Perlocutionary effects of topic suggestion listings (was Re: New Thread Time? (Was: Re: [KinkForAll] KFADEN: Lightning Quick Updates))
maymay
> Yeah, good call on new thread.
Agreed. Sorry, Emma, for not doing this myself sooner. So, this is the new thread that forked from the discussion about KFADEN's logistical updates.[0]
> maymay, just a terse response right now -- yes, I have secret information about Isaac's intentions, having struck up a conversation with him off-list about what he thought he might talk about.
Cool.
> You make a really good point about a list of topics being a crucial tool for folks who are "trying to discern what KFADEN is going to be like". With that in mind, maybe that information shouldn't be tucked away solely in a column at the end of the sign up table? Maybe as people start to flesh out their topics, we should put together a separate list that has room for short expository blurbs? I mean, yeah, a lot of what's on the sign up chart (my entry included) is indeed cryptic or misleading, due at least in part to space constraints. Thoughts?
> Ben
Yeah, I agree with you. That's something I've thought about in the past but have had no "good" solution to.
Since the sign up list is just a digital (HTML) table, there isn't a technical space constraint, just a visual one. That is, one could theoretically write a paragraph or two in that box and that would be technically feasible, but visually disruptive. Then again, the point of the sign up table is that it is a machine-readable format. There was some talk a while back about creating tools to use wiki page content as a semantic web-like back-end and develop different interfaces around it for different goals and to serve people with different technical needs. (There's a github repository for this but it is still embryonic.)[1]
One possibility for now is to create a new KFADEN-associated page on the wiki, perhaps at http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllDenverTopicIdeas or similar, and use that page as a shared space for expository blurbs.
Alternatively, the KFADEN wiki homepage itself could serve that function by using comments. I.e., by way of "show me, don't tell me," I just left a comment on the KFADEN wiki homepage asking for more info/starting a conversation there.[2] I don't know how well that can work, but I do know that the comments have a certain advantage over creating a new page: As new participants sign up on the KFADEN page on the wiki, comments/updates to that page will automatically get sent to new sign ups. (You can also opt-out of getting wiki notification updates by changing your preferences on the wiki.)
What are your thoughts?
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/bc98255dd9a8ad19
[1] https://github.com/meitar/kinkforall/
[2] http://kinkforall.pbworks.com/w/page/49161441/KinkForAllDenver#commentnum1328125731
Rebecca Crane
I wonder whether it might make sense to just remove the "Presentation Topic/Interests" column from the pre-registration table entirely, and instead just have a link to a) that person's section on a separate Topic Ideas page or, if that's too complicated to set up, to the Topic Ideas page as a whole. Or, alternatively, we could leave that column in but still somehow have direct links from it to a Topic Ideas page. Maybe I'm being over-ambitious, especially as I'm not sure how to set this up myself.
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Evey
presenter and then link those directly in the spreadsheet on the wiki
(similiar to how some of us put up our website url's). This would be a
great way to maintain transparency of the evolution of topic ideas as
well, because it'd all be right there in the comments.
maymay
Yup. What Evey said.
In fact, I've just gone ahead and built on Ben's page on the wiki by adding headings, a table of contents, and then in a "show me, don't tell me," way of doing things, I've updated my own entry in the sign up table to link to my section of the "Topic Ideas" page. Have a look and let us know what you think?
http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllDenverTopicIdeas#Maymay
I'm still unsure if this is a "good" thing or a "bad" thing (subjective, I know), but it's certainly an inexpensive experiment worth trying out. If it seems to produce positive results, it would be good to create a template out of the KinkForAllDenverTopicIdeas page for future events to copy easily.[0]
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/UsingTheKinkForAllWiki#Generictemplatesyoucancopyandedit
Jeff Jizz
presentation? I have tried with three different browsers and it will
not let me edit.
Question 2: Why are we concerned what people are submitting, and what
the nature of their presentations are going to be?
My understanding from reading the info on the site is you put your
name on a board and people who are attending will get to choose what
they want to see. If censoring at the front end, you limit the
empowerment of those people who are attending to choose. Unless I am
misunderstanding the entire point of this event, the entir point is
that everyone participates and has input. It is of my personal opinion
that it is best to not worry about the nature of what people are
presenting and let the system work as it is designed.
I expect controversy. I expect to hear and see things I do not agree
with. That is what appeals to me about this format. There is a broad
spectrum of scenes converging at once and there is great potential for
better understanding between all of us that may be sustainable long
term under a larger umbrella of promoting a sex positive culture for
all.
As for BDSM specific topics go, let me give everyone a little
perspective as a person who runs events on a regular basis and hasdone
so for several years. The BDSM scene is Denver is huge, and there will
be a huge turnout, specifically of the younger TNG 18-35 crowd because
our scene is going through an evolutionary shift in our culture. Even
people in other groups that have thrown in support on this list, are
or have been in the BDSM scene, though not necessarily advertising it
in the open.
Within the Denver BDSM scene, we are fighting our own battles of what
consent means, what kink means, what gender identity and sexual
orientation look like. I travel all over the USA and I can honestly
say I am not seeing the shiftin mindset happening like it is here in
Denver. It is exciting to watch because we are on the virge of a major
shift in mindset and culture here that is going to hit like a
motherfucking tsunami. The "BDSM" folks that are participating so far
fall into this revolutionary mindsetand are very enlightened on these
topics, yet we also feel marginalized within the queer, GLBT, and
activist communities which do not understand the aspect of our
sexuality and in some cases politicise it as sex negative. Yet we are
activists, we run feminist groups, queer groups, trans groups, and
have worked at Rape crisis centers and given in so many ways outside
the scope of our own sexuality, keeping our mouths shut.
There are lots of walls that BDSM'ers and non BDSM'ers within this
larger umbrella we are defining as "Kink" for the sake of this
discussion in the Denver/Boulder area that need to be broken down,
because there are common goals we all have and the only thing which
seems to divide us is our sexual taboos. I think that is what I find
powerful about the potential of this event, as it could serve as that
first hammer knocking a hole false perceptions we have of eachother.
To me, these types of discussions take away from the important things
like logistics, planning, fundraising etc., especially when there are
processes in placealready to sort this stuff out. In this case, people
attending choosing what they want to have presented. If this is not
the case or how kinkforall is intended, then I suggest it get
clarified very soon. As for how it is in other cities, without naming
other groups, it has been attempted to carbon copy what has worked
elsewhere and apply it to Denver more than once. It never works and
there is a reason. We are not like any other city out there, and that
is what makes this place great.
...
Benjamin Kowalski
Jeff,
If you've made an account, logged in, and hit the "edit" (vs "view") button near the top of the page, then I have no idea what else to try, sorry.
I feel like I should maybe apologize for the lengthy derail about presentation topics. But, having said that, it's felt to me like that conversation has been about people sharing their visions for the kinds of topics they would really be excited to see, rather than trying to censor the stuff that they're not into. (And personally, after hearing more about those visions, I'm more inspired to help make this event happen.)
And yeah, agreed, I think the Denver next-gen folks will come out in force for this, and I can't wait to see it.
Ben
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Rebecca Crane
Ok question 1: How does the freaking site work for adding a
presentation? I have tried with three different browsers and it will
not let me edit.
You have to create an account before you can edit the page - but it just takes a sec. The 'Create an Account' link is on the lefthand side, next to a little blue flag icon.
Question 2: Why are we concerned what people are submitting, and what
the nature of their presentations are going to be?
My understanding from reading the info on the site is you put your
name on a board and people who are attending will get to choose what
they want to see. If censoring at the front end, you limit the
empowerment of those people who are attending to choose.
To be fair, nobody on this list is talking about what people can or can't present. I suspect we're all pretty adamantly anti-censorship. We're just talking about what we think is interesting or boring, and about what we're doing to encourage folks to show up and talk about stuff we'd personally be into hearing about. But we're not "in charge" or anything. We're just the people who happen to be talking on the listserve. Anybody else is free to join the list and talk about it with us, or to not give a shit what anybody on the list thinks and present pretty much whatever they want. :-)
Unless I am
misunderstanding the entire point of this event, the entir point is
that everyone participates and has input.
Nope. You're right. That's exactly how it works. There are a few guidelines: http://kinkforall.pbworks.com/w/page/11154931/TheRulesOfKinkForAll. The big one is that there's no sex or play at KinkForAll. But beyond that, it's totally up to the people presenting to decide what they want to do. Nobody's making any rules in these conversations. We're just talking (admittedly, a lot) about what we personally like (or hate) to see at events like this.
- R
Rebecca Crane
You have to create an account before you can edit the page - but it just takes a sec. The 'Create an Account' link is on the lefthand side, next to a little blue flag icon.
Erk. Sorry. RIGHThand side. I'm tired. :P
maymay
> Jeff,
> If you've made an account, logged in, and hit the "edit" (vs "view") button near the top of the page, then I have no idea what else to try, sorry.
There's a ~1 minute video tutorial for how to sign up on the wiki, linked to from the sign up page on the KFADEN wiki homepage:
http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/HowToSignUpStepByStep
Feel free to spread that link around to anyone who's having trouble signing up.
Also…hm…. Not to open a can of worms if it was already shut, but I feel this needs pointing out:
On Feb 2, 2012, at 7:21 PM, Jeff Jizz wrote:
> Why are we concerned what people are submitting, and what the nature of their presentations are going to be?
>
> Even people in other groups that have thrown in support on this list, are or have been in the BDSM scene, though not necessarily advertising it in the open.
>
> […]
>
> In this case, people attending choosing what they want to have presented. If this is not the case or how kinkforall is intended, then I suggest it get clarified very soon.
I think these sentences betrays the fact that some people have apparently missed the stunningly obvious fact that if there is, as Jeff says, a skew towards BDSM Scene involvement among people who have thrown in support for KinkForAll Denver, then the notion that "people attending can choose what they want to have presented" and *not* have those presentations be focused on BDSM-centric topics is far from likely.
In other words: "no matter how many times people tell me 'it’s all individual choice,' when *everyone* around you is into it, the fact is there’s very little that’s individual about it."[0]
So *that's* "why…we [are] concerned what people are submitting, and what the nature of their presentations are going to be."
> I travel all over the USA and I can honestly say I am not seeing the shiftin mindset happening like it is here in Denver.
>
> […]
>
> As for how it is in other cities, without naming other groups, it has been attempted to carbon copy what has worked elsewhere and apply it to Denver more than once. It never works and there is a reason. We are not like any other city out there, and that is what makes this place great.
I travel all over the USA too,[1] and I can honestly say that I've heard this "we are special" story EVERY. SINGLE. TIME I've gone to a new region. I do not believe it for 1 second. Not even a nano second.
So, pardon my skepticism about Denver's BDSM communities, but I'll believe that "Denver's special" when Denver's BDSM Scene PROVES to me that it is special. Not before. No matter who says it—even you. End of story.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/10422252352/omnipresent-eroticization-can-suck-my-big
[1] http://maybemaimed.com/about/cyberbusking/#shelter
Jeff Jizz
On Feb 4, 4:37 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 2, 2012, at 8:28 PM, Benjamin Kowalski wrote:
>
> > Jeff,
> > If you've made an account, logged in, and hit the "edit" (vs "view") button near the top of the page, then I have no idea what else to try, sorry.
>
> There's a ~1 minute video tutorial for how to sign up on the wiki, linked to from the sign up page on the KFADEN wiki homepage:
>
> http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/HowToSignUpStepByStep
>
> Feel free to spread that link around to anyone who's having trouble signing up.
>
> Also…hm…. Not to open a can of worms if it was already shut, but I feel this needs pointing out:
>
> On Feb 2, 2012, at 7:21 PM, Jeff Jizz wrote:
>
> > Why are we concerned what people are submitting, and what the nature of their presentations are going to be?
>
> > Even people in other groups that have thrown in support on this list, are or have been in the BDSM scene, though not necessarily advertising it in the open.
>
> > […]
>
> > In this case, people attending choosing what they want to have presented. If this is not the case or how kinkforall is intended, then I suggest it get clarified very soon.
>
> I think these sentences betrays the fact that some people have apparently missed the stunningly obvious fact that if there is, as Jeff says, a skew towards BDSM Scene involvement among people who have thrown in support for KinkForAll Denver, then the notion that "people attending can choose what they want to have presented" and *not* have those presentations be focused on BDSM-centric topics is far from likely.
>
> In other words: "no matter how many times people tell me 'it’s all individual choice,' when *everyone* around you is into it, the fact is there’s very little that’s individual about it."[0]
reach out on Fetlife and get a huge response with a lot of support
from that community, you cannot hold it against those people for
getting excited about participating.
>
> So *that's* "why…we [are] concerned what people are submitting, and what the nature of their presentations are going to be."
>
> > I travel all over the USA and I can honestly say I am not seeing the shiftin mindset happening like it is here in Denver.
>
> > […]
>
> > As for how it is in other cities, without naming other groups, it has been attempted to carbon copy what has worked elsewhere and apply it to Denver more than once. It never works and there is a reason. We are not like any other city out there, and that is what makes this place great.
>
> I travel all over the USA too,[1] and I can honestly say that I've heard this "we are special" story EVERY. SINGLE. TIME I've gone to a new region. I do not believe it for 1 second. Not even a nano second.
>
> So, pardon my skepticism about Denver's BDSM communities, but I'll believe that "Denver's special" when Denver's BDSM Scene PROVES to me that it is special. Not before. No matter who says it—even you. End of story.
>
drop by any RACK Room party and you will see for yourself the shift
that has been happening here. Drop by a CSPC party and you will see
the same thing. SKALES yeah them too. I am not going to say it has not
been a battle, for it has been, and we have more fighting to do, but
there are a lot of people in the trenches in our community actively
promoting a more global sex positive culture outside the realm of BDSM
practices. Many of the people on this list supporting this event, who
have put their names up on the list to present, are the same people in
those trenches making a difference week after week creating a new
culture rather than swallowing the bullshit that BDSM traditionalists
feed them. We are not without drama, not all is perfect, but there is
a lot of positive happening here and believe me or not, it is unique.
I think the large support coming from these folks, and the amount of
saturation our scene actually has is very positive and proof enough
for me.
I plan to attend this event myself. In fact I plan to present largely
on what I just mentioned. The people attending are empowered to choose
if they want to hear it or not. That is what appeals to me. If we
start making people feel uncomfortable about even putting an idea out
there, I do not care how well represented it is, it is discriminating
someone based on their sexual practices and subculture. It makes them
feel bad, and it rubs them the wrong way.
If you feel that one aspect of sexuality is more represented than
another, the answer is not to discourage people from participating who
are more represented, or suggest they change what they have to say to
be more palletable, rather the approach should be more outreach to
other scenes. Want more poly people? reach out to them. Want swingers?
We have a lot of them too. Want feminists? How about approaching local
feminist groups and communicate to them that we want their
participation. Want to reach some activist types? Go hit up the
Anarchist Black Cross, Liberate Denver, Thunderdome and Occupy. I bet
there will be some interest. Shit I will help you reach any of these
groups.
I am all for variety. I love it. We need it.
What I am seeing, sadly and I do not believe it is intentional so
please do not view this as an attack as it is meant to be
constructive, is that people are being made to feel like they need to
not participate because they are overly represented, or perhaps out of
fear that what they will say may put people off, to perhaps change
what they are going to say so it is easier for people to hear. To me
this kind of goes against what I read the intent of the event on the
website, and it puts the accountability on those who have been
supportive so far, rather than being looked on as an opportunity to
figure out how to reach out to a more diverse audience.
To me that is where the direction of the conversation needs to be,
outreach. If you need my support in that I am willing to help. I have
very limited time between working 70+ hours a week and running a
business on top of that, but I like what I am seeing here and am
willing to help.
-Jeff
> Blog:http://maybemaimed.com
> Talk show:http://KinkOnTap.com
> Community:http://KinkForAll.org
>
> EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
>
> [1]http://maybemaimed.com/about/cyberbusking/#shelter
maymay
> On Feb 4, 4:37 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I figured it out. It was a security policy on my pc.
> Then is is up to those "unorganizing" to reach other audiences.
>
> Want more poly people? reach out to them. Want swingers?
> We have a lot of them too. Want feminists? How about approaching local
> feminist groups and communicate to them that we want their
> participation. Want to reach some activist types? Go hit up the
> Anarchist Black Cross, Liberate Denver, Thunderdome and Occupy. I bet
> there will be some interest. Shit I will help you reach any of these
> groups.
list? Check these threads out, as some examples, in case you simply
missed the impressive amount of outreach folks have been doing to the
groups you listed:
https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/74cd8fcabb3f2858
https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/568531152de3133e
https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/ebed1fb6ddd368a2
https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/89b539f420ff7a48
> If you
> reach out on Fetlife and get a huge response with a lot of support
> from that community, you cannot hold it against those people for
> getting excited about participating.
so I think that's a patently transparent load of crap. Especially in
an email that positions itself as one trying to make the case that
BDSM traditionalists are less influential because of what a special
and unique snowflake Denver's BDSM community is, this sentence's
thinly-veiled assertion that FetLife is a space for traditional BDSM-
centrism in the Denver area is clear and present evidence to the
contrary.
> Hmm. I am not looking to prove anything to you, but if you want it,
> drop by any RACK Room party and you will see for yourself the shift
> that has been happening here. Drop by a CSPC party and you will see
> the same thing. SKALES yeah them too.
up and look around.
> If you feel that one aspect of sexuality is more represented than
> another, the answer is not to discourage people from participating who
> are more represented, or suggest they change what they have to say to
> be more palletable, rather the approach should be more outreach to
> other scenes.
>
> If we
> start making people feel uncomfortable about even putting an idea out
> there, I do not care how well represented it is, it is discriminating
> someone based on their sexual practices and subculture. It makes them
> feel bad, and it rubs them the wrong way.
be direct: It is my expressly stated intention to make BDSM
"traditionalists" uncomfortable.[0] I *enjoy* it, I'm *good* at it,
and I'm not going to pull any punches in Denver or anywhere else. My
aim is to destroy every "safe space" for privileged BDSM bullshit
anywhere within my reach. And yes, that includes KinkForAll.
So, rubbing people "the wrong way"? Depending on who you're talking
about rubbing the wrong way, hell, that's part of my *success
criterion*.
Cheers,
-maymay
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
Jeff Jizz
"traditional" bdsmers or does it not?
On Feb 5, 6:23 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 5, 1:30 pm, Jeff Jizz <safewe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 4, 4:37 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I figured it out. It was a security policy on my pc.
>
> Cool, I'm glad you got it sorted.
>
> > […]
>
> > Want more poly people? reach out to them. Want swingers?
> > We have a lot of them too. Want feminists? How about approaching local
> > feminist groups and communicate to them that we want their
> > participation. Want to reach some activist types? Go hit up the
> > Anarchist Black Cross, Liberate Denver, Thunderdome and Occupy. I bet
> > there will be some interest. Shit I will help you reach any of these
> > groups.
>
> Um. We *are.* Must I link you to earlier conversations in this mailing
> list? Check these threads out, as some examples, in case you simply
> missed the impressive amount of outreach folks have been doing to the
> groups you listed:
>
maymay
> So when you say the event is open to everyone, does that include "traditional" bdsmers or does it not?
Traditional BDSM'ers are welcome to come and be made uncomfortable by me. ;)
Isaac
hand I was referred to as one of Ben's "BDSM folks", and told that the
KFA was at best lukewarm to BDSM topics, and now I think there's a
crossover in hostility from BDSM traditionalists, to all people
involved in BDSM or BDSM Scenes.
As a person who indentifies as Queer or a Dandy or even Kinky before a
"BDSM'er" I kind of resented that pigeon holing, but chalked it up to
just another form of broad brushing. I quieted down after the notice
that all of the political chat about BDSM was disharmonious to the
purpose of the work space that is the mailing list, but I think I've
hit my limit. The fact is that the majority of the Denver BDSM
community is made of elements that comprise other social strata both
in terms of sex culture and general demographics. Alienating them is
going to send shock waves and signals into each or any of them which
will limit your exposure and penetration into those segments as
conflicting messages of openness and 'selectivity' interact. It's
hard to see when these are all just names on a guest list or facebook
page, but it's all out there. When combined with the discrepancy in
the number of people on FL, FB, or the mailing list and the number of
people on the sign up, I think there's valuable information there that
ought to be looked at and responded to. Personally I had come into
this thinking there was much less in the way of antagonism and
hostility and more in the way of co-operation.
I have to say that this would be the first time I've seen Jeff lumped
in as a BDSM Traditionalist, usually it's the conservative elements
that are pissed with him.
MsSaskia
who identifies as a BDSMer) may be perceived as a traditional or
privileged BDSMer and that I should not have any expectation of there
being a safe space for me depending on how you, personally, identify
me.
>
> > On Feb 4, 4:37 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I figured it out. It was a security policy on my pc.
>
> Cool, I'm glad you got it sorted.
>
> > Then is is up to those "unorganizing" to reach other audiences.
>
> > […]
>
> > Want more poly people? reach out to them. Want swingers?
> > We have a lot of them too. Want feminists? How about approaching local
> > feminist groups and communicate to them that we want their
> > participation. Want to reach some activist types? Go hit up the
> > Anarchist Black Cross, Liberate Denver, Thunderdome and Occupy. I bet
> > there will be some interest. Shit I will help you reach any of these
> > groups.
>
> Um. We *are.* Must I link you to earlier conversations in this mailing
> list? Check these threads out, as some examples, in case you simply
> missed the impressive amount of outreach folks have been doing to the
> groups you listed:
>
MsSaskia
identifying as a BDSMer at KFADEN means that I should not count on
there being any safe space for me.
>
> > On Feb 4, 4:37 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I figured it out. It was a security policy on my pc.
>
> Cool, I'm glad you got it sorted.
>
> > Then is is up to those "unorganizing" to reach other audiences.
>
> > […]
>
> > Want more poly people? reach out to them. Want swingers?
> > We have a lot of them too. Want feminists? How about approaching local
> > feminist groups and communicate to them that we want their
> > participation. Want to reach some activist types? Go hit up the
> > Anarchist Black Cross, Liberate Denver, Thunderdome and Occupy. I bet
> > there will be some interest. Shit I will help you reach any of these
> > groups.
>
> Um. We *are.* Must I link you to earlier conversations in this mailing
> list? Check these threads out, as some examples, in case you simply
> missed the impressive amount of outreach folks have been doing to the
> groups you listed:
>
MsSaskia
function
On Feb 5, 11:27 pm, MsSaskia <pavloviaden...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for clarifying your position, MayMay. I understand that
> identifying as a BDSMer at KFADEN means that I should not count on
> there being any safe space for me.
>
> On Feb 5, 6:23 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 5, 1:30 pm, Jeff Jizz <safewe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 4, 4:37 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I figured it out. It was a security policy on my pc.
>
> > Cool, I'm glad you got it sorted.
>
> > > Then is is up to those "unorganizing" to reach other audiences.
>
> > > […]
>
> > > Want more poly people? reach out to them. Want swingers?
> > > We have a lot of them too. Want feminists? How about approaching local
> > > feminist groups and communicate to them that we want their
> > > participation. Want to reach some activist types? Go hit up the
> > > Anarchist Black Cross, Liberate Denver, Thunderdome and Occupy. I bet
> > > there will be some interest. Shit I will help you reach any of these
> > > groups.
>
> > Um. We *are.* Must I link you to earlier conversations in this mailing
> > list? Check these threads out, as some examples, in case you simply
> > missed the impressive amount of outreach folks have been doing to the
> > groups you listed:
>
RagingAmazon
KFA is a participant created event to a really large degree. As such there is both a hope that we come together and cooperate to make a space that is conducive to the work we want to do both collectively and individually, and an understanding that if something isn't there, you have to bring it. If you want safe space for BDSM, work to create it. I would actually be really curious to talk to you about what safe space looks like, what the component parts are, and how safe space for one grouping plays off of and balances against the discomforts of another.
I said it earlier today here, but the short version is, sure, you can have a session on flogging 101, but why bother? I've seen that workshop so many times I could practically teach it in my sleep. KFA is a chance to talk about aspects of sexuality we don't usually see, and I for one am a lot more curious about what commercially available floggers do to either promote BDSM in the mainstream consciousness or to lower the taboo value of kink.
As for "it is up to those "unorganizing" to reach other audiences." hell to the yeah, and congrats, you just found where you can help! Bringing more voices to the table is hard work (by definition really, silent groups are usually silent for a reason) and while it is awesome that you are reaching out to your home communities, it is just as vital to reach out and bring someone utterly unlike yourself. It'll either be an amazing exercise in cooperation or a great story to tell over beers at a later date.
Best,
Alisa
"'You know zat another term for an icongrapher would be 'photographer?' From the old word Photus in Latation, vhich means--' 'To prance around like an idiot ordering everyone about as if you owened the place.'" ~ Pratchett; the Truth
MsSaskia
I'm reading MayMay saying that he's going to actively work to take
away safe space from traditional or privileged BDSMers, there is no
caveat there about how he decides what he means by traditional or
privileged, or how he's going to make people who identify as BDSMers
uncomfortable. However I define safe space and however I identify as
a BDSMer is less important than someone's stated intention to disrupt
my experience and safety for his own purposes.
If this isn't a safe space for everyone, it's not a safe space for
anyone.
On Feb 6, 12:18 am, RagingAmazon <ragingama...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ms.Saskia (and Jeff, and the rest of ya' all...),
>
> KFA is a participant created event to a really large degree. As such there
> is both a hope that we come together and cooperate to make a space that is
> conducive to the work we want to do both collectively and individually, and
> an understanding that if something isn't there, you have to bring it. If
> you want safe space for BDSM, work to create it. I would actually be
> really curious to talk to you about what safe space looks like, what the
> component parts are, and how safe space for one grouping plays off of and
> balances against the discomforts of another.
>
> I said it earlier today
MsSaskia
people not exactly like myself. Outreach and diversity of voice is
important. Being told that members of my particular group will be
targeted and specifically made to feel unsafe is a great way to make
sure we're aware we're going into a hostile environment, unless we get
the hint and self-select out of the event entirely.
>
> KFA is a participant created event to a really large degree. As such there
> is both a hope that we come together and cooperate to make a space that is
> conducive to the work we want to do both collectively and individually, and
> an understanding that if something isn't there, you have to bring it. If
> you want safe space for BDSM, work to create it. I would actually be
> really curious to talk to you about what safe space looks like, what the
> component parts are, and how safe space for one grouping plays off of and
> balances against the discomforts of another.
>
> I said it earlier today
RagingAmazon
If this isn't a safe space for everyone, it's not a safe space for
anyone.
I, personally, disagree. For example, safe spaces for queer youth are created specifically by being hostile or inaccessible to those who would loudly and abusively denounce homosexuality. Safe spaces for women are created by being actively hostile to predatory men. To create a space that is safe for the discussion and exploration of sexuality theory we have to be at least somewhat discouraging of overt eroticization of that space, though I don't personally believe that being actively hostile to any topic or conversation is in the benefit of KFA because it gets in the way of being free "as in beer," that doesn't change the fact that there are plenty of places to hear about BDSM technique and I plan to attend talks on more interesting-to-me topics.
The problem with, and the opportunity inherent in, a user-created event is that being upset at Maymay, or anyone else for that matter, doesn't really fix or even change anything. This is an action based system, which is to say if you have an idea of how to do more outreach that is awesome and please do that. If you want to create a space that is safe for everyone, well, I will be delighted to be proven wrong and look forward to learning from the actions you take.
Every participant is one voice, if the thing you want is not there take action to bring it there.
Best,
Alisa
"'You know zat another term for an icongrapher would be 'photographer?' From the old word Photus in Latation, vhich means--' 'To prance around like an idiot ordering everyone about as if you owened the place.'" ~ Pratchett; the Truth
maymay
> If this isn't a safe space for everyone, it's not a safe space for anyone.
For the record, KinkForAll creates "public" space, not "safe" space. See, for instance, the Principles page:[0]
> KinkForAll events create a public atmosphere in their location[…].
Rebecca's doing amazing work making KFADEN's public space be *welcoming* space, as well. But "welcoming" is also not definitionally "safe," and it'd be a silly mistake for anyone to confuse these two.
I, personally, think safe spaces are a very useful self-deception, but they are extremely exclusionary by design and thus carry an inherent tension with public space. Simply ask yourself: Safe space FOR WHOM? "Safe space" is just the inverse logic of "dangerous to the community." We don't get to simply reverse the logic of oppressors[1] and call that inclusionary. That's some lazy, uncritical bullshit right there, and in my opinion the extremely pervasive way "safe space" is misrepresented is a damn big problem.
But that's a different rant and maybe a great KinkForAll topic, now that I think about it, so I'll save that for later. In fact, I just added "The Useful 'Safe Space' Self-Deception' to my proposed KinkForAll topic ideas. It'll probably draw heavily from a "diversity of tactics" mindset.[2][3]
And just before I hit send, I noticed Alisa said this much nicer than I did[4] as I was writing this email.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
[0] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/ThePrinciplesOfKinkForAll
[1] http://maybemaimed.com/2010/03/27/addressing-donna-m-hughes-and-margaret-brooks-concerns-over-kinkforall-unconferences/
[2] https://twitter.com/maymaym/status/149695715621355520
[3] https://twitter.com/maymaym/status/152944253943820288
[4] https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/71290eb929264fb3#msg_c14b63be56f4e578
Jeff Jizz
Very good blog entry. I agree 100%. The answer is more speech, less
censorship.
As for the overall discourse that is happening I am done with this
thread. I think it detracts from the overall energy of promoting the
event. I will have to take the event at its word that everyone is
welcome and hope that is the case.
As an anarchist kinkster who has actively worked to provide a safe sex
positive space for kinksters, tng'ers, women, trans, queer, and anyone
in between, including bdsm'ers and the leather community, it is my
hope this event allows us to find potential areas to work together
across our various communities.
The last thing I want to see is this turn into pro bdsm vs anti bdsm
and take energy away from actual outreach and planning. If that is
what it turns into, it will be dissapointing and counter productive.
>
> KFA is a participant created event to a really large degree. As such there
> is both a hope that we come together and cooperate to make a space that is
> conducive to the work we want to do both collectively and individually, and
> an understanding that if something isn't there, you have to bring it. If
> you want safe space for BDSM, work to create it. I would actually be
> really curious to talk to you about what safe space looks like, what the
> component parts are, and how safe space for one grouping plays off of and
> balances against the discomforts of another.
>
> I said it earlier today
MsSaskia
intent to destroy "safe spaces" for "privileged BDSM bullshit...".
You get to use terms like "safe spaces", indicate that you're going to
destroy something you say doesn't exist in the first place, and don't
define what exactly "privileged BDSM bullshit" is. My restating your
language is spun as some kind of naivetee'.
I'd quite naively chosen to participate in this, thinking I might have
something to offer. I see that I was mistaken.
"Maybe you don't know this about me yet, so now's a good time for me
to
be direct: It is my expressly stated intention to make BDSM
"traditionalists" uncomfortable.[0] I *enjoy* it, I'm *good* at it,
and I'm not going to pull any punches in Denver or anywhere else. My
aim is to destroy every "safe space" for privileged BDSM bullshit
anywhere within my reach. And yes, that includes KinkForAll.
So, rubbing people "the wrong way"? Depending on who you're talking
about rubbing the wrong way, hell, that's part of my *success
criterion*. "
> On Feb 5, 2012, at 11:23 PM, MsSaskia wrote:
>
> > If this isn't a safe space for everyone, it's not a safe space for anyone.
>
> For the record, KinkForAll creates "public" space, not "safe" space. See, for instance, the Principles page:[0]
>
> > KinkForAll events create a public atmosphere in their location[…].
>
> Rebecca's doing amazing work making KFADEN's public space be *welcoming* space, as well. But "welcoming" is also not definitionally "safe," and it'd be a silly mistake for anyone to confuse these two.
>
> I, personally, think safe spaces are a very useful self-deception, but they are extremely exclusionary by design and thus carry an inherent tension with public space. Simply ask yourself: Safe space FOR WHOM? "Safe space" is just the inverse logic of "dangerous to the community." We don't get to simply reverse the logic of oppressors[1] and call that inclusionary. That's some lazy, uncritical bullshit right there, and in my opinion the extremely pervasive way "safe space" is misrepresented is a damn big problem.
>
> But that's a different rant and maybe a great KinkForAll topic, now that I think about it, so I'll save that for later. In fact, I just added "The Useful 'Safe Space' Self-Deception' to my proposed KinkForAll topic ideas. It'll probably draw heavily from a "diversity of tactics" mindset.[2][3]
>
> And just before I hit send, I noticed Alisa said this much nicer than I did[4] as I was writing this email.
>
> Cheers,
> -maymay
> Blog:http://maybemaimed.com
> Talk show:http://KinkOnTap.com
> Community:http://KinkForAll.org
>
> [0]http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/ThePrinciplesOfKinkForAll
> [3]https://twitter.com/maymaym/status/152944253943820288
maymay
> I see that it was silly of me to use your own language and stated
> intent to destroy "safe spaces" for "privileged BDSM bullshit...".
> You get to use terms like "safe spaces", indicate that you're going to
> destroy something you say doesn't exist in the first place, and don't
> define what exactly "privileged BDSM bullshit" is.
I have written tomes about this, Saskia. You're more than welcome to peruse my archives and I'd caution you against thinking that I don't define my terms. You could start here:
http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/16036372049/the-bdsm-scenes-whiteness-is-classism-at-work
I agree with Jeff; I'm done with this thread. I'm gonna go continue my work on getting other people I know in Denver to help us spread the word to additional diverse communities now.[0]
I'm very much looking forward to seeing the fruits of our collective effort on that front. :)
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] https://www.facebook.com/meitar.moscovitz/posts/10151240602170005
Benjamin Kowalski
So, to other folks out there on the list who have BDSM interests: I'll be there; you won't be alone; I'll be interested in what you have to say.
Ben
Jeff Jizz
At present time I am planning to be there as well.
On Feb 6, 12:18 pm, Benjamin Kowalski <benjamin.a.kowal...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> legible as someone with an interest in BDSM). maymay, if my presence is
> going to make the event worse for you, I'm truly sorry, but at this point I
> feel way too emotionally invested in the event to just opt out.
>
> So, to other folks out there on the list who have BDSM interests: I'll be
> there; you won't be alone; I'll be interested in what you have to say.
>
> Ben
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:12 AM, MsSaskia wrote:
>
> > > I see that it was silly of me to use your own language and stated
> > > intent to destroy "safe spaces" for "privileged BDSM bullshit...".
> > > You get to use terms like "safe spaces", indicate that you're going to
> > > destroy something you say doesn't exist in the first place, and don't
> > > define what exactly "privileged BDSM bullshit" is.
>
> > I have written tomes about this, Saskia. You're more than welcome to
> > peruse my archives and I'd caution you against thinking that I don't define
> > my terms. You could start here:
>
maymay
> For what it's worth, I myself still fully intend to participate (and to be legible as someone with an interest in BDSM). maymay, if my presence is going to make the event worse for you, I'm truly sorry, but at this point I feel way too emotionally invested in the event to just opt out.
Whaaaa???
I'd be disappointed if you *didn't* participate, Ben. You've done so much great stuff for KFADEN so far and I'm excited to meet you. Moreover, I'm really eager to see what you have to say at KinkForAll Denver. :)
Also, in case it isn't clear to anyone reading, *I* am a "BDSM'er",[0][1] so it sounds ridiculous to me that people think "BDSM'ers" (instead of what I actually said, which was "privileged BDSM bullshit")[2] is going to make the event worse for me.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://maybemaimed.com/2009/07/17/i-too-kink-on-bdsm-stereotypes/
[1] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/03/10/its-foggy-today-how-bdsm-and-sex-can-be-emotional-self-medication-in-a-cruel-world/
[2] https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/71290eb929264fb3#msg_d5bf8b72a10fd4a4
Siren Sage
just pissed.
Mistress Saskia: maymay is only one of MANY people involved in this
event. I'm personally extremely annoyed with his antagonistic
bullshit in this thread, while at the same time mostly agreeing with
the meat of his position. That being said, I truly hope you do not
give up on this event just because of one annoying (likely just as
privileged as you and I) person. I am sure that there are many more
folks like myself who are excited to attend your presentations and
help in the creation of a space that is welcoming to all.
~Siren
Rebecca Crane
Want to reach some activist types? Go hit up theAnarchist Black Cross, Liberate Denver, Thunderdome and Occupy. I bet
there will be some interest. Shit I will help you reach any of these
groups.
Jeff, that would be AWESOME! Thank you.
I will totally make an effort to make it to the Occupy/Thunderdome event on Feb 11th. And I think Maya is planning to hit up the 27 Social Center to talk with people there. It would be super helpful if you spread the word with the folks you know in those orgs, too. Thanks so much! :-)
- R
maymay
> Mistress Saskia: maymay is only one of MANY people involved in this
> event. I'm personally extremely annoyed with his antagonistic
> bullshit in this thread, while at the same time mostly agreeing with
> the meat of his position.
Siren,
I'd love to hear more about why you describe my antagonism as "bullshit" while at the same time mostly "agreeing with the meat" of what I'm saying. I find antagonism very valuable, nor do I find it to be the inverse of intimacy, as is so often mistakenly believed.[0]
But that's a chat for another time, so given the opportunity, I'd love to sit with you over coffee to hear more of your views about this. Maybe Peet's,[1] and I'll treat. :)
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/4711172738/a-visual-representation-of-paul-grahams-hierarchy
[1] http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=Peet's+Coffee+%26+Tea&hl=en&cid=8939250551649647709
Jeff Jizz
You are really making it hard for several people to feel motivated to
promote and participate in this event. I get that you have resentments
towards the scene, but you are alienating allies who you know nothing
about and using your position of privilege which comes from the
influence you hold over this event being the founder to exhibit the
same behavior that you have written "Tomes" about which just
reinforces the behavior you despise.
Saskia is out, though I am trying to get her to reconsider as she has
done more to build community and fight for the rights of marginalized
voices in this scene than anyone I know, and others can vouch for
that. Evey is out and she is another one of those voices. I am on the
fence, and others are upset. The only thing you have accomplished is
to make people not feel welcome. But hey you pissed people off and I
am feeding your ego by responding.
I am done with this group. I may show up to present, I may not. I
actually have a lot of good shit to say that actually expresses very
similar views as you express in your "tomes"
This event is a good idea, I respect so many of the people involved.
There is a lot that could be accomplished and that is why Saskia and I
were the first to donate, and also encourage others to do the same. I
am having a hard time getting past you and your treatment of others
and myself, because I know it is not reflective of the rest of the
group. If you do not want to see or acknowledge how you are creating
an unwelcome atmosphere, I cannot make you own it, nor do I want to. I
am sure you feel justified. I bet this is not new for you and is how
you have operated in the past. Have fun with that.
On Feb 7, 2:10 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:18 PM, Siren Sage wrote:
>
> > Mistress Saskia: maymay is only one of MANY people involved in this
> > event. I'm personally extremely annoyed with his antagonistic
> > bullshit in this thread, while at the same time mostly agreeing with
> > the meat of his position.
>
> Siren,
>
> I'd love to hear more about why you describe my antagonism as "bullshit" while at the same time mostly "agreeing with the meat" of what I'm saying. I find antagonism very valuable, nor do I find it to be the inverse of intimacy, as is so often mistakenly believed.[0]
>
> But that's a chat for another time, so given the opportunity, I'd love to sit with you over coffee to hear more of your views about this. Maybe Peet's,[1] and I'll treat. :)
>
> Cheers,
> -maymay
> Blog:http://maybemaimed.com
> Talk show:http://KinkOnTap.com
> Community:http://KinkForAll.org
>
> EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
>
> [1]http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=Peet's+Coffee+%26+Tea&hl=en&cid=8...
maymay
> You are really making it hard for several people to feel motivated to
> promote and participate in this event. I get that you have resentments
> towards the scene, but you are alienating allies who you know nothing
> about and using your position of privilege which comes from the
> influence you hold over this event being the founder to exhibit the
> same behavior that you have written "Tomes" about which just
> reinforces the behavior you despise.
argument holds up to any scrutiny? I mean, really? You're right, I
don't know much about you (looking forward to that changing, by the
way!), but I know you're smarter than this paragraph makes you out to
be. :)
> I may show up to present, I may not. I
> actually have a lot of good shit to say that actually expresses very
> similar views as you express in your "tomes"
you do, I'd love to see it and I hope I manage to sit and listen in on
your session. (Really.)
> This event is a good idea, I respect so many of the people involved.
> There is a lot that could be accomplished and that is why Saskia and I
> were the first to donate, and also encourage others to do the same.
well as a part of my commitment to helping see KFADEN through.
> I
> am having a hard time getting past you and your treatment of others
> and myself, because I know it is not reflective of the rest of the
> group. If you do not want to see or acknowledge how you are creating
> an unwelcome atmosphere, I cannot make you own it, nor do I want to.
WHOM? (Aka. "Safe space" for WHOM? "Dangerous" to WHOSE community?)
Until someone says something *new* about this stuff, I don't see any
reason to waste time rehashing it.
> I
> am sure you feel justified. I bet this is not new for you and is how
> you have operated in the past. Have fun with that.
http://maybemaimed.com/2010/11/27/community-fuck-the-community-this-isnt-for-them-anyway/
I wasn't always this antagonistic towards privileged BDSM bullshit,
but I sure am glad that I am now. I'm pretty committed to ripping that
crap out of existence everywhere it crops up. And it sounds like you
are, too, which is TOTALLY GREAT! I don't actually care that much if
you or other people like me or not, I just want to bombard privilege-
denying BDSM'ers with as many metaphorical stones as I can--and yes, I
do have fun with that. ;)
Moreover, I'd love your help! :D And I'm grateful for all the
reminders that I am, and possibly *we* are, not the only one(s) who
feel this way.[1][2] :)
ANYWAY, I've already said I'm through with this thread, and then I
posted again, for which I apologize. I'm gonna re-commit to keeping
this discussion off-list, since I agree with others who've voiced
their views that this thread is taking too much attention away from
other important KFADEN threads, like the new press thread,[3] to name
just one.
For anyone who wants to continue this, I may find myself over at
Alisa's blog post[4] (which I also propose as a great place to move
this, in general) when I get some extra time.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog:http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show:http://KinkOnTap.com
Community:http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[1] https://twitter.com/maymaym/status/166989058780839936
[2] https://twitter.com/maymaym/status/166989903597547520
[3] https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/90df7b3aa53d0b0
[4] http://kinkinexile.wordpress.com/2012/02/05/baby-with-the-bath-water/