Mark Lane - (#432) - Cowards All Around This Forum!

[Ben Holmes]

In the last few paragraphs, Mark Lane showed how hard it would have
been to prove that Oswald was not an FBI informant - even though they
never even tried...

"The Commission adjudicated that there was 'nothing to support the
speculation that Oswald was an agent, employee, or informant of the
FBI', citing as its basis the testimony of Hoover, his assistant and
three FBI agents. In addition, the Commission referred to some
affidavits signed by various other FBI agents, including Shanklin. The
Commission said that the affidavits all 'declared, in substance, that
Oswald was not an informant or agent of the FBI, that he did not act
in any other capacity for the FBI, and that no attempt was made to
recruit him in any capacity'.

An examination of the affidavit submitted by Shanklin, who had been in
charge of the Dallas office of the FBI since April 1963, shows it to
be deficient in the very areas in which the Commission argued that it
was most consummate. The affidavit does not find Shanklin swearing
that Oswald was not an informant, not an agent, not associated with
the FBI; neither does it state that the FBI did not use Oswald's
services in any other capacity; nor does it state that no attempt was
made by the FBI to recruit him in any capacity. The affidavit merely
records the fact that Shanklin did not authorize or make 'any payment
to Lee Harvey Oswald for information furnished or for any other
purpose' and that in the files of the Dallas FBI 'there is no record
of any payment ever having beeen made or authorized for Lee Harvey
Oswald'.

Rankin had suggested to the Commissioners that Shanklin, 'the Special
Agent in charge of the area', be called as a witness; but Shanklin,
like Hudkins, was not questioned by the Commission or by counsel."

Mark Lane is now pointing out more in the way of the Warren
Commission's lack of investigation.

And believers, EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM - are frightened by Mark Lane's
pointing out of these facts.

Huckster can't explain it.

Chickenshit can't explain it.

Chuckles can't explain it.

Gerry can't explain it.

Corbutt can't explain it.

Steven can't explain it.

Cowards... every last one of you!!!

[John Corbett]

Benny can't provide a scenario of the assassination even though he's falsely
claimed countless times that he has.

[Ben Holmes]

Logical fallacy deleted.

Deleted post added back in.

Corbutt has merely proved me right ... yet again!

[John Corbett]

You promised that if any of us presented our scenario of the assassination, you
would reply with one of your own of equal length and detail. I kept my part of the
bargain. You welched. Until you present your scenario as you promised, we have
nothing to talk about.

[Ben Holmes]

On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 09:28:29 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Already done.

The Challenge - Part 1
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/x4n7Di-GBd8/_WbEfALeAAAJ
The Challenge - Part 2
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/WVBtmUQkx6c/9ZdyxAPeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 1
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/y0hdkKgWvtI/3uukYgXeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 2
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/jSfe1BrGfJc/SOXAOQbeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 2a
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/kGfZPR4C-Lw/AlnRq1HeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 3
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/IShoUFao5OU/VuYGWFTeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 3a
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/JFuasrnWRqA/l1vih03eAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 4
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/LRMeWBFE1ug/bfjGTAbeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 5
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/S1ddVKc3Jj4/IESJbFPeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 6
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/b5ODl3yA4uk/g77N-UreAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 7
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/rwmZjz92YC8/P-9Mn07eAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 8
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c6e29olW6XA/Os29-FveAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 9
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/ixNqGISHbrU/gd06wVHeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 10
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/3Di6kuseb2Q/aHbAQmLeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 11
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/sYEyPH0A_eI/IH-UZgbeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 11a
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/aGduj6uaGUk/3eDp513eAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 11b
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/8rAmKZBOCiY/yCELq27eAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 12
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/OnrH5R6ryHE/stjdfgbeAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 12a
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/J0A8N12PPHU/CcxpiU7eAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 13
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/8hD-q0gTa_c/Co3ZJE7eAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 14
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/lsaXwhPRbEg/hZ7ZmEveAAAJ
My Scenario - Part 15
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/UA86YdJXEgY/JhG8o0reAAAJ
My Scenario - The Conclusion
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.conspiracy.jfk/UWfco_sGxYw/yApSPFXeAAAJ


And done again:

******************************************************************

I've stated, time and time again, that I can match, in both length,
detail, and number of citations - any "scenario" given by a believer.
I've twice before done this... and here now is the third time I've
done so.

Notice that it's LONGER than Corbutt's, it's easily just as detailed,
and although no cites were needed, as Corbutt provided none, any
researcher knows the cites that support this scenario.


>Early in the week, Oswald learned that JFK's motorcade would be passing by the TSBD.


The plan to assassinate JFK began earlier in the year, and several
earlier attempts were made ... Chicago, and Tampa. They all had the
same scenario in mind, a rifle from a high location, and a suspect
that could be easily framed.


>For reasons known only to him, he decided he would take advantage of this and kill JFK.


The planners knew that they could control the investigation, and would
never be subject to arrest. The reasons are numerous - JFK made
enemies of too many powerful people. Threatening to disband the CIA
was simply one of the many reasons. He was considered a traitor for
installing a hotline to the Kremlin. Ironically, his successor, LBJ ,
was the first to actually use it.

The planners were mid-level CIA employees, with help from a few Secred
Service members. They selected a patsy for the crime, someone they
could control.

According to former CIA finance officer James B. Wilcott’s testimony
before the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), Lee Harvey
Oswald “was a regular employee, receiving a full-time salary for agent
work, for doing CIA operational work.”

He was watched and controlled by his supervisor, William Shelley, who
had been with Military Intelligence during WWII, and then had joined
the CIA.


> He constructed a makeshift bag and made an unusual Thursday night
> trip to the Paine's house in Irving to fetch his rifle.


The planners had access to any rifles they wanted, and they chose a
military rifle that they had plenty of ammunition for...In 1954, the
DOD let a contract to Western Cartridge Company, a division of
Winchester-Olin, for 4 million rounds of 6.5x52mm Carcano full metal
jacket ammunition. The contract was requested by the CIA. In 1962,
this ammunition was re-imported into the United States, along with
many of the M38 Carcano rifles it was intended for, and was released
for sale onto the US civilian market. The four million rounds were
produced as part of four 1-million-round lots, numbered 6000, 6001,
6002, and 6003. The rounds came in plain white cardboard boxes of 20
rounds each.

These four lots were the only lots of 6.5x52mm Carcano ammunition ever
produced by Western, making identification of the rounds, easy. During
the Warren Hearings, Dr. Alfred Olivier of Edgewood Arsenal gave
testimony regarding the nature of the ammunition used in the
assassination:

MR. SPECTER: And What gun was used?
DR. OLIVIER: It was a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked
Commission Exhibit 139.
MR. SPECTER: What bullets were used?
DR. OLIVIER: It was the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western
Ammunition lot 6,000.

So we see that ACCORDING TO THE WC, the bullet that killed JFK was
purchased by the CIA.


> Because the rifle was 42" long and the bag only 40", he had to
> disassemble the rifle to make it fit.


The rifle could not have been brought into the TSBD via a paper bag
that was too short to hold the rifle. It was most likely taken into
the building a day or two earlier (as were other rifles).

Someone was quick thinking, however, and a bag was constructed onsite
and paraded out of the building as the way Oswald brought a rifle INTO
the building.

Both bringing in, and just as important, bringing out rifles
undetected from the building was a simple matter - put it in a box,
and ship it.


> He went to Buell Wesley Frazier's house the next morning to get a
> ride to work. He lied to Frazier, telling him the package contained
> curtain rods. He carried the package containing the rifle into work.


The selected assassins drove to Dallas, and set up several locations,
the TSBD and the Grassy Knoll being two of them that have obvious
evidence for. The opposite knoll was where one of the assassins fired
the first shot, creating a hole in the windshield and striking JFK in
the throat - as the *ONLY* medical examination of this wound showed it
was an entry wound.


> He eventually decided to attempt the assassination from the southeast
> corner window of the 6th floor. He opened the package and reassembled
> the rifle and lay in wait for JFK's motorcade to appear which it did
> at 12:30 pm.


The assassins were aided by the Secret Service, who stripped the limo
of the two rear agents, and had the police motorcycles move out of the
way for the Grassy Knoll shooter. These assassins all timed their
shots to when the limo reached the newly painted yellow marker on the
curb. This would make it difficult to tell how many shots were fired.


> He waited until the limo had turned the corner on to Elm St and
> several seconds later fired the first shot that missed.


When the limo reached the yellow marker, the shooter at the South
Knoll fired first, through the windshield, and struck JFK in the
throat.


> I should point out this is my conclusion since the WC never concluded
> which of Oswald's shots missed.


I should point out that people who have claimed that later examnation
of the Zapruder film could show which shot "missed" simply lied... as
it's not possible to tell from the Zapruder film a precise time for
any but *one* shot.

And yes, it's Corbutt who was the liar who told this lie.

As there were more than three shots fired, it's a moot point which one
missed anyway. We have evidence for at least TWO missed shots, the
one that struck the curb, and the one that buried itself in the grass.


> After missing the first shot, Oswald waited until JFK passed by the
> oak tree far enough that he had a clear line of fire. Less than a
> second after JFK came into the clear, Oswald fired his second shot
> which struck JFK in the upper back, exited from his throat, passed
> through JBC's


After the South Knoll shooter struck JFK, one of the two TSBD shooters
fired, and aimed so poorly that the bullet's trajectory was several
feet ABOVE the limo, finally striking the curb, and injuring Tague.


>torso, struck his wrist and lodged in his thigh.


Firing a second time, the TSBD shooter shot JFK in the back. Ths may
well have been the second of the two TSBD shooters, as the first one
clearly had problems.

Connally was still uninjured, the WC recognizing that he showed no
reaction at that time to a shot, hypothesizing that Connally had a
"delayed reaction."

Another shot, quite likely from the Southwest window - furthest from
the SN, then struck Connally.

The Grassy Knoll shooter now fired, striking Connally in the wrist.

Connally's leg wound was likely a sheared off fragment from one of the
other two bullets that struck him.


> Almost 5 seconds later, Oswald fired his third shot which struck JFK
> in the back of the head, blew open the upper right side of his head,,
> and exited from the front right of his skull. Pieces of that bullet
> were later found on the floor of the limo and matched to Oswald's
> rifle as was the bullet that had lodged in JBC's thigh that was later
> found on a gurney at Parkland Hospital. The head wound was fatal and
> JFK was officially pronounced dead at 1:00 pm.


Pieces of the CIA purchased bullet were matched to a Mannlicher
Carcano rifle that had paperwork forged to place it in the ownership
of the designated patsy. Some things were simply beyond the control
of the framers - they clearly didn't think through the issues of
mailing a rifle to a P.O. box.


> Oswald left the 6th floor window, walked across the 6th floor toward
> the rear stairs, dropping his rifle between some boxes. He descended
> the stairs and was briefly detained by Officer Marrion Baker who
> released him after Roy Truly vouched for him as an employee of the
> TSBD.


As officers rushed in to the building, they encountered a non-TSDB
person descending the stairs, one of the shooters. Another shooter
ran out the back door of the TSBD.


> He left the building at the front and first try to leave the area by
> bus. When the bus couldn't get throught the Houston/Elm intersection,
> he got off and walked several blocks to pick up a cab which took him
> to the neighborhood where his rooming house was. He entered the
> rooming house, fetched his handgun and a jacket and left about 1:00
> pm.


The shooters then left Dallas quickly, the two knoll shooters simply
driving out (Parking lots at both locations), and the two TSBD
shooters perhaps having a car stashed nearby... then most likely
having flown out on a plane being held for them at the airport.


> Shortly after that he was stopped at 10th and Patton streets by
> officer J. D. Tippit. After a brief conversation, Tippit got out of
> his cruiser and was shot dead by Oswald. Oswald fled the scene and
> later snuck into the Texas Theater as police cars were prowling the
> aread looking for a cop killer. They were notified by a witness that
> Oswald had snuck into the theater and the cops went in. They
> surrounded him at which time Oswald pulled his handgun and tried to
> shoot one of the arresting officers.


Tippit was murdered by two individuals, and it's completely unknown if
it's connected to the JFK murder, or simply a coincidence in time. The
patsy couldn't have made it there to be the suspect in the Tippit
killing, but a little creative effort changed that.

This scenario obviously doesn't include much of the detail that my
longer scenario includes - but I predict that responses to this
scenario will include complaints that I've not explained this, or
explained that - not realizing that neither did Corbutt.

Watch! I've predicted it!

And Corbutt no longer has any excuse not to answer the rest of the
Vincent Bugliosi's 53 Reasons being refuted - but he'll come up with
another excuse....

Watch! I've predicted it!
******************************************************************

> I kept my part of the bargain. You welched. Until you present your
> scenario as you promised, we have nothing to talk about.

You STILL have nothing to talk about. You're simply a coward.

[BT George]

It's mirror time again folks!

[Hank Sienzant]

Well, how does “a rifle from a high location” (one weapon) fit in with the scenario you suggest a bit later?

This:

> The selected assassins drove to Dallas, and set up several locations,
> the TSBD and the Grassy Knoll being two of them that have obvious
> evidence for. The opposite knoll was where one of the assassins fired
> the first shot, creating a hole in the windshield and striking JFK in
> the throat - as the *ONLY* medical examination of this wound showed it
> was an entry wound.

You’ve gone from saying one shooter with one weapon, to multiple shooters in multiple locations within the space of a few paragraphs!

[Steven Galbraith]

Remember as well that he's repeatedly stated that the conspiracy involved "a small handful of people, less than half a dozen" and that characterizing it as a large scale act was a logical fallacy.
Yes, the scenario above was planned and carried out by a small handful of people.

[John Corbett]

This is way conspiracy hobbyists have long been reluctant to present a scenario of the
assassination because every time they try, it falls apart like a house of cards. They need
plotters who are at times very, very smart and at other times very, very stupid. Some of
their shooters display super human marksmanship while others miss wildly. Benny has
offered us a multitude of magic bullets requiring impossible geometry and at least two
magic disappearing bullets since he has entry wounds on JFK's back and in his throat
yet no exit for either and no bullets found in JFK's body. And that's just for starters.

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT), Hank Sienzant
<hsie...@aol.com> wrote:

Because it was one of the locations... are you stupid???

>This:
>
>> The selected assassins drove to Dallas, and set up several locations,
>> the TSBD and the Grassy Knoll being two of them that have obvious
>> evidence for. The opposite knoll was where one of the assassins fired
>> the first shot, creating a hole in the windshield and striking JFK in
>> the throat - as the *ONLY* medical examination of this wound showed it
>> was an entry wound.
>
> You’ve gone from saying one shooter with one weapon, to multiple
> shooters in multiple locations within the space of a few paragraphs!

And you're molesting Corbutt's grandmother now.

You'll **NEVER** quote me saying that there was only one shooter.

I'll apologize for telling everyone that you're molesting Corbutt's
grandmother when you apologize for telling everyone I said something
I've never said.

I suspect that you're thinking that *I* said what Corbutt said, but
we'll wait to see if you can actually quote me.

Either a quote, or an apology...

Or, of course, cowardice... which is what I really expect.

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 10:05:24 -0700 (PDT), Steven Galbraith
<stevemg...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Remember as well that he's repeatedly stated that the conspiracy
> involved "a small handful of people, less than half a dozen" and that
> characterizing it as a large scale act was a logical fallacy.

Steven is too much a coward to debate a knowledgeable critic.

[Ben Holmes]

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 19:49:25 -0700 (PDT), John Corbett
<geowri...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 1:05:25?PM UTC-4, Steven Galbraith wrote:
>> On Friday, April 14, 2023 at 2:06:19?PM UTC-4, BT George wrote:

This is a simple lie on your part. I've REPEATEDLY posted a scenario
whenever I could talk a believer in to doing so.

Indeed, it's BELIEVERS who are terrified of posting their scenario,
AND BACKING IT UP WITH CITATIONS TO THE EVIDENCE!

Then there's even Chuckles, who repeatedly claims he has **NO**
scenario.

And Corbutt, who has NOT A CLUE what a "citation" is.

>They need plotters who are at times very, very smart and at other times very, very stupid.

This is, of course, *YOUR* unsupported claim.

>Some of their shooters display super human marksmanship while others miss wildly.

If the Tague bullet came from the TSBD, then even **YOU** admit how
high that trajectory is.

> Benny has offered us a multitude of magic bullets requiring
> impossible geometry

What you won't hear from Corbutt is *HOW* it's "impossible" - I
provided diagrams showing exactly how the trajectory works. Corbutt
can't deny the diagrams, or provide one of his own.

>and at least two magic disappearing bullets since he has entry wounds on JFK's back and in his throat
>yet no exit for either and no bullets found in JFK's body.

They didn't "disappear" magically, they were removed by Dr. Humes in
the pre-autopsy autopsy. This is why EVERY SINGLE BELIEVER is
terrified of the evidence for what time JFK arrived at Bethesda.

> And that's just for starters.

You'll have to start again...