Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 30)
David Von Pein
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From February 2007.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- He {Lee Oswald} *wasn't* out of breath
{when encountering Officer Baker in the lunchroom}.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- So? This fact means nothing. Agent Howlett
wasn't out of breath when attempting to replicate Oswald's probable
post-shooting movements within the TSBD either. Big deal.
Are you so out of shape that you couldn't briskly walk DOWN four
flights of stairs and not be panting like you'd just run the Boston
Marathon?
I wonder why the kooks don't ever attempt to re-create Oswald's
post-12:30 breathing status? Could it be because the results would
equate to Howlett's?
Re-constructing an assassin's movements:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/aaeb4a1389e69938
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- He {LHO} *did* have a Coke.
DVP -- No he didn't. Both Marrion Baker and Roy Truly (to the WC) said
that Oswald had nothing in either of his hands that they noticed.
COULD Oswald have possibly had a Coke in his hand? I suppose so, yes.
But is it likely he had the Coke BEFORE the Baker encounter (given
Baker's and Truly's WC remarks)? No.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Embarrassing, isn't it?
DVP -- Not at all. But you should be embarrassed as you desperately
try to exonerate a known double-killer. You should also be cowering in
shame. But, being a kook, I guess you can always claim insanity when
they throw the net around you in a few years (probably due to fears of
crooked FBI agents hiding under your bed).
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Which {Marrion Baker} story? There were, as I recall, three
conflicting stories.
DVP -- There was no major conflict at all. Certainly nothing that
would negate Officer Baker's WC testimony that verifies the fact he
saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the 2nd-Floor lunchroom approximately 90
seconds after the assassination of the President.
BTW, speaking of "conflicting" witnesses -- which one of Jean Hill's
"versions" do you like best?
Just wondering.
-------------------------------------------
Re. the bullet holes in President Kennedy's body:
CTer -- Yep...he was shot. But the holes don't support *your* theory.
DVP -- Yes...they do. Every entry hole. And every exit hole.
Two shots to JFK's body. Both from behind. Both from above the level
of the deceased. Just like the official autopsy report states. ....
http://www.jfklancer.com/autopsyrpt.html
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/42a0bbac40f320f5
Next?
-------------------------------------------
Re. the bullet holes in Governor Connally's body:
CTer -- Yep...he was shot.
DVP -- Yep. Shot once. And shot by Oswald's C2766 MC rifle. CE399
proves this fact beyond all reasonable doubt, given where the bullet
was found -- i.e., inside the hospital where Connally was taken, and
given the fact the bullet was found in a location within that hospital
where the only other Dealey Plaza/Limo shooting victim was never
located (nor was his stretcher).
The Single-Bullet Theory lives on. And always shall. (CT-Kook versions
of the shooting notwithstanding.)
"Several factors make it clear that Kennedy and Connally WERE struck
by the same bullet. There's absolutely no evidence of the existence of
any separate bullet hitting Connally." -- Vincent Bugliosi
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e06a29392572c072
Next?
-------------------------------------------
Re. the "Sheets vs. Body Bag" argument:
CTer -- A problem you can't address.
DVP -- Sure I can. JFK was positively wrapped in a sheet...not a "body
bag". And what kind of boob plotters would have CHANGED the body
wrappings after Kennedy departed Parkland?
Was this possibly another of the many "What Difference Does It Really
Make?" moments that the miraculous Patsy Framers had to face in the
wake of their brilliant decision to shoot JFK with several guns within
the context of a "Let's Frame One Guy" murder plot?
If so, why did they bother faking ANYTHING? In the minds of these
unknown and unseen conspirators, it would seem as if their crazy
assassination plot couldn't fail even if a bomb had been dropped on
it.
Dr. Humes confirmed that the dead President was wrapped in a "sheet".
The sheet even had "Parkland" printed on it. (He's a rotten liar here,
right Mr. Kook?).....
"We opened the casket, Dr. Boswell and I, and the President's body was
unclothed in the casket, was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the
Parkland Hospital." -- James J. Humes
-------------------------------------------
Re. the "Cheap Shipping Casket vs. An Expensive One" argument:
CTer -- Another problem you can't address.
DVP -- Sure I can. JFK arrived at Bethesda Naval Medical Center in a
bronze ornamental casket....the same one he left Parkland in. Simple.
Except for you kooks who wish to believe Paul "No Brains In The Head"
O'Connor.
Yeah, Paul's a perfect witness. He couldn't be wrong about ANYTHING,
right? Even that little snafu about all of JFK's brains going AWOL
before the autopsy.
<smirk>
DR. HUMES -- "It was a wooden casket with long handles on both
sides....it was a handsome--the standard of those things. It was a
good-looking casket."
And here once again, I guess the kooks think this whole "Let's Frame
The Patsy" game was being played by total morons who couldn't even
figure out what kind (or color!) of casket to place JFK's body back
into after the Lifton-esque "surgery to the head area" that totally
switched the entry and exit wounds on JFK's head before the autopsy at
Bethesda.
The bumbling goofs who tried to pull off this Presidential murder plot
(per some of you CTers) were second to none in the "Mentally Retarded
Conspirators" department.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0de08844600b8c7a
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/30f318ea48653a72
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- The chain of possession was broken on a number of items of
evidence.
DVP -- Your definition of "broken" is not worth a plug nickel. But
keep on using your CT-Kook definition. It serves your "Let's Free
Oswald" needs admirably.
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Some of the evidence contradicts other bits of evidence. It
can't *all* be correct.
DVP -- There are bound to be some contradictions in the evidence at
SOME POINT (particularly in the early stages of the investigation).
But after the initial errors are sorted out -- Mauser vs. Carcano and
Automatic vs. Revolver, etc. -- this case is rock-solid in favor of
Lee Harvey Oswald's lone guilt.
~MARK VII~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4a6b3390021d657c
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4dd73f8e676a5db8
~~~~~~
"If Lee Harvey Oswald had nothing to do with President Kennedy's
assassination and was framed....this otherwise independent and defiant
would-be revolutionary, who disliked taking orders from anyone, turned
out to be the most willing and cooperative frame-ee in the history of
mankind!! Because the evidence of his guilt is so monumental, that he
could have just as well gone around with a large sign on his back
declaring in bold letters 'I Just Murdered President John F.
Kennedy'!!!" -- Vincent Bugliosi
~~~~~~
"I'm 95% sure he {Oswald} acted alone; and if you threw 85% of the
evidence out the window there would still be enough to prove his guilt
beyond a reasonable doubt." -- Vincent Bugliosi
~~~~~~
"It's been said that if you push something at someone long enough,
eventually they're going to start buying it -- particularly if they're
not exposed to any contrary view. And I think that's precisely what
has happened here. For 25 years, the American people have been
inundated with an unremitting torrent of books, and radio and TV talk
shows, all alleging conspiracy.
"And what's happened, is that the shrill voice of the conspiracy buffs
finally penetrated the consciousness of the American people and
convinced the majority of Americans that there was a conspiracy. Even
though the reality is that no one has come up with one scrap of
credible, substantive evidence pointing in the direction of a
conspiracy. .... If they knew all the truth about the case, very few
people would conclude that there was a conspiracy." -- Vincent Bugliosi
eca...@comcast.net
You're the man!
Ed
David Von Pein
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 1):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/a24db166f7a99f10
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 2):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e812362dd238d001
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 3):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0152cc738b030bcf
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 4):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/ee96be5a077a98fd
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 5):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/f9dd43d5b2f61456
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 6):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e8219af7ea5db679
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 7):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/ebffe560c134b922
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 8):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7e7e2dd64e1f415f
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 9):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1f05e5a68aa78886
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 10):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0cb4be5acb1b17e8
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 11):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/394b40c6e91df723
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 12):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4f2b4090cafa2779
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 13):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/ad68c198d16af212
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 14):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1d92a59f516d3cc9
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 15):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0b34314fcbdf1e48
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 16):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2c436ce9cf9f2c32
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 17):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/057b5f554cd54748
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 18):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/37c437db91b9d3f6
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 19):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/5ce4819a8aeb75d9
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 20):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/80b079e2615599a3
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 21):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1021b6c8d8409e96
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 22):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3829e45856ccb792
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 23):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/399773c9594c0251
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 24):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2ad0bf51800038d2
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 25):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2e101f268c4421ce
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 26):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7736a96c67ac7ad1
DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 27):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/373903118be72df7
Ben Holmes
Strangely enough, LNT'ers have to snip and re-arrange my words before answering.
In article <1171013514.7...@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
eca...@comcast.net says...
>
>Keep em coming David!
>You're the man!
>Ed
You're known by the friends you keep.
>On Feb 9, 3:04 am, "David Von Pein" <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> DEBATING THE JFK CASE (PART 30):
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
>> Conspiracy" Debate.
>>
>> FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From February 2007.
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- He {Lee Oswald} *wasn't* out of breath
>> {when encountering Officer Baker in the lunchroom}.
>>
>> DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- So? This fact means nothing. Agent Howlett
>> wasn't out of breath when attempting to replicate Oswald's probable
>> post-shooting movements within the TSBD either. Big deal.
Timing doesn't work. The WC proved that...
>> Are you so out of shape that you couldn't briskly walk DOWN four
>> flights of stairs and not be panting like you'd just run the Boston
>> Marathon?
>>
>> I wonder why the kooks don't ever attempt to re-create Oswald's
>> post-12:30 breathing status? Could it be because the results would
>> equate to Howlett's?
>>
>>Re-constructing an assassin's
>>movements:http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/aaeb4a1389e69938
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> CTer -- He {LHO} *did* have a Coke.
>>
>> DVP -- No he didn't. Both Marrion Baker and Roy Truly (to the WC) said
>> that Oswald had nothing in either of his hands that they noticed.
Baker said *otherwise*. It's in writing. You'll have to live with that fact.
>> COULD Oswald have possibly had a Coke in his hand? I suppose so, yes.
>> But is it likely he had the Coke BEFORE the Baker encounter (given
>> Baker's and Truly's WC remarks)? No.
That he *did* have one in his hands simply adds more time to the impossible
timing that the WC demonstrated.
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> CTer -- Embarrassing, isn't it?
>>
>> DVP -- Not at all. But you should be embarrassed as you desperately
>> try to exonerate a known double-killer. You should also be cowering in
>> shame. But, being a kook, I guess you can always claim insanity when
>> they throw the net around you in a few years (probably due to fears of
>> crooked FBI agents hiding under your bed).
I could care less about Oswald. I have no interest in exhonerating anyone.
It's the *EVIDENCE* that does so.
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> CTer -- Which {Marrion Baker} story? There were, as I recall, three
>> conflicting stories.
>>
>> DVP -- There was no major conflict at all.
If you're going to simply lie - then why bother answering?
>> Certainly nothing that
>> would negate Officer Baker's WC testimony that verifies the fact he
>> saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the 2nd-Floor lunchroom approximately 90
>> seconds after the assassination of the President.
>>
>> BTW, speaking of "conflicting" witnesses -- which one of Jean Hill's
>> "versions" do you like best?
Her first one. As I do with all eyewitnesses.
>> Just wondering.
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> Re. the bullet holes in President Kennedy's body:
>>
>> CTer -- Yep...he was shot. But the holes don't support *your* theory.
>>
>> DVP -- Yes...they do. Every entry hole. And every exit hole.
It's too bad that the doctors testified otherwise, isn't it?
>> Two shots to JFK's body. Both from behind. Both from above the level
>> of the deceased. Just like the official autopsy report states. ....
>>
>> http://www.jfklancer.com/autopsyrpt.html
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/42a0bbac40f320f5
>>
>> Next?
Too bad the evidence doesn't support this, isn't it?
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> Re. the bullet holes in Governor Connally's body:
>>
>> CTer -- Yep...he was shot.
>>
>> DVP -- Yep. Shot once.
As many as three times, according to the testimony of the doctor who treated
him. But you don't want to hear that, do you?
>> And shot by Oswald's C2766 MC rifle. CE399
>> proves this fact beyond all reasonable doubt, given where the bullet
>> was found -- i.e., inside the hospital where Connally was taken, and
>> given the fact the bullet was found in a location within that hospital
>> where the only other Dealey Plaza/Limo shooting victim was never
>> located (nor was his stretcher).
CE399 wasn't the bullet found. As the lack of a proper chain of possession and
the assertions of those who handled it make clear.
>> The Single-Bullet Theory lives on. And always shall. (CT-Kook versions
>> of the shooting notwithstanding.)
Yep... the SBT lives on. So does Elvis...
>> "Several factors make it clear that Kennedy and Connally WERE struck
>> by the same bullet. There's absolutely no evidence of the existence of
>> any separate bullet hitting Connally." -- Vincent Bugliosi
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e06a29392572c072
>>
>> Next?
Bugliosi is lying. He's not bothered to read the testimony of the doctor who
treated Connally. That testimony *IS* evidence. So too are the untaken
statements of Chaney.
You see? I didn't even have to wait until his book is published before
validating my prediction that Bugliosi would stoop to outright lies.
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> Re. the "Sheets vs. Body Bag" argument:
>>
>> CTer -- A problem you can't address.
>>
>> DVP -- Sure I can. JFK was positively wrapped in a sheet...not a "body
>> bag". And what kind of boob plotters would have CHANGED the body
>> wrappings after Kennedy departed Parkland?
All you've stated is that you're willing to take one eyewitness over another.
And attempted speculation...
>> Was this possibly another of the many "What Difference Does It Really
>> Make?" moments that the miraculous Patsy Framers had to face in the
>> wake of their brilliant decision to shoot JFK with several guns within
>> the context of a "Let's Frame One Guy" murder plot?
>>
>> If so, why did they bother faking ANYTHING? In the minds of these
>> unknown and unseen conspirators, it would seem as if their crazy
>> assassination plot couldn't fail even if a bomb had been dropped on
>> it.
They made provable mistakes... the 6.5mm virtually round object, for example.
But when you control the investigation, you can get away with quite a bit. As
was done.
>> Dr. Humes confirmed that the dead President was wrapped in a "sheet".
>> The sheet even had "Parkland" printed on it. (He's a rotten liar here,
>> right Mr. Kook?).....
You can't believe Dr. Humes... he told you in no uncertain terms that the 6.5mm
virtually round object was not there on 11/22. He also told you that the wound
was "chiefly parietal, but extends somewhat into the occipital and temporal" (as
best as I can quote from memory). You can't accept this, for the BOH photo is
in conflict with it.
He also told you that he was in charge of the autopsy... which contradicts what
Dr Finck testified to under oath.
The *fact* is, Humes lied.
>> "We opened the casket, Dr. Boswell and I, and the President's body was
>> unclothed in the casket, was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the
>> Parkland Hospital." -- James J. Humes
As stated above, you can't accept what Humes said...
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> Re. the "Cheap Shipping Casket vs. An Expensive One" argument:
>>
>> CTer -- Another problem you can't address.
>>
>> DVP -- Sure I can. JFK arrived at Bethesda Naval Medical Center in a
>> bronze ornamental casket....the same one he left Parkland in. Simple.
>> Except for you kooks who wish to believe Paul "No Brains In The Head"
>> O'Connor.
Yep... eyewitnesses who tell inconvenient stories are all liars, right?
>> Yeah, Paul's a perfect witness. He couldn't be wrong about ANYTHING,
>> right? Even that little snafu about all of JFK's brains going AWOL
>> before the autopsy.
>>
>> <smirk>
>>
>> DR. HUMES -- "It was a wooden casket with long handles on both
>> sides....it was a handsome--the standard of those things. It was a
>> good-looking casket."
>>
>> And here once again, I guess the kooks think this whole "Let's Frame
>> The Patsy" game was being played by total morons who couldn't even
>> figure out what kind (or color!) of casket to place JFK's body back
>> into after the Lifton-esque "surgery to the head area" that totally
>> switched the entry and exit wounds on JFK's head before the autopsy at
>> Bethesda.
>>
>> The bumbling goofs who tried to pull off this Presidential murder plot
>> (per some of you CTers) were second to none in the "Mentally Retarded
>> Conspirators" department.
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0de08844600b8c7a
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/30f318ea48653a72
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> CTer -- The chain of possession was broken on a number of items of
>> evidence.
>>
>> DVP -- Your definition of "broken" is not worth a plug nickel.
It's the legal definition.
>> But
>> keep on using your CT-Kook definition. It serves your "Let's Free
>> Oswald" needs admirably.
>>
>> -------------------------------------------
>>
>> CTer -- Some of the evidence contradicts other bits of evidence. It
>> can't *all* be correct.
>>
>> DVP -- There are bound to be some contradictions in the evidence at
>> SOME POINT (particularly in the early stages of the investigation).
>> But after the initial errors are sorted out -- Mauser vs. Carcano and
>> Automatic vs. Revolver, etc. -- this case is rock-solid in favor of
>> Lee Harvey Oswald's lone guilt.
No, it's not. In fact, as we've learned more about the case, it becomes even
more clear that a conspiracy existed.
I wonder why you can't respond without snipping the post? This was one of the
reasons you've been killfiled. People who are dishonest aren't generally worth
my time.
brightwinger
Why are you bothering with the small stuff that can only be speculated
on?
No speculation is required when it comes to severed arteries. Once you
were told that Dr. Boswell said no surgery was needed to remove the
brain...that means the carotids were already detached at the time of
the autopsy. Oswald didn't do that...do you get it? Others were
involved.
David Von Pein
Oh. Okay.
And just think....I could have saved myself a lot of time by just
asking a Bright Winger (Debra?) to solve the case.
Thanks a lot.
(Ya think Vince and Specter will allow me to remove the chains now?)
David Von Pein
Generally, huh?
LOL. And yet Ben takes a goodly amount of time responding to EACH and
every point raised by someone he's got "killfiled" (within TWO
separate and lengthy "Debate" threads of mine!).
Gotta love that for hypocrisy.
Ben ought to run for office. (I hear Kookville is looking for a new
mayor. Tom-Sack's retiring.)