Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 26)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From January 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- If my scenario is wrong, tell me how
it was that Euins thought a "colored man" was the shooter, and the
12:37 radio witness thought the shots came from Williams' "second
window". Either Williams was indeed a shooter, or there was a rifle in
the next window just before he stuck his head out.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- Or: Euins was mixed up re. the colored men on
the 5th Floor and the actual shooter on the 6th Floor....with the
SIXTH floor being the only floor where remnants of a shooter resided.
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/images/GoD31.gif
Your version of events is so obviously inaccurate for so many reasons.
You've "invented" it from a minimum amount of eyewitness evidence, and
nothing more.
Your version is not based on the BEST EVIDENCE -- which is the
physical evidence and WHERE that evidence was found.
To believe in this particular CTer's crackpot fairy tale that he's
invented....we'd have to toss all common sense out the window and
actually believe that the three African-American Book Depository
workers on the 5th Floor were playing an elaborate shell game to frame
Lee Harvey Oswald...and that these guys planted evidence on a
DIFFERENT floor from where the shooting actually occurred.
As anyone can easily see, the conspiracist purporting this loony-toon
theory is way out in left field (without a glove even) with his made-
up shooting scenario.
Isn't it MUCH more likely that there was a shooter on the floor where
the gun and the shells and the paper bag were located?
That CTer is living proof that theories can be invented for virtually
any conspiracy scenario a person chooses to attempt to
endorse.....including having three innocent Depository employees
dragged through the mud on a mere whim (based on very flimsy
eyewitness evidence, which is indeed, as everyone knows, the least-
likely-to-be-accurate type of information).*
* = Yes, I know that includes Howard Brennan too. But the difference
there, IMO, is that Brennan initially described to the police a gunman
with a general description that FITS the owner of the gun that was
used in the assassination and the owner of the multiple fingerprints
that were located on multiple objects (boxes, bag) within the Sniper's
Nest on the sixth floor.
Given the totality of evidence in the case as it exists, the
likelihood that Howard Brennan saw somebody in that window OTHER than
Lee Harvey Oswald is extremely low to non-existent.
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CTer -- The Tippit shooting is a separate issue.
DVP -- Yeah, the Tippit murder was totally "separate". It was just a
coincidence that Officer Tippit was shot by the owner of the rifle
that was found in a building that JFK passed while he, too, was being
shot by an "Oswald-like" individual who was shooting from the exact
same TSBD floor where Tippit's murderer's rifle was found.
Coincidences like that (within 45 minutes of each other) happen in
Dallas every day of the week. Don't they?
~smirk~
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CTer -- Lee Harvey Oswald was a U.S. intelligence agent.
DVP -- I guess the CTers who believe that Oswald was working for the
CIA or FBI (or whoever) also must believe that Oswald hid every last
dime he ever made as an "insider with the Agency"....because he sure
as heck wasn't living high on any type of hog that I could see. Not
even close. And the Warren Commission obviously never found any of
that CIA stash of Oswald's either.
The bum couldn't even support his wife and infant daughters. They had
to sponge off of other people for months at a time. And as far as I'm
aware, LHO never gave Ruth Paine a cent.
And Oswald, in the weeks leading up to the assassination, had to live
in an $8-a-week closet-sized room at a roominghouse, surrounded by
several other tenants. (A great atmosphere for "plotting" with his
fellow conspirators, huh?)
http://www.internationalnewsagency.org/Conspi20.jpg
Do CIA operatives usually have to live in virtual poverty (in rooms
the size of shoeboxes)?
Great CIA gig there, huh?
The WC examined, in great detail, Lee Oswald's finances for the last
1.5 years of his life, and they came within $19 of balancing Oswald's
cash exactly.
Granted, the WC's figures re. LHO's cash situation included many
"estimations"; but they were all consistent monthly estimates,
allowing exactly $100 per month (for most months) for "food, clothing,
and incidental expenses".
On Page 745 of the Warren Report, we find the bottom-line estimate of
the WC's evaluation of Oswald's net worth as of November 22,
1963....and it is within $19.77 of LHO's actual "cash on hand" figure.
Per the WC detailed data, Oswald earned a not-very-hefty $3,665.89
from June 13, 1962, through November 22, 1963. His expenditures
totalled $3,501.79. Leaving a "cash on hand" balance on the day of the
assassination of $164.10 (per the WC estimates).
Oswald left $170 at the Paine house (no doubt for his wife) and he had
$13.87 on him when he was arrested. So the Commission missed the exact
figure by less than a $20 bill.
So, if Lee was working for the CIA, he must have been doing so for
free. Or, Lee hid his CIA wealth somewhere and it's never been
discovered to this day.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0385a.htm
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CTer -- Oswald was so secretive, how would anyone know if he stuffed
money under a rock or in a bank under a false name?
DVP -- And then never bothered to spend a cent of it on himself, his
wife, or his kids.
But, then again, maybe Sweet Lee wasn't in it for the cash. Just the
intrigue. Right?
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CTer -- Only a frangible bullet, designed to disintegrate on impact,
does this. A second type of ammunition means there was a second
shooter, and hence a conspiracy.
DVP -- Bullshit. There's no proof that a WCC/MC bullet like Oswald's
cannot break apart significantly and produce very small fragments
after striking an object.
When Dr. John Lattimer performed his skull tests with WCC/MC
ammunition, the bullets were significantly damaged and did much more
damage to the test skulls than Lattimer ever thought would occur
before he did the tests. (And EVERY skull, when hit from behind, moved
TOWARD THE SHOOTER, btw.) .....
"When combined with the overpowering evidence that the X-rays of
{Kennedy's} head show metallic bullet fragments arranged only from
back to front in the right side of his brain case and with the skull
damage all centering on the right side of his skull, we are left with
absolutely no indication that he was struck from the front or right
front by an additional bullet, as claimed by critics of the Warren
Commission." -- John Lattimer; Page 258; "Kennedy And Lincoln"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4f18bcb78b94d9d8
Plus -- Vince Guinn's NAA analysis shows that a fragment taken from
JFK's head was almost certainly from a "WCC/Carcano" bullet (like
Oswald's).
Even if you think Guinn is full of shit re. some of his more-detailed
analysis (as all CTers do think), I want to know what the odds are of
a WCC/MC-like bullet fragment MATCHING the type of "frangible" bullet
you're purporting here?
A totally-different type of bullet will NOT show up as a "WCC/MC"-like
bullet via NAA analysis.
And we know JFK was NOT hit in the head more than once...with the ONE
& ONLY entry wound on the head being in the BACK of the head.
If JFK was shot in the head from the front, then all 3 autopsy
physicians are/were scheming, rotten liars....AND the X-rays and
autopsy photos are positively faked articles....AND the HSCA's
photographic panel is/was dead-wrong (or made up of nothing but liars
too)....AND the HSCA's FPP is/was dead-wrong (or made up of still more
rotten lying shills as well). And the Clark Panel is/was dead-wrong,
too.
Are all of those things truly likely?
Think that over. And then think up another theory, because this one
about the "frangible" crap is buried.
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CTer -- Maybe they {the make-believe killers of gobs of unwanted
witnesses} wanted the {Mentesana} film off the market.
DVP -- And "they" were planning on snatching up the film (along with
any and all copies of said film), and then the plotters/Death Squad
were planning on burying all the films in the same coffin with
Mentesana.
Was that the brilliant plan the plotters had in mind when they rubbed
out the filmmaker to rid the world of the murdered man's film?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d52845e6c744cccf
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CTer -- Three people that happen to have time elements or watches
claim that Tippit was murdered prior to 1:10.
DVP -- And the DPD pinned it down to around 1:16. Who's more likely to
have the MOST ACCURATE time-keeping devices? Helen Markham, T.F.
Bowley, or the Dallas Police Department records?
(Guess which ones the kooks will pick?)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/cbcca847390ffca8
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1bdb7e56f0427853
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CTer -- Wrong. They {the LNers} have a list of strawman arguments.
DVP -- LOL. Apparently, per certain conspiracy theorists, ALL of this
stuff is made out of nothing but straw....
1.) Oswald is in the TSBD Building at 12:30 on 11/22/63.
2.) Oswald has no verifiable alibi for 12:30.
3.) Oswald lies when trying to establish an alibi for 12:30.
4.) Oswald is seen on the Death Floor shortly prior to 12:30 (at
approx. 11:55 AM).
5.) Oswald's rifle is found on the Death Floor.
6.) Shells from Oswald's rifle are in the Sniper's Nest on the Death
Floor.
7.) An empty paper bag with Oswald's prints on it is found in the SN.
8.) Oswald's prints are all over the SN (deep inside the nest too).
9.) Howard Brennan identifies Oswald as the man who was firing at the
President with a "high-powered rifle".
10.) A bullet from Oswald's rifle shows up at Parkland Hospital on
11/22/63.
11.) Fragments from a bullet which came from Oswald's rifle show up in
the Presidential limousine.
12.) A fragment from a bullet which came from Oswald's rifle shows up
in John F. Kennedy's head.
13.) Oswald leaves the TSBD Building at approx. 12:33 (and lies about
why he left).
14.) Oswald rushes home, picks up a revolver, and rushes out again.
15.) Oswald shoots and kills Patrolman J.D. Tippit on 10th Street.
16.) Oswald attempts another murder inside the Texas Theater.
17.) "It's all over now!"
18.) "Well, they say it just takes a second to die."
19.) Oswald lies repeatedly when questioned about ANYTHING substantive
re. the JFK/JDT murders.
20.) Wes Frazier sees Oswald haul a bulky package into the TSBD
Building on the morning of 11/22/63.
To some CTers, all of the above is evidently just "straw"....to be
merely tossed aside and deemed insignificant.
Sheesh.
In actuality, the above list provides (as Vince Bugliosi likes to say)
a "mosaic" of Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt. And.....
"In fact, you could throw 80% of the evidence against him out the
window and there would still be more than enough left to convince any
reasonable person of {Oswald's} sole role in the crime." -- VB
~MARK VII~
These two things (alone) pretty much prove Lee Oswald's guilt beyond a
reasonable person's doubt:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/909b5b194cab1cbe
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CTer -- Brennan could not identify Oswald until after a closed-door
meeting with the FBI in which he was either slapped around or given a
large sum of money.
DVP -- And did he start living high on the hog after 1964? Did he quit
his job as a Dallas steamfitter?
And was the FBI prepared to have gobs and gobs of these "closed-door
meetings" with potential witnesses who saw the "wrong" thing? And were
they prepared to dole out untold millions to those witnesses too?
They SHOULD have been prepared to do just that....due to the HUNDREDS
of potential witnesses in Dealey Plaza during the President's
assassination.
I just love it when conspiracy clowns start making stuff up out of
nothingness to advance their "theories".
Don't you?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/a83751f6ce319004
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/d26167f23399f7d6
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CTer -- Until you can prove that CE-139 was fired THAT day {11/22/63},
it's your fragments that are IRRELEVANT.
DVP -- I love the topsy-turvy, inside-out (il)logic of select CTers.
It's a howl to see the lengths these people will go to in order to
exonerate a double-murderer.
Instead of evaluating the evidence in a reasonable and logical manner
(as any rational person would), the rabid CT-Kooks would rather insert
an "extraordinary" type of explanation, which is much less likely to
be true...i.e., that some gang of plotters got together to frame poor
Lee Oswald, and as a part of that plot they "planted" two badly-
fragmented hunks of metal from CE139 in the front seat of X-100.**
** = The names of these "planters" will forever remain a secret,
naturally....as all of these "evidence manipulators" must, in a CTer's
murky world replete with dozens of ever-conniving henchmen.
But back in the world of the less extraordinary, fragments from CE139/
C2766 being found in the President's vehicle PROVE beyond ALL DOUBT
that CE139/C2766 was fired during the Dealey Plaza shooting. No other
solution is logical, as even the conspiracy-loving kooks must surely
realize (but will never admit).
It's the same way that CE399's existence inside the very same hospital
where the two shooting victims were taken proves beyond any reasonable
doubt whatsoever that CE399 entered that medical facility by way of
one of those two victims who were carried into that hospital on Friday
afternoon, November 22nd, 1963.
And since we know (also beyond any reasonable doubt) that JFK's
stretcher (and body) were never in the area where CE399 was found at
the time when 399 was discovered by Darrell Tomlinson -- this proves
beyond all reasonable doubt (and without interjecting the
"extraordinary" explanations that CTers cannot live without, but can
never prove) that it was the body of John B. Connally that deposited
that bullet onto that stretcher on November 22.
Any other explanation fails the "logic" test, and fails the "Proof It
Was Planted" test as well.
If a certain skeptical CTer went to bed one snow-free night and then
woke up to find several inches of the white stuff on his driveway the
next morning, I wonder if he'd say to himself:
How do I REALLY know it snowed last night? I think this stuff might
have been "planted" here by Jack Ruby and Company overnight. (Ruby
supposedly had access to that green pick-up, you know....that truck
could hold a lot of the white stuff.)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3ae26a3befc052b8
David Von Pein
PARTS 1 THRU 25:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/71ed07855131b5cd