Sarah Duchess of York and her extra medieval ascents
wjhonson
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00252241&tree=LEO
we see that William FitzHerbert, of Tissington; Recorder of Derby
who also appears in the ancestry of
Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York
Leo is there showing his father correctly as Anthony FitzHerbert, but
no mother and not further ascent.
I shall now wave my magic wand and show, not one, not two, not five,
not ten, but a further ascent of over 30 more generations behind this
Anthony.
The clue comes when we realize that Anthony himself was *not* of
Tissington, and so when, how and why did William FitzHerbert, Recorder
of Derby gain this Manor?
Collin's Peerage tells us. He was the heir of his uncle, also William
FitzHerbert, esq of Tissington who had married Mary Cromwell, daughter
of Thomas Baron Cromwell, but who, when he died, left only female
heirs.
This Mary Cromwell died 8 Apr 1676, while her husband William died 24
Jun 1696 "aet 72"
The parents of William FitzHerbert (1624-96) and his brother Anthony
(born 1626/30) were John FitzHerbert, Knt in 1624, of Tissington, co
Derby who died 2 Aug 1642 "aet 43" and his wife Elizabeth FitzHerbert
who died 17 Feb 1630.
While the male FitzHerbert line is carried back for quite some
distance, I've not yet found a royal ascent behind it, however
Elizabeth FitzHerbert (d 1630) was the daughter of "Anthony
FitzHerbert of Norbury" as Collin's tells us.
I am not *yet* sure if this refers to that Anthony FitzHerbert of
Norbury known to have died in 1613 or if he had a son also Anthony,
regardless of that this FitzHerbert of Norbury family ascends in four
(or five) steps to Nicholas FitzHerbert and Alice Booth, Richard
Cotton and Joan Venables, and William Brereton and Philippa Hulse.
All of most of whom are already in Leo's database and have further
ascents far into the medieval period, with royal lines as well for
some.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
Duchess of York" we come to this entry in Leo's great database
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00057927&tree=LEO
showing that John Pitt of Encombe
who has mother Lora Grey (sounds promising)
daughter of Audeley Grey
A quick Google Book scan will convince you of the repeated notion that
"Lora Grey" who married George /Pitt/ of Strathfieldsaye, Hants.
("eldest son") was herself the "only child and heiress of her
father". She died June 1750. She herself by the way, put up the
monument to her husband George.
But *who* was "Audeley Grey" ? Leo doesn't know. But I do.
Audeley Grey Gent of Nether Stoway at his marriage license dated 16
Mar 1665/6 to Margaret Trevelyan "her parents both dead" was himself
"aged about 28", while his espoused Margaret was "aged 22".
This couple had apparently at least or exactly three children. Beside
Lora, they had Henry Grey bap 26 Feb 1672 and Audley Grey bap 3 Apr
1673, both died young. Audley has an entry in the Ancestral File in
which they state that he was buried 19 May 1675.
Here comes the kicker. Audley was the "last of the Greys of Kingston
Marwood". His daughter Lora, as his sole remaining heiress took the
inheritence to the Pitt family, under which, in A2A you will find a
few documents related to that Manor.
Also known as Kingston Marward, Marwarde and Maurward. In co Dorset.
Now were does Audley fit in the Grey family?
There is a Vis Dorset 1623 extant, which is obviously cut short for
Audley who had to be born sometime in the 1637/9 time period, but it
does tell us nonetheless.
George Grey of Kingston Marward, by his wife Joan Smith "sole heiress
of her father Angell Smith, Gent of Stratton, co Dorset" had a son
Angell Grey. On his father's death he became of Kingston Marward.
The Ancestral File has this Angell buried on 8 Dec 1670. The 1623 Vis
tells us he is "aet 20" in 1623. And they there list his wife as
Katherine Stawell dau of Sir John Stawell Knt of Somerset.
This couple married 28 Mar 1625 (IGI - British Isles - Batch M046292)
at Ardeley, Hertford. Their son and heir George Grey married 28 Jul
1657 Lucy Purefoy, dau of George Purefoy (1605-61), esq of Wadley and
Shalstone by his wife Anne Glover. And here I correct Burke's which
puts her a generation earlier, which I dispute.
But wait! This couple is too young to be the parents of that Audeley
who's only heiress took the place to the Pitts. What's going on here?
The suspense is simply too much!
It turns out that Angell Grey, after the death (or whatever) of his
first wife Katherine Stawell married secondly to... wait for it.. get
ready... Grace Fulwood, heiress of Forde Hall on 2 Oct 1633 at Saint
Martin in the Fields, Westminster, London (IGI - British Isles - Batch
M001452).
And they are the parents of Audeley who thus, was heir to his half-
brother who d.s.p.
So Audeley Grey thus gains the following table
2 Angell Grey
3 Grace Fulwood
4 George Grey
5 Joan Smith
6 John Fulwood
7 Catherine Dabridgecourt
8 Christopher Grey
9 Mary Yarde
10 Angell Smith
11 unknown
12 John Fulwood
13 Mary Hill
14 Thomas Dabridgecourt
15 unknown
Will Johnson
wjhonson
entered his name as "Abdelay"
It's here IGI - British Isles - Batch M051001
Abdelay [sic] Grey to Margerit Trevilyan
27 Apr 1666
Saint Mary Major, Exeter, Devon
Will Johnson
wjhonson
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00057931&tree=LEO
George Pitt "eldest son" of George Pitt of Stratfieldsay, Hampshire by
his wife Jane Savage
Leo has done a smashing job of showing that Jane Savage has a *full*
complement of royal lines, each of her great-grandparents ascend
individually to England, except one who ascends to Germany.
However, George's father, George Pitt is left hanging with no
ancestry.
This George was the son of Edward Pitt by his wife Rachel Morton
Edward in turn was the "eldest son and heir" of his father Sir William
Pitt, Knt 1618, and Clerk of the Exchequer, by his wife Edith Cadbury,
heiress of Nicholas Cadbury, esq of Arne and Wareham.
Meanwhile Rachel Morton was the daughter of Sir George Morton, Knt and
Bart (cr 1619) of Milborne St Andrews, co Dorset by his wife said-to-
be "Catherine Hopton dau of Sir Arthur Hopton".
The identification of George's wife Catherine has been suspected on
the basis that the Vis Somerset 1623 "Hopton" does not show her. If
it can be shown otherwise that she does fit here then it's likely her
mother is that Rachel Hall known to be Arthur's wife, and this line
would gain several royal ascents.
Meanwhile Sir George Morton is the son of Sir George Morton by his
wife Joan Holloway.
http://books.google.com/books?id=LKIKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA374&dq=%22George+Morton%22+Baronet
http://books.google.com/books?id=PmwBAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA2-PA345&dq=%22George+Morton%22+Catherine&as_brr=1
"Anecdotes of the Life of the Right Hon William Pitt..." by John Almon
http://books.google.com/books?id=26Lsr2E-i_sC&pg=RA3-PA663&dq=%22Marcus+Morgan%22+pitt
Will Johnson
wjhonson
Nicholas Cadbury died 6 Nov 20E when he was seized of inter alia the
Manor of Arne. Nicholas left three co-heiresses, Edith, Agnes and
Joan and Joan was first seized of this Manor after his death, but by
26E1 William Pitt was so seized jure uxoris.
So this tells us the maximum date by which William Pitt and Edith
Cadbury were married.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
Some time ago we had a lively discussion about Sanche d'Aubrechicourt
"probably eldest son" of Sir Nicholas, Seigneur d'Aubrechicourt, Knt
and Esquire of the Body to Edward III by his wife Elizabeth du Roeulx,
heiress of Stratfield-Say, Southampton.
I don't know if anyone was paying attention when I, in passing,
mention Stratfield-Say in my corrections and additions to the ancestry
of Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York. Here we have a chance to tie two
different discussions together.
I had already shown how Sarah has in her ancestry a certain Catherine
Dabridgecourt of Solihull, daughter of Thomas Dabridgecourt esq of
Langdon Hall, Essex.
In a discussion of the genealogy of the Shakespeare family here
http://books.google.com/books?id=fS8PAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA487&dq=Grace+fulwood+grey&as_brr=1
we see the following: "The father of Katherine, wife of John Fulwood,
viz. Thomas Dabridgecourt, was descended from one of the First
Founders of the Order of the Garter" They then go on to say that this
ancestor was Nicholas, son of Sir Sanche d'Aubrichcourt.
Can anyone connect the dots over this hundred year gap? If so we
could give Sarah Ferguson some really interesting additional
ancestors.
Thanks
Will Johnson
wjhonson
> I had already shown how Sarah has in her ancestry a certain Catherine
> Dabridgecourt of Solihull, daughter of Thomas Dabridgecourt esq of
> Langdon Hall, Essex.
>
>
> we see the following: "The father of Katherine, wife of John Fulwood,
> viz. Thomas Dabridgecourt, was descended from one of the First
> Founders of the Order of the Garter" They then go on to say that this
> ancestor was Nicholas, son of Sir Sanche d'Aubrichcourt.
>
> Can anyone connect the dots over this hundred year gap? If so we
> could give Sarah Ferguson some really interesting additional
> ancestors.
>
> Thanks
> Will Johnson
-------------------------
I've now found a source which does connect the dots, and thus shows
that Sarah is a descendent of Clovis through this new pathway.
http://www.countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Sarah_Ferguson_to_Clovis%2C_King_of_the_Franks
Will Johnson
wjhonson
York, I can now give extra details about her Sadleir family ascent.
On Leo's great database here
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00214105&tree=LEO&display=standard
we see Anne Saunders baptised 27 Apr 1670 at Flamsted
She was the sole heiress of her father Thomas Saunders, esq of
Beechwood in Flamstead, co Herts by his wife Ellen Sadleir.
Ellen Sadleir in turn was the heiress of her father Robert Sadleir of
Sopwell
who was the eldest son of Richard Sadleir of Sopwell
Richard Sadleir of Sopwell was the second son of Edward Sadleir, esq
of the Manor of Deneslai, hod. Temple Dinsley in Hitchin, co Hertford,
by his wife Anne Leigh eventual sole heiress of her father Sir Richard
Leigh, Knt of Sopwell in St Peter at St Albans
Sir Richard Leigh fought at the siege of Boulogne.
Edward Sadleir and Anne Leigh had an eldest son named Leigh Sadleir
who was of Temple Dinsley, Herts. Leigh Sadleir had a daughter Anne
who married Edward Aston; and Leigh Sadleir had a son, whose name I
did not find, but who himself had a son named Edwine Sadleir who was
made Baronet of Temple Dinsley 1661 and who himself had a son also
Edwine Sadleir, 2nd Baronet.
Edward Sadleir was the second son of Ralph Sadleir Knt Banneret 1547,
of Standon, co Staffs; Master of the Wardrobe 26H8, and of the Privy
Council to E6, Mary and Bess. This Sir Ralph Sadleir died "at his
manor of Standon, Staffs" on 30 Mar 1587 and has a Monument there in
the Chancel at Standon. His wife's name is given as Margaret Michell.
Will Johnson
Leo van de Pas
!@#$%^
The crunch was that I was going to ask you Sir Ralph Sadleir married
Margaret Michell BUT is Margaret the mother of his son Edward? The Complete
Baronetage Volume III page 237 has a footnote telling that Sir Ralph's son
Edward was his 2nd son (legitimated by Act of Parliament).
The descendant whose name you do not have is Thomas Leigh Sadleir who
married Frances Berry
Hope this helps.
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia
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Leo van de Pas
says Herts.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Sarah Duchess of York and her extra medieval ascents
wjhonson
wrote:
> I had a great reply for you and then the system wouldn't let me send it
> !@#$%^
>
> The crunch was that I was going to ask you Sir Ralph Sadleir married
> Margaret Michell BUT is Margaret the mother of his son Edward? The Complete
> Baronetage Volume III page 237 has a footnote telling that Sir Ralph's son
> Edward was his 2nd son (legitimated by Act of Parliament).
>
>
----------------------
That's a great question Leo.
Here is what is "said" (conveniently perhaps) to have happened.
Margaret Michell was married to one "Matthew Barre, tradesman of
London".
By this woman, Ralph Sadleir, Knt, Master of the Wardrobe, etc etc,
had several children. On 37H8 by Act of Parliament, the children, or
at least those living at that time, were legitimated.
They *claimed* that they had thought that Matthew Barre was dead and
so Margaret had married to Ralph. That's the short version. The long
version might be more scandalous! (But I don't know where it lives.)
Will Johnson
Leo van de Pas
I( am not sure about the time frame, it could be 1800 to say 1900 but there
was a law that when a couple had been separated and divided by the sea for
seven years both could legally re-marry. I heard this story and if correct
we should have a different Earl Grey.
Leo
----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <wjho...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2008 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Sarah Duchess of York and her extra medieval ascents
Will Johnson
-------------------------------
wjhonson
Duchess of York, I came to this entry in Leo's great database.
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00252219&tree=LEO&display=standard
One small point, which does not extend the ancestry, but does add
color is that the Sir John Shore who married *secondly* to Sarah
Chambers was *firstly* married as her second husband to Dorothy
Harpur, daughter of John Harpur of Breadsall jure uxoris by his wife
Dorothy Dethick. This Dorothy Harpur has several distinct royal
ascents.
But John and Dorothy had no issue, and in fact Dorothy had no issue
either by her first husband John FitzHerbert, Sheriff of Devonshire
who died 13 Jan 1649.
Meanwhile back on the farm, we also see that Thomas Shore of Melton
has one grandfather called only "Abraham Wilmer" without much detail
on him. I will hopefully shortly be contributing details about his
ancestry, but should anyone have anything to assist me in that, I
would appreciate it. He is a tad difficult to trace.
Will Johnson
al...@mindspring.com
> In my continuing series on the medieval ancestors of Sarah Ferguson,
> Duchess of York, I came to this entry in Leo's great database.
>
>
> One small point, which does not extend the ancestry, but does add
> color is that the Sir John Shore who married *secondly* to Sarah
> Chambers was *firstly* married as her second husband to Dorothy
> Harpur, daughter of John Harpur of Breadsall jure uxoris by his wife
> Dorothy Dethick. This Dorothy Harpur has several distinct royal
> ascents.
>
> But John and Dorothy had no issue, and in fact Dorothy had no issue
> either by her first husband John FitzHerbert, Sheriff of Devonshire
> who died 13 Jan 1649.
>
> Meanwhile back on the farm, we also see that Thomas Shore of Melton
> has one grandfather called only "Abraham Wilmer" without much detail
> on him. I will hopefully shortly be contributing details about his
> ancestry, but should anyone have anything to assist me in that, I
> would appreciate it. He is a tad difficult to trace.
>
> Will Johnson
apparently a different Abraham Wilmer:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=45405
Doug Smith
al...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
And this Abraham's marriage:
http://books.google.com/books?id=jKwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA279&lpg=PA279&dq=Abraham+Willmer&source=web&ots=zn9WV0BGvC&sig=QxoZ3JHgA6oEuQ7Jd7N7MD7I2Yg&hl=en
Doug
wjhonson
Wilmer family, who are ancestral to Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York.
Thomas Shore of Melton, had as his materal grandparents
Abraham Wilmer (1651-1710), Gent of Bowe, co Middlesex and his wife
Elizabeth Thurgood, they were married by license dated 27 Aug 1672 at
All Hallows Barking. Elizabeth Thurgood by that license was aged 17,
while Abraham by that license was aged 22.
Abraham Wilmer was baptised 2 Oct 1651 at Saint Leonards Bromley,
London the son of Abraham Wilmer, esq of St Leonards Bromley; by his
wife Martha Eglesfeild.
Abraham Wilmer and Martha Elgesfeild were married by license dated 8
Oct 1647 (Bishop of London) (thanks to Doug Smith). Where Abraham was
"aged 28" and Martha was "aged 17"
You will note that consent for her, being underage, is given by her
"father-in-law" actually here meaning step-father. Martha was the
daughter of John Eglesfeild, merchant of London who had died 1628/32,
by his wife Alice Clowes. Martha was the sole heiress of this union I
believe.
After John's death, his widow Alice next married John Jacob, Knt (in
1633), of Stanstead Hall, co Essex; 1st Bart (cr 1665-6). They
married 14 Jun 1632 as second husband and second wife, at Stepney.
John Jacob and Alice Clowes had six children but only John Jacob 2nd
Bart casts a shadow, he was bap 11 May 1637 and married Katherine
Alington, a fifth generation descendent of Richard Cecil, on 26 May
1664. Their descendents continue at least three more generations and
then I don't know.
Alice Clowes was buried 26 Sep 1646 at Bromley St Leonard, co
Middlesex and John took a third wife in Elizabeth Ashburnham "eldest
daughter and co-heiress of her father" John Ashburham, Knt. They
married on 1651 and had one daughter Margaret who m Ambrose Muschamp
of Row Barnes 27 Jul 1677 when Ambrose was aged 24.
John Jacob's first wife had been Elizabeth Halliday, dau of John son
of Leonard (by Anne Wincold). I do not know the name of John
Halliday's wife. Elizabeth (Halliday) Jacob was buried 29 Mar 1631 at
Bromley St Leonard. They had married on 2 May 1625.
Alice Clowes was the dau of Anthony Clowes, haberdasher of Nantwich
and of London by his wife Miss unknown Barnham, dau of Francis Barnham
of London, draper.
Anthony Clowes was the eldest son of his father Thomas Clowes of
Nantwich, co Chester. Anthony was born in Nantwich, and he was an
adult by 1615. Miss unknown Barnham was his second wife. By his
first, Alice Bucher he had Thomas Clowes of London, Milliner to the
Queens Ma'ty (whatever that means), and he held this office in 1633 if
not other years.
Thomas Clowes married twice, to Dorothy Wiseman and to Mary Bostock.
Both surnames should probably give rise to interesting new
connections, but I don't know them.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
Ferguson, Duchess of York I come to that John /Beresford/ who married
Frances /FitzHerbert/ on 20 Oct 1725 at Somershall Herbert,
Derbyshire.
His parents being
John /Beresford/ of Ashbourne, Beresford, Newton Grange, etc
and Elizabeth /Shallcross/
as Leo rightly shows
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00233165&tree=LEO
However examining the pedigree of this John senior we see here
http://www.genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00233165&tree=LEO
that's its very short.
I shall now wave my magic wand and give not one, not two, not three,
but as many as 12 additional generations preceding this man.
John Beresford's parents were Francis Beresford (1628-66) of Fenny
Bentley, eldest son, and his wife Frances Holland daughter of Richard
Holland of Henton, Lancs.
Francis Beresford's parents were Francis Beresford of Newton Grange
who d 1671 "aged 72" and his wife Mary Arderne daughter of Henry
Arderne of Hawarden, co Chester
Francis (Senior) Beresford's parents were John Beresford of Newton
Grange obt 1655, by his wife Ellen Alsop daughter of Thomas Alsop of
Castle Hay, Staffs.
John Beresford's parents were John Beresford of Newton Grange by his
wife Maud FitzHerbert, daughter of Robert FitzHerbert, esq of
Tissington.
And I believe with this bridge, we're back into familiar territory.
It will be especially interesting to gateway seekers that BY this link
we've shown that Sarah Ferguson is a cousin to George Bush.
Specifically they both now can be shown to descend from Thomas
Beresford by his wife Agnes Hassall.
Will Johnson