Additional Royal Ancestry for Sarah (Ferguson), Duchess of York

[Brad Verity]

I decided that before tackling the royal ancestry of Jack Brooksbank, and all the detailed lines posted by Gawain and others some months back, I needed to at least have his mother-in-law and her ancestry in my database.

I’ve finally completed entering all of the Duchess of York’s lines back to Edward I (at least all the ones that I could uncover). The end result is that I do have some lines that aren’t yet in the Genealogics and Roglo databases, and I’ll post them here to SocGenMed, for completion’s sake, if nothing else. I realize this overlaps with research into Sarah Ferguson’s ancestry undertaken and shared by Will Johnson, John Higgins and others over the years. I’ve tried to go back in the archives and re-read the past threads on Sarah’s ancestry, but I may well have missed some. If I post a line that was already covered previously, my apologies.

I’m fascinated by mtDNA lines, and what immediately struck me with the Duchess of York’s ancestry is that she is a direct mtDNA descendant of Lady Anne Clifford, Countess of Dorset and (later) of Pembroke (1590-1676), who was a genealogist herself in her own time, and whose research into her Clifford ancestors I’ve previously studied. Of course this mtDNA line continues into the next generation with Sarah’s daughters Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie, as well as their first cousins, Ayesha (Makim) Specker and Heidi Luedecke. In my database, I’ve traced Sarah’s mtDNA line back 18 generations to Elizabeth Howard, wife of Henry Wentworth of Codham Hall (d. 1483). As neither Elizabeth nor her husband descend from Edward I, I haven’t traced the line back any further, but Genealogics (thanks to Gerald Paget’s The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles) has it back a further two generations, to Margery, wife of Sir Henry Hussey.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00076296&tree=LEO

Has anyone been able to trace it even further back? It’s noteworthy that the Duchess of York’s mtDNA line can be traced back to the 14th-century, especially when compared to her royal ex-husband Prince Andrew, whose mtDNA line is traced (at least in Genealogics) only 8 generations back, to the 18th-century Ann Newland, wife of Edward Garritt.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00219247&tree=LEO

Turning to the Duchess of York’s paternal line, what’s interesting is how it really didn’t achieve gentry status until the end of the 19th-century. According to the ‘Ferguson of Dummer’ article in BLG (1972), the family seems to have originated in Ireland, in counties Down and Antrim, and can be traced back seven generations from Sarah, to the latter 18th-century. A 3xgreat-uncle, barrister-at-law Thomas Benyon Ferguson (1836-1874), was the first to marry into the Edward I bloodline, in 1869, followed by his widowed sister-in-law, Sophia (Holford) Ferguson, who took as her second husband, Sir Astley Paston Paston-Cooper, 3rd Baronet, in 1890. Genealogics (thanks to Debrett’s Book of the Royal Engagement (1986)) has much of the Ferguson/Holford ancestry. If anyone has done further research into it, and come across any lines back to the Plantagenets, I’d be interested in hearing about it.
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005778&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=7

Maj. Victor Ferguson, Lady Paston-Cooper’s eldest son, purchased Polebrook Hall in Northamptonshire in 1885. When he was killed on the Second Ashanti Expedition in January 1896, it was inherited by his next brother, Capt. Algernon Ferguson, one of the three aide-de-camps to the recently appointed governor of New South Wales, Viscount Hampden. A year later, in January 1897, the engagement of Capt. Ferguson to Viscount Hampden’s eldest daughter, Hon. Margaret Brand, was announced. It clearly was a love match, and the April 1897 wedding in Sydney’s St Andrew Cathedral was given royal wedding status by Australian society and press, including a 5-page illustrated spread in The Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/163793603?searchTerm=Algernon%20Ferguson&searchLimits=

Hon. Margaret (Brand) Ferguson had an extensive royal ancestry, including a line of descent from Charles II thru his illegitimate daughter Anne (Palmer), Countess of Sussex. One of Hon. Margaret’s paternal ancestors is Katherine (Cornwallis) Knollys, in Genealogics here, with only a father given:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00123702&tree=LEO

KATHERINE CORNWALLIS, bapt. 28 July 1591 St Stephen Walbrook, London; d. Jan. 1674 (will dated 15 Jan. 1674, proved 27 Jan. 1674); m. 25 Apr. 1609 St Martin in the Fields, London, Sir HENRY KNOLLYS of Grove Place, Nursling, Hampshire (b. unknown; bur. 9 Oct. 1638 St Boniface Church, Nursling, Hampshire), est. son of Henry Knollys of Chickenhall, North Stoneham, Hampshire & Joan Salmon.

Dame Katherine Knollys has two lines of descent from Edward I, one thru each of her parents.

Edward I had two daus A1 & B1 (see below)
A1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester, who had
A2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh, 2nd Lord Despenser (c.1289-1326), and had
A3) Isabel Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356) m. (div.) Richard Fitzalan, 3rd Earl of Arundel (c.1314-1376), and had
A4) Sir Edmund Arundel of Bignor (1327-c.1381) m. Lady Sybil Montagu (c.1327-aft.1371), and had
A5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399) m. 1) Sir Richard Cergeaux of Colquite (c.1340-1393), and had
A6) Philippa Cergeaux (1381-1420) m. 1) Sir Robert Pashley of Pashley (c.1370-1400), and had
A7) Anne Pashley (d. 1444) m. 2) Edward Tyrrell of Downham (d. 1442), and had
A8) Philippa Tyrrell (b. c.1435) m. Thomas Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1421-1484), and had
A9) William Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1470-1519) m. Elizabeth Stanford (d. 1537), and had
A10) Sir John Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1491-1544) m. Mary Sulyard, and had
A11) Richard Cornwallis of Okenhill Hall (d. bef.1581) m. Margaret Lowthe (c.1529-1603), and had
A12) Sir Thomas Cornwallis of Porchester Castle (d. 1618) m. Elizabeth Molyneux (see B11 below), and had
A13) Katherine Cornwallis (1591-1674) m. Sir Henry Knollys of Grove Place

B1) Elizabeth Plantagenet, Countess of Hereford, who had
B2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond (1305-1338), and had
B3) Lady Petronilla Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.1332-1387), and had
B4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (by 1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange (by 1361-1413), and had
B5) Mary Talbot (c.1382-1434) m. 1) Sir Thomas Greene of Greens Norton Hall (1369-1417), and had
B6) Sir Thomas Greene of Greens Norton Hall (1400-1462) m. 2) Marine Bellers (d. 1489), and had
B7) Elizabeth Greene m. Sir Bryan Sandford of Thorpe Salvin, and had
B8) Dorothy Sandford m. Richard Lascelles of Gateford (d. 1520), and had
B9) George Lascelles of Gateford (by 1499-1558) m. Dorothy Paynell, and had
B10) Anne Lascelles m. John Molyneux of Thorpe (d. 1588), and had
B11) Elizabeth Molyneux m. Sir Thomas Cornwallis of Portchester Castle (see A12 above)

More to follow.

Cheers, -----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 1:13:31 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> More to follow.

Another ancestor of Hon. Margaret (Brand) Ferguson, paternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York, is Honora (FitzGerald), Lady of Kerry & Lixnaw, who is in the Genealogics database here, with only a father given:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00060482&tree=LEO

HONORA FITZGERALD, b. c.1600; d. c.1680 (will dated 16 June 1680, proved unknown); m. by 1618, PATRICK FITZMAURICE, 18th Baron of Kerry & Lixnaw (b. 1595; d. London, bur. 5 Jan. 1661 St Giles in the Fields), son of Thomas Fitzmaurice, 17th Lord of Kerry & Lixnaw (1574-1630, descended from Edward I) & his 1st wife Lady Honora O’Brien (c.1575-1600, descended from Edward I).

Back in 2013, I had an extensive discussion with John Higgins and Derek Howard about the mother of Honora, Lady of Kerry & Lixnaw, whose name was also Honora, and who had been born a Fitzgerald, and whose two husbands were also Fitzgeralds:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/Edmund$20FitzGerald$20Cloyne/soc.genealogy.medieval/xcuagWCvfQE/am4yjngpzjgJ

As all of these Fitzgeralds quickly become very confusing, I’ll summarize. Honora Fitzgerald (d. c.1628, when her will was dated), of the Fitzgeralds of Carrigaline Castle, married 1st John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Ballymartyr Castle, seneschal of Imokilly (who d. a rebel Jan. 1589 Dublin Castle – he has an entry in ODNB), son of Edmund FitzMaurice Fitzgerald of Ballymartyr Castle, seneschal of Imokilly & Shylie O’Carroll (descended from Edward I), and had issue, two sons (Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Ballymartyr Castle, Richard FitzJohn Fitzgerald) and two daus (Katherine, Eleanor); Honora m. 2nd Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne Castle (b. c.1569; d. 10 Mar. 1612, bur. Cloyne Cathedral), son of Sir John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne Castle & Honor O’Brien, and had further issue, one son (Maurice Fitzgerald of Castle Ishen) and three daus (Ellen, wife of 5th Baron Inchiquin; Mary, wife of Owen O’Sullivan More; and Honora, wife of 18th Lord of Kerry & Lixnaw).

Honora (Fitzgerald), Lady of Kerry & Lixnaw, has two lines of descent from Edward I, both through her mother, Honora Fitzgerald of Carrigaline Castle.

Edward I had a dau
A1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford, who had
A2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond (1305-1338), and had
A3) James Butler, 2nd Earl of Ormond (1331-1382) m. Elizabeth Darcy (1332-1390), and had
A4) Lady Eleanor Butler (c.1350-1392) m. Gerald Fitzgerald, 3rd Earl of Desmond (c.1338-1398), and had a son A5 and a dau B5 (see below)
A5) James Fitzgerald, 6th Earl of Desmond (d. by1463) m. Mary de Burgh (d. 1435), and had
A6) Thomas Fitzgerald, 7th Earl of Desmond (c.1426-1468) m. Ellice Barry (see B7 below), and had
A7) John Fitzgerald, 12th Earl of Desmond (c.1466-1536) m. More O'Brien, and had
A8) Sir Maurice FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Carrigaline Castle (d. 1564) m. Julia O'Mulryan, and had
A9) James FitzMaurice Fitzgerald of Carrigaline Castle (d. 1579) m. Katherine Burke, and had
A10) Honora Fitzgerald (d. c.1628) m. 2) Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne Castle (c.1569-1612), and had
A11) Honora Fitzgerald (c.1600-c.1680) m. Patrick Fitzmaurice, 18th Lord of Kerry & Lixnaw

B5) Lady Ellice Fitzgerald m. John Barry, 10th Lord of Olethan (1367-1420), and had
B6) William Barry, 11th Lord of Olethan (d. 1480) m. Ellen Roche, and had
B7) Ellice Barry m. 1) Thomas Fitzgerald, 7th Earl of Desmond (see A6 above)

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 1:13:31 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> More to follow.

Another ancestor of Hon. Margaret (Brand) Ferguson, paternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York, is Sir Timothy Tyrrell of Oakley, who is in Genealogics with no parentage, here:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00310736&tree=LEO

Sir TIMOTHY TYRRELL, of Oakley, Buckinghamshire, b. c.1585; bur. 18 Dec. 1632 St Michael & All Angels Church, Thornton, Buckinghamshire; m. 22 Aug. 1613 All Saints Church, Marsworth, Buckinghamshire, ELEANOR KINGSMILL (b. c.1590; bur. 1 Sept. 1622 St Michael & All Angels Church, Thornton), dau. of Sir William Kingsmill of Sydmonton Court (1557-1618, descended from Edward I) & Anne Wilkes (b. 1558), and had issue, four sons and three daus.

Sir Timothy Tyrrell was the eldest son of Sir Edward Tyrrell of Thornton Hall and his second wife Margaret (Aston) Egerton. His mother has a line of descent from Edward III.

Edward III had a son
A1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399), who had
A2) Lady Joan Beaufort (1377-1440) m. 2) Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland (c.1364-1425), and had
A3) Richard Neville, 1st Earl of Salisbury (c.1398-1460) m. Lady Alice Montagu (1406-1462, descended from Edward I), and had
A4) Lady Eleanor Neville (c.1436-1471) m. Thomas Stanley, 1st Earl of Derby (c.1434-1504, descended from Edward I), and had
A5) Rev. James Stanley, Bishop of Ely (c.1465-1515) = “his housekeeper at Somersham” [ODNB], and had
A6) Margery Stanley, illegit. (b. c.1485) m. Sir John Ireland of The Hutt (c.1475-1525), and had
A7) Thomas Ireland of The Hutt (1503-1546) m. Margaret Bold (b. c.1505, descended from Edward I), and had
A8) Margaret Ireland (c.1527-1595) m. 1) John Aston of Aston Hall (c.1520-1573, descended from Edward I), and had
A9) Margaret Aston (c.1552-1632) m. 2) Sir Edward Tyrrell of Thornton Hall (see B12 below), and had
A10) Sir Timothy Tyrrell of Oakley (c.1585-1632)

In addition to his maternal line Edward I descents referenced above, Sir Timothy Tyrrell also has a line of descent from that monarch through his father, which Will Johnson hinted at back in 2008.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/1hmbO2nvCCA/iDXscdpMDnoJ

Edward I had a dau

B1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester, who had
B2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh, 2nd Lord Despenser (c.1289-1326), and had
B3) Isabel Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356) m. (div.) Richard Fitzalan, 3rd Earl of Arundel (c.1314-1376), and had
B4) Sir Edmund Arundel of Bignor (1327-c.1381) m. Lady Sybil Montagu (c.1327-aft.1371), and had
B5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399) m. 1) Sir Richard Cergeaux of Colquite (c.1340-1393), and had
B6) Elizabeth Cergeaux (b. c.1371) m. Sir William Marney of Layer Marney (c.1370-1414), and had
B7) Anne Marney m. Sir Thomas Tyrrell of Heron Hall (c.1411-1476), and had
B8) Thomas Tyrrell of South Ockendon Hall (d. 1473) m. Elizabeth Bruyn (d. 1494), and had
B9) William Tyrrell of Groves Hall (d. c.1534) m. Elizabeth Bodley (d. by 1530), and had
B10) Humphrey Tyrrell of Thornton Hall (d. 1549) m. Jane Ingleton (1502-1557), and had
B11) George Tyrrell of Thornton Hall (c.1530-1571) m. 1) Helen Montagu (d. by 1557), and had
B12) Sir Edward Tyrrell of Thornton Hall (1551-1606) m. 2) Margaret Aston (see A9 above)

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 1:13:31 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> More to follow.

Back in 2008, Will Johnson and John Higgins posted to the newsgroup about the Grantham ancestry of Sarah, Duchess of York:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/1hmbO2nvCCA/ySb6962A2nYJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/1hmbO2nvCCA/KSTQrVYT7M0J

I don’t know why Leo never entered the Grantham ancestry into his database (perhaps because it was only linked, and not laid out in full, by Will and John), though Will did lay out some of it in a subsequent post.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/G9OALfocbGQ/jQmjaYal0ZMJ

At any rate, Genealogics has Thomas Grantham (an ancestor of Hon. Margaret (Brand) Ferguson, paternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York), with no parentage:
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00655078&tree=LEO

THOMAS GRANTHAM of Goltho Hall, Lincolnshire, b. c.1633 (his parents were married 18 Oct. 1632 St Mary Church, Swine, Yorkshire); d. 1 Apr. 1668 Fixby Hall, Yorkshire, bur. St Mary Church, Elland, Yorkshire; m. 12 Jan. 1658 St Peter Church, Woolley, Yorkshire, FRANCES WENTWORTH (bap. 1 Dec. 1631 St Peter Church, Woolley; d. 12 Mar. 1693, bur. 16 Mar. 1693 St Mary Church, Elland), dau. of Sir George Wentworth of Woolley Hall (1599-1660, descended from Edward III) & his 2nd wife Everild Maltby (1605-1639, mtDNA descendant of Anne of Exeter, sister of Richard III).

Thomas Grantham was the son of Thomas Grantham of Goltho Hall (1612-1655) and Dorothy Alford (d. 1673). Much of his ancestry can be worked out in the Grantham of St. Katharine’s, Lincoln, and Goltho pedigree in Maddison’s Lincolnshire Pedigrees Vol. 2, which John Higgins had linked back in 2008:
https://archive.org/details/lincolnshirepedi02madd/page/92

Thomas Grantham has five lines of descent from Edward I. Two of them are as follows.

Edward I had a son A1 and a dau B1 (see below)
A1) Thomas of Brotherton, 1st Earl of Norfolk, who had
A2) Margaret of Brotherton, 1st Duchess of Norfolk, who had
A3) Elizabeth de Segrave (1338-1366) m. John, 4th Lord Mowbray (1340-1368), and had
A4) Joan Mowbray (c.1363-1410) m. 1) Sir Thomas Gray of Heaton Castle (1359-1400), and had
A5) Maud Gray (c.1386-aft.1451) m. Sir Robert Ogle of Ogle Castle (c.1370-1436), and had
A6) Elizabeth Ogle (b. c.1404) m. 1) Sir William Heron of Ford Castle (1400-1425), and had
A7) Elizabeth Heron (1424-aft.1498) m. Sir John Heron of Ford Castle (c.1414-1461), and had
A8) Elizabeth Heron (c.1450-by 1493) m. Sir Robert Tailboys of South Kyme (c.1445-1495, descended from Edward I), and had
A9) Maud Tailboys m. Sir Robert Tyrwhitt of Kettleby Hall (c.1482-1548), and had
A10) Anne Tyrwhitt m. William Hansard of South Kelsey (1501-1522), and had
A11) Elizabeth Hansard (1522-1558) m. Sir Francis Ayscough of Stallingborough Hall (see B11 below), and had
A12) Elizabeth Ayscough (c.1550-1583) m. 1) Vincent Grantham of Goltho Hall (d. 1581), and had
A13) Sir Thomas Grantham of Goltho Hall (1573-1630) m. 1) Frances Puckering (d. 1619), and had
A14) Thomas Grantham of Goltho Hall (1612-1655) m. Dorothy Alford (d. 1673), and had
A15) Thomas Grantham of Goltho Hall (c.1633-1668)

B1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester, who had
B2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh, 2nd Lord Despenser (c.1289-1326), and had
B3) Sir Edward Despenser of Essendine (c.1311-1342) m. Anne Ferrers (c.1315-1367), and had
B4) Edward, 4th Lord Despenser (1336-1375) m. Elizabeth Burghersh (1342-1409), and had
B5) Anne Despenser (c.1363-1426) m. 1) Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing (by 1355-1386), and had
B6) Sir Edward Hastings of Elsing (1382-1438) m. 1) Muriel Dinham (c.1390-by 1420, descended from Edward I), and had
B7) John Hastings of Gressenhall (1412-1477) m. Anne Morley (c.1420-1471, descended from Edward I), and had
B8) Elizabeth Hastings m. Sir Robert Hildyard of Winestead Hall (d. 1501), and had
B9) Margery Hildyard (b. c.1466) m. Sir William Ayscough of Stallingborough Hall (c.1465-1510), and had
B10) Sir William Ayscough of Stallingborough Hall (by 1486-1540) m. 1) Elizabeth Wrottesley (d. 1521), and had
B11) Sir Francis Ayscough of Stallingborough Hall (by 1518-1564) m. 1) Elizabeth Hansard (see A11 above)

The next post will have some Edward III descents – hopefully I’ll get it up tomorrow.

Cheers, ------Brad

[leslie...@gmail.com]

Timothy Tyrrell is also duplicated here in Genealogics,
with only his mother's ancestry:

http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00524779&tree=LEO

The two accounts should be merged shortly.


Leslie

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 10:36:42 PM UTC-7, lma...@att.net wrote:
> Timothy Tyrrell is also duplicated here in Genealogics,
> with only his mother's ancestry:
> http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00524779&tree=LEO
> The two accounts should be merged shortly.

Great Leslie - thank you.

I see that Genealogics has the burial entry for Margaret (Aston) (Egerton) Tyrrell - I've been looking for that, very helpful.

There's no ancestry for Margaret's father John Aston. He has an Edward I descent.

JOHN ASTON of Aston Hall, Cheshire, b. c. 1520; d. 5 Aug. 1573; m. c.1545, MARGARET IRELAND (b. c.1527; bur. 21 Jan. 1594/5 St Helen Church, Tarpoley, Cheshire), dau. of Thomas Ireland of The Hutt (1503-1546, descended from Edward III) & Margaret Bold (descended from Edward I).

Edward I had a dau

A1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester, who had
A2) Lady Margaret de Clare (1293-1342) m. 2) Hugh Audley, 1st Earl of Gloucester, and had
A3) Lady Margaret Audley (c.1321-1349) m. Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford, and had
A4) Lady Beatrice Stafford (c.1345-1415) m. 2) Thomas, 4th Lord Ros of Helmsley, and had
A5) William, 6th Lord Ros of Helmsley (c.1369-1414) m. Margaret Fitzalan, and had
A6) Margaret de Ros (c.1403-by 1429) m. James Tuchet, 5th Lord Audley, and had
A7) Anne Tuchet (c.1427-1503) m. 1) Sir Thomas Dutton of Dutton Hall (1421-1459), and had
A8) Margaret Dutton m. Thomas Aston, Heir of Aston Hall (d. 1484), and had
A9) Richard Aston of Aston Hall (d. 1529) m. Dulcia Warburton, and had
A10) Thomas Aston of Aston Hall (d. 1553) m. Bridget Harewell, and had
A11) John Aston of Aston Hall (c.1520-1573)

Cheers, ----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 8:00:48 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> The next post will have some Edward III descents – hopefully I’ll get it up tomorrow.

There is some confusion regarding the identity of the wife of Sir Richard Pyne, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, an ancestor of Hon. Margaret (Brand) Ferguson, paternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York.

Sir Richard’s Wikipedia entry identifies his wife as Lucy, daughter of the Duke of Montagu, citing Debrett’s Peerage as its source.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pyne

The Roglo database further identifies her as Lucy, daughter of Ralph, 1st Duke of Montagu, with an unknown mother.
http://roglo.eu/roglo?lang=en;i=344379

It’s possible the error originated because the mother-in-law of Henry Pyne, Sir Richard’s son and heir, was Lady Anne (Montagu) Edgcumbe, daughter of the 1st Earl of Sandwich. At any rate, the only daughter of Ralph, 1st Duke of Montagu, was Lady Anne Montagu (1674-1742), wife first of Alexander Popham, then of Lt-Gen. Daniel Harvey.

The 1705 marriage licence of Sir Richard’s son Henry Pyne proves that his mother’s first name was ‘Catherine’ not ‘Lucy’.
https://archive.org/details/allegationsforma26byuches/page/334

The Genealogics database has her correctly identified as Catherine Wandesford, but with no parentage.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00658115&tree=LEO

KATHERINE WANDESFORD, b. Kirklington Hall, Yorkshire, bap. 26 Mar. 1664 St Michael Church, Kirklington; d. 21 Feb. 1731 London, bur. 24 Feb. 1731 St Margaret Church, Westminster; m. by 1687, as his 3rd wife, Sir RICHARD PYNE of Waterpark, co. Cork, Ireland, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland 1695-1709 (b. c.1644 co. Cork; d. Ashley Park, Walton-on-Thames, Surrey, bur. 22 Dec. 1709 St Mary Church, Walton-on-Thames), 4th son of Nicholas Pyne of Mogeely, co. Cork (d. 1670) & Jane Tynte.

For those wishing to trace the ancestry of Sir Richard Pyne, it appears ‘The Pynes of Co. Cork’ by H.F. Morris in ‘The Irish Genealogist Vol. 6 (1985), is the best place to start. I’ve not yet seen the article.

Dame Katherine Pyne was the daughter of Sir Christopher Wandesford, 1st Baronet of Kirklington and Eleanor Lowther, both of whom descend from Edward III. Sir Christopher’s one line is given below, but as the Lowthers are a well-covered family, I’ll only lay out one line for Eleanor, her mtDNA one to the point where it intersects with the Edward III bloodline.

Edward III had

A1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399), who had

A2) Lady Joan Beaufort (1377-1440) m. 1) Sir Robert Ferrers of Wem (c.1372-1396), and had
A3) Elizabeth Ferrers (1393-1434) m. John, 4th Lord Greystoke (c.1390-1436), and had
A4) Ralph, 5th Lord Greystoke (1414-1487) m. 1) Elizabeth Fitzhugh (c.1420-1469), and had
A5) Mary Greystoke (c.1450-1496) m. 1) Thomas Salvin of Newbiggin Hall (d. 1477, descended from Edward I), and had
A6) Sir Ralph Salvin of Newbiggin Hall (1473-1534) m. Elizabeth Hastings (descended from Edward I), and had
A7) Anne Salvin (c.1503-1588) m. William Daniell of Beswick Hall (c.1500-1540), and had
A8) William Daniell of Beswick Hall (c.1520-1556) m. Elizabeth Smethley (d. 1580), and had
A9) Isabella Daniell (c.1547-1597) m. Ralph Hansby of Bishop Burton Hall (d. 1618), and had
A10) Katherine Hansby m. Sir George Wandesford of Kirklington Hall (1573-1612), and had
A11) Sir Christopher Wandesford of Kirklington Hall (1592-1640, has an entry in ODNB) m. Alice Osborne (1592-1659), and had
A12) Sir Christopher Wandesford, 1st Baronet of Kirklington (1628-1687) m. Eleanor Lowther (see B13 below), and had
A13) Katherine Wandesford (1664-1731), 3rd wife of Sir Richard Pyne, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland

B1) Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (1338-1368), who had
B2) Philippa Plantagenet, 5th Countess of Ulster (1355-1377), who had
B3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry ‘Hotspur’ Percy (1364-1403), and had
B4) Lady Elizabeth Percy (c.1395-1436) m. 1) John, 7th Lord Clifford (1388-1422, descended from Edward I), and had
B5) Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford (1414-1455) m. Joan Dacre (c.1417-c.1452, descended from Edward I), and had
B6) John, 9th Lord Clifford (1435-1461) m. Margaret Bromflete (c.1436-1493), and had
B7) Henry, 10th Lord Clifford (1454-1523) m. 1) Anne St John (c.1468-1508), and had
B8) Anne Clifford (c.1496-bef.1546) m. 1) Robert Clifton of Clifton Hall (by 1487-1517), and had
B9) Dorothy Clifton (b. 1517) m. Christopher Pickering of Cleasby (c.1515-by 1567, descended from Edward I), and had
B10) Winifred Pickering (c.1550-1589) m. Henry Crackenthorpe of Newbiggin Hall (c.1550-1593), and had
B11) Barbara Crackenthorpe (b. 1582) m. Sir Richard Fletcher of Hutton le Forest (d. 1637), and had
B12) Mary Fletcher (c.1608-1648) m. Sir John Lowther, 1st Baronet of Lowther (1606-1675, descended from Edward III), and had
B13) Eleanor Lowther (1633-1714) m. Sir Christopher Wandesford, 1st Baronet of Kirklington (see A12 above)

Finally, it’s interesting that Dame Katherine Pyne’s father Sir Christopher Wandesford, 1st Baronet held the same mtDNA as that held by his descendant Sarah (Ferguson), Duchess of York.

C1) Elizabeth Howard m. Henry Wentworth of Codham Hall (d. 1483), and had
C2) Margery Wentworth (d. 1540) m. Sir William Waldegrave of Smallbridge Hall (1462-1528), and had
C3) Dorothy Waldegrave (d. 1564) m. Sir John Spring of Lavenham (d. 1547), and had
C4) Bridget Spring m. Thomas Fleetwood of The Vache (1517-1570), and had
C5) Joyce Fleetwood (d. 1619) m. Sir Hewett Osborne of Kniveton (1567-1599), and had
C6) Alice Osborne (1592-1659) m. Sir Christopher Wandesford of Kirklington Hall (see A11 above), and had
C7) Sir Christopher Wandesford, 1st Baronet of Kirklington

More to follow.

Cheers, ------Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 12:55:22 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> More to follow.

Two of the four paternal great-grandparents of Sarah, Duchess of York, do not have any (apparent) royal ancestry. The marriage of one of them, Capt. (later Brig-Gen.) Algernon Ferguson, to the Hon. Margaret Brand, has already been discussed. The other great-grandparent without any royal ancestry was the Lady Herbert Scott.

Marie Edwards was the youngest daughter of an Essex customs clerk of Irish heritage, and his Irish-born wife. But when the engagement and marriage notices hit the newspapers in 1905, the focus was on the fact that she was the niece of George Edwardes, the theatrical impresario who managed the Gaiety Theatre in London’s West End (he has an entry in ODNB).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Edwardes

A society columnist in The Tatler summed it up best: “The engagement of Lord Herbert Scott was quite a brief one, and the marriage—coming so soon after the first announcement—found some people still asking, ‘Who is she?’ The new Lady Herbert Scott, who was Miss Marie Edwardes, is a niece of Mr. George Edwardes and is a very smart, pretty-looking, fair girl, not above the middle height. They first met in Malta about a year ago, when Lord Herbert was on duty out there on the staff of the Governor, Sir Charles Mansfield Clarke, so the whole affair is quite romantic. As Lord Herbert is the favourite son of the duchess [of Buccleuch] there was quite a splash made at Montagu House over the wedding, her grace and the family coming to London specially for the event…Lord Herbert Scott has always had a hankering after the stage, and his great ambition has been to produce something which would take the town by storm…He has written several pieces for private theatricals at Dalkeith which were considered rather smart, and I believe other productions of his have been staged at regimental fêtes.”

The one photo that I could find of Marie, in the year she became Lady Herbert Scott, proves that she was indeed short in stature as the columnist alluded, and also stunningly beautiful. And though his marriage never led Lord Herbert Scott to a theatrical career—two years later in 1907, he resigned from the army and joined the board of Rolls Royce, eventually becoming chairman in 1936 until his death in 1944—it was a great success. The Duchess of York’s father, Maj. Ronald Ferguson, in his 1994 autobiography The Galloping Major, recalls his Scott grandparents as being much fun and describes several warm memories of them.

Lord Herbert Scott of course was a direct y-DNA descendant of Charles II. Indeed, the Duke of Buccleuch is the senior representative of James, Duke of Monmouth, the ill-fated firstborn of Charles II’s several illegitimate sons, and per Major Ferguson’s autobiography, the Buccleuches consider their ancestry to be superior to that of the House of Windsor. Be that as it may, the lineage of the Montagu-Douglas-Scotts is a well-travelled road in the peerage works, and I personally have nothing to add to the extensive account of it provided in the Genealogics database:
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005594&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=7

Turning to the maternal ancestry of the Duchess of York, all four of her great-grandparents on that side have lines of descent from Edward I and later British monarchs. The Wrights originated as a dynasty of Nottingham bankers in the 18th-century, their first intersection with the Edward I bloodline occurring at the close of that century, in the marriage of John Wright to Elizabeth Beresford.

ELIZABETH BERESFORD, bap. 22 Sept. 1762 St Mary Church, Nottingham; d. 18 Dec. 1833 Lenton Hall, Nottinghamshire, bur. 24 Dec. 1833 Holy Trinity Church, Lenton; m. 26 Apr. 1791 St Oswald Church, Ashbourne, Derbyshire, JOHN WRIGHT of Lenton Hall, banker, b. 7 Aug. 1758 Nottingham, bap. 29 Aug. 1758 Castle Gate Meeting House (Independent), Nottingham; d. 21 Apr. 1840 Lenton Firs Lodge, bur. 28 Apr. 1840 Holy Trinity Church, Lenton, son of John Wright of Nottingham, banker (1723-1789) & Ann Sherbrooke (1721-1792).

Elizabeth (Beresford) Wright was the daughter of Francis Beresford of Ashbourne, barrister-at-law, and Fanny Reynolds, both of whom have lines back to Edward I. The Genealogics and Roglo databases don’t yet show any of these lines. I have ten Edward I lines for Elizabeth’s father Francis Beresford.

Edward I had two daus A1 & G1 & a son E1 (see below)
A1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had
A2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m. Elizabeth Badlesmere, and had
A3) Lady Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of Arundel, and had
A4) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of Hoveringham, and had
A5) Joan Goushill m. Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley (1406-1459), and had a son A6 & a dau C6 (see below)
A6) Sir William Stanley of Holt Castle (c.1435-1495) m. 2) Elizabeth Hopton (see E7 below), and had
A7) Jane Stanley m. Sir John Warburton of Warburton (d. 1523), and had
A8) Ellen Warburton m. John Carrington of Carrington (c.1495-1549), and had
A9) Jane Carrington m. Edward Holland of Denton Hall (d. 1570), and had a dau A10 & a son B10 (see below)
A10) Mary Holland (d. 1619) m. John Arderne of Harden Hall (d. 1613), and had
A11) Henry Arderne of Harden Hall (1580-1623) m. Margaret Legh (see C11 below), and had
A12) Mary Arderne (1605-1684) m. Francis Beresford of Fenny Bentley (c.1599-1671), and had
A13) Francis Beresford, Heir of Fenny Bentley (1629-1666) m. Frances Holland (see B12 below), and had
A14) John Beresford of Fenny Bentley (c.1654-1724) m. 2) Elizabeth Shallcross (c.1660-1745), and had
A15) John Beresford of Fenny Bentley (c.1688-1755) m. Frances Fitzherbert (see H17 below), and had
A16) Francis Beresford of Ashbourne (1737-1801) m. Fanny Reynolds (1740-1815, descended from Edward III), and had
A17) Elizabeth Beresford (1762-1833) m. John Wright of Lenton Hall

B10) Edward Holland of Denton Hall (c.1550-1631) m. Anne Gamull (d. 1640), and had
B11) Richard Holland of Heaton Hall (c.1596-1661) m. Katherine Ramsden (see F13 below), and had
B12) Frances Holland (1629-1688) m. Francis Beresford, Heir of Fenny Bentley (see A13 above)

C6) Katherine Stanley m. Sir John Savage of Clifton (c.1423-1495), and had two daus C7 & D7 (see below)
C7) Katherine Savage m. Thomas Legh of Adlington Hall (1452-1519), and had
C8) George Legh of Adlington Hall (1497-1529) m. Jane Larke (c.1490-1532), and had
C9) Thomas Legh of Adlington Hall (1527-1548) m. Mary Grosvenor (d. 1599), and had
C10) Thomas Legh of Adlington Hall (1547-1602) m. Sibyl Brereton (see D10 below), and had
C11) Margaret Legh (1582-1653) m. 1) Henry Arderne of Harden Hall (see A11 above)

D7) Margaret Savage m. 1) John Honford of Handforth Hall (c.1435-1478), and had
D8) William Honford of Handforth Hall (c.1473-1513) m. Sibyl Stargell, and had
D9) Margaret Honford (1503-by 1547) m. 2) Sir Urian Brereton of Handforth Hall (d. 1577), and had
D10) Sibyl Brereton (c.1545-1609) m. Thomas Legh of Adlington Hall (see C10 above)

E1) Thomas of Brotherton, 1st Earl of Norfolk (1300-1338), who had
E2) Margaret of Brotherton, 1st Duchess of Norfolk (c.1322-1399), who had
E3) Elizabeth Segrave (1338-1366) m. John, 4th Lord Mowbray, and had two daus E4 & F4 (see below)
E4) Margaret Mowbray (c.1361-by 1401) m. Sir Reginald Lucy of Dallington (by 1360-1437), and had
E5) Sir Walter Lucy of Dallington (c.1380-1444) m. Eleanor Arcedekne (1383-1447), and had
E6) Eleanor Lucy (c.1406-bef.1460) m. Thomas Hopton of Hopton Castle (by 1399-aft.1453), and had
E7) Elizabeth Hopton (1427-1498) m. 3) Sir William Stanley of Holt Castle (see A6 above)

F4) Eleanor Mowbray m. John, 5th Lord Welles (1352-1421), and had
F5) Sir Eudo Welles (c.1380-aft.1407) m. Maud Greystoke, and had
F6) Leo, 6th Lord Welles (1406-1461) m. 1) Joan Waterton (d. by 1447), and had
F7) Margaret Welles (c.1440-1480) m. 1) Sir Thomas Dymoke of Scrivelsby Court (c.1428-1470), and had
F8) Jane Dymoke m. John Fulnetby of Fulnetby Hall (c.1455-1528), and had
F9) Margaret Fulnetby m. Thomas Reresby of Thrybergh Hall (see G9 below), and had
F10) Lionel Reresby of Thrybergh Hall m. Anne Swift (d. 1587), and had
F11) Barbara Reresby m. Thomas Pilkington of Bradley Hall (d. 1565), and had
F12) Rosamond Pilkington (c.1560-1597) m. William Ramsden of Longley Hall (1558-1623), and had
F13) Katherine Ramsden (1593-aft.1661) m. Richard Holland of Heaton Hall (see B11 above)

G1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester (1272-1307), who had three daus G2, I2 & J2 (see below)
G2) Lady Elizabeth de Clare (1295-1360), who had
G3) Isabel de Verdun (1317-1349) m. Henry, 2nd Lord Ferrers of Groby, and had a dau G4 & a son H4 (see below)
G4) Elizabeth Ferrers (c.1336-1375) m. 1) David Strabolgi, 12th Earl of Atholl, and had
G5) Lady Elizabeth Strabolgi (1361-1416) m. 2) Sir John le Scrope of Hollinhall (c.1355-1405), and had
G6) Elizabeth Scrope (c.1403-1455) m. 1) Thomas Clarell of Aldwark Hall (c.1394-1450), and had
G7) Elizabeth Clarell (1423-1503) m. Sir Richard Fitzwilliam of Aldwark Hall (d. 1479), and had
G8) Margaret Fitzwilliam (c.1445-1505) m. Ralph Reresby of Thrybergh Hall (c.1440-1528), and had
G9) Thomas Reresby of Thrybergh Hall (c.1473-1543) m. Margaret Fulnetby (see F9 above)

H4) William, 3rd Lord Ferrers of Groby (1333-1371) m. 1) Lady Margaret Ufford, and had
H5) Henry, 4th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1356-1388) m. Joan Poynings, and had
H6) William, 5th Lord Ferrers of Groby (1372-1445) m. 1) Philippa Clifford, and had
H7) Thomas Ferrers of Flecknoe (c.1395-1459) m. Elizabeth Freville, and had
H8) Sir Thomas Ferrers of Tamworth Castle (1422-1498) m. Anne Hastings, and had
H9) Isabel Ferrers m. Sir Ralph Longford of Longford (1448-1513), and had
H10) Isabel Longford m. William Coke of Trusley Hall (d. 1518), and had
H11) William Coke of Trusley Hall (d. 1575) m. Dorothy Fitzherbert (d. 1558), and had
H12) Richard Coke of Trusley Hall (d. 1582) m. Mary Sacheverell (d. 1580), and had
H13) Sir Francis Coke of Trusley Hall (1561-1639) m. 2) Elizabeth Curzon (see I12 below), and had
H14) William Coke of Trusley Hall (1594-1641) m. 1) Maud Beresford (c.1591-1629), and had
H15) Mary Coke (1621-1691) m. John Fitzherbert of Somersal Herbert Hall (1621-1691), and had
H16) John Fitzherbert of Somersal Herbert Hall (1659-1726) m. Elizabeth Neale (d. 1700), and had
H17) Frances Fitzherbert (c.1693-1765) m. John Beresford of Fenny Bentley (see A15 above)

I2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337), who had
I3) Sir Edward Despenser (c.1311-1342) m. Anne Ferrers, and had
I4) Edward, 4th Lord Despenser (1336-1375) m. Elizabeth Burghersh, and had
I5) Margaret Despenser (c.1368-1415) m. Robert, 5th Lord Ferrers of Chartley (see J5 below), and had
I6) Edmund, 6th Lord Ferrers of Chartley (c.1386-1435) m. Ellen Roche, and had
I7) Margaret Ferrers (c.1417-1487) m. John, 1st Lord Beauchamp of Powick (c.1400-1475), and had
I8) Richard, 2nd Lord Beauchamp of Powick (by 1435-1503) m. Elizabeth Stafford, and had
I9) Anne Beauchamp (by 1472-1534) m. Sir Richard Lygon of Madresfield Court (c.1471-1512), and had
I10) Elizabeth Lygon m. Thomas Curzon of Croxall (d. 1540), and had
I11) George Curzon of Croxall (d. 1591) m. Katherine Babington, and had
I12) Elizabeth Curzon (d. 1632) m. 2) Sir Francis Coke of Trusley Hall (see H13 above)

J2) Lady Margaret de Clare (1293-1342), who had
J3) Lady Margaret Audley (c.1321-1349) m. Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford, and had
J4) Lady Elizabeth Stafford (1336-1375) m. 2) John, 4th Lord Ferrers of Chartley (1331-1367), and had
J5) Robert, 5th Lord Ferrers of Chartley (1357-1413) m. 2) Margaret Despenser (see I5 above)

The next post will be an addition to Ruvigny’s Mortimer-Percy volume.

Cheers, ----Brad

[leslie...@gmail.com]

On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 2:08:03 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 12:55:22 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> > More to follow.
>
> Two of the four paternal great-grandparents of Sarah, Duchess of York, do not have any (apparent) royal ancestry. The marriage of one of them, Capt. (later Brig-Gen.) Algernon Ferguson, to the Hon. Margaret Brand, has already been discussed. The other great-grandparent without any royal ancestry was the Lady Herbert Scott.

--------------- Algernon Ferguson is a descendant of Daniel Benyon and
Mary Knight, married at Shrewsbury in 1637.

The ancestry of Daniel Benyon, going back into the 1400s, is traced in Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological
and Natural History Society, 3rd Series, vol. 6 (1906):


https://books.google.com/books?id=9JM_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=Daniel+Benyon+mary+knight&source=bl&ots=EN4--43Gq5&sig=ACfU3U3oMNrUF6Yh0FiKrkJojKLS5qsUPw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqrbDmnu_hAhWSjp4KHX-gAk8Q6AEwAXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=Daniel%20Benyon%20mary%20knight&f=false


A posting to this newsgroup from 2005, gives an alleged descent for this family from Maredudd ap Bleddyn, d. 1132, King of Powys, which certainly needs to be verified:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/soc.genealogy.medieval/daniel$20benyon%7Csort:date/soc.genealogy.medieval/79c7Th_c6M8/UCXylzcyTT8J


Leslie

[wjhonson]

Not saying I disagree. I just want to point out that Richard Pyne married successively *two* women named Catherine.

His third wife, was as you say Catherine /Wandesford/ bap 26 Mar 1664/1665 Kirklington, Yorkshire (Batch P007911) died 21 Feb 1731 London; "aged 64" bur. St Margaret's Westminster

However his second wife was Catherine /Norton/ daughter of George /Norton/ of Abbot's Leigh, Somerset; Knt b 1622 by his wife Ellen /Owen/ daughter of William /Owen/ of Condover, co Salop; Sheriff Shropshire 1623; esq; Knt -1640-

[Brad Verity]

On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 2:08:03 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> The next post will be an addition to Ruvigny’s Mortimer-Percy volume.

Sarah (Beresford) Wright’s maternal grandfather, Rev. Benjamin Reynolds, appears on p. 92 of Ruvigny’s 1911 Mortimer-Percy volume, with no indication of his marriage, or of his daughter Fanny (Reynolds) Beresford. Rev. Benjamin was the eldest of six children, and none of his five younger siblings—Elizabeth (1705-1706); Frances (1707-1775), wife of Thomas Deverell of Swanbourne; John Reynolds of Hoggeston (1709-1789); Barbara (1711-aft.1780), wife of John Anstee of Swanbourne; Anna Maria (1714-1779), second wife of Rev. John Mosse, Rector of Great Hampden—appear in Ruvigny, even though it appears that at least two of them, Barbara Anstee and Anna Maria Mosse, left issue.
https://archive.org/details/plantagenetrollo01ruvi/page/92

From the baptism entry for Fanny (Reynolds) Beresford, the first name of her mother was ‘Frances’. In a 1780 codicil to his will (proved 10 July 1789, accessed thru the P.C.C. database on Ancestry), John Reynolds of Hoggeston makes a bequest to his sister-in-law Frances Reynolds, and appoints his niece Fanny Beresford his executor. The Hoggeston burial register for the latter half of the 18th-century hasn’t yet made it into online databases, so I’ve been unable to locate burial entries for Rev. Benjamin Reynolds, his wife Frances, or his brother John Reynolds. Nor have I located a marriage entry for Rev. Benjamin Reynolds and his wife Frances. One WikiTree database states that Webster was the maiden name of Rev. Benjamin Reynold’s wife. One of the sources it lists (along with Ruvigny and Oxford University Alumni, neither of which identify Rev. Benjamin’s wife) is “Beresford family tree in family possession.” At this point, that’s the closest we can get to her identification.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Reynolds-8142

Following is the Edward III descent for Elizabeth (Beresford) Wright, as given in Ruvigny, with additional details added.

Edward III had a 2nd surviving son:

1) Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (1338-1368), who had

2) Philippa Plantagenet, 5th Countess of Ulster (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March (1352-1381), and had

3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry ‘Hotspur’ Percy (1364-1403), and had

4) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland (1394-1455) m. Lady Eleanor Neville (1403-1472, descended from Edward III), and had
5) Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461) m. Eleanor Poynings (1428-1484, descended from Edward I), and had
6) Henry Percy, 4th Earl of Northumberland (c.1449-1489) m. Lady Maud Herbert (c.1457-by 1487), and had
7) Henry Algernon Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland (1478-1527) m. Katherine Spencer (1477-1542, descended from Edward III), and had
8) Sir Thomas Percy of Prudhoe Castle (c.1505-1537) m. Eleanor Harbottle (1504-1567, descended from Edward III), and had
9) Mary Percy (1531-1598) m. Francis Slingsby of Scriven Hall (c.1524-1600, descended from Edward I), and had
10) Sir HENRY SLINGSBY of Scriven Hall, Knaresborough, Yorkshire, b. 1560; d. 17 Dec. 1634 Nun Monckton, Yorkshire, bur. 28 Dec. 1634 St John the Baptist Church, Knaresborough; m. 11 July 1580 St John the Baptist Church, Knaresborough, FRANCES VAVASOUR (b. c.1561; bur. 24 July 1611 St John the Baptist Church, Knaresborough), dau of William Vavasour of Weston Hall (1527-1587) & his 2nd wife Elizabeth Beckwith, and had
11) MARY SLINGSBY, b. 1582; bur. 20 Sep. 1662 St Mary Church, Alne, Yorkshire; m. 1602, Sir WALTER BETHELL of Ellerton Priory, Alne (bur. 2 Mar. 1623 St Mary Church, Alne), son of Nicholas Bethell of Maidenhead, and had
12) FRANCES BETHELL, b. c.1605; bur. 6 Jan. 1684 St Michael-le-Belfry Church, York, Yorkshire; m. 3 Apr. 1627 St Mary Church, Alne, Sir GEORGE MARWOOD, 1st Baronet of Little Busby (b. Busby Hall, Stokesley, Yorkshire, bap. 28 Apr. 1601 St Peter Church, Stokesley; d. 19 Feb. 1680 York, bur. St Michael-le-Belfry Church, York), son of Henry Marwood of Busby Hall (d. c.1639) & Anne Constable, and had
13) BARBARA MARWOOD, b. c.1630; bur. 15 Dec. 1703 St James Church, Westminster; m. 1st[*1] Sir THOMAS HEBBLETHWAITE of Norton, Yorkshire (bap. 19 June 1628 St Peter Church, Norton; bur. 21 June 1668 St Peter Church, Norton), son of James Hebblethwaite of Norton (1607-1653, descended from Edward III) & his 1st wife Anne Hungate (d. 1629), and had
14) BARBARA HEBBLETHWAITE, b. c.1655; d. 13 July 1735 Hoggeston, Buckinghamshire, bur. 18 July 1735 Holy Cross Church, Hoggeston; m. 29 May 1677 St James Paddington, London, Rev. THOMAS GATAKER, Rector of Hoggeston 1680-1701 (bap. 8 Oct. 1650 Holy Cross Church, Hoggeston; d. 10 Nov. 1701 Hoggeston, bur. there 13 Nov. 1701), son of Rev. Charles Gataker, Rector of Hoggeston 1647-80 (1613-1680) & Anne Jones, and had
15) FRANCES GATAKER, bap. 7 May 1678 Holy Cross Church, Hoggeston; bur. there 16 June 1715; m. 9 Apr. 1702 Holy Cross Church, Hoggeston, Rev. BENJAMIN REYNOLDS, Rector of Hoggeston 1702-58 (b. c.1677; d. 18 Dec. 1758 Hoggeston, bur. there 22 Dec. 1758), son of John Reynolds of Monks Risborough (d. 1711), and had
16) Rev. BENJAMIN REYNOLDS, Rector of Hoggeston 1758-81, b. 17 June 1704 Hoggeston, bap. there 21 June 1704; d. 1 Nov. 1781; m. by 1739, FRANCES WEBSTER, and had
17) FANNY REYNOLDS, b. 9 Feb. 1740 Mursley, Buckinghamshire, bap. 22 Feb. 1740 St Mary Church, Mursley; d. 21 Aug. 1815, bur. 25 Aug. 1815 St Edmund Church, Fenny Bentley, Derbyshire; m. 15 Oct. 1761 Holy Cross Church, Hoggeston, FRANCIS BERESFORD[*2] of Ashbourne, Derbyshire, attorney-at-law (bap. 4 Apr. 1737 St Oswald Church, Ashbourne; d. 18 Nov. 1801), son of John Beresford of Fenny Bentley (c.1688-1755, descended from Edward I) & Frances Fitzherbert (c.1693-1765, descended from Edward I), and had
18) ELIZABETH BERESFORD (1762-1833), wife of John Wright of Lenton Hall


[*1] Dame Barbara (Marwood) Hebblethwaite m. 2nd 1673, as his 2nd wife, Sir Francis Cobb of Ottringham (1604-1677, descended from Edward III). She m. 3rd 23 Sep. 1683 St Martin in the Fields, London, Capt. Robert Seton of Westminster, merchant. Her third marriage has been overlooked by Ruvigny and previous genealogists. Capt. Robert Seton was the son of Robert Seton of Hailes (d. 1655, descended from James I of Scotland) and Lady Anne Montgomerie (1632-1687, descended from James IV), later Countess of Findlater. A detailed website on the Seton family has further details.
http://www2.thesetonfamily.com:8080/history/Seton_Family_of_Barnes.htm

[*2] Genealogics has Francis Marcus Beresford as this gentleman’s full name. But his baptism entry gives him no such middle name, and nowhere else (his marriage entry, his daughter’s baptism entry, his death notice in the newspaper) have I seen him with the added name ‘Marcus’. He’s simply Francis Beresford.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00117015&tree=LEO

Hope to have more posted Monday.

Cheers, ----Brad

[Brad Verity]

Thanks, Will. I have no information on the first two wives of Sir Richard Pyne. I only know that Katherine Wandesford was his 3rd wife from a footnote in a book 'The Remembrances of Elizabeth Freke 1671-1714' (2001):
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Y0ZVWowEMOwC&pg=PA63&dq=nicholas+pyne+of+mogeely+county+cork&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiR6P_qkfHhAhW8FzQIHWTIAm8Q6AEISjAH#v=onepage&q=nicholas%20pyne%20of%20mogeely%20county%20cork&f=false

George Norton of Abbots Leigh and Ellen Owen are in my database, so I've added in their daughter Catherine, second wife of Sir Richard Pyne. Do you have any idea who his first wife was?

Another footnote in the same book states specifically that Henry Pyne was born at Waterpark in 1688, the son of Sir Richard by Katherine Wandesford. It cites the 1985 'The Pynes of Co. Cork' in The Irish Genealogist as its source, so apparently that is an article worth tracking down.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=Y0ZVWowEMOwC&pg=PA197&dq=Henry+Pyne+Waterpark+1688&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcvPSKk_HhAhVV7J4KHTLTAuYQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=Henry%20Pyne%20Waterpark%201688&f=false

Cheers, ---Brad

[wjhonson]

Yes I have temporarily allowed this claim to be true until I can find something more.

On the subject of the Norton's you might want to add how it is that the Freke's knew about the second wife.

George /Norton/ of Abbot's Leigh, Somerset; Knt

Will dated 28 Feb 1667/8, proved 12 Mar 1667/8
by his wife Ellen Owen
daughter of William /Owen/ of Condover, co Salop; Sheriff Shropshire 1623; esq; Knt -1640- and Ellen /Needham/
had three children known to me

*Ellen /Norton/ m William /Trenchard/ of Cutteridge; esq he d 22 Aug 1710 "aged 70"
*George /Norton/ , Knt "eldest son (so said in 1668)" m 1672 Frances /Freke/ ; W b 1644 Oxford she d 20 Feb 1731
*Catherine second wife of Richard Pyne

This Frances Freke was the sister to Elizabeth Freke

[gawin...@gmail.com]

I have the "Pynes of Co. Cork" article by H.F. Morris. According to Morris Sir Richard Pyne was the son of Nicholas Pyne who in 1634 married "Jane, daughter of Sir Robert Tynte, by his second wife, Elizabeth nee Boyle, widow the poet Edmund Spenser.

Sir Richard married (1) his first cousin once removed, Isabel, 3rd daughter of Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane. Morris cites "Funeral Certificates in Ireland," BL Addl. MS. 4820 as his source. By her Richard was the father of one daughter, Mabella, who evidently died young.


Sir Richard married (2) the sister of Sir George Norton of Abbotsbury, Somerset. Morris notes that Richard mentions Sir George in his will. I found Sir Richard's PCC will in Ancestry (PROB 11/513). He left £20 to his "Brother Sir George Norton of Abbotsly in the Count of Somersett Knight.”

Morris further states that this wife, who apparently had no children, died in 1677, citing "Funeral Entries, GO." He also notes that Taylor Pyne calls her Catherine (Taylor Pyne was the author of several works on the Pyne family).

A few Irish funeral certificates and entries are available on the National Library of Ireland's website but not the two cited by Morris:

https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/retrieve_text.php?text_contentid=75#Genealogical

Otherwise they can be viewed at a FHL site: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/478671

Morris states Sir Richard married (3) Catherine, third daughter of Sir Christopher Wandesforde, citing Marriage settlement, 21 Oct. 1686, and Pyne v. Montagu, PRO C/11/288/43. She was the mother of his son Henry. Following Sir Richard's death she married in 1709 Henry O'Hara (Chancery Proceedings, e.g. Pyne v. Pyne, PRO, C/11/9/12).


Gawin

[gawin...@gmail.com]

Findmypast includes transcribed entries from the Hoggeston parish registers available at the Centre for Buckinghamshire Studies. Revd Benjamin Reynolds was buried at Hoggeston 5 November 1781. For his M.I. see: https://books.google.com/books?id=ut89AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA384

I couldn't find a burial entry for his brother John but only one burial is recorded for 1788, likewise for 1789, so perhaps the transcriptions aren't complete.

No burial entry in Hoggeston for Benjamin's widow Frances either. Their daughter Fanny Beresford lived at Fenny Bentley, in Derbyshire (you've noted her burial there in 1815) and presumably Frances joined her there following Benjamin's death. She was likely the Frances Reynolds, aged 84, of the parish of Ashbourne, who was buried at Fenny Bentley on May 28, 1784. See digital images of the Fenny Bentley PR in Ancestry ("Derbyshire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812").

I searched unsuccessfully for a Benjamin Reynolds and wife Frances marriage record in Findmypast, Ancestry, and FamilySearch.

Gawin

[Brad Verity]

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 4:29:59 PM UTC-7, gawin...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have the "Pynes of Co. Cork" article by H.F. Morris. According to Morris Sir Richard Pyne was the son of Nicholas Pyne who in 1634 married "Jane, daughter of Sir Robert Tynte, by his second wife, Elizabeth nee Boyle, widow the poet Edmund Spenser.

Gawin,

Thank you for sharing this info from the Morris article - it's very helpful. The Edmund Spenser connection is interesting. I'm far from an expert in poetry, but even I've heard of Spenser!

> Sir Richard married (1) his first cousin once removed, Isabel, 3rd daughter of Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane. Morris cites "Funeral Certificates in Ireland," BL Addl. MS. 4820 as his source. By her Richard was the father of one daughter, Mabella, who evidently died young.

Great.

> Sir Richard married (2) the sister of Sir George Norton of Abbotsbury, Somerset. Morris notes that Richard mentions Sir George in his will. I found Sir Richard's PCC will in Ancestry (PROB 11/513). He left £20 to his "Brother Sir George Norton of Abbotsly in the Count of Somersett Knight.”

I only had two children in my database for Sir George Norton & Ellen Owen: a son Edward Norton (born 1654, died Dec. 1702), and a daughter Ellen (born c.1648; bur. 16 Aug. 1710 St Nicholas Church, North Bradley, Wiltshire). Thanks to you and Will Johnson, I've now added in Catherine, wife of Sir Richard Pyne, and Sir George Norton, husband of Frances Freke.

> Morris further states that this wife, who apparently had no children, died in 1677, citing "Funeral Entries, GO." He also notes that Taylor Pyne calls her Catherine (Taylor Pyne was the author of several works on the Pyne family).

Great to have a date of death for Catherine Pyne.

> A few Irish funeral certificates and entries are available on the National Library of Ireland's website but not the two cited by Morris:
> https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/retrieve_text.php?text_contentid=75#Genealogical
> Otherwise they can be viewed at a FHL site: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/478671

I will try and find them on the FHL site - thank you for the link.

> Morris states Sir Richard married (3) Catherine, third daughter of Sir Christopher Wandesforde, citing Marriage settlement, 21 Oct. 1686, and Pyne v. Montagu, PRO C/11/288/43. She was the mother of his son Henry. Following Sir Richard's death she married in 1709 Henry O'Hara (Chancery Proceedings, e.g. Pyne v. Pyne, PRO, C/11/9/12).

The marriage settlement date and Katherine's second husband are very helpful. The peerage works which I've seen made no mention of a re-marriage for her.

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 5:00:38 PM UTC-7, gawin...@gmail.com wrote:
> Findmypast includes transcribed entries from the Hoggeston parish registers available at the Centre for Buckinghamshire Studies. Revd Benjamin Reynolds was buried at Hoggeston 5 November 1781. For his M.I. see: https://books.google.com/books?id=ut89AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA384

Thanks for the link to the M.I. for Rev. Reynolds! On the same page is the M.I. for his mother Frances (Gataker) Reynolds, which provides her exact date of death, 13 June 1715.

I completely overlooked the burial entry for Benjamin Reynolds in FindmyPast. I searched 'Benjamin Reynolds', year of death '1781 +/- 1 year'. I see now I should have kept scrolling - on p. 16(!!) 'Revd Benjamin Reynolds 1781 Buckinghamshire Burial Index Hoggeston' is listed. So glad you gave the index a more thorough search.

> I couldn't find a burial entry for his brother John but only one burial is recorded for 1788, likewise for 1789, so perhaps the transcriptions aren't complete.

Either that, or John may have died earlier than 1789, when his will was proved. The second and final codicil to his will was dated 10 July 1782. I don't have time at the moment to search burial indexes for all the John Reynolds who died in 1782-89, but hope to have the time to do so soon.

The other Reynolds sibling I was unable to find a burial entry for was Barbara Anstee. Her brother John Reynolds in his July 1782 codicil enjoins his niece and executrix Fanny Beresford "give to my sister Anstee five guineas to buy her [unintelligible]." At that point, Barbara and John were the only two of the Reynolds siblings still living.

> No burial entry in Hoggeston for Benjamin's widow Frances either. Their daughter Fanny Beresford lived at Fenny Bentley, in Derbyshire (you've noted her burial there in 1815) and presumably Frances joined her there following Benjamin's death. She was likely the Frances Reynolds, aged 84, of the parish of Ashbourne, who was buried at Fenny Bentley on May 28, 1784. See digital images of the Fenny Bentley PR in Ancestry ("Derbyshire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812").

GREAT find!! Yes, I agree that is indeed the burial entry for Frances, widow of Rev. Benjamin Reynolds. It's nice to have her age at death. It also explains why there's no mention of her in Rev. Benjamin's M.I. at Hoggeston - she was buried elsewhere.

> I searched unsuccessfully for a Benjamin Reynolds and wife Frances marriage record in Findmypast, Ancestry, and FamilySearch.

If Frances's age at death was accurate, she was about four years older than her reverend husband. She remains a brick wall for the moment in the ancestry of the Duchess of York, but as more and more parish registers are acquired and indexed by online genealogy databases, we will hopefully get a breakthrough.

Thank you for your help with this, Gawin.

Cheers, -----Brad

[John Higgins]

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 4:29:59 PM UTC-7, gawin...@gmail.com wrote:

> I have the "Pynes of Co. Cork" article by H.F. Morris. According to Morris Sir Richard Pyne was the son of Nicholas Pyne who in 1634 married "Jane, daughter of Sir Robert Tynte, by his second wife, Elizabeth nee Boyle, widow the poet Edmund Spenser.
>
> Sir Richard married (1) his first cousin once removed, Isabel, 3rd daughter of Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane. Morris cites "Funeral Certificates in Ireland," BL Addl. MS. 4820 as his source. By her Richard was the father of one daughter, Mabella, who evidently died young.
>
>
> Sir Richard married (2) the sister of Sir George Norton of Abbotsbury, Somerset. Morris notes that Richard mentions Sir George in his will. I found Sir Richard's PCC will in Ancestry (PROB 11/513). He left £20 to his "Brother Sir George Norton of Abbotsly in the Count of Somersett Knight.”
>
> Morris further states that this wife, who apparently had no children, died in 1677, citing "Funeral Entries, GO." He also notes that Taylor Pyne calls her Catherine (Taylor Pyne was the author of several works on the Pyne family).
>
> A few Irish funeral certificates and entries are available on the National Library of Ireland's website but not the two cited by Morris:
>
> https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/retrieve_text.php?text_contentid=75#Genealogical
>
> Otherwise they can be viewed at a FHL site: https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/478671
>
> Morris states Sir Richard married (3) Catherine, third daughter of Sir Christopher Wandesforde, citing Marriage settlement, 21 Oct. 1686, and Pyne v. Montagu, PRO C/11/288/43. She was the mother of his son Henry. Following Sir Richard's death she married in 1709 Henry O'Hara (Chancery Proceedings, e.g. Pyne v. Pyne, PRO, C/11/9/12).
>
>
> Gawin

I think H. F. Morris may have slipped up in saying that Sir Richard Pyne "married (1) his first cousin once removed, Isabel, 3rd daughter of Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane". This Robert Tynte was the son of Sir Robert Tynte and thus the brother of Jane, said by Morris to be the mother of Sir Richard Pyne. In this case, Sir Richard Pyne and his 1st wife Isabel Tynte would be 1st cousins, not 1st cousins once removed.

As it happens, there is a pedigree of Tynte in the 1912 edition of Burke's LG of Ireland (the latest edition available online), and also (under the surname Tynte-Irwin) in its eventual successor Burke's Irish Family Records (1976). Both of these pedigrees say that Isabel Tynte was the 3rd daughter of Sir Henry Tynte of Ballycrenane, so of Robert Tynte and grandson of Sir Robert Tynte. This would make Isabel Tynte 1st cousin once removed of Sir Richard Pyne, as Morris has indicated. And this seems to work better chronologically.

However, the Tynte pedigrees in BLGI and BIFR do not mention a relationship between Sir Richard Pyne and his 1st wife, nor do they give a daughter Jane (married to Nicholas Pyne) to Sir Robert Tynte. I wonder what Morris' evidence is for Jane Tynte, said to be the mother of Sir Richard Pyne...

If the BLGI and BIFR pedigrees are correct, there are likely to be royal descents (and certainly Plantagenet descents) behind Isabel Tynte's mother, Mabella, daughter of Sir Percy Smyth of Ballyntray, because the mother of Sir Percy Smyth was a sister of the 1st Earl of Cork. But I need to dig further on this....

[gawin...@gmail.com]

For the Nicholas Pyne-Jane Tyte marriage Morris cites W.H. Welply, 'More Notes on Edmund Spenser,' Notes and Queries, vol. 165, p. 112.

[gawin...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 11:41:01 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:

>
> The marriage settlement date and Katherine's second husband are very helpful. The peerage works which I've seen made no mention of a re-marriage for her.
>

Here's another source for Katherine's second marriage:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10409314

Gawin

[gawin...@gmail.com]

Hmm...I don't have access to the Notes and Queries article but this Tynte genealogy also cites it but makes no mention of Jane Tynte wife of Nicholas Pyne.

https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsearch&id=I64681

[gawin...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 11:41:01 PM UTC-5, Brad Verity wrote:


>
> The other Reynolds sibling I was unable to find a burial entry for was Barbara Anstee. Her brother John Reynolds in his July 1782 codicil enjoins his niece and executrix Fanny Beresford "give to my sister Anstee five guineas to buy her [unintelligible]." At that point, Barbara and John were the only two of the Reynolds siblings still living.

Barbara Anstee and John Reynolds are buried in the churchyard of St. Peter and St. Paul, Tring, Hertfordshire.

See p. 10 of the churchyard inscriptions for John Reynolds and "Barbara Anstee, d. in 81st year of her life, daughter of Benjamin Reynolds, Aug. 6, 1792, wife of John Anstee." Barbara is also listed on p. 21.

https://docplayer.net/61535367-St-peter-and-st-paul.html

also (PDF version): http://www.tringteamparish.org.uk/st-peter-st-paul-tring/4588958959
{click on Churchyard Guide)


Gawin

[wjhonson]

Tangential, but here is some specific information on the poet Edmund Spencer and his two marriages and children

[wjhonson]

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 11:11:19 AM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote:
> Tangential, but here is some specific information on the poet Edmund Spencer and his two marriages and children

https://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=wjhonson&id=I248412

[gawin...@gmail.com]

W.H. Welpy, author of the Notes and Queries article, also published a two part article about Edmund Spenser's family in the Journal of the Cork Historical and Archaelogical Society.

See the last page of the second link for Robert Tynte's family. No mention is made of a daughter Jane wife of Nicholas Pyne. But this article was published before the article in Notes and Queries so perhaps the latter adds new information.

http://www.corkhist.ie/wp-content/uploads/jfiles/1922/b1922-004.pdf


http://www.corkhist.ie/wp-content/uploads/jfiles/1922/b1922-012.pdf

Gawin

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 10:48:42 AM UTC-7, gawin...@gmail.com wrote:
> Barbara Anstee and John Reynolds are buried in the churchyard of St. Peter and St. Paul, Tring, Hertfordshire.
> See p. 10 of the churchyard inscriptions for John Reynolds and "Barbara Anstee, d. in 81st year of her life, daughter of Benjamin Reynolds, Aug. 6, 1792, wife of John Anstee." Barbara is also listed on p. 21.
> https://docplayer.net/61535367-St-peter-and-st-paul.html
> also (PDF version): http://www.tringteamparish.org.uk/st-peter-st-paul-tring/4588958959
> {click on Churchyard Guide)

Another great find, Gawin. I now have doubts as to whether Barbara (Reynolds) Anstee had issue. Some unsourced public member trees on Ancestry give her four children. But Barbara, born 18 Dec. 1711, did not marry John Anstee until 17 October 1751, when she was almost age 40, which barely gives her enough time to have one child, let alone four. My guess is she was Anstee's second wife, for if she had children, it's a little odd that she would have lived with her bachelor brother John in their senior years. Plus, John makes provision for her in his will and codicils without mentioning any children of hers, though his niece Fanny Beresford and nephew Benjamin Mosse are prominently featured.

It's a shame the Tring churchyard headstone has worn away so much we no longer can make out John Reynolds's death date. But at least we know what parish register to track down for the burial entries.

Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 1:40:06 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> Sarah (Beresford) Wright’s maternal grandfather, Rev. Benjamin Reynolds,

Whoops - that line above should read Elizabeth (Beresford) Wright's, not 'Sarah' Beresford Wright's.

> Hope to have more posted Monday.

Wrapping up my additions to the ancestry of Henry FitzHerbert Wright, paternal great-grandfather of Sarah, Duchess of York, we have Selina (FitzHerbert), wife of Francis Wright of Osmaston Hall. Selina and her husband were second cousins—Selina’s mother Dame Agnes FitzHerbert was the daughter of Rev. William Beresford, Rector of Sonning, uncle of Elizabeth (Beresford) Wright, the mother of Selina’s husband Francis Wright. The ten lines from Edward I to Francis Beresford of Ashbourne, barrister, which were set out in a previous post in this thread, thus also apply to Francis’s younger brother Rev. William Beresford, Selina’s maternal grandfather.

Selina’s maternal grandmother, Martha Maria (Bland) Beresford, is another brick wall in the ancestry of the Duchess of York. She is in the Genealogics database, with no dates or parents.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00117020&tree=LEO

I can at least add her dates, and the names of her parents.
MARTHA MARIA BLAND, bap. 24 Nov. 1774 St Peter Church, Nottingham; bur. 12 July 1833 All Saints Church, West Farleigh, Kent; m. 18 Aug. 1778 St Mary Church, Arnold, Nottinghamshire, Rev. WILLIAM BERESFORD, Vicar of Sonning, Berkshire 1781-84 (bap. 2 Jan. 1740 St Oswald Church, Ashbourne, Derbyshire; d. 1 June 1784 Sonning, bur. 14 June 1784 St Andrew Church, Sonning), son of John Beresford of Fenny Bentley (c.1688-1755, descended from Edward I) & Frances Fitzherbert (c.1693-1765, descended from Edward I).

Per her baptism entry indexed in Ancestry, ‘Martha Maria Bland or Thornton’ was the daughter of ‘Joseph Bland’ and ‘Mary Thornton.’ The original parish register hasn’t been digitized, so I’ve not viewed the original baptism entry, but if she does indeed appear in it under the surname ‘Bland or Thornton’, it stands to reason that she was illegitimate. [It should be noted that in FindMyPast, the Nottinghamshire Baptisms Index 1538-1917 has her indexed simply as ‘Martha Bland’ daughter of ‘Joseph Bland’ and ‘Mary.’ But the England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975 index has ‘Martha Maria Bland Or Thornton’ with her parents as ‘Joseph Bland’ and ‘Mary Thornton.’] If Martha Maria was illegitimate, it would explain why no marriage entry for Joseph Bland to Mary Thornton can be found, even though the Nottingham parish registers seem to be covered thoroughly online for this period. I’m unable to further identify either of Martha Maria’s parents, but perhaps others will have better success.

So much for Selina (FitzHerbert) Wright’s maternal ancestry. In 2008, Will Johnson made some posts regarding ancestors in Selina’s paternal line, specifically on Littleton Poyntz Meynell of Bradley Hall:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/lWSd4Lt4oGI/UEzGUB8_U6MJ

Through this ancestor, Selina Wright has a descent from Henry IV, and another from Edward III. They are as follows.

Henry IV had a 4th son
A1) Humphrey of Lancaster, 1st Duke of Gloucester (1390-1447), who had
A2) Antigone of Lancaster, illegit. m. 1) Henry Gray, 2nd Count of Tancarville (1420-1450, descended from Edward I), and had
A3) Elizabeth Gray (c.1439-aft.1495) m. Sir Roger Kynaston of Hordley Hall (c.1430-1495), and had
A4) Anne Kynaston m. Roger Thornes of Shelvock (by 1469-1531, descended from Edward I), and had
A5) John Thornes of Shelvock m. Elizabeth Astley, and had
A6) Richard Thornes of Condover m. Margaret Cla, and had
A7) Alice Thornes (c.1530-1597) m. Rev. John Littleton of Spetchley (d. 1560), and had
A8) Thomas Littleton of Stoke St Milborough (c.1552-1622) m. Frances Lutley (see B12 below), and had
A9) Sir Adam Littleton, 1st Baronet of Stoke St Milborough (c.1585-1647) m. Audrey Poyntz (c.1597-1648), and had
A10) Edward Littleton of Barbados, planter (1625-1702) m. Dorothy Booth[*], and had
A11) Elizabeth Littleton (c.1671-1726) m. Godfrey Meynell of Bradley Hall (d. 1708), and had
A12) Littleton Poyntz Meynell of Bradley Hall (1699-1751) m. 1) Judith Alleyne (1703-1740), and had
A13) Mary Meynell (1721-1753) m. William FitzHerbert of Tissington Hall (1712-1772), and had
A14) Sir William FitzHerbert, 1st Baronet of Tissington Hall (1748-1791) m. Sarah Perrin (1745-1795), and had
A15) Sir Henry FitzHerbert, 3rd Baronet of Tissington Hall (1783-1858) m. Agnes Beresford (1783-1863, descended from Edward I), and had
A16) Selina FitzHerbert (1806-1888), wife of Francis Wright of Osmaston Hall

[*] Dorothy (Booth) Littleton was the daughter of John Booth of Glossop (d. 1636) & Rosamund Frank (d. 1640). Edward Littleton was Dorothy’s second husband. She m. 1st Edward Harrison of Barbados (will dated 17 Jan. 1670, proved 15 Feb. 1670), and by him had a dau, Rosamond Harrison (c.1667-1718) m. 1685, Sir William Booth (1657-1703). See Rev. John William Clay’s pedigrees of Booth of Cridling Park & Booth of Pontefract, and Edward Harrison’s will.
https://archive.org/stream/genealogist2719selb#page/n91/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/genealogist2719selb#page/n97/mode/2up
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~harrisonrep/harrisonwills/barbadoswills.htm

Edward III had a 2nd surviving son

B1) Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (1338-1368), who had
B2) Philippa Plantagenet, 5th Countess of Ulster (1355-1377), who had
B3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry ‘Hotspur’ Percy (1364-1403), and had
B4) Lady Elizabeth Percy (c.1395-1436) m. 1) John, 7th Lord Clifford (1388-1422, descended from Edward I), and had
B5) Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford (1414-1455) m. Joan Dacre (c.1417-c.1452, descended from Edward I), and had
B6) John, 9th Lord Clifford (1435-1461) m. Margaret Bromflete (c.1436-1493), and had

B7) Maud Clifford (b. c.1436) m. 2) Sir Edmund Sutton, Heir of Dudley Castle (c.1430-1482), and had
B8) Dorothy Dudley (c.1465-1517) m. Richard Wrottesley of Wrottesley Hall (1457-1521), and had
B9) Jane Wrottesley m. Richard Cressett of Upton Cressett Hall (c.1480-aft.1546, descended from Edward I), and had
B10) Robert Cressett of Upton Cressett Hall (c.1508-1561) m. Katherine Charlton, and had
B11) Elizabeth Cressett m. Adam Lutley of Bromcroft (d. 1590), and had
B12) Frances Lutley (1562-1648) m. Thomas Littleton of Stoke St Milborough (see A8 above)

More to follow.

Cheers, ----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 3:49:09 AM UTC-7, gawin...@gmail.com wrote:

> For the Nicholas Pyne-Jane Tyte marriage Morris cites W.H. Welply, 'More Notes on Edmund Spenser,' Notes and Queries, vol. 165, p. 112.

Gawin,

I downloaded the Welpy article from Notes & Queries. It's in two parts (two pdf files).

I don't seem to be able to attach them to you in this format.

Send me an email to royald...@hotmail.com and I'll reply back to you with the attachments.

Thank you for all your great research and help.

Cheers, -----Brad

[John Higgins]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 8:00:48 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 1:13:31 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> > More to follow.
>
> Back in 2008, Will Johnson and John Higgins posted to the newsgroup about the Grantham ancestry of Sarah, Duchess of York:
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/1hmbO2nvCCA/ySb6962A2nYJ
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/1hmbO2nvCCA/KSTQrVYT7M0J
>
> I don’t know why Leo never entered the Grantham ancestry into his database (perhaps because it was only linked, and not laid out in full, by Will and John), though Will did lay out some of it in a subsequent post.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/G9OALfocbGQ/jQmjaYal0ZMJ
>
> At any rate, Genealogics has Thomas Grantham (an ancestor of Hon. Margaret (Brand) Ferguson, paternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York), with no parentage:
> http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00655078&tree=LEO
>
> THOMAS GRANTHAM of Goltho Hall, Lincolnshire, b. c.1633 (his parents were married 18 Oct. 1632 St Mary Church, Swine, Yorkshire); d. 1 Apr. 1668 Fixby Hall, Yorkshire, bur. St Mary Church, Elland, Yorkshire; m. 12 Jan. 1658 St Peter Church, Woolley, Yorkshire, FRANCES WENTWORTH (bap. 1 Dec. 1631 St Peter Church, Woolley; d. 12 Mar. 1693, bur. 16 Mar. 1693 St Mary Church, Elland), dau. of Sir George Wentworth of Woolley Hall (1599-1660, descended from Edward III) & his 2nd wife Everild Maltby (1605-1639, mtDNA descendant of Anne of Exeter, sister of Richard III).
>
> Thomas Grantham was the son of Thomas Grantham of Goltho Hall (1612-1655) and Dorothy Alford (d. 1673). Much of his ancestry can be worked out in the Grantham of St. Katharine’s, Lincoln, and Goltho pedigree in Maddison’s Lincolnshire Pedigrees Vol. 2, which John Higgins had linked back in 2008:
> https://archive.org/details/lincolnshirepedi02madd/page/92
>
> Thomas Grantham has five lines of descent from Edward I. Two of them are as follows.
>
> Edward I had a son A1 and a dau B1 (see below)
> A1) Thomas of Brotherton, 1st Earl of Norfolk, who had
> A2) Margaret of Brotherton, 1st Duchess of Norfolk, who had
> A3) Elizabeth de Segrave (1338-1366) m. John, 4th Lord Mowbray (1340-1368), and had
> A4) Joan Mowbray (c.1363-1410) m. 1) Sir Thomas Gray of Heaton Castle (1359-1400), and had
> A5) Maud Gray (c.1386-aft.1451) m. Sir Robert Ogle of Ogle Castle (c.1370-1436), and had
> A6) Elizabeth Ogle (b. c.1404) m. 1) Sir William Heron of Ford Castle (1400-1425), and had
> A7) Elizabeth Heron (1424-aft.1498) m. Sir John Heron of Ford Castle (c.1414-1461), and had
> A8) Elizabeth Heron (c.1450-by 1493) m. Sir Robert Tailboys of South Kyme (c.1445-1495, descended from Edward I), and had
> A9) Maud Tailboys m. Sir Robert Tyrwhitt of Kettleby Hall (c.1482-1548), and had
> A10) Anne Tyrwhitt m. William Hansard of South Kelsey (1501-1522), and had
> A11) Elizabeth Hansard (1522-1558) m. Sir Francis Ayscough of Stallingborough Hall (see B11 below), and had
> A12) Elizabeth Ayscough (c.1550-1583) m. 1) Vincent Grantham of Goltho Hall (d. 1581), and had
> A13) Sir Thomas Grantham of Goltho Hall (1573-1630) m. 1) Frances Puckering (d. 1619), and had
> A14) Thomas Grantham of Goltho Hall (1612-1655) m. Dorothy Alford (d. 1673), and had
> A15) Thomas Grantham of Goltho Hall (c.1633-1668)

>
> B1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester, who had
> B2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh, 2nd Lord Despenser (c.1289-1326), and had

> B3) Sir Edward Despenser of Essendine (c.1311-1342) m. Anne Ferrers (c.1315-1367), and had
> B4) Edward, 4th Lord Despenser (1336-1375) m. Elizabeth Burghersh (1342-1409), and had
> B5) Anne Despenser (c.1363-1426) m. 1) Sir Hugh Hastings of Elsing (by 1355-1386), and had
> B6) Sir Edward Hastings of Elsing (1382-1438) m. 1) Muriel Dinham (c.1390-by 1420, descended from Edward I), and had
> B7) John Hastings of Gressenhall (1412-1477) m. Anne Morley (c.1420-1471, descended from Edward I), and had
> B8) Elizabeth Hastings m. Sir Robert Hildyard of Winestead Hall (d. 1501), and had
> B9) Margery Hildyard (b. c.1466) m. Sir William Ayscough of Stallingborough Hall (c.1465-1510), and had
> B10) Sir William Ayscough of Stallingborough Hall (by 1486-1540) m. 1) Elizabeth Wrottesley (d. 1521), and had
> B11) Sir Francis Ayscough of Stallingborough Hall (by 1518-1564) m. 1) Elizabeth Hansard (see A11 above)

>
> The next post will have some Edward III descents – hopefully I’ll get it up tomorrow.
>

> Cheers, ------Brad

In the post above, Brad Verity outlined 5 Edward I descents for Thomas Granthma of Goltho Hall (d. 1668), ancestor of Sarah Ferguson. Here is one additional Edward I descent for him:

1. Edward I, King of England; m. Eleanor of Castile
2. Elizabeth of England; m. Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford and Essex
3. William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton; m. Elizabeth Baddlesmere
4. Elizabeth de Bohun; m. Richard Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel
5. Elizabeth Fitzalan; m. Sir Robert Goushill
6. Joan Goushill; m. Sir Thomas Stanley, 1st Baron Stanley
7. Catherine Stanley; m. Sir John Savage of Clifton
8. Elizabeth Savage; m. Sir John Leeke of Sutton-en-le-Dale
9. Katherine Leeke; m. Sir Godfrey Foljambe of Walton
10. Benedicta [or Jane] Foljambe; m. Sir John Dunham of Kirklington
11. Mary Dunham; m. Thomas Grantham of St. Katherine's, Lincoln
12. Vincent Grantham of Goltho and St. Katherine's; m. Elizabeth Ayscough [A12 in the earlier post]

The details for this line are all in the Genealogics database.

[John Higgins]

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 12:55:22 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 8:00:48 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:

> There is some confusion regarding the identity of the wife of Sir Richard Pyne, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, an ancestor of Hon. Margaret (Brand) Ferguson, paternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York.

> More to follow.
>
> Cheers, ------Brad

Sarah Ferguson's ancestor Sir Richard Pyne, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, has 3 descents from Edward I. One is listed below, together with a reference to the other two:

1. Edward I, King of England; m. Eleanor of Castile
2. Elizabeth of England; m. Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford and Essex

3. Eleanor de Bohun (d. 7.X.1363); m. (1) 1327 James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormonde (d. 6.I.1336/7)
4. Pernel Butler (living 28.V.1365, said to have d. 1368); m. before 8.IX.1352 (his 1st) Gilbert Talbot, 3rd Lord Talbot (b. ca. 1332, d. 24.IV.1387)
5. Richard Talbot, 4th Lord Talbot (b. ca. 1361, d. 8 or 9.IX.1396); m. before 23.VIII.1383 (her 1st) Ankaret le Strange, suo jure Baroness Strange of Blackmere
6. Mary Talbot (d. 13.IV.1434); m. (1) before 23.X.1398 Sir Thomas Greene [II] of Greene's Norton (b. ca. 1368/9, d. 14.XII.1417)
7. Sir Thomas Greene [III] of Greene's Norton (b. 10.II.1399/1400, d. 18.I.1461/2); m. (1) by 16.XII.1421 Philippa Ferrers of Chartley [descended twice from Edward I]
8. Elizabeth Greene; m. William Ralegh of Farnborough, Warwickshire (d. 15.X.1460)
9. Sir Edward Ralegh (will dated 20.VI.1509, d. by 6.VI.1513); m. Margaret Verney
10. Edward Ralegh (d. [vp], will dated 25.VIII.1508, proved 1508); m. between 1496 and 1505 Anne Chamberlain
11. Bridget Raleigh (d. 6.I.1558); m. (his 1st of 3) Sir John Cope of Canons Ashby (d. 22.I.1557/8)
12. Joan Cope; m. Stephen Boyle of Kentish Town, Middlesex, and later of Bradden, Northamptonshire (bur. 23.V.1582)
13. Elizabeth Boyle; m. (3) 3.III.1612 (his 2nd) Sir Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane (bap. 31.III.1571, will dated 10.V.1643)
14. Jane Tynte; m. 1634 Maj. Nicholas Pyne of Mogeely, Co. Cork (d. 1670)
15. Sir Richard Pyne of Waterpark, Co. Cork, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland (b. ca. 1644 [aged 18 in 1662], bur 22.XII.1709); m. [3 times]

Details on generations 1 through 11 can be found in the Genealogics database. Information on the remaining generations can be found in the sources previously cited in this thread, especially the Welply notes in N&Q and the Irish Genealogist article on the Pynes of Cork.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, Elizabeth Boyle (#13 above) married (1) the poet Edmund Spenser, and (2) Roger Seckerston. Her 3rd husband, Sir Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane, is ancestral to Sarah Ferguson by a child from each of his two marriages.

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 3:20:12 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> As all of these Fitzgeralds quickly become very confusing, I’ll summarize. Honora Fitzgerald (d. c.1628, when her will was dated), of the Fitzgeralds of Carrigaline Castle, married 1st John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Ballymartyr Castle, seneschal of Imokilly (who d. a rebel Jan. 1589 Dublin Castle – he has an entry in ODNB), son of Edmund FitzMaurice Fitzgerald of Ballymartyr Castle, seneschal of Imokilly & Shylie O’Carroll (descended from Edward I), and had issue, two sons (Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Ballymartyr Castle, Richard FitzJohn Fitzgerald) and two daus (Katherine, Eleanor); Honora m. 2nd Edmund FitzJohn Fitzgerald of Cloyne Castle (b. c.1569; d. 10 Mar. 1612, bur. Cloyne Cathedral), son of Sir John FitzEdmund Fitzgerald of Cloyne Castle & Honor O’Brien, and had further issue, one son (Maurice Fitzgerald of Castle Ishen) and three daus (Ellen, wife of 5th Baron Inchiquin; Mary, wife of Owen O’Sullivan More; and Honora, wife of 18th Lord of Kerry & Lixnaw).

Many thanks to Leslie Maher, who brought to my attention a footnote in 'The description of Ireland, and the state thereof as it is at this present in anno 1598' which refers to the mother Honora Fitzgerald (d. c.1628): "the daughter of James FitzMorris mar. John FitzGerald, Seneschal of Imokilly, and 2ly Sir Edmond, son and heir of J. Fitz Gerald of Cloyne & Ballymaloe" (p. 179 n. kk)
https://archive.org/stream/descriptionofire00hogauoft#page/178/mode/2up

The footnote continues, on the following page (180), that "The 8th and last Seneschal of Imokilly was John FitzEdmund FitzGerald; he married the daughter of James FitzMaurice of Desmond, 'The Arch Traytor.' His son Edmund was twelve years old in 1598."
https://archive.org/stream/descriptionofire00hogauoft#page/180/mode/2up

So Honora's eldest son Edmund FitzJohn was born about 1586. Her first husband was killed a traitor in January 1589, which means her second son Richard FitzJohn was born 1587-89. She also had two daughters with her first husband, at least one of whom must have been born before the sons. So a birthdate estimate for Honora of about 1565 would work. She was likely a bit older than her second husband Edmund FitzJohn FitzGerald of Cloyne, whose M.I. in Cloyne Cathedral says he was age 43 at his death on 10 March 1612/3, so born about 1569.

It's helpful to further establish Honora's chronology.

On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 4:44:35 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> Sarah Ferguson's ancestor Sir Richard Pyne, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, has 3 descents from Edward I. One is listed below, together with a reference to the other two:

Thank you for your great research on this, John. I've entered the line into my database. Just a couple quick questions.

> 10. Edward Ralegh (d. [vp], will dated 25.VIII.1508, proved 1508); m. between 1496 and 1505 Anne Chamberlain
> 11. Bridget Raleigh (d. 6.I.1558); m. (his 1st of 3) Sir John Cope of Canons Ashby (d. 22.I.1557/8)

Your death date of 6 Jan. 1558 for Bridget (Raleigh) Cope comes from Genealogics.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00284810&tree=LEO

But according to the HOP entry for her husband Sir John Cope, he was married to his third wife Margaret (Tame) Stafford "by June 1542."
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/cope-john-1513-58

So is the 1558 death date a typo (perhaps for '1538'?), or is the order of Sir John's three wives incorrect?

> 12. Joan Cope; m. Stephen Boyle of Kentish Town, Middlesex, and later of Bradden, Northamptonshire (bur. 23.V.1582)

Did you happen to uncover the names of Stephen Boyle's parents?

> 13. Elizabeth Boyle; m. (3) 3.III.1612 (his 2nd) Sir Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane (bap. 31.III.1571, will dated 10.V.1643)
> 14. Jane Tynte; m. 1634 Maj. Nicholas Pyne of Mogeely, Co. Cork (d. 1670)
> 15. Sir Richard Pyne of Waterpark, Co. Cork, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland (b. ca. 1644 [aged 18 in 1662], bur 22.XII.1709); m. [3 times]

> As mentioned earlier in this thread, Elizabeth Boyle (#13 above) married (1) the poet Edmund Spenser, and (2) Roger Seckerston. Her 3rd husband, Sir Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane, is ancestral to Sarah Ferguson by a child from each of his two marriages.

It's cool to be able to add poet Edmund Spenser, as the spouse and father of Edward I descendants, into my database. Thanks again!

On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 4:13:45 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> In the post above, Brad Verity outlined 5 Edward I descents for Thomas Granthma of Goltho Hall (d. 1668), ancestor of Sarah Ferguson. Here is one additional Edward I descent for him:
> 1. Edward I, King of England; m. Eleanor of Castile
> 2. Elizabeth of England; m. Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford and Essex
> 3. William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton; m. Elizabeth Baddlesmere
> 4. Elizabeth de Bohun; m. Richard Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel
> 5. Elizabeth Fitzalan; m. Sir Robert Goushill
> 6. Joan Goushill; m. Sir Thomas Stanley, 1st Baron Stanley
> 7. Catherine Stanley; m. Sir John Savage of Clifton
> 8. Elizabeth Savage; m. Sir John Leeke of Sutton-en-le-Dale
> 9. Katherine Leeke; m. Sir Godfrey Foljambe of Walton
> 10. Benedicta [or Jane] Foljambe; m. Sir John Dunham of Kirklington
> 11. Mary Dunham; m. Thomas Grantham of St. Katherine's, Lincoln
> 12. Vincent Grantham of Goltho and St. Katherine's; m. Elizabeth Ayscough [A12 in the earlier post]
> The details for this line are all in the Genealogics database.

Thank you for this line, John. As you noted, I didn't have it - I had Generations 1 thru 9, and 11-12. When entering the missing Generation 10 into my database this morning, I came across some info which may be useful, and can be added to the account in Genealogics.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00692743&tree=LEO

1) The first name of Sir Godfrey and Dame Katherine (Leke) Foljambe's daughter was definitely 'Benedicta' (or the more anglicized 'Benett'), not 'Jane'. She was born at the family seat Walton Hall, Chesterfield, Derbyshire, on the feast of the translation of St Edward [13 October] 1499, and named for her paternal grandmother Benedicta (Vernon) Foljambe, who stood as godmother, alongside her maternal aunt Muriel (Leke) Waterton.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=ceFgAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA70&dq=sir+john+dunham+of+kirklington&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhzoTP34fiAhWKIDQIHcthC2MQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=sir%20john%20dunham%20of%20kirklington&f=false

2) She was contracted to marry Sir John Dunham on 4 August 13 Henry VIII [1521].
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/eea5dd26-ffef-4570-8fbf-9b6f54c4e1c9

3) Her second husband was Sir William Newenham of Everdon, Northamptonshire (he has an entry in HOP).
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7485957
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/newenham-william-1502-46

4) Per Robert Thoroton, in his 'History of Nottinghamshire' (1798), Benett Foljambe's first husband Sir John Dunham was returned as "about 28 years of age" at the IPM of his mother, Elizabeth (Bowett) (Chaworth) Dunham, taken in "18 H. 7" [1502/03], so born about 1474. "He died 9 Sept. 30 H. 8 [1538] and by his first wife Jane, daughter of Thomas Thurland of Gameleston, had a son, who died young, and four daughters who became his heirs: his second wife was Bennett, the daughter of Sir Godfr. Folejambe."
https://books.google.ca/books?id=l-icpHJW2OQC&pg=PA98&dq=sir+john+dunham+of+kirklington&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijpNew44fiAhUtHjQIHRnGA18Q6AEIRjAG#v=onepage&q=sir%20john%20dunham%20of%20kirklington&f=false

See also Thoroton's pedigree of Dunham on the previous page:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=l-icpHJW2OQC&pg=PA98&dq=sir+john+dunham+of+kirklington&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijpNew44fiAhUtHjQIHRnGA18Q6AEIRjAG#v=onepage&q=sir%20john%20dunham%20of%20kirklington&f=false

5) Thoroton was correct on the birthdate of Sir John Dunham. Per his mother's Yorkshire IPM, taken 4 November 1502, "John Dunham, knight, is her son and heir, aged 28 and more."
http://www.archive.org/stream/calendarofinquis02grea#page/368/mode/2up

6) Thoroton was incorrect on the death date of Sir John Dunham. Per the HOP entry for Sir William Newenham, Dunham died in 1535, not 1538. I'm always pleased to be able to cite the thorough research of my friend Paul Reed. In a post to this newsgroup back in 1998, refers to the IPM for Sir John Dunham, taken in 26 Henry VIII (1535).
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/9njNYuYgXoU/OhPxER0G8x8J

7) Kate Emerson, in her entry for Benett Foljambe on the 'A Who's Who of Tudor Women' website, states that Benett was married to second husband Sir William Newenham by 20 November 1536, when her marriage jointure was assigned (but no source cited, or link provided for that specific date). So Sir John Dunham of Kirklington probably died 9 September 1535. Kate Emerson follows Thoroton, and states that Benett did not have any children with her first husband Sir John Dunham.
http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=675

8) But Thoroton was also incorrect in making Sir John's five children by his first wife Jane Thurland. They most definitely were by his second wife, Benett Foljambe, as proven by Sir John himself, in the pedigree he supplied herald Thomas Tonge in 1530: "And the said Sir John maried to his second wife Bennet, doughter to Sir Godfrey Folgeam of Derbyshire: and by her had issue, John, which dyed yonge; and Kateryn; Elizabeth; Margaret; Anne; and Mary."
https://archive.org/details/heraldicvisitati00tongrich/page/n21

9) Paul Reed states the ages of Sir John Dunham's daughters from his IPM were, "his daughter Katherine was aged 10 (b. 1525), Ann was aged 6 (b. 1529), Mary was aged 3 (b. 1532), and Francis was aged 7 [b. 1528]." This can't be correct, as we know Mary was born by 1530, when Thomas Tonge made his visitation pedigree, and Frances was the youngest daughter, not yet born at the visitation. In a subsequent post, Paul quotes 'Abstracts of the Inquisitions Post Mortem relating to Nottinghamshire, vol. I. Henry VII and Henry VIII 1485 to 1546' [1905 (Thoroton Society, Record Series 3), p. 247], the inquisition post mortem of Edmond Hunt, taken 23 March 1538/9, found that the manor of Normanton "was held of Katherine, Anne, Maria and Francis [sic] Dunham, daughters and heirs of Sir John Dunham, knight, deceased, as of his manor of Kyrtlyngton, which now is in the King's hand by reason of the minority of the daughters." This matches to the birth order of the daughters stated by Tonge in 1530. So my guess is that somehow the ages of the daughters got confused in their father's 1535 IPM (the original should be checked - it may be the abstract that erred), and they in actuality were: Katherine aged 10 (b. 1525), Anne aged 7 (b. 1528), Mary aged 6 (b. 1529), and Frances aged 3 (b. 1532).
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/9njNYuYgXoU/P1CO8-rVNW8J

10) The HOP entry for Sir William Newenham states that he probably had two daughters with his second wife, Dame Benett (Foljambe) Dunham. Another IPM referred to by Robert Thoroton seems to identify those daughters. "William Newenham, gent. dyed 2 July, 3 Eliz. [1561] x. leaving Isabell and Benedict his sisters and heirs. In 4 Eliz. [1561/2] Benedict was seventeen years old [so born c.1544], and married to Lancelot Mounteforth; Isabell nineteen [so born c.1542], and afterwards married to Edward Samon."
https://books.google.ca/books?id=BHxbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA46&dq=Lancelot+Mounteforth&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuuceByYfiAhX_IDQIHahJByEQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=Lancelot%20Mounteforth&f=false

11) Finally, I couldn't find a death or burial date for Dame Benett (Foljambe) (Dunham) Newenham, but she certainly survived her second husband, and was living as late as 1556. In the British Chancery Records, 1386-1558 database, accessed thru Ancestry.com, are entries for "Benett Newenham", Warwick, 1556-1558 (Vol. 10, Page 213, Bundle 1457), and "Benedict Newenham", Nottingham, 1556-1558 (Vol. 10, Page 212, Bundle 1456), which are no doubt referring to her.

Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad

[John Higgins]

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 3:12:10 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 3:20:12 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:

> On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 4:44:35 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> > Sarah Ferguson's ancestor Sir Richard Pyne, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland, has 3 descents from Edward I. One is listed below, together with a reference to the other two:
>
> Thank you for your great research on this, John. I've entered the line into my database. Just a couple quick questions.
>
> > 10. Edward Ralegh (d. [vp], will dated 25.VIII.1508, proved 1508); m. between 1496 and 1505 Anne Chamberlain
> > 11. Bridget Raleigh (d. 6.I.1558); m. (his 1st of 3) Sir John Cope of Canons Ashby (d. 22.I.1557/8)
>
> Your death date of 6 Jan. 1558 for Bridget (Raleigh) Cope comes from Genealogics.
> http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00284810&tree=LEO
>
> But according to the HOP entry for her husband Sir John Cope, he was married to his third wife Margaret (Tame) Stafford "by June 1542."
> http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/cope-john-1513-58
>
> So is the 1558 death date a typo (perhaps for '1538'?), or is the order of Sir John's three wives incorrect?

Upon checking, the death date for Bridget Raleigh in Genealogics is certainly wrong. The source I have for Sir John Cope agrees with HOP as to the order of his 3 marriages, making Bridget first - and certainly not surviving him. The first of the Genealogics sources for Bridget is AR7, which does NOT show a death date for Bridget. So Leo's source must have been the other listed source: an ancestor list for David Carradine (!) provided by José Verheecke in 2012, which must have a wrong date. (Or Leo misread something...) I'll send a correction to Ian Fettes.

>
> > 12. Joan Cope; m. Stephen Boyle of Kentish Town, Middlesex, and later of Bradden, Northamptonshire (bur. 23.V.1582)
>
> Did you happen to uncover the names of Stephen Boyle's parents?

No luck so far on Stephen Boyle's parents. Biographers of the poet Edmund Spenser seem to concur that his wife Elizabeth Boyle was a relative (in some unspecified degree) of Richard Boyle, 1st Earl of Cork. But I've seen no sources cited that would support this conclusion, or identify any such relationship. So, still a mystery...

>
> > 13. Elizabeth Boyle; m. (3) 3.III.1612 (his 2nd) Sir Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane (bap. 31.III.1571, will dated 10.V.1643)
> > 14. Jane Tynte; m. 1634 Maj. Nicholas Pyne of Mogeely, Co. Cork (d. 1670)
> > 15. Sir Richard Pyne of Waterpark, Co. Cork, Lord Chief Justice of Ireland (b. ca. 1644 [aged 18 in 1662], bur 22.XII.1709); m. [3 times]
>
> > As mentioned earlier in this thread, Elizabeth Boyle (#13 above) married (1) the poet Edmund Spenser, and (2) Roger Seckerston. Her 3rd husband, Sir Robert Tynte of Ballycrenane, is ancestral to Sarah Ferguson by a child from each of his two marriages.
>
> It's cool to be able to add poet Edmund Spenser, as the spouse and father of Edward I descendants, into my database. Thanks again!
>

According to one Spenser bio (citing the Welply notes we've separately discussed), Spenser's descendants survive through female descendants in several Irish families today. But I'll leave that for someone else to trace!

> Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad

I'll respond separately regarding Benedicta Foljambe. And I think I have some information on the Fitzgeralds of Imokilly....

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 3:32:33 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> More to follow.

Having added all I could to the Edward I lines behind Henry FitzHerbert Wright, maternal great-grandfather of Sarah, Duchess of York, it’s time to turn to his Canadian-born wife Muriel (Fletcher) Wright.

Her father, Col. Henry Fletcher, whom Muriel would barely have known as he died when she was six, has an entry in the ‘Dictionary of Canadian Biography.’ He first travelled to Canada with his regiment in 1861, and was present, as an observer, at the American Civil War battles of Williamsburg, Fair Oaks, and the Seven Days. His reports back to his commanding officer, led to Fletcher eventually writing and publishing a three-volume ‘History of the American War.’
http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/fletcher_henry_charles_10E.html

The Fletchers of Kenward House (in the parish of Yalding, Kent) were a junior branch of the Fletchers of Clea Hall in Cumberland, which in turn were descended from a younger brother of the first Fletcher baronet of Hutton le Forest. The Kenward House Fletchers were unable to maintain their landed gentry status into the twentieth century. Kenward House was sold in 1901, and their final appearance in ‘Burke’s Landed Gentry’ was in the 1914 edition, which isn’t online. The 1898 edition is available however, though its account of the family wasn’t up-to-date: Muriel’s 1894 marriage to Henry FitzHerbert Wright isn’t mentioned.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=YUtNAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA525&lpg=PA525&dq=fletcher+of+kenward&source=bl&ots=cT-b5CLz7c&sig=ACfU3U3wriRFFJRqYY7jFGj_HPG2KUYiUQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjx-IiP9IniAhUXFjQIHTOHC9AQ6AEwBHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=fletcher%20of%20kenward&f=false

The Genealogics database, thanks to Debrett’s Book of the Royal Engagement (1986), traces Muriel’s paternal line back several generations, though not quite as far back as Sir Richard Fletcher of Hutton le Forest’s younger brother (use the Aubrey-Fletcher article in ‘Burke’s Peerage’ to make that connection).
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005890&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=6

In my database, I only take it as far back as Muriel’s paternal grandfather Maj-Gen. Edward Fletcher because, somewhat surprisingly for a gentry family that can be traced back to the 16th-century, he seems to have been the first to marry into the Edward I bloodline. It is through Edward’s first wife, Hon. Ellen Mary (Shore) Fletcher, a daughter of the 1st Baron Teignmouth, that Muriel’s father derives his Edward I descents. Edward Fletcher was born in Calcutta, the son of a civil servant with the East India Company, so it’s not surprising that he became part of the orbit of Lord Teignmouth, who began his own remarkable career (see his entry in ODNB) as a writer for the East India Company, and was given the hand of Teignmouth’s daughter. Yet it’s not through Teignmouth himself that we can trace back to Edward I, but rather his wife. With Charlotte (Cornish), Lady Teignmouth, the ancestry of Sarah, Duchess of York, overlaps with that of her son-in-law Jack Brooksbank. For Lady Teignmouth was the only sister of Dr. Philip Cornish of Exeter, an ancestor of Jack’s mother Nicola (Newton) Brooksbank. These lines were presented and discussed by John Higgins, Gawin Scott, and myself some months back in the Jack Brooksbank thread – the key posts being:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/2Bqrww_7DY8/RNXSxPvUAQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/2Bqrww_7DY8/zmq3sMg7AQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/2Bqrww_7DY8/vU56JN16AQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/2Bqrww_7DY8/fOdvpv59AQAJ

Capt. Edward Fletcher’s mother-in-law Lady Teignmouth died in July 1834 at his residence in Regents Park. The following month he was made an aide-de-camp to Rowland, 1st Viscount Hill, commander-in-chief of the British Army, whose nephew and heir apparent was Lady Teignmouth’s great-nephew. The untimely death from childbirth of Capt. Fletcher’s wife in January 1835, left him a 34-year-old widower with two infant sons. His portrait shows him to have been a good-looking redheaded officer, and his position as aide-de-camp to Lord Hill would place him within the orbit of high society – a combination that no doubt led to his brilliant second marriage. At the end of May 1838, Capt. Fletcher accompanied Viscount Hill to an inspection of the garrison at Dover Castle. Whether it was this sojourn into Kent that first brought him into the circle of the Earl of Romney I can’t determine, but at the end of July Captain Fletcher’s engagement to Lady Frances Marsham, the elder of Romney’s remaining two unmarried daughters, was announced.
https://en.wahooart.com/@@/9DH5QQ-George-Richmond-Portrait-Of-Edward-Charles-Fletcher

If the Marshams were not blessed with a large fortune (per the HOP entry for the 2nd Earl of Romney, when the 1st Earl died in 1811, he was said to be ‘very poor’ and to have been ‘forced to retire altogether from public life with a very insufficient income for his rank’), they could make up for it with a distinguished lineage, with Henry VII, the Dukes of Somerset, the Earls of Northumberland, Thomas Cromwell, and Sir Thomas Wyatt amongst their ancestors. Edward Fletcher’s two young sons from his first marriage grew up within the Marsham family circle of their stepmother, and when Henry Fletcher returned to England after his observations of the American Civil War, he took for his bride his stepmother’s niece, Lady Harriet Marsham.
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1790-1820/member/marsham-hon-charles-1777-1845

After Muriel Fletcher lost her father at age six and her mother at age fourteen, it was her step-grandmother, the matriarch Lady Frances (Marsham) Fletcher of Kenwood House, who became the chief influence in the lives of Muriel and her siblings. The write-up in the newspaper about Muriel’s 1894 marriage to Henry FitzHerbert Wright demonstrates just how important the Marsham family was to her: Muriel’s uncle Hon. & Rev. John Marsham performed her wedding ceremony, and her maiden aunts Lady Mary and Lady Anne Marsham hosted the reception afterwards.

The Genealogics database already has much of Muriel’s ancestry. But there are some lines that I can take further back to Edward I. First up is a correction. Genealogics has Thomas Bosville of Little Mote (in the parish of Eynsford, Kent), ancestor of Muriel (Fletcher) Wright, as the son of Sir Ralph Bosville and Mary Lennard, with Mary’s ancestry tracing back to Edward III.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00052145&tree=LEO

It cites as one of its sources, ‘An Account of the Families of Lennard and Barrett’ (1908), which does indeed show this marriage.
http://www.archive.org/stream/accountoffamilie02barr#page/216/mode/2up

There are no dates or ancestry for Sir Ralph Bosville. I can fill in some details. He has three lines of descent from Edward I. I’ll lay out one of them.

Sir RALPH BOSVILLE of Bradbourne House, Sevenoaks, Kent, bap. 26 June 1575 St Nicholas Church, Sevenoaks; bur. there 22 Jan. 1635/6; m. 2 Apr. 1594 St Nicholas Church, Sevenoaks, MARY LENNARD (bap. 22 Oct. 1574 St Botolph Church, Chevening, Kent; d. unknown), 2nd dau of Sampson Lennard of Chevening House (1544-1615) & Margaret Fiennes, 11th Baroness Dacre (1541-1612), descended from Edward III), and had issue, one son and one dau.
Portrait of Sir Ralph Bosville:
https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/sir-ralph-bosville-of-bradbourne-219019

Edward I had a dau
A1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester (1272-1307), who had
A2) Lady Margaret de Clare (1293-1342), who had
A3) Lady Margaret Audley (c.1321-1349) m. Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford, and had
A4) Hugh, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Lady Philippa Beauchamp (c.1340-bef.1385), and had
A5) Lady Katherine Stafford (c.1371-1419) m. Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl of Suffolk (1367-1415), and had
A6) Lady Isabel de la Pole (c.1397-1467) m. Thomas, 5th Lord Morley (1393-1435), and had
A7) Anne Morley (c.1420-1471) m. John Hastings of Gressenhall (1412-1477, descended from Edward I), and had
A8) Elizabeth Hastings m. Sir Robert Hildyard of Winestead Hall (d. 1501), and had
A9) Denise Hildyard m. Charles Barnby of Barnby Hall, and had
A10) Muriel Barnby m. John Bosville of Gunthwaite Hall (d. 1542), and had
A11) Sir Ralph Bosville of Bradbourne House (c.1522-1580) m. 1) Anne Clement, and had two sons A12 & B12 (see below)
A12) Henry Bosville of Bradbourne House (d. 1592) m. Elizabeth Morgan, and had
A13) Sir Ralph Bosville of Bradbourne House (1575-1636) m. Mary Lennard

But the problem is Sir Ralph Bosville and Mary Lennard did not have a son Thomas Bosville of Little Mote. The Bosville pedigree in the 1619-21 Visitation of Kent shows that their son and heir was Lennard Bosville (1598-1640).
https://archive.org/details/visitationofkent00camd/page/170

Per a website on the history of Bradbourne, when Lennard Bosville died in February 1639/40, his heir was his sister, “Sir Ralph’s daughter Margaret and her husband Sir William Boswell…Margaret had come into possession of [Bradbourne] because her brother, Lennard was sickly and had no children. Sir Ralph, naturally wishing to continue the line, tried to make Margaret’s son James [Boswell], his heir. However, Ralph’s two brothers, Lewknor and George, contested this fiercely, for they would much rather have seen the property pass to Lewknor’s son, Leonard. In the end they got their own way; Lennard [Bosville] died in 1639, only four years after his father, and the property went to Lady Margaret [Boswell]. James, her only son, sadly died before his mother, so that when she died in 1682, the inheritance went to William, Lewknor’s grandson.”
https://www.bradbournelakes.co.uk/conservation-restoration/history

Had Lennard Bosville and Margaret (Bosville) Boswell had a brother Thomas Bosville of Little Mote, he would have been their heir to Bradbourne House, not the descendants of their uncle, their father Sir Ralph’s younger brother Lewknor Bosville. So if Sir Ralph Bosville wasn’t the father of Thomas Bosville of Little Mote, husband of Elizabeth Wyatt and father of Dame Margaretta (Bosville) Marsham, who was? Turns out that Thomas was the grandson of Sir Ralph’s first cousin, Henry Bosville of Little Mote (1587-1638), as shown by a detailed pedigree of the Bosvilles of Little Mote in ‘Some Account of Maidstone in Kent’ (1832).
https://books.google.ca/books?id=xqFfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=Sir+Thomas+Bosville+of+Little+Mote&source=bl&ots=zmYFkGCr-7&sig=ACfU3U2cKWri5VLAkJIWQVHMgNm2O3WcSw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjxkNGyoIziAhUIJDQIHbJMDA8Q6AEwAnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Sir%20Thomas%20Bosville%20of%20Little%20Mote&f=false

So Thomas Bosville of Little Mote loses the Edward III descents behind Mary Lennard, as she was not his mother, but he does have the three lines of descent from Edward I of the Bosvilles. Continuing from the descent above.

A11) Sir Ralph Bosville of Bradbourne House (c.1522-1580) m. 1) Anne Clement, and had two sons A12 (see above) & B12
B12) Sir Robert Bosville of Little Mote, 2nd son (d. 1623) m. Elizabeth Sybil (1565-1602), and had
B13) Sir Henry Bosville of Little Mote (1587-1638) m. Isabella Wiseman (see C4 below), and had
B14) Sir Thomas Bosville of Little Mote (1617-1643) m. Sarah ---, and had
B15) Thomas Bosville of Little Mote (1640-1660) m. Elizabeth Wyatt (descended from Edward III), and had
B16) Margaretta Bosville (1661-1710) m. Sir Robert Marsham, 4th Baronet of Cuxton

Plus, through this line the Marshams have a descent from Sir Thomas More, which I believe is the only line of descent that Sarah, Duchess of York has from the Tudor saint.

Sir Thomas More (1478-1535) had a dau,
C1) Margaret More (1505-1544) m. William Roper of Eltham (1495-1578), and had
C2) Anthony Roper of Farningham (1544-1597) m. Anne Cotton, and had
C3) Isabel Roper m. Sir Thomas Wiseman of Rivenhall (d. c.1654), and had
C4) Isabella Wiseman (1594-aft.1647) m. 1) Sir Henry Bosville of Little Mote (see B13 above)

More to follow.

Cheers, ------Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 1:22:28 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> More to follow.

Continuing with the ancestry of Muriel (Fletcher) Wright, maternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York, there is in the Genealogics database, George Pitt, third husband of Jane (Savage), Lady Chandos, with a death date but no other details, or ancestry.
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00057935&tree=LEO

GEORGE PITT of Stratfield Saye House, Hampshire, M.P. Wareham 1660-61, b. 9 May 1625 Heckfield, Hampshire, bap. 19 May 1625 St Michael Church, Heckfield; d. 27 July 1694, bur. 11 Aug. 1694 St Mary Church, Stratfield Saye; m. 1657, JANE (SAVAGE), Lady CHANDOS of Sudeley (b. c. 1633; d. 6 June 1676), widow of (a) George Brydges, 6th Baron Chandos (1620-1655, descended from Henry VII), and (b) Sir William Sedley, 4th Baronet of Aylesford (c.1625-1656, descended from Edward I), and dau of John Savage, 2nd Earl Rivers (1606-1654, descended from Edward III) & Hon. Katherine Parker (descended from Edward III).

George Pitt has an entry in HOP.
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1660-1690/member/pitt-george-1625-94

As does his father Edward Pitt:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/pitt-edward-1592-1643

And his grandfather Sir William Pitt:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/pitt-william-1559-1636

Thru his mother Rachel (Morton) Pitt, George has three lines of descent from Edward III, plus several others from Edward I. Here is one of the descents.

Edward III had a 2nd surviving son:

1) Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (1338-1368), who had

2) Philippa Plantagenet, 5th Countess of Ulster (1355-1377) m. Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March (1352-1381), and had

3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry ‘Hotspur’ Percy (1364-1403), and had

4) Henry Percy, 2nd Earl of Northumberland (1394-1455) m. Lady Eleanor Neville (1403-1472, descended from Edward III), and had

5) Henry Percy, 3rd Earl of Northumberland (1421-1461) m. Eleanor Poynings (1428-1484, descended from Edward I), and had
6) Lady Margaret Percy m. Sir William Gascoigne of Gawthorpe Hall (c.1450-1487, descended from Edward III), and had
7) Elizabeth Gascoigne (c.1480-1559) m. Sir George Tailboys of South Kyme (1467-1538, descended from Edward I), and had
8) Elizabeth Tailboys m. Sir Christopher Willoughby of Parham Hall (d. by 1540, descended from Edward I), and had
9) Anne Willoughby (c.1517-1586) m. Edmund Hall of Greatford (by 1519-1592, descended from Edward I), and had
10) Rachel Hall (c.1545-1629) m. Sir Arthur Hopton of Witham Friary (c.1545-1607, descended from Edward I), and had
11) Katherine Hopton m. Sir George Morton of Milborne St Andrew (d. 1611), and had
12) Rachel Morton (c.1600-1643) m. Edward Pitt of Stratfield Saye House (c.1592-1643), and had
13) George Pitt of Stratfield Saye House (1625-1694)

More to follow after the weekend.

Cheers, ------Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> Thru his mother Rachel (Morton) Pitt, George has three lines of descent from Edward III, plus several others from Edward I. Here is one of the descents.

Credit to Will Johnson, who brought up the ancestry of Rachel (Morton) Pitt back in March 2008.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/BlnLlFAG4Zc/YJPaY47ewZAJ

> More to follow after the weekend.

Continuing with the ancestry of Muriel (Fletcher) Wright, maternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York, the Genealogics database has Lora Grey, the wife of George Pitt, and the mother of the architect John Pitt of Encombe House. The only ancestry for Lora in the database is that of her maternal great-grandfather John Trevelyan, who descends from Edward III thru his mother, Urith (Chichester) Trevelyan.
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00057932&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=6

Back in 2008, Will Johnson traced the line of Lora’s father Audley Grey for several generations, though the information didn’t make it into Genealogics.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/BlnLlFAG4Zc/hLo6mNFc_XUJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/zjY20njja0Q/7sSefuPETQsJ

Will pointed out the 16 March 1665/6 marriage licence of “Audley Grey, of Nether Stowey, co. Somerset, Gent., Bachr, abt 28, & Mrs Margaret Trevelyan, of Nettlecombe, said co., Spr, abt 22, her parents dead…”
https://archive.org/details/allegationsforma2324ches/page/n129

Will naturally assumed from this that Audley Grey was born about 1637/8, and Margaret Trevelyan was born about 1643/4. However, the couple’s self-reported ages appear to be off quite a bit. Margaret Trevelyan was baptized 26 August 1634 St Mary Church, Beaminster, Dorset (the parish wherein lay Parnham House, the seat of her maternal family). So she was actually aged about 32, not 22, at her marriage. It’s possible the ages were mis-transcribed in the marriage licence, or that Margaret aged herself down as much as possible (as long as both were over 21, they didn’t need permission from a parent or guardian to wed). I cannot locate online a baptism entry for Audley Grey, but if we assume her husband was also about ten years older than his reported age, he would be born 1627/8. So instead of being the son of his father Angel Grey’s second wife Grace Fulwood (married 2 Oct. 1633 St Martin in the Fields, London; buried 3 Aug. 1672 St Michael Church, Stinsford, Dorset), Audley would be the son of his father’s first wife Katherine Stawell (married 28 Mar. 1625 St Lawrence Church, Ardeley, Hertfordshire; buried 10 Jan. 1632/3 St Michael Church, Stinsford).

Victorian-era genealogist John Paul Rylands, one of the editors of the published 1623 Visitation of Dorset, makes both of Angel Grey’s sons, George Grey and Audley Grey, from his first marriage to Katherine Stawell. This would explain the first name ‘Audley’, as it was Katherine Stawell, not Grace Fulwood, who descended from the Barons Audley.
https://archive.org/details/miscellaneagenea02howa/page/n335

I’m following Rylands in this case, and in my database, I have Audley Grey as the son of Katherine Stawell. This gives Lora (Grey) Pitt three lines of descent from Edward III, in addition to the one through Urith (Chichester) Trevelyan already in Genealogics.

LORA GREY, b. posthumously Kingston Maurward House, Stinsford, Dorset, bap. 14 Dec. 1675 St Michael Church, Stinsford; d. Bath, Somersetshire, bur. 9 June 1750 St Mary Church, Stratfield Saye, Hampshire; m. by 1700, as his 2nd wife, GEORGE PITT of Stratfield Saye House, M.P. Wareham 1698-1702, 1705-10, 1713-15, Hampshire 1702-05, 1710-13, 1715-22 (bap. 18 June 1663 St Paul Covent Garden, London; d. 28 Feb. 1735, bur. 12 Mar. 1735 St Mary Church, Stratfield Saye), son of George Pitt of Stratfield Saye House (1625-1694, descended from Edward III) & Lady Jane Savage (c.1633-1676, descended from Edward III), and had issue, four sons & five daus.

Edward III had sons A1, B1 & C1 (see below)
A1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1397), who had
A2) John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset (1373-1410) m. Lady Margaret Holland (1383-1439, descended from Edward I), and had
A3) Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset (1406-1455) m. Lady Eleanor Beauchamp (1408-1467, descended from Edward I), and had
A4) Lady Margaret Beaufort (c.1437-1474) m. 2) Sir Richard Darrell of Littlecote (c.1420-1489), and had
A5) Margaret Darrell (c.1464-by 1488) m. James Tuchet, 7th Lord Audley (c.1463-1497, descended from Edward I), and had
A6) John Tuchet, 8th Lord Audley (c.1485-1557) m. Mary Griffin, and had
A7) George Tuchet, 9th Lord Audley (d. 1560) m. 1) Isabel Tuke (d. 1554), and had
A8) Henry Tuchet, 10th Lord Audley (d. 1563) m. Elizabeth Sneyd (c.1530-1609), and had
A9) George Tuchet, 1st Earl of Castlehaven (c.1555-1617) m. 1) Lucy Mervyn (d. 1610), and had
A10) Lady Elizabeth Tuchet (c.1582-1662) m. 1) Sir John Stawell of Stawell (d. 1604, descended from Edward I), and had
A11) Katherine Stawell (c.1603-1633) m. Angel Grey of Kingston Maurward House (1602-1670, descended from Edward I), and had
A12) Audley Grey of Kingston Maurward House (c.1630-1675) m. Margaret Trevelyan (see B12 below), and had
A13) Lora Grey (1675-1750) m. George Pitt

B1) Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (1338-1368), who had
B2) Philippa Plantagenet, 5th Countess of Ulster (1355-1377), who had
B3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry ‘Hotspur’ Percy (1364-1403), and had

B4) Lady Elizabeth Percy (c.1395-1436) m. 1) John, 7th Lord Clifford (1388-1422, descended from Edward I), and had
B5) Mary Clifford (c.1420-by 1458) m. Sir Philip Wentworth of Nettlestead (1424-1464), and had
B6) Sir Henry Wentworth of Nettlestead (1448-1499) m. 1) Anne Say (c.1448-aft.1489), and had
B7) Margery Wentworth (c.1478-1550) m. Sir John Seymour of Wolf Hall (c.1474-1536), and had
B8) Elizabeth Seymour (c.1514-1568) m. 2) Gregory, 1st Baron Cromwell (c.1519-1551), and had
B9) Katherine Cromwell (c.1541-by 1571) m. John Strode of Parnham House (1524-1581), and had
B10) Sir Robert Strode of Parnham House (1559-1616) m. 2) Margaret Wyndham (descended from Edward I), and had
B11) Margaret Strode (1612-1646) m. George Trevelyan of Nettlecombe Court (see C11 below), and had
B12) Margaret Trevelyan (1634-by 1723*) m. Audley Grey of Kingston Maurward House (see A12 above)

*I cannot locate online a burial entry for Margaret (Trevelyan) Grey, but she was no doubt dead by 1723, when a marble memorial to her and her husband was erected in Stinsford Church.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/dorset/vol3/pp252-257

C1) Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York (1341-1402), who had
C2) Lady Constance of York (c.1375-1416) = Edmund Holland, 4th Earl of Kent (1382-1408, descended from Edward I), and had
C3) Eleanor Holland, illegit. m. James Tuchet, 5th Lord Audley (c.1398-1459), and had
C4) Sir Humphrey Audley of Middleton (c.1435-1471) m. Elizabeth Courtenay (c.1435-1493, descended from Edward I), and had
C5) Philippa Audley (d. aft.1527) m. Richard Hadley of Withycombe (d. 1524), and had
C6) James Hadley of Withycombe (1494-1537) m. 1) Fridiswide Mathew, and had
C7) Christopher Hadley of Withycombe (c.1518-1540) m. Anne Hill, and had
C8) Margaret Hadley (c.1539-1607) m. Thomas Luttrell of Dunster Castle (c.1521-1571, descended from Edward I), and had
C9) George Luttrell of Dunster Castle (1560-1629) m. 1) Joan Stewkley (d. 1621, descended from Edward I), and had
C10) Margaret Luttrell (1584-1617) m. John Trevelyan, heir of Nettlecombe Court (c.1577-1621, descended from Edward III), and had
C11) George Trevelyan of Nettlecombe Court (1613-1653) m. Margaret Strode (see B11 above)

If anyone wants details on any of the Edward I descents referred to in the three Edward III lines above, just let me know.

This completes the additional Edward I lines I can add to the ancestry of Muriel (Fletcher) Wright, the sixth of the eight great-grandparents of Sarah, Duchess of York. More to follow.

Cheers, ----Brad

[John Higgins]

On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 2:08:03 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 12:55:22 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:

> Elizabeth (Beresford) Wright was the daughter of Francis Beresford of Ashbourne, barrister-at-law, and Fanny Reynolds, both of whom have lines back to Edward I. The Genealogics and Roglo databases don’t yet show any of these lines. I have ten Edward I lines for Elizabeth’s father Francis Beresford.
>
> Edward I had two daus A1 & G1 & a son E1 (see below)
> A1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had
> A2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m. Elizabeth Badlesmere, and had
> A3) Lady Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of Arundel, and had
> A4) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 3) Sir Robert Goushill of Hoveringham, and had
> A5) Joan Goushill m. Thomas, 1st Lord Stanley (1406-1459), and had a son A6 & a dau C6 (see below)
> A6) Sir William Stanley of Holt Castle (c.1435-1495) m. 2) Elizabeth Hopton (see E7 below), and had
> A7) Jane Stanley m. Sir John Warburton of Warburton (d. 1523), and had
> A8) Ellen Warburton m. John Carrington of Carrington (c.1495-1549), and had
> A9) Jane Carrington m. Edward Holland of Denton Hall (d. 1570), and had a dau A10 & a son B10 (see below)
> A10) Mary Holland (d. 1619) m. John Arderne of Harden Hall (d. 1613), and had
> A11) Henry Arderne of Harden Hall (1580-1623) m. Margaret Legh (see C11 below), and had
> A12) Mary Arderne (1605-1684) m. Francis Beresford of Fenny Bentley (c.1599-1671), and had
> A13) Francis Beresford, Heir of Fenny Bentley (1629-1666) m. Frances Holland (see B12 below), and had
> A14) John Beresford of Fenny Bentley (c.1654-1724) m. 2) Elizabeth Shallcross (c.1660-1745), and had
> A15) John Beresford of Fenny Bentley (c.1688-1755) m. Frances Fitzherbert (see H17 below), and had
> A16) Francis Beresford of Ashbourne (1737-1801) m. Fanny Reynolds (1740-1815, descended from Edward III), and had
> A17) Elizabeth Beresford (1762-1833) m. John Wright of Lenton Hall

>
>
> The next post will be an addition to Ruvigny’s Mortimer-Percy volume.
>

> Cheers, ----Brad

I can add two more Edward I descents for this, both for Elizabeth Shallcross who appears in A14 above.

A1. Edward I, King of England; m. (1) Eleanor of Castile
A2. Elizabeth of England; m. Humphrey de Bohun, 4th Earl of Hereford and Essex
A3. William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton; m. Elizabeth Baddlesmere
A4. Elizabeth de Bohun; m. Richard Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel
A5. Elizabeth Fitzalan; m. Sir Robert Goushill
A6. Joan Goushill; m. Thomas Stanley, 1st Lord Stanley
A7. Sir William Stanley of Holt; m. (2) (her 3rd) Elizabeth Hopton [see B8 below]
A8. Jane Stanley of Holt; m. Sir John Warburton of Arley
A9. Blanche Warburton; m. William Davenport of Bramhall, Cheshire (d. 1541)
A10. Margaret Davenport; m. (his 1st) Leonard Shallcross of Shallcross (d. 7.VII.1605)
A11. John Shallcross (b. before 1565, d. [vp] 1593); m. (1) Prue Walker of Bramshall, Uttoxeter
A12. Richard Shallcross of Shallcross (d. 1623 aged about 51); m. Mary Jodrell
A13. Col. John Shallcross of Shallcross (b. 1603, d. 1673); m. Elizabeth Bagshawe of the Ridge (bur. 1647 aged 42)
A14. Richard Shallcross of Shallcross (bap. 1.II.1631/2, bur. 21.III.1675/6); m. (1 of 3) 12.VI.1656 Anne Rowley of Rowley
A15. Elizabeth Shallcross (bur 23.III.1746 aged 85); m. 20.I.1684 (his 2nd) John Beresford of Beresford Hall

B1. Edward I, King of England; m. (2) Marguerite de France
B2. Thomas [of Brotherton], Earl of Norfolk; m. (1) Alice Hayles
B3. Margaret Plantagenet, Duchess of Norfolk; m. (1) John de Segrave, 4th Lord Segrave
B4. Elizabeth Segrave; m. John [III] de Mowbray, 4th Lord Mowbray
B5. Margaret Mowbray; m. (his 1st) Sir Reginald Lucy of Dallington, Northamptonshire, and Newington, Kent
B6. Sir Walter Lucy of Newington and Dallington; m. Eleanor l'Archdekne
B7. Eleanor Lucy; m. Sir Thomas Hopton of Staunton-on-Arrow, Herefordshire, and Hopton, Shropshire
B8. Elizabeth Hopton; m. (3) (his 2nd) Sir William Stanley of Holt [see A7 above]

Details on generations A1 through A9 and B1 through B8 can be found in the Genealogics database. Details on generations A10 through A15 can be found in two publications on the Shallcross family by Rev. W. H. Shawcross [sic], both of which are available in digital form via the FHL. The first (1896) is here:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/477249
And the second (1908) is here:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/238404?availability=Family%20History%20Library

[Brad Verity]

On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 4:46:21 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> I can add two more Edward I descents for this, both for Elizabeth Shallcross who appears in A14 above.

Many thanks for researching the Shallcross ancestry, John. I didn't have anything on that family, and have now added the line back to Edward I into my database.

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 2:10:38 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> If anyone wants details on any of the Edward I descents referred to in the three Edward III lines above, just let me know.

Olivier has asked for the Edward I lines behind Lora (Grey) Pitt. As the ones in the earlier generations are well-traversed ground, I'm going to only focus on the lines behind the following five generations in my previous post (see below): A10, A11, B10, C8 and C9, specifically the eight lines thru Edward I's daughter Elizabeth, countess of Hereford.

> A10) Lady Elizabeth Tuchet (c.1582-1662) m. 1) Sir John Stawell of Stawell (d. 1604, descended from Edward I), and had
> A11) Katherine Stawell (c.1603-1633) m. Angel Grey of Kingston Maurward House (1602-1670, descended from Edward I), and had
> A12) Audley Grey of Kingston Maurward House (c.1630-1675) m. Margaret Trevelyan (see B12 below), and had
> A13) Lora Grey (1675-1750) m. George Pitt

> B10) Sir Robert Strode of Parnham House (1559-1616) m. 2) Margaret Wyndham (descended from Edward I), and had
> B11) Margaret Strode (1612-1646) m. George Trevelyan of Nettlecombe Court (see C11 below), and had
> B12) Margaret Trevelyan (1634-by 1723*) m. Audley Grey of Kingston Maurward House (see A12 above)

> C8) Margaret Hadley (c.1539-1607) m. Thomas Luttrell of Dunster Castle (c.1521-1571, descended from Edward I), and had
> C9) George Luttrell of Dunster Castle (1560-1629) m. 1) Joan Stewkley (d. 1621, descended from Edward I), and had
> C10) Margaret Luttrell (1584-1617) m. John Trevelyan, heir of Nettlecombe Court (c.1577-1621, descended from Edward III), and had
> C11) George Trevelyan of Nettlecombe Court (1613-1653) m. Margaret Strode (see B11 above)

Edward I had
D1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had a dau D2 and a son J2 (see below)
D2) Lady Margaret de Bohun (1311-1391) m. Hugh Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon, and had sons D3 & G3, and daus H3 & I3 (see below)
D3) Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham Castle (1347-1406) m. Anne Wake, and had
D4) Sir John Courtenay of Place Barton (c.1381-c.1413) m. Joan Champernowne (c.1379-1419), and had
D5) Sir Philip Courtenay of Powderham Castle (1404-1463) m. Elizabeth Hungerford (c.1410-1476), and had a son D6 and a dau E6 (see below)
D6) Sir Philip Courtenay of Molland (c.1430-1489) m. Elizabeth Wonwell (c.1432-1482), and had
D7) Philip Courtenay of Loughter (c.1469-1514) m. Joan Fowell (d. 1523), and had
D8) Elizabeth Courtenay (1513-aft.1581) m. William Strode of Newnham (1504-1579), and had
D9) Agnes Strode (c.1535-1566) m. Edward Yarde of Churston Court (1531-1583), and had
D10) Mary Yarde m. Christopher Grey of Kingston Maurward House (d. 1607), and had
D11) George Grey, Heir of Kingston Maurward House (d. 1602) m. Joan Smith, and had
D12) Angel Grey of Kingston Maurward House (1602-1670) m. Katherine Stawell (see A11 above)

E6) Elizabeth Courtenay (c.1435-1493) m. 1) Sir James Luttrell of Dunster Castle (see I6 below), and had a son E7 and a dau F7 (see below)
E7) Sir Hugh Luttrell of Dunster Castle (d. 1523) m. 1) Margaret Hill (d. by 1507), and had
E8) Sir Andrew Luttrell of Dunster Castle (c.1486-1538) m. Margaret Wyndham (see J9 below), and had
E9) Thomas Luttrell of Dunster Castle (c.1521-1571) m. Margaret Hadley (see C8 above)

F7) Jane Luttrell m. George Stewkley of Marsh (d. 1508), and had
F8) Peter Stewkley of Marsh m. Agnes Trubody, and had
F9) Sir Hugh Stewkley of Marsh (d. 1589) m. Elizabeth Chamberlain (d. 1598), and had
F10) Joan Stewkley (d. 1621) m. George Luttrell of Dunster Castle (see C9 above)

G3) Sir Edward Courtenay (c.1332-c.1370) m. Emmeline Dauney (1327-1371), and had
G4) Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (c.1360-1425) m. 3) Philippa Arcedekne (1386-by 1416), and had
G5) Joan Courtenay (1411-1465) m. 1) Sir Nicholas Carew of Mohun Ottery (1408-1448, descended from Edward I), and had
G6) Thomas Carew of Mohun Ottery (c.1427-1461) m. Joan Carminow (1427-1502), and had
G7) Nicholas Carew of Mohun Ottery (c.1446-1470) m. Margery Dinham (d. 1471), and had
G8) Sir Edmund Carew of Mohun Ottery (c.1464-1513) m. Katherine Huddesfield, and had
G9) Dorothy Carew m. Sir John Stawell of Stawell (see H11 below), and had
G10) Richard Stawell of Stawell m. Lady Alice Paulet (dau of 1st Marquess of Winchester, descended from Edward I), and had
G11) Sir John Stawell of Stawell (d. 1603) m. Frances Dyer, and had
G12) Sir John Stawell of Stawell (d. 1604) m. Lady Elizabeth Tuchet (see A10 above)

H3) Lady Margaret Courtenay (1328-1395) m. John, 3rd Lord Cobham (c.1328-1408), and had
H4) Joan Cobham (c.1352-by 1388) m. Sir John de la Pole of Castle Ashby (c.1348-1380), and had
H5) Joan de la Pole, 4th Lady Cobham (c.1370-1434) m. 2) Sir Reynald Braybrooke (c.1356-1405), and had
H6) Joan Braybrooke, 5th Lady Cobham (c.1395-1442) m. Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham (1391-1439), and had
H7) Elizabeth Brooke (c.1411-1457) m. 1) John St Maur of North Molton (1409-1438), and had
H8) Sir Thomas St Maur of North Molton (1427-1489) m. Philippa Hungerford, and had
H9) John St Maur, Heir of North Molton (d. 1485) m. Elizabeth Choke, and had
H10) Anne St Maur m. Robert Stawell of Stawell (1476-1508), and had
H11) Sir John Stawell of Stawell (d. 1541) m. Dorothy Carew (see G9 above)

I3) Lady Elizabeth Courtenay (1329-1395) m. 2) Sir Andrew Luttrell of Chilton (d. 1378), and had
I4) Sir Hugh Luttrell of Dunster Castle (1364-1428) m. Katherine Beaumont (d. 1435), and had
I5) Sir John Luttrell of Dunster Castle (c.1394-1430) m. Margaret Tuchet (d. 1438), and had
I6) Sir James Luttrell of Dunster Castle (c.1425-1461) m. Elizabeth Courtenay (see E6 above)

J2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m. Elizabeth Badlesmere, and had
J3) Lady Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of Arundel (1346-1397), and had
J4) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 2) Thomas Mowbray, 1st Duke of Norfolk (1366-1399, descended from Edward I), and had
J5) Lady Margaret Mowbray (c.1398-1459) m. 1) Sir Robert Howard of Stoke Nayland (c.1395-1436), and had
J6) John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk (c.1430-1485) m. 1) Katherine Moleyns (c.1425-1465), and had
J7) Lady Margaret Howard m. Sir John Wyndham of Felbrigg Hall (1453-1502), and had
J8) Sir Thomas Wyndham of Felbrigg Hall (d. 1522) m. 1) Eleanor Scrope (c.1477-by 1509, descended from Edward I), and had a dau J9 and a son K9 (see below)
J9) Margaret Wyndham (c.1500-1580) m. Sir Andrew Luttrell of Dunster Castle (see E8 above)

K9) Sir John Wyndham of Orchard Wyndham (c.1504-1574) m. Elizabeth Sydenham (d. 1572), and had
K10) Edmund Wyndham of Kentsford (c.1536-1616) m. Margaret Chamberlain (d. 1585), and had
K11) Margaret Wyndham m. Sir Robert Strode of Parnham House (see B10 above)

Leslie Mahler has notified me that the Genealogics database has been updated, including new ancestry for Sarah, Duchess of York. I'm going to have a good search thru it, and hopefully this next week, make some more posts on the Edward I lines behind the two great-grandparents of the Duchess of York that I haven't yet discussed.

Cheers, -----Brad

[leslie...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 2:10:38 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> > Thru his mother Rachel (Morton) Pitt, George has three lines of descent from Edward III, plus several others from Edward I. Here is one of the descents.
>
> Credit to Will Johnson, who brought up the ancestry of Rachel (Morton) Pitt back in March 2008.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/BlnLlFAG4Zc/YJPaY47ewZAJ
>
> > More to follow after the weekend.
>
> Continuing with the ancestry of Muriel (Fletcher) Wright, maternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York, the Genealogics database has Lora Grey, the wife of George Pitt, and the mother of the architect John Pitt of Encombe House. The only ancestry for Lora in the database is that of her maternal great-grandfather John Trevelyan, who descends from Edward III thru his mother, Urith (Chichester) Trevelyan.
> http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00057932&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=6
>
> Back in 2008, Will Johnson traced the line of Lora’s father Audley Grey for several generations, though the information didn’t make it into Genealogics.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/BlnLlFAG4Zc/hLo6mNFc_XUJ
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/zjY20njja0Q/7sSefuPETQsJ
>
> Will pointed out the 16 March 1665/6 marriage licence of “Audley Grey, of Nether Stowey, co. Somerset, Gent., Bachr, abt 28, & Mrs Margaret Trevelyan, of Nettlecombe, said co., Spr, abt 22, her parents dead…”
> https://archive.org/details/allegationsforma2324ches/page/n129
>
> Will naturally assumed from this that Audley Grey was born about 1637/8, and Margaret Trevelyan was born about 1643/4. However, the couple’s self-reported ages appear to be off quite a bit. Margaret Trevelyan was baptized 26 August 1634 St Mary Church, Beaminster, Dorset (the parish wherein lay Parnham House, the seat of her maternal family). So she was actually aged about 32, not 22, at her marriage. It’s possible the ages were mis-transcribed in the marriage licence, or that Margaret aged herself down as much as possible (as long as both were over 21, they didn’t need permission from a parent or guardian to wed). I cannot locate online a baptism entry for Audley Grey, but if we assume her husband was also about ten years older than his reported age, he would be born 1627/8. So instead of being the son of his father Angel Grey’s second wife Grace Fulwood (married 2 Oct. 1633 St Martin in the Fields, London; buried 3 Aug. 1672 St Michael Church, Stinsford, Dorset), Audley would be the son of his father’s first wife Katherine Stawell (married 28 Mar. 1625 St Lawrence Church, Ardeley, Hertfordshire; buried 10 Jan. 1632/3 St Michael Church, Stinsford).
>
> Victorian-era genealogist John Paul Rylands, one of the editors of the published 1623 Visitation of Dorset, makes both of Angel Grey’s sons, George Grey and Audley Grey, from his first marriage to Katherine Stawell. This would explain the first name ‘Audley’, as it was Katherine Stawell, not Grace Fulwood, who descended from the Barons Audley.
> https://archive.org/details/miscellaneagenea02howa/page/n335
>
> I’m following Rylands in this case, and in my database, I have Audley Grey as the son of Katherine Stawell. This gives Lora (Grey) Pitt three lines of descent from Edward III, in addition to the one through Urith (Chichester) Trevelyan already in Genealogics.

There is more evidence that Katherine Stawell was the mother of Audley Gray.


A monument for this family is here:

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/rchme/dorset/vol3/plate-203

https://www.wikitree.com/photo.php/0/0b/Grey-1824.jpg


Leslie

[wjhonson]

That you have found that Audeley Grey is a son by Katherine Stawell, means that Sarah Duchess of York descends, as a result of one of the most infamous divorces of the time.

When John Stawell of Cothelstone wanted to divorce his wife Mary Portman, because she was famously sleeping around with anyone who would have her, it took many years and bribes before he could finally marry Frances Dyer 10 Apr 1572 "date of pre-nuptual settlement"

His son John, was from this second marriage, he married Elizabeth Audley and died the year after his father. AT which time, the divorced Mary Portman, claimed dower in the estate, even though she wasn't due anything

[leslie...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 2:10:38 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> > Thru his mother Rachel (Morton) Pitt, George has three lines of descent from Edward III, plus several others from Edward I. Here is one of the descents.
>
> Credit to Will Johnson, who brought up the ancestry of Rachel (Morton) Pitt back in March 2008.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/BlnLlFAG4Zc/YJPaY47ewZAJ
>
> > More to follow after the weekend.
>
> Continuing with the ancestry of Muriel (Fletcher) Wright, maternal great-grandmother of Sarah, Duchess of York, the Genealogics database has Lora Grey, the wife of George Pitt, and the mother of the architect John Pitt of Encombe House. The only ancestry for Lora in the database is that of her maternal great-grandfather John Trevelyan, who descends from Edward III thru his mother, Urith (Chichester) Trevelyan.
> http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00057932&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=6
>
> Back in 2008, Will Johnson traced the line of Lora’s father Audley Grey for several generations, though the information didn’t make it into Genealogics.
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/BlnLlFAG4Zc/hLo6mNFc_XUJ
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/zjY20njja0Q/7sSefuPETQsJ
>
> Will pointed out the 16 March 1665/6 marriage licence of “Audley Grey, of Nether Stowey, co. Somerset, Gent., Bachr, abt 28, & Mrs Margaret Trevelyan, of Nettlecombe, said co., Spr, abt 22, her parents dead…”
> https://archive.org/details/allegationsforma2324ches/page/n129
>
> Will naturally assumed from this that Audley Grey was born about 1637/8, and Margaret Trevelyan was born about 1643/4. However, the couple’s self-reported ages appear to be off quite a bit. Margaret Trevelyan was baptized 26 August 1634 St Mary Church, Beaminster, Dorset (the parish wherein lay Parnham House, the seat of her maternal family). So she was actually aged about 32, not 22, at her marriage. It’s possible the ages were mis-transcribed in the marriage licence, or that Margaret aged herself down as much as possible (as long as both were over 21, they didn’t need permission from a parent or guardian to wed). I cannot locate online a baptism entry for Audley Grey, but if we assume her husband was also about ten years older than his reported age, he would be born 1627/8. So instead of being the son of his father Angel Grey’s second wife Grace Fulwood (married 2 Oct. 1633 St Martin in the Fields, London; buried 3 Aug. 1672 St Michael Church, Stinsford, Dorset), Audley would be the son of his father’s first wife Katherine Stawell (married 28 Mar. 1625 St Lawrence Church, Ardeley, Hertfordshire; buried 10 Jan. 1632/3 St Michael Church, Stinsford).
>
> Victorian-era genealogist John Paul Rylands, one of the editors of the published 1623 Visitation of Dorset, makes both of Angel Grey’s sons, George Grey and Audley Grey, from his first marriage to Katherine Stawell. This would explain the first name ‘Audley’, as it was Katherine Stawell, not Grace Fulwood, who descended from the Barons Audley.
> https://archive.org/details/miscellaneagenea02howa/page/n335
>
> I’m following Rylands in this case, and in my database, I have Audley Grey as the son of Katherine Stawell. This gives Lora (Grey) Pitt three lines of descent from Edward III, in addition to the one through Urith (Chichester) Trevelyan already in Genealogics.
>
> LORA GREY, b. posthumously Kingston Maurward House, Stinsford, Dorset, bap. 14 Dec. 1675 St Michael Church, Stinsford; d. Bath, Somersetshire, bur. 9 June 1750 St Mary Church, Stratfield Saye, Hampshire; m. by 1700, as his 2nd wife, GEORGE PITT of Stratfield Saye House, M.P. Wareham 1698-1702, 1705-10, 1713-15, Hampshire 1702-05, 1710-13, 1715-22 (bap. 18 June 1663 St Paul Covent Garden, London; d. 28 Feb. 1735, bur. 12 Mar. 1735 St Mary Church, Stratfield Saye), son of George Pitt of Stratfield Saye House (1625-1694, descended from Edward III) & Lady Jane Savage (c.1633-1676, descended from Edward III), and had issue, four sons & five daus.

scended from Edward I), and had

(various lineages deleted )

> This completes the additional Edward I lines I can add to the ancestry of Muriel (Fletcher) Wright, the sixth of the eight great-grandparents of Sarah, Duchess of York. More to follow.
>
> Cheers, ----Brad

George Pitt and Lora Grey's son, John Pitt of Encombe, d.1787,
was married to Marcia Morgan, daughter of Mark Anthony Morgan.

The family of Mark Anthony Morgan of Cottelstown, co. Sligo, Ireland
is recorded in
Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry, Volume 2:

https://books.google.com/books?id=0NEKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1398&dq=mark+anthony+morgan+cottelstown&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinwe62tc7iAhXTu54KHYDSA4IQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=mark%20anthony%20morgan%20cottelstown&f=false


Mark Anthony's children were by Catherine, d. 7 Oct. 1738,
daughter of Chidley Coote of Coote Hall, co. Roscommon.

The children of Chidley Coote and his second wife, Mary King, including Catherine, are recorded in Bernard Burke,
A Genealogical History of the Dormant: Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages ...:

https://books.google.com/books?id=OpxfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA135&dq=chidley+coote+mary+king+henry+dering&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwju4dmtts7iAhURr54KHSMRB0MQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=chidley%20coote%20mary%20king%20henry%20dering&f=false


Chidley was a son of Richard Coote, 1st Baron Coote, of Coloony,
and his wife Mary St. George.

Mary St. George has descents from Edward I:

http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00003300&tree=LEO


Chidley Coote's wife Mary King was a daughter of Robert King of Boyle Abbey,
and Frances Gore:

https://books.google.com/books?id=50U8V81WlnEC&pg=PA405&dq=chidley+coote+mary+king+henry+dering&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjelOvRuM7iAhUTpJ4KHe3YBsMQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=chidley%20coote%20mary%20king%20henry%20dering&f=false


Robert King and Frances Gore were both descendants of Edward I:

http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00224143&tree=LEO


Leslie

[John Higgins]

As Leslie indicates, there are quite a number of royal descents behind Marcia Morgan. Sticking strictly to Edward I descents, I presently count 19 such descents for her. Leslie has noted her Edward I descents through her King, Gore, and St. George ancestors. I also show a couple of E1 descents through her great-grandmother Bridget Blayney, wife of Robert Morgan of Cottlestown.

This Robert Morgan of Cottlestown was the first of the family to settle in Ireland. According to early editions of Burke's LG and at least two other sources (Bradney's Monmouthshire and G. T. Clark's Limbus Patrum Morganiae), he was a younger son of Sir Thomas Morgan of Pencoed by his wife Cecily, daughter of Sir George Herbert of Swansea. Through Cecily a few more Edward I descents could be added to this line. But the chronology is difficult here - at least one and probably two more generations are needed between Sir Thomas Morgan and Robert Morgan of Cottlestown for the line to work.

[Brad Verity]

On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 4:22:17 PM UTC-7, lma...@att.net wrote:
> The family of Mark Anthony Morgan of Cottelstown, co. Sligo, Ireland
> is recorded in
> Burke's Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry, Volume 2:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=0NEKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1398&dq=mark+anthony+morgan+cottelstown&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinwe62tc7iAhXTu54KHYDSA4IQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=mark%20anthony%20morgan%20cottelstown&f=false
> Mark Anthony's children were by Catherine, d. 7 Oct. 1738,
> daughter of Chidley Coote of Coote Hall, co. Roscommon.

[snip]

Dear Leslie,

This is great research - you've opened up much more ancestry for Sarah Ferguson by identifying the parents of Marcia (Morgan) Pitt!

On Monday, June 3, 2019 at 9:11:08 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> As Leslie indicates, there are quite a number of royal descents behind Marcia Morgan. Sticking strictly to Edward I descents, I presently count 19 such descents for her. Leslie has noted her Edward I descents through her King, Gore, and St. George ancestors. I also show a couple of E1 descents through her great-grandmother Bridget Blayney, wife of Robert Morgan of Cottlestown.

Dear John,

I've finished entering the Edward I lines that I could find for Marcia (Morgan) Pitt. I came up with 15. I know you & I count the lines differently - hopefully we match up. But in case we don't, please let me know what I'm missing, or have incorrect.

Edward I had two daus A1 & G1 and a son N1 (see below)
A1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had two daus A2 & F2 and a son E2 (see below)
A2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond (1305-1338), and had
A3) Lady Petronilla Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.1332-1387), and had a son A4 & a dau D4 (see below)
A4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (by 1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange (by 1361-1413), and had
A5) Alice Talbot (c.1393-1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre (c.1390-by 1420), and had
A6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall Heir of Burford (c.1382-1435), and had a dau A7 & a son C7 (see below)
A7) Eleanor Cornewall (c.1435-1519) m. 2) Sir Richard Croft of Croft Castle (1429-1509), and had
A8) Sir Edward Croft of Croft Castle (1465-1541) m. Joyce Skull, and had
A9) Margaret Croft m. John Aprice of Clun, and had
A10) Joyce Price m. Matthew Price of Newtown Hall (d. c.1556), and had
A11) John Price of Newtown Hall (c.1535-1603) m. Elizabeth ferch Rhys, and had
A12) Bridget Price (c.1560-1630) m. Lewis Blayney of Gregynog Hall (c.1550-1601), and had
A13) Robert Blayney of Castleblayney (c.1590-1625) m. Elizabeth Blount, and had two daus A14 & B14 (see below)
A14) Bridget Blayney (1625-1685) m. Robert Morgan of Cottlestown House, and had
A15) Hugh Morgan of Cottlestown House m. Penelope Fox, and had
A16) Marcus Anthony Morgan of Cottlestown House (c.1690-1752) m. Katherine Coote (see B17 below), and had
A17) Marcia Morgan (1734-1818) m. John Pitt of Encombe House

B14) Mary Blayney (b. 1623) m. 1) Lt-Col. Henry Gore (see D13 below), and had
B15) Frances Gore m. Sir Robert King, 1st Baronet of Boyle Abbey (see C15 below), and had
B16) Mary King (d. 1750) m. 1) Hon. Chidley Coote of Cootehall (see G15 below), and had
B17) Katherine Coote (d. 1738) m. Marcus Anthony Morgan of Cottlestown House (see A16 above)

C7) Thomas Cornewall of Burford (c.1431-aft.1472) m. Elizabeth Lenthall (d. 1489), and had
C8) Sir Edmund Cornewall of Burford (c.1450-1489) m. Margaret Horde (d. 1499), and had
C9) Anne Cornewall m. Peter Blount of Sodington Hall (c.1459-1527), and had
C10) Thomas Blount of Sodington Hall (d. 1562) m. 1) Katherine Stanford, and had
C11) Elizabeth Blount m. William Clifton of Barrington Court (d. 1564), and had
C12) Theophilia Clifton m. 1) Thomas Strode of Stoke under Hampton (c.1530-1595), and had
C13) Anne Strode (1582-1652) m. 1) Henry, 1st Baron Folliott of Ballyshannon (see E10 below), and had
C14) Hon. Frances Folliott (c.1600-1638) m. Sir Robert King of Boyle Abbey (see F12 below), and had
C15) Sir Robert King, 1st Baronet of Boyle Abbey (c.1625-1707) m. Frances Gore (see B15 above)

D4) Elizabeth Talbot (c.1355-1402) m. Henry, 5th Lord Grey of Wilton (c.1342-1396), and had
D5) Margaret Grey (c.1379-1454) m. 1) John, 5th Lord Darcy of Knaith (c.1377-1411), and had
D6) Philip, 6th Lord Darcy of Knaith (1397-1418) m. Eleanor Fitzhugh (c.1397-1457), and had
D7) Margery Darcy (1418-1469) m. Sir John Conyers of Hornby Castle (c.1412-1490), and had
D8) Margery Conyers m. Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (d. 1493), and had
D9) John Place of Halnaby Hall (b. 1469) m. 2) Katherine Surtees (b. 1485), and had
D10) Dorothy Place m. William Wycliffe of Wycliffe Hall (c.1510-1584), and had
D11) Francis Wycliffe of Wycliffe Hall (c.1535-1594) m. Jane Rokeby, and had
D12) Isabella Wycliffe m. Sir Paul Gore, 1st Baronet of Magherabegg (1567-1629), and had
D13) Lt-Col. Henry Gore (d. 1651) m. Mary Blayney (see B14 above)

E2) William de Bohun, 1st Earl of Northampton (c.1309-1360) m. Elizabeth Badlesmere, and had
E3) Lady Elizabeth de Bohun (c.1344-1385) m. Richard Fitzalan, 4th Earl of Arundel (1346-1397), and had
E4) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (c.1370-1425) m. 2) Thomas Mowbray, 1st Duke of Norfolk (see N4 below), and had
E5) Lady Isabel Mowbray (c.1396-1452) m. 2) James, 1st Lord Berkeley (see L5 below), and had
E6) Maurice, 3rd Lord Berkeley (c.1433-1506) m. Isabel Meade (1444-1514), and had
E7) Anne Berkeley m. Sir William Dennys of Dyrham (c.1470-1533), and had
E8) Eleanor Dennys (d. by 1586) m. William Lygon of Madresfield Court (see H11 below), and had
E9) Katherine Lygon (d. 1620) m. Thomas Foliot of Pirton Court (d. 1617), and had
E10) Henry, 1st Baron Folliott of Ballyshannon (1569-1622) m. Anne Strode (see C13 above)

F2) Lady Margaret de Bohun (1311-1391) m. Hugh Courtenay, 2nd Earl of Devon, and had
F3) Sir Edward Courtenay (c.1332-c.1370) m. Emmeline Dauney (1327-1371), and had
F4) Sir Hugh Courtenay of Haccombe (c.1360-1425) m. 3) Philippa Arcedekne (1386-by 1416), and had
F5) Joan Courtenay (1411-1465) m. 1) Sir Nicholas Carew of Mohun Ottery (see J7 below), and had
F6) Thomas Carew of Mohun Ottery (c.1427-1461) m. Joan Carminow (1427-1502), and had
F7) Nicholas Carew of Mohun Ottery (c.1446-1470) m. Margery Dinham (d. 1471), and had
F8) Sir Edmund Carew of Mohun Ottery (c.1464-1513) m. Katherine Huddesfield, and had
F9) Rev. George Carew, Dean of Exeter (1498-1583) m. Anne Hervey (c.1530-1605), and had
F10) Elizabeth Carew m. Robert Drury of Leighlin (see M11 below), and had
F11) Katherine Drury (d. 1617) m. Sir John King of Boyle Abbey (c.1560-1637), and had
F12) Sir Robert King of Boyle Abbey (c.1595-1657) m. 1) Hon. Frances Folliott (see C14 above)

G1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester (1272-1307), who had three daus G2, I2 & M2 (see below)
G2) Lady Margaret de Clare (1293-1342), who had
G3) Lady Margaret Audley (c.1321-1349) m. Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford, and had a son G4 & a dau H4 (see below)
G4) Hugh, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Lady Philippa Beauchamp, and had
G5) Lady Margaret Stafford (c.1365-1396) m. Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland (c.1364-1425), and had
G6) Lady Margaret Neville (1396-1465) m. 1) Richard, 3rd Lord Scrope of Bolton (d. 1420), and had
G7) Henry, 4th Lord Scrope of Bolton (1418-1459) m. Elizabeth Scrope, and had
G8) Elizabeth Scrope (c.1438-1503) m. 3) Oliver St John of Lydiard Tregoze (d. 1497), and had
G9) John St John of Lydiard Tregoze (1477-1512) m. Joan Iwardby (d. 1553), and had
G10) John St John of Lydiard Tregoze (1505-1576) m. 1) Margaret Carew (see O10 below), and had
G11) Nicholas St John of Lydiard Tregoze (c.1526-1589) m. Elizabeth Blount (d. 1587), and had
G12) Elizabeth St John m. Sir Richard St George of High Holborn (c.1555-1635), and had
G13) Sir George St George of Carrick Drumrusk (1583-1660) m. Katherine Gifford (see P13 below), and had
G14) Mary St George (c.1623-1701) m. Richard, 1st Baron Coote of Coloony (1620-1683), and had
G15) Hon. Chidley Coote of Cootehall (c.1656-1719) m. 2) Mary King (see B16 above)

H4) Lady Elizabeth Stafford (1336-1375) m. 2) John, 4th Lord Ferrers of Chartley (1331-1367), and had
H5) Robert, 5th Lord Ferrers of Chartley (1357-1413) m. 2) Margaret Despenser (see I5 below), and had
H6) Edmund, 6th Lord Ferrers of Chartley (c.1386-1435) m. Ellen Roche, and had
H7) Margaret Ferrers (c.1417-1487) m. John, 1st Lord Beauchamp of Powick (c.1400-1475), and had
H8) Richard, 2nd Lord Beauchamp of Powick (by 1435-1503) m. Elizabeth Stafford, and had
H9) Anne Beauchamp (by 1472-1534) m. Sir Richard Lygon of Madresfield Court (c.1471-1512), and had
H10) Sir Richard Lygon of Madresfield Court (1490-1556) m. Margaret Greville (d. 1542), and had
H11) William Lygon of Madresfield Court (1512-1567) m. Eleanor Dennys (see E8 above)

I2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337), who had a son I3 and two daus J3 & L3 (see below)
I3) Sir Edward Despenser (c.1311-1342) m. Anne Ferrers, and had
I4) Edward, 4th Lord Despenser (1336-1375) m. Elizabeth Burghersh, and had
I5) Margaret Despenser (c.1368-1415) m. Robert, 5th Lord Ferrers of Chartley (see H5 above)

J3) Isabel Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356) m. Richard Fitzalan, 3rd Earl of Arundel (c.1314-1376), and had
J4) Sir Edmund Arundel of Bignor (1327-c.1381) m. Lady Sybil Montagu, and had
J5) Elizabeth Arundel (c.1350-1385) m. 1) Sir Leonard Carew of Mohun Ottery (1342-1369), and had
J6) Sir Thomas Carew of Mohun Ottery (1368-1431) m. Elizabeth Bonville (c.1376-1451), and had
J7) Sir Nicholas Carew of Mohun Ottery (1408-1448) m. Joan Courtenay (see F5 above)

L3) Elizabeth Despenser (1325-1389) m. 1) Maurice, 4th Lord Berkeley (1330-1368), and had
L4) Sir James Berkeley of Raglan Castle (c.1355-1405) m. Elizabeth Bluett (c.1354-1420), and had
L5) James, 1st Lord Berkeley (c.1394-1463) m. 2) Lady Isabel Mowbray (see E5 above)

M2) Lady Elizabeth de Clare (1295-1360), who had
M3) Elizabeth Damory (1318-by 1362) m. John, 3rd Lord Bardolf (1313-1363), and had
M4) William, 4th Lord Bardolf (1349-1386) m. Agnes Poynings (c.1351-1403), and had
M5) Cecily Bardolf (c.1382-1432) m. Sir Brian Stapleton of Ingham (c.1379-1438), and had
M6) Sir Miles Stapleton of Ingham (c.1407-1466) m. 2) Katherine de la Pole (c.1416-1488), and had
M7) Elizabeth Stapleton (1441-1505) m. 1) Sir William Calthorpe of Burnham Thorpe (1410-1494), and had
M8) Anne Calthorpe m. Sir Robert Drury of Hawstead Hall (c.1456-1535), and had
M9) Sir Robert Drury of Hedgerley (c.1503-1577) m. Elizabeth Brudenell, and had
M10) Edmund Drury of Horton m. Jane Trenchard, and had
M11) Robert Drury of Leighlin m. Elizabeth Carew (see F10 above)

N1) Thomas of Brotherton, 1st Earl of Norfolk (1300-1338), who had
N2) Margaret of Brotherton, 1st Duchess of Norfolk (c.1322-1399), who had
N3) Elizabeth de Segrave (1338-1366) m. John, 4th Lord Mowbray (1340-1368), and had a son N4 and a dau O4 (see below)
N4) Thomas Mowbray, 1st Duke of Norfolk (1366-1399) m. 2) Lady Elizabeth Fitzalan (see E4 above)

O4) Eleanor Mowbray m. John, 5th Lord Welles (1352-1421), and had a son O5 and a dau P5 (see below)
O5) Sir Eudo Welles (c.1380-aft.1407) m. Maud Greystoke, and had
O6) Leo, 6th Lord Welles (1406-1461) m. 1) Joan Waterton, and had
O7) Eleanor Welles m. 1) Thomas, 1st Lord Hoo (c.1398-1455), and had
O8) Eleanor Hoo m. James Carew of Beddington (d. 1492), and had
O9) Sir Richard Carew of Beddington (1470-1520) m. Malyn Oxenbridge (d. 1544), and had
O10) Margaret Carew (c.1508-by 1535) m. John St John of Lydiard Tregoze (see G10 above)

P5) Eleanor Welles m. 1) Sir Hugh Poynings (c.1377-1426), and had
P6) Constance Poynings (1409-1442) m. 1) Sir John Paulet of Nunney Castle (d. 1437), and had
P7) John Paulet of Basing House (1428-1492) m. Eleanor Roos (1432-1509), and had
P8) Sir John Paulet of Basing House (c.1460-1525) m. Alice Paulet, and had
P9) Eleanor Paulet m. Sir William Gifford of Itchell (d. 1549), and had
P10) Richard Gifford of Kings Somborne (c.1499-1568) m. Anne Goring (d. 1594), and had
P11) John Gifford of Bentley (d. 1576) m. Elizabeth Brabazon, and had
P12) Sir Richard Gifford of Castle Jordan (d. 1598) m. Mary Duke, and had
P13) Katherine Gifford m. Sir George St George of Carrick Drumrusk (see G13 above)

> This Robert Morgan of Cottlestown was the first of the family to settle in Ireland. According to early editions of Burke's LG and at least two other sources (Bradney's Monmouthshire and G. T. Clark's Limbus Patrum Morganiae), he was a younger son of Sir Thomas Morgan of Pencoed by his wife Cecily, daughter of Sir George Herbert of Swansea. Through Cecily a few more Edward I descents could be added to this line. But the chronology is difficult here - at least one and probably two more generations are needed between Sir Thomas Morgan and Robert Morgan of Cottlestown for the line to work.

I haven't further identified Robert Morgan of Cottlestown.

Cheers, ------Brad

[John Higgins]

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 2:10:38 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:

>
> Edward III had sons A1, B1 & C1 (see below)
> A1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1397), who had
> A2) John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset (1373-1410) m. Lady Margaret Holland (1383-1439, descended from Edward I), and had
> A3) Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset (1406-1455) m. Lady Eleanor Beauchamp (1408-1467, descended from Edward I), and had
> A4) Lady Margaret Beaufort (c.1437-1474) m. 2) Sir Richard Darrell of Littlecote (c.1420-1489), and had
> A5) Margaret Darrell (c.1464-by 1488) m. James Tuchet, 7th Lord Audley (c.1463-1497, descended from Edward I), and had
> A6) John Tuchet, 8th Lord Audley (c.1485-1557) m. Mary Griffin, and had
> A7) George Tuchet, 9th Lord Audley (d. 1560) m. 1) Isabel Tuke (d. 1554), and had
> A8) Henry Tuchet, 10th Lord Audley (d. 1563) m. Elizabeth Sneyd (c.1530-1609), and had
> A9) George Tuchet, 1st Earl of Castlehaven (c.1555-1617) m. 1) Lucy Mervyn (d. 1610), and had
> A10) Lady Elizabeth Tuchet (c.1582-1662) m. 1) Sir John Stawell of Stawell (d. 1604, descended from Edward I), and had
> A11) Katherine Stawell (c.1603-1633) m. Angel Grey of Kingston Maurward House (1602-1670, descended from Edward I), and had
> A12) Audley Grey of Kingston Maurward House (c.1630-1675) m. Margaret Trevelyan (see B12 below), and had
> A13) Lora Grey (1675-1750) m. George Pitt

I believe there is another Edward III descent here, starting from Cardinal Henry Beaufort, the son of John of Gaunt who is A2 above:
1. Cardinal Henry Beaufort; (unm.)
2. Joan Beaufort (b. ca. 1391/2); m. Sir Edward Stradling (d. ca. 1453)
3. Sir Henry Stradling of St. Donat's (d. 1476); m. before 1449 Elizabeth [ap Thomas] Herbert
4. Jane Stradling; m. Miles ap Harri Ddû ap Gruffudd ap Harri of Poston
5. Catherine Parry [Catrin ferch Milo ap Harry] of Newcourt; m. (his 2nd) Sir Walter Baskerville of Eardisley (b. before 1459, d. 5.IX.1508)
6. Philip Baskerville of Sherborne, Dorset; m. Elizabeth [or Agnes] Hamlyn of Wiltshire
7. Jane Baskerville; m. (2) (his 1st) Sir John Mervyn of Fonthill Gifford (d. 18/9.VI.1566)
8. Sir James Mervyn of Fonthill Gifford (1529-1.V.1611); m. (1) (her 2nd) Amy Clarke
9. Lucy Mervyn (d. [vp] by IV.1610); m. by 28.VIII.1584 (his 1st) George Tuchet, 1st Earl of Castlehaven [A9 above]

[Brad Verity]

Dear John,

Thank you for pointing out this line - my comments are interspersed.

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 11:37:18 AM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> I believe there is another Edward III descent here, starting from Cardinal Henry Beaufort, the son of John of Gaunt who is A2 above:
> 1. Cardinal Henry Beaufort; (unm.)
> 2. Joan Beaufort (b. ca. 1391/2); m. Sir Edward Stradling (d. ca. 1453)
> 3. Sir Henry Stradling of St. Donat's (d. 1476); m. before 1449 Elizabeth [ap Thomas] Herbert
> 4. Jane Stradling; m. Miles ap Harri Ddû ap Gruffudd ap Harri of Poston

Jane Stradling would appear to have been the eldest child of her parents, and so the daughter who was with them when they were kidnapped by pirates crossing the Bristol Channel in 1449 (reality is better than fiction - you just can't make this stuff up). Sir Henry Stradling's marriage to Elizabeth ap Thomas was arranged before the death of his grandfather Cardinal Beaufort in 1447. I have Jane Stradling as born about 1447. Her husband Miles ap Harry (anglicized to Parry) of Newcourt died in 1488.

I don't have any children for the couple except their son and heir Harry Parry of Newcourt (d. aft.1512). No doubt there were more than him - is there a Bartrum pedigree for the Parrys of Newcourt available online?

> 5. Catherine Parry [Catrin ferch Milo ap Harry] of Newcourt; m. (his 2nd) Sir Walter Baskerville of Eardisley (b. before 1459, d. 5.IX.1508)

Even if Catrin was the firstborn child of her parents, she couldn't have been born earlier than 1465, given her mother's age.

> 6. Philip Baskerville of Sherborne, Dorset; m. Elizabeth [or Agnes] Hamlyn of Wiltshire

There is a detailed WikiTree profile on this Philip Baskerville.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Baskerville-112

It points out that the Baskerville pedigree in the 1569 Visitation of Herefordshire makes Philip the son of Sir James Baskerville and Sybil Devereux (and so the younger brother of the Sir Walter Baskerville who married Catrin Parry, great-granddaughter of Cardinal Beaufort).
https://archive.org/details/visitationofhere00cookrich/page/6

Note also that the 1569 Visitation only mentions one wife for Sir Walter Baskerville, by whom he had four sons and a daughter. Sir Walter's third son Philip was knighted, according to the Visitation pedigree.

Apparently it was Rev. Charles J. Robinson in his 1873 'A History of the Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire' who made Philip Baskerville of Sherborne the son of Sir Walter Baskerville and 2nd wife Catrin Parry.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044010403004&view=1up&seq=134

> 7. Jane Baskerville; m. (2) (his 1st) Sir John Mervyn of Fonthill Gifford (d. 18/9.VI.1566)

Per the HOP entry for Sir John Mervyn, his first wife Jane Baskerville was the widow of William Peverell of Bradford Peverell.
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/marvyn-sir-john-1503-66

Jane had a daughter and heiress with her first husband William Peverell: Jane Peverell, who married 1st Nicholas Meggs of Downham, and 2nd Roger Churchill of Catherstone.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=IOvgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA87&dq=Jane+Baskerville+Peverell+Mervyn&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil-_PJlNPiAhXVvJ4KHbz7DRwQ6AEIPzAE#v=onepage&q=Jane%20Baskerville%20Peverell%20Mervyn&f=false

I cannot find dates for Jane (Baskerville) (Peverell) Mervyn, but given that she was of childbearing age during her first marriage, she cannot have been born later than 1505.

So now we have a very tight chronology: Catrin Parry, born no earlier than 1465, as a grandmother of Jane Baskerville born no later than 1505.

My guess is that the Herefordshire Visitation of 1569, and not Rev. Robinson in 1873, was correct: Philip Baskerville of Sherborne was the son of Sir James Baskerville and Sybil Devereux, and not the son of Sir Walter Baskerville and 2nd wife Catrin Parry.

> 8. Sir James Mervyn of Fonthill Gifford (1529-1.V.1611); m. (1) (her 2nd) Amy Clarke
> 9. Lucy Mervyn (d. [vp] by IV.1610); m. by 28.VIII.1584 (his 1st) George Tuchet, 1st Earl of Castlehaven [A9 above]

Cheers, ------Brad

[leslie...@gmail.com]

Here are more royal descents for Muriel (Fletcher) Wright, including
at least one descent from Edward III.

These descents are through two Betenson sisters, Albinia & Theodosia,
great-grandmothers of Thomas Townsend, 1st Viscount Sydney, 1733-1800:


http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005314&tree=LEO


Albinia & Theodosia's father, Richard Betenson, was the son of
Richard Bettenson of Wimbledon, Surrey, 1st Baronet, died 1679,
and his wife Anne Monins, died 1681:

https://books.google.com/books?id=FchKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA277&dq=richard+betenson+anne+monins&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyx_7y39PiAhVcPn0KHdSDCysQ6AEIQDAD#v=onepage&q=richard%20betenson%20anne%20monins&f=false


The Bettenson family is also recorded in the Herald's Visitation of Essex:

https://books.google.com/books?id=8vsUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA550&dq=richard+bettenson+tuke&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjo16-T4dPiAhUPITQIHY9FB5YQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=richard%20bettenson%20tuke&f=false


Anne was the daughter of William Monins, 1st Baronet, and his second wife
Jane Twisden.

https://books.google.com/books?id=3MxKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA77&dq=william+monins+baronet+1611&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj82e3U4NPiAhURHDQIHev-B4EQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=william%20monins%20baronet%201611&f=false


Jane Twisden, wife of William Monins, is a descendant of Edward III
through Thomas Brooke, 8th Lord Cobham:

http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00361507&tree=LEO


Leslie

[John Higgins]

Thanks for your comments, Brad. I agree that there is uncertainty about whether Philip Baskerville, whose daughter Jane married Sir John Mervyn, was the brother or the son of Sir Walter Baskerville of Eardisley. I've checked three pedigrees of the family: the 1569 Herefordshire visitation, Rev. Robinson's 1873 work, and the Baskerville table in Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (I have a downloaded copy of that table). None of the three is completely comprehensive, but I felt at the time that the 1569 visitation pedigree was the least reliable - primarily because it had omitted the important fact of the 2nd marriage of Sir Walter Baskerville, which is documented in both of the other sources.

Both the 1569 visitation and Bartrum indicate that Sir Walter Baskerville had both a brother and a son named Philip (with the son Philip being in both cases by the 2nd wife Catherine Parry [Catrin ferch Milo ap Harry]). Bartrum, however, does not carry forward the line of either Philip, also he seems to indicate that Philip the brother had descendants while Philip the son did not. OTOH Baskerville pedigrees in the 1898 Bukre's LG (the latest edition online AFAIK) indicate that both Philip the brother and Philip the son had descendnats (although they don't mention Jane who married Sir John Mervyn).

Rev. Robinson does not mention a brother Philip - only a son Philip to whom he assigns Jane who married Sir John Mervyn. After this discussion - and particularly your argument on the chronology - I'm inclined to believe that Robinson merged Philip the brother with Philip the son and thus moved Jane to a different father. Correcting this likely mistake means, of course, that Jane's descent from Cardinal Henry Beaufort goes away.

With respect to Catherine Parry, the 2nd wife of Sir Walter Baskerville, the notes in my files (and the reference in the Baskerville table in Bartrum) indicate that she and her family appear in Bartrum table Drymbenog 12(B2). The Cadair website hosting the Bartrum genealogies is presently unavailable, but I'll try to provide a link when it becomes available again.

[John Higgins]

FWIW here are links to the Bartrum tables relevant to this discussion.

Baskerville: https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/6171/BASKERVILLE_56.png?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Parry of Newcourt pt. 1: https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5083/DRYMBENOG%2012%28B1%29_485.png?sequence=3&isAllowed=y

Parry of Newcourt pt. 2: https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5083/DRYMBENOG%2012%28B2%29_486.png?sequence=2&isAllowed=y

Stradling: https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/6508/STRADLING%202_1622.png?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

[John Higgins]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 1:46:07 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:

>
> D4) Elizabeth Talbot (c.1355-1402) m. Henry, 5th Lord Grey of Wilton (c.1342-1396), and had
> D5) Margaret Grey (c.1379-1454) m. 1) John, 5th Lord Darcy of Knaith (c.1377-1411), and had
> D6) Philip, 6th Lord Darcy of Knaith (1397-1418) m. Eleanor Fitzhugh (c.1397-1457), and had
> D7) Margery Darcy (1418-1469) m. Sir John Conyers of Hornby Castle (c.1412-1490), and had
> D8) Margery Conyers m. Roland Place of Halnaby Hall (d. 1493), and had
> D9) John Place of Halnaby Hall (b. 1469) m. 2) Katherine Surtees (b. 1485), and had
> D10) Dorothy Place m. William Wycliffe of Wycliffe Hall (c.1510-1584), and had
> D11) Francis Wycliffe of Wycliffe Hall (c.1535-1594) m. Jane Rokeby, and had
> D12) Isabella Wycliffe m. Sir Paul Gore, 1st Baronet of Magherabegg (1567-1629), and had
> D13) Lt-Col. Henry Gore (d. 1651) m. Mary Blayney (see B14 above)
>

A question on descent D above, specifically on generations D11 and D12:

What is the evidence that confirms that Francis Wycliffe whose daughter Isabella married Sir Paul Gore was the same Francis Wycliffe of Wycliffe (d. 1594) who married Jane Rokeby? A visitation pedigree for Wycliffe of Wycliffe (Foster ed. of Yorkshire Visitations) does not list a daughter Isabella for Francis Wycliffe and Jane Rokeby, nor does a detailed pedigree of the Wycliffe family in Thomas Dunham Whitaker's History of Richmondshire (1823), 1:201 (available at the Internet Archive).

Francis Wycliffe of Wycliffe was a prominent Catholic recusant in Yorkshire (and imprisoned for it), while Sir Paul Gore was from a prominent Protestant family London and and had relocated to Ireland at least several years before he married. A marriage between these two families seems both geographically and socially (or religiously) unlikely.

OTOH the Wycliffe pedigrees in both Foster and Whitaker mentioned above, take note of, but do not give details on, a branch of "Wycliffes of London" descended from a younger brother Roger of Francis's grandfather John Wycliffe. A Francis from this branch (if one were to be found) might be a more likely father for the wife of Sir Paul Gore.

At the moment, and barring further evidence, this presently looks like a case of "the name's the same".

BTW the article on the Gore baronets in the latest edition of BP says that Sir Paul Gore's wife Isabella Wycliffe was a niece of Sir Thomas Strafford, Earl of Strafford. This identification apparently goes all the way back to a statement in Lodge's Peerage of Ireland (1789), which the CB bio of Sir Paul Gore notes and dismisses as "untrustworthy".

PS: I'm still working on the rest of your very long list of Edward I descents for Marcia Morgan (Pitt). I think I can add one or two more.

[mlmor...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:55:22 PM UTC-4, Brad Verity wrote:

> B1) Lionel of Antwerp, 1st Duke of Clarence (1338-1368), who had
> B2) Philippa Plantagenet, 5th Countess of Ulster (1355-1377), who had
> B3) Lady Elizabeth Mortimer (1371-1417) m. 1) Sir Henry ‘Hotspur’ Percy (1364-1403), and had
> B4) Lady Elizabeth Percy (c.1395-1436) m. 1) John, 7th Lord Clifford (1388-1422, descended from Edward I), and had

> B5) Thomas, 8th Lord Clifford (1414-1455) m. Joan Dacre (c.1417-c.1452, descended from Edward I), and had
> B6) John, 9th Lord Clifford (1435-1461) m. Margaret Bromflete (c.1436-1493), and had

> B7) Henry, 10th Lord Clifford (1454-1523) m. 1) Anne St John (c.1468-1508), and had
> B8) Anne Clifford (c.1496-bef.1546) m. 1) Robert Clifton of Clifton Hall (by 1487-1517), and had
> B9) Dorothy Clifton (b. 1517) m. Christopher Pickering of Cleasby (c.1515-by 1567, descended from Edward I), and had
> B10) Winifred Pickering (c.1550-1589) m. Henry Crackenthorpe of Newbiggin Hall (c.1550-1593), and had
> B11) Barbara Crackenthorpe (b. 1582) m. Sir Richard Fletcher of Hutton le Forest (d. 1637), and had
> B12) Mary Fletcher (c.1608-1648) m. Sir John Lowther, 1st Baronet of Lowther (1606-1675, descended from Edward III), and had
> B13) Eleanor Lowther (1633-1714) m. Sir Christopher Wandesford, 1st Baronet of Kirklington (see A12 above)
>

I am interested in the entry B9 above
B9) Dorothy Clifton (b. 1517) m. Christopher Pickering of Cleasby (c.1515-by 1567, descended from Edward I), and had
B10) Winifred Pickering (c.1550-1589) m. Henry Crackenthorpe of Newbiggin Hall (c.1550-1593),

I presume the Clifton/Pickering marriage was taken from genealogics.org, but, checking the sources listed there, I find the only source for the marriage seems to be the Visitations of the County of Nottingham 1569 and 1614 p. 17-18
https://archive.org/details/visitationscoun01britgoog/page/n30

In that pedigree, Dorothy Clifton's husband is listed as Christopher Pickering of Crosby and Crandon. The presumption seems to be that he is the same person as Christopher Pickering of Cleasby. (I have not identified Crosby and Crandon.) Presuming Dorothy Clifton's husband was of Cleasby, is there any primary source that names her as the mother of Winifred?

The Will of Christopher Pickering of Cleasby is printed in Wills and Inventories from the Registry of the Archdeaconry of Richmond... Pulbications of the Surtees Society, Vol. 26 (1853), pp. 34-5 (available at hathitrust.org.) In the Will, Christopher refers to his son Christopher and daughters Winifred and Mary, his deceased first wife and his current wife, who he asks to be "as a naturall mother" to his daughters. That wording leads me to believe that the daughters were by the first wife. The name of neither wife is given, so if he was married to Dorothy Clifton, was she the first or second wife?

The Will as printed does not have a date, but the volume index lists it as 1543. I am wondering if that date could be incorrect. "Crackenthorp of Newbiggin", Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society.33:60-62, cites the IPM of William Pickering (d. 1587). His heir is Christopher Pickering, son and heir of Christopher Pickering deceased, the son of William and his wife Winifred. Christopher the heir is said to be over 30, but he would have been considerably older if his father died in 1543. Winifred would also have to have been born before 1543. She is listed as an executor, so she must have been of age, but her first child was born in 1576.

I have a second question also. Christopher Pickering of Cleasby is said in B9 to be a descendant of Edward I. Does anyone know how he descended?

Thanks,
Mary Morgan

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 7:09:20 PM UTC-7, leslie...@gmail.com wrote:
> Here are more royal descents for Muriel (Fletcher) Wright, including
> at least one descent from Edward III.
> These descents are through two Betenson sisters, Albinia & Theodosia,
> great-grandmothers of Thomas Townsend, 1st Viscount Sydney, 1733-1800:
> http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005314&tree=LEO
> Albinia & Theodosia's father, Richard Betenson, was the son of
> Richard Bettenson of Wimbledon, Surrey, 1st Baronet, died 1679,
> and his wife Anne Monins, died 1681:

Thank you for sharing the Edward III descent for Richard Betenson to Genealogics, Leslie. The line looks very solid. I hadn't noticed that Genealogics was missing it - a nice addition for the database.

On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 1:08:46 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> FWIW here are links to the Bartrum tables relevant to this discussion.

Many thanks for the Bartrum tables, John! The Parry of Newcourt one has already proved useful to me. I had Elizabeth Parry, wife of Thomas Vaughan of Tregunter, and mother of John Vaughan of Sutton-on-Derwent (by 1512-1577), in my database with no parents. Thanks to Bartrum's Parry pedigree, I now see that Elizabeth was the daughter of Harry Parry of Newcourt and Alice Melbourne. So this gives the Vaughans of Sutton-on-Derwent a descent from Cardinal Beaufort/Edward III - very cool!

Elizabeth (Parry) Vaughan is ancestress to many, including the Vaughan Earls of Lisburne, Palk Barons Haldon, and, I believe, Princess Diana.

The pedigree says that Elizabeth's husband was Thomas "ap Roger" Vaughan. Do you happen to know who were Thomas's parents?

On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 2:03:23 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> > D10) Dorothy Place m. William Wycliffe of Wycliffe Hall (c.1510-1584), and had
> > D11) Francis Wycliffe of Wycliffe Hall (c.1535-1594) m. Jane Rokeby, and had
> > D12) Isabella Wycliffe m. Sir Paul Gore, 1st Baronet of Magherabegg (1567-1629), and had
> > D13) Lt-Col. Henry Gore (d. 1651) m. Mary Blayney (see B14 above)
>
> A question on descent D above, specifically on generations D11 and D12:
> What is the evidence that confirms that Francis Wycliffe whose daughter Isabella married Sir Paul Gore was the same Francis Wycliffe of Wycliffe (d. 1594) who married Jane Rokeby?

I don't have any confirming evidence - I hadn't looked at those generations in any detail.

> A visitation pedigree for Wycliffe of Wycliffe (Foster ed. of Yorkshire Visitations) does not list a daughter Isabella for Francis Wycliffe and Jane Rokeby, nor does a detailed pedigree of the Wycliffe family in Thomas Dunham Whitaker's History of Richmondshire (1823), 1:201 (available at the Internet Archive).

The Wycliffe pedigrees in both Foster and Whitaker give Francis Wycliffe a daughter "Elizabeth" - do we know what happened to her?
https://archive.org/details/dugdalesvisitati2dugd/page/354
https://archive.org/details/historyofrichmon12whit/page/n269

> Francis Wycliffe of Wycliffe was a prominent Catholic recusant in Yorkshire (and imprisoned for it), while Sir Paul Gore was from a prominent Protestant family London and and had relocated to Ireland at least several years before he married. A marriage between these two families seems both geographically and socially (or religiously) unlikely.

Agree.

> OTOH the Wycliffe pedigrees in both Foster and Whitaker mentioned above, take note of, but do not give details on, a branch of "Wycliffes of London" descended from a younger brother Roger of Francis's grandfather John Wycliffe. A Francis from this branch (if one were to be found) might be a more likely father for the wife of Sir Paul Gore.

The Wycliffe pedigree in Whitaker mentions another Francis Wycliffe, the son of John Wycliffe and Mabel Rokeby of Morton, who was first cousin to Francis Wycliffe of Wycliffe (c.1535-1594). Perhaps he was Isabella Gore's father.

> At the moment, and barring further evidence, this presently looks like a case of "the name's the same".

OK.

> BTW the article on the Gore baronets in the latest edition of BP says that Sir Paul Gore's wife Isabella Wycliffe was a niece of Sir Thomas Strafford, Earl of Strafford. This identification apparently goes all the way back to a statement in Lodge's Peerage of Ireland (1789), which the CB bio of Sir Paul Gore notes and dismisses as "untrustworthy".

Lodge states, "He married Isabella, daughter of Francis Wickliffe, niece to Sir Thomas Wentworth, after Lord deputy of Ireland and Earl of Strafford."
https://archive.org/details/peerageofireland03lodg/page/278

Cokayne: "The statement [by Lodge], however, appears to be untrustworthy." Presumably because no relationship between the Wentworths of Woodhouse with the Wycliffes is apparent. But it would be nice if Cokayne explained why he considered it untrustworthy.
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924092524374#page/n255/mode/2up

Cokayne mentions there is a funeral certificate for Sir Paul Gore. If that could be located, it would be very helpful, as it would be evidence from 1629 as to how the Irish heralds reported the parentage of Gore's wife Isabella.

> PS: I'm still working on the rest of your very long list of Edward I descents for Marcia Morgan (Pitt). I think I can add one or two more.

Great - thank you!

On Saturday, June 8, 2019 at 2:39:54 PM UTC-7, mlmor...@gmail.com wrote:
> I am interested in the entry B9 above
> B9) Dorothy Clifton (b. 1517) m. Christopher Pickering of Cleasby (c.1515-by 1567, descended from Edward I), and had
> B10) Winifred Pickering (c.1550-1589) m. Henry Crackenthorpe of Newbiggin Hall (c.1550-1593),
> I presume the Clifton/Pickering marriage was taken from genealogics.org, but, checking the sources listed there, I find the only source for the marriage seems to be the Visitations of the County of Nottingham 1569 and 1614 p. 17-18
> https://archive.org/details/visitationscoun01britgoog/page/n30
> In that pedigree, Dorothy Clifton's husband is listed as Christopher Pickering of Crosby and Crandon. The presumption seems to be that he is the same person as Christopher Pickering of Cleasby. (I have not identified Crosby and Crandon.) Presuming Dorothy Clifton's husband was of Cleasby, is there any primary source that names her as the mother of Winifred?

Dear Mary,

Crosby is Crosby Ravensworth in Westmorland.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/n-westmorland-records/vol8/pp302-324#h3-0011

I don't know about Crandon.

I'm not aware of any source for the marriage of Christopher Pickering and Dorothy Clifton outside of the Clifton pedigree in the Nottinghamshire Visitation.

> The Will of Christopher Pickering of Cleasby is printed in Wills and Inventories from the Registry of the Archdeaconry of Richmond... Pulbications of the Surtees Society, Vol. 26 (1853), pp. 34-5 (available at hathitrust.org.) In the Will, Christopher refers to his son Christopher and daughters Winifred and Mary, his deceased first wife and his current wife, who he asks to be "as a naturall mother" to his daughters. That wording leads me to believe that the daughters were by the first wife. The name of neither wife is given, so if he was married to Dorothy Clifton, was she the first or second wife?

Christopher Pickering's will:
https://archive.org/details/willsinventories00richrich/page/34

Dorothy Clifton must've been his first wife and the mother of his daughters. Among the papers of the Flemings of Rydal Hall is: "October 10, 1567. York.--The Queen and her Council to James Edward, clerk, and six others. Order to appear before Richard Dudley and other commissioners appointed to try the truth of the matters in variance between Winifred Pickering and Mary Pickering, plaintiffs, and Margaret Pickering, widow, defendant."
https://books.google.ca/books?id=0qsKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=Christopher+Pickering+of+Cleasby&source=bl&ots=B7KOYLbrrX&sig=ACfU3U0l-rN9hBb1qMIYDep7DqXd-eU9Iw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi2o8uhpd3iAhVErp4KHYd5C5oQ6AEwFXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Christopher%20Pickering%20of%20Cleasby&f=false

> The Will as printed does not have a date, but the volume index lists it as 1543. I am wondering if that date could be incorrect.

Among the Fleming of Rydal papers is another item: "November 28, 1567. An inventory of goods belonging to Christopher Pickering, of Cleasby. Includes table and diaper napkins, eighteen candlesticks, basins and lavers, spoons, &c."

Usually, an inventory of goods was taken shortly after the death. But Christopher Pickering may have died much earlier than 1567, which seems to be the year that his two daughters were old enough to bring a legal challenge to his estate. At least we know he was dead by 1567.

> "Crackenthorp of Newbiggin", Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Society.33:60-62, cites the IPM of William Pickering (d. 1587). His heir is Christopher Pickering, son and heir of Christopher Pickering deceased, the son of William and his wife Winifred.

Many thanks for pointing out this article on the Crackenthorpes, Mary. I've downloaded it. I had no death date of William Pickering of Threlkeld Hall, so it's very helpful to have his IPM quoted. William lived to a great age - he had to have been at least 90 when he died in 1587.

> Christopher the heir is said to be over 30, but he would have been considerably older if his father died in 1543. Winifred would also have to have been born before 1543. She is listed as an executor, so she must have been of age, but her first child was born in 1576.

Per the Crackenthorpe article, "The monument of Sir Christopher Pickering at Ormside gives his age as 'in his 76th year,' so that was well over 30 at the death of his grandfather, who was himself a very old man." Sir Christopher died 15 January 1620/1, so would turn age 76 in 1621, so born 1545/6. If accurate, the elder Christopher Pickering couldn't have died in 1543 - Rev. Raine must've mis-dated his will.

> I have a second question also. Christopher Pickering of Cleasby is said in B9 to be a descendant of Edward I. Does anyone know how he descended?

There are two Edward I lines of descent that I have for Christopher Pickering of Cleasby. Here is one of them.
Edward I had a dau A1 & a son B1 (see below):
A1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester (1272-1307), who had
A2) Lady Margaret de Clare (1293-1342), who had
A3) Lady Margaret Audley (c.1321-1349) m. Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford, and had
A4) Hugh, 2nd Earl of Stafford (1341-1386) m. Lady Philippa Beauchamp, and had
A5) Lady Margaret Stafford (c.1365-1396) m. Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland, and had
A6) Lady Alice Neville m. 1) Sir Thomas Gray of Heaton Castle (see B5 below), and had
A7) Katherine Gray m. Robert Lascelles of Escrick (d. c.1461), and had
A8) Margaret Lascelles (d. 1499) m. 1) James Pickering of Killington Hall (d. by 1476), and had
A9) Sir James Pickering of Killington Hall (1454-1496) m. Anne Moresby (by 1469-1523), and had
A10) William Pickering of Threlkeld (c.1495-1587) m. Winifred Threlkeld, and had
A11) Christopher Pickering of Cleasby, Heir of Threlkeld (c.1515-by 1567) m. 1) Dorothy Clifton (b. 1517)

B1) Thomas of Brotherton, 1st Earl of Norfolk (1300-1338), who had
B2) Margaret of Brotherton, 1st Duchess of Norfolk (c.1322-1399), who had
B3) Elizabeth Segrave (1338-1366) m. John, 4th Lord Mowbray, and had
B4) Joan Mowbray (c.1363-1410) m. 1) Sir Thomas Gray of Heaton Castle (1359-1400), and had
B5) Sir Thomas Gray of Heaton Castle (1384-1415) m. Lady Alice Neville (see A6 above)

See some posts I made back in 2007 for more details on this line of descent, which is not definitively confirmed, but is very probable.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/Ql2T2Zz19M4/433emGd9HcYJ

Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad

[mlmor...@gmail.com]

> Dorothy Clifton must've been his first wife and the mother of his daughters. Among the papers of the Flemings of Rydal Hall is: "October 10, 1567. York.--The Queen and her Council to James Edward, clerk, and six others. Order to appear before Richard Dudley and other commissioners appointed to try the truth of the matters in variance between Winifred Pickering and Mary Pickering, plaintiffs, and Margaret Pickering, widow, defendant."
> https://books.google.ca/books?id=0qsKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=Christopher+Pickering+of+Cleasby&source=bl&ots=B7KOYLbrrX&sig=ACfU3U0l-rN9hBb1qMIYDep7DqXd-eU9Iw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi2o8uhpd3iAhVErp4KHYd5C5oQ6AEwFXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Christopher%20Pickering%20of%20Cleasby&f=false
>
> > The Will as printed does not have a date, but the volume index lists it as 1543. I am wondering if that date could be incorrect.
>
> Among the Fleming of Rydal papers is another item: "November 28, 1567. An inventory of goods belonging to Christopher Pickering, of Cleasby. Includes table and diaper napkins, eighteen candlesticks, basins and lavers, spoons, &c."
>
> Usually, an inventory of goods was taken shortly after the death. But Christopher Pickering may have died much earlier than 1567, which seems to be the year that his two daughters were old enough to bring a legal challenge to his estate. At least we know he was dead by 1567.
>

Thanks, Brad, for the information in the Fleming of Rydal Papers. I was not familiar with this source.
Mary

[John Higgins]

On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 2:44:38 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:

> On Friday, June 7, 2019 at 1:08:46 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> > FWIW here are links to the Bartrum tables relevant to this discussion.
>
> Many thanks for the Bartrum tables, John! The Parry of Newcourt one has already proved useful to me. I had Elizabeth Parry, wife of Thomas Vaughan of Tregunter, and mother of John Vaughan of Sutton-on-Derwent (by 1512-1577), in my database with no parents. Thanks to Bartrum's Parry pedigree, I now see that Elizabeth was the daughter of Harry Parry of Newcourt and Alice Melbourne. So this gives the Vaughans of Sutton-on-Derwent a descent from Cardinal Beaufort/Edward III - very cool!
>
> Elizabeth (Parry) Vaughan is ancestress to many, including the Vaughan Earls of Lisburne, Palk Barons Haldon, and, I believe, Princess Diana.
>
> The pedigree says that Elizabeth's husband was Thomas "ap Roger" Vaughan. Do you happen to know who were Thomas's parents?
>
>

> Thanks & Cheers, -----Brad

Elizabeth Parry's husband was Thomas Vaughan of Tregunter, whose ancestry is here in Genealogics:
https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00322452&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=7

Thomas Vaughan of Tregunter was son of Roger Vaughan of Porthaml by his wife Joan, daughter of Sir Robert Whitney by his 1st wife Constance Touchet. And, yes, there are Edward III and Edward I descents behind Constance Touchet. And you're correct that Thomas Vaughan and Elizabeth Parry are ancestral to Princess Diana.

This Vaughan family, in all of its many branches, is well covered in the Drymbenog 2 section of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, consisting of nearly 20 tables. Thomas Vaughan is in Drymbenog 2(3C) here:
https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5082/DRYMBENOG%20%202%28C3%29_463.png?sequence=14&isAllowed=y

The ancestry goes back through table Drymbenog 2(C1) here:
https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5082/DRYMBENOG%20%202%28C1%29_461.png?sequence=16&isAllowed=y
and thence to Drymbenog 2 here:
https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5082/Drymbenog%202.png?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

[Brad Verity]

On Tuesday, June 11, 2019 at 11:43:04 AM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> Elizabeth Parry's husband was Thomas Vaughan of Tregunter, whose ancestry is here in Genealogics:
> https://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00322452&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=7

> This Vaughan family, in all of its many branches, is well covered in the Drymbenog 2 section of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, consisting of nearly 20 tables. Thomas Vaughan is in Drymbenog 2(3C) here:
> https://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5082/DRYMBENOG%20%202%28C3%29_463.png?sequence=14&isAllowed=y

Thank you, John - I've downloaded Bartrum's Vaughan pedigrees.

Cheers, ----Brad

[John Higgins]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2019 at 1:46:07 AM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
>

> Edward I had two daus A1 & G1 and a son N1 (see below)
> A1) Elizabeth, Countess of Hereford (1282-1316), who had two daus A2 & F2 and a son E2 (see below)
> A2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond (1305-1338), and had
> A3) Lady Petronilla Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.1332-1387), and had a son A4 & a dau D4 (see below)
> A4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (by 1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange (by 1361-1413), and had
> A5) Alice Talbot (c.1393-1436) m. 1) Sir Thomas Barre (c.1390-by 1420), and had
> A6) Elizabeth Barre (c.1414-1468) m. Sir Edmund Cornewall Heir of Burford (c.1382-1435), and had a dau A7 & a son C7 (see below)
> A7) Eleanor Cornewall (c.1435-1519) m. 2) Sir Richard Croft of Croft Castle (1429-1509), and had
> A8) Sir Edward Croft of Croft Castle (1465-1541) m. Joyce Skull, and had
> A9) Margaret Croft m. John Aprice of Clun, and had
> A10) Joyce Price m. Matthew Price of Newtown Hall (d. c.1556), and had
> A11) John Price of Newtown Hall (c.1535-1603) m. Elizabeth ferch Rhys, and had
> A12) Bridget Price (c.1560-1630) m. Lewis Blayney of Gregynog Hall (c.1550-1601), and had
> A13) Robert Blayney of Castleblayney (c.1590-1625) m. Elizabeth Blount, and had two daus A14 & B14 (see below)
> A14) Bridget Blayney (1625-1685) m. Robert Morgan of Cottlestown House, and had
> A15) Hugh Morgan of Cottlestown House m. Penelope Fox, and had
> A16) Marcus Anthony Morgan of Cottlestown House (c.1690-1752) m. Katherine Coote (see B17 below), and had
> A17) Marcia Morgan (1734-1818) m. John Pitt of Encombe House

>

> Cheers, ------Brad

At A7 above Eleanor Cornewall and Sir Richard Croft also had a daughter through whom a descent (here labeled Q) can be traced to Marcia Morgan, wife of John Pitt of Encombe:

Q8) Anne Croft (d. 1549) m. Sir Thomas Blount of Kinlet (ca. 1451-1524)
Q9) Edward Blount of Kidderminster (d. 1559) m. Margaret Garneys
Q10) Capt. Christopher Blount m. (her 2nd of 4) Elizabeth Clifford [see Note 1 below]
Q11) Capt. George Blount of Kidderminster and later of Donasse, Co. Clare m. (her 2nd of 3) Anne Loftus [see Note 2 below]
Q13) Elizabeth Blount m. (3) Robert Blayney of Castle Blayney (see A13 above)

Note 1: Elizabeth Clifford is ancestral to Prince William through 2 of her 4 husbands: Sir William Brabazon (1st husband) and Sir Henry Moore of Mellefont (4th husband).
Note 2: Anne Loftus is ancestral to Prince William through her 1st husband (of 3) Henry Colley of Castle Carbery

[Brad Verity]

On Thursday, June 13, 2019 at 11:16:32 AM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> At A7 above Eleanor Cornewall and Sir Richard Croft also had a daughter through whom a descent (here labeled Q) can be traced to Marcia Morgan, wife of John Pitt of Encombe:
> Q8) Anne Croft (d. 1549) m. Sir Thomas Blount of Kinlet (ca. 1451-1524)
> Q9) Edward Blount of Kidderminster (d. 1559) m. Margaret Garneys
> Q10) Capt. Christopher Blount m. (her 2nd of 4) Elizabeth Clifford [see Note 1 below]
> Q11) Capt. George Blount of Kidderminster and later of Donasse, Co. Clare m. (her 2nd of 3) Anne Loftus [see Note 2 below]
> Q13) Elizabeth Blount m. (3) Robert Blayney of Castle Blayney (see A13 above)

Great research, John. You did much better than I could with this line - I couldn't find the parentage of Capt. Christopher Blount (Generation Q10) above, after searching quite a bit for it. I kept running into the other Christopher Blount, the one with a ODNB entry, who married Lettice (Knollys), widowed countess of Essex.

What is your source that Capt. Christopher Blount was the son of Edward Blount of Kidderminster & Margaret Garneys (Generation Q9 above)?

Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad

[John Higgins]

For Blount of Kidderminster, I used Sir Alexander Croke, The genealogical history of the Croke family : originally named Le Blount (1823). It's generally reliable for the Blounts (although not necessarily for the supposed connection to the Crokes) and it does garble some information (particularly for wives) on occasion. It's available via the Internet Archive (the FHL has a digital copy, but it's missing the pertinent tables).

Blount of Kidderminster appears in table 9, following page 168 of volume 2. As an example of garbling, the table identifies the wife of Capt. Christopher Blount as "widow of Dominus Brabazon of Ireland, da. and heir of ____ Gifford of Holmes, Kent". In fact, she was Elizabeth Clifford [not Gifford], daughter of Nicholas Clifford of Holme [not Holmes], Kent. This is confirmed by the article on the Earls of Meath in the recent editions of BP, which covers her 1st husband Sir William Brabazon and lists all 4 of her husbands (including Sir Christopher "Blunt").

BTW I listed Margaret Garneys as the wife of Christopher's father Edward Blount of Kidderminster because that seems to be the commonly accepted identification of his wife. But I'd be interested to know if there is a good source that confirms this. I ask because table 9 in the Croke book identifies her as "dau. and heir of Carne". This agrees with another source, vol. 14 (1881) of Montgomeryshire Collections, which (on p. 252) calls her Jane, "daughter and sole heir of John Carne, son of Walter Carne, by Sibil, daughter of William Kemeys of Newport". I haven't been able to confirm this other idenfification either - so I thought I'd ask the question....

[leslie...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 1:13:31 PM UTC-7, Brad Verity wrote:
> I decided that before tackling the royal ancestry of Jack Brooksbank, and all the detailed lines posted by Gawain and others some months back, I needed to at least have his mother-in-law and her ancestry in my database.
>
> I’ve finally completed entering all of the Duchess of York’s lines back to Edward I (at least all the ones that I could uncover). The end result is that I do have some lines that aren’t yet in the Genealogics and Roglo databases, and I’ll post them here to SocGenMed, for completion’s sake, if nothing else. I realize this overlaps with research into Sarah Ferguson’s ancestry undertaken and shared by Will Johnson, John Higgins and others over the years. I’ve tried to go back in the archives and re-read the past threads on Sarah’s ancestry, but I may well have missed some. If I post a line that was already covered previously, my apologies.
>
> I’m fascinated by mtDNA lines, and what immediately struck me with the Duchess of York’s ancestry is that she is a direct mtDNA descendant of Lady Anne Clifford, Countess of Dorset and (later) of Pembroke (1590-1676), who was a genealogist herself in her own time, and whose research into her Clifford ancestors I’ve previously studied. Of course this mtDNA line continues into the next generation with Sarah’s daughters Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie, as well as their first cousins, Ayesha (Makim) Specker and Heidi Luedecke. In my database, I’ve traced Sarah’s mtDNA line back 18 generations to Elizabeth Howard, wife of Henry Wentworth of Codham Hall (d. 1483). As neither Elizabeth nor her husband descend from Edward I, I haven’t traced the line back any further, but Genealogics (thanks to Gerald Paget’s The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles) has it back a further two generations, to Margery, wife of Sir Henry Hussey.
> http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00076296&tree=LEO
>
> Has anyone been able to trace it even further back? It’s noteworthy that the Duchess of York’s mtDNA line can be traced back to the 14th-century, especially when compared to her royal ex-husband Prince Andrew, whose mtDNA line is traced (at least in Genealogics) only 8 generations back, to the 18th-century Ann Newland, wife of Edward Garritt.
> http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00219247&tree=LEO
>
> Turning to the Duchess of York’s paternal line, what’s interesting is how it really didn’t achieve gentry status until the end of the 19th-century. According to the ‘Ferguson of Dummer’ article in BLG (1972), the family seems to have originated in Ireland, in counties Down and Antrim, and can be traced back seven generations from Sarah, to the latter 18th-century. A 3xgreat-uncle, barrister-at-law Thomas Benyon Ferguson (1836-1874), was the first to marry into the Edward I bloodline, in 1869, followed by his widowed sister-in-law, Sophia (Holford) Ferguson, who took as her second husband, Sir Astley Paston Paston-Cooper, 3rd Baronet, in 1890. Genealogics (thanks to Debrett’s Book of the Royal Engagement (1986)) has much of the Ferguson/Holford ancestry. If anyone has done further research into it, and come across any lines back to the Plantagenets, I’d be interested in hearing about it.
> http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005778&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=7
>
> Maj. Victor Ferguson, Lady Paston-Cooper’s eldest son, purchased Polebrook Hall in Northamptonshire in 1885. When he was killed on the Second Ashanti Expedition in January 1896, it was inherited by his next brother, Capt. Algernon Ferguson, one of the three aide-de-camps to the recently appointed governor of New South Wales, Viscount Hampden. A year later, in January 1897, the engagement of Capt. Ferguson to Viscount Hampden’s eldest daughter, Hon. Margaret Brand, was announced. It clearly was a love match, and the April 1897 wedding in Sydney’s St Andrew Cathedral was given royal wedding status by Australian society and press, including a 5-page illustrated spread in The Sydney Mail and New South Wales Advertiser:
> https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/163793603?searchTerm=Algernon%20Ferguson&searchLimits=
>
> Hon. Margaret (Brand) Ferguson had an extensive royal ancestry, including a line of descent from Charles II thru his illegitimate daughter Anne (Palmer), Countess of Sussex. One of Hon. Margaret’s paternal ancestors is Katherine (Cornwallis) Knollys, in Genealogics here, with only a father given:
> http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00123702&tree=LEO
>
> KATHERINE CORNWALLIS, bapt. 28 July 1591 St Stephen Walbrook, London; d. Jan. 1674 (will dated 15 Jan. 1674, proved 27 Jan. 1674); m. 25 Apr. 1609 St Martin in the Fields, London, Sir HENRY KNOLLYS of Grove Place, Nursling, Hampshire (b. unknown; bur. 9 Oct. 1638 St Boniface Church, Nursling, Hampshire), est. son of Henry Knollys of Chickenhall, North Stoneham, Hampshire & Joan Salmon.
>
> Dame Katherine Knollys has two lines of descent from Edward I, one thru each of her parents.
>
> Edward I had two daus A1 & B1 (see below)
> A1) Joan of Acre, Countess of Gloucester, who had
> A2) Lady Eleanor de Clare (1292-1337) m. 1) Hugh, 2nd Lord Despenser (c.1289-1326), and had
> A3) Isabel Despenser (c.1313-aft.1356) m. (div.) Richard Fitzalan, 3rd Earl of Arundel (c.1314-1376), and had
> A4) Sir Edmund Arundel of Bignor (1327-c.1381) m. Lady Sybil Montagu (c.1327-aft.1371), and had
> A5) Philippa Arundel (c.1352-1399) m. 1) Sir Richard Cergeaux of Colquite (c.1340-1393), and had
> A6) Philippa Cergeaux (1381-1420) m. 1) Sir Robert Pashley of Pashley (c.1370-1400), and had
> A7) Anne Pashley (d. 1444) m. 2) Edward Tyrrell of Downham (d. 1442), and had
> A8) Philippa Tyrrell (b. c.1435) m. Thomas Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1421-1484), and had
> A9) William Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1470-1519) m. Elizabeth Stanford (d. 1537), and had
> A10) Sir John Cornwallis of Brome Hall (c.1491-1544) m. Mary Sulyard, and had
> A11) Richard Cornwallis of Okenhill Hall (d. bef.1581) m. Margaret Lowthe (c.1529-1603), and had
> A12) Sir Thomas Cornwallis of Porchester Castle (d. 1618) m. Elizabeth Molyneux (see B11 below), and had
> A13) Katherine Cornwallis (1591-1674) m. Sir Henry Knollys of Grove Place
>
> B1) Elizabeth Plantagenet, Countess of Hereford, who had
> B2) Lady Eleanor de Bohun (c.1310-1363) m. 1) James Butler, 1st Earl of Ormond (1305-1338), and had
> B3) Lady Petronilla Butler (c.1335-1368) m. Gilbert, 3rd Lord Talbot (c.1332-1387), and had
> B4) Richard, 4th Lord Talbot (by 1361-1396) m. Ankaret Lestrange (by 1361-1413), and had
> B5) Mary Talbot (c.1382-1434) m. 1) Sir Thomas Greene of Greens Norton Hall (1369-1417), and had
> B6) Sir Thomas Greene of Greens Norton Hall (1400-1462) m. 2) Marine Bellers (d. 1489), and had
> B7) Elizabeth Greene m. Sir Bryan Sandford of Thorpe Salvin, and had
> B8) Dorothy Sandford m. Richard Lascelles of Gateford (d. 1520), and had
> B9) George Lascelles of Gateford (by 1499-1558) m. Dorothy Paynell, and had
> B10) Anne Lascelles m. John Molyneux of Thorpe (d. 1588), and had
> B11) Elizabeth Molyneux m. Sir Thomas Cornwallis of Portchester Castle (see A12 above)
>
> More to follow.
>
> Cheers, -----Brad


Here's another descent from Edward I. This one goes by way of the Caribbean colonies.


1. George Jernegan of Somerleyton, Suffolk, died by 1559, and his wife Ela Spelman.

(ancestry here:
https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00615236&tree=LEO)

2. Their daughter Margaret Jernegan, married to William Warner of Wingfield, Suffolk.


See the Herald's Visitation of Suffolk:

https://archive.org/details/visitationsofsuf00harvuoft/page/174


The line of descent is also recorded in the monumental inscription for
Robert Warner:

https://archive.org/details/historyantiquiti02suck/page/n257


3. Thomas Warner, colonizer of the West Indies, died 10 March 1648/9 on the Island of St. Kitts, had children by second wife Rebecca Payne.

Details of this and following generations are in the Dictionary of National Biography:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Warner,_Thomas_(DNB00)


4. Philip Warner of Antigua, died 1689, married to Henrietta Ashton.


5. Thomas Warner of the Folly, died 1695, married to Jane Walrond.


Some of their descendants are traced here:

https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00217494&tree=LEO


Leslie

[leslie...@gmail.com]

There is also Katherine Eglinton Fordyce, d. 1851, wife of Robert Balfour,
6th of Balbirnie, in the pedigree here:

https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00005785&tree=LEO


Katherine was a daughter of this Catharine Maxwell, married to John Fordyce:

https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00202039&tree=LEO

They are recorded in
A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain & Ireland, Volume 1:

https://books.google.com/books?id=YUtNAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA189&dq=catherine+maxwell+john+fordyce+ayton&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2hqvm1uriAhUgJzQIHUeSBjQQ6AEIVjAI#v=onepage&q=catherine%20maxwell%20john%20fordyce%20ayton&f=false

There are several Scottish royal descents through the Maxwells.

Leslie

[Brad Verity]

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 11:07:39 AM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
> For Blount of Kidderminster, I used Sir Alexander Croke, The genealogical history of the Croke family : originally named Le Blount (1823). It's generally reliable for the Blounts (although not necessarily for the supposed connection to the Crokes) and it does garble some information (particularly for wives) on occasion. It's available via the Internet Archive (the FHL has a digital copy, but it's missing the pertinent tables).
>
> Blount of Kidderminster appears in table 9, following page 168 of volume 2.

Thank you, John - I downloaded the book and extracted the Blount of Kinlet pedigree. It's great to have a pedigree for the family - should be very useful.

>
> BTW I listed Margaret Garneys as the wife of Christopher's father Edward Blount of Kidderminster because that seems to be the commonly accepted identification of his wife. But I'd be interested to know if there is a good source that confirms this. I ask because table 9 in the Croke book identifies her as "dau. and heir of Carne". This agrees with another source, vol. 14 (1881) of Montgomeryshire Collections, which (on p. 252) calls her Jane, "daughter and sole heir of John Carne, son of Walter Carne, by Sibil, daughter of William Kemeys of Newport". I haven't been able to confirm this other idenfification either - so I thought I'd ask the question....

I have a vague recollection that there was some question about Margaret Garneys as Edward Blount's wife - maybe it was she couldn't be located in Garneys pedigrees? Sorry I'm not more help here, but Jane Carne seems specific enough as to be the likelier spouse over Margaret Garneys.

Thanks & Cheers, ----Brad

[Brad Verity]

On Friday, June 14, 2019 at 7:55:28 PM UTC-7, lma...@att.net wrote:

> Here's another descent from Edward I. This one goes by way of the Caribbean colonies.
> 1. George Jernegan of Somerleyton, Suffolk, died by 1559, and his wife Ela Spelman.
> (ancestry here:
> https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00615236&tree=LEO)
> 2. Their daughter Margaret Jernegan, married to William Warner of Wingfield, Suffolk.
> See the Herald's Visitation of Suffolk:
> https://archive.org/details/visitationsofsuf00harvuoft/page/174
> The line of descent is also recorded in the monumental inscription for
> Robert Warner:
> https://archive.org/details/historyantiquiti02suck/page/n257
> 3. Thomas Warner, colonizer of the West Indies, died 10 March 1648/9 on the Island of St. Kitts, had children by second wife Rebecca Payne.
> Details of this and following generations are in the Dictionary of National Biography:
> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Warner,_Thomas_(DNB00)
> 4. Philip Warner of Antigua, died 1689, married to Henrietta Ashton.
> 5. Thomas Warner of the Folly, died 1695, married to Jane Walrond.
> Some of their descendants are traced here:
> https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00217494&tree=LEO

Thank you for this line, Leslie. I had Jane Warner, wife of Jonas Langford, and I had Ashton Warner of Clarkes Hill, son of Col. Thomas Warner of Antigua (your Generation 5 above), in my database. But I didn't realize Jane (Warner) Langford was the daughter of Ashton Warner - now it's all linked up!

Cheers, ----Brad

[Leslie Mahler]

Sarah Ferguson has more royal descents, through Francis Lloyd of Crickadarn,
Breconshire, and Ludlow, Shropshire, died 1704:

https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00116828&tree=LEO

The mother of Francis was Catherine Williams of Park, Radnorshire. She has
two descents from Edward III, through Vaughan & Whitney intermarriages.
Marmaduke Lloyd, the father of Francis, has several descents from Edward I.
Many of these lineages are outlined in Theophilus Jones, A History of the County
of Brecknock.

Leslie

[Brad Verity]

On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 10:28:42 PM UTC-8, Leslie Mahler wrote:
> Sarah Ferguson has more royal descents, through Francis Lloyd of Crickadarn,
> Breconshire, and Ludlow, Shropshire, died 1704:
>
> https://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00116828&tree=LEO
>
> The mother of Francis was Catherine Williams of Park, Radnorshire. She has
> two descents from Edward III, through Vaughan & Whitney intermarriages.
> Marmaduke Lloyd, the father of Francis, has several descents from Edward I.
> Many of these lineages are outlined in Theophilus Jones, A History of the County
> of Brecknock.

Thank you for working on these lines, Leslie. I have several of the St John-Mildmay family in my database, and these are their ancestors as well. I've finished entering the lines, and I don't have much to add except some details.

The two Edward III lines for Mary (Waters) (Tynte), Lady St John of Farley are laid out, both being through Constance (Audley), Lady Whitney.

Edward III had a son:
1) Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York (1341-1402), and had
2) Constance (Plantagenet of York), Countess of Gloucester (c.1375-1416), and had
3) Eleanor (Holland), Lady Audley, illegit., who had
4) Constance Audley m. as his 1st wife, Robert Whitney of Whitney (c.1436-1494), and had two daus A5 & B5 (see below) [*1]
A5) Joan Whitney m. Sir Roger Vaughan of Porthaml (c.1436-1514), and had
A6) Watkin Vaughan of Porthaml m. Joan Vaughan, and had
A7) Sir William Vaughan of Porthaml (d. bef.1553) m. Katherine Havard, and had
A8) Anne Vaughan m. John Games of Aberbrân, and had
A9) Joan Games m. 2) Roger Williams of Parc-yr-Irfon (see B8 below), and had
A10) Catherine Williams m. Marmaduke Lloyd of Crickadarn (descended from Edward I), and had [*2]
A11) FRANCIS LLOYD, M.P. Ludlow 1691-95, b. c.1655; bur. 13 Mar. 1704 Temple Church, London; m. 2nd Elizabeth Owen (who m. 2nd Richard Dawkins of Brecon), dau of Rev. Evan Owen, Rector of Beguildy, and had [*3]
A12) JANE LLOYD m. 1704, John Waters of Brecon (b. c.1681; d. 17 Jan. 1715, bur. 1 Feb. 1715), son of John Waters of Brecon, clothier (d. 1698) & his 2nd wife Mary Penry (d. 1682), and had [*4]
A13) MARY WATERS, b. Aug. 1709; d. 17 Dec. 1758 Farley Chamberlayne, Hampshire; m. 2nd 1 Oct. 1736, Sir Paulet St John, 1st Baronet of Farley (1704-1780, descended from Edward I)

B5) Eleanor Whitney m. Sir Thomas Vaughan of Bredwardine, and had
B6) Sir Richard Vaughan of Bredwardine m. Anne Butler, and had
B7) Blanche Vaughan m. Gwilym ap Madog Llwyd of Parc-yr-Irfon, and had
B8) Roger Williams of Parc-yr-Irfon m. Joan Games (see A9 above) [*2]

Some observations on the two lines above.

[*1] There has been much discussion in the past on the marriages and children of Robert Whitney of Whitney (see Generation 4 above). The most recent article on the matter 'The Two Wives of Robert Whitney' by Adrian Benjamin Burke, Foundations (2008):
https://fmg.ac/phocadownload/userupload/foundations2/JN-02-06/451Whitney.pdf

And a discussion about it in this newsgroup:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/7AEjnqlwxr0/m/UnLu2Y3LPZAJ

Both concluded that there is not enough contemporary (15th-century) evidence yet uncovered, to determine with certainty the maternity of any of Robert Whitney's children.

Peter Bartrum, in his Whitney 1 pedigree chart, assigns three sons and four daughters to Robert Whitney and his second wife Elizabeth Vaughan of Hergest. To his first wife Constance Audley, Bartrum assigns only two children, Joan Whitney, who married Sir Roger Vaughan of Porthaml (see A5 above), and Eleanor Whitney, who married Thomas Vaughan of Bredwardine (see B5 above).

I'm inclined to believe Bartrum correctly assigned those two daughters to Constance Audley for a couple reasons: 1) Their first names 'Joan' and 'Eleanor' - Joan was the name of Robert Whitney's mother, and Eleanor was the name of Constance Audley's mother, so it seems natural that those first names would've been given to Robert Whitney's eldest daughters by his first wife; and 2) Both Joan and Eleanor married into the Vaughan family, suggesting that they had a different mother than Elizabeth Vaughan, Robert Whitney's second wife.

[*2] The lack of dates in Generations A6 to A10 above, and in Generations B5 to B8 above, is of concern. Especially as the intermarriage of Roger Williams of Parc-yr-Irfon (B8 above) and Joan Games (A9 above), is a generation apart from each other. It is not unheard of for two intermarrying descendants of a couple to be a generation apart, but it is a red flag when there are no dates to confirm the pedigree.

[*3] Francis Lloyd of Ludlow (see Generation A11 above) has an entry in HOP, where it is shown he had a daughter by each of his two wives.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1690-1715/member/lloyd-francis-1655-1704

There is a Lloyd of Maes Y Felin Pedigree in 'Some Family Records & Pedigrees of the Lloyds' by Lucy Ellen Lloyd Theakston (1913), p. 148:
https://archive.org/details/somefamilyrecord00thea/page/n148/mode/2up?q=Beguildy

Theakston states [pp. xiii-xiv]: "Francis Lloyd is believed to have married twice. His first wife was Anne Hackett, of Chalfont St. Peters, Bucks. The marriage took place by licence, dated November 25th, 1678. Frances, their daughter, was baptized at Ludlow, November 27th, 1685. Anne died March 14th, and was buried at Ludlow, March 17th, 1685-6. ... According to Theophilus Jones's History of Brecon, and other MS. Records, Francis Lloyd appears to have married later, Elizabeth, daughter of the Rev. Evan Owen, of Beguildy, who was probably the mother of some of his children. These are given by Jones, and by Lewis in his MS., as a son, Marmaduke, who died young, and two daughters, Frances and Jane. Frances, however, was a daughter by the first wife as mentioned above. ... Francis Lloyd's second daughter, Jane, married in 1704, John Waters, of Brecon, and had an only daughter, Mary, who married first, Sir Halswell Tynte, 3rd Baronet":
https://archive.org/details/somefamilyrecord00thea/page/n184/mode/2up?q=Beguildy

I was able to uncover some further dates for Francis Lloyd's first wife: ANNE REWSE, bap. 5 Feb. 1647 St Botolph without Aldgate, London; d.14 Mar. 1686 Ludlow, Shropshire, bur. 17 Mar. 1686 St Lawrence Church, Ludlow, daughter of Sir Francis Rewse of Headstone Manor, Harrow-on-the-Hill, Middlesex (1612-1654) & Anne Hutchinson (d. 1693); married 1st 17 Jan. 1665 St Andrew Holborn, London, Gustavus Hacket of London (bap. 18 Jan. 1636 St Dunstan Church, Cheam, Surrey; bur. 9 Feb. 1673 St Dunstan in the West, London), and had issue; m. 2nd 30 Nov. 1678 St Paul Covent Garden, London, Francis Lloyd of Ludlow (c.1655-1704, descended from Edward III), and had further issue.

For Sir Francis Rewse, see the footnote on p. 8 in the 'Smith of Gordon Brook' article in 'Burke's Colonial Gentry' (1891):
https://archive.org/details/genealogicalhera01burk/page/8/mode/2up

For Gustavus Hacket, first husband of Anne Rewse, see 'Hacket Pedigree' from the 1683 Visitation of Warwick, printed in 'Miscellanea Genealogical et Heraldica' New Series Volume 2 (1877), p. 402:
https://archive.org/details/miscellaneagenea02unse/page/402/mode/2up

Marmaduke Lloyd, son of Francis Lloyd of Twickenham, matriculated at Balliol College Oxford 4 May 1699, aged 15, and became a student at the Inner Temple 1698.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/alumni-oxon/1500-1714/pp921-955

Marmaduke Lloyd was buried 14 Feb. 1704 Temple Church, London, just one month before his father.
https://archive.org/details/registerburials00englgoog/page/n44/mode/2up

According to HOP and Theakston, Marmaduke was the son of Francis Lloyd by his second wife Elizabeth Owen. But his age at his matriculation places his birth 1683/84, during Francis Lloyd's first marriage.

I've not been able to locate baptism, marriage, or burial dates for Elizabeth (Owen) (Lloyd) Dawkins, the second wife of Francis Lloyd. Nor was I able to find any information on her father Rev. Evan Owen, rector of Beguildy.

[*4] There is a brief article and pedigree 'Waters of Brecon' by E.C.W. in 'The Herald and Genealogist' Volume 7 (1873), p. 336:
https://archive.org/details/heraldgenealogis07nich/page/336/mode/2up

An article in Notes & Queries (1918) states [p.179 ]: "John Watters m. secondly Mary, dau. to Thomas Penry of Brecknock, gent, (from Athelstan Glodri), and d. Aug. 17, 1698. By his second marriage John had a son John Watters, Esq., who m. Jane, dau. and coheiress to Francis Lloyd of Llawrllan, Esq., one of the judges of North Wales. Her mother was Anne, dau. to Sir Francis Rewse of Headstone in Middlesex, Kt. This John d. Jan. 17 (buried Feb. 1), 1714-15, and left a dau. Mary, born Aug., 1709. He had two other children, Jane and John, who both died infants":
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Notes_and_Queries_-_Series_12_-_Volume_4.djvu/185

If she was of Francis Lloyd's second marriage, the earliest year Jane (Lloyd) Waters (see Generation A12 above) could have been born was 1687, and that's assuming that Francis Lloyd married Elizabeth Owen within months after the death of his first wife. Meaning that at her 1704 marriage to John Waters, Jane Loyd could not have been any older than age 17, if Elizabeth Owen was her mother. Given the chronology, and the fact that we know Francis Lloyd had more than just one child, daughter Frances, by his first wife, I'm inclined to agree with Notes & Queries and assign the other surviving daughter and co-heiress, Jane (Lloyd) Waters, to Anne (Rewse) (Hacket) Lloyd as well.

I cannot locate any baptism, marriage or burial entries for Jane Lloyd, or for her husband John Waters of Brecon. Nor can I locate any baptism, marriage or burial entries for their daughter Mary (Waters) (Tynte), Lady St John of Farley. The dates I have for her are from Complete Baronetage.

Cheers, -------Brad

[Alisha Green]

hi you should have a look at my tree i have 4 links to henry the second

[taf]

On 2/4/2024 5:17 PM, Alisha Green wrote:

> hi you should have a look at my tree i have 4 links to henry the second

If you would like to discuss these royal links, perhaps some more
details would spur conversation.

taf