I suggest you wait for his concurrence. There are a lot of fake sheep out there
that are due for a rude awakening..
>
>
>> >> >what exactly is the problem in calling this a "personal relationship?"
>
>> >> It actually results in so many sheep refusing to follow Jesus and his teachings.
>> >> They seek a "personal relationship" but just don't get it that they're mandated
>> >> to follow Jesus.
>
>> >but Jesus said, [paraphrasing]
>
>> >"where i am going you cannot come, But, i will send back Word
>> >as a Comfort and this Comfort will live inside you and you
>> >will actually Know The Truth, which I am, and that Truth will
>> >make you Free indeed and in truth."
>
>> That was 3 years later just before the cross.
>when it was said doesn't matter, what was said does matter.
When he said it, he was advising and demonstrating to his disciples 3 years
before the cross what being a Christian is. He gave us our marching orders in
repenting of our sins, picking up our own cross and following him. He alone is
our judge regardless of what we think. However, a deal giveaway is an
assessment in success in following him in this world.
Here's a good approximate assessment of what he taught us:
MASS:
Do this in memory of me - Mat 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-26, Luke 22:14-20,
1Cor 11:23-25 (11-34).
SACRAMENTS:
1. Baptism - John 3:5-6, Mat 28:19, Hebrew 2:14-15
2. Holy Eucharist -Mat 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-26, Luke 22:14-20,
1Cor 11:23-25 (11-34).
3. Confession - John 20:22-23, 2 Cor 5:18-19, Mat 9:2-8
4. Matrimony - Mat 19:4-6, Mark 10:5-9, Ephesians 5:31
5. Confirmation - Ephesians 1:13-14, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 19:5-6,
6. Holy Orders - Acts 13:3 & 14:23, John 20:22, 1 & 2 Tim
7. Anointing of the Sick - Mark 6:12-13, John 5:14
PAPACY:
Mat 16:13-19 (Pope), Mat 28:16-20 (Teaching), Eph 2:19-20 (Base)
PURGATORY:
1 Cor 3:10-15
FAITH (without deeds is dead faith):
Mat 25:31-46, James 2:26
Feed the hungry.
Clothe the naked.
Give drink to the thirsty.
Visit the imprisoned.
Heal the sick.
Cast out demons.
>the indwelling of the Holy Spirit constitutes a "personal relationship"
The Holy Spirit, who guides us, fully calls for our participation in the above
works + others. As scripture says, the Holy Spirit comes us to in Baptism.
If you don't follow Jesus, you don't follow his Spirit which comes directly form
the Son.
>> >essentially saying that 'we' -cannot- follow Jesus where he is -going-,
>> >but, that, He will send a Presence that will abide in the 'believer'
>> >and the Kingdom of God will truly be 'in your midst'
>> They had the previous 3 years to listen to him.
>that's nice, they listened to Jesus for years, they had
>a "personal relationship" with Christ and even ate with
>him and touched him and spoke to him.
That's a personal relationship with your next door neighbor, not the Son of God.
With the Son of God, you don't get to say "let's call it off today".
>even if Jesus says; [speaking to Thomas]
>"because you has seen me, you believe, blessed
>are those who have not seen, and believe."
>
>doesn't mean that those who believe and have not seen,
>do not the same sort of personal relationship that Thomas had,
>through their Faith, after all, "Faith" is the substance
>of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
And especially dead if not fulfilled in actions.
James 2:26New International Version (NIV)
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
>if you're not listening to Jesus though Faith and walking with
>Jesus through Faith and living with Jesus through Faith, you
>may as well say you believe in space aliens, because you can
>say you believe in space aliens and never once say you have
>spoken with them eaten with them or walked among them.
And faith not fulfilled in deeds is dead faith.
>> >this personal Presence of Christ in the believer Is what constitutes "the Church"
>> A strange comment. The body of Christ are the baptized.
>that's not enough. haven't many "hereticks" been baptized?
Only the baptized can be heretics. We become Christians in joining the Body of
Christ in Baptism.
>didn't work for them did it...?
Actually it worked perfectly.
Hebrews 10:26-27New International Version (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of
the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of
judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
>> >there should be a billion Saints walking the planet, with a flood of
>> >the knowledge of God covering the surface as an ocean, together as
>> >a "Royal Priesthood a holy nation, His own special people,"
>> >proclaiming the praises of Him who called them out of darkness
>> >into His marvelous light.
>
>> He said "repent of your sins, pick up your own cross daily, and follow me.
>Jesus -cannot- 'remain' a "stranger" if one is actually "following" him.
>and if not a "stranger" then a 'friend' and if a friend, then, personally
>involved with. that is a "personal relationship"
"Personal Relationship" is not found in scripture. Following Jesus is.
>one can "follow" the sun around and gaze at the moon following its daily transitioning.
>the sun and the moon don't know you are there, Jesus does.
>> >not a worldly empire escorting a 'laity' back into perpetual darknesses
>> >if you have not the Spirit of God, you are NONE of His...
>
>> You don't have the Holy Spirit if not baptized.
>you may not have the Holy Spirit -if- you -are- baptized in water alone.
We join the Body of Christ (become Christians) in baptism. For the infant, it's
at the decision of the parents just as starting school is. In the adult, it's a
personal decision **TO** follow Jesus, to become a Christian.
>are there "hereticks" in the Roman Church?
By the millions, probably. And the key point is: Only Jesus knows where he
draws the line. Of course, "heretic" technically means to redefine the words of
Jesus. Such was the case of the Inquisitions. Heb 10:26-27 catches those
that live contrary to what Jesus said.
>have there ever been "hereticks" in the Roman Church?
>> >no 'other' intermediate is necessary nor required nor even very useful,
>> >aside from God's own Presence within the =people= that constitute
>> >the Church itself.
>> Christians are the baptized.
>////
>Matthew 3:11 ; Luke 3:16
>
>I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance,
>but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
>whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
>He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
>\\\\
>these are Christians...
And as demonstrated by Jesus in the Jordan, he was baptized by John the Baptist
coupled/followed with the descent of the Holy Spirit. So really it's a two-fold
event. There was no Christian baptism until after the cross.
>> >you want to maintain some sense of 'order'? fine
>> >but, does not your own ope call for a "new evangelisation?'
>> >well, Evangelization is a GIFT of THE SPIRIT and -not-
>> >a matter of relaying the learning of men
>> >and you do not receive GIFTS of THE SPIRIT is you have NOT
>> >the SPIRIT in the first place.
>
>> Nope, if you are not baptized.
>
>
>\\\\
>Romans 8:9
>
>But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed
>the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not
>have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
>////
That's right.
>> >and like it or not, this SPIRIT -in- people constitutes
>> >a "personal relationship" between God and people.
>> His Holy Spirit doesn't reside in a dead unbaptized soul.
>it is the Spirit of God which makes the flesh -alive-
The Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same. God's spirit
was active before the cross. The Holy Spirit teaches what he received form
Jesus.
>\\\\
>Romans 8:11
>
>11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,
>He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal
>bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
>////
>> >and =NOT= simply; "adoration from a distance"
>> >does that make any sense to you at all?
>> >the Church in people is not just some political tool whose chief utility
>> Baptized.
>in the Holy Spirit
Part and parcel with JtB's baptism in water.
>> >and not defending "men" who -are- filled with the Holy Ghost, but some men
>> >who simply 'appear' to be wearing the appropriate attire as a 'cloak for vice'
>> >but who, in reality, have never known nor been known By Christ.
>> God knows how many hairs all mankind has on their heads at all times.
>God is not placing a knife in the hands of a man
>and pulling the trigger for him, that man
>is guilty of his own crimes.
Exactly, and many were baptized. They failed to live up to it.
>> >> >do you say that the 'sheep' you help to shepherd,
>> >> >do not -need- to 'know' the voice of The Shepherd
>> >> >as long as they recognize -your- voice?
>> >> Nope. A truly weird question.
>> >not really wierd, inasmuch as the people -must- access God directly
>> >through the Spirit of Christ and not through any other sort of
>> >human intermediary.
>> There is no such thing as a human intermediary. All man can do is help guide
>> us as he learned.
>then you must know Christ and be known of him.
It all boils down to if you follow him. Few protest_ants follow his teachings.
>if you don't like "personal relationship" use other words,
>but the situation will be identical.
Follow Jesus - a) repent of your sins and b) pick up your own cross daily. You
ever wonder what b) means. His was total love and giving, but never getting.
>> >if the so-called 'laity' only hear the voice of the so-called 'priesthood'
>> >then they do NOT know Jesus Christ nor are they KNown BY Jesus Christ
>> >and they essentially have Nothing.
>
>> A typical protest_er pastor.
>wrong again, i have no need of protesting against Jesus Christ.
>Jesus Christ is always right and correct.
Are you a protest_ant? Did you not wonder what the root of the word means?
>> >the so-called 'priesthood' should, of course, be aware of this
>> >and make this known to 'its' adherents.
>
>> We know.
>you know that people -must- know and be known of Christ?
I don't know what your "priest" would be.
>
>that's nice, personal knowledge of another , and all
1 Peter 2:9 New International Version
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special
possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of
darkness into his wonderful light.
A "royal priesthood" and a man that made Vows to God in Holy Orders are two
different things.
We who are baptized, I sure, would be the royal priesthood. But we're not
ordained Priests.
>that "love' stuff is a 'relationship'
>why you fear the words "personal relationship" is beyond me.
It's heavily used by protest_ants who do not follow the huge majority of the
teachings of Jesus.
>
>
>
>> >you -cannot- have a "Church of God" composed of; "do as i say not as i do"
>> >you -cannot- have a "Church of God" composed of; "watch 'us', and do as 'we' do"
>
>> Must be as Jesus says and does.
>
>\\\\
>Acts 1:5 [the Risen Christ speaking]
>
>For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be
>baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
>////
>
>baptism with the Holy Ghost constitutes a "personal relationship"
>
>you're combatting windmills...
>
>