> Yeah, good call on new thread.
Agreed. Sorry, Emma, for not doing this myself sooner. So, this is the new thread that forked from the discussion about KFADEN's logistical updates.
> maymay, just a terse response right now -- yes, I have secret information about Isaac's intentions, having struck up a conversation with him off-list about what he thought he might talk about.
> You make a really good point about a list of topics being a crucial tool for folks who are "trying to discern what KFADEN is going to be like". With that in mind, maybe that information shouldn't be tucked away solely in a column at the end of the sign up table? Maybe as people start to flesh out their topics, we should put together a separate list that has room for short expository blurbs? I mean, yeah, a lot of what's on the sign up chart (my entry included) is indeed cryptic or misleading, due at least in part to space constraints. Thoughts?
Yeah, I agree with you. That's something I've thought about in the past but have had no "good" solution to.
Since the sign up list is just a digital (HTML) table, there isn't a technical space constraint, just a visual one. That is, one could theoretically write a paragraph or two in that box and that would be technically feasible, but visually disruptive. Then again, the point of the sign up table is that it is a machine-readable format. There was some talk a while back about creating tools to use wiki page content as a semantic web-like back-end and develop different interfaces around it for different goals and to serve people with different technical needs. (There's a github repository for this but it is still embryonic.)
One possibility for now is to create a new KFADEN-associated page on the wiki, perhaps at http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllDenverTopicIdeas or similar, and use that page as a shared space for expository blurbs.
Alternatively, the KFADEN wiki homepage itself could serve that function by using comments. I.e., by way of "show me, don't tell me," I just left a comment on the KFADEN wiki homepage asking for more info/starting a conversation there. I don't know how well that can work, but I do know that the comments have a certain advantage over creating a new page: As new participants sign up on the KFADEN page on the wiki, comments/updates to that page will automatically get sent to new sign ups. (You can also opt-out of getting wiki notification updates by changing your preferences on the wiki.)
What are your thoughts?
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Yup. What Evey said.
In fact, I've just gone ahead and built on Ben's page on the wiki by adding headings, a table of contents, and then in a "show me, don't tell me," way of doing things, I've updated my own entry in the sign up table to link to my section of the "Topic Ideas" page. Have a look and let us know what you think?
I'm still unsure if this is a "good" thing or a "bad" thing (subjective, I know), but it's certainly an inexpensive experiment worth trying out. If it seems to produce positive results, it would be good to create a template out of the KinkForAllDenverTopicIdeas page for future events to copy easily.
If you've made an account, logged in, and hit the "edit" (vs "view") button near the top of the page, then I have no idea what else to try, sorry.
I feel like I should maybe apologize for the lengthy derail about presentation topics. But, having said that, it's felt to me like that conversation has been about people sharing their visions for the kinds of topics they would really be excited to see, rather than trying to censor the stuff that they're not into. (And personally, after hearing more about those visions, I'm more inspired to help make this event happen.)
And yeah, agreed, I think the Denver next-gen folks will come out in force for this, and I can't wait to see it.
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Ok question 1: How does the freaking site work for adding a
presentation? I have tried with three different browsers and it will
not let me edit.
Question 2: Why are we concerned what people are submitting, and what
the nature of their presentations are going to be?
My understanding from reading the info on the site is you put your
name on a board and people who are attending will get to choose what
they want to see. If censoring at the front end, you limit the
empowerment of those people who are attending to choose.
Unless I am
misunderstanding the entire point of this event, the entir point is
that everyone participates and has input.
You have to create an account before you can edit the page - but it just takes a sec. The 'Create an Account' link is on the lefthand side, next to a little blue flag icon.
> If you've made an account, logged in, and hit the "edit" (vs "view") button near the top of the page, then I have no idea what else to try, sorry.
There's a ~1 minute video tutorial for how to sign up on the wiki, linked to from the sign up page on the KFADEN wiki homepage:
Feel free to spread that link around to anyone who's having trouble signing up.
Also…hm…. Not to open a can of worms if it was already shut, but I feel this needs pointing out:
On Feb 2, 2012, at 7:21 PM, Jeff Jizz wrote:
> Why are we concerned what people are submitting, and what the nature of their presentations are going to be?
> Even people in other groups that have thrown in support on this list, are or have been in the BDSM scene, though not necessarily advertising it in the open.
> In this case, people attending choosing what they want to have presented. If this is not the case or how kinkforall is intended, then I suggest it get clarified very soon.
I think these sentences betrays the fact that some people have apparently missed the stunningly obvious fact that if there is, as Jeff says, a skew towards BDSM Scene involvement among people who have thrown in support for KinkForAll Denver, then the notion that "people attending can choose what they want to have presented" and *not* have those presentations be focused on BDSM-centric topics is far from likely.
In other words: "no matter how many times people tell me 'it’s all individual choice,' when *everyone* around you is into it, the fact is there’s very little that’s individual about it."
So *that's* "why…we [are] concerned what people are submitting, and what the nature of their presentations are going to be."
> I travel all over the USA and I can honestly say I am not seeing the shiftin mindset happening like it is here in Denver.
> As for how it is in other cities, without naming other groups, it has been attempted to carbon copy what has worked elsewhere and apply it to Denver more than once. It never works and there is a reason. We are not like any other city out there, and that is what makes this place great.
I travel all over the USA too, and I can honestly say that I've heard this "we are special" story EVERY. SINGLE. TIME I've gone to a new region. I do not believe it for 1 second. Not even a nano second.
So, pardon my skepticism about Denver's BDSM communities, but I'll believe that "Denver's special" when Denver's BDSM Scene PROVES to me that it is special. Not before. No matter who says it—even you. End of story.
> So when you say the event is open to everyone, does that include "traditional" bdsmers or does it not?
Traditional BDSM'ers are welcome to come and be made uncomfortable by me. ;)
If this isn't a safe space for everyone, it's not a safe space for
> If this isn't a safe space for everyone, it's not a safe space for anyone.
For the record, KinkForAll creates "public" space, not "safe" space. See, for instance, the Principles page:
> KinkForAll events create a public atmosphere in their location[…].
Rebecca's doing amazing work making KFADEN's public space be *welcoming* space, as well. But "welcoming" is also not definitionally "safe," and it'd be a silly mistake for anyone to confuse these two.
I, personally, think safe spaces are a very useful self-deception, but they are extremely exclusionary by design and thus carry an inherent tension with public space. Simply ask yourself: Safe space FOR WHOM? "Safe space" is just the inverse logic of "dangerous to the community." We don't get to simply reverse the logic of oppressors and call that inclusionary. That's some lazy, uncritical bullshit right there, and in my opinion the extremely pervasive way "safe space" is misrepresented is a damn big problem.
But that's a different rant and maybe a great KinkForAll topic, now that I think about it, so I'll save that for later. In fact, I just added "The Useful 'Safe Space' Self-Deception' to my proposed KinkForAll topic ideas. It'll probably draw heavily from a "diversity of tactics" mindset.
And just before I hit send, I noticed Alisa said this much nicer than I did as I was writing this email.
> I see that it was silly of me to use your own language and stated
> intent to destroy "safe spaces" for "privileged BDSM bullshit...".
> You get to use terms like "safe spaces", indicate that you're going to
> destroy something you say doesn't exist in the first place, and don't
> define what exactly "privileged BDSM bullshit" is.
I have written tomes about this, Saskia. You're more than welcome to peruse my archives and I'd caution you against thinking that I don't define my terms. You could start here:
I agree with Jeff; I'm done with this thread. I'm gonna go continue my work on getting other people I know in Denver to help us spread the word to additional diverse communities now.
I'm very much looking forward to seeing the fruits of our collective effort on that front. :)
> For what it's worth, I myself still fully intend to participate (and to be legible as someone with an interest in BDSM). maymay, if my presence is going to make the event worse for you, I'm truly sorry, but at this point I feel way too emotionally invested in the event to just opt out.
I'd be disappointed if you *didn't* participate, Ben. You've done so much great stuff for KFADEN so far and I'm excited to meet you. Moreover, I'm really eager to see what you have to say at KinkForAll Denver. :)
Also, in case it isn't clear to anyone reading, *I* am a "BDSM'er", so it sounds ridiculous to me that people think "BDSM'ers" (instead of what I actually said, which was "privileged BDSM bullshit") is going to make the event worse for me.
Want to reach some activist types? Go hit up theAnarchist Black Cross, Liberate Denver, Thunderdome and Occupy. I bet
there will be some interest. Shit I will help you reach any of these
> Mistress Saskia: maymay is only one of MANY people involved in this
> event. I'm personally extremely annoyed with his antagonistic
> bullshit in this thread, while at the same time mostly agreeing with
> the meat of his position.
I'd love to hear more about why you describe my antagonism as "bullshit" while at the same time mostly "agreeing with the meat" of what I'm saying. I find antagonism very valuable, nor do I find it to be the inverse of intimacy, as is so often mistakenly believed.
But that's a chat for another time, so given the opportunity, I'd love to sit with you over coffee to hear more of your views about this. Maybe Peet's, and I'll treat. :)