- R
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> AWESOME!!! I am so glad to hear that so many people have chipped in to get all these elements off the ground, so to speak. The ideas for sessions sound exciting too, especially the one about pre-Christian era sexualities.
Seconded! One of the things that I've been doing to encourage people who are expressing interest on the wiki is emailing a few of them privately as they sign up with their email address and letting them know how excited I am about their proposed topics. :)
This is a great way to connect to one another before the event, voice your support for topics you're interested in, and give some people early feedback on which topics they've proposed sound interesting to others, too.
For instance, Eveybird's suggested several different topics,[0] but the one I'm really excited to hear about is the "intersections of sexuality & mental health" one. I'm WAY more interested in that than, for instance, Eveybird's suggested topic of "rape play," which sounds far too BDSM-centric and, to my mind, boring at a KinkForAll. Not to say that won't be a welcome topic, I'm sure lots of folks would find it interesting, but there are SO many places where "rape play" is talked about and far too few where "intersections of sexuality & mental health" are, so I wanted to let Eveybird know how much more the latter piqued my interest.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://kinkforall.pbworks.com/w/page/49161441/KinkForAllDenver#KinkForAllDenver—PreregistrationSignup
> Maybe they could be combined? I know I'd love to go to a session on "rape play as it demonstrates the intersections of sexuality and mental health" ;-)
Well, clearly, tat's for Eveybird to decide.
I've already voiced my preference for *not* rape play. Like I said, there are far too many places where that's already discussed, and it's a very BDSM-centric thing, which is a common misunderstanding about KinkForAll.[0] Kink is not BDSM. These words are not synonyms and I believe it's actively harmful to conflate the two terms,[1] and frankly I would personally like to see less BDSM-centrism at KinkForAll, period.[2]
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://followsthesun.com/defining-kink-kinkforall-boston-and-beyond/
[1] http://maybemaimed.com/2010/10/05/honor-thy-language-kinky-is-an-adjective-not-an-activity/
[2] http://maybemaimed.com/2009/05/03/bdsm-versus-kink-nobody-but-your-sex-partner-cares-how-you-fuck/
Hey, voyager: "rape play as it demonstrates the intersections of sexuality and mental health"? I'm really hoping the implication here was accidental.
Also, maymay, I guess I'd been assuming that what you meant by "BDSM-centrism" was the harmful attitude that there are two kinds of people, the ones in "the Scene" (ugh) and "vanillas" (also ugh), and the assumption that it's the former who will be centered at this event. But it sounds like you also mean that you'd straight up like to see fewer BDSM-related topics; am I reading you correctly?
--Ben
On Jan 31, 2012 3:57 PM, "maymay" <bitethea...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jan 31, 2012, at 2:52 PM, voyag...@gmail.com wrote:
> Maybe they could be combined? I know I'...
Well, clearly, tat's for Eveybird to decide.
I've already voiced my preference for *not* rape play. Like I said, there are far too many places where that's already discussed, and it's a very BDSM-centric thing, which is a common misunderstanding about KinkForAll.[0] Kink is not BDSM. These words are not synonyms and I believe it's actively harmful to conflate the two terms,[1] and frankly I would personally like to see less BDSM-centrism at KinkForAll, period.[2]
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://Kink...
[0] http://followsthesun.com/defining-kink-kinkforall-boston-and-beyond/
[1] http://maybemaimed.com/2010/10/05/honor-thy-language-kinky-is-an-adjective-not-an-activity/
[2] http://maybemaimed.com/2009/05/03/bdsm-versus-kink-nobody-but-your-sex-partner-cares-how-you-fuck/
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T...
In a word: yes. You are.
WARNING. RANT:
The Scene (ugh) is doing enough (legitimately GOOD) work around elucidating the issues and challenges and benefits of BDSM more generally. There is absolutely no reason why KinkForAll (Denver or elsewhere) needs to do that. If we try to then we'll simply be reinventing a wheel; and a damned problematic one,[0] at that! And I am not interested in supporting the reinvention of wheels. ;)
That's why I'm so excited by Eveybird's (as an example, although there are others) topic suggestion on the wiki. I'd even remove the "…and kink" part of that intersectional title, "Sexuality & Mental Health (and kink)", because my knee-jerk presumption is that the "and kink" part was simply there to make it sound more relevant to BDSM, when that is, in fact, totally unnecessary here. (But that's obviously not my place; it's Eveybird's session and they can do with it what they like!)
This is also why I'm so much more interested in Isaac's "Designer Flesh: Body Mod as Beauty" topic proposal[1] over Isaac's very stereotypical-sounding (and thus worse-than-boring, to me) "non-sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance," as an example.
This is not to say topics like "rape play" or "non-sensual sadism" aren't welcome at KinkForAll, but I, for one, am actively invested in discouraging that kind of topic for the aforementioned reasons, and then some, and I'm already taking actions I feel would make it less likely that people who intend to do things like piercing demos and other stereotypical stuff I see all over the place can grok that KinkForAll is an environment that was at least intended (if not successfully executed as) to be a space for other things. For example, when I participate in KFADEN, if I see an open session slot and the only full slots are stereotypical-sounding sessions, I'm going to do a hot-talk on something totally different just to give people the opportunity to make their own choice about what they want to participate in, and so that I can use the unused space for my own purposes.
And I encourage others to do this for their own interests, too. That's *the point* of an event like this.
The fact that this is a consistent issue and one I've been having conversations about *for years* is also why I am so adamant about stressing the de-eroticized nature of KinkForAll events. I am, bluntly, sick and tired of the way sexuality events and the communities that support them tend to eroticize goddamn fucking everything all the goddamn fucking time, because I see that, too, as actively harmful.[2]
*Deep breathe.*
END RANT.
Sorry if that sounded unduly brusque. These frustrations are not just a pet peeve. Working to change these perceptions is literally what keeps me alive. Hence the emotional overtones in my writing.
FWIW, I'm really excited about KFADEN because it sounds like a lot of the interest is coming from people who have so an incredibly broad range of knowledge and that is a very good sign for making magic happen. By way of analogy, I'm far more interested in what happens when a mathematician, a social worker, and a painter tried tackling a problem than what would happen if three business owners tried tackling the same problem, because the former team has more potential for magic, while the latter team is infinitely more likely to reinvent wheels.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/16036372049/the-bdsm-scenes-whiteness-is-classism-at-work
[1] https://twitter.com/maymaym/status/162394060206768129
[2] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/10422252352/omnipresent-eroticization-can-suck-my-big
I was thinking like debunking the myths that people who do this kind
of play are mentally disturbed...? It didn't really quite come out
right.
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@ "those who fail to reread
@ are obliged to read the same story everywhere"
@ -- Roland Barthes, S/Z (1970)
@ voyag...@gmail.com
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> maymay, you wrote: "The Scene (ugh) is doing enough (legitimately GOOD) work..." Oh, the hell it is.
All right, you caught me. :) I was being "nice." I don't think The Scene is doing "good work," I think it's awful and I'm so fed up with it I'm almost ready to burn it down.[0]
> You seem to be saying that these particular BDSM-related talks don't need to happen at KFA because they could happen instead in mainstream BDSM venues, but I think you're being too optimistic there. Let use Isaac as an example, since I'm fairly sure he won't mind... he'd proposed talking about how phrases like "sensual dominance" are deployed in the mainstream Scene, and especially in its attempts at education/outreach, in a way that centers middle-class hetero male-dom couples and renders everyone else (even more) invisible. I really, honestly don't think this would fly in a mainstream BDSM conference, and not only because that culture is prone to gatekeeping and privilege-blindness and so forth, but also because the conventional class/conference model lends itself more, by its very economic structure, to topics that are flashy and sexy and have broad appeal.
Just to make sure we're on the same page, are we both talking about this row in the sign up table on the Wiki?[1]
> 11. Isaac i.w....@gmail.com Unorganize(tea service, water pitchers, electrical cords & power strips), attend, maybe present Kink as worship/spirituality(?), "non-sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance" (?), Designer Flesh: Body Mod as Beauty
If so, then you have information about Isaac's intentions that I do not. Maybe you know Isaac personally? I do not.
If what's behind the words "non-sensual sadism vs sensual dominance" is an attempt to inspire conversation about the piss-poor way the BDSM Scene does education and outreach while confronting its privilege-blindness, as you describe, then I think you're totally right: that wouldn't fly in a mainstream BDSM Scene conference. Moreover, like you, I'd also personally encourage that kind of discussion happening at a KinkForAll, or anywhere else for that matter. (It actually reminds me of prior KinkForAll sessions such as "Yellow Fever: Being an Asian Woman in the West"[2] at KFANYC2 and "The Dangers of Misrepresentation" from KFAPVD[3] which, IIRC, were both run by people who identified as submissive women and touched on challenges they face in mainstream BDSM Scene culture that I've rarely heard articulated in The Scene's spaces for exactly the reasons you talk about, Ben.)
But a much-needed and relatively subversive topic was not what I "heard" Isaac going for when I read the words "non-sensual sadism vs. sensual dominance," though, so your understanding of what he'd proposed is vastly different from mine.
For someone like me (and I'd be willing to wager that for many people who are trying to discern what KFADEN is going to be like) getting to your interpretation would require a LOT of reading between the lines. While I'm obviously hyper-vigilant about BDSM Scene bullshit that I'm ready to brace against it whenever I see it, mainstream BDSM Scene-State members[4] wouldn't be bracing, they'd be reading something like Isaac's topic and if their interpretation is anything close to mine, they're likely thinking, "Oh yay, another presentation about styles of sadism and dominance that I can go to and pick up more tips and tricks about how to play with my new toys."
In other words, all these topics that sound "stereotypically BDSM-related" to me remind me of the kind of prior KinkForAll sessions I've been wanting to see less and less of, such as "Loving Violence: The Power of Punching" at KFANYC2,[5] which sounds like it could be a really good opener to talk about the way BDSM *is* violence even though the BDSM Scene denies that fact,[6] or it could've been a way to talk about symbology of violence and why so many activist symbols use fists in the air to signify resistance, or it could've been a way to talk about a ton of fascinating totally awesome topics.
But instead it was yet another presentation about play punching presented by one person who likes to do it[7] to a room full of other people who already know what it is and one person named Sam who was so left out of the loop, lacking BDSM Scene context and experience, that he wrote a blog post about how confused it all made him and how he didn't feel comfortable asking anyone in the session for further clarifications because of how cliquey and unapproachably nerdy it all felt to him.[8] (And I'm glad he wrote that, although his website seems down at the moment.)
> I'm hesitant to say too much about Eveybird's topics, since I'm not sure how she feels about being held up as an example. But I guess I will say that every *other* presentation on rape play I've come across, in more conventional conference or workshop settings, has been thoroughly shaped by this same pressure to be sexified and pandering, and it sounds like Eveybird is paying a lot of attention to the ways in which the unconventional format of KFA creates space to have different (and, to me, more interesting) kinds of conversations.
I don't know Eveybird and obviously don't know her intentions. That said, I've never been to a session whose topic was presented as "rape play" that I liked. My criteria for "liking" sessions is explained, somewhat, above. That's part of my past experience that I hope makes clear why I'm so much more interested in hearing about "Sexuality and Mental Health" than "rape play" from Eveybird, and why I jump at every opportunity to encourage those kinds of less mainstream, more intersectional topics whenever I can.
But, obviously, people are going to come and do what they like. I'm just trying to stack the deck against the mainstream BDSM Scene garbage. :)
> So, if your vision for KFADEN is that these kinds of conversations are de-emphasized, I respect that and give it a lot of weight. But I don't think they're "stereotyped" conversations that are already happening in the mainstream BDSM scene. On the contrary, I think the only places they *can* happen are in KFA or some other space that looks like it (grassroots, accessible, cross-pollination among communities, etc etc).
>
> Warmly,
> Ben
Point. :) We probably have different understandings of what these particular topic suggestions are suggesting. And I hope it goes without saying that my vision needn't be your vision, of course.
To sum up: I'm equally invested in understanding the perlocutionary effects of having a list of topics dominated by things like "Temporary body mod/art (would need volunteer bodies willing to be stapled/sutured/pierced)" as I am in discouraging the presence of privilege-denying mainstream BDSM Scene bullshit. Because when the words "non-sensual sadism vs sensual dominance" appear in isolation, they are less likely to be interpreted by people who are trying to discern what KFADEN is going to be like the way I interpreted them than they are when those words appear next to a topic suggestion that reads "Temporary body mod/art (would need volunteer bodies willing to be stapled/sutured/pierced)."
I hope that makes sense. :\
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/07/16/on-letting-the-world-burn/
[1] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllDenver
[2] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/NewYorkCity2Schedule
[3] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllProvidenceSchedule
[4] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/10/05/re-caste-ing-alternative-sexuality-a-class-analysis-of-social-status-in-the-bdsm-scene-arse-elektronika-2011-screw-the-system/
[5] http://wiki.kinkforall.org/KinkForAllNewYorkCity2Schedule
[6] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/4714863852/help-me-desimplify-deconstruct-rape-and-sex
[7] http://justalovetap.wordpress.com/2009/08/09/loving-violence-the-power-of-punching/
[8] http://www.ivyleaguepornographer.com/archives/715
This is an extremely neat conversation! I want it to have room to continue, and I am SO pleased to see the KFA list becoming a space to think through these ideas.
They are, however, not what you'd call "Lightning Quick," at this point. As somebody not in the convo, I don't know what to call it or where to move it. Just that I want it to keep going, with a subject line all it's own.
Seriously Wishing I could Make it to Denver,
Emms
Maybe as people start to flesh out their topics, we should put together a separate list that has room for short expository blurbs?
> Ok, I'm getting caught up a bit here, and while I'm not quite a total
> stranger to Google Groups, I'm still fairly newbish, so please pardon
> my dust.
Oh, yay, hi Isaac! :)
> Ben and I do know each personally, and we've talked about the
> underlying ideas I've had rattling in my head. Frankly, maymay is
> absolutely correct, and the title I used as a descriptor: ("non-
> sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance") is yawn inspiring and also not
> terribly clear. They're terms that I've seen used particularly
> locally in the Scene and come directly out of works like Loving
> Dominant, SM101 and the pervasive sense of hetero-normative male led
> relationships and sexuality that drips off of books like them and
> their proponents become identifiable simply by that language. If
> anything maymay's reaction to the title shows just how thoroughly
> entrenched the ideas of "sensual dominance" are in stereotypical BDSM
> culture, and how much they deserve to be challenged. It's not merely a
> feminist issue of male vs female dominance, but one that has aspects
> of switch, queer, bisexual and trans invisibility behind it. I meant
> for the quotes to denote a certain air or irony in using those words,
> but alas, using a wiki as a notepad does not lend well to that style
> of communication.
>
> […]
This is really good to hear. Because, *yes, this.*
> I'd be happy beyond belief, by the way, to have suggestions on
> a title for a talk that ran along those lines.
When I fear irony or satire won't come across, which is often and especially likely to be true for sensitive topics like this, I'm simply direct. For instance, I put together a workshop called "Remaking Male Submission" and it's subtitle was intended to clarify any potential misunderstandings: "Confronting Sexism in BDSM".[0]
You might consider the utility of a similar pattern. For example: "Unpacking 'Sensual Dominance': The Heteronormativity of Loving Male Dominant versus Uncaring Female Sadist"
If I saw something like that in a topic list, I'd probably have emailed you directly with butterflies in my stomach. :)
> Speaking for Denver in my experience, I expect that most of the BDSM
> overlap we're likely to see at KFA are likely to be more open to
> expressions other than the "stereotypical bullshit" simply because of
> the structure of the scene here and the personal involvements. I
> expect we may see some faux pas like assuming that kink is really
> another term for BDSM, or that communication is just negotiating
> better, but by and large I think these will be matters of exposure and
> learning and that the educational experience KFA has the potential to
> be is key in teaching others about that. There may be a huge push to
> be seen as and present yourself as an educator here in Denver in the
> BDSM scene as a form of self promotion, but by and large I've seen
> more people be open to alternate views here, than any other city I've
> participated publicly with.
This is also really good to hear. I've never been to Boulder or Denver, and I'm very curious to see in what ways it's different from other regions of the world I've been to and heard about, and in what ways it's not. :)
Anyway, it's possible continuing this discussion would be easier to follow if we moved it to the new thread Emma suggested.[1]
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://maybemaimed.com/seminars/#remaking-male-submission
[1] https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/71290eb929264fb3
On Feb 1, 2012, at 8:17 AM, Benjamin Kowalski wrote:Just to make sure we're on the same page, are we both talking about this row in the sign up table on the Wiki?[1]
> 11. Isaac i.w....@gmail.com Unorganize(tea service, water pitchers, electrical cords & power strips), attend, maybe present Kink as worship/spirituality(?), "non-sensual sadism" vs "sensual dominance" (?), Designer Flesh: Body Mod as Beauty
If so, then you have information about Isaac's intentions that I do not. Maybe you know Isaac personally? I do not.
To sum up: I'm equally invested in understanding the perlocutionary effects of having a list of topics dominated by things like "Temporary body mod/art (would need volunteer bodies willing to be stapled/sutured/pierced)" as I am in discouraging the presence of privilege-denying mainstream BDSM Scene bullshit. Because when the words "non-sensual sadism vs sensual dominance" appear in isolation, they are less likely to be interpreted by people who are trying to discern what KFADEN is going to be like the way I interpreted them than they are when those words appear next to a topic suggestion that reads "Temporary body mod/art (would need volunteer bodies willing to be stapled/sutured/pierced)."
I hope that makes sense. :\
Rebecca hit it pretty much on the head- I'm a woman who has
participated actively in rape fantasies as a "bottom" with multiple
partners and wants to share the knowledge I've accumulated over the
years. [...] I had hoped to create a more
welcoming environment for those interested in the subject to be able
to learn and ask questions from someone a little less dominant than
others out there teaching on the same subject. Also, totally open to
suggestion on this one.
4. "Intersections of Kink, Sexuality, Community and Mental Health"
I went to a conference in Minnesota this last fall where they had put
together a panel of mental health professionals to discuss managing
varying facets of mental health while being a participating member of
the kink/bdsm community. The panel started with audience members going
around and introducing themselves and why they had come to the
discussion. What ended up happening was several members of their local
community coming to the panel with the aim of finding out "how to keep
the crazies out of their spaces." There are presenters and spaces that
are making progress in creating more welcoming environemnts for those
with physical disabilities, but mental health disorders can at times
become "invisible" and our language and actions as a community (and it
this i mean ALL communities- kinky, queer, poly, sex-positive,
swingers, etc) can be incredibly divisive. I don't have much
educational experience in psychology beyond a handful of child
development undergrad courses, however I am a queer, poly, kinky woman
who has lived with panic and anxiety disorder for the entirety of my
adult life. There are challenges in balancing mental health issues
with partners, play partners, and the community at large. I'm really
interested in starting a positive discussion on how we can be better
advocates for inclusivity and awareness with regards to mental health
in our own sexuality as well as whichever community we call home.
Hope that gives a better idea of what I was getting at. Also- I suck
with words sometimes. If anyone has recommendations on more suitable
working titles I'm all ears!
-Evey
On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Evey wrote:
> I think most of what I wanted to address has already been said by
> voices I oft regard as much more eloquent than my own. […]
>
> A break down of my topic ideas (in an effort to answer questions from
> above):
>
> 1. "Long term impacts of consensual non-consent/take-downs/rape play"
> […]
>
> 2. "Rape Play"
> […]
>
> 3. "Establishing personal "Non-negotiables""
> […]
>
> If
> you're familiar with CunningMinx's "User Manuel", it's somewhat
> similar.
Yeah. :) That's similar, also, to my "maymay manual,"[0] but about a different subject.
> 4. "Intersections of Kink, Sexuality, Community and Mental Health"
>
> […]
>
> Hope that gives a better idea of what I was getting at. Also- I suck
> with words sometimes. If anyone has recommendations on more suitable
> working titles I'm all ears!
>
> -Evey
I just wanna say that this all *does* give me a much clearer picture of where you're coming from, and I'm really interested in getting a chance to come to one of the sessions you lead. Also, while you have twice said in not so many words that you are not so confident in your ability to use words, I think you are underestimating yourself. This email was really explanatory and, all-around, just great. :)
For personal reasons, I will probably avoid the "long term impacts of consensual non-consent" and "rape play" presentations if you end up doing those, but I want you to know that I'm genuinely really glad to hear that you, as a "bottom," are taking it upon yourself to talk about those issues from a bottom's/submissive's perspective in a deep way.
There is only one other person who is actively doing the kind of "building resources for bottoms" like this, and that person is in Chicago. (By the way, if you don't know Rica, I think you two would find a LOT of common ground. Check out her website!)[1]
Also, it is personally difficult for me to attend and participate in discussions that are heavily informed by BDSM that are about bottoming/being submissive/etc. when they are lead by submissive women. And I'm sorry because I know that is a personal scar, not your issue, but it's there and I simply haven't got the energy to participate in these sorts of discussions because, as a submissive man, I consistently feel sidelined and reminded that my access to the kinds of experiences I want and that you seem to say that you have a lot of, is too painful to get over right now.[2]
That being said, good luck, no matter what you choose to do! Maybe you and I can have coffee and learn more about one another in a slower-paced, 1-on-1 kind of setting. :) In fact, one of the reasons KinkForAll was designed as a fast-paced, can't-see-it-all kind of event is to encourage people to connect *AFTER* the event is over. And I hope it works out that way for us, and other participants, as well.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] http://status.maymay.net/tag/maymaymanual
[1] http://fromthebottom.org/
[2] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/12/04/on-being-bondage-furniture/
> I don't think the 20 minute format, or even the most welcoming potential KFADEN structure, are set up to facilitate the sort of...almost support-groupesque space I'd been envisioning for a conversation like that. But I feel like what you are offering here is really valuable nonetheless, if for no other reason than because you're offering to make yourself vulnerable around something that is scary for so many people. Have you considered maybe doing it in a sort of...Q&A format where people can ask you about the parts of your experiences that seem salient to them? I don't know. Just a thought.
For success case replication, take a look at the Student Sexuality Groups Unpanel that happened at KinkForAll Providence:
Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykGeziE58N4
Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnnYrMgwIZA
An "unpanel" like this is a great way to turn a topic into a Q&A and have it all fit within 20 minutes.