A Spirit-guided WDJW thought about the religious for Pro-Humanist
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the
Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we
know You are a Teacher Who has come from GOD. For no one could perform
the miraculous signs You are doing if GOD were not with him."
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the
kingdom of GOD unless he is born again."
"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he
cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of
GOD unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to
flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be
surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows
wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it
comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the
Spirit."
"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand
these things? I tell you the truth, We speak of what We know, and We
testify to what We have seen, but still you people do not accept our
testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not
believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"
** end Scripture reading **
Amen.
"you people" -- addressing the religious people like Nicodemus back
then and now (Veralein, Mistylein, and others like Pro-humanist's
dad).
"Who then can be saved?" -- question asked Jesus by His disciples
"With man this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible."
-- LORD Jesus Christ (Matthew 19:26)
Amen.
May we, who are Christians (either Jew or gentile), continue to be
mindful of WDJW by praying for the perishing souls of Pro-Humanist,
Veralein, Mistylein, Fred, Don, and Cary.
May GOD soften their hearts so that they would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus, thereby becoming new creatures in Christ, reborn
of water and the Holy Spirit:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://EmoryCardiology.com
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <ach...@emory.edu> wrote ...
> [some bible tales, something Andrew believes
> in, something told to Andrew and reinforced
> in church, something Andrew, once he chose
> to believe it was true, steadfastly committed
> to that for life, with unshakable faith, firm
> belief, and something akin to remembering
> the events as if he had actually witnessed
> them]
See the following for a strong example
of how your 'memory' has been shaped
by peers, and how once you decided
that the tales you were told were true,
you made a commitment to stick to
that assessment that was so strong, it
has prevailed for your entire life, regard-
less of evidence to the contrary and
regardless of moments of doubt or of
disbelief that most, even the most devoted
'believers', experience at times:
- - -
Eyewitness
- - -
Shocking, absolutely shocking, the report
on a particular case that was based on
some evidence, but primarily on the strong
testimony of a 'certain' eyewitness who,
while being raped, says she made a dedi-
cated effort to remember the face of the
rapist, who then picked the rapist out of
a photo line-up, who then chose the rapist
out of a live line-up, who then, in -2- trials,
reaffirmed her memory of who the rapist
was, with firm conviction, with 'certainty'.
Then, 11 years later, she and the 'rapist'
discovered that there was the slightest
of evidence still remaining, a snippet of
DNA, and that DNA not only exonerated
the 'rapist', but pointed to another guy,
a guy who was in court sitting in front
of the rape victim, of the crime.
The accuser and the 'rapist' who had
spent 11 years in prison, later met, at
a church, and he offered her forgive-
ness.
This story brings tears to my eyes, not
only in the malleable way in which the
brain works, something I'd been aware
of regarding the way most children are
influenced to believe in religious tales,
but also in the way the brain is so mal-
leable, that even in strongly remembered
recent events, one can easily be misled
to believe something happened that did
not, in fact, happen.
A human is influenced to believe some-
thing is true, and even when contradic-
tory evidence is present, once that truth
decision has been committed to, most
cling to it as if it was real.
I urge those with video capability to view
each of the following 60 minute videos,
one at a time, to grasp and to remember
how fragile human memory is, and how
malleable it is, and how it can be influ-
enced in a manner differing from truth:
- - -
60 Minutes -- Introduction to stories
in the 3/8/2009 version of the show
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852679n%3fsource=search_video
- - -
Eyewitness Testimony -- Part 1 of 3
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852659n%3fsource=search_video
- - -
Eyewitness Testimony -- Part 2 of 3
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852677n%3fsource=search_video
- - -
How Accurate is Visual Memory?
Part 3 of 3
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4848286n%3fsource=search_video
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/78cb90c13dd271a7?
The latter is a miracle (i.e. something impossible without GOD's
intervention).
> This story brings tears to my eyes, not
> only in the malleable way in which the
> brain works, something I'd been aware
> of regarding the way most children are
> influenced to believe in religious tales,
> but also in the way the brain is so mal-
> leable, that even in strongly remembered
> recent events, one can easily be misled
> to believe something happened that did
> not, in fact, happen.
Actually, this is an illustration of the hazards of being led by the
spirit of error (self) instead of being guided by the Holy Spirit, Who
helps us avoid error.
> A human is influenced to believe some-
> thing is true, and even when contradic-
> tory evidence is present, once that truth
> decision has been committed to, most
> cling to it as if it was real.
Those of us, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, are kept from falling
into falsehood.
> I urge those with video capability to view
> each of the following 60 minute videos,
> one at a time, to grasp and to remember
> how fragile human memory is, and how
> malleable it is, and how it can be influ-
> enced in a manner differing from truth:
>
> - - -
>
> 60 Minutes -- Introduction to stories
> in the 3/8/2009 version of the show
> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852679n%3fsource=search_video
>
> - - -
>
> Eyewitness Testimony -- Part 1 of 3
> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852659n%3fsource=search_video
>
> - - -
>
> Eyewitness Testimony -- Part 2 of 3
> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852677n%3fsource=search_video
>
> - - -
>
> How Accurate is Visual Memory?
> Part 3 of 3
> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4848286n%3fsource=search_video
Such are the pitfalls of trusting in self instead of the truth, Who is
Jesus.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
We will know GOD has done this for you when we witness your publicly
saying "Jesus is LORD."
This would also be when you no longer fearfully hide behind fake
identities having received courage from GOD to boldly live life as GOD
wants for you.
Only the truth can set your free from fear.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Don Kirkman
article <haear4tbqmtbcdvi7...@4ax.com>:
>From John 3:1-12 ...
>Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the
>Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we
>know You are a Teacher Who has come from GOD. For no one could perform
>the miraculous signs You are doing if GOD were not with him."
>In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the
>kingdom of GOD unless he is born again."
>"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he
>cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
>Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of
>GOD unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to
>flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be
>surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows
>wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it
>comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the
>Spirit."
>"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
>"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand
>these things? I tell you the truth, We speak of what We know, and We
>testify to what We have seen, but still you people do not accept our
>testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not
>believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"
>** end Scripture reading **
>"Who then can be saved?" -- question asked Jesus by His disciples
>"With man this is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible."
>-- LORD Jesus Christ (Matthew 19:26)
Very good; just as I told you recently, you make clear Jesus said this
in the context of a religious conversion, not of healing or discerning
truth or the like.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Don Kirkman
article
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/78cb90c13dd271a7?
>> - - -
>> Eyewitness
>> - - -
That is not the definition of a miracle, and the incident is an
example of the common human traits of empathy and regret for conduct
hurtful to others.
>> This story brings tears to my eyes, not
>> only in the malleable way in which the
>> brain works, something I'd been aware
>> of regarding the way most children are
>> influenced to believe in religious tales,
>> but also in the way the brain is so mal-
>> leable, that even in strongly remembered
>> recent events, one can easily be misled
>> to believe something happened that did
>> not, in fact, happen.
>Actually, this is an illustration of the hazards of being led by the
>spirit of error (self) instead of being guided by the Holy Spirit, Who
>helps us avoid error.
Actually it illustrates the malleable nature of the human mind,
including memory, as well as the need to follow strict protocols in
investigations involving eye-witness testimony to prevent
contamination of the evidence. You would be well advised to watch
those videos yourself and hear the analyses by the experts in
neuropsychiatry.
>> A human is influenced to believe some-
>> thing is true, and even when contradic-
>> tory evidence is present, once that truth
>> decision has been committed to, most
>> cling to it as if it was real.
>Those of us, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, are kept from falling
>into falsehood.
You have just fallen into falsehood simply by believing and writing
that you do not fall into falsehood.
>> I urge those with video capability to view
>> each of the following 60 minute videos,
>> one at a time, to grasp and to remember
>> how fragile human memory is, and how
>> malleable it is, and how it can be influ-
>> enced in a manner differing from truth:
>> 60 Minutes -- Introduction to stories
>> in the 3/8/2009 version of the show
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852679n%3fsource=search_video
>> Eyewitness Testimony -- Part 1 of 3
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852659n%3fsource=search_video
>> Eyewitness Testimony -- Part 2 of 3
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852677n%3fsource=search_video
>> How Accurate is Visual Memory?
>Such are the pitfalls of trusting in self instead of the truth, Who is
>Jesus.
You exemplify the pitfalls of trusting your own memories,
predilections, and tendencies. Jesus cannot save you from that kind
of error.
P-H, good summary and explanation of the problem. As always,
acknowledgement of problems is the first step in correcting them.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Gail Michael
of things that happen today. Like it says " A man who pulls the ears of a
dog is like one who interferes in someone else's conflict."
That was Lyndon Johnson with the Viet Nam war when he was shown in the
papers pulling his dog's ears. Very coincidental? And there are tips to
help every day living. :Eating honey reaffirms confidence in living"
????
And then there was Mary Baker Eddy who wrote "Science and Health" with the
conviction of an extremely convinced follower of Jesus and his God given
abilities that still holds well today. If it fails for some, it is
because of fear is her testimony. So there is much in the old and new
testament, if one is inclined to follow their belief.
I am not smart enough to judge, probably too distorted by events to wholly
belief.
Gail Michael
The biggest puzzle to me in life is how and why is there such an illness as
Crohns who does not punish the sinner, but punishes innocent people for the
sinner's actions and leaves no room for science, reasoning or anything that
can give the slightest explanation.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> This may be irrelevant, but I often wonder how the old testment can speak
> of things that happen today. Like it says " A man who pulls the ears of a
> dog is like one who interferes in someone else's conflict."
> That was Lyndon Johnson with the Viet Nam war when he was shown in the
> papers pulling his dog's ears. Very coincidental?
No such thing as coincidental (Proverbs 16:33)
> And there are tips to
> help every day living. :Eating honey reaffirms confidence in living"
> ????
Yes.
"Honey is good but eat too much of it and you will vomit."
"GOD loves an honest scale."
"The laborer's appetite works for him. His hunger drives him on."
> And then there was Mary Baker Eddy who wrote "Science and Health" with the
> conviction of an extremely convinced follower of Jesus and his God given
> abilities that still holds well today. If it fails for some, it is
> because of fear is her testimony. So there is much in the old and new
> testament, if one is inclined to follow their belief.
> I am not smart enough to judge, probably too distorted by events to wholly
> belief.
> Gail Michael
> The biggest puzzle to me in life is how and why is there such an illness as
> Crohns who does not punish the sinner, but punishes innocent people for the
> sinner's actions and leaves no room for science, reasoning or anything that
> can give the slightest explanation.
Actually as soon as we overeat (eating more than one "omer" of food)
we are sinning so that Crohn's disease is punishing us for sinning.
As soon as people start eating less, down to the right amount ("omer")
of food, even Crohn's disease starts being cured by GOD.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Robert Miles
news:49b53904$0$22297$7836...@newsrazor.net...[snip]
>
> See the following for a strong example
> of how your 'memory' has been shaped
> by peers, and how once you decided
> that the tales you were told were true,
> you made a commitment to stick to
> that assessment that was so strong, it
> has prevailed for your entire life, regard-
> less of evidence to the contrary and
> regardless of moments of doubt or of
> disbelief that most, even the most devoted
> 'believers', experience at times:
>
> - - -
>
> Eyewitness
>
> ~~~
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
.
If you decide replying to Chung is worthwhile, could
you remove all the diabetic and diabetes newsgroups
from the list such replies are crossposted to? The
cardiology newsgroup is sufficient to reach him.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
Amen.
> Very good;
GOD is good :-)
> just as I told you recently, you make clear Jesus said this
> in the context of a religious conversion, not of healing or discerning
> truth or the like.
This remains the text-based medium known as Usenet, where though much
is typed and electronically posted, nothing is told.
Dear Don,
Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote ...
Forgiveness isn't a miracle, and gods
are mythical.
>> This story brings tears to my eyes, not
>> only in the malleable way in which the
>> brain works, something I'd been aware
>> of regarding the way most children are
>> influenced to believe in religious tales,
>> but also in the way the brain is so mal-
>> leable, that even in strongly remembered
>> recent events, one can easily be misled
>> to believe something happened that did
>> not, in fact, happen.
> Actually, this is an illustration of the hazards of being led by the
> spirit of error (self) instead of being guided by the Holy Spirit,
> Who helps us avoid error.
There is no "spirit of error". There is no
Holy Spirit. As for why you're fond of
capitalizing "Who", care to share?
>> A human is influenced to believe some-
>> thing is true, and even when contradic-
>> tory evidence is present, once that truth
>> decision has been committed to, most
>> cling to it as if it was real.
>
> Those of us, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, are kept from
> falling into falsehood.
Whatever guides you, religious folks are
just as (or more) likely to deceive, to fall
into falsehood, as are non-religious folks,
as they base their lives on blatant false-
hoods (myths) that most were brain-
washed into at a very young and vul-
nerable age.
>> I urge those with video capability to view
>> each of the following 60 minute videos,
>> one at a time, to grasp and to remember
>> how fragile human memory is, and how
>> malleable it is, and how it can be influ-
>> enced in a manner differing from truth:
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> 60 Minutes -- Introduction to stories
>> in the 3/8/2009 version of the show
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852679n%3fsource=search_video
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> Eyewitness Testimony -- Part 1 of 3
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852659n%3fsource=search_video
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> Eyewitness Testimony -- Part 2 of 3
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4852677n%3fsource=search_video
>>
>> - - -
>>
>> How Accurate is Visual Memory?
>> Part 3 of 3
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4848286n%3fsource=search_video
>
> [...]
- - -
Follow-up -- Link to 6-part text version of
the Eyewitness story:
- - -
Eyewitness: How Accurate Is Visual Memory?
Lesley Stahl Reports On Flaws In Eyewitness
Testimony That Lead To Wrong Convictions
March 8, 2009
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/06/60minutes/main4848039.shtml
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
If that were true, you would be able to forgive GOD for strickening
you with type-1 diabetes and taking away those whom you loved.
You won't be able to forgive GOD until after He forgives you.
Only when you believe in GOD's only begotten Son, Jesus, will GOD
forgive you.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologst
http://EmoryCardiology.com
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <disc...@T3WiJ.com> wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote
>> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <disc...@T3WiJ.com> wrote ...
>>> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> The accuser and the 'rapist' who had
>>>> spent 11 years in prison, later met, at
>>>> a church, and he offered her forgive-
>>>> ness.
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>> The latter is a miracle (i.e. something impossible without
>>> GOD's intervention).
>>
>> Forgiveness isn't a miracle, and gods
>> are mythical.
>>
>> [...'
> If that were true, you would be able to forgive GOD for strickening
> you with type-1 diabetes and taking away those whom you loved.
>
> [...]
Forgive God? Why in the world would
I blame something I don't believe in for
a condition that's a result of nature? Same
regarding my sister and my mother, no
reason to blame God for any of that, but
plenty of reason to point out the fact that
even though they both were devoted church-
going christians, and even though both of
them had voluminous supposedly support-
ive prayer by many, no evidence of any
God intervention, no evidence of any God
love, no evidence of any God existence
occurred. None. Zilch. Nada. ZERO.
Now, YOU may wish to forgive God for
all the downsides of life, thinking God
will give you immortality as a reward for
all your God-promotion, but that's your
hang-up, far removed from the position
of disbelief and disapproval of all the
bible promotion of anti-humanism, and
disapproval of all the promotion of anti-
humanism present in most (if not all) of
the religions which which rely on ancient
documents for guidance.
Apologies for not being well-read on
Buddhism (the most atheistic of ancient
religions) or Hinduism, so I really don't
know much about the extent of anti-
humanism in their ancient literature.
Don Kirkman
article
>Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
Yes, but there is no reason to.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
J666
(in article <8l9dr49vjdpm84mu2...@4ax.com>):
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
> article
> <bd298234-84b7-4209...@h5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>:
>
>
>> Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
>
> Yes, but there is no reason to.
>
Seems many believe God knows what is one's heart so saying something aloud,
in private or public, has no value. It is not what others think of you, but
for believers, what God thinks of you.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>>
>>Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
>
Glad to note that GOD has finally given you the courage to actually
answer the question. It is my hope that you really can publicly say
"Jesus is LORD" instead of doing a Cary Kittrell and lie about being
able:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?
> ... but there is no reason to.
Wrote a little too soon. Sad to note that you are still unable to
publicly say "Jesus is LORD." Instead, you have decided to do a Cary
Kittrell and lie about being able:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/39f4ab0a8dce4121?
May GOD soften Veralein's heart, Mistylein's heart, Fred's heart,
Cary's heart, Pro-Humanist's heart and your heart, Don, so that you
would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
J666
(in article <8l9dr49vjdpm84mu2...@4ax.com>):
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
> article
> <bd298234-84b7-4209...@h5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>:
>
>
>> Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
>
> Yes, but there is no reason to.
>
But there is reason to say publicly CHUNG IS INSANE.
I guess those who demand that someone say that aloud must feel that what a
person says l aloud is more important that what is one's heart and that to
God saying something aloud is more important than believing it and living it.
Seems a God so omnipotent should not be insecure and need public adoration
and this very God would not need little people running around in His name
proclaiming that they know what God wants and they are acting on God's
behalf.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>
>
>Forgive God?
You can't until GOD forgives you so that you would be consoled by His
Holy Spirit.
> Why in the world would
> I blame something I don't believe in for
> a condition that's a result of nature?
Such is the state of mind of those who are not comforted by the Holy
Spirit.
The delusion is that by denying the existence of GOD that you are
somehow punishing Him for what He has allowed to happen to you.
Meanwhile, in your heart, you do not trust the truth, Who is Jesus,
and thus find yourself unable to publicly say "Jesus is LORD."
May we, who are Christians (either Jew or gentile), continue to be
mindful of WDJW by praying that GOD soften your heart so that you
would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://EmoryCardiology.com
Don Kirkman
>Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>>> The latter is a miracle (i.e. something impossible without
>>> GOD's intervention).
>>Forgiveness isn't a miracle...
>If that were true, you would be able to forgive GOD for strickening
>you with type-1 diabetes and taking away those whom you loved.
Oops - no such word as "strickening" - did you intend to say/write
"strychnine"?
Attempts 1 Failures 1 Errors 2 (that "if that were true"
assertion also counts)
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Don Kirkman
>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f7f518be54bdc412?
>>>Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
>>Yes but there is no reason to
>Glad to note that GOD has finally given you the courage to actually
>answer the question. It is my hope that you really can publicly say
>"Jesus is LORD" instead of doing a Cary Kittrell and lie about being
>able:
"Finally" is false; I've answered your question many many times. The
answer is, as I wrote again here, irrelevant, meaningless, falsely
Christian, and a delusional fixation. Satisfied?
>Wrote a little too soon.
No, you wrote too much too often.
>Sad to note that you are still unable to
>publicly say "Jesus is LORD." Instead, you have decided to do a Cary
>Kittrell and lie about being able:
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>
>"Finally" is false;
"Finally" was not your written answer to the written question "Can you
publicly say 'Jesus is LORD' ? " that you are citing.
Instead, "Yes" was your answer to the above question.
And, "Yes," your answer was false because it was a lie.
> I've answered your question many many times.
Not appropriately with either a "Yes" or a "No" as befitting the above
simple question but instead with a vain attempt at obfuscation. Now
recall our written discussion in another thread that attempt is
synonymous with failure:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/39f4ab0a8dce4121?
>The answer is, as I wrote again here, irrelevant, meaningless, falsely
>Christian, and a delusional fixation.
Your answer "Yes" was simply a lie. You are falling back and
attempting to obfuscate again.
> Satisfied?
Actually sad to note again that you are unable to publicly say "Jesus
is LORD."
May GOD soften Pro-Humanist's heart, Veralein's heart, Mistylein's
heart, Fred's heart, Cary's heart, and your heart, Don, so that you
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <ach...@emory.edu> wrote ...
> [God stuff, basically in denial
> regarding the naturalistic causality
> of type 1 diabetes]
It's revealing how you hide behind
your "God tool" instead of facing
the naturalistic manner in which the
world operates.
As for the way in which you approach
problems, here's an alternative for
you to consider, and if you have
any intelligent thought about it, do
try to use your intellect, and what
you must know about how the natur-
alistic world operates, if you have
any desire whatsoever to connect
with a person who is far removed
from your God-speak.
Put another way, try to think like a
secular person, and try to act as
if you were talking to a mixed audi-
ence (Jews, Hindus, Christians,
deists, Muslims, agnostics, atheists,
freethinkers, non-religious, doctors,
scientists) in a way in which using
secular logic and secular reason,
you might be able to persuade that
group that you had something apart
from religion that appealed to the
intellect.
If you're able to do that, I'll do my
best to respond in kind.
Meanwhile, here's a dissertation on
my philosophy:
- - -
FREELOVER Principles
(October 4, 2000)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/freelover.htm
- - -
For me, personally, disbelief in blind faith, religions, and
imaginary beings led me to ponder what, free of the burdens
of blind faith, I wanted to be about, leading me to a definition
of my personal beliefs based on FREELOVER principles:
A FREELOVER is a
Freethinking
Realist
Exploring
Expressive
Liberty,
Openness,
Verity,
Enlightenment, &
Rationality
(also, pro-love, free from state and church authorities) ...
Freethinking : one who forms opinions on the basis of
reason independently of authority, especially one who
doubts or denies religious dogma.
Realist : one who has concern for fact or reality and
who rejects the impractical and the unreal.
Exploring : investigating, studying, analyzing, looking
into, and becoming familiar with by testing or experimenting.
Expressive : effectively conveying meaning or feeling.
Liberty : the quality or state of being free, the power to
do as one pleases, freedom from physical restraint, freedom
from arbitrary and despotic control, positive enjoyment of
various social, political, or economic rights and privileges,
and the power of choice.
Openness : free, forthright, and sincere expression.
Verity : the quality or state of being true.
Enlightenment : knowledge, insight, intuition, cognition,
awareness, rejection of traditional social / religious /
political ideas with an emphasis on rationalism, peace,
and a feeling of wholeness and completeness.
Rationality : the quality or state of being agreeable to
reason.
Pro-love, free from state and church authorities : promotion
of a sense of well-being in which the closeness of humankind
is cherished and mutually respectful encouragement of love
is the ideal by which humankind seeks ultimate peace, in
this life / at this time / on this earth, not by edict of state
and church, but by inherent virtue and admiration for the
best / most hopeful / most caring / kindest / most nurturing /
most promising side of human nature.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Generally speaking, positive atheism, secular humanism,
and the principles of enlightened freethinkers are reflected
by the following approach using FREELOVER principles
(principles of libertarianism, freedom, and pro-humanity that
are counter to conservative conformist and non-pro-humanity
approaches adopted by less enlightened individuals) ...
*** FREELOVER Principles ***
FREELOVERs know that every detail, every nuance, every
aspect of life is totally up to human beings to determine.
Therefore, FREELOVERs accept absolute and total
responsibility for our knowledge of that which we are
and for our eventual destiny.
This approach frees FREELOVERs from having to submit
to ancient authority figures.
This approach facilitates FREELOVERs' use of any and
every technology available to maximize to the full extent
of human resources, this life, this time, this one and only
sure experience we all know we have on this earth.
This approach relieves FREELOVERs from ancient
burdens of guilt regarding sex, free choice, free thinking,
search for truth, search for meaning and purpose in this
life, and longing for a rich and fulfilling existence for as
long as is humanly possible.
Since FREELOVERs don't rely on non-existent deities for
guidance, FREELOVERs are free to responsibly address
all of the issues of conscience without the burdensome
myths and lies of ancient cultures.
Since FREELOVERs are willing to face death without
fear and with a certainty of inevitable natural destiny,
FREELOVERs are free to hope for a continued pleasant
existence without the requirement for belief in mythical
figures.
FREELOVERs are also free to accept the end of life on
this earth as the likely winding down of our one and only
shot at it, thereby giving FREELOVERs a love of life
that knows no bounds, for FREELOVERs treasure each
and every moment of life we have, knowing it's almost
a certainty that this life is the entire deal.
---
Some viewpoints on god ...
Because god is not an experiential reality, he/it/she/them
is an imaginary one, a carry-over from our genetic and
memetic heritage, an evolutionary burden, if you will.
For those that respect open-minded search for truth, god
must remain in the classification of an imaginary being
until he/it/she/they become(s) real in an existential
(non-imaginary) manner.
---
Some viewpoints on what life is all about ...
And in the infinity of that which has always been
and will always be ... (Nature 1:0)
there was, is, and will always be the natural ...
(Nature 1:1)
and in the natural is the all and the nothing, the
good and the bad, the future and the past ...
(Nature 1:2)
and as is natural, a quantum event occurred in
such time and place as matched to the forever
nature of the natural ...
(Nature 1:3)
and in that a particular aggregate of events transpired
which eventually became of interest to a sentient
species ...
(Nature 1:4)
yes, an expansion of time and space did take place
in a finite part of an infinite cosmos ...
(Nature 1:5)
yes, a track was laid by which a curious form of
matter could track this expansion back to the very
fraction of a second from which this expansion took
place ...
(Nature 1:6)
and lo, over the expansion of time and space, such
monumental events transpired as would unveil an
enormous and natural set of occurrences, leading
to vast numbers of stars, and solar systems, and
life forms, but as is the destiny of such natural
matters ...
(Nature 1:7)
a form of matter responsive to stimuli in an altogether
natural part of a natural expanding world, did pursue
and endeavor to understand that which was the
natural origin of its being ...
(Nature 1:8)
and lo, as an evolved form of matter, it naturally
struggled to survive, to perpetuate its existence, to
become a sustaining being ...
(Nature 1:9)
and over a period which would come to be known
by this form of matter as time ...
(Nature 1:10)
a form of matter with the ability to make sounds and
form symbols and communicate ideas, did issue forth
proclamations and claims by which ...
(Nature 1:11)
this form of matter did journey into the unknown and
venture guesses, myths, and fantasies about its natural
world until ...
(Nature 1:12)
a series of postulations, tests, and experiments did issue
forth a profound set of reproducible, testable, and
verifiable phenomena by which this form of matter ...
(Nature 1:13)
could ascertain facts and pronunciations about the
natural evolution of its form and predecessors and
origins back to the expansion and forward to points
which ...
(Nature 1:14)
gave this form of matter a level of understanding about
its place in the expanding milieu that made it ...
(Nature 1:15)
one with its natural world, a totality of being and meaning
that revealed its true place in a natural world of wonder ...
(Nature 1:16)
far exceeding the myths and ignorance of this evolved
form of matter's pre-scientific / pre-natural postulations ...
(Nature 1:17)
and lo, it was good, this evolved matter's ability to look
out and know its natural world ...
(Nature 1:18)
nevertheless, this natural being found that existence was
challenging, competition for scarce resources and for
propagation of ideas was ongoing, denial of the positive
aspects of living in a natural world persisted, and many
amongst its midst sought to perpetuate the ancient
myths/fears, while others sought harm and ill will
towards their fellow beings ...
(Nature 1:19)
yet, this natural being discovered that by understanding
its natural world, by taking total and absolute responsibility
for improving its plight on the planet, by nurturing and
loving and learning and exploring, by reaching for the stars
with hope and search for the true meaning of a natural
existence in a natural world ...
(Nature 1:20)
all that was good and decent and honorable and worthwhile
and loving and kind and gentle and responsible and giving
and nurturing could issue forth from this natural being,
knowing that its destiny was to learn all it could and to
be all it could be in a natural world, at this place, at this
time ...
(Nature 1:21)
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
> >
> > The delusion is that by denying the existence of GOD that you are
> > somehow punishing Him for what He has allowed to happen to you.
>
> your "God tool" instead of facing
> the naturalistic manner in which the
> world operates.
You are projecting your cowardice as evident by your being fearful
about disclosing even just your first name.
Such is the sad condition of those who are angry at GOD for His
allowing trials and tribulations to remind us that the world remains a
sinful place slated for being made anew after the Lamb's Day of
Judgment.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Pramesh Rutaji
>> Those of us, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, are kept from
>> falling into falsehood.
>
> Whatever guides you, religious folks are
> just as (or more) likely to deceive, to fall
> into falsehood, as are non-religious folks,
> as they base their lives on blatant false-
> hoods (myths) that most were brain-
> washed into at a very young and vul-
> nerable age.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have
good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for
good people to do bad things, it takes religion." ~ Steven Weinberg,
"Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day. Give him a religion,
and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish." ~ Timothy Jones
--
Pramesh Rutaji
p297ton...@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply
Don Kirkman
>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> I've answered your question many many times.
>Not appropriately with either a "Yes" or a "No
Good. Let's count the number of times you've clearly answered a
question in these groups with either a "Yes" or a "No." I'd win by a
large margin, except that in fact I have responded to your stupid
question nearly as often as you've asked it. You simply don't want to
accept an obvious answer even though the whole issue is none of your
business.
> as befitting the above
>simple question but instead with a vain attempt at obfuscation. Now
>recall our written discussion in another thread that attempt is
>synonymous with failure:
If I had made a vain attempt at obfuscation then by your logic I must
have failed, so I did not obfuscate.
I'll remind you that you were the one who postulated that attempt is
synonymous with failure. I pointed out that attempts very often end
in success, not failure--and of course some attempts are suspended for
another later attempt.
>>The answer is, as I wrote again here, irrelevant, meaningless, falsely
>>Christian, and a delusional fixation.
>Your answer "Yes" was simply a lie. You are falling back and
>attempting to obfuscate again.
I am not falling back, I'm sitting in front of my computer. And I'm
not attempting of obfuscate (as though you need more obfuscation in
your thoughts and beliefs just now).
>Actually sad to note again that you are unable to publicly say "Jesus
>is LORD."
I'm sorry that you feel sadness about such trivial things as your
magical motto.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >
>
> Good.
This is what GOD wants.
> Let's count the number of times you've clearly answered a
> question in these groups with either a "Yes" or a "No."
It remains my personal choice to continue writing truthfully.
> I'd win by a
> large margin, except that in fact I have responded to your stupid
> question nearly as often as you've asked it.
You remain lost because you continue to be guided by the spirit of
error (self) instead of the Holy Spirit, Who is GOD.
> You simply don't want to
> accept an obvious answer even though the whole issue is none of your
> business.
There is no justification for lying about whether you can publicly say
"Jesus is LORD."
Bottom line:
You can not publicly say "Jesus is LORD" because the Holy Spirit has
not been willing to help you.
This does remind us of other non-christians especially Cary Kittrell:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?
May GOD soften Cary's heart, Veralein's heart, Fred's heart,
Mistylein's heart, Pro-Humanist's heart, and your heart, Don, so that
you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
What does Jesus want (WDJW) ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/11194899724b810d?
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <ach...@emory.edu> wrote ...
> [...]
>
> May GOD soften Pro-Humanist's heart [...]
God is mythical. As for a soft or hard heart,
how soft or hard were the hearts that wrote
the following biblical passages, and how soft
or hard was the God they spoke of in those
passages?
Doesn't look like soft hearts were involved in
the following. Odd, then, that you'd promote
softer hearts when the God you supposedly
believe in doesn't appear to have one, per
your ancient scriptures:
- - -
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote in part:
>
>> [...]
>>
>> May GOD soften Pro-Humanist's heart [...]
>
>God is mythical.
If that were true, cognitively-intact Don Kirkman would be able to
publicly say "Jesus is LORD" when presently it is clear he can not...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f93cbbc1af8d1661?
...and neither can cognitively-intact Cary Kittrell...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?
...and the only rational explanation is as follows:
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
Amen.
The Holy Spirit is GOD.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus...
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <ach...@emory.edu> wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote ...
>> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <ach...@emory.edu> wrote ...
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> May GOD soften Pro-Humanist's heart [...]
>> God is mythical.
>>
>> [...]
> If that were true [...]
- - -
So, What Are These Myths All About, Anyway?
(Top Posts - Distance From Belief
in theism - 071100)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/what_are_myths_about.htm
- - -
Excerpts:
Sit down, grab a pen, and write as if God was speaking ...
Go ahead, pontificate ...
And as you do, relate to what it would be like to be reaching
up to absolute irrefutable authority in days gone by ...
Cool, isn't it? ...
AND GOD SAID ...
AND GOD SMITETH ...
AND IN THE BEGINNING WAS GOD ...
AND GOD THIS ...
AND GOD THAT ...
AND GOD COMMANDS ...
AND GOD DEMANDS ...
AND GOD CONDEMNS ...
...
Heck, if I was writing and unencumbered by my desire
to seek truth and meaning in this world, I'd be gung-ho
about some kind of absolute authority figure who, merely
by invoking his name, would endorse anything and
everything I could come up with as to how humankind
should live out their lives ...
Now, if kings and queens were in the neighborhood,
I suppose it would be in my best interest to satisfy
their whims and desires, wouldn't it?
. . . . . . . . .
... anyone out there with a clue as to what it was like
to live in a pre-scientific day and age when any call to
ultimate authority would ring with absolute admiration
from authorities in power at the time given that said
authorities were the primary BENEFACTORS from
said adoration?
... humans created myth for the manipulation of their
fellow humans, no more, no less ... the claim of truth
is but a lie in disguise ... a deception ... a devious act
to deceive ... a ruse ... a falsehood ... a journey to
nowhere being that HUMANS created the whole false-
hood to manipulate humans for human-desired ends ...
...
T-H-I-N-K ... about how easy it would to be to pass
off myths to people without a clue about science and
logic and reason and the way that things in the real
world existed.
Truth? No. Myths, one and all. But yet, humans to this
very day seek to deny their knowledge of that which it
is to be a natural entity in a natural world ...
... a natural world is NEWS to those steeped in the
myth ... even now, even after all of the scientific dis-
coveries ... many humans deny the NEWS of their
natural world ...
... and so, if I were writing the absolute authority
myths of the present day and age ... my take on it
would be ...
God 1:1 Love but love not to harm.
God 1:2 Be kind and gentle and caring and sharing
but know not of the slavery which those who care
not would force you to submit to.
God 1:3 You can fantasize all you want about such
a thing as a mythical fantasy overseer looking and
acting in your best interest, but face up to it, folks,
what's best for humankind is solely and undeniably
up to humans to determine, for the best and most
hopeful attributes of goodness humankind possesses.
- - -
Oh well, my short take on the god myth scene. Maybe,
some day, humans will be willing to admit humans can
create a profound and most pro-human document
without the need to inject mythical fantasy authority
figures into the picture . . . yes, some day . . .
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/86c6d29d1ff8018f?
>
>So, What Are These Myths All About, Anyway?
As established in the above cited Usenet post, GOD is not a myth.
Instead, He is the Author of all reality.
Thus, those who deny Him ultimately are delusional, disconnected from
all reality.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
Don Kirkman
article
>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> Let's count the number of times you've clearly answered a
>> question in these groups with either a "Yes" or a "No."
>It remains my personal choice to continue writing truthfully.
It obviously is also your personal choice to continue refusing to
answer direct questions.
>> I'd win by a
>> large margin, except that in fact I have responded to your stupid
>> question nearly as often as you've asked it.
>You remain lost because you continue to be guided by the spirit of
>error (self) instead of the Holy Spirit, Who is GOD.
>> You simply don't want to
>> accept an obvious answer even though the whole issue is none of your
>> business.
>There is no justification for lying about whether you can publicly say
>"Jesus is LORD."
I have never lied about it. I have usually told you it was an
irrelevant request, of no spiritual or intellectual merit,
inconsistent with Christian teaching, and an attempt to bully others
into accepting something of importance to no one by you yourself.
I also truthfully told you yes, I am able to say that but that there
is no reason I should do so or want to.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Robert Miles
>
> God is mythical. As for a soft or hard heart,
> how soft or hard were the hearts that wrote
> the following biblical passages, and how soft
> or hard was the God they spoke of in those
> passages?
>
> Doesn't look like soft hearts were involved in
> the following. Odd, then, that you'd promote
> softer hearts when the God you supposedly
> believe in doesn't appear to have one, per
> your ancient scriptures:
>
> - - -
> http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
.
If you think Chung is worth replying to, could you leave all
the diabetes and diabetic newsgroups out of the list of
newsgroups your reply is crossposted to? The cardiology
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
> >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
> >> Let's count the number of times you've clearly answered a
> >> question in these groups with either a "Yes" or a "No."
>
> > It remains my personal choice to continue writing truthfully.
>
> It obviously is also your personal choice to continue refusing to
> answer direct questions.
My answer to the direct question "Can you publicly say 'Jesus is
LORD' ?" has always been "Yes" and now includes the following miracles
that prove that this answer remains truthful:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8B_70Jp-kc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG_YK8KBZk0
Meanwhile, you have been unable to answer the same direct question
truthfully:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f93cbbc1af8d1661?
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
you to unwittingly update folks on your still being unable to publicly
say "Jesus is LORD."
May GOD soften Veralein's heart, Fred's heart, Mistylein's heart, Pro-
Humanist's heart, Dan's heart, Jeff's heart, Cary's heart, and your
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> [nothing pertaining to the post]
Try again:
- - -
So, What Are These Myths All About, Anyway?
(Top Posts - Distance From Belief
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> It's revealing how you hide behind
>> your "God tool" instead of facing
>> the naturalistic manner in which the
>> world operates.
>
> You are projecting your cowardice [...]
You are projecting your unwillingness
to respond to any post with anything
substantive.
Try again, and do try to actually read
and respond to the entire post rather
than responding to just one sentence.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> It's revealing how you hide behind
>>> your "God tool" instead of facing
>>> the naturalistic manner in which the
>>> world operates.
>>
>> You are projecting your cowardice [...]
>
>You are projecting your unwillingness
>to respond to any post with anything
>substantive.
Still waiting for you to have the courage to type and electronically
post either "yes" or "no" as a written response to the very simple
question:
Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
Our having observed you struggle mightily to evade the above very
simple question ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/06496e786a81f89b?
... leads us to conclude that the answer is "no" as has been the case
for Cary Kittrell:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/43acbc5ea248ceee?
... and Don Kirkman:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f93cbbc1af8d1661?
May GOD soften Don's heart, Cary's heart, Veralein's heart, Fred's
heart, Dan's heart, Mistylein's heart, Jeff's heart, and your heart,
Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>You are projecting your unwillingness
>>to respond to any post with anything
>>substantive.
>
> Still waiting for you to have the courage to type and electronically
> post either "yes" or "no" as a written response to the very simple
> question:
>
> Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
>
> [...]
Jesus is myth. Lord is an ancient
word used in modern non-religious
contexts in Great Britain, but not
in the U.S.
We all are subject to naturalistic
exigencies.
- - -
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>You are projecting your unwillingness
>>>to respond to any post with anything
>>>substantive.
>>
>> Still waiting for you to have the courage to type and electronically
>> post either "yes" or "no" as a written response to the very simple
>> question:
>>
>> Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
>>
>> [...]
>
> Jesus is myth.
If that were true, you would be able to publicly say "Jesus is LORD"
since myths have no power over those who are real.
Suggested reading for those who have been following this thread of
discussion:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
Now, why are you not able to publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
"Because I AM keeping you from doing it." -- Holy Spirit
sanforized
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> You are projecting your unwillingness
>>>> to respond to any post with anything
>>>> substantive.
>>> Still waiting for you to have the courage to type and electronically
>>> post either "yes" or "no" as a written response to the very simple
>>> question:
>>>
>>> Can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
>>>
>>> [...]
>> Jesus is myth.
>
> If that were true, you would be able to publicly say "Jesus is LORD"
> since myths have no power over those who are real.
>
> Suggested reading for those who have been following this thread of
> discussion:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
>
> Now, why are you not able to publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
>
> "Because I AM keeping you from doing it." -- Holy Spirit
>
> Amen.
Whether one is a secular humanist or adheres to
one of the world religions the ideology of "how
best to live" is always the same.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote ...
>> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
>>> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> Jesus is myth.
> If that were true [...]
Jesus is myth, and you failed, once again,
to respond to the following:
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/freelover.htm
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
>> [...]
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
For Those Who Must Have Faith In ...
something ...
For those who 'just gotta believe' in ...
something/anything that might offer a sense of wholeness
and completeness ...
Wouldn't it be of inestimable value if humankind had
a choice that was of more pro-humanity, substance,
verity, logic, naturalism, and rationality than the
mystical/supernatural choices currently available?
- - -
Faith, as defined as "something believed with strong
conviction" need not be confined to the mystical/super-
natural, as "something believed with strong conviction"
can be constructed based on what we know, what we
think, and what is possible in a natural world, as follows ...
After all, if humans choose to live a life of faith, why not
choose a faith that is sane and reasonable and as veritable
and pro-human as possible?
- - -
If it's faith that is supreme and faith in ...
Something veritable/possible in a natural world ...
That you deem to be your choice as to how to live out your
one and only sure chance on this earth, at this time, in this
life, then ...
I offer the following faith for your consideration. Note that
anyone can share these concepts, based on logic and reason,
but also note that the following is offered as a faith, for those
who value faith as an absolute way of life.
- - -
I've been living based on FREELOVER principles, and
combining those principles with this faith, I suppose you
might now consider me a man of principles -and- faith
apart from the mystical/supernatural/traditional.
Feel free to compare this faith with traditional faiths and in so
doing, if you must be 'of faith', choose the faith that mates to
the essence of that which is the best within you:
- - -
*** Pro-Humanism ***
The faith of "Pro-Humanism", followers of which are
"Pro-Humanists", tenets of which are ...
o Faith in the human ability to draw on and promote the best
within each of us, responsibly addressing human needs
o Faith in exploring and researching our world of wonder, based
on the scientific method, using the result of said exploration and
research -only for- pro-human endeavors and endeavors which
impact humankind in a non-deleterious manner
o Faith in responsibly helping and sharing and caring about our
fellow humans
o Faith in the ability of humankind to face all dangers, conquer
all evils, nurture all goodness, and promote the providing of all
basic needs for all of humankind, on this earth, at this time, in
this life
o Faith in that which is the natural fate of humankind, knowing
that it's up to human beings to do our best to make life last as
long as is pleasantly and pleasurably possible (forever, if that
is within our ability or if that is within the nature of all that is
and all that can be)
o Faith in ultimate natural destiny, and in that destiny, knowing
that your reason for being is fulfilled, and you're one with that
which you were meant to be
o Faith in hope for the best and brightest ultimate destiny that
each human desires, in a pro-human manner, non-threatening
to anyone
o Faith in intelligent knowledge of the facts regarding history,
religion, non-religion, traditional mystical/supernatural faith,
Pro-Humanism, and non-faith being provided to children so
that they may intelligently make their own choices as they
mature, based on informed consent, not based on single-
mindset indoctrination into the faiths/non-faiths/beliefs/dis-
beliefs of parents/peers/guardians/churches/state or other
social/cultural influences surrounding our children
o Faith in the human ability to responsibly promote pleasure
and well-being free of guilt
o Faith in the inherent goodness of humankind, which if nurtured
and encouraged can bring forth the best that humankind can be,
but understanding that the dark side of human nature lurks within
each of us and we must constantly be diligent in controlling and
subduing that aspect of our being
o Faith in selfless but cautious love, knowing that to love is worthy,
but that love is risky, and love most precious demands not/expects
not/harms not
o Faith in a reservoir of inner human strength that can sustain and
uplift in times of darkness
o Faith that logic and reason, combined with *egalitarian* free-
dom, liberty, verity, joy, happiness, peace, fulfillment, pleasure,
prosperity, and knowledge, will one day be the guiding lights
inspiring pro-human achievements never before thought possible
o Faith in the human ability to provide medicines and plants that
can cure and ameliorate human disease and suffering
o Faith in the human ability to develop technologies that will
some day allow differences to be settled in non-aggressive
and non-injurious ways
o Faith that human behavior is explainable by the "Circle of All
That Is" and that humility and consideration of all causality is
well-advised when judging others and when judging ourselves:
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_freelover/circle_of_all_that_is.htm
o Faith that the most promising and pro-human way to deal with
the unknown resides in pro-human exploration unhindered by the
mystical/supernatural/traditional faiths:
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/philosophy_general/dealing_with_the_unknown.htm
o Faith in a better day, a better world, a better tomorrow, such
that only by working to make it so, so will it be
o Faith that only by sharing Pro-Humanism with others can
oneself and others be enabled, empowered, and emboldened
for the betterment of humankind
o Faith that all of traditional faith, distance from traditional faith,
and non-faith can love one another and work together for a better
world, despite differences on dealing with the unknown, casting
aside all which has burdened humankind 'til now, uniting for that
which strengthens us and enriches us in a common bond of all
humans for all humans
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5f6ca8a70d9e98d0?
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
May reading the following help you understand the reality of GOD:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/b899ce5cc1a77d9d?
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
LORD." (Proverbs 16:33)
Amen.
A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/085dcffcafb7e4e2?
Nothing happens by chance because everything happens only as GOD
allows it (Ecclesiastes 9:11):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?
Sign that GOD can easily unleash an H5N1 Pandemic (Pan-Flu) at any
time:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?
What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
catastrophic Pan-Flu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May you and other dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a
blessedly wonderful 2009th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus
Christ as our Messiah, the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
Hunger is the physical "hearts burning" feeling that unlocks the 4
mysteries of the "Road to Emmaus" adventure described in Luke 24:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
Moreover, being hungrier is the key to being Jesus' disciples:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Jesus is LORD, forever !!!
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier for mind, body, and soul:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Sanity's Little Helper
posteth:
> Dear Pro-Humanist,
>
> May reading the following help you understand the reality of GOD:
>
> http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/fraudreport.html
:-)
--
David Silverman
aa #2208
Defender of Civilisation
http://dave-grumpygit.blogspot.com/
Not authentic without this signature.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
On August 6, 2008, a poster said:
> So, tell me about your Faith in Christ.
I responded:
The faith of a child (converted to christianity
at age 8, not sure if that was/is the 'norm' for
a preacher's kid, but no doubt, early conver-
sions or water sprinklings are an endeavor by
the faithful to pass their faith on to their off-
spring) was damaged by the pervasive anti-
humanism present in the bible as well as by
the deleterious impact that has had on human-
kind throughout history and in modern times.
That, and the lack of evidence supporting the
existence of -or- pro-humanism of -or- inter-
action by -or- prayer-answering impacts of a
God, along with the impact of 'real life' events,
eventually led to my view that religion is *not*
the positive force that its proponents promote
it as, but instead, is a net negative due to its
anti-human influences, due to its position in
opposition to freethought, and due to its
threats and the manner in which it harbors
antipathy for those deemed outside the realm
of the 'saved' -or- outside the realm of the
silently acquiescent -or- outside the realm of
the religious.
For a better way, see
- - -
Faith in Pro-Humanism
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/prohumanism.htm
- - -
- - -
FREELOVER Principles
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/freelover.htm
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> On August 6, 2008, a poster said:
>
> > So, tell me about your Faith in Christ.
>
> I responded:
>
> The faith of a child (converted to christianity
No such thing as conversion.
A person becomes a Christian by being reborn of water and the Holy
Spirit, thereby becoming a new creature in Christ.
The latter does mean a "change of heart" has occurred so that there is
now love for Jesus in ones heart. This is a miracle that requires
divine intervention.
Love that resides in ones heart is true love, which never fails.
Truth is simple :-)
Dear Pro-Humanist,
While being mindful of our past written discussions that resulted in
your panic-stricken flight:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5f6ca8a70d9e98d0?
Don Kirkman
article
<c239ab12-24fe-4b93...@h20g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>:
>No such thing as conversion.
>A person becomes a Christian by being reborn of water and the Holy
>Spirit, thereby becoming a new creature in Christ.
>The latter does mean a "change of heart"
Which is precisely the definition of a conversion; the very words used
in the Bible mean a turning around, a return to whatever god applies,
a repentance, a changed person, a change of heart (no, not a
transplant, so don't go all literal again).
Greek: metanoeo- to change one's mind or purpose, to repent
Hebrew: "shuv" - Hebrew for "turn" or "return" - the same root used
for the Hebrew word for repentance: teshuvah.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>
>
> >A person becomes a Christian by being reborn of water and the Holy
> >Spirit, thereby becoming a new creature in Christ.
>
> >The latter does mean a "change of heart"
>
>
> Which is precisely the definition of a conversion; the very words used
> in the Bible mean a turning around, a return to whatever god applies,
> a repentance, a changed person, a change of heart (no, not a
> transplant, so don't go all literal again).
The very words used in the Bible are not "conversion" but are the
LORD's words:
"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of GOD unless he is
born again." -- LORD Jesus Christ (John 3:3)
Amen.
> Greek: metanoeo- to change one's mind or purpose, to repent
> Hebrew: "shuv" - Hebrew for "turn" or "return" - the same root used
> for the Hebrew word for repentance: teshuvah.
Changing one's mind is **not** a "change of heart."
Bottom line:
Instead of being converted to becoming a Christian, a person is "born
again" in order to become a Christian.
May GOD soften your heart, Don, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus, thereby becoming a new creature in Christ:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://WDJW.net
Don Kirkman
article
>Don Kirkman wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> >No such thing as conversion.
>> >A person becomes a Christian by being reborn of water and the Holy
>> >Spirit, thereby becoming a new creature in Christ.
>> >The latter does mean a "change of heart"
>> Which is precisely the definition of a conversion; the very words used
>> in the Bible mean a turning around, a return to whatever god applies,
>> a repentance, a changed person, a change of heart (no, not a
>> transplant, so don't go all literal again).
>The very words used in the Bible are not "conversion" but are the
>LORD's words:
>
>"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of GOD unless he is
>born again." -- LORD Jesus Christ (John 3:3)
Actually the very words were Greek, not English.
>> Greek: metanoeo- to change one's mind or purpose, to repent
>> Hebrew: "shuv" - Hebrew for "turn" or "return" - the same root used
>> for the Hebrew word for repentance: teshuvah.
>Changing one's mind is **not** a "change of heart."
You continue to resort to the minimalist literalism you use to avoid
recognizing the truth. In the Biblical culture the heart is the seat
of the ideas, the mind, not of the emotions as in Western culture, so
changing one's mind is *precisely* a change of heart.
Let's continue the language lesson by looking at the other meanings
you chose, in your search for "truth," to ignore:
to change one's . . . purpose
to repent
"turn" or "return"
repentance
>Bottom line:
>
>Instead of being converted to becoming a Christian, a person is "born
>again" in order to become a Christian.
>
>May GOD soften your heart, Don, so that you would come to trust the
>truth, Who is Jesus, thereby becoming a new creature in Christ:
>
>http://T3WiJ.com
>
>Amen.
>
>Love in the truth,
>
>Andrew <><
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>>> > No such thing as conversion.
>
>>> > A person becomes a Christian by being reborn of water and the Holy
>>> > Spirit, thereby becoming a new creature in Christ.
>
>>> > The latter does mean a "change of heart"
>
>>> Which is precisely the definition of a conversion; the very words used
>>> in the Bible mean a turning around, a return to whatever god applies,
>>> a repentance, a changed person, a change of heart (no, not a
>>> transplant, so don't go all literal again).
>
>>The very words used in the Bible are not "conversion" but are the
>>LORD's words:
>>
>>"I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of GOD unless he is
>>born again." -- LORD Jesus Christ (John 3:3)
Amen.
>Actually the very words were Greek, not English.
Actually for those of us who are receiving the counsel of the Holy
Spirit, the words are simply living.
>>> Greek: metanoeo- to change one's mind or purpose, to repent
>>> Hebrew: "shuv" - Hebrew for "turn" or "return" - the same root used
>>> for the Hebrew word for repentance: teshuvah.
>
>>Changing one's mind is **not** a "change of heart."
>
> You continue to resort to the minimalist literalism you use to avoid
> recognizing the truth.
The counsel of the Holy Spirit simply results in an understanding that
is beyond the comprehension of non-christians like you.
> In the Biblical culture the heart is the seat
> of the ideas, the mind, not of the emotions as in Western culture, so
> changing one's mind is *precisely* a change of heart.
There is no such thing as Biblical culture.
Instead, what is written in the Bible about the heart that is germane
to this discussion and allows us to understand that the heart is
distinct from the mind so that willfully changing one's mind does not
mean there has been a change of heart are as follows:
"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can
understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)
Amen.
"O righteous GOD, Who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the
violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure." (Psalm 7:9)
Amen.
"Test me, O LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind;" (Psalm
26:2)
Amen.
"Who endowed the heart with wisdom or gave understanding to the mind?"
(Job 38:36)
Amen.
"I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning
heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will
there ever be." -- LORD Almighty GOD speaking to Solomon (1 Kings
3:12)
Amen.
Bottom line:
The heart and mind are distinct. Within the heart there is deceit
countered by love, trust, joy, wisdom, and discernment. Within the
mind there are erroneous thoughts countered by knowledge,
intelligence, and understanding.
May GOD soften your heart, Don, so that you would come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> On August 6, 2008, a poster said:
>>
>> > So, tell me about your Faith in Christ.
>>
>> I responded:
>>
>> The faith of a child (converted to christianity
>> at age 8 ...
> No such thing as conversion.
>
> A person becomes a Christian by being reborn of water and the Holy
> Spirit, thereby becoming a new creature in Christ.
>
> [...]
How does one get a pleasant immortality?
(originally posted June 14, 2008)
- - -
Strictly speaking, for those who believe
in the christian bible, the following must
be done to get a pleasant immortality and
to relieve oneself of the worry that by not
abiding by *all* of the following -22- re-
quirements, one might place their pleasant
immortality at risk.
(source for the following listed near the
end of this post, and the following is not
complete, as other biblical passages would
have to be adhered to in order to insure
that one was not in violation of any bibli-
cal statement that might place one's plea-
sant immortality ticket at risk)
1. believe that the Jesus of the New
Testament was a reality
2. be baptized
3. be part of a house in which belief
that the Jesus of the New Testament
was a reality is present (by the head
of the house?)
4. be just
5. have faith
6. be righteous, and be so righteous that
you exceed the righteousness of the
scribes and Pharisees (not sure how
the righteousness of a group of people
would be determined, as certainly, any
group of people have many acts which
wouldn't be considered righteous)
7. confess, orally or, I assume, if one
can't talk, one could confess by com-
municating the following in some other
way, that the Jesus of the New Testament
was a reality, and that God raised him
from the dead
8. be worthy of the grace of God
9. be worthy of mercy, be washed of
regeneration (not sure what that means),
be renewed by the Holy Ghost (not
sure what that means)
10. have worthy works
11. have worthy ways, worthy doings
12. do what is lawful and right
13. have worthy words
14. keep the commandments
15. feed the hungry, provide drink for
the thirsty, take in the strangers,
clothe the naked, visit the sick,
visit the imprisoned
16. love the Lord thy God (not sure
who that refers to, as the word
'lord' has multiple meanings, from
God to Jesus to one having power
and authority over others, to one
that has achieved mastery, to man
of high rank or position, so to be
safe, love all those guys) with all
your soul and all your strength
and all your mind
17. love your neighbor as yourself
(difficult to do if your neighbor
is acting in a manner harmful to
your own welfare, like sleeping
with your wife or girlfriend, or
threatening your life or welfare,
but just to be on the safe side,
love is required)
18. do good
19. do good deeds
20. be a doer of the law
21. when it comes to salvation, par-
tipate in that endeavor with fear
and trembling
22. have faith and have works that
are worthy, for faith without works
is dead
- - -
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html
- - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now, for those who think they've played
it as safe as possible by doing their best
to adhere to the above, well, the follow-
ing contradicts that notion, at least the
left-hand side does, placing one in a 'no
win' situation -if- one is attempting to
avoid risk by following ancient religious
instructions:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/christians_hell.html
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
"I am the way and the truth and the life." -- LORD Jesus Christ (John
14:6)
Amen.
"For GOD so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." --
LORD Jesus Christ (John 3:16)
Amen.
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> ... is Jesus Christ :-)
>
> "I am the way and the truth and the life."
>
> [...]
Myth, with loads of evidence demonstrating
its mythical nature, and not one iota of evi-
dence demonstrating it's anything other than
mythical.
Same applies regardless of which human or
god you try to stick the "belief in required
for immortality" attribute on.
Naturalism, therein resides your only legitimate
hope.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote in part:
>
> > ... is Jesus Christ :-)
> >
Amen.
> Myth, with loads of evidence demonstrating
> its mythical nature, and not one iota of evi-
> dence demonstrating it's anything other than
> mythical.
Incorrect.
Clearly you remain deluded as has been shown in another Usenet
discussion thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d14f6bf3ecc7c6db?
Truth is simple.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
For consideration of the likelihood that Jesus was a mythical
creation -or- an overly ambitious series of creative extrapo-
lations pertaining to a human who, if he even existed, had
neither divine nor extraordinary attributes anywhere near
those credited to him in the gospels, review the following ...
- - -
Q - The Hypothetical Gospel (PBS special: From Jesus to Christ)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/hypothetical.html
More About Q and the Gospel of Thomas
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/qthomas.html
Excerpt: "... The 'recovery' of the Q gospel has stimulated
a debate about the nature early Christian communities, and
by extension, the origins of Christianity itself.
One scholar, Burton Mack, has advanced a radical thesis:
that at least some Christian communities did not see Jesus
as a Messiah; they saw him as a teacher of wisdom, a man
who tried to teach others how to live. For them, Jesus was
not divine, but fully human.
These first followers of Jesus differed from other Christians
whose ritual and practice was centered on the death and the
resurrection of Jesus. Their did not emerge as the 'winners'
of history; perhaps because the maintaining the faith required
the existence of a story that included not only the life of Jesus
but also his Passion."
The Atlantic Monthly (Dec 1996) - Search for a No-Frills Jesus
(link now requires a subscription for viewing)
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/96dec/jesus/jesus.htm
Excerpt: "... according to a largely North American cadre of
biblical scholars that includes Mack, who in 1993 published
a book called The Lost Gospel containing his own Q rendition,
and James M. Robinson, the founder of the International Q
Project and a colleague of Mack's at Claremont, the teachings
of Jesus in Q hold the key to an understanding of Jesus that
is fundamentally non-Christian.
According to these scholars, the authors of Q did not view
Jesus as 'the Christ' (that is, as 'the anointed one,' the promised
Messiah), or as the redeemer who had atoned for their sins by
his crucifixion, or as the son of God who rose from the dead.
Instead, they say, Q's authors esteemed Jesus as simply a roving
sage who preached a life of possessionless wandering and full
acceptance of one's fellow human beings, no matter how dis-
reputable or marginal. In that respect, they say, he was a Jesus
for the America of the third millennium, a Jesus with little super-
natural baggage but much respect for cultural diversity. ..."
- - -
Jesus: Fact or Fiction?
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/robert_price/price-rankin/index.shtml
- - -
The following is excerpted from an article by pastor William
Edelen at
http://secweb.infidels.org/?kiosk=articles&id=723
"There is a sin among a large segment of the Christian clergy that
I find despicable. It is the sin of omission, the sin of silence. It is
the sin of promoting falsehoods in order to hold your job. It is
the sin of not sharing with a congregation what you know to be
true about the bible and Christianity.
Those graduating in religious studies from every major university
in America, as well as every major theological seminary that is
independent of Christian financial pressure, know certain facts
to be true.
They know that:
1. The entire bible is saturated with common mythological themes,
from the creation and flood myth to virgin birth and resurrected
hero mythology.
2. The stories of the patriarchs in the Old Testament are known as
'temple legends' to enhance the history of the Hebrew people and
are mostly fictional.
3. The gospels were not written by anyone who knew Jesus
personally.
4. The 'Christ' myths and formulas are direct copies of Zoroastrian
myths adopted by the Jesus sect.
5. These facts, with others, have been known for years, and taught
by internationally respected scholars from major universities world
wide."
- - -
316 verses in the Quran which mention Jesus ...
http://tinyurl.com/Jesus-Quran-verses
- - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The gospel writers are unknown - see the follow-
ing Encyclopedia Britannica details for reference
(the following information was originally available
for free, without a subscription, but that may no
longer be the case [their policies are varying and
unpredictable], and you may have to subscribe or,
after an initial 'free' subscription, pay to access
the following):
The key words to look for here are "anonymous" and
"unknown" ...
- - -
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=119714&tocid=73435#73435.toc
- - -
Writer of Matthew
Excerpt: "... The Gospel According to Matthew - Matthew
is the first in order of the four canonical Gospels and is often
called the "ecclesiastical" Gospel, both because it was much
used for selections for pericopes for the church year and
because it deals to a great extent with the life and conduct
of the church and its members.
Matthew gave the frame, the basic shape and colour, to the
early church's picture of Jesus. Matthew used almost all of
Mark, upon which it is to a large extent structured, some
material peculiar only to Matthew, and sayings from Q as
they serve the needs of the church.
This Gospel expands and enhances the stark description
of Jesus from Mark. The fall of Jerusalem (AD 70) had
occurred, and this dates Matthew later than Mark, c. 70-80.
Although there is a Matthew named among the various lists
of Jesus' disciples, more telling is the fact that the name of
Levi, the tax collector who in Mark became a follower of
Jesus, in Matthew is changed to Matthew. It would appear
from this that Matthew was claiming apostolic authority for
his Gospel through this device but that the writer of Matthew
is probably anonymous. ..."
- - -
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=119714&tocid=73430
- - -
Writers of Matthew, Mark, and Luke
Excerpt: "The two-source hypothesis is predicated upon
the following observations: Matthew and Luke used Mark,
both for its narrative material as well as for the basic
structural outline of chronology of Jesus' life.
Matthew and Luke use a second source, which is called
Q (from German Quelle, "source"), not extant, for the
sayings (logia) found in common in both of them. Thus,
Mark and Q are the main components of Matthew and
Luke.
In both Matthew and Luke there is material that is peculiar
to each of their Gospels; this material is probably drawn
from some other sources, which may be designated M
(material found only in Matthew's special source) and L
(material found only in Luke's special source). This is
known as the four-document hypothesis, which was
elaborated in 1925 by B.H. Streeter, an English biblical
scholar.
The placement of Q material in Luke and Matthew
disagrees at certain points according to the needs
and theologies of the addressees of the gospels, but
in Matthew the Marcan chronology is the basic scheme
into which Q is put. Mark's order is kept, on the whole,
by Matthew and Luke, but, where it differs, at least one
agrees with Mark.
After chapter 4 in Matthew and Luke, not a single
passage from Q is in the same place. Q was a source
written in Greek as was Mark, which can be demon-
strated by word agreement (not possible, for example,
with a translation from Aramaic, although perhaps the
Greek has vestiges of Semitic structure form).
... Though the author of Mark is probably unknown,
authority is traditionally derived from a supposed
connection with the Apostle Peter, who had transmitted
the traditions before his martyr death under Nero's
persecution (c. 64-65). ...
- - -
Writer of Luke
Excerpt: "... Approximately one-third of Luke is from
Mark (about 60 percent of Mark); 20 percent of Luke
is derived from Q (sometimes arranged with parts of L).
Almost 50 percent is from Luke's special source (L),
especially the infancy narratives of John the Baptist and
Jesus, and parables peculiar to Luke (e.g., the prodigal
son, the good Samaritan, the rich fool). L material is
also interwoven into the Passion narrative.
While Matthew structured similar teaching materials in
his five discourses, Luke places them in an extensive
travel account that takes Jesus from Galilee to Judaea
via Jericho to Jerusalem. This is similar to the ways in
which Acts is structured on the principle of bringing
the word from Jerusalem to Rome (see below).
The author has been identified with Luke, "the beloved
physician," Paul's companion on his journeys, presumably
a Gentile (Col. 4:14 and 11; cf. II Tim. 4:11, Philem. 24).
There is no Papias fragment concerning Luke, and only
late-2nd-century traditions claim (somewhat ambiguously)
that Paul was the guarantor of Luke's Gospel traditions.
The Muratorian Canon refers to Luke, the physician,
Paul's companion; Irenaeus depicts Luke as a follower
of Paul's gospel. Eusebius has Luke as an Antiochene
physician who was with Paul in order to give the Gospel
apostolic authority.
References are often made to Luke's medical language,
but there is no evidence of such language beyond that
to which any educated Greek might have been exposed.
Of more import is the fact that in the writings of Luke
specifically Pauline ideas are significantly missing; while
Paul speaks of the death of Christ, Luke speaks rather of
the suffering, and there are other differing and discrepant
ideas on Law and eschatology.
In short, the author of this gospel remains unknown.
Luke can be dated c. 80. There is no conjecture about its
place of writing, except that it probably was outside of
Palestine because the writer had no accurate idea of its
geography. ..."
- - -
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=119714&tocid=73438
- - -
Writer of John
Excerpt: "... Irenaeus calls John the beloved disciple who
wrote the Gospel in Ephesus. Papias mentions John the
son of Zebedee, the disciple, as well as another John, the
presbyter, who might have been at Ephesus. From internal
evidence the Gospel was written by a beloved disciple
whose name is unknown.
Because both external and internal evidence are doubtful,
a working hypothesis is that John and the Johannine letters
were written and edited somewhere in the East (perhaps
Ephesus) as the product of a "school," or Johannine
circle, at the end of the 1st century. The addressees
were Gentile Christians, but there is accurate knowledge
and much reference to Palestine, which might be a
reflection of early Gospel tradition. ..."
- - -
So, unknown, anonymous, unknown, and unknown about
sum it up, with "Q" a definite unknown with no name.
- - -
As for the Writer of the Gospel of Thomas
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=109559&tocid=61916
The Coptic Gospel of Thomas (written in the 2nd century
by Gnostic Christians; i.e., heretical believers in esoteric,
dualistic doctrines), which was found in 1945 in Naj'
Hammadi (Egypt), is an example of such extracanonical
literature.
It contains 114 sayings of Jesus loosely strung together,
which have some points of contact with the sayings of
Jesus in the canonical Gospels. But this Gospel has no
earthly, historical contours in its account of Jesus (e.g.,
no accounts of the Passion and Easter).
As a bearer of heavenly revelation in this Gospel, Jesus
instructs the esoteric circle of his disciples about the
foreign world of matter that they must renounce in order
to participate in the imperishable, transcendent world of
light from which they originate. The Gospel of Thomas,
thus, is of no use as a source for the historical Jesus. ..."
- - -
Genealogies of Jesus from Matthew and Luke (David to Jesus)
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/gen_ml.html
Genealogies of Jesus from Matthew and 1 Chronicles
(From David to the Babylonian Captivity)
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/gen_mc.html
Those who are not with Jesus are against him.
Those who are not against Jesus are for him.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/withme.html
If Jesus bears witness for himself, his witness will not be true.
Jesus bears witness for himself, yet his witness is true.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/Jesus_witness.html
Jesus came to bring peace.
Jesus did not come to bring peace.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/sword.html
There are some things that Jesus lacks the power to do.
Jesus is all-powerful.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/power.html
Per the Old Testament, honor your parents.
Per the Jesus of the New Testament, disrespect and hate your parents.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/parents.html
Jesus was silent in his trial before Pilate.
Jesus made lengthy speeches in his trial before Pilate.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/speech.html
Both thieves reviled Jesus.
Only one thief reviled Jesus.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/reviled.html
The disciples were frightened when they saw Jesus.
The disciples were gladdened when they saw Jesus.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/frightened.html
Jesus judges everyone.
Jesus judges no one.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/Judge_Jesus.html
It is possible to fall from grace.
It is not possible to fall from grace.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/fall_from.html
Jesus said that he'd return before his disciples can
preach throughout Israel.
Jesus said that he'd return after the gospel
is preached throughout the world.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/return.html
No, the gospel is not to be preached to the Gentiles and Samaritans.
Yes, the gospel is to be preached to everyone, including the Gentiles
and Samaritans.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/samaritans.html
Christians must obey the laws of the Old Testament.
Christians are not bound by Old Testament laws.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/otlaw.html
Humans are to serve God only.
Some humans must serve other humans.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/serve.html
The true followers of Christ routinely perform the following
tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2)speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents,
4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching
them.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/16.html#17
- - -
Book List: Christian Criticism
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/books_christian_criticism.htm
- - -
The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ?
Challenging the Existence of an Historical Jesus
by Earl J. Doherty
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0968601405
Excerpt: "From the Back Cover
Why are the events of the Gospel story, and its central
character Jesus of Nazareth, not found in the New Testament
epistles?
Why does Paul's divine Christ seem to have no connection
to the Gospel Jesus, but closely resembles the many pagan
savior gods of the time who lived only in myth?
Why, given the spread of Christianity across the Roman
Empire in the first century, did only one Christian community
compose a story of Jesus' life and death-the Gospel of
Mark-while every other Gospel simply copied and reworked
the first one?
Why is every detail in the Gospel story of Jesus' trial and
crucifixion drawn from passages in the Old Testament?
The answer to these and other questions surrounding the
New Testament will come as a shock to those who imagine
that the origins of Christianity and the figure of Jesus are
securely represented by Christian tradition and the Gospels.
With the arrival of the third millennium, the time has come
to face the stunning realization that for the last 1900 years,
Christianity has revered a founder and icon of the faith who
probably never existed."
- - -
The Jesus Mysteries (092100)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/jesus_mysteries.htm
"Preface : CNN posted information today,
9/21/00, which pertains to a controversial
subject, Jesus Christ, said subject having
stirred up emotions on all sides of the issue,
amongst disbelievers / doubters / believers. ..."
- - -
A few comments from yours truly ...
So, some questions regarding the New Testament ...
Who wrote the biblical gospel of John, for example?
We know not, we only know it was written in Greek.
Who told the mysterious writer(s) of John about what
Jesus said some 70 years or so before the mysterious
writer(s) of John wrote his/their document? Probably
religious folks influenced by other writings and faiths
of the time.
Certainly, the evidence points to the writer(s) of Mark,
another document written in Greek, as the originators
of the Jesus Christ spin on previous christ myths, as
well as the mysterious writers of the mysterious "Q"
document.
What did Jesus write? Nothing that we know of, giving
one pause to ponder if he really existed at all, being that
you'd think a son of god would be able-willing-ready to
pass on the knowledge of the mysterious other-world,
in this, his one sure shot at it, in an official written "holy"
document of major importance to humankind.
Were there a substantial number of other faiths (far earlier
than the Jesus Christ of the New Testamyth would have
had to exist) that had a son of god as part of their religion?
Yes.
Do Parts of the Bible Come From Pagan Mythology?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa.htm
Key Excerpts:
"... Pagan spirituality in ancient times was composed of two
components:
o The Outer Mysteries consisted of Pagan beliefs and practices
which were widely disseminated and taught to the general public.
Knowledge of these has been preserved in historical records.
o The Inner Mysteries were revealed only to those who had
been initiated into the Pagan religions. The initiates learned that
Osiris-Dionysus was not a historical person. His legends were
simple 'spiritual allegories encoding spiritual teachings.'
---
Late in the 4th century CE, Christianity was established as the
state religion. Pagans were given the choice of converting to
Christianity, being exterminated or being exiled. Their temples
were either stolen for use as Christian churches, or destroyed.
Eventually, detailed knowledge of the inner mysteries was lost.
The core of the Outer and Inner mysteries was a mythical,
male entity who was part god and part human -- often referred
to as a 'godman.' The biographies of these godmen were
consistent from religion to religion. The main difference
among the faiths was his name ...
o Alexandria: Aion
o Asia Minor: Attis
o Babylonia: Antiochus
o Egypt: Osiris
o Greece: Dionysus, Asclepius
o Syria: Adonis
o Italy: Bacchus
o Persia: Mithras
These were viewed as mythical characters. There were also some
self-proclaimed godmen -- humans who actually lived on earth.
Two are:
o Samos, Italy: Pythagoras (569 to circa 475 BCE)
o Sicily: Empedocles (circa 450 to 390 BCE)
---
Osiris in Egypt may have been the first godman. His story has
been found recorded in pyramid texts which were written prior
to 2,500 BCE.
These saviors were truly interchangeable. Coins have been found
with Dionysus on one side and Mithras on the other. A person
who was initiated into one of the mysteries had no difficulty
switching to another Pagan mystery religion.
In the 3rd century CE, these godmen were referred to by the
composite name 'Osiris-Dionysus.' Authors Timothy Freke
and Peter Gandy have used this term in their book 'The Jesus
Mysteries.'
---
Life events shared by Osiris-Dionysus and Jesus:
The following stories appear both in the Gospels and in the
myths of many of the godmen:
Conception:
o God was his father. This was believed to be literally true
in the case of Osiris-Dionysus; their God came to earth and
engaged in sexual intercourse with a human. The father of
Jesus is God in the form of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18).
o A human woman, a virgin, was his mother.
Birth:
o He was born in a cave or cowshed. Luke 2:7 mentions that
Jesus was placed in a manger - an eating trough for animals.
An early Christian tradition said that the manger was in a cave.
o His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens.
Ministry:
o At a marriage ceremony, he performed the miracle of converting
water into wine.
o He was powerless to perform miracles in his home town.
o His followers were born-again through baptism in water.
o He rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records
that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
o He had 12 disciples.
o He was accused of licentious behavior.
Execution, resurrection, etc:
o He was killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
o He died 'as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.'
o He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
o After death, he descended into hell.
o On the third day after his death, he returned to life.
o The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female
followers.
o He later ascended to heaven.
His titles:
o God made flesh.
o Savior of the world.
o Son of God.
Beliefs about the Godman:
o He is 'God made man,' and equal to the Father.
o He will return in the last days.
o He will judge the human race at that time.
o Humans are separated from God by original sin. The
godman's sacrificial death reunites the believer with God
and atones for the original sin.
All of the Pagan myths had been circulating for centuries before
Jesus birth (circa 4 to 7 BCE). It is obvious that if any copying
occurred, it was the followers of Jesus incorporating into his
biography the myths and legends of Osiris-Dionysus, not
vice-versa.
---
Life events shared by Jesus and one other godman:
Some stories appear both in Jesus' biography and in the legends
of a single godman:
Mother's pregnancy:
o It was a common belief among early Christians that Mary was
pregnant for only seven months. This legend is preserved in the
Gospel of the Hebrews. Although this gospel was widely used
by early Christians, it was never accepted into the official canon.
Semele, mother of Dionysus, was also believed to have had
a 7 month pregnancy.
Virgin birth:
o Author William Harwood has written that Jesus' "equation
in Greek eyes with the resurrected savior-god Dionysus led
an interpolator to insert a virgin-birth myth into the gospel now
known as Matthew."
Birth Witnesses:
o The gospel of Matthew records that Jesus was visited by an
unknown number of wise men, called Magi.
- Freke & Gandy identify them as followers of the godman
Mithras from Persia.
- Most other sources believe that they were Zoroastrian priests
from Persia who were experts in astrology. There is a Zoroastrian
belief 'that a son of Zoroaster will be born many years after his
death by a virgin...This son will apparantly [sic] raise the dead
and crush the forces of evil. Later Christians got rather excited
about this apparant [sic] pagan prophecy of the coming of the
Messiah...'
o The gospel of Luke records that Jesus was visited by three
shepherds. Mithra the godman from Persia was also visited
shortly after birth by three shepherds.
o The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. A Pagan
belief from the 6th century BCE states that these are the
precise materials to use when worshiping God.
Healing:
o Jesus is recorded throughout the gospels as healing the
sick and restoring the dead to life. So was Asclepius, a
Greek godman. Pagans and early Christians debated who
was the more effective healer.
Ministry:
o Jesus appeared as a wandering holy man who is later
transfigured in the presence of some of his disciples.
Dionysus was portrayed in the same manner in Euripides'
play The Bacchae, written in 410 BCE.
Miracles:
o Both Jesus and Empedocles were recorded as teaching
spiritual truths, curing illness, foretelling the future,
controlling the wind and rain, and raising people from
the dead.
o Both Mithra and Jesus performed many healings of the sick
and mentally ill; both raised the dead.
o Mark, chapter 5 describes Jesus driving demons from a man
into a herd of about 2,000 pigs who rushed over a cliff and
drowned. In Eleusis, about 2,000 initiates would bathe in the
sea. Each had a young pig to which the believers' sins would
be transferred. The pigs were then chased over a chasm and
killed.
Fishing:
o John 21:11 records that Jesus performed a miracle which
enabled Simon Peter to catch exactly 153 fish. The Pagan
Pythagoras considered 153 a sacred number. The ratio of
153 to 265 was referred to by the Pagan Archimedes as
'the measure of the fish.' That ratio is used to generate
a fish-like shape using two circles. The sign of the fish
was used by the early Christians as their main symbol.
Arrest:
o Both celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples
before his death.
o Dionysus is described in Euripides' play The Bacchae
as bringing a new religion to the people, being plotted
against by the leaders, being arrested and appearing
before the political ruler. Dionysus said to his captors
'You know not what you are doing..,'" almost replicating
Jesus' words at the cross. He was unjustly accused and
executed. All of these themes are seen in the Gospels.
Crucifixion & resurrection:
o An ancient Greek amulet has been preserved from the
3rd century CE. It shows a man being crucified on
a Roman cross. The caption reads 'Orpheus Bacchus'
one of the pseudonyms of Osiris-Dionysus. A photograph
can be seen at Amazon.com:
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0722536763.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
o Jesus' body was wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh
and aloe. Osiris was also said to have been wrapped in linen
and anointed with myrrh.
Again, the godmen myths had been circulating well before
Jesus birth. The Christians would have copied earlier Pagan
material, not vice-versa.
---
... Freke & Gandy have concluded that the original, main
Christian movement was Gnostic Christianity.
They kept their inner mysteries secret, revealing them only
to those who have been initiated into the faith.
Some early non_Gnostic, 'literalist' Christians were unaware
of the inner mysteries of Gnosticism. They came to accept
the Gnostic outer mysteries and their myth of a godman
savior as an actual description of the historical Jesus. The
literalist Christians, being ignorant of the inner mysteries,
did not realize that the godman story was only a legend
about a mythical being. Decades later, literalist Christianity
became the dominant movement. They oppressed and
exterminated the Gnostics. ..."
- - -
When was the New Testament written? Note that
no documents were written during the period of
time the Jesus Christ as described in the gospels
would had to have lived. These date estimates
are assembled based on information from a table
on page 451 and from information on holy books
on pages 451 to 453 of "Webster's New World
Book of Facts":
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0028634853
1. James ~ + 1,948 years ago
2. Galatians ~1,947 years ago
3. 1 Thessalonians ~1,950 to ~1,946 years ago
3. 2 Thessalonians ~1,950 to ~1,946 years ago
4. 1 Corinthians ~1,943 years ago
4. 2 Corinthians ~1,943 years ago
5. Philemon ~1,940 to ~1,938 years ago
6. Philippians ~1,937 years ago
7. 1 Timothy ~ + 1,936 years ago
7. 2 Timothy ~ + 1,936 years ago
7. Titus ~ + 1,936 years ago
7. 1 Peter ~ + 1,936 years ago
7. 2 Peter ~ + 1,936 years ago
8. Mark ~ + 1,930 years ago
8. Matthew ~ + 1,930 years ago
9. Luke ~1,930 to ~1,920 years ago
9. Acts ~1,930 to ~1,920 years ago
9. Jude ~1,925 to ~1,920 years ago
10. Hebrews ~1,920 to ~1,910 years ago
11. Revelation ~1,919 to ~1,904 years ago
12. John ~1,910 to ~1,900 years ago
12. 1 John ~1,910 to 1,900 years ago
12. 2 John ~1,910 to 1,900 years ago
12. 3 John ~1,910 to 1,900 years ago
13. Romans ~1,880 years ago
14. Ephesians ~1,860 years ago
14. Colossians ~1,860 years ago
- - -
The Other Jesus (Newsweek - March 27, 2000)
[article no longer available at the Newsweek web site; you
can, however, find it transcribed to other web sites or you
may purchase it via the Newsweek archives site]
Excerpt: "To Christians, Jesus is the Son of God. But the
world's other great religions have their own visions of a
legendary figure. ... the lack of extra-Biblical evidence for
the existence of Jesus has led more than one critic to
conclude that he is a Christian fiction created by the early
church. ... Christian persecution of the Jews made dialogue
about Jesus impossible in the Middle Ages ...
What Muslims believe about Jesus comes from the Qur'an-
not the New Testament, which they consider tainted by
human error. They also draw upon their own oral traditions ...
the infant Jesus announces that he is God's prophet, though
not God's son, since Allah is 'above having a son' according
to the Qur'an. ...
In India there is a strong tradition that the teenage Jesus
slipped away from his parents, journeyed across Southeast
Asia learning yogic meditation and returned home to become
a guru to the Jews ... To Hindus, India is the Holy Land, its
sacred mountains and rivers enlivened by more than 300,000
local deities. It is only natural, then, that Jesus would come
to India to learn the secrets of unlocking his own inherent
divinity. ...
The life stories of Jesus and the Buddha are strikingly similar ...
when Buddhists encounter Christianity they depersonalize
the Jesus who walked this earth and transform him into a
figure more like Buddha. ... He believed in sin, which is not
a Buddhist concept. Jesus did not teach compassion as
a way of removing bad karma, nor did he see life as a cycle
of death and rebirth. In short, says the Dalai Lama, trying
to meld Jesus into Buddha 'is like putting a yak's head on
a sheep's body.' It doesn't work. ..."
- - -
I've posted a vast amount of evidence and theory
regarding the nature and causality of religion/belief
in imaginary beings that, taken together, as a whole,
constitutes proof beyond a reasonable doubt that
supernaturalism is a human-created superstition
mechanism, not an existentially validatable one
reflecting real beings/powers rather than manifes-
tations of the human imagination.
Here's more evidence to add to the case for
disbelief in and distance from treating imaginary
beings as if they are real ...
Freud, Sigmund
Religion, Civilization, and Discontents
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=117272&tocid=22608#22608.toc
Excerpt: "... Although many accounts of Freud's
development have discerned debts to one or
another aspect of his Jewish background, debts
Freud himself partly acknowledged, his avowed
position was deeply irreligious. As noted in the
account of Totem and Taboo, he always attributed
the belief in divinities ultimately to the displaced
worship of human ancestors. ...
In his 1907 essay ... 'Obsessive Actions and
Religious Practices' Freud had already contended
that obsessional neuroses are private religious
systems and religions themselves no more than
the obsessional neuroses of mankind.
Twenty years later, in ... 1927; The Future of an
Illusion, he elaborated this argument, adding that
belief in God is a mythic reproduction of the
universal state of infantile helplessness. Like an
idealized father, God is the projection of childish
wishes for an omnipotent protector. If children
can outgrow their dependence, he concluded with
cautious optimism, then humanity may also hope
to leave behind its immature heteronomy.
The simple Enlightenment faith underlying this
analysis quickly elicited critical comment, which
led to its modification. In an exchange of letters
with the French novelist Romain Rolland, Freud
came to acknowledge a more intractable source
of religious sentiment.
The opening section of his next speculative tract,
... 1930; Civilization and Its Discontents, was
devoted to what Rolland had dubbed the oceanic
feeling. Freud described it as a sense of indis-
soluble oneness with the universe, which mystics
in particular have celebrated as the fundamental
religious experience.
Its origin, Freud claimed, is nostalgia for the
pre-Oedipal infant's sense of unity with its mother.
Although still rooted in infantile helplessness,
religion thus derives to some extent from the
earliest stage of postnatal development.
Regressive longings for its restoration are possibly
stronger than those for a powerful father and thus
cannot be worked through by way of a collective
resolution of the Oedipus complex. ..."
---
Ritual
The Origin Approach
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=117412&tocid=66237#66237.toc
Excerpt: "The earliest approach was an attempt to
explain ritual, as well as religion, by means of a theory
concerned with historical origin. In most cases, this
theory also assumed an evolutionary hypothesis that
would explain the development of ritual behaviour
through history. ...
In the search for an origin of ritual, research turned
from the well-known literate cultures to those that
appeared to be less complex and preliterate. The use
of the terms primitive religion and primitive cultures
comes from this approach in seeking an answer to
the meaning of ritual, myth, and religion.
Various cultures and rituals were singled out, sacrifice
of either men or animals becoming one of the main
topics for speculation, though the exact motivation
or cause of sacrificial ritual was disputed among the
leading authors of the theory.
For W. Robertson Smith, a British biblical scholar
who first published his theory in the ninth edition of
Encyclopædia Britannica (1875-89), sacrifice was
motivated by the desire for communion between
members of a primitive group and their god.
The origin of ritual, therefore, was believed to be
found in totemic (animal symbolic clan) cults; and
totemism, for many authors, was thus believed to
be the earliest stage of religion and ritual. The
various stages of ritual development and evolution,
however, were never agreed upon.
Given this origin hypothesis, rituals of purification,
gift giving, piacular (expiatory) rites, and worship
were viewed as developments, or secondary stages,
of the original sacrificial ritual. The Christian Eucharist
(Holy Communion), along with contemporary banquets
and table etiquette, were explained as late developments
or traits that had their origin and meaning in the totemic
sacrifice. ..."
- - -
Bloody Sacrificial Salvation ... a primitive concept from
primitive and ancient cultures, with the one surviving icon
perpetuated to this day
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/bloody_sacrificial_salvation.htm
- - -
A Surfeit of Jesuses! - But No "Jesus of Nazareth"
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
- - -
Historical Jesus Summary : No Reliable Evidence
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.religion.christianity/msg/e640189b0537c139
- - -
What influences, other than the gospel and epistle writings,
impacted the origins and spread of christianity?
Greco-Roman Foundations For ...
the origins of Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/greco_roman_foundations_for.htm
Rome: Power & Glory
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/rome_power_and_glory.htm
Middle Eastern/Greek/Roman
Foundations For ... the origins
of Judaism and Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mideast_greek_roman4.htm
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mideast_greek_roman3.htm
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mideast_greek_roman2.htm
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mideast_greek_roman1.htm
Egyptian Foundations For ... concepts impacting
the development of philosophies within Judaism
and Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/egyptian_foundations_for.htm
Iranian Foundations For ... the origins of theological
concepts which impacted how humans perceived the
interactions between the spirit world and the real
world, with some of those concepts having an impact
on the development of Judaism and Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/iranian_foundations_for.htm
Mesopotamian Foundations For ... the origins of
Judaism, some of which led, eventually, to the origins
of Christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/mesopotamian_foundations_for.htm
- - -
What happened after the Jesus Christ stories/religions
became entrenched in western culture?
Christian Church History
(022001)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/christian_church_history.htm
"... I do think the Roman Catholic religion
is a disease of the mind which has a
particular epidemiology similar to that of
a virus... -Richard Dawkins ..."
- - -
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> For consideration of the likelihood that Jesus was a mythical
> creation -or- an overly ambitious series of creative extrapo-
> lations pertaining to a human who, if he even existed, had
> neither divine nor extraordinary attributes anywhere near
> those credited to him in the gospels, review the following ...
If Jesus were a myth, you would be able to publicly say "Jesus is
LORD" just as you are able to publicly say "Santa Claus lives at the
North Pole."
Instead, neither you nor other non-christians are able to publicly say
"Jesus is LORD" as we are witnessing:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
Therefore, Jesus is not a myth.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote in message
news:bea1a3ec-f5a6-469c...@f19g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>>
>> For consideration of the likelihood that Jesus was a mythical
>> creation -or- an overly ambitious series of creative extrapo-
>> lations pertaining to a human who, if he even existed, had
>> neither divine nor extraordinary attributes anywhere near
>> those credited to him in the gospels, review the following ...
> If Jesus were a myth, you would be able to publicly say "Jesus is
> LORD" just as you are able to publicly say "Santa Claus lives at the
> North Pole."
Illogical. Santa Claus doesn't live
anywhere except in myth. Jesus is
a myth, too.
- - -
Jesus Doubt File
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_doubt_file.htm
- - -
> [...]
Apparently, the facts on the Jesus
myths aren't something you wish
to address, as you failed to respond
to the entire post apart from your
ditty above in response to the first
sentence of that post.
Here's more for you to ignore or,
perhaps in a more courageous mo-
ment, you might try to actually read
and respond to the following:
A skeptical view of christianity
To a response from a poster perplexed regarding
my doubt and disbelief in christianity, I offered the
following:
Surely, you can appreciate the perspectives I've
provided regarding reasons for doubt and disbe-
lief in a wide range of presentments made by many
christians, and surely you recognize that the old +
new testamyth is loaded with anti-humanism, don't
you?
Aside from that, let's focus on the central theme of
christianity for a moment.
Let's just take ... oh I dunno, a man dying. You know
what? Billions have died. Some guy wrote a fanciful
story that one guy died and came to life. Big fiz, 'cause
per this story, the guy was son-of-god, he says. God?
Well, don't bother with that, just believe that such a
thing exists, 'cause after all, how could a guy be a
son of a god that didn't exist, right?
Anyone can claim anything. Many say you believe
that a certain bloke died and came back to life, this
son-of-god dude, or (and now it gets really bizarre),
some superbeing is going to
a) ignore you, let your death be the end of you,
'cause you didn't believe a man/god died and
came to life for a while
or
b) raise you from the dead, judge you, and toss
you into a lake of fire to be tortured, short-term,
because you didn't believe a man/god died and
came to life for a while
or
c) raise you from the dead, judge you, and roast you
for eternity because you didn't believe a man/god
died and came back to life for a while
Now, that's what your religion teaches, really, that's
it in a nutshell. No matter how many embellishments
and apologies and yes-buts and well-that's-one-view-
but and so on and so forth, the kernel of your faith
is believe a dude (a supposed son-of-god) died and
came back to life for a while, or else.
Anyone can make a claim. Christians make tons of
them. Why in the name of all that is veritable and esti-
mable should we, human beings on planet earth in the
year 2005 C.E., believe that belief in some dude (a
so-called son-of-god) dying and rising from the dead
almost 2,000 years ago is the most important aspect
of this, our one and only certain chance at life?
You know why, per christians, really? Because the
christian faith *depends* on that notion to *survive*,
that's why. That's what it's all about, christian church
perpetuation, getting money into church coffers, keep-
ing their christian clubs going, and (for really extreme
devotees like George W Bush) pushing their religious
belief system into every aspect of secular life they can
get their hands on.
They believe (pretend) that belief in a dead man (a sup-
posed son-of-god) coming to life is absolutely essential
to get some immortality, and by God (as if such a thing
exists), they're bound and determined to believe (pre-
tend) that that's what life is all about as if their (and our)
very lives depended on it.
Evidence? Not their problem.
Doubt? Disdained, unless it's doubt towards naturalism
and non-christian faiths that you're talking about.
Disbelief? Hey, they've been taught that's 'evil', 'sin',
and by God (as if such a thing exists), they're bound
and determined to treat that as the worst possible 'sin'.
Why? That's what their religious authority figures taught
them ever since they were babies/little children in church.
And so-on and so-forth.
Dead man -- live man -- believe or else -- no evidence
offered -- no heaven shown -- no hell unveiled -- no god
doing anything other than what folks pretend a god would
do (like, as in a sky buddy helping them and people they
like, sometimes, when he/it/they/she feels like it, and for
some believers, hurting folks, sometimes, when the sky
buddy gets the notion to do so -- sounds rather mythical
when put in those terms, doesn't it?) ...
... nothing but assertions-sans-evidence, contradictory
and irreconcilable claims-out-the-wazoo, and, well, when
you've got something other than everything I've mentioned
to offer, some version of christianity (a personal one you've
come up with, perhaps) that deviates from that which I've
mentioned, *significantly*, please do get back to me, and
update me on your version of christianity.
When you've got a god, you know, one that differs from
someone claiming they've got a god, please do be sure
to get back to me. Hey, and if god's too busy to make an
appearance or revelation, get an angel, devil, demon,
spirit, or christ to do something, really convincing, as that
would do for a starter, perhaps, as if.
After all, you must understand that anyone can claim
they've got a god (or some other supernatural thingie)
on their side, and many do, but claims do not a god or
faith or believe-or-else approach to life validate, sub-
stantiate, or justify in any way, shape or form, in my
view.
If you want to carry around a lucky rabbit's foot, for
example, feel free but don't be surprised if when you
try to get the pledge of allegiance changed to "one
nation under your lucky rabbit's foot", if some people
refuse to join into your lucky rabbit's foot faith. God?
Same deal, only since God is the biggest, baddest,
supposed most 'loving' no matter what "rabbit's foot"
many folks in America pretend exists, lots of folks
like to treat it as if doubting in it was ...
... well, just read your bible to ascertain how folks (and
the supposed god thingie) tend to treat disbelievers
and doubters in there, most often, and ponder how all
that brainwashing impacts folks from childhood ...
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
> >>
> >> For consideration of the likelihood that Jesus was a mythical
> >> creation -or- an overly ambitious series of creative extrapo-
> >> lations pertaining to a human who, if he even existed, had
> >> neither divine nor extraordinary attributes anywhere near
> >> those credited to him in the gospels, review the following ...
>
> > If Jesus were a myth, you would be able to publicly say "Jesus is
> > LORD" just as you are able to publicly say "Santa Claus lives at the
> > North Pole."
> >
> Illogical. Santa Claus doesn't live
> anywhere except in myth. Jesus is
> a myth, too.
Until you and other non-christians can publicly say "Jesus is LORD" as
you and other non-chrisitians can publicly say "Santa Claus lives at
the North Pole" you can not truthfully deny 1 Cor 12:3, where it is
written "... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy
Spirit."
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
Truth is simple :-)
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
Well, you had no response past the
1st sentence of the Jesus Doubt File
post, and no response at all to any
of the skeptical view of christianity
post, so apparently, your tank is
empty when it comes to defending
your God/Jesus notions, although
as far as pushing them, your gun
is loaded with blanks, and shows
an inability or unwillingness, on
your part, to support any of your
claims.
- - -
A skeptical view of christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/skeptical_view_of_christianity.htm
- - -
- - -
The Jesus Doubt File
- - -
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
> Well, you had no response past the
> 1st sentence of the Jesus Doubt File
> post, and no response at all to any
> of the skeptical view of christianity
> post, so apparently, your tank is
> empty when it comes to defending
> your God/Jesus notions, although
> as far as pushing them, your gun
> is loaded with blanks, and shows
> an inability or unwillingness, on
> your part, to support any of your
> claims.
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
you to unwittingly update folks on your continuing to be unable to
publicly say "Jesus is LORD" so that we, who are Christians (either
Jew or gentile), can continue to choose to pray that GOD soften your
Sanity's Little Helper
posteth:
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f0fb1537187ce619?
>
>> Well, you had no response past the
>> 1st sentence of the Jesus Doubt File
>> post, and no response at all to any
>> of the skeptical view of christianity
>> post, so apparently, your tank is
>> empty when it comes to defending
>> your God/Jesus notions, although
>> as far as pushing them, your gun
>> is loaded with blanks, and shows
>> an inability or unwillingness, on
>> your part, to support any of your
>> claims.
>
> Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to
--
David Silverman
aa #2208
Defender of Civilisation
if a tree falls in the woods, what are the odds it will land in some bear
shit ?
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
Yet again, no response, telling in
the vacuousness of your empty
claims. Tell you what, since you
disregard almost everything which
casts doubt on your stances, pro-
vide one iota, just one, of any evi-
dence you think proves your god
exists outside your imagination.
Just one. Surely you can come up
with just one, can't you?
- - -
Well, you had no response past the
1st sentence of the Jesus Doubt File
post, and no response at all to any
of the skeptical view of christianity
post, so apparently, your tank is
empty when it comes to defending
your God/Jesus notions, although
as far as pushing them, your gun
is loaded with blanks, and shows
an inability or unwillingness, on
your part, to support any of your
claims.
- - -
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
<><
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
LORD." (Proverbs 16:33)
Amen.
A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/085dcffcafb7e4e2?
Nothing happens by chance because everything happens only as GOD
allows it (Ecclesiastes 9:11):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?
Sign that GOD can easily unleash an H5N1 Pandemic (Pan-Flu) at any
time:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?
What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
catastrophic Pan-Flu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a blessedly wonderful
2009th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus Christ as our Messiah,
the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
Hunger is the physical "hearts burning within us" feeling that unlocks
the 4 mysteries of the "Road to Emmaus" adventure described in Luke
24:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
Moreover, being hungrier is the key to being Jesus' disciples:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
Being physically hungrier is how we will physically recognize Jesus
when He physically returns for us to meet Him physically in the air:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ffa6609710ea9587?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Jesus is LORD, forever !!!
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier for mind, body, and soul:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
A skeptical view of christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/skeptical_view_of_christianity.htm
- - -
- - -
The Jesus Doubt File
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_doubt_file.htm
- - -
Mark Twain
Biography
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=75863&tocid=7470
Excerpt: " ... The popular image of Mark Twain was by
now well-established. He was a gruff but knowledgeable,
unaffected man who had been places and seen things and
was not fooled by pretense.
He talked and wrote with contagious humanity and charm
in the language of ordinary people. At the same time, he
scornfully berated man; evolution failed, he said, when
man appeared, for his was the only evil heart in the entire
animal kingdom.
Yet Mark Twain was one with those he scorned: what any
man sees in the human race, he admitted, 'is merely him-
self in the deep and private honesty of his own heart.'
Perceptive, comic, but also bitter, Twain seemed to be
the mirror of all men."
- - -
"The Bible is a mass of fables and traditions, mere
mythology." [Mark Twain, "Mark Twain and the Bible"]
- - -
"If there is a God, he is a malign thug." [Mark Twain]
- - -
"There is one notable thing about our Christianity: bad,
bloody, merciless, money-grabbing and predatory as it
is - in our country particularly, and in all other Christian
countries in a somewhat modified degree - it is still a
hundred times better than the Christianity of the Bible,
with its prodigious crime - the invention of Hell.
Measured by our Christianity of today, bad as it is,
hypocritical as it is, empty and hollow as it is, neither
the Deity nor His Son is a Christian, nor qualified for
that moderately high place. Ours is a terrible religion.
The fleets of the world could swim in spacious com-
fort in the innocent blood it has spilt." [Mark Twain,
"Reflections on Religion"]
- - -
"There was no place in the land where the seeker could
not find some small budding sign of pity for the slave.
No place in all the land but one -- the pulpit. It yielded
last; it always does. It fought a strong and stubborn
fight, and then did what it always does, joined the pro-
cession -- at the tail end. Slavery fell. The slavery
texts [in the Bible] remained; the practice changed; that
was all." ["Mark Twain and the Three R's, by Maxwell
Geismar, p.109]
- - -
"It ain't the parts of the Bible that I can't understand
that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand."
[Mark Twain]
- - -
"The Christian Bible is a drug store. It's contents have
remained the same but the medical practice continues.
For 1,800 years these changes were slight--scarcely
noticeable... The dull and ignorant physician day and
night, and all the days and all the nights, drenched
his patient with vast and hideous doses of the most
repulsive drugs to be found in the store's stock...
He kept him religion sick for eighteen centuries, and
allowed him not a well day during all that time." ["Mark
Twain and the Three R's, by Maxwell Geismar, p.107]
- - -
"These people's God has shown them by a million
acts that he respects none of the Bible's statues. He
breaks every one of them himself, adultery and all."
["Mark Twain and the Three R's, by Maxwell Geismar,
p.124]
- - -
"There are no witches. The witch text remains; only
the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the
text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text
remains. More than two hundred death penalties are
gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized
them remains." ["Mark Twain and the Three R's, by
Maxwell Geismar, p.110]
- - -
"Man is a Religious Animal. Man is the only Reli-
gious Animal. He is the only animal that has the
True Religion -- several of them. He is the only ani-
mal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his
throat if his theology isn't straight." [_Letters from
the Earth_, Mark Twain]
- - -
"During many ages there were witches. The Bible
said so. The Bible commanded that they should not
be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing
its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for 800 years,
gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands,
and set about its holy work in earnest.
She worked hard at it night and day during nine cen-
turies and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned
whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the
Christian world clean with their foul blood.
Then it was discovered that there was no such thing
as witches, and never had been. One does not know
to laugh or to cry." [Mark Twain, "Europe and Else-
where"]
- - -
"Loyalty to a petrified opinion never yet broke a chain
or freed a human soul." [Mark Twain]
- - -
From Steven Weinberg, page 10 from article no longer
available online, but which may be purchased at ...
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/354
"... Mark Twain described his mother as a genuinely
good person, whose soft heart pitied even Satan, but
who had no doubt about the legitimacy of slavery,
because in years of living in antebellum Missouri she
had never heard any sermon opposing slavery, but
only countless sermons preaching that slavery was
God's will. ..."
- - -
The Bible According to Mark Twain: Writings
on Heaven, Eden, and the Flood, by Mark Twain
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684824396
"Mark Twain takes on Heaven and Hell, sinners
and saints, and showcases his own unique
approach to the Holy Scriptures including Adam
and Eve's divergent accounts of their domestic
troubles, Satan's take on our concept of the
afterlife, Methuselah's discussion of an ancient
version of baseball, and advice on how to dress
and tip properly in heaven.
Behind the humor of these pieces, readers will see
Twain's serious thoughts on the relationship between
God and man, biblical inconsistencies, Darwinism,
science, and the impact of technology on religious
beliefs."
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
While being mindful of our past written discussions that resulted in
your panic-stricken flight:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5f6ca8a70d9e98d0?
May reading the following help you understand the reality of GOD:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/b899ce5cc1a77d9d?
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
LORD." (Proverbs 16:33)
Amen.
A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/085dcffcafb7e4e2?
Nothing happens by chance because everything happens only as GOD
allows it (Ecclesiastes 9:11):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?
Sign that GOD can easily unleash an H5N1 Pandemic (Pan-Flu) at any
time:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?
What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
catastrophic Pan-Flu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May you and other dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a
blessedly wonderful 2009th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus
Christ as our Messiah, the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
Hunger is the physical "hearts burning" feeling that unlocks the 4
mysteries of the "Road to Emmaus" adventure described in Luke 24:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
Moreover, being hungrier is the key to being Jesus' disciples:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Jesus is LORD, forever !!!
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier for mind, body, and soul:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
A skeptical view of christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/skeptical_view_of_christianity.htm
- - -
- - -
The Jesus Doubt File
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_doubt_file.htm
- - -
- - -
Escaping Blind Faith
Is there a way out, for humankind? Here are a few ideas:
- - -
1) We know that you can logic / reason your way out, but
that requires thinking / doubting and many / most are less
than willing to do that amongst peers / fellow members of
a tribe (whether it's the allah tribe, the god tribe, the hindu
tribe, the buddhist tribe, the state worship tribe, makes no
difference, pressure to fit in with the tribe makes thinking /
doubting unattractive for many / most).
- - -
2) What is faith in ultimate goodies / terrible consequences
unseen, exactly? Is it not the template placed upon children /
society as an ultimate reward / positive reinforcement mechan-
ism and an ultimate punishment / condemnation / naysayer
mechanism?
Example: How many of our readers ever feel guilty about
doubting in Shiva, Kama, Krishna, Allah, Isis, Mithras, Horus,
Zeus, Odin, or any super-being faith construct apart from
our culture / upbringing? On the other hand, how many feel
reticent about doubting the de facto christian faith constructs?
Our logic / reason justifies our doubt, yet somehow it's diffi-
cult for most to express that doubt in the same manner /
level of comfort as we easily do regarding faiths apart from
our culture.
Why? Simply put, we're part of the christian tribe and there
are all sorts of peer pressures, financial pressures, mating
pressures associated with keeping your doubt about your
ultimate tribe conformity / authority template to yourself,
going along with your tribe.
Having evolved from chimpanzees, creatures which to this
day have a hierarchical tribe head who has mating privileges
and food rights / control / power at the top of the tribe, we
carry forward those instincts into the modern age, with a
larger brain and larger reasoning skills, with extensive com-
munication skills, yet still tied back to an ultimately dominant
male as the head of our tribe.
That male, in the case of religion, is god and our intuitive na-
ture makes denial of that supreme male a challenging task.
What can we replace that with, what can we make as a real
and viable pseudo-supreme male other than a god of ulti-
mate authority?
Note, among chimpanzees it behooves you to be on the
good side of the ultimate male, a stance not unlike that of
the followers of religion who try to be on the good side of
their ultimate male, god.
A way for those of faith to become the ultimate male, in
this life, is to claim god-contact - god-support - god-fellow-
ship, all reflections of chimpanzees' desire to be the ulti-
mate male either by force - overthrowing the ultimate male -
or submission, buddying up to the ultimate male.
Hmmmmmm. I know, persons of religious faith would say
that we, the disbelievers, are the ones overthrowing the
ultimate male by declaring ourselves the ultimate male ...
ouch, might be right on the mark.
- - -
3) If our conscience, our ability to tell the difference be-
tween right and wrong is socially / culturally and genetically
mixed with the ultimate supreme male authority concept
(and certainly, one must recognize that our pre-god form
placed the male head of the tribe at the top as the ultimate
authority) ... even having dropped that ultimate male author-
ity figure in our own minds, we still have our conscience
and we still have that genetic and social pressure to asso-
ciate conscience with an ultimate male authority figure ...
We don't need it in fact, our logic and reason tells us so,
but our genetic / memetic proclivities, our conscience, when
deciding between right and wrong always uses the neurons
and pathways established in childhood, said pathways heav-
ily dependent on that ultimate authority figure, god in the case
of most in western culture ... this internal confusion mechan-
ism is what many of religious faith refer to when they speak
of humankind's need for god. It's a simple matter of evolu-
tion combined with social / cultural influences and the way
you were raised as a child.
- - -
4) Given 1-2-3, there needs to be a way to deprogram our-
selves and pay more focus on the sociological / psycholog-
ical aspects of faith, as well as something doubters are
already quite good at, the logic / reason underpinning those
of us who are not of religious faith.
If someone already has a nifty mate to 4, please share, as
discussing faith from a logic / reason standpoint seems to
fall short of addressing the human and natural tribe conform-
ance / worship of the ultimate supreme authority tendencies
which holds many people to the religious faith of their culture,
in varying degrees, despite its inability to mate to logic and
reason.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> Is there a way out, for humankind?
"I am the way and the truth and the life." -- LORD Jesus Christ (John
14:6)
Amen.
Truth is simple :-)
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> Is there a way out, for humankind?
Here are a few ideas:
- - -
- - -
- - -
- - -
- - -
The Jesus Doubt File
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_doubt_file.htm
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> >> Is there a way out, for humankind?
Yes.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
Evemerism
The way to verity on the Jesus-Fact or Fiction issues is
open-minded search for a logical, reasonable, and substan-
tive explanation for the myths and claims surrounding the
character.
I've endeavored, and continue to endeavor, to elucidate
on that topic. Others insist on perpetuating the cover-up
and disregarding, out-of-hand, any information which casts
doubt on the presence of some magic godman close to
2,000 years ago.
Here's a perspective you rarely will hear about within the
parameters of social / culturally sanctified "OK with Christ,
no matter what" perspectives ...
- - -
http://www.truthbeknown.com/footnote.htm#foot3
- - -
- - - begin excerpts - - -
Evemerism, named after Evemeras, a 4th Century B.C.E.
Greek philosopher who developed the idea that, rather than
being mythological creatures as was accepted by the reigning
intellectuals, the gods of old were in fact historical characters,
kings, emperors and heroes whose exploits were then deified.
Evemerists have put forth a great deal of literature attempting
to prove that Jesus was a great Jewish reformer and revolu-
tionary who threatened the status quo and thus had to be put
to death.
Unfortunately for historicizers, no historian of his purported
time even noticed this "great reformer."
In Ancient History of the God Jesus, Dujardin states, "This
doctrine [Evemerism] is nowadays discredited except in the
case of Jesus.
No scholar believes that Osiris or Jupiter or Dionysus was an
historical person promoted to the rank of a god, but exception
is made only in favour of Jesus. . . .It is impossible to rest the
colossal work of Christianity on Jesus, if he was a man."
The standard Christian response to the Evemerists has been
that no such Jesus, stripped of his miracles and other super-
natural attributes, could ever "have been adored as a god or
even been saluted as the Messiah of Israel." (Dujardin)
This response is quite accurate: No man could have caused
such a hullabaloo and hellish fanaticism, the product of which
has been the unending spilling of blood.
The crazed "inspiration" that has kept the Church afloat
merely confirms the mythological origins of this tale.
"The general assumption concerning the canonical gospels is
that the historic element was the kernel of the whole, and that
the fables accreted round it; whereas the mythos, being pre-
extant, proves the core of the matter was mythical, and it
follows that the history is incremental. . . . It was the human
history that accreted round the divinity, and not a human
being who became divine." (Massey, The Historical Jesus
and the Mythical Christ, henceforth, "MC")
The bottom line is that when one removes all the elements
of those preceding deities and myths that contributed to
the formation of this Jewish god-man - which is what Eve-
merists insist on doing - there is nothing historical left to
point to. As Massey says, ". . . a composite likeness of
twenty different persons merged in one . . . is not anybody."
(MC)
- - - end excerpts - - -
- - -
A skeptical view of christianity
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/skeptical_view_of_christianity.htm
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> - - -
>
> Evemerism
>
... is Jesus :-)
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
... is proud to present the following message, in an attempt
to free humankind from the downsides of blind faith in
invisible / silent / non-existent / imaginary super-beings:
So, you must understand that there are those of us
on the planet who are totally and firmly convinced that
all of the mythical super-beings created by the religious
and superstitious are not worthy of consideration or
recognition as little more than the fears and delusions
and desperation of the human imagination ...
especially that imagination as personified by early pre-scientific
humans without a clue, perpetuated to this very day by ...
humans desirous of control/manipulation/deceit/departure
from reality.
By virtue of those of us willing to call a myth a myth,
a delusion a delusion, a fantasy a fantasy, an imaginary
set of beings an imaginary set of beings ...
we totally and absolutely with every ounce of our being
refute, deny, reject, dismiss ...
the imaginary beings of the belief crowd.
We LOVE ALL human beings ... we DESPISE delusion
and deceit and lies and myths and superstitions and threats
and blackmail and pretentious patterns of behavior having
no relationship with reality ...
And, as such, we say
Know No God, Know No Jesus, Know No Angels, Know
No Satan.
We dismiss every single myth of the god-jesus-angels-satan-
zeus-odin-allah-mithras-and all other gods and imaginary
beings crowd, created by the pre-scientific humans of
our ancestry, humans without a clue about the real world,
science, and the way our natural existence has evolved
over the billions of years since our earth was formed.
...
Just clearing things up for individuals who are unaware of the
degree to which some disbelievers hold belief in imaginary
beings in such low regard while at the same time LOVING
with every ounce of our being the humans who hold such
beliefs close to their hearts, humans who have suffered the
carrying on of the delusion from generation-to-generation
and who persist in endeavoring to continue the cycle unless ...
Disbelievers and doubters and those interested in maxing out
a natural existence in a natural world are able to find some way
to break the cycle and free humankind so that ...
The sole pursuit of our one and only *sure* shot on earth
is the value of our lives and our existences and our caring
for one another, at this time, in this life, on this earth.
We fear no god, we fear no imaginary beings, and as such,
we say with pride and with joy, there are no imaginary beings,
not to strike a blow against humans who have been seduced
into the myths, just to clearly and without doubt display our
disbelief in such concepts as being anything more than the
concoctions of pre-scientific humans without a clue,
perpetuated to this very day via the venues of threat/fear/
blackmail/generational brainwashing/delusion/pressures
to conform/pressures to be silent/pressures to socially
adapt/pressures to lie about that which we, the proud
disbelievers, proclaim with all our hearts and souls, just
isn't true in any way shape or form, at all, period.
Words fail me in trying to describe the absolute certainty
with which I know that no god worth worship exists ...
maybe the words will come to me some day, but for now,
Know No God, Know No Jesus, Know No Angels, Know
No Satan, those, I think, will suffice.
Peace and love to all of the deluded beings who are not yet
able to depart the myths and peace and love and encourage-
ment to the doubters who find it difficult to find their voice
when it comes to speaking up regarding the value and worth
of living life for truth and honesty, rather than myth and delu-
sion and lies.
It's absolutely incredible, all that humankind is missing out
on because we still seem to be stuck in the caves of ignor-
ance regarding our natural origins in a natural world ...
ONE SURE LIFE - ONE SURE SHOT AT IT - Let's all
max it out and enjoy it, for crying out loud, taking care of
each other as if this is all we know exists. Why? Because
this is all we know exists and each generation that passes
on its one *sure* shot at it is missing out on everything life
has to offer. Humankind is missing out on our one and
only *sure* shot at living for pleasure, for joy, for each
other, for truth, for search for truth, for love, for honesty,
for the worth of a life well-lived.
The delusion game must end and those of us willing to
say Know No God, Know No Jesus, Know No Angels,
Know No Satan, and Know No Imaginary Beings
whatsoever that are portrayed as reality by blind faithers,
we are the ones who can and must make a difference so
that things will change so that humans live not for a
delusionary afterlife but instead, live totally and fully
dedicated to maxing out and taking care of one another
on this earth, at this time, in this life.
If death happens, what will be will be and as all that is
speaks of a natural origin in a natural world, so shall be
our destinies with our ultimate destinies unknown in this
dimension until humankind has progressed further in our
understanding of our natural world.
Peace, and may the love of honest humans searching for
truth and long life and pleasure, may that genuine love
be with you, forever and ever (if possible).
Amen.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>... is proud to present the following message, in an attempt
>to free humankind from the downsides of blind faith in
>invisible / silent / non-existent / imaginary super-beings:
"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no GOD.'
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good." (Psalm 14:1)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist, Molecular Biologist,
Computer Programmer, Electrical Engineer,
and Board-certified Cardiologist :-)
http://EmoryCardiology.com
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Belief In God = Misplaced Hope & Comfort
The shock and fear of my son becoming a diabetic shook me very deeply. So deeply, that I found myself reacquainted with that
frightened little voice in my head that yearned for a sort of parental comfort and protection from the perceived demons of the
world. The voice was saying, "Please don't take him from me. Please make everything turn out alright".
It was a momentary lapse that was quickly dispelled with a little dose of rational thinking and the reminder that millions of
undeserving people are inflicted with suffering every day. This undeserved suffering that's been happening over hundreds of
thousands of years is just one indication that there is no god.
The horrible experience convinced me that emotions like fear and hope evolved with strong connections to an often supernaturally
based yearning for protection and comfort - we didn't understand the world, so we looked to the mystical realm for help. While this
may have been helpful to us in the past, in my mind, that approach is today a distraction. Hope and comfort are now better sought
out in our own growing knowledge of the universe - of how things work and how things can be fixed.
Bringing it back to this personal experience, my kid gets to live because of humanity's growing knowledge of biology, and I feel
grateful to live in a time and place where my family can benefit.
Fear gives way to hope and comfort in the knowledge that our species is, with growing rapidity, learning to eliminate the suffering
many people's god is either unable or unwilling to end himself.
- - -
On Friday, my wife and I learned that our son - six years old -
is a type 1 juvenile diabetic (the insulin injections for life kind).
Needless to say, we all have a lot to learn and adjust to. I don't
have the energy to post much else today.
Right now, I'd say if there is a god, his name is Frederick Banting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Banting
July 25, 2008 - - -
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
J E S U S C H R I S T ?
Religion Can Kill You ...
(Top Posts - Social/Legal - 022101)
... still, even in the year of no lord, 2001, religion
continues to kill and in the U.S. of A., it's the
children of religious zealots that are being sacrificed
as the latest victims upon the altars of blind faith.
If any of you are *ever* tempted to kill or allow
death because you think GOD or the bible or any
other invisible non-entity wishes you to, take a very
cold shower, slap yourself upside the head, and
seek help from someone of a pro-human non-faith
bent before you or yours invokes ancient supersti-
tious idiocy upon those most precious among us,
our children, our very life blood, our future ...
- - -
Freedom of Religion or State-Sanctioned Child
Abuse?
Wednesday, February 21, 2001
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,100175,00.html
- - -
Excerpt: "Rising death toll fuels debate over parents
who choose prayer over medical treatment on behalf
of their children ...
At the center of controversy are Congregants of
Church of Christ, Scientist, along with members of
other, smaller sects, including the Followers of Christ
Church and the General Assembly and Church of the
First Born.
All are staunchly opposed to medical intervention in
the case of illness, preferring instead to depend upon
prayer to do the healing.
Their devotion to what they call "God's will" has,
according to their critics, led to the deaths of more
than 172 children between 1975 and 1995 - all
because their parents refused to seek medical treat-
ment for their children's illnesses.
...
In 1998, then-Texas based critical-care pediatrician
Seth Asser told TIME's David Van Biema, "Kids die
from accidental deployment of air bags, and you get
hearings in Congress. But this goes on, and dozens
die and people think there's no problem because the
deaths happen one at a time. But the kids who die
suffer horribly. This is Jonestown in slow motion,"
Asser said. ...
- - -
A few comments: Stop the faith. Save the children.
Save yourselves.
- - - end of article - - -
- - -
40 Year Old Atheist
ramblings of a middle aged guy who
found relief through non-belief
http://40yearoldatheist.com/tag/diabetes/
- - -
Belief In God = Misplaced Hope & Comfort
The shock and fear of my son becoming a diabetic
shook me very deeply. So deeply, that I found myself
reacquainted with that frightened little voice in my head
that yearned for a sort of parental comfort and protec-
tion from the perceived demons of the world. The voice
was saying, "Please don't take him from me. Please
make everything turn out alright".
It was a momentary lapse that was quickly dispelled with
a little dose of rational thinking and the reminder that mil-
lions of undeserving people are inflicted with suffering
every day. This undeserved suffering that's been happening
over hundreds of thousands of years is just one indication
that there is no god.
The horrible experience convinced me that emotions like
fear and hope evolved with strong connections to an often
supernaturally based yearning for protection and comfort
- we didn't understand the world, so we looked to the
mystical realm for help. While this may have been helpful
to us in the past, in my mind, that approach is today a dis-
traction. Hope and comfort are now better sought out in
our own growing knowledge of the universe - of how things
work and how things can be fixed.
Bringing it back to this personal experience, my kid gets
to live because of humanity's growing knowledge of biology,
and I feel grateful to live in a time and place where my family
can benefit.
http://kirstyne.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/diabetes-girl-shot-rgb.jpg
Fear gives way to hope and comfort in the knowledge that
our species is, with growing rapidity, learning to eliminate
the suffering many people's god is either unable or unwilling
to end himself.
July 25, 2008
- - - end of article - - -
Jan Drew
"Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohu...@ghg.net>
Profile
Reported for flooding the newsgroups.
ab...@athenanews.com
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
> Belief In God = Misplaced Hope & Comfort
Not misplaced trust.
"I am the way and the truth and the life." -- LORD Jesus Christ (John
14:6)
Amen.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Jan Drew" <jdre...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:sIdFl.14793$pr6....@flpi149.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
> "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohu...@ghg.net>
>
> Reported for flooding the newsgroups.
Tell me, Jan dear, aren't you simply trying to support your
God-pusher cohort, Chung? Be honest, now. Chung, who's
flooding these newsgroups with promotion of the religion
of Chungism, constantly/steadily/relentlessly. Tell me, dear,
what is the option for anti-Chungists, responding to each
Chung post with alternatives, -or- simply being silent while
Chung preaches his religion?
Since you support Chungism, I suppose that silence is the
option you desire, so Chung can spout his anti-human reli-
gion unopposed.
No, dear, Chungism is a sick and anti-human philosophy
very much tied to right-wing religious fanaticism, and oppo-
sition to it is required to prevent religion from re-entering
the corridors of power, the "power trip" the religious right
was on when Bush and his ilk were in office.
Recall, the right-wingers killed off federal support for em-
bryonic stem cell research from prior to 9-11 -til- Obama
kicked the policy out on its ass, and the sooner you reli-
gious right wing types are put in your rightful place, as
anachronistic throwbacks to a day and age of inquisitions
and church tortures and witch tortures / mass murders
and religious wars, the better, for all of humankind, in
this modern age when superstitious nonsense prevents
humans from achieving all that we can be, in this one
and only *certain* chance we have.
- - -
- - -
Jesus Christ, Supermyth
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/disbelief/jesus_christ_supermyth.htm
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Jan Drew wrote:
>> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>>
>> Reported for flooding the newsgroups.
>
> Tell me, Jan dear, aren't you simply trying to support your
> God-pusher cohort, Chung?
Your posts remain welcomed by me, Pro-Humanist :-)
> Be honest, now. Chung, who's
> flooding these newsgroups with promotion of the religion
> of Chungism, constantly/steadily/relentlessly.
No such religion as Chungism.
Instead, there is Secular Humanism, which is a religion.
It remains wiser to not be religious:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/NoReligion
> Tell me, dear,
> what is the option for anti-Chungists, responding to each
> Chung post with alternatives, -or- simply being silent while
> Chung preaches his religion?
It remains my personal choice to not be religious.
>Since you support Chungism, I suppose that silence is the
>option you desire, so Chung can spout his anti-human reli-
>gion unopposed.
Actually, your belief that unborn babies should be sacrificed for
embyonic stem cells is anti-human.
laurahalvarson
wrote:
:-)) I learned....ANYBODY can learn! ;-)
Love, Laura Lynn Halvarson
THE PATIENT WHO REFUSED TO DIE!
laurahalvarson
wrote:
> "Jan Drew" <jdrew1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in messagenews:sIdFl.14793$pr6....@flpi149.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
> > "Pro-Humanist FREELOVER" <prohuman...@ghg.net>
You are silly. :-) Love you anyway!
Laura Lynn Halvarson
THE PATIENT WHO REFUSED TO DIE.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
> >
> > > Belief In God = Misplaced Hope & Comfort
> >
> > Not misplaced trust.
> >
> > "I am the way and the truth and the life." -- LORD Jesus Christ (John
> > 14:6)
> >
> > Amen.
> >
> > May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
> > trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
> >
> > http://T3WiJ.com
> >
> > Amen.
>
>
> Love, Laura Lynn Halvarson
> THE PATIENT WHO REFUSED TO DIE!
Laus Deo :-)