Several alternatives for aspirin therapy

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Jason

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Nov 15, 2009, 11:22:46 PM11/15/09
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Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily
low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention.

The problem is that aspirin is one of the causes of gastrointestional bleeding.

These are some of the supplements that can keep the blood at a healthy
viscosity without eroding the digestive tract:

fish oil
garlic
ginger
bromeain
full sprectrum Vit. E
magnesium

Also,
nattokinase
niacin
Lumbrokinase

The above info. was obtained from the following book:

REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW
by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D.
Dr. Sinatra and Dr. Roberts are both cardiologists.


Don Kirkman

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Nov 16, 2009, 2:17:41 AM11/16/09
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It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<Jason-15110...@67-150-123-48.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:

>Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily
>low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention.

>The problem is that aspirin is one of the causes of gastrointestional bleeding.

Of course for the minority of patients who develop gastrointestinal
bleeding it would be contraindicated, but it continues to be a
relatively safe, cheap, and effective treatment.

>These are some of the supplements that can keep the blood at a healthy
>viscosity without eroding the digestive tract:

>fish oil
>garlic
>ginger
>bromeain
>full sprectrum Vit. E
>magnesium

>Also,
>nattokinase
>niacin
>Lumbrokinase

>The above info. was obtained from the following book:

Which of the above keep the platelets from adhering to each other and
causing clots, which is the reason doctors prescribe aspirin for heart
patients?

>REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW
>by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D.
>Dr. Sinatra and Dr. Roberts are both cardiologists.

The book is about reducing plaque, not about "healthy viscosity" and
not about preventing clotting. FWIW my cardiologist told me over ten
years ago that there is no medication that actually reduces plaque,
though some statins may cause it to consolidate and shrink somewhat.
If a newer medication does reduce plaque, so much the better--but it
has nothing to do with the function aspirin performs in cardiac
patients.

No discussion of the book I found in Google even contains the word
"aspirin." It's irresponsible to give advice if you don't even know
the mechanisms and medications involved in the issue.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

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Nov 16, 2009, 6:37:22 AM11/16/09
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Don Kirkman wrote:

> Jason wrote:
>
> >Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily
> >low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention.
>
> >The problem is that aspirin is one of the causes of gastrointestional bleeding.
>
> Of course for the minority of patients who develop gastrointestinal
> bleeding it would be contraindicated, but it continues to be a
> relatively safe, cheap, and effective treatment.

Moreover, as discussed in another SMC thread, it remains wiser for
people at very low risk for heart attacks and strokes, where risk of
GI bleeding from the aspirin would be greater than benefit of primary
prevention, to reduce their cardiovascular risk to zero by losing
their visceral adiposity by eating the right amount (32 oz/day):

http://WDJW.net/BeSmart

May GOD give you, Don, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20
and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John
3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:

http://T3WiJ.com

Amen.

Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and
other heart disease patients:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?

Marana tha

Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?

ver...@gefinden.com

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Nov 16, 2009, 1:01:53 PM11/16/09
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"prevention, to reduce their cardiovascular risk to zero by losing
their visceral adiposity by eating the right amount (32 oz/day):"

Truth:

The two pound diet,aka 2pd etc. is quack science. It has flaws of both
fact and logic. It was invented to fit a preexisting agenda and does
not flow from evidence based on research. The diet inventor has many
times been appraised of his flaws but clings to them for reasons other
then science or valid medical practice


All of this nonsense of measure by weight or volume comes from the
agenda fitting, not well established research. But sadly even the
agenda is based on misunderstood and misapplied information. Even when
corrected, the author of the agenda for nothing but pride and vain face
saving can not deal with that truth.

The weight part came from a failed knowledge of a particular verse in
scripture. When shown to be wrong, he promptly said he had been given a
new interpretation to set the record straight. And of course this new
information led where the agenda demands.

Bottom line, ignore any reference to the two pound diet,aka 2 pd etc.
and stick with established information and sources of expert authorities
which do not include the vanity of vanity distorting reality in this
case.

There is a larger problem then misinformation obvious to anyone familiar
with the inventor's posts.

May God bless and protect and heal.

Jason

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Nov 17, 2009, 2:27:20 AM11/17/09
to
In article <60u1g51r1mccohg4h...@4ax.com>,
don...@charter.net wrote:

My best guess is Lumbrokinase, fish oil and Nattokinase. The two doctors
claim that those three supplements help to keep the blood thin. Here is a
direct quote from the book:

"We've already seen how one supplement--fish oil--helps keep blood thin.
But many individuals...may need something even stonger. That's where
nattokinase and lumbrokinase come in...." page 105

They go on to say that natto. and lumbro. are "clot busters" (pg. 107)


> >REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW
> >by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D.
> >Dr. Sinatra and Dr. Roberts are both cardiologists.
>
> The book is about reducing plaque, not about "healthy viscosity" and
> not about preventing clotting. FWIW my cardiologist told me over ten
> years ago that there is no medication that actually reduces plaque,
> though some statins may cause it to consolidate and shrink somewhat.
> If a newer medication does reduce plaque, so much the better--but it
> has nothing to do with the function aspirin performs in cardiac
> patients.

Have you read the book? If so, you should know that the two cardiologists
that wrote the book do discuss reducing plaque as well as healthy
viscosity (see page 90).


>
> No discussion of the book I found in Google even contains the word
> "aspirin." It's irresponsible to give advice if you don't even know
> the mechanisms and medications involved in the issue.

Aspirin is mentioned in the index and on page 90.

I suggest that you read the book before discussing information that is in
a book that you have not yet read.


Don Kirkman

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Nov 17, 2009, 2:19:46 AM11/17/09
to
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<Jason-16110...@67-150-121-86.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:

>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
>> <Jason-15110...@67-150-123-48.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:

>> >Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily
>> >low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention.

>> >The problem is that aspirin is one of the causes of gastrointestional
>bleeding.

>> Of course for the minority of patients who develop gastrointestinal
>> bleeding it would be contraindicated, but it continues to be a
>> relatively safe, cheap, and effective treatment.

>> Which of the above keep the platelets from adhering to each other and
>> causing clots, which is the reason doctors prescribe aspirin for heart
>> patients?

>My best guess is Lumbrokinase, fish oil and Nattokinase. The two doctors
>claim that those three supplements help to keep the blood thin. Here is a
>direct quote from the book:

Your best guess is meaningless. I asked a medical question.

>"We've already seen how one supplement--fish oil--helps keep blood thin.
>But many individuals...may need something even stonger. That's where
>nattokinase and lumbrokinase come in...." page 105

>They go on to say that natto. and lumbro. are "clot busters" (pg. 107)

But aspirin is not a blood thinner nor a "clot buster." It reduces
the tendency to clot by keeping platelets from sticking together.

Please don't use guesswork if you want to discuss medical issues.


>> >REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW
>> >by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D.
>> >Dr. Sinatra and Dr. Roberts are both cardiologists.
>>
>> The book is about reducing plaque, not about "healthy viscosity" and
>> not about preventing clotting. FWIW my cardiologist told me over ten
>> years ago that there is no medication that actually reduces plaque,
>> though some statins may cause it to consolidate and shrink somewhat.
>> If a newer medication does reduce plaque, so much the better--but it
>> has nothing to do with the function aspirin performs in cardiac
>> patients.

>Have you read the book? If so, you should know that the two cardiologists
>that wrote the book do discuss reducing plaque as well as healthy
>viscosity (see page 90).

If you had read my paragraph directly above this response you would
see that I wrote exactly that in the first six words of the first
sentence.

>> No discussion of the book I found in Google even contains the word
>> "aspirin." It's irresponsible to give advice if you don't even know
>> the mechanisms and medications involved in the issue.

>Aspirin is mentioned in the index and on page 90.

"Aspirin" in the index is no evidence for anything. Saying it is
mentioned on page 90 is equally useless.

>I suggest that you read the book before discussing information that is in
>a book that you have not yet read.

I'm not discussing information that is in the book but information you
are putting forth that is not in the book--that other medications are
equivalent to aspirin therapy for cardiac patients.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

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Nov 17, 2009, 3:31:10 AM11/17/09
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Bottom line concerning your feigned issues with the 2PD-OMER Approach:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ba8379f6c69b4310?

<><

"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
LORD." (Proverbs 16:33)

Amen.

A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 ...

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/085dcffcafb7e4e2?

Nothing happens by chance because everything happens only as GOD
allows it (Ecclesiastes 9:11):

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?

Sign that GOD can easily unleash an H5N1 Pandemic, for which there is
no vaccine, at any time:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?

What we are teaching to prepare folks in our local communities for the
probable eventuality of a Pan-Flu virus deadlier than the current H1N1
Pandemic virus (i.e. one for which there is no vaccine):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU

How to not be fearful:

Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!

http://T3WiJ.com

May dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a blessedly wonderful
2009th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus Christ as our Messiah,
the Son of Man ...

... by being hungrier:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?

Hunger is wonderful ! ! !

It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):

http://WDJW.net

Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?

Hunger is the physical "hearts burning within us" feeling that unlocks
the 4 mysteries of the "Road to Emmaus" adventure described in Luke
24:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?

Moreover, being hungrier is the key to being Jesus' disciples:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?

Being physically hungrier is how we will physically recognize Jesus
when He physically returns for us to meet Him physically in the air:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ffa6609710ea9587?

"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...

... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)

Amen.

Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?

Jesus is LORD, forever !!!

http://JiL4ever.net

Be hungrier, which is truly healthier especially for diabetics and

Ken

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Nov 17, 2009, 10:16:31 AM11/17/09
to
Bottom line concening chung

Clinical Sociopathic *NARCISSISM*"
Having 5 of these 9 "qualifies" a person as a narcissist...
How many of these fit him to a "T"?


1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates
achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be
recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome
power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral
narcissist),
bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or
ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion
3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special,
can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate
with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or
institutions)
4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and
affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be
notorious (narcissistic supply).
5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable
priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or
her expectations
6. Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve
his or her own ends
7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or
acknowledge the feelings and needs of others
8. Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same
about him or her
9. Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when
frustrated, contradicted, or confronted

Jason

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Nov 17, 2009, 3:40:08 PM11/17/09
to
In article <n3j4g51jmuvjkeeu1...@4ax.com>,
don...@charter.net wrote:

I am NOT a doctor but both of the authors of the book are cardiologists.
This is an exact quote from the book related to aspirin:

"We [Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra] don't recommend aspirin therapy to
healthy people for primary CVD prevention. The reason: aspirin may seem
harmless, but it's one the leading causes of gastrointesinal bleeding. We
prefer a variety of supplements to keep the bood at a healthy viscosity
without eroding the digestive tract...."

I trust the words of Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra over your words since I
know nothing about your medical training. However, I do know a great deal
of info. about Dr. Roberts and Dr Sinatra's medical training.


Don Kirkman

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Nov 18, 2009, 2:02:01 AM11/18/09
to
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<Jason-17110...@66.53.222.127>:

We started with this same statement, and you've added nothing
meaningful since. The fact is most cardiac patients do NOT develop
gastrointestinal bleeding from aspiring therapy, and of course those
who do should be taken off aspirin immediately.

>I trust the words of Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra over your words since I
>know nothing about your medical training. However, I do know a great deal
>of info. about Dr. Roberts and Dr Sinatra's medical training.

Then you know that much of Sinatra's recent work has a "new age"
tinge. Such as:

Sugar Shock!: How Sweets and Simple Carbs Can Derail Your Life-- and
How You Can Get Back on Track

The Fast Food Diet

Spa Medicine: Your Gateway to the Ageless Zone

Lower Your Blood Pressure in Eight Weeks: A Revolutionary Program for
a Longer, Healthier Life

Heart Sense for Women: Your Plan for Natural Prevention and Treatment

Heartbreak & Heart Disease: A Mind/Body Prescription for Healing the
Heart

Optimum Health: A Natural Lifesaving Prescription for your Body and
Mind

--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

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Nov 18, 2009, 4:37:44 AM11/18/09
to
Bottom line concerning you, Ken:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/e444a7f27fc8ae79?

Truth is reality ...

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/459c9c0ed3b24ca2?

... despite your efforts:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3160f9fd903ab7c2?

There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?

May GOD give you, Ken, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20


and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John
3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:

http://T3WiJ.com

Amen.

Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and

Ken

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Nov 18, 2009, 11:58:30 AM11/18/09
to

MU

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Nov 18, 2009, 3:10:47 PM11/18/09
to

Jason, you're arguing with the Kirkman Troll, a fool who has spent over
a decade claiming physician level knowledge and expertise including
being much brighter and wiser a cardiologist than the resident Dr.
Chung.

Suggestion: Ignore The Troll.

Jason

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Nov 18, 2009, 6:26:55 PM11/18/09
to
In article <go57g5d2np7is8e4n...@4ax.com>,
don...@charter.net wrote:

Mr. Kirkman,
If you want to take aspirin therapy for the rest of your life--please feel
free to do so. I hope that you do not develop ulcers in your stomach or
intestines as a direct result of aspirin therapy. Dr. Roberts and Dr.
Sinatra are excellent doctors that know much MORE about cardiology than
you know or that I know.
Jason


Jason

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Nov 18, 2009, 6:27:35 PM11/18/09
to
In article <he1kc7$e6u$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, MU
<efacs...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the information
Jason


Don Kirkman

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Nov 18, 2009, 7:38:25 PM11/18/09
to
It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
<Jason-18110...@67-150-121-70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:

>> The Fast Food Diet

I shall do so, with or without your approval. My cardiologists have
all strongly recommended it, and at full strength at that.

> I hope that you do not develop ulcers in your stomach or
>intestines as a direct result of aspirin therapy.

Since I haven't yet over the past eleven years, I think the risk is
slight.

> Dr. Roberts and Dr.
>Sinatra are excellent doctors that know much MORE about cardiology than
>you know or that I know.

And you know they are "excellent" how? The list of books Dr. Sinatra
has published strongly suggests he is out of the medical mainstream.
Dr. Sinatra's medical grounding appears to be somewhat inferior to Dr.
Chung's and his advice as inferred from his book titles is scarcely
more scientific than the Two Pound Diet [Approach].

BTW, trolls do not discuss facts and evidence; many of them do nothing
to advance discussion or knowledge, seeming to exist primarily to
disrupt discussion.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net

MU

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Nov 18, 2009, 7:46:44 PM11/18/09
to
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:26:55 -0800, Jason wrote:

> Dr. Roberts and Dr.
> Sinatra are excellent doctors that know much MORE about cardiology than
> you know or that I know.

Don't expect Troll Kirkman to agree and since he has claimed to have me
killfiled for years now, expect that he won't answer to this post
either. Guarantee he reads them :)

You have stated the obvious, the only question remains are these two
physicians honest with themselves and in their advice. Many
cardiologists have written books and stated opinions that have over time
become total BS. Robert Atkins comes to mind.

Jason

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Nov 19, 2009, 1:38:56 AM11/19/09
to
In article <ur39g5l4evmcdb59q...@4ax.com>,
don...@charter.net wrote:

What is your medical background? Do you think that you know more about the
field of cardiology than Dr. Sinatra (a cardiologist)?


Jason

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Nov 19, 2009, 1:49:02 AM11/19/09
to
In article <he24hk$vh7$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, MU
<efacs...@gmail.com> wrote:

Time will tell. Both of the cardiologists that wrote the book have been
practicing medicine for many years and are (as of now) standing by their
advice. Only God knows if they will be standing by their advice a dozen
years from now.


MU

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Nov 19, 2009, 12:54:39 PM11/19/09
to

I agree and I haven't read the books, I'm not familiar with their work,
maybe Andrew is and can comment. I do know that we had Atkins figured
out in the mid 90s when we first got together on the 2PD and thoroughly
trashed that clown, his book and ultimately his underlying reasons for
propagating his ridiculous diet. The result of that is that verbal
whipping is partially the reason that the (alt.diet.)lo-carb Usenet
groups have diminished to nothingness.

The problem with publishing is in the publishing process, Publishers
want to make money and that means you have to have fertile material that
can be reproduced or recompiled in new books. They rarely publish for
the common good and take a financial bath in the process.

Hence, I take a jaundiced view of the Atkins, Ornish and others
especially when I find that a much simpler, consumption by volume based
approach to losing and maintaining proper body weight works.

But hey, being simple, accepting hunger and espousing an eating approach
based on what your food weighs isn't going to bring publishing $$$ to
anyone including MU or Chung. People think complex = success and are
built into the "diet" mode these days.

MoSn

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Nov 19, 2009, 5:38:53 PM11/19/09
to
On Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:46:44 -0600, MU wrote
(in article <he24hk$vh7$1...@news.eternal-september.org>):


> Many cardiologists have written books and stated opinions that have over time
> become total BS. Robert Atkins comes to mind.

Yes, and certainly Chung falls into that group along with Atkins

MoSn

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Nov 19, 2009, 5:45:10 PM11/19/09
to
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:54:39 -0600, MU wrote
(in article <he40ov$ml$1...@news.eternal-september.org>):

> But hey, being simple, accepting hunger and espousing an eating approach
> based on what your food weighs isn't going to bring publishing $$$ to
> anyone including MU or Chung. People think complex = success and are
> built into the "diet" mode these days.

Atkins Diet is pretty simple too .... so Atkins and Chung both have simple
diets along with both being BS. Except, there are many sites from many
sources about the Atkin's diet and except for a few groups in the usenet and
Chung's own web site, there is little There are discussions about the
Atlkin's Diet on medical sites and publication .... but none about Chung's
diet

Jason

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Nov 20, 2009, 1:00:41 AM11/20/09
to
In article <he40ov$ml$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, MU
<efacs...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have read REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and
James C. Roberts, M.D. Both of the cardiologists that wrote the book are
very different than Atkins. They practice regular medicine but also make
use of supplements to treat their patients. That means they open
themselves up to criticism from other doctors and from anyone that
believes doctors should only treat people with medications. I suggest that
you read the book since you appear to have an open mind about this
subject.
jason


MU

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Nov 20, 2009, 9:15:55 AM11/20/09
to
On Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:00:41 -0800, Jason wrote:

> I have read REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and
> James C. Roberts, M.D. Both of the cardiologists that wrote the book are
> very different than Atkins. They practice regular medicine but also make
> use of supplements to treat their patients. That means they open
> themselves up to criticism from other doctors and from anyone that
> believes doctors should only treat people with medications. I suggest that
> you read the book since you appear to have an open mind about this
> subject.
> jason

Will do, thx.

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

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Nov 21, 2009, 3:00:45 AM11/21/09
to

Robert Miles

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Nov 22, 2009, 10:28:40 AM11/22/09
to
"Don Kirkman" <don...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:ur39g5l4evmcdb59q...@4ax.com...

> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
> <Jason-18110...@67-150-121-70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>
>>In article <go57g5d2np7is8e4n...@4ax.com>,
>>don...@charter.net wrote:
>
>>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
>>> <Jason-17110...@66.53.222.127>:
>
>>> >In article <n3j4g51jmuvjkeeu1...@4ax.com>,
>>> >don...@charter.net wrote:
>
>>> >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
>>> >> <Jason-16110...@67-150-121-86.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>
>>> >> >In article <60u1g51r1mccohg4h...@4ax.com>,
>>> >> >don...@charter.net wrote:
>
>>> >> >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article
>>> >> >> <Jason-15110...@67-150-123-48.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
[snip]

>
> And you know they are "excellent" how? The list of books Dr. Sinatra
> has published strongly suggests he is out of the medical mainstream.
> Dr. Sinatra's medical grounding appears to be somewhat inferior to Dr.
> Chung's and his advice as inferred from his book titles is scarcely
> more scientific than the Two Pound Diet [Approach].
>
> BTW, trolls do not discuss facts and evidence; many of them do nothing
> to advance discussion or knowledge, seeming to exist primarily to
> disrupt discussion.
> --
> Don Kirkman
> don...@charter.net

So you aren't aware yet that Chung is considered a troll in the diabetes
newsgroups, and there's little sign that he's had any patients after he was
fired from his first medical job in less than three months?

Robert Miles


MU

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Nov 22, 2009, 12:53:32 PM11/22/09
to

lol

Hey, Robbie, since I *am* one of Chung's patients, I guess that makes
you out a big fat LIAR.

MoSn

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Nov 22, 2009, 11:36:51 PM11/22/09
to
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:53:32 -0600, MU wrote
(in article <hebtqt$1s3$1...@news.eternal-september.org>):

> Hey, Robbie, since I *am* one of Chung's patients, I guess that makes
> you out a big fat LIAR.

Doctors should not treat themselves IF the above statement is true.

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 4:31:54 AM11/24/09
to
Don Kirkman wrote in part:

>
> Dr. Sinatra's medical grounding appears to be somewhat inferior to Dr.
> Chung's and his advice as inferred from his book titles is scarcely
> more scientific than the Two Pound Diet [Approach].

The 2PD-OMER Approach simply works as evident by the fact that its US
$2,000,000.00 guarantee remains in force:

http://WDJW.net/Guarantee

Moreover, the underpinnings of the 2PD-OMER Approach is secured by an
understanding of the first law of thermodynamics so that no true
scientist is able to truthfully claim that the Approach lacks
scientific validity.

Would continue to gently suggest that you, Don, stop lying post-haste
before you start believing the lies and suffer a break from reality:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ebf80fd52b13b1ca?

There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?

May GOD give you, Don, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20

MU

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 4:33:40 PM11/24/09
to
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 01:31:54 -0800 (PST), Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

> Moreover, the underpinnings of the 2PD-OMER Approach is secured by an
> understanding of the first law of thermodynamics so that no true
> scientist is able to truthfully claim that the Approach lacks
> scientific validity.

Yep, /any/ weight loss regimen has to pass this test, validity, however,
is based on sustainability.

Atkins, Ornish and every other commercial, book or pamphlet based
dieting plan fail the validity/sustainability test with reversions as
high as 98%.

MoSn

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 5:16:33 PM11/24/09
to
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 15:33:40 -0600, MU wrote
(in article <hehjfk$crt$1...@news.eternal-september.org>):

Duh.

"There is a much easier way to lose weight, as we can learn from the first
law of thermodynamics. Eat less. "

http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm

The key to weight loss is to eat less. Most people count calories and eat
less calories than they need. Exercise also helps by burning calories.

True the average person eats more than 2 pounds of food a day and so will
lose weight ..... but the idea of 2 pounds of celery and 2 pounds of cheese
cake will give the same result is absurd. The idea that the same amount for
6 foot 4 inch 350 pound male is the same as for a 4 foot 150 woman is also
absurd.

Beware of those advocating a simple one size fits all diet

Bill who putters

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 6:05:19 PM11/24/09
to
In article <0001HW.C731B761...@news.x-privat.org>,
MoSn <mos...@gmail.com> wrote:


>
> The key to weight loss is to eat less. Most people count calories and eat
> less calories than they need. Exercise also helps by burning calories.
>

Take a look at Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad calories". P
352 dealing with Pennington. Then buy the book. High fat with
restricted carbs ..................... Get your own adipose cranking.

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 7:04:47 PM11/24/09
to
a neighbor wrote:
> MU wrote:

>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>
>>> Moreover, the underpinnings of the 2PD-OMER Approach is secured by an
>>> understanding of the first law of thermodynamics so that no true
>>> scientist is able to truthfully claim that the Approach lacks
>>> scientific validity.
>>
>> Yep, /any/ weight loss regimen has to pass this test, validity, however,
>> is based on sustainability.
>>
>> Atkins, Ornish and every other commercial, book or pamphlet based
>> dieting plan fail the validity/sustainability test with reversions as
>> high as 98%.
>
> Duh.

Delusion.

It's the "hunger is starvation" delusion.

>"There is a much easier way to lose weight, as we can learn from the first
>law of thermodynamics. Eat less. "

Much smarter to eat the right amount (32 oz/day) of food:

http://WDJW.net/BeSmart

> http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm

From your cite:

"Of course, there is a catch. You'll be hungry. It's not real hunger -
not like the painful hunger of starving people in impoverished
countries." -- Richard A. Muller

It seems even Physicist Muller is suffering from the "real hunger is
starvation and is painful" delusion. Folks dying from starvation
(i.e. those that cause us to suffer when looking upon their emaciated
forms) are simply not hungry because they are in starvation ketosis.
Indeed, folks truly dying for any reason are simply not hungry.

The 2PD-OMER Approach does help people overcome the "hunger is
starvation" delusion as evident by the fact that its US


$2,000,000.00 guarantee remains in force:

http://WDJW.net/Guarantee

There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?

May GOD give you, neighbor, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel

ver...@gefinden.com

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 8:21:02 PM11/24/09
to
"Much smarter to eat the right amount (32 oz/day) of food:"

Truth:

The two pound diet,aka 2pd etc. is quack science. It has flaws of both
fact and logic. It was invented to fit a preexisting agenda and does
not flow from evidence based on research. The diet inventor has many
times been appraised of his flaws but clings to them for reasons other
then science or valid medical practice


All of this nonsense of measure by weight or volume comes from the
agenda fitting, not well established research. But sadly even the
agenda is based on misunderstood and misapplied information. Even when
corrected, the author of the agenda for nothing but pride and vain face
saving can not deal with that truth.

The weight part came from a failed knowledge of a particular verse in
scripture. When shown to be wrong, he promptly said he had been given a
new interpretation to set the record straight. And of course this new
information led where the agenda demands.

Bottom line, ignore any reference to the two pound diet,aka 2 pd etc.
and stick with established information and sources of expert authorities
which do not include the vanity of vanity distorting reality in this
case.

There is a larger problem then misinformation obvious to anyone familiar
with the inventor's posts.

May God bless and protect and heal.

sometimers

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 8:48:45 PM11/24/09
to
MoSn wrote:

> The key to weight loss is to eat less.

I'm overweight because I am diabetic. I am not diabetic
because I am overweight.

You have to remember also that eating is a survival
strategy, not entirely a matter of choice. Now that
my heart is pumping better and I have more energy I
am losing weight, though I doubt I'll ever again
achieve my ideal weight.

I'm not making excuses, just providing food for thought.

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 11:05:24 PM11/24/09
to
sometimers wrote:

> a neighbor wrote:
>
> > The key to weight loss is to eat less.
>
> I'm overweight because I am diabetic.

Not according to the first law of thermodynamics as physicist Muller
has explicated :

http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm

sometimers

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 11:19:30 PM11/24/09
to
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> sometimers wrote:
>> a neighbor wrote:
>>
>>> The key to weight loss is to eat less.
>> I'm overweight because I am diabetic.
>
> Not according to the first law of thermodynamics as physicist Muller
> has explicated :
>
> http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm

I'm going to reply to you this one time only.

You're a kook.

Richard A. Muller is a kook as well. (1) He is not diabetic.
(2) He has some mental issues unique to himself. (3) The
human body is a complex system, not a project study under
the simplistic rules governing thermodynamics analysis.

People like you spout off easy answers because you don't
actually understand the problems you're attempting to
address. Real world solutions are never successfully one
size fits all.

Go hide in a corner somewhere and pray for the wisdom that
is eluding you. Please don't come out again until that
wisdom manifests. The first step is realizing that almost
everything you presently tell us you believe is wrong.
That's the key to your permission to engage in conversation
with me in the future.

Best of luck to you.

MoSn

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 11:50:43 PM11/24/09
to

> http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm

This is the article from the above site

The Physics Diet

Want to lose weight? Easy! Just remember the first law of thermodynamics:
conservation of energy.

by Richard A. Muller

Technology for Presidents

November 14, 2003

Here's an old joke. The dairy industry hires a physicist to improve milk
production. After several weeks, he's ready to lecture about his progress. He
draws a circle on the blackboard and says, 'Consider a spherical cow.'

I've told this joke many times, but nobody ever laughs -- except other
physicists. For the rest of you, I should explain that it is self-deprecating
humor. It makes fun of our penchant for oversimplification.

This month I want to talk about diet and exercise for weight loss, and I'm
going to oversimplify on purpose. Consider a spherical physicist.

Most dieters are so concerned about second-order effects, such as daily
fluctuations in weight and changes in metabolism, that they lose track of the
first law of thermodynamics: conservation of energy.

Want to lose a pound of fat? You can work it off by hiking to the top of a
2,500-story building. Or by running 60 miles. Or by spending 7 hours cleaning
animal stalls. (It is amazing what scientists have actually measured. This
last example is tabulated in the book Exercise Physiology by G. Brooks and T.
Fahey.)

Exercise is a very difficult way to lose weight. Here's a rule of thumb:
exercise very hard for one hour (swimming, running, or racquetball)ᅵ and
you'll lose about one ounce of fat. Light exercise for an hour (gardening,
baseball, or golf) will lose you a third of an ounce. That number is small
because fat is a very energy-dense substance: it packs about 4,000 food
calories per pound, the same as gasoline, and 15 times as much as in TNT.

If you run for an hour, you'll lose that ounce of fat and also a pound or two
of water. By the next day, when you've replenished the water, you might
think, 'the weight came right back!' But you'd be wrong -- you really did
lose an ounce. It is hard to notice, unless you keep running every day for a
month or more, and don't reward yourself after each run with a cookie.

There is a much easier way to lose weight, as we can learn from the first law
of thermodynamics. Eat less.

A reasonable daily diet for an adult is 2,000 food calories. That's 8.36
megajoules per day, or about 100 joules per second -- in other words, 100
watts. Most of that ends up as heat, so you warm a room as much as a bright
light bulb. Cut your consumption by 600 calories per day and you'll lose a
pound of fat every week. Most diet experts consider that a reasonable goal.
Don't drop below 1,000 calories per day, or you might get lethargic. But at
1,400 calories per day, you can easily maintain an active life.

Of course, there is a catch. You'll be hungry.

It's not real hungerï¿œnot like the painful hunger of starving people in
impoverished countries. It's more of a mild ache, or an itch that you mustn't
scratch. To be popular, a diet must somehow cope with this hunger. Weight
Watchers does it with peer support. The food pyramid does it by encouraging
you to eat unlimited celery. Some high-fat diets satisfy all your old
cravings -- and figure you'll eventually cut back the butter you put on your
bacon.

Last April, I had once again grown out of my belt. I wasn't grossly
overweight: 205 pounds in a six-foot, one-inch body. That wouldn't be bad
for a football player, but I'm 59 years old, and the excess pounds weren't in
muscle. I had gained a pound a year for several decades. I felt heavy and
old. I decided to try conservation of energy. I gave up lunch and snacks.

How to cope with the hunger? I attempted to enjoy it. I thought of the movie
Lawrence of Arabia, in which T.E. Lawrence says, 'The trick is not minding
that it hurts.' I told myself that the mild ache was only the sensation of
evaporating fat. That interpretation has some basis in physics. When you lose
weight, most of your fat is converted to the gases carbon dioxide and water
vapor, and so you get rid of fat by breathing it out of your body.

Physics works, and I lost weight. By August, I was down to 175 pounds, a
30-pound drop. My belt went from 42 inches to 36 inches. My Zen-like
approach to hunger also worked; I found myself declining offers of chocolate
cake because I didn't want to lose the sensation of evaporation. I didn't
change my level of activity, and managed to maintain my diet while taking
trips to Cuba and Alaska -- and during a week-long backpacking excursion in
the Sierra Nevada. A key innovation: I kept up the social aspects of lunch,
without eating. I watched others gobbling cheeseburgers, while I sipped diet
cola. It really wasn't that hard to do. And the mild afternoon discomfort was
compensated by several positive developments. Dinner became truly wonderful.
I hadn't had pre-dinner hunger for decades. A sharp appetite turns a meal
into a feast. No more cheese 'appetizers' for me.

Moreover -- and this may sound silly coming from a physicist -- I was
surprised that I began to feel lighter. I no longer walk down streets -- I
float. Distant stores seem closer. And my knees have responded to the lighter
load. Their aching, which I had mistakenly attributed to aging, went away.

Food is instant gratification. And fast-food chains and gourmet restaurants
serve tasty food at remarkably low cost. It is a situation unprecedented in
history and unanticipated by our genes. No wonder we are overweight.

Anybody can lose weight. Energy is conserved. Just stop scratching that itch.
Of course, you'll have to sacrifice instant gratification. Is it worth it?
You decide. Food is delicious and cheap. You might reasonably choose to take
advantage of this unique historical circumstance, and decide to be fat.

It's been seven months since I started my diet, and two months since I left
it. I've begun eating a light lunch, and having an occasional small snack.
I'm still at 175. But I never want to lose the delicious edge of hunger
before dinner, or the floating sensation when I walk. Moving takes less
energy now, so I have more energy. I no longer feel like a spherical
physicist. And for losing weight, dieting sure beats cleaning animal stalls.

-------------------

Richard A. Muller, a 1982 MacArthur Fellow, is a physics professor at the
University of California, Berkeley, where he teaches a course called 'Physics
for Future Presidents.' Since 1972, he has been a Jason consultant on U.S.
national security

MoSn

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 11:53:53 PM11/24/09
to
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:05:24 -0600, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
(in article
<acdf89d8-c281-4da0...@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>):

> Not according to the first law of thermodynamics as physicist Muller
> has explicated :
>
> http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm

No where do Muller advocate or even mention Chung 2 pound diet in the site

As a matter of fact no where in the medical literature is Chung's diet
discussed or even mentioned and there are no published studies in any of the
standard medical literature.

MoSn

unread,
Nov 24, 2009, 11:55:49 PM11/24/09
to
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:19:30 -0600, sometimers wrote
(in article <heib8a$9lb$1...@news.eternal-september.org>):

> Real world solutions are never successfully one
> size fits all.

Yes ..... and beware of those spouting simple one-size fits all diets.

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 4:54:08 AM11/25/09
to
MoSn wrote:

> sometimers wrote:
>
> > Real world solutions are never successfully one
> > size fits all.

Incorrect.

GOD is One real world solution and He is always successful.

> Yes ..... and beware of those spouting simple one-size fits all diets.

Thankfully the 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet:

http://WDJW.net/BeSmart

It is by GOD's design that there exists one right amount of food for
humans (Exodus 16:16).

It is not by chance that the chapter and verse numbers add up to 32
here (Proverbs 16:33).

It is not by chance that the "hunger is starvation" delusion is
described in the middle of Genesis at verse 32.

It is by GOD, the 2PD-OMER Approach is another real world solution
that has been successful:

http://WDJW.net/NJ

And, will remain successful:

http://WDJW.net/Guarantee

May GOD give you, neighbor, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel


11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and
Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth,

Who is Jesus.

Amen.

There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?

Being hungrier truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other

QJ

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 9:44:11 AM11/25/09
to
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:54:08 -0600, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
(in article
<432c31a6-a87c-4709...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>):

> GOD is One real world solution and He is always successful.
>

Which God - people believe fervently, as much as you do, in different Gods.

>
> Thankfully the 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet:

Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig's and Atkin's are all Approaches also to
dieting and life style changes.

It is interesting that you have to resort to word games when you do not have
the facts and data to back up what you write. Of course, that goes for most
of what you post.

MoSn

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 10:56:41 AM11/25/09
to
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:44:11 -0600, QJ wrote
(in article <0001HW.C7329EDB...@news.x-privat.org>):

> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:54:08 -0600, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
> (in article
> <432c31a6-a87c-4709...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>):
>
>> GOD is One real world solution and He is always successful.
>>
>
> Which God - people believe fervently, as much as you do, in different Gods.
>

Naturally my God and not yours.

>>
>> Thankfully the 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet:
>
> Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig's and Atkin's are all Approaches also to
> dieting and life style changes.
>
> It is interesting that you have to resort to word games when you do not have
> the facts and data to back up what you write. Of course, that goes for most
> of what you post.
>

Yes. "A rose is a rose is a rose is a rose" no matter what you call it

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 4:05:20 PM11/25/09
to
a neighbor wrote:
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> MoSn wrote:
>>> sometimers wrote:
>>>
>>> > Real world solutions are never successfully one
>>> > size fits all.
>>
>> Incorrect.
>>
>> GOD is One real world solution and He is always successful.
>>
>>> Yes ..... and beware of those spouting simple one-size fits all diets.
>>
>>Thankfully the 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet:
>>
>> http://WDJW.net/BeSmart

If 2PD-OMER Approach were a diet, it would not dovetail as easily with
a regular diet as it does with either Atkins or vegan diets.

>> It is by GOD's design that there exists one right amount of food for
>> humans (Exodus 16:16).
>>
>> It is not by chance that the chapter and verse numbers add up to 32
>> here (Proverbs 16:33).
>>
>> It is not by chance that the "hunger is starvation" delusion is
>> described in the middle of Genesis at verse 32.
>>
>> It is by GOD, the 2PD-OMER Approach is another real world solution
>> that has been successful:
>>
>> http://WDJW.net/NJ
>>
>> And, will remain successful:
>>
>> http://WDJW.net/Guarantee
>

>Which God

The Author of all reality and Creator GOD, Whom this physician most
assuredly without doubt **knows** and understands to be kind, just,
and right (Jeremiah 9:24)

May GOD give you, neighbor, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel
11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and
Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth,

Who is Jesus:

http://T3WiJ.com

MU

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 5:46:53 PM11/25/09
to

People who do not limit their consumption to 2lbs per day fear what they
have been told to fear, the unpleasantness/pain of hunger. What actually
happens is that any unpleasantness will, in time, resolve itself. You
will still know hunger but like watching a fire from afar, you know it
is hot, but you are not hot.

This fear of being without food is part and parcel of a concerted
attempt through mass disinformation and marketing stemming from the
various food delivery agencies. This includes the complicity of the
FedGov, USDA (the ridiculous food pyramid) and others in perpetuating
this dishonesty on the world populations.

Motherhood, this concept of food=love and satiation=parenting, is yet
another strong factor in the obesity of America.

MU

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 5:48:19 PM11/25/09
to

Are you saying that diabetics have no choice but overconsumption,
obesity and, at the very least, being over ideal weight?

MU

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 5:50:04 PM11/25/09
to
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:19:30 -0600, sometimers wrote:

> People like you spout off easy answers because you don't
> actually understand the problems you're attempting to
> address. Real world solutions are never successfully one
> size fits all.

So if we destroy all nuclear materials, bombs, and associated, we cannot
end the possibility of nuclear war?

See - a one size fits all solution.

MU

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 5:53:55 PM11/25/09
to
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 08:44:11 -0600, QJ wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:54:08 -0600, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote
> (in article
> <432c31a6-a87c-4709...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>):
>
>> GOD is One real world solution and He is always successful.
>>
>
> Which God - people believe fervently, as much as you do, in different Gods.
>
>>
>> Thankfully the 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet:
>
> Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig's and Atkin's are all Approaches also to
> dieting and life style changes.

They are no such thing, they are dishonest, profit making business and
nothing more. When you fly an approach in an airplane, the reason is to
land successfully and debark. These frauds rarely have any sustainable
successes, they only thing they "approach" is a near certainty of
failure.



> It is interesting that you have to resort to word games when you do not have
> the facts and data to back up what you write. Of course, that goes for most
> of what you post.

Your opinion. My facts just kicked your concepts on WW, JC and Atkins to
the gutter...where all trash belongs.

sometimers

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 6:17:49 PM11/25/09
to

Look around and tell me what you see. Statistically
diabetics are above their ideal weight. It isn't for
want of wishing, and trying, to be closer to ideal
that we're where we are today.

That's not to say there aren't some thin diabetics.

For the rest of us it is a lifetime battle to
control weight. AFAIC the less I weigh the longer
my life might be.

QJ

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 7:06:55 PM11/25/09
to
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 16:53:55 -0600, MU wrote
(in article <hekci4$sq3$1...@news.eternal-september.org>):


>
> Your opinion. My facts just kicked your concepts on WW, JC and Atkins to
> the gutter...where all trash belongs.

What facts. Can you cite established peer reviewed medical journals or a
university sites where these facts are published.


ver...@gefinden.com

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 8:22:29 PM11/25/09
to
"If 2PD-OMER Approach were a diet, it would not dovetail as easily with
a regular diet as it does with either Atkins or vegan diets.

>> It is by GOD's design that there exists one right amount of food for
>> humans (Exodus 16:16).
>>
>> It is not by chance that the chapter and verse numbers add up to 32
>> here (Proverbs 16:33).
>>
>> It is not by chance that the "hunger is starvation" delusion is
>> described in the middle of Genesis at verse 32.

Truth:

MoSn

unread,
Nov 25, 2009, 11:49:58 PM11/25/09
to
On Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:06:55 -0600, QJ wrote
(in article <0001HW.C73322BF...@news.x-privat.org>):

There are no real facts otherwise they would be in the medical journals and
even the mainstream media if the claims were true and Chung would be citing
those far more than his biblical quotes and citations and of course MU, who
may be a sock puppet, would be parroting them.

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Nov 26, 2009, 5:40:06 AM11/26/09
to

There is fear of death.

Starvation is synonymous with death.

"What good is my birthright if I die." -- Esau thinking he was
starving (Genesis 25:32)

When folks falsely believe that hunger is starvation, they falsely
also believe they are dying when they are hungry.

The latter does result in fear when hungry.

Mu, note that the verse# of the above verse that identifies the fiery
dart with "hunger is starvation" written on it reminds us of the right
amount of food we should all be eating daily (32 oz).

Therefore, we should always be saying "wonderfully hungry" whenever
greeted to keep for ever having a heart attack:

http://WDJW.net/Shield

Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and
other heart disease patients:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?

Marana tha

Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9ef5f0160bbd417c?

al

unread,
Nov 26, 2009, 10:09:01 AM11/26/09
to
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhDICK wrote:

>
>GOD, Whom this physician most
> assuredly without doubt **knows** and understands to be kind, just,
> and right


Tell that to all thed children born deaf, dumb, blind, crippled, and
deformed, you fuck nuckle.

MoSn

unread,
Nov 26, 2009, 10:34:06 AM11/26/09
to
On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 09:09:01 -0600, al wrote
(in article <hem5mc$dm0$1...@news.eternal-september.org>):

"Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"

("Kill them all. God will know His own")

Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, in the Albigensian Crusade, when asked by a
Crusader how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics

Ken

unread,
Nov 26, 2009, 11:44:43 AM11/26/09
</