gy0c4knqh1u$.d...@40tude.net on 1/1/11
>>>> 12:58 PM:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is a video that exposes these liars for what they really are.
>>>>>>> Zealots who will never admit the truth because sometimes it portrays
>>>>>>> Linux in a less than perfect manner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s
>>>>>
>>>>> Notice the deafening silence in COLA?
>>>>
>>>> The lack of response does say a lot.
>>>
>>> This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you
>>> guys want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
>>
>> First time I have seen it.
>>
>>> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
>>> that - according to him - sucks.
>>
>> Well, he makes it clear that he just means in certain areas. Right at the
>> start he notes:
>>
>> -----
>> € We all like Linux.
>> € Linux is great.
>> - It's fast.
>> - It's customizable.
>> - It's stable.
>> - It's open.
>> - It's, generally, pretty bad-ass.
>
> Hence I wonder if TomB is related to Creepy Chris. Did he even WATCH the
> video?
Freetards of a feather.....each try to get the other person to pay
for the movie :)
Of course they didn't watch the video.
It's far too painful for them to deal with.
The truth cuts hard.
They prefer to accuse it of being a huge Microsoft conspiracy.
It's the COLA method of Linux "advocacy".
> Does he really think these people made the issues up?
It's easier for them to deal with it like that.
Sort of like telling kids when their pet dies it's in heaven with
all the other animals.
> Does he really think his wonder PC that has NONE of the issues listed is
> typical?
He does.
> Hell, even Ahlstrom admitted to nvidia issues and grub2 mbr issues.
Yea.
In a half assed post filled with smiley faces so he doesn't offend
the rest of the Mafia.
> TomB is, sorry, telling lies again. I don't believe he NEVER has any of
> these issues since my experience (which is considerably more extensive
> than his) tells me these issues are there. As do ALL the forums.
Of course they are real.
Most of them have been issues for years.
Oh well, maybe the next version of Ubuntu will have a spinning
pyramid instead of a cube.
Who need bugs fixed when you can have that!
Hadron
> Hadron stated in post ifq9sj$6d5$3...@news.eternal-september.org on 1/2/11 9:41
> AM:
>
>
> Right - but things like layer sets, red eye correction and free transform
> would be of benefit to a large percentage of users. Perhaps most.
Gimp has red eye plugins afaik.
Describe layer sets. Ability to group sets of layers and switch them on
and off? And "free transform" is what?
>
>>>> But yes if they really need them or the work effort to reproduce similar end
>>>> products in Gimp is too high then splash out on the better product and the
>>>> better product is obviously Photoshop. Want to see how "active" Gimp is?
>>>> Pop
>>>> into #gimp on freenode. Almost always empty bar one or two old timers.
>>>
>>> Interesting.
>>> ...
>>
>> It does strike me that desktop Linux usage is dropping.
>
> Not sure about this... though I have seen stats that show its *percentage*
> dropping.
Yes, thats what I meant. Sorry.
Juan
Good catch on the conversion.
Exactly the reason I wouldn't bet my resume on OpenOffice because
when the other person opens it, most like under MSOffice, and it
looks like crap, there goes the job offer as they move to the next
one.
Juan
> "Ron House" <rho...@smartchat.net.au> schreef in bericht
> news:4D1FC45B...@smartchat.net.au...
>> On 02/01/11 01:58, Hadron wrote:
>>> bbgruff<bbg...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday 01 January 2011 01:12 Juan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Time and time again
>>>>
>>>> Time and time again, we get "new" posters here who seem so similar in
>>>> style
>>>> and content to a Failed Troll called flatfish....
>>>
>>> You replied so he didnt't fail. Oops! BBgruff fails again!
>>
>> You just claimed his reply to the new poster somehow disproved his claim
>> that flatfish was a failed troll. That logic only holds good if the "new"
>> poster is the same person as flatfish. You just admitted they are the same
>> person.
>>
>> --
>> Ron House
>> Building Peace: http://peacelegacy.org
>> Australian Birds: http://wingedhearts.org
>> Principle of Goodness academic site: http://principleofgoodness.net
>
> Why do you post here?
> You preach "Peace Legacy will focus on practical application of the
> Principle of Goodness to anything and everything that can help build a
> peaceful world"
>
> Wrong group for you, read and learn about your fellow advocates:
>
> Doug Mentohl: "Fuck off, get aids, get cancer, die a slow painfull death, in
> fact let your whole genetic line become extinct ... "
> Doug Mentohl: "When are you going to get cancer and die. Hopfully before
> your jizz infects any unfortunate female you rohypnoled on one of your
> 'dates' .. "
> Doug Mentohl: "Fuck off, get cancer and die a long and painfull death."
> Doug Mentohl: "fuck Tim Smith the Usenet, Digg and Slashdot stalker .."
> Doug Mentohl: "What the fuck are you on about you ignorant CUNT"
But Chris Ahlstrom claims Doug Mentohl is a great Linux advocate?
Snit
10:10 AM:
>>> Hell, even Ahlstrom admitted to nvidia issues and grub2 mbr issues.
>>>
>>> TomB is, sorry, telling lies again. I don't believe he NEVER has any of
>>> these issues since my experience (which is considerably more extensive
>>> than his) tells me these issues are there. As do ALL the forums.
>>
>> None of the "advocates" have the problems the folks at LinuxFest say they
>> commonly see. And none can explain why the OO presentation looks better in
>> PowerPoint and Keynote after *nothing* but being converted. It is quite
>> telling.
>
> Good catch on the conversion.
I downloaded the slides and just could not understand why they looked so
poor. Here is an example - saved as images and then converted to PDF:
<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/slides.pdf>
OpenOffice puts banding on the image and the bullet text is not lined up
well.
> Exactly the reason I wouldn't bet my resume on OpenOffice because
> when the other person opens it, most like under MSOffice, and it
> looks like crap, there goes the job offer as they move to the next
> one.
True... but here even with a presentation almost surely made in OO, even
that looks better in the alternatives. It is just mind boggling.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
amicus_curious
"JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrnii1bl...@nomad.mishnet...
Snit
10:09 AM:
> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>
>> Hadron stated in post ifq9sj$6d5$3...@news.eternal-september.org on 1/2/11 9:41
>> AM:
>>
>>
>> Right - but things like layer sets, red eye correction and free transform
>> would be of benefit to a large percentage of users. Perhaps most.
>
> Gimp has red eye plugins afaik.
Even if it does, it is not integrated and "right there". Still, good if it
does.
> Describe layer sets. Ability to group sets of layers and switch them on
> and off? And "free transform" is what?
Layer sets let you make "folders" in the layer pallet and then group layers.
Not only can you move them as groups and turn them on and off, you can also
have masks (layer and vector masks). You can change the opacity of the
layer group and set blending modes for the set. You can also do basic
things like move and transform and the like with the whole set. You can
also have adjustment layers (something else GIMP lacks) and set them to
affect just the layer group or all layers below. You can even nest layer
groups.
Groups come in very handy for web design work where you want to have, say,
your header in one set, your navigation in another, etc. This is also true
of photo-manipulations where you might be color correcting the background
differently than the subject or whatever.
Most of the layer options exist not just in Photoshop but in Photoshop
Elements - they really are very commonly used and very powerful.
>>
>>>>> But yes if they really need them or the work effort to reproduce similar
>>>>> end
>>>>> products in Gimp is too high then splash out on the better product and the
>>>>> better product is obviously Photoshop. Want to see how "active" Gimp is?
>>>>> Pop
>>>>> into #gimp on freenode. Almost always empty bar one or two old timers.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting.
>>>> ...
>>>
>>> It does strike me that desktop Linux usage is dropping.
>>
>> Not sure about this... though I have seen stats that show its *percentage*
>> dropping.
>
> Yes, thats what I meant. Sorry.
No problem. I mean *liar*! :)
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Hadron
No. I dont think even Creepy Chris sank that low. Did he??!?!?!????
Snit
AM:
> On 2011-01-02, TomB <tommy.b...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>> TomB stated in post 201101020...@usenet.drumscum.be on 1/1/11 6:36 PM:
> [deletia]
>>
>> As for X.org: Canonical will be moving away from it soon, going with
>> Wayland instead. In doing so, they will only cause a bigger split in
>> the environment, because there's no way that advanced users will give
>> up the advanced functionality of X.org.
>
> Nevermind the "advanced functionality" of X.
>
> I'm not going to give up my much maligned nvidia drivers.
>
> As much as X has been maligned over the years, there really isn't a
> better alternative.
OS X. :)
> I certainly don't see the point in ditching it as an
> end user. Most of the problems that are attributed to X come down entirely
> to marketshare and developers that "can't be bothered" for what they
> percieve to be a small number of profitable users.
>
> Wayland is like Mono. No one has ever actually demonstrated or claimed
> what the benefit to me the end user is supposed to be.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
TomB
>
Portability.
> Where are his resolution settings
> btw?
--auto Just Works™
--
To alcohol, the cause of and solution to all of life's
problems.
~ Homer J. Simpson
TomB
>>>>
>>>> * multimonitor support
>>>
>>> Totally hosed now unless you take a degree in things with funny
>>> names like, err, xrandr ...
>>
>> Bollocks. I'm not saying there are no issues at all, but they sure
>> aren't the norm.
>>
>> On my Acer laptop I have the following little script in my
>> .xsession file:
>>
>> % cat $HOME/bin/dual
>>
>> #!/bin/sh
>> /usr/bin/xrandr --output LVDS1 --auto
>> /usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --auto
>> /usr/bin/xrandr --output VGA1 --right-of LVDS1
>>
>> Just Works
>>
>> And on my Dell laptop (running Ubuntu 10.04) the dual monitor
>> settings are handled just fine with the Gnome settings tool
>> (nouveau driver) or the nvidia set-up program (proprietary nvidia
>> driver).
>
> Can you explain why the folks at LinuxFest apparently feel
> differently?
No. I just can talk about my own experience, and my own experience is
largely positive. I'm sorry if you don't believe me, but that's how it
is.
>>>> * updates killing nvidia drivers... lengthy process to fix every
>>>> time
>>>
>>> Not every time. Things have improved a lot. A year or so ago it
>>> was a nightmare. Ask Chris Ahlstrom. He will lie and say it works
>>> for him no doubt but links are there ...
>>
>> Since DKMS driver updates are a no-brainer, unless you use stuff
>> that isn't provided by the distro.
>>
>>>> * driver model flawed * slides were lousy to work with * audio
>>>> problems
>>>
>>> My laptop running Debian Squeeze now makes NO sound after a
>>> hibernate and wake up. Alsa restart doesnt fix it.
>>
>> One does not 'restart' alsa.
>>
>>>> * wi-fi issues
>>>
>>> Rare these days.
>>
>> Damn right, although there still are some driver issues with some
>> hardware.
>
> The improvement here is discussed in this year's "Why Linux (Still)
> Sucks"
> seminar. <http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
Will watch this later. No time right now.
>>>> * updates that break core functionality * lack of software for
>>>> tasks
>>>>
>>>> different frameworks... fragmentation. duplicated effort.
>>>> duplicate apis.
>>>
>>> a big problem.
>>
>> It's the other side of the coin. F/OSS is completely open, and
>> therefor anyone can do whatever they like with it, often in
>> opposite directions.
>>
>> You like Debian, right? Well, imagine what would happen if the
>> GNU/Linux culling commitee scrapped APT in favor of RMP.
>
> What "culling committee"? Nobody is advocating that, at least not
> in this thread. You complain when Hadron misrepresents people's
> views, but that is what you are claiming here.
I'm commenting on what's being said in the video, eg. a single audio
subsystem, a single package format...
Even if they just mean the 'major' distros, I - and many others with
me - would not like this a single bit. I want APT, not RPM. I don't
want gstreamer, I just want ALSA.
>> Then scrapped all window managers in favor of compiz. Then scrapped
>> all desktop environments in favor of Gnome. GUI toolkit? Use GTK2 -
>> dump Qt. And also scrapped all audio subsystems in favor of
>> gstreamer. And finally scrapped X.org in favor of Wayland. From
>> that point on all GNU/Linux distros have to use said set of
>> systems.
>>
>> The result: you will no longer be able to use GNU/Linux the way
>> /you/ like best. Same for me.
>
> I do not think anyone is saying people cannot use it the way they
> like.
Sure. It's right there in the video. If all major distros (and this
would include Debian) started using RPM, I would no longer be able to
use APT. It would suck big time.
--
Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes...
~ Frank Drebin
Richard Rasker
> Richard Rasker <spam...@linetec.nl> writes:
>
>> Juan wrote:
>>
>>> Time and time again the noob Linux user having difficulties is
>>> confronted by a so called Linux advocate who will claim "works for
>>> me".
>>
>> OK, then you should have no trouble producing a copious amount of
>> examples of such postings from Linux advocates. Trouble is, I can hardly
>> find any. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but if I search
>> for the
>
> Or you're an idiot.
>
> Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that the COLA "advocates" don't shrill that
> it works for them?
I'm afraid you didn't quite read or understand the OP's posting, and thus
misinterpreted my reply. Please allow me to repeat it in my own words.
Flat^H^H^H^H^H"Juan" literally claims that newbies who encounter problems
and ask for help, more often than not get responses like "it works for me",
without any actual help. And this is most definitely not the case.
Sure, Linux works for those who use it and find little or no problems --
just like Windows works for a lot of people. In fact, "Linux works" for 99%
of computer users, because in virtually every household, at least one Linux
kernel is running, mostly without a hitch. But that is not the point here.
Richard Rasker
--
http://www.linetec.nl
Chris Ahlstrom
> Hadron wrote:
>
>> Richard Rasker <spam...@linetec.nl> writes:
>>
>>> Juan wrote:
>>>
>>>> Time and time again the noob Linux user having difficulties is
>>>> confronted by a so called Linux advocate who will claim "works for
>>>> me".
>>>
>>> OK, then you should have no trouble producing a copious amount of
>>> examples of such postings from Linux advocates. Trouble is, I can hardly
>>> find any. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but if I search
>>> for the
>>
>> Or you're an idiot.
>>
>> Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that the COLA "advocates" don't shrill that
>> it works for them?
They don't. "Hadron" is, as usual, lying.
> I'm afraid you didn't quite read or understand the OP's posting, and thus
> misinterpreted my reply. Please allow me to repeat it in my own words.
>
> Flat^H^H^H^H^H"Juan" literally claims that newbies who encounter problems
> and ask for help, more often than not get responses like "it works for me",
> without any actual help. And this is most definitely not the case.
>
> Sure, Linux works for those who use it and find little or no problems --
> just like Windows works for a lot of people. In fact, "Linux works" for 99%
> of computer users, because in virtually every household, at least one Linux
> kernel is running, mostly without a hitch. But that is not the point here.
Anyone who claims to never have a problem with Linux or Windows is either
hiding something or very lucky (add a second very for a Windows user).
--
Wedding, n:
A ceremony at which two persons undertake to become one, one undertakes
to become nothing and nothing undertakes to become supportable.
-- Ambrose Bierce
Chris Ahlstrom
> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:
>>
>> I'm interested why he's using sh too.
>
> Portability.
A script that just calls applications can use pretty much any shell,
including sh.
Funny how "Hadron" does not seem to realize that.
>> Where are his resolution settings
>> btw?
>
> --auto Just Works???
--
Remember, drive defensively! And of course, the best defense is a good offense!
Steel
> a) Lots of reasons, endlessly discussed.
> b) Nothing.
c) You are nobody and you have a lot of lip-services.
<yawn>
See ya I wouldn't want to be ya.
bye
Snit
AM:
...
>>> And on my Dell laptop (running Ubuntu 10.04) the dual monitor
>>> settings are handled just fine with the Gnome settings tool
>>> (nouveau driver) or the nvidia set-up program (proprietary nvidia
>>> driver).
>>
>> Can you explain why the folks at LinuxFest apparently feel
>> differently?
>
> No. I just can talk about my own experience, and my own experience is
> largely positive. I'm sorry if you don't believe me, but that's how it
> is.
I have repeatedly said I do not think you are lying. But it does seem odd
that not only is your experience different than the norm, but all COLA Linux
"advocates" have a better-than-norm experience. And that is compared to
others who use Linux - it is not as though the conference is for newbies.
I am curious how you might explain this.
...
>>> Damn right, although there still are some driver issues with some hardware.
>>>
>> The improvement here is discussed in this year's "Why Linux (Still) Sucks"
>> seminar. <http://www.jupiterbroadcasting.com/?p=1886>
>>
> Will watch this later. No time right now.
Watch you run! (Just kidding - it is fairly lengthy). I would be
interested in your thoughts when you see it.
I find it interesting that many of the things I have said are parroted at
the LinuxFest... things such as how Ubuntu's old look was horrid to how
there would be benefit to standardization of some things (as there is with,
say, TCP/IP). Nothing is stopping developers from using other technologies,
but the fact almost all have standardized on TCP/IP is a clear benefit to
the community - even if other technologies have benefits over TCP/IP.
...
>>> You like Debian, right? Well, imagine what would happen if the
>>> GNU/Linux culling commitee scrapped APT in favor of RMP.
>>
>> What "culling committee"? Nobody is advocating that, at least not
>> in this thread. You complain when Hadron misrepresents people's
>> views, but that is what you are claiming here.
>
> I'm commenting on what's being said in the video, eg. a single audio
> subsystem, a single package format...
Who is the culling committee that forced all distros to use TCP/IP? None.
Nobody is suggesting any such committee.
> Even if they just mean the 'major' distros, I - and many others with
> me - would not like this a single bit. I want APT, not RPM. I don't
> want gstreamer, I just want ALSA.
And I might want AppleTalk. Nothing wrong with that. But there are
benefits to migrating to the "norm".
>>> Then scrapped all window managers in favor of compiz. Then scrapped
>>> all desktop environments in favor of Gnome. GUI toolkit? Use GTK2 -
>>> dump Qt. And also scrapped all audio subsystems in favor of
>>> gstreamer. And finally scrapped X.org in favor of Wayland. From
>>> that point on all GNU/Linux distros have to use said set of
>>> systems.
>>>
>>> The result: you will no longer be able to use GNU/Linux the way
>>> /you/ like best. Same for me.
>>
>> I do not think anyone is saying people cannot use it the way they
>> like.
>
> Sure. It's right there in the video. If all major distros (and this
> would include Debian) started using RPM, I would no longer be able to
> use APT. It would suck big time.
You could make your own repository. Just as I could make my own AppleTalk
network (well, assuming the protocol was open, I do not think it is).
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
1/2/11 12:01 PM:
> Richard Rasker pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> Hadron wrote:
>>
>>> Richard Rasker <spam...@linetec.nl> writes:
>>>
>>>> Juan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Time and time again the noob Linux user having difficulties is
>>>>> confronted by a so called Linux advocate who will claim "works for
>>>>> me".
>>>>
>>>> OK, then you should have no trouble producing a copious amount of
>>>> examples of such postings from Linux advocates. Trouble is, I can hardly
>>>> find any. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but if I search
>>>> for the
>>>
>>> Or you're an idiot.
>>>
>>> Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that the COLA "advocates" don't shrill that
>>> it works for them?
>
> They don't. "Hadron" is, as usual, lying.
Then explain why the norm of LinuxFest is not the norm in COLA for the
"advocates". And explain why the OO presentation looks better once
converted and opened in PowerPoint or Keynote?
But you will not. You will run from these questions... they do not fit the
narrative you want to push. The *facts* do not fit your claims.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
TomB
> TomB pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:
>>>
>>> I'm interested why he's using sh too.
>>
>> Portability.
>
> A script that just calls applications can use pretty much any shell,
> including sh.
>
> Funny how "Hadron" does not seem to realize that.
That's not the point at all. The point is that /bin/sh is available on
pretty much any *nix, even if it is merely a symlink to the default
system shell. On Debian Squeeze this is /bin/dash by default.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
~ Albert Einstein
Hadron
As is theirs.. "largely positive". That is no 100%. Only YOU seem to
think pretending 100% is cool.
Can you read? Can you watch a video and understand what is
happening. Lets try and explain it to you:-
They were there to DISCUSS ISSUES. You denying them doesnt make them
vanish.
Why not grow up and stop talking such a load of codswallop. Linux doesnt
need you saying it "works for me". No one cares. It (the things
discussed) DOESNT work for them and THEY know a whole lot more than you.
Juan
He can also explain why the Linux help groups are teeming with
people complaining about the very same items in the video.
And have been doing so for years.
I'd love to see idiots like Ahlstrom, Poaster and the gang waltz
into the Ubuntu forum after a new release and claim "it works for
me" and see what happens.
Hadron
> Richard Rasker pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> Hadron wrote:
>>
>>> Richard Rasker <spam...@linetec.nl> writes:
>>>
>>>> Juan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Time and time again the noob Linux user having difficulties is
>>>>> confronted by a so called Linux advocate who will claim "works for
>>>>> me".
>>>>
>>>> OK, then you should have no trouble producing a copious amount of
>>>> examples of such postings from Linux advocates. Trouble is, I can hardly
>>>> find any. Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but if I search
>>>> for the
>>>
>>> Or you're an idiot.
>>>
>>> Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that the COLA "advocates" don't shrill that
>>> it works for them?
>
> They don't. "Hadron" is, as usual, lying.
It is SO easily disproved. You really are a lame arshole Ahlstrom. Right
NOW TomB and YOU are doing just that.
Seriously, have you NO idea how stupid you are making yourself look? You
have had your lies and showing off painstakingly shown to you and you
STILL try and rewrite history!
I suggest you take a break and read your mealy mouthed, sycophantic and
hypocritical posts to this group. You might get quite the shock.
Snit
PM:
Well, to some extent that is because people with problems go to such
groups... so the problems will be over represented.
> And have been doing so for years.
>
> I'd love to see idiots like Ahlstrom, Poaster and the gang waltz
> into the Ubuntu forum after a new release and claim "it works for
> me" and see what happens.
It would be amusing to see them spread their views.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Hadron
Chris is not interested in facts presented outside of COLA. He is a
weenie. I am astonished that he is so willing to post under what he
claims is his real name while posting the nonsense he does. Calling 7
and intelligent and insightful poster? I mean. Really. As for calling
people who contribute to OSS "fuckheads", well ... It could ALMOST be ok
if he wasnt a closed source Windows programmer who actively boasts about
his Windows related income in this very group. Does he have NO self
respect or is he merely trolling everyone? His recent lies about you left
me quite astonished : that someone could openly post libellous lies
about another person on a publicly accessible medium such as usenet.
Juan
If that's his real name, his family must be mortified.
An Old Friend
> Chris Ahlstrom stated in post ifpt36$21t$4...@news.eternal-september.org on
> 1/2/11 6:05 AM:
>
>> TomB pulled this Usenet face plant:
>>
>>> On 2011-01-02, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>>>
>>>> The lack of response does say a lot.
>>
>> Yes, it says that Snit and "Juan" are such odious posters that most
>> people have them kill-filed, so we don't have to read their inane
>> drivel.
>>
>>> This video has been discussed in c.o.l.a. many times before. If you
>>> guys want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
>>>
>>> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
>>> that - according to him - sucks.
>>>
>>> All I can say is that:
>>> - I don't have issues with dual monitor set-ups
>>
>> Funny:
>>
>>
>> http://www.online-tech-tips.com/windows-7/how-to-setup-dual-monitors-
in-window
>> s-7/
>>
>> Windows 7 has some neat little enhancements, one of them being how
>> it lets you handle dual monitors. If you're adding a second monitor
>> to your Windows 7 home or office PC, which is a very good idea, it's
>> a breeze to configure.
>>
>> After the short explanation, follows 38 posts, roughly half of which
>> are people complaining about problems getting dual monitors to work on
>> their systems.
>>
>> Hmmm:
>>
>> Yeah, seriously, I heard about this new great Windows 7 OS, and how
>> easy and nice it was, and I stuck with Linux. Why? Because 90% of
>> the shit you can NOW do on Windows 7, you could do probably 5 or
>> more years ago on Linux/Gnome. Compiz even makes it better.
>>
>> Microsoft: Hey! Wait for us! We're the leaders!
>
> As I have noted: the "advocates" will all claim to magically never run
> into the problems which are noted as being common among the LinuxFest
> folks. Now will they explain why the OO presentation looks better when
> converted to a PowerPoint file and opened there or in Keynote.
It's not just a one-way in that regard: sometimes a PowerPoint file looks
better in OpenOffice than Powerpoint.
I'll try to send you some screenshots from a Powerpoint I got from the
college that looks better in OpenOffice than Microsoft Powerpoint Viewer.
Snit
1/2/11 2:31 PM:
...
>>> Windows 7 has some neat little enhancements, one of them being how
>>> it lets you handle dual monitors. If you're adding a second monitor
>>> to your Windows 7 home or office PC, which is a very good idea, it's
>>> a breeze to configure.
>>>
>>> After the short explanation, follows 38 posts, roughly half of which
>>> are people complaining about problems getting dual monitors to work on
>>> their systems.
>>>
>>> Hmmm:
>>>
>>> Yeah, seriously, I heard about this new great Windows 7 OS, and how
>>> easy and nice it was, and I stuck with Linux. Why? Because 90% of
>>> the shit you can NOW do on Windows 7, you could do probably 5 or
>>> more years ago on Linux/Gnome. Compiz even makes it better.
>>>
>>> Microsoft: Hey! Wait for us! We're the leaders!
>>
>> As I have noted: the "advocates" will all claim to magically never run
>> into the problems which are noted as being common among the LinuxFest
>> folks. Now will they explain why the OO presentation looks better when
>> converted to a PowerPoint file and opened there or in Keynote.
>
> It's not just a one-way in that regard: sometimes a PowerPoint file looks
> better in OpenOffice than Powerpoint.
Do you have an example?
> I'll try to send you some screenshots from a Powerpoint I got from the
> college that looks better in OpenOffice than Microsoft Powerpoint Viewer.
Excellent... would love the file itself, too.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Hadron
>
> It's not just a one-way in that regard: sometimes a PowerPoint file looks
> better in OpenOffice than Powerpoint.
Can you define "better"? You mean there is a bug in the PP one that OO
doesnt fail on?
>
> I'll try to send you some screenshots from a Powerpoint I got from the
> college that looks better in OpenOffice than Microsoft Powerpoint
> Viewer.
I would be interested to see this too.
Not that one sample means much but its a start.
An Old Friend
Just sent them :)
TomB
> TomB <tommy.b...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> No. I just can talk about my own experience, and my own experience is
>> largely positive. I'm sorry if you don't believe me, but that's how it
>> is.
>
> As is theirs.. "largely positive". That is no 100%. Only YOU seem to
> think pretending 100% is cool.
I do not pretend that GNU/Linux is 100% perfect. You're making stuff
up again.
My experience with GNU/Linux is largely positive, and most certainly a
lot better than with Windows. Do I have issues? Sure I do. I have even
talked about some in this group.
I've talked about my US Robotics wifi USB dongle that didn't work
properly.
I've talked about the NIC in my Acer 7740 causing me grief.
I've talked about my Lexmark X74 printer that isn't supported on
GNU/Linux.
I've talked about a problem I had with recordmydesktop.
I've talked about samba crapping out on me.
And so on. No OS is perfect, and the above issues were not nice to
deal with, but GNU/Linux gives me way less grief than Windows, while
offering me /a lot/ more of functionality, stability and security.
That's how /I/ feel about it, and I don't give a hoot if you disagree.
--
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
Juan
> I do not pretend that GNU/Linux is 100% perfect. You're making stuff
> up again.
>
> My experience with GNU/Linux is largely positive, and most certainly a
> lot better than with Windows. Do I have issues? Sure I do. I have even
> talked about some in this group.
>
> I've talked about my US Robotics wifi USB dongle that didn't work
> properly.
>
> I've talked about the NIC in my Acer 7740 causing me grief.
>
> I've talked about my Lexmark X74 printer that isn't supported on
> GNU/Linux.
>
> I've talked about a problem I had with recordmydesktop.
>
> I've talked about samba crapping out on me.
>
> And so on. No OS is perfect, and the above issues were not nice to
> deal with, but GNU/Linux gives me way less grief than Windows, while
> offering me /a lot/ more of functionality, stability and security.
>
> That's how /I/ feel about it, and I don't give a hoot if you disagree.
Fair enough.
I'll take your word for it.
JEDIDIAH
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 10:24:06 +0100, Hadron wrote:
>
>> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>>
>>>>> Juan stated in post 14hrjfojydkj9$.3gy0c4knqh1u$.d...@40tude.net on 1/1/11
>>>>> 12:58 PM:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is a video that exposes these liars for what they really are.
>>>>>>>> Zealots who will never admit the truth because sometimes it portrays
>>>>>>>> Linux in a less than perfect manner.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoYL4R3Te2s
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notice the deafening silence in COLA?
>>>>>
>>>>> The lack of response does say a lot.
>>>>
>>>> guys want to discuss it over and over again, feel free to do so.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I only don't understand why this guy wants to use an operating system
>>>> that - according to him - sucks.
>>>
>>> start he notes:
>>>
>>> -----
>>> € We all like Linux.
>>> € Linux is great.
>>> - It's fast.
>>> - It's customizable.
>>> - It's stable.
>>> - It's open.
>>> - It's, generally, pretty bad-ass.
>>
>> Hence I wonder if TomB is related to Creepy Chris. Did he even WATCH the
>> video?
>
> Freetards of a feather.....each try to get the other person to pay
> for the movie :)
>
> Of course they didn't watch the video.
> It's far too painful for them to deal with.
If you can't at least summarize the external link, then no one should
bother paying attention to it.
My newsreader is just that: a newsreader.
JEDIDIAH
>> TomB stated in post 201101021...@usenet.drumscum.be on 1/2/11 3:47 AM:
>>
>>> The result: you will no longer be able to use GNU/Linux the way
>>> /you/ like best. Same for me.
>>
>> I do not think anyone is saying people cannot use it the way they
>> like.
>
> Sure. It's right there in the video. If all major distros (and this
> would include Debian) started using RPM, I would no longer be able to
> use APT. It would suck big time.
>
I defected from Mandrake because I got tired of RPM and wanted to use
apt. The descriptions of it seemed really compelling and it sounded like
a distinct improvement over what Mandrake had at the time.
These Politburo types would rob me of that option.
JEDIDIAH
> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>
>> List of problems:
>>
>> * multimonitor support
>
> Totally hosed now unless you take a degree in things with funny names
> like, err, xrandr ...
>
>
> Not every time. Things have improved a lot. A year or so ago it was a
> nightmare. Ask Chris Ahlstrom. He will lie and say it works for him no
No it wasn't.
Stuff like this was probably outdated when it was presented.
[deletia]
Perhaps you should not specifically go out of your way to avoid the
distributions that fix stuff like this and have it all seamlessly
integrated into the desktop experience.
This is why you've got the "works for me" chorus. We aren't TRYING
to make it fail. We actually use it and want it to work. We have nothing
invested in it being broken.
JEDIDIAH
> In message <ifpfqu$v55$3...@news.eternal-september.org>, Hadron wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> writes:
>>
>>> In message <C944D40C.88923%use...@gallopinginsanity.com>, Snit wrote:
>>>
>>>> x.org... thinks like compbiz need to hack it to work.
>>>
>>> Other platforms wish they had something like Compiz. The fact is,
>>> proprietary GUIs have nowhere near that kind of flexibility.
>>
>> What flexibility are you referring to?
>
> Modularity, as in having different pieces of software plug together and work
> reliably. A common characteristic of Free Software, where different groups
> tend to cooperate, rather than see each other as rivals.
...or alternatively not "being bothered" when the young kids decide
to all drive off the same cliff together. Instead of being forced along
in the Microsoft/Apple style, you can choose the degree of "spiff" you
subject yourself to.
Much more diversity is tolerated.
JEDIDIAH
>
>> Juan wrote:
>>
>>> Time and time again the noob Linux user having difficulties is
>>> confronted by a so called Linux advocate who will claim "works for
>>> me".
>>
>> OK, then you should have no trouble producing a copious amount of examples
>> of such postings from Linux advocates. Trouble is, I can hardly find any.
>> Perhaps I'm not looking in the right places, but if I search for the
>
> Or you're an idiot.
>
> Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that the COLA "advocates" don't shrill that
> it works for them?
Trolls in COLA are liars.
Calling BS on a troll in COLA is by no stretch of the imagination the
same as denying the experiences of genuine n00bs.