Re: Ethanol increases air pollution in addition to raising food prices!
hanson
news:odWdndeDM8CKlLrV...@earthlink.com...
> Rob Dekker wrote:
>> "Lars Eighner" <use...@larseighner.com> wrote in message
>> news:slrng294u8...@debranded.larseighner.com...
>
>>> In our last episode, <wdYUj.1466$Vd.1020@trndny06>,
>>> the lovely and talented mcs, [the mindless cultist swooner]
>>> broadcast on alt.politics:
>>>> "ethanol has a larger carbon footprint then fossil fuel"
>>>> Ok what does that mean?
>
>> "Lars Eighner" <use...@larseighner.com> wrote
>>> It means when you consider the planting, growing,
>>> harvesing, processin into ethanol, and burning the
>>> ethanol, the greenhouse gas output to drive a vehicle
>>> one mile on ethanol is greater than the greenhouse
>>> gas output of driving one mile with fossil fuel.
>>
> Rob Dekker wrote:
>> As far as I know, that is really not true.
>> Where did you get this info ?
>
"Bama Brian" <eddy...@mindspring.com> wrote
> Ethanol/methanol are types of alcohol. As a fuel, alcohol
> has less energy content than does gasoline. IIRC, alcohol
> provides somewhere around one-half the mileage than
> gasoline does. --- Here's one minor study:
> http://www.edmunds.com/advice/alternativefuels/articles/120863/article.html
> Just from this standpoint, alcohol is not good as a motor
> fuel. Right now ethanol has become a huge boondoggle
> funded primarily with crop incentives paid by the fedgov
> to the farmers. This has certainly caused a huge rise
> in the costs of corn-based food products.
> **** It is insane for us to burn food to drive our cars.****
>
hanson wrote:
Aside from the self-serving "carbon foot print" issue which is
proselytized in these enviro NGs by by hordes of little Green
idiots who act unwittingly, in their stupid enviro fanaticism,
as unpaid enablers and facilitators for enrichment of the
Green turds and Green shits, let us pay attention to the
energy delivered from EtOH or MeOH as motor fuel.
There are no major or minor studies required to do that,
if all those little green idiots would have paid attention
in high school-chem where it was explained like this:
Methanol: CH3-OH can be written as CH2 + H2O
Ethanol: CH3-CH2-OH can be written as 2 CH2 + H2O
CH2 is the chief ingredient of the fuel Octane: H-(CH2)8-H
H2O is water. -- The Molweights: CH2 = 14 -- H2O =18.
So in
100% Methanol we carry 18/32 = 56% water & burn as 44% fuel.
100% Ethanol we carry 18/46 = 40% water & burn as 60 % fuel.
100% Octane we carry 0% water and burn 100 % as fuel.
>
So, all you little green idiots you just don't know badly you are
letting yourself be fucked by the green sharpies who gladly let
you buy 50% water at $ 4/gallon at "gas pump"... ahahahaha...
because you and them believe in the green bible that says:
>
= "It doesn't matter what is true ... it only matters what people
= believe is true. -- Paul Watson, Sea Shepard/ex-Greenpeace, &...
= "A lot of environmental [sci/soc/pol] messages are simply not
= accurate. We use hype." -- Jerry Franklin, Ecologist, UoW, and...
= "If you don't know an answer, a fact, a statistic, then .... make it
= up on the spot ... for the mass-media today ... the truth is irrelevant."
= -- Paul Watson in Earthforce: An Earth Warrior's Guide to Strategy.
= "We make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little
= mention of any doubts we may have [about] being honest."
= -- Stephen Schneider (Stanford prof. who first sought fame as
= a global cooler, but has now hit the big time as a global warmer)
= "It is appropriate to have an over-representation of factual presen-
= tations" -- Al Gore, Chairman, Gen. Investment Management Bank
and more here:
<http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/c385a6d1f3f7f9dd>
>
But thanks for the laughs, guys!.... ahahaha.... ahahanson
hanson
news:cc33be84-8a99-4f84...@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Reminds me. I would like to sell the carbon credits
for the grass and trees I grow. First $2,000 gets
them for a year. I'll even provide the green stickers
that you put on your luggage when you fly.
Frank
>
hanson wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.chem/msg/a22fea255c48e3a3
... ahaha... AHAHAHA... Good one!... Hay'a Frank, old chum.
Listen... never mind the sticker or the carcreds. That's pea nuts.
You as a chemist, become a fabled and enormously revered
class 2 enviro fat cat by simply inventing a coupler that combines
the 50% water with regular old gasoline. The little green idiots are
buying that mandated 50/50 green mix right now. See below.
>
"Bama Brian" <eddy...@mindspring.com> wrote
> **** It is insane for us to burn food to drive our cars.****
>
hanson wrote:
hanson
news:dHGVj.49332$6a2....@newsfe17.ams2...
"hanson" <han...@quick.net> wrote in message
"Bama Brian" <eddy...@mindspring.com> wrote
>
> **** It is insane for us to burn food to drive our cars.****
>
hanson wrote:
Androcles wrote:
Seems to me that automobile engines waste a lot of energy
pumping nitrogen from nowhere to nowhere, heating it as it
goes, so why not use pure oxygen instead of air?
That way the fuel becomes less important.
>
hanson wrote:
The class 1 enviros and the class 3 enviros will sue you
over that but for different green reasons. But the class 2
enviros will be enthused and even steal that idea from you
as that could move'em into the big league, like the ETOH
did it for ADM. The Enviros will help you promote anything
that can be labeled green, be it a scam or not... ahahaha..
As I see it the following technical bagatelles will have to be
solved first.
>
-- Produce pure O2 at a price/cost that is smaller then the
loss from heating the Nitrogen... ahahaha...
-- Engineer the required engine alterations to accommodate
the use of p-O2, and then fuck the use of fossil or renewable
carbon fuels altogether. Drive with a zero carbon foot print.
>
You have a big time green winner on your hands, dude: You've
got now the ultimate eco friendly propulsion system. Buy into
the ongoing ultra green Hydrogen scam... and you are in like
green Flint... providing, as another green bonus, gallons and
gallons of precious & scarce clean drinking water as you drive.
The more you drive the better. Go for it man! Be Green!
Thanks for the laughs... ahahahaha... ahahahanson
hanson
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.chem/msg/2858531434d2f815
on scams perpetrated the Ethanol lobby with the help of vast
hordes or little green idiots who function as unpaid enablers
and facilitators to fill the coffers from the scams by the fat
class 2 enviros like ADM and Gore, et. al... ahahaha.....
>
"Androcles" <Headm...@Hogwarts.physics>
news:b6NVj.5314$KQ4....@newsfe10.ams2...
expressed his hope that "we really want improved efficiency
and a low cost portable energy source that available on demand,
so why not electrolyze water from sunlight? Not cheap I know,
but neither is going to war over oil and building and operating
oil refineries. Anyone that has operated an oxy-acetylene torch
knows there is a whole lot of energy in those bottles, more than a
tank of gasoline".
>
Enter <Willie...@gmail.com> denizen of sci.space.policy
who wrote & prescribed a "solution"... ahahaha... in his message
news:08aecf76-fde9-4437...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
wherein Willy concludes: "Properly developed,a solar hydrogen
infrastructure that is competitive with oil, can replace coal and
natural gas totally,and knock oil prices back below $30 per
barrel, before ending the importance of oil altogether"... ahaha
Willie is promoting the hope for acceptance of large Hydrogen
use scenarios, using "ultra-low-cost solar panel of the type
in here http://www.usoal.com,"... ahaha.. BUT which do not exist...
--- Hey Willie, kudos, for you are now being an emergent class 2
enviro. Welcome to the world of green dreams. May they become
true before they bankrupt you or drive you into the nut house or
make you end up in jail... ahahahaha...
>
hanson wrote:
Hey listen guys, *in principle!!*, of course I do share your dreams.
But dreams are not reality... and very few of such dreams will
ever turn into any kind of reality. I have no idea HOW the
growing energy need will be accommodated. Except I know that
it will be solved.... ahahahaha... 'cuz not doing do will be a
pill too bitter to swallow...
>
With little doubt, the chief obstacle to progress and change
are the oil-, coal- and gas providers of today... them being the
largest stake holders in the game. - Now, put yourself into their
shoes, you being in a position to monopolize & control price
and output ... internationally.. at a time when your product is
in demand like it was never before... Business is good! !!!...
>
So, don't tell me that YOU would give up your position in such
a fabulous candy store... just because a few million people
starve to death or cuz a few thousand of anarchist activists
agitate the hordes of little green idiots... If you says that
you would act differently then... then you will have simply
joined ranks with the hordes of the little green idiots.
... ahahahaha....
>
So, why should this international cartel of C&CH barons give
their position in their cookie store, in particular since they are
all publicly traded multinationals who give fat dividends to 100
of millions of little share holders... ahahaha..
>
It will take EXTRAORDINARY social, economic and political
circumstances to change the current paradigm. But these
conditions are not here... & the few loud Greenies, half of which
are playing, unpaid & unwittingly, into the hands of the agenda
of the C&CH conglomerate... that will not do the trick. ahahaha..
>
Don't you remember Shale Oil, Tar sands, Coal Gasification, etc.
all commercial/financial duds. -- Don't you rem the 30 + year old
Ocean Wave projects, all the Wind farms, all the PV promos,... all
being nothing more than unsuccessful band aids which were failed
attempts to cure a huge global hemmorhoid...
>
Remember "Solar 1" in the desert of California built in 1970. It is
shut down. Remember the vast PV-project in the Libyan desert...
Never got off the ground... Remember Jimmy Carter's Syn Fuel
Corporation, an $80 Billion debacle that got whored into
bankruptcy by OPEC nine years later... ahaha... more here:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/fbea04f3733af667
and here:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/2084d8f1e6393226
wherein it says:
I am continuously impressed by the oil boys of how cleverly
the manipulate the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then
they killed the first green (solar water heat) wave, by simply
providing cheaper and more reliable energy: oil.... all the
way to another cycle when during the Israeli precipitated oil
embargo in ~1971/73 OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani
(Saudi's oil minister) appeared for weeks on all the TV news-
and Talk-show circuits in the US and openly declared that
anybody who thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil
interests is kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody
is becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
& the price at the pump and their profits go up.... ahahahaha.....
>
I am sorry fellas, that I do not have more encouraging news
for you. --- Actually last time I've offered my unpopular opinion, a
fanatical little green idiot, Lion Kunts aka "Awe Shit" investigated
& dug up paydirt in my archive and "Awe Shit", not so brilliantly,
revealed that :
= "hanson is the Chauffeur of Organized Corporate Crime Lords"=
Needless to say, check the record,... sadly, "Awe Shit" is no longer
around. .... ahahaha... AHAHAHAHA...
Thanks for the laughs, guys.... ahahaha... ahahahanson
hanson
** Green Willie Wonka in the enviro chocolate factory ** who
has all the earmarks of one of the many enthusiastic class 2
enviro aspirants. But for rest of his life he will remain a poverty
stricken class 3 enviro, but mostly likely will never realize it.
So, very vociferously & prolix, in 4 his posts, he went against
the mighty Coal-, Gas- & Oil Barons and wrote in message
news:3e31560d-a127-4685...@m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
::WW:: We don't lack resources, we lack imagination and the
::WW:: courage to act on our imagination. The energy problem
::WW:: is solvable. The other problems ditto. Once I get the
::WW:: energy thing under control, I'll show you all how its done.
>
hanson wrote:
ahahaha... But Willie, listen: If we don't lack the resouces why
do we wanna chance? **If it ain't broke -- don't fix it!** ... But,
Willie, my good man, for your last sentence you deserve and
get no 3 "attaboys". And when you "get it under control" & done
what you said, I wanna become your first understudy. Till then
thanks for the laughs and heed the warnings that were given
to you in
<http://groups.google.com/group/sci.chem/msg/3c9acd28ee4c0ae5>
wherein it says:
(1) Yes, you are right, Willie, we are not running out of resources
like coal, oil and gas. --- Cries from the C&CH boys on "Peak oil",
"End of the oil age", "we are running out of oil" are all nothing
but cons to keep clout and control over their domain. -- You can
see that from a simple high school chem. calc, which shows that
>
Initially, "they" say the earth had an anaerobic envelope ~0 % O2.
At hand back then was only (relevant) CO2 and Carbonates.
So, Photosynth. etc. has liberated by now ~21% free O2 into the
air: That translates into ~1E+21 gr or ~1E+15 tons of available
O2. So, each 32 gr of O2 buried somewhere 12-14 gr = 1 C (max
CH4). Hence, there is 1E+21 * 12/32 = 5E+20 gr or ~ 5.E+14
tons of fossil C in store. So, at a current use/consumption/burning
of 3E+15 gr/yr of oil, the fossil stuff (coal, oil & CH4) will be
reoxydised in 5E+20 gr / 3E+15 gr/yr =~ 1.5E+05 years!
>
So, even at a ***1% *** availability of this recourse estimate
the "we are running out of oil" "End of the oil age", or "Peak oil",
may have some gravitas only in 1500 years from now!... ahaha..
and no EARLIER than in 150'000 years from now, when the next
ice age has come and gone, and the green fuckers are not even
a foot note in history anymore, will all the fossil C be burned off.
>
(2) Also Willie, in your great attempt to establish a world that
runs primarily on alternative energy sources watch for the barbs
that will come from the C&CH syndicate and cartels.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/2084d8f1e6393226
They have told you quite openly how cleverly the manipulate
the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then they killed the first
green (solar water heat) wave, by simply providing cheaper
and more reliable energy: oil.... all the way to another cycle
when during the Israeli precipitated oil embargo in ~1971/73
OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani (Saudi's oil minister)
appeared for weeks on all the TV news- and Talk-show
circuits in the US and openly declared that anybody who
thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil interests is
kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody is
becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
& the price at the pump and their profits go up.... ahahahaha...
>
Thanks for the laughs... ahahaha... ahahahanson
>
PS:
Enviros class classification in here:
< http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/70ed6372eccc32ba>
Green Crimes, Green Scams, Green Extortions & Green Lies:
<http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/14968cc3ee9939d4>
.
hanson
the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then they killed the first
green (solar water heat) wave, by simply providing cheaper
and more reliable energy: oil.... all the way to another cycle
when during the Israeli precipitated oil embargo in ~1971/73
OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani (Saudi's oil minister)
appeared for weeks on all the TV news- and Talk-show
circuits in the US and openly declared that anybody who
thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil interests is
kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody is
becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
hanson
the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then they killed the first
green (solar water heat) wave, by simply providing cheaper
and more reliable energy: oil.... all the way to another cycle
when during the Israeli precipitated oil embargo in ~1971/73
OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani (Saudi's oil minister)
appeared for weeks on all the TV news- and Talk-show
circuits in the US and openly declared that anybody who
thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil interests is
kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody is
becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
Androcles
Hey buddy!
As you know I'm not so hot on chemistry and my geology could so
with some brushing up, too, but I do have a question here.
We find fossil leaves in coal just as we find fossil shells in chalk (I have
actually
found one of the second but never one of the first, I don't go coal mining
very much). A perfect scallop measuring 4" in breadth and an inch deep,
an amazing find when I was chatting to old bricklayer while idly picking
at the rockface. He's now long dead, although his beautiful Kent Ragstone
wall is still standing, holding back the chalk from crumbling with frost and
rain
eroding the bank and making an unsightly mess.
http://tinyurl.com/2nfwlo
http://www.favonius.com/romans/points_arising.htm
There was nothing of the shell itself, just the shape.
I gave it to the local museum but they did not seem overly impressed,
even if I was, but then we do have a plethora of calcium carbonate:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/119/290719612_5a27cbaf61.jpg
Anyway, here's my question.
If coal (of which we are NOT running out, there is oodles of it left and
easily accessible, whatever Willie Wonka says) is fossilized timber or peat,
where the hell does oil come from? Is it processed from coal by heat
and pressure from sedimentary rock and/or metamorphic/igneous rock
above it, or is there some other process that takes what is essentially
a biosphere product underground? Is it even a biosphere product?
I'm lost here, I just don't know.
hanson
"Androcles" <Headm...@Hogwarts.physics> wrote in message
> Hey buddy!
> As you know I'm not so hot on chemistry and my geology could
> so with some brushing up, too, but I do have a question here.
> We find fossil leaves in coal just as we find fossil shells in chalk
> (I have actually found one of the second but never one of the first,
> I don't go coal mining very much). A perfect scallop measuring
> 4" in breadth and an inch deep, an amazing find when I was
> chatting to old bricklayer while idly picking at the rockface. He's
> now long dead, although his beautiful Kent Ragstone wall is still
> standing, holding back the chalk from crumbling with frost and
> rain eroding the bank and making an unsightly mess.
> http://tinyurl.com/2nfwlo
> http://www.favonius.com/romans/points_arising.htm
> There was nothing of the shell itself, just the shape. I gave it to
> the local museum but they did not seem overly impressed, even
> if I was, but then we do have a plethora of calcium carbonate:
> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/119/290719612_5a27cbaf61.jpg
>
Anyway, here's my question.
If coal (of which we are NOT running out, there is oodles of it left
and easily accessible, whatever Willie Wonka says) is fossilized
timber or peat, where the hell does oil come from? Is it processed
from coal by heat and pressure from sedimentary rock and/or
metamorphic/igneous rock above it, or is there some other process
that takes what is essentially a biosphere product underground?
Is it even a biosphere product? I'm lost here, I just don't know.
>
Well, I am not the expert you should ask about this, but AFAIU
here is a widely held conjecture of evolutionary events: When
the world cooled there were the anoxic oceans with eventually
anaerobic life forms in an atmosphere that was largely CO2.
Then some life forms "discovered" photosynthesis like Cyano
bacteria, Algae and the famous Stromatolites, which "ate" the
CO2 and made sugars and cellulose out of it for their own use
--- 6 CO2 + 6 H2O + hf ---> C6H12O6 (glucose) + 6 O2 ---
-- C6H12O6 (glucose) --enzm --> C6H10O5 (St/Cel)+ H2O --
and farted out O2 in the process. They were so successful
that the also colonized the land as ferns, grass & later trees
which changed the atmosphere from CO2-major into O2-major.
(N2 has a different roll not deeply germane to the question here)
>
These scenarios are naturally all hypotheses and conjectures.
Anyways, it is believed today that the remains of the life forms
in the oceans eventually turned into Gas or Oil,...
-- C6H12O6 (glucose) + heat & pr ---> 3 CH4 (gas) + 3 CO2
- 3 C6H10O5 (c'lose) + h&pr --> 12 CH2: (oil) + 6 CO2 + 3 H2O
whereas decaying organic matter from organisms on land
formed the peat bogs, brown coal & finally anthracite beds.
-- C6H10O5 (starch/cellulose)+heat --> 6 C (coal)+5 H2O
>
Plate tectonics moved the loci around which is why oil is found
too in the middle of inland desert plateaus and under mountains.
Same for the coal beds and in few locations you find oil and
coal together. -- Furthermore, oil deposits when near they surface
can eventually turn into coal as is seen in the Tar pits, shale oil,
and tar sands. Then there is also the abiogenist formation of coal
and oil, a still hotly debated issue for which Thomas Gold was a
fanatic about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
http://econtent-01.its.yale.edu/paleo/pdf/Oldest_Fossil.pdf
>
To me all these things are of belletristic interest but not worthwhile
getting hot over, because all these stories will not buy me a single
cup of coffee without me having worked for or conned $4 out of
someone who did some honeste work and harvested the food
stuff with his hands.
>
Take care, Andro.
hanson
Androcles
Ok, thanks, that satisfies my curiousity. Keep up the honest day's work,
I've just had a letter from Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency telling
me I'm losing my truck license on medical grounds so that's the last
of the honest day's work for me. Not that I've driven anything in the last
few years but it was fun for a while and better than tapping a keyboard
for a living, even if it didn't pay as well. I miss never getting to drive a
train but we can't have everything.
Willie...@gmail.com
oodles more.
Here are the reserves still existing;
Oil: 1.2 billion barrels
Gas: 1.2 billion barrels oil equivalanet (heat value)
Coal: 4.8 billion barrels oil equivalent (heat value)
Here are the annual flows
Oil: 28.2 billion barrels
Gas: 17.2 billion barrels oil equivalent
Coal: 19.0 billion barrels oil equivalent
Life span (constant production assumed)
Oil: 45 years
Gas: 72 years
Coal: 252 years
These are oft-quoted. What is not counted are
a) natural reduction in output as we pass the peak output for Earth.
b) increasing rates of consumption
c) limited supply of air to burn all this stuff
d) efficiencies of converting gas and coal to liquid fuels
Demand for energy rises by 4% per year world wide. In less developed
regions this can be as high as 10% per year. China and India, have
maintained increases in demand in the 9% range for a decade. So,
lets crank in a 7% rise over the next 30 years and see what happens -
meanwhile - using a logistic production curve for oil coal and natural
gas based on their initial complement before industry got started - we
can see what the situation is.
Coal is assumed to peak in 2200, Natural gas in 2095, and oil in 2025
- which are high estimates of reserves. Demand is based on 7% per
annum growth - that's the growth rate in supply that would result in
stable prices for energy with a slight downward trend;
PRODUCTION DEMAND
YEAR COAL OIL GAS COAL OIL GAS
2004 19.1 28.4 17.3 19.13 28.40 17.26
2011 20.9 30.1 19.2 20.47 30.39 18.47
2018 22.8 31.3 21.2 21.90 32.52 19.76
2025 24.9 31.9 23.2 23.44 34.79 21.14
2032 27.1 31.9 25.4 25.08 37.23 22.62
2039 29.4 31.3 27.5 26.83 39.83 24.21
2046 31.9 30.1 29.6 28.71 42.62 25.90
2053 34.6 28.4 31.6 30.72 45.60 27.71
2060 37.4 26.3 33.5 32.87 48.80 29.65
2067 40.4 24.0 35.2 35.17 52.21 31.73
2074 43.4 21.6 36.6 37.63 55.87 33.95
2081 46.7 19.1 37.7 40.27 59.78 36.33
2088 50.0 16.7 38.5 43.09 63.96 38.87
2095 53.4 14.5 38.9 46.10 68.44 41.59
Now we can compute the differences between production and demand to
determine if downward or stable prices may be sustained;
DIFFERENCE CONVERSION REVISED
YEAR COAL OIL GAS CTL GTL OIL
2004 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 28.40
2011 0.43 (0.29) 0.69 0.22 0.34 30.66
2018 0.91 (1.21) 1.39 0.45 0.70 32.46
2025 1.43 (2.86) 2.08 0.71 1.04 33.69
2032 1.99 (5.29) 2.73 0.99 1.36 34.29
2039 2.58 (8.53) 3.28 1.29 1.64 34.24
2046 3.21 (12.52) 3.69 1.61 1.84 33.55
2053 3.86 (17.20) 3.89 1.93 1.95 32.28
2060 4.52 (22.47) 3.83 2.26 1.91 30.50
2067 5.18 (28.20) 3.43 2.59 1.71 28.31
2074 5.81 (34.30) 2.63 2.91 1.32 25.79
2081 6.40 (40.66) 1.37 3.20 0.69 23.01
2088 6.92 (47.22) (0.40) 3.46 20.21
2095 7.34 (53.93) (2.73) 3.67 18.18
So, we have surplus coal and natural gas in this scenario. We can
convert natural gas to liquid fuels by converting methane to methanol
through partial oxidation, and then dehydrating methanol to form iso-
octane. This is the mobil gas to liquids process. About half the
energy in the natural gas is available in the form of the liquid
fuel.
We can also convert coal to liquid fuels using the Fischer-Tropsch
process. Here about half the energy again is available in the form of
liquid fuels made in this way. So, we take the excesses available to
us in the form of coal and natural gas, and convert that to liquid
fuels to make up the short fall.
This makes up the difference and allows stable prices through 2060.
Beyond 2060 if we are to maintain stable growth in our economy we need
an alternative. That alternative is likely to be nuclear - the
Generation 4 nuclear reactor is a high temperature reactor that
converts water to hydrogen by thermolytic processes, and uses that
hydrogen directly, or with coal to produce hydro-carbons.
This was proposed as far back as the Johnson Administration, in 1964,
and then again by the Carter Administration - until Three Mile Island,
China Syndrome, and Chernobyl removed nuclear from the table. The
Nixon Administration established the present regime of rogue states
among oil rich countries, and sought to manage the increase to
maintain stable albeit high prices.
This ushered in the age of high priced energy and the dominance of the
Middle East politics over our national policy.
The Generation 4 nuclear program is slated to introduce working
systems around 2040 time frame, and be ready to go by 2060 in a major
way - 100 years after it was first possible - which is pretty damn
lucky for the oil gas and coal companies. I mean, if we introduced
Generation 4 reactors back in the 1960s rather than wait until the
2060s- why they'd be stuck with useless hydrocarbons - that would
undermine the value of both hydrocarbons and synfuels. Of course by
waiting 100 years, the hydrocarbons are sold off at a high price, and
a high price is established for synfuels going in - its win win
between Exxon/Shell and GE/Westinghouse.
OF course the cost to the global community in higher energy prices and
the reduction in capital formation and living standards and so forth
over this century, isn't counted in this analysis.
Here's the plan;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_IV_reactor
Here's where it came from;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor
Here's an overview of fossil fuels;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel
http://daily.stanford.org/article/2001/6/6/geologistDiscussesFossilFuel
Here's a more in-depth analysis
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=aWHtMb2rBT0C&dq=geology+of+fossil+fuels&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=2h3WAw5Hzu&sig=CLgV0OkCUo-5sblLGXzuaDM51Bg#PPP1,M1
Here's an industry blurb - you can go fossil hunting at a coal mine!
http://www.discoveringfossils.co.uk/fossilfuels.htm
Willie...@gmail.com
of liquid fuels from solar-assisted Bergius reaction with coal. Here,
hydrogen is derived from the electrolytic decomposition of water using
solar energy. That hydrogen is combined with coal, and produces
liquid fuels. Here only half the energy is derived from coal, so we
can create larger surpluses - and we have a hydrogen source operating
in parallel with it, paid for by the high fuel prices.
We still to Gas To Liquid, and use Solar Assisted Bergius for Solar
CTL. This takes us through 2030 - and allows us to produce 8% of the
world's energy supply by then. After that, I intend to displace
natural gas and coal with hydrogen by direct substitution - burning
hydrogen wherever these fuels are used. Then using the gas and coal
saved to produce hydrocarbon liquids with solar assisted process.
DIFFERENCE CONVERSION
YEAR COAL OIL GAS Solar CTL GTL Total Difference
2004 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
2011 0.43 (0.29) 0.69 0.86 0.34 1.21 0.92
2018 0.91 (1.21) 1.39 1.81 0.70 2.51 1.30
2025 1.43 (2.86) 2.08 2.85 1.04 3.89 1.04
2032 1.99 (5.29) 2.73 3.97 1.36 5.34 0.05
2039 2.58 (8.53) 3.28 5.17 1.64 6.81 (1.72)
2046 3.21 (12.52) 3.69 6.42 1.84 8.27 (4.26)
2053 3.86 (17.20) 3.89 7.72 1.95 9.67 (7.54)
2060 4.52 (22.47) 3.83 9.04 1.91 10.96 (11.51)
2067 5.18 (28.20) 3.43 10.36 1.71 12.07 (16.13)
2074 5.81 (34.30) 2.63 11.63 1.32 12.94 (21.36)
2081 6.40 (40.66) 1.37 12.81 0.69 13.49 (27.17)
2088 6.92 (47.22) (0.40) 13.85 13.85 (33.37)
2095 7.34 (53.93) (2.73) 14.68 14.68 (39.25)
This provides room for 42 solar-CTL plants by 2030 with 8% of the
market. A quantum leap is possible with technology (bandgap matched
solar pumped lasers on orbit increase output of solar panel arrays by
16x) to begin shipping massive quantities of hydrogen gas and liquids
along with massive quantities of hydrocarbons (about 30% of the total)
to undercut existing suppliers by that time and shift the market
toward hydrogen.
Willie...@gmail.com
column. 2025 is when we start having trouble with oil supplies and
oil prices are 2x to 3x what they are today ($250 - $350 per barrel)
hanson
** Green Willie Wonka in the enviro chocolate factory ** who
has all the earmarks of one of the many enthusiastic class 2
enviro aspirants. But for rest of his life he will remain a poverty
stricken class 3 enviro, but mostly likely will never realize it.
in message
news:01e957c8-dc3a-4b22...@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
We don't have oodles of coal.
There is more of it than oil, but not oodles more.
>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.renewable/msg/1f25c61fc45ad11b
Hey Wonka, read what it says in that link.. or don't you
comprehend that having reserves for at east 1500 more
years IS pretty much oodles. Let me peel it out for you here:
>
... "they" say the earth had an anaerobic envelope ~0 % O2.
At hand back then was only (relevant) CO2 and Carbonates.
So, Photosynth. etc. has liberated by now ~21% free O2 into the
air: That translates into ~1E+21 gr or ~1E+15 tons of available
O2. So, each 32 gr of O2 buried somewhere 12-14 gr = 1 C (max
CH4). Hence, there is 1E+21 * 12/32 = 5E+20 gr or ~ 5.E+14
tons of fossil C in store. So, at a current use/consumption/burning
of 3E+15 gr/yr of oil, the fossil stuff (coal, oil & CH4) will be
reoxydised in 5E+20 gr / 3E+15 gr/yr =~ 1.5E+05 years!
>
So, even at a ***1% *** availability of this recourse estimate
the "we are running out of oil" "End of the oil age", or "Peak oil",
may have some gravitas only in 1500 years from now!... ahaha..
and no EARLIER than in 150'000 years from now, when the next
ice age has come and gone, and the green fuckers are not even
a foot note in history anymore, will all the fossil C be burned off.
>
deal with that "oodleing" situation and use it to fuck the world's
population over... and over... and over again AND using you little
green idiots as their loud, but unpaid and unwitting facilitators and
enabler to fill their fat wallets and con the last dime out of yours:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.renewable/msg/1f25c61fc45ad11b
Thanks for the laughs you green fool.... ahahha... ahahanson
hanson
** Green Willie Wonka in the enviro chocolate factory ** who
has all the earmarks of one of the many enthusiastic class 2
enviro aspirants. But for rest of his life he will remain a poverty
stricken class 3 enviro, but mostly likely will never realize it.
in message
I said 2060 - and that's not right. I was looking at the wrong
column. 2025 is when we start having trouble with oil supplies and
oil prices are 2x to 3x what they are today ($250 - $350 per barrel)
>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.renewable/msg/1f25c61fc45ad11b
Hey Wonka, of course you are not right. Read what it says in that
link and see why and how you will be ending up on the short
end of the stick... You are a loud but little nobody in the energy
game and unknowingly and unwittingly play FOR and help the
agenda of the big C&CH boys. Let me peel it out for you here:
>
... "they" say the earth had an anaerobic envelope ~0 % O2.
At hand back then was only (relevant) CO2 and Carbonates.
So, Photosynth. etc. has liberated by now ~21% free O2 into the
air: That translates into ~1E+21 gr or ~1E+15 tons of available
O2. So, each 32 gr of O2 buried somewhere 12-14 gr = 1 C (max
CH4). Hence, there is 1E+21 * 12/32 = 5E+20 gr or ~ 5.E+14
tons of fossil C in store. So, at a current use/consumption/burning
of 3E+15 gr/yr of oil, the fossil stuff (coal, oil & CH4) will be
reoxydised in 5E+20 gr / 3E+15 gr/yr =~ 1.5E+05 years!
>
So, even at a ***1% *** availability of this recourse estimate
the "we are running out of oil" "End of the oil age", or "Peak oil",
may have some gravitas only in 1500 years from now!... ahaha..
and no EARLIER than in 150'000 years from now, when the next
ice age has come and gone, and the green fuckers are not even
a foot note in history anymore, will all the fossil C be burned off.
>
hanson
** Green Willie Wonka in the enviro chocolate factory ** who
has all the earmarks of one of the many enthusiastic class 2
enviro aspirants. But for rest of his life he will remain a poverty
stricken class 3 enviro, but mostly likely will never realize it.
in message
My goal is that by 2011 I will supply 0.146 billion barrels per year
>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.renewable/msg/1f25c61fc45ad11b
Hey Wonka, read what it says in that link.. or don't you
comprehend that having reserves for at east 1500 more
>
... "they" say the earth had an anaerobic envelope ~0 % O2.
At hand back then was only (relevant) CO2 and Carbonates.
So, Photosynth. etc. has liberated by now ~21% free O2 into the
air: That translates into ~1E+21 gr or ~1E+15 tons of available
O2. So, each 32 gr of O2 buried somewhere 12-14 gr = 1 C (max
CH4). Hence, there is 1E+21 * 12/32 = 5E+20 gr or ~ 5.E+14
tons of fossil C in store. So, at a current use/consumption/burning
of 3E+15 gr/yr of oil, the fossil stuff (coal, oil & CH4) will be
reoxydised in 5E+20 gr / 3E+15 gr/yr =~ 1.5E+05 years!
>
So, even at a ***1% *** availability of this recourse estimate
the "we are running out of oil" "End of the oil age", or "Peak oil",
may have some gravitas only in 1500 years from now!... ahaha..
and no EARLIER than in 150'000 years from now, when the next
ice age has come and gone, and the green fuckers are not even
a foot note in history anymore, will all the fossil C be burned off.
>
Willie...@gmail.com
left and within 5 to 15 years depending on which estimates you
believe, extracted oil will peak. By 2035 even with agressive gas-to-
liquids and coal-to-liquids we'll be struggling to keep up with
demand.
My approach which augments the coal-to-liquids process with hydrogen,
and displaces conventional fossil fuel in thermal generators with
hydrogen - allows continued expansion and a gradual conversion to
hydrogen generally over the next 40 years.
That's it.
Your stuff is bogus. Its not supported by the scientific evidence or
the experience of folks in the field looking for new sources of oil
and gas and coal.
Willie...@gmail.com
you are proceeding from a misapprehension. You assume I am motivated
by environmental concerns. While these are important, they are not
central to my thesis. My thesis is that low cost oil is at an end.
We have a choice, cut back consumption or find another way. I offer
another way that happens to extend the period of low cost oil, and set
the stage for even lower cost hydrogen beyond the oil age - while
providing an easy transition between the two.
Nothing you say really addresses these facts, since you seem to be
immune to facts, and more addicted to drama having nothing to do with
fact.
Willie...@gmail.com
lie you can make it true! lol. The 1,200 barrels of oil in the
world derive from ancient bomass converted over millions of years.
When we run through this reserve, there won't be any more. Peak
output will occur sometime in the next 10 to 15 years. Agressive
programs to convert gas to liquids and coal to liquids will delay
dramatic price rises until 2025 - after that there are problems. Low
cost hydrogen produced electrolytically using my process today - will
reduce carbon foot print, and will also extend the age of low cost oil
another 40 years - and will naturally lead to a transition to a
hydrogen economy with even lower cost energy after that.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Why not go the whole way, and extract CO2 from the atmosphere?
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
Remote Viewing classes in London
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
All we need is a really good battery technology and within a couple of
decades oil would only be needed for aircraft.
Anthony Matonak
...
> All we need is a really good battery technology and within a couple of
> decades oil would only be needed for aircraft.
Maybe not even then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_airplane
Anthony
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
message news:482f1626$0$12974$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Where does the energy to charge the battery come from? Because
right now, a good portion of it comes from fossil fuels.
David A. Smith
hanson
** Green Willie Wonka in the enviro chocolate factory **
in their green delirium that by posting their opinion on the
Usenet they will be/affect more than just their own opinion...
ahahaha... and so he beseeched me as if him convincing
me with his phantasms will change anything.... ahaha.. and
thus Willie Wonka wrote:
>
::WW:: I offer another way and set the stage for even lower
::WW:: cost hydrogen beyond the oil age. Nothing you say
::WW:: really addresses these facts, since you seem to be
::WW:: immune to facts, and more addicted to drama having
::WW:: nothing to do with fact.
>
hanson wrote:
Willie listen, your interchangeable moaning and bragging
about the state of C&CH affairs are commendable but you
offer NOTHING that is not every day garden variety and
futile enviro tabloid greenery, because your are not smart
enough to understand Chem. 101 & much less to grasp the
politics around the fact that cheap coal/oil/gas is abundantly
available for AT LEAST another 1500 years. So, I will repeat
the facts of real life, for your benefit (with an amendment of
current events at the end of this post):
>
------The C&CH reserves -----------
Initially, "they" say the earth had an anaerobic envelope ~0 % O2.
At hand back then was only (relevant) CO2 and Carbonates.
So, Photosynth. etc. has liberated by now ~21% free O2 into the
air: That translates into ~1E+21 gr or ~1E+15 tons of available
O2. So, each 32 gr of O2 buried somewhere 12-14 gr = 1 C (max
CH4). Hence, there is 1E+21 * 12/32 = 5E+20 gr or ~ 5.E+14
tons of fossil C in store. So, at a current use/consumption/burning
of 3E+15 gr/yr of oil, the fossil stuff (coal, oil & CH4) will be
reoxydised in 5E+20 gr / 3E+15 gr/yr =~ 1.5E+05 years!
>
the "we are running out of oil" "End of the oil age", or "Peak oil",
may have some gravitas only in 1500 years from now!... ahaha..
and no EARLIER than in 150'000 years from now, when the next
ice age has come and gone, and the green fuckers are not even
a foot note in history anymore, will all the fossil C be burned off.
>
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/2084d8f1e6393226
They have told you quite openly how cleverly the manipulate
the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then they killed the first
green (solar water heat) wave, by simply providing cheaper
and more reliable energy: oil.... all the way to another cycle
when during the Israeli precipitated oil embargo in ~1971/73
OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani (Saudi's oil minister)
appeared for weeks on all the TV news- and Talk-show
circuits in the US and openly declared that anybody who
thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil interests is
kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody is
becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
& the price at the pump and their profits go up.... ahahahaha...
>
So, Bush went onto his epic 2008 journey into the ME to ease
the pain at the gas pump in the US... ahaha... Manipulated by
the Neocons (=US-Zionists), as he always is, Bush 1st went to
the Holey Land, the chief parasite of the USA, kissed kike-ass
there, ridiculed his possible presidential successor, whilst they
expanded their "settlements" in their classical way like here:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O9W3UsdRyM> or here
<http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f>
>
With that "success" in hand, "Bush, the Brilliant", went to see his
old ass-venter buddies in Mecca, who promptly gave him the
finger & coyly reminded him that the 9/11-2001 team consisted
of 19 Saudis, not Iraqis and not Afghans, but Saudi's who were
sent by the Saudi royalty to deliver a message as a signal that
they didn't like Bushs' extreme politics of kike-ass-licking. Bush
of course kept on sucking off Neocon dicks upon which the
Saudis told the US military on 2/23-2003 to leave their land of
Sunni ass-venters... --- ... and so, after 5 more years of Bush's
unrelenting Jew-dick sucking ... Bush had the phantasm to get
back to the Saudis with a Yarmulke in his hand & he expected
to get relief from them... ahahahaha... AHAHAHAHA... whilst
at the same times the kikes in the US ran TV commercials
saying: "Thank you, US, for helping Israel in a time of need"...
ahahahaha.. You must hand it to the Jews... ahahahaha...
>
Now Willie, you being an emotional cyber nobody, I can & do
understand your frustration with the situation, especially when
your own president is as useless as you are in influencing or
changing and much less controlling the situation, because of
opposing forces within his own government.... ahahahaha....
So, keep up with in your endeavors... and I wish you well.
hanson
** Green Willie Wonka in the enviro chocolate factory **
in their green delirium that by posting their opinion on the
Usenet they will be/affect more than just their own opinion...
ahahaha... and so he beseeched me as if him convincing
me with his phantasms will change anything.... ahaha.. and
thus Willie Wonka wrote:
>
::WW:: I offer another way and set the stage for even lower
::WW:: cost hydrogen beyond the oil age. Nothing you say
::WW:: really addresses these facts, since you seem to be
::WW:: immune to facts, and more addicted to drama having
::WW:: nothing to do with fact.
>
hanson wrote:
Willie listen, your interchangeable moaning and bragging
about the state of C&CH affairs are commendable but you
offer NOTHING that is not every day garden variety and
futile enviro tabloid greenery, because your are not smart
enough to understand Chem. 101 & much less to grasp the
politics around the fact that cheap coal/oil/gas is abundantly
available for AT LEAST another 1500 years. So, I will repeat
the facts of real life, for your benefit (with an amendment of
current events at the end of this post):
>
------The C&CH reserves -----------
At hand back then was only (relevant) CO2 and Carbonates.
So, Photosynth. etc. has liberated by now ~21% free O2 into the
air: That translates into ~1E+21 gr or ~1E+15 tons of available
O2. So, each 32 gr of O2 buried somewhere 12-14 gr = 1 C (max
CH4). Hence, there is 1E+21 * 12/32 = 5E+20 gr or ~ 5.E+14
tons of fossil C in store. So, at a current use/consumption/burning
of 3E+15 gr/yr of oil, the fossil stuff (coal, oil & CH4) will be
reoxydised in 5E+20 gr / 3E+15 gr/yr =~ 1.5E+05 years!
>
the "we are running out of oil" "End of the oil age", or "Peak oil",
may have some gravitas only in 1500 years from now!... ahaha..
and no EARLIER than in 150'000 years from now, when the next
ice age has come and gone, and the green fuckers are not even
a foot note in history anymore, will all the fossil C be burned off.
>
They have told you quite openly how cleverly the manipulate
the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then they killed the first
green (solar water heat) wave, by simply providing cheaper
and more reliable energy: oil.... all the way to another cycle
when during the Israeli precipitated oil embargo in ~1971/73
OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani (Saudi's oil minister)
appeared for weeks on all the TV news- and Talk-show
circuits in the US and openly declared that anybody who
thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil interests is
kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody is
becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
& the price at the pump and their profits go up.... ahahahaha...
>
hanson
** Green Willie Wonka in the enviro chocolate factory **
in their green delirium that by posting their opinion on the
Usenet they will be/affect more than just their own opinion...
ahahaha... and so he beseeched me as if him convincing
me with his phantasms will change anything.... ahaha.. and
thus Willie Wonka wrote:
>
::WW:: I offer another way and set the stage for even lower
::WW:: cost hydrogen beyond the oil age. Nothing you say
::WW:: really addresses these facts, since you seem to be
::WW:: immune to facts, and more addicted to drama having
::WW:: nothing to do with fact.
>
hanson wrote:
Willie listen, your interchangeable moaning and bragging
about the state of C&CH affairs are commendable but you
offer NOTHING that is not every day garden variety and
futile enviro tabloid greenery, because your are not smart
enough to understand Chem. 101 & much less to grasp the
politics around the fact that cheap coal/oil/gas is abundantly
available for AT LEAST another 1500 years. So, I will repeat
the facts of real life, for your benefit (with an amendment of
current events at the end of this post):
>
------The C&CH reserves -----------
At hand back then was only (relevant) CO2 and Carbonates.
So, Photosynth. etc. has liberated by now ~21% free O2 into the
air: That translates into ~1E+21 gr or ~1E+15 tons of available
O2. So, each 32 gr of O2 buried somewhere 12-14 gr = 1 C (max
CH4). Hence, there is 1E+21 * 12/32 = 5E+20 gr or ~ 5.E+14
tons of fossil C in store. So, at a current use/consumption/burning
of 3E+15 gr/yr of oil, the fossil stuff (coal, oil & CH4) will be
reoxydised in 5E+20 gr / 3E+15 gr/yr =~ 1.5E+05 years!
>
the "we are running out of oil" "End of the oil age", or "Peak oil",
may have some gravitas only in 1500 years from now!... ahaha..
and no EARLIER than in 150'000 years from now, when the next
ice age has come and gone, and the green fuckers are not even
a foot note in history anymore, will all the fossil C be burned off.
>
They have told you quite openly how cleverly the manipulate
the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then they killed the first
green (solar water heat) wave, by simply providing cheaper
and more reliable energy: oil.... all the way to another cycle
when during the Israeli precipitated oil embargo in ~1971/73
OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani (Saudi's oil minister)
appeared for weeks on all the TV news- and Talk-show
circuits in the US and openly declared that anybody who
thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil interests is
kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody is
becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
& the price at the pump and their profits go up.... ahahahaha...
>
Anthony Matonak
Where did lamp oil come from? It used to be whales.
What would the world do when we run out of whales
for oil?
Anthony
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Solar PV
Plenty of sand and deserts
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
"Anthony Matonak" <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote in
message news:482f5954$0$5181$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
Great story! Doesn't answer the question. A better battery gets
its charge from... what?
Then when we wean ourselves off of oil / coal for energy, can we
do the same for the chemical / industrial processes that
currently are based on fossil fuel? Plastics, cosmetics,
pharmaceuticals...
David A. Smith
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
"Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6997t1F...@mid.individual.net...
> N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
>> "Anthony Matonak" <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote
>> in message news:482f1626$0$12974$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
>>> Dirk Bruere at NeoPax wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> All we need is a really good battery technology
>>>> and within a couple of decades oil would only
>>>> be needed for aircraft.
>>> Maybe not even then.
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_airplane
>>
>> Where does the energy to charge the battery
>> come from? Because right now, a good
>> portion of it comes from fossil fuels.
>
> Solar PV
> Plenty of sand and deserts
Yes, I see it right out my window. Going to be 105 degF in the
next day or so.
So "all we need" are distributed PV farms AND really good battery
technology AND inexpensive means to synchronize distibtuted PV
farms to the global power grid AND a global intent to implement
same NOW?
David A. Smith
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
PV seems on track for producing electricity at prices at or below
fossil. Battery tech has quite a way to go, but companies like A123 are
making good progress. Global power grid not needed - continental s fine.
At as for now, it will happen as it becomes economical, which (I
estimate) will be in about 4-5 years (although several companies, inc
Nanosolar, claim that they can match fossil fuel now)
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
Extract CO2 from the air, mix it with H2 and you have all the feedstock
you want.
Anthony Matonak
> "Anthony Matonak" <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote in
>> N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
>>> "Anthony Matonak" <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote
>>>> ...
>>>>> All we need is a really good battery technology
>>>>> and within a couple of decades oil would only
>>>>> be needed for aircraft.
>>>> Maybe not even then.
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_airplane
>>> Where does the energy to charge the battery
>>> come from? Because right now, a good portion
>>> of it comes from fossil fuels.
>> Where did lamp oil come from? It used to be
>> whales. What would the world do when we
>> run out of whales for oil?
>
> Great story! Doesn't answer the question. A better battery gets
> its charge from... what?
Anything that can produce electricity, of course. We're already using
fossil fuels, nuclear and hydro. Wind and solar haven't even begun to
be used and no one has yet to even try to tap into the massive potential
of high altitude winds, ocean currents or biomass. Even further out
there are rumors about fusion and orbiting power satellites.
> Then when we wean ourselves off of oil / coal for energy, can we
> do the same for the chemical / industrial processes that
> currently are based on fossil fuel? Plastics, cosmetics,
> pharmaceuticals...
Yes. Several projects have already demonstrated the ability to use
vegetable oils as feedstock for various plastics. I don't see what
is so special about fossil oil (other than it's low cost) compared
to vegetable and animal oils.
More to the point, it may be that many of the things the world currently
uses oil and plastics for are just wasteful and not required. Plastic
grocery bags seem like a good example. Do we really need them? Some
countries have already banned their use and they don't seem to have any
problems because of this. Transportation is another example. Switching
from truck to rail for long distance freight hauling could save a lot
of energy and money. Shipping is another example. Why not use nuclear
reactors for those massive super-tankers and container ships instead
of burning oil? When they're docked they could provide power to the
local shipyard or city.
Anthony
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
And a lot of fun for Al Quaida
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
"Anthony Matonak" <antho...@nothing.like.socal.rr.com> wrote in
message news:482fd457$0$3373$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) wrote:
...
>>> Where did lamp oil come from? It used to be
>>> whales. What would the world do when we
>>> run out of whales for oil?
>>
>> Great story! Doesn't answer the question. A
>> better battery gets its charge from... what?
>
> Anything that can produce electricity, of course.
> We're already using fossil fuels, nuclear and
> hydro.
... and solar and wind.
> Wind and solar haven't even begun to be used
... as much as they should be ...
> and no one has yet to even try to tap into the
> massive potential of high altitude winds, ocean
> currents or biomass.
Tidal generators and biomass both have projects underway.
I fear what tapping the jet stream or deep ocean currents would
do to climate gloablly. England and Japan would be severely
affected if these currents were altered. Those velocities are
high, because there is almost no drag...
> Even further out there are rumors about
> fusion and orbiting power satellites.
>
>> Then when we wean ourselves off of oil /
>> coal for energy, can we do the same for the
>> chemical / industrial processes that currently are based on
>> fossil fuel? Plastics,
>> cosmetics, pharmaceuticals...
>
> Yes. Several projects have already
> demonstrated the ability to use vegetable oils
> as feedstock for various plastics.
Yay!
Presumably we can harvest our H2 from other feedstocks too?
Economically, I mean. Not via electrolysis...
> I don't see what is so special about fossil
> oil (other than it's low cost) compared to
> vegetable and animal oils.
There are a number of things that are special. Fewer people in
the production chain, small variations in product quality from a
wide area, no significant blights, no sensitivity to drought. To
name a few. Only downside is it seems to form "dictators"... and
make the consumer into a slave.
> More to the point, it may be that many of
> the things the world currently uses oil and
> plastics for are just wasteful and not required.
Life is "wasteful and not required."
> Plastic grocery bags seem like a good
> example. Do we really need them?
Yes. Must we recycle *all* plastics. Yes.
> Some countries have already banned their
> use and they don't seem to have any
> problems because of this.
Their roads are also not paved with gold. In fact, they are just
like us. So it changed nothing, except that they gave on on
recycling films.
> Transportation is another example.
> Switching from truck to rail for long
> distance freight hauling could save a lot
> of energy and money.
About half of that is done that way now. As soon as time becomes
less important than money, the rest can change. Moving freight
eastwards in the US has a bottleneck in the number of lines, and
engines (etc.), available for transport.
> Shipping is another example. Why not
> use nuclear reactors for those massive
> super-tankers
... tankers no longer required in this future being cooked up ...
> and container ships instead of burning oil?
Freight cost goes up. You need highly trained individuals to
operate the reactors. And inspections. And maintenance of the
cooling surfaces. Tankers are sunk, run aground, etc. usually in
ecologically sensitive or populated areas. Same for container
ships. Now you will have even more radioactive materials there.
> When they're docked they could provide
> power to the local shipyard or city.
As long as the shipping company gets paid for use of their
nuclear fuel, you are probably right.
David A. Smith
Willie...@gmail.com
offensive.
Here are the salient points about energy in the USA;
The USA uses
6.8 billion barrels of crude oil per year
1.1 billion tons fo coal
0.3 billion tons of natural gas.
Replacing the coal and natural gas with 0.3 billion tons of hydrogen
and with an additional 0.1 billion tons of hyrogen and 0.3 billion
tons of oxygen - we create 7.8 billion barrels of oil from coal and
4.2 billion barrels of oil from natural gas - that when combined with
1.8 billion barrels of crude oil produced conventionally allows the
USA to export 6.0 billion barrels of crude oil from domestic
sources.
This allows us to work with China to supply their needs while
stabilizing our currency, and undermining the nightmares we've created
in the middle east. Meanwhlle, setting the stage for the eventual
emergence of a global hydrogen economy dominated by the United States.
Oil is down to $30 per barrel - and hydrogen is sold for $800 per
tonne - which is equivalent to this oil price. Gasoline is $1.50 per
gallon again.
Basically, we replace the control regime that failed on 9/11 with a
newer more robust control regime to re-establish US global
hegemony.
At the end of world war two we sought to control the retail and
banking functions of the world to maintain a dominant position in the
world. This derives from the fact that a farmer or miner who creates
a dollars worth of product sees that value increased 3 to 5 times at
the hands of a baker, or steel mill, and sees it increase 3 to 5 times
again 9 to 25 times overall - by the retailer who packages and
presents and finances the product to users.
So the US occupied a dominant position in this supply chain. The USA
exported manufacturing and farming and mining overseas, and reserved
banking, finance, and retail to itself. People would grow enough
cotton to make 25 tee-shirts in exchange for 1 tee-shirt, and other
people would make 25 tee shorts for 4 tee-shirts, leaving 20 of the 25
tee shirts to be on the backs of Americans.
We did this for one reason and one reason only. It kept all the money
in the hands of the Americans. So, Americans could spend 5 cents of
every dollar on its military, meanwhile, to challenge the USA, others,
as the former Soviets found out, had to spend 50 cents of every dollar
or more to challenge USA dominance.
This kept the peace during the cold war.
Yet, it created conditions that brought the terror attacks of 9/11.
Al Queda and the Taliban were supported as our proxies in getting the
Soviets out of Afghanistan - and as a consequence were trained in
tactics and military operations - which were later used against us.
So we need to do something different.
We need to use technology to get control of commoditiy prices. We can
do this first with energy. We'll do it later with other products.
Next with communications and food. In this way we can re-establish a
kinder gentler hegemony based on a philosphy of growth rather than
disparity.
V-for-Vendicar
<Willie...@gmail.com> wrote
> Basically, we replace the control regime that failed on 9/11 with a
> newer more robust control regime to re-establish US global
> hegemony.
Ahahahahahaha... AmeriKKKa is already being squashed like a bug.
AmeriKKKa is both incompetent and powerless. Uncle Sam can't even get the
water running after 5 years of trying, in a nation like Iraq.
AmeriKKKa is the most hated nation on earth, and rightly so. Even
AmeriKKKa's "friends" are telling it to go fuck itself.
hanson
"Willie keep up with in your endeavors and I wish you well".
So Willie, why are you cranking yourself and lamenting
like a fanatic who doesn't know what he is talking about?
Here read again what was said:
>
<Willie...@gmail.com> said that ...
::WW:: your foul mouthed name calling is totally nonsensical
::WW:: as it is offensive. Here are the salient points about
::WW::energy in the USA;
hanson
aka "VD-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com>
aka VD-Scotty, the GLOBAL COOLING DENIALIST, with his red
pants frozen in snow and ice...ahaha... who had bragged that he
**never** drove & much less ever owned an automobile, Scuttled
his Nutts, but he made a rare factual observation for a a change:
>
"V-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote
AmeriKKKa is the most hated nation on earth, and rightly so.
Even AmeriKKKa's "friends" are telling it to go fuck itself.
>
... true and it just happened while Bush went onto his epic May
2008 journey into the ME to ease the pain at the gas pump in
(=US-Zionists), first went to the Holey Land, the chief parasite
of the USA, kissed kike-ass there, ridiculed his possible
presidential successor, whilst they expanded their "settlements"
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O9W3UsdRyM> or here
<http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f>
>
With that "success" in hand, "Bush, the Brilliant", went to see his
old ass-venter buddies in Mecca, who promptly gave him the
finger & coyly reminded him that the 9/11-2001 team consisted
of 19 Saudis, not Iraqis and not Afghans, but Saudi's who were
sent by the Saudi royalty to deliver a message as a signal that
they didn't like Bushs' extreme politics of kike-ass-licking. Bush
of course kept on sucking off Neocon dicks upon which the
Saudis told the US military on 2/23-2003 to leave their land of
Sunni ass-venters... --- ... and so, after 5 more years of Bush's
unrelenting Jew-dick sucking ... Bush had the phantasm to get
back to the Saudis with a Yarmulke in his hand & he expected
to get relief from them... ahahahaha... AHAHAHAHA... whilst
at the same times the kikes in the US ran TV commercials
saying: "Thank you, US, for helping Israel in a time of need"...
ahahahaha.. You must hand it to the Jews... ahahahaha...
>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.renewable/msg/db6b040e3fc0dbcf
Basically, we replace the control regime that failed on 9/11 with
a newer more robust control regime to re-establish US global
commoditiy prices. We can do this first with energy. We'll do
it later with other products. Next with communications and food.
In this way we can re-establish a kinder gentler hegemony based
on a philosphy of growth rather than disparity.
>
--- So, what are you going to **DO** about it, Willie? ---
... besides you just talking about what is all very well & widely
acknowledged, very nice and commendable Willie, and .
... ... So Willie, first you'll have to convince the kikes in
the US to change their political behavior and then you
have to talk the ass-venters into giving up their established
control over oil resources and thirdly you must change
the misanthropic and vile ways of all the little green idiots...
long, long before you present your Mookie-policy-platform
>
... ahahaha... UNLESS YOU do come up with a recipe of
technological nature that is so irresistible that people will
literally steal it from you and spread it like wild fire.. and.
telling the kikes, the ass-venters and the green shits to go
and fuck themselves... ahahaha.. But I am afraid that your
current prescription is a run of the mill self-con, artificially
flavored, to play into the agendas of the kikes, the ass-venters
and the green shits... all 3 sets who have worked now for a
generation.. to bring us the current debacle that you try to
work against... just like it says in here under "The C&CH politics"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.renewable/msg/1643719d60c4a826
>
Now Willie, you sound very patriotic and that is commendable.
You are a good man, Willie, and I wish you good luck... to
remind you from time to time that NOTHING gets solved nor
resolved on the UseNet. This is entertainment!... And if you do
believe differently... cool!... because then you will become,
like VD Scotty, the butt of my jokes and a source for my laughs....
ahahaha... ahahaha... ahahahanson
>
Willie...@gmail.com
<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> <Willie.Moo...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> > Basically, we replace the control regime that failed on 9/11 with a
> > newer more robust control regime to re-establish US global
> > hegemony.
>
> Ahahahahahaha... AmeriKKKa is already being squashed like a bug.
No its not.
>
> AmeriKKKa is both incompetent and powerless. Uncle Sam can't even get the
> water running after 5 years of trying, in a nation like Iraq.
Why do you presume the USA wants this? Weren't we the ones that
knocked the water out in the first place?
> AmeriKKKa is the most hated nation on earth,
No we're not.
> and rightly so.
Utter rot.
> Even
> AmeriKKKa's "friends" are telling it to go fuck itself.
No they're not.
If you break the pills in half, and take them with some food - you
might not have these problems.
Willie...@gmail.com
Interesting that you think you know what those reasons are. Obviously
you are wrong in your analysis, but its fun to see it nevertheless.
hanson
<Willie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2024eebe-a09e-4b5e...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
ahahaha... AHAHAHAHAHA.. But Mookie, I have told you
that you are a very important person in your own mind.
>
::::: "Global oil demand has increased only by 1% last year,
::::: So why has the oil price risen by 200% in that same time"?..
>
There's a new twist in the game [2] that oil boys play...
So, here it is again for your fun and enjoyment:
>
> ----------------------------
>
ahahaha... AHAHAHA... Willie Babie!... I said in my post:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/2084d8f1e6393226
They have told you quite openly how cleverly they manipulate
the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then they killed the first
green (solar water heat) wave, by simply providing cheaper
and more reliable energy: oil.... all the way to another cycle
when during the Israeli precipitated oil embargo in ~1971/73
OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani (Saudi's oil minister)
appeared for weeks on all the TV news- and Talk-show
circuits in the US and openly declared that anybody who
thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil interests is
kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody is
becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
& the price at the pump and their profits go up.... ahahahaha...
>
---- Current C&CH events:
So, Bush went onto his epic 2008 journey into the ME to ease
the pain at the gas pump in the US... ahaha... Manipulated by
the Holey Land, the chief parasite of the USA, kissed kike-ass
there, ridiculed his possible presidential successor, whilst they
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O9W3UsdRyM> or here
<http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f>
>
With that "success" in hand, "Bush, the Brilliant", went to see his
old ass-venter buddies in Mecca, who promptly gave him the
finger & coyly reminded him that the 9/11-2001 team consisted
of 19 Saudis, not Iraqis and not Afghans, but Saudi's who were
sent by the Saudi royalty to deliver a message as a signal that
they didn't like Bushs' extreme politics of kike-ass-licking. Bush
of course kept on sucking off Neocon dicks upon which the
Saudis told the US military on 2/23-2003 to leave their land of
Sunni ass-venters... --- ... and so, after 5 more years of Bush's
unrelenting Jew-dick sucking ... Bush had the phantasm to get
back to the Saudis with a Yarmulke in his hand & he expected
to get relief from them... ahahahaha... AHAHAHAHA... whilst
at the same times the kikes in the US ran TV commercials
saying: "Thank you, US, for helping Israel in a time of need"...
ahahahaha.. You must hand it to the Jews... ahahahaha...
Now Willie, you being an emotional cyber nobody, I can & do
understand your frustration with the situation, especially when
your own president is as useless as you are in influencing or
changing and much less controlling the situation, because of
opposing forces within his own government.... ahahahaha....
>
So Willie, you sound very patriotic and that is commendable.
You are a good man, Willie, and I wish you good luck... to
remind you from time to time that NOTHING gets solved nor
resolved on the UseNet. This is entertainment!... And if you do
believe differently... cool!... because then you will become,
like VD Scotty, the butt of my jokes and a source for my laughs....
So, keep up with in your endeavors... and I wish you well.
hanson
>
>
<Willie...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7eabe722-3031-41d8...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> <Willie.Moo...@gmail.com> wrote
> > Basically, we replace the control regime that failed on 9/11
> > with a newer more robust control regime to re-establish
> > US global hegemony.
>
<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> Ahahahahahaha... AmeriKKKa is already being squashed like a bug.
>
No its not.
>
Scott Nudds aka VD-Scotty, "V-for-Vendicar"
<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:>
> AmeriKKKa is both incompetent and powerless. Uncle Sam
> can't even get the water running after 5 years of trying,
> in a nation like Iraq.
>
Why do you presume the USA wants this? Weren't we the
ones that knocked the water out in the first place?
>
<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> AmeriKKKa is the most hated nation on earth,
>
No we're not.
>
Scott Nudds aka VD-Scotty, "V-for-Vendicar"
<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> and rightly so.
>
<Willie.Moo...@gmail.com> wrote
Utter rot.
>
Scott Nudds aka VD-Scotty, "V-for-Vendicar"
<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> Even AmeriKKKa's "friends" are telling it to go fuck itself.
>
No they're not.
>
If you break the pills in half, and take them with some food
- you might not have these problems.
>
ahahaha... ahahahaha... Willie Baby, I tend to agree with
your last 2 lines above, but then, from VD-Scotty's POV
he may justifiably say that YOU, Mookie, should take your
own turnip out of the sand... To boot, do consider there is
that thing called "different strokes for/by different folks"...
Keep on selling though, Mookie... ahahaha... ahahahaha...
>
There is NO real oil shortage... See below in [2] why:
The issue above has to do with Bush's latest [1] (see below)
trip and it is not clear why you can't see the causes and
the remedies for the current "oil war" in which we just lost
another battle as seen in the price hike of today to $136/bbl.
... issues which are making the talk-show-circuits right now
and ask yourself:
::::: "if global oil demand has increased only by 1% last year,
::::: so why has the oil price DOUBLED in that same time"?....
>
... ... & then on top of all that there's the fucking kike senator
Lieberman who is weighing in and advocating that you, me
and the rest of the US voters are so stupid that we should
not be allowed to see and read the Allah-trallallah-shmallah
propaganda shit from the ass-venting Al Qaeda goons.
Asshole Lieberman advocates that the tripe from/by the
ass-venters should be removed from the US web (YouTube)
so that only pin heads in govt agencies and US officials
like him would be allowed to read what our enemies have
to say --- Fuck that Jew notion! --- Lieberman is as bad in/with
trying to curtail our freedoms as are the terrorists !"
== 229,000 Gogle hits for ---[ Lieberman Schmidt ]----. ==
>
[1] ---- Current C&CH events:
So, Bush went onto his epic 2008 journey into the ME to ease
the pain at the gas pump in the US... ahaha... Manipulated by
the Neocons (=US-Zionists), as he always is, Bush 1st went to
the Holey Land, the chief parasite of the USA, kissed kike-ass
there, ridiculed his possible presidential successor, whilst they
expanded their "settlements" in their classical way like here:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O9W3UsdRyM> or here
<http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e1842edc4f>
>
With that "success" in hand, "Bush, the Brilliant", went to see his
old ass-venter buddies in Mecca, who promptly gave him the
finger & coyly reminded him that the 9/11-2001 team consisted
of 19 Saudis, not Iraqis and not Afghans, but Saudi's who were
sent by the Saudi royalty to deliver a message as a signal that
they didn't like Bushs' extreme politics of kike-ass-licking. Bush
of course kept on sucking off Neocon dicks upon which the
Saudis told the US military on 2/23-2003 to leave their land of
Sunni ass-venters... --- ... and so, after 5 more years of Bush's
unrelenting Jew-dick sucking ... Bush had the phantasm to get
back to the Saudis with a Yarmulke in his hand & he expected
to get relief from them... ahahahaha... AHAHAHAHA... whilst
at the same times the kikes in the US ran TV commercials
saying: "Thank you, US, for helping Israel in a time of need"...
>
some things to say about the machinations of the JerUSAlem
cockroaches... (= US Zionist Jews & Neocons whose first
loyalty belongs to Israel instead of the US) ... and that such
information may resonate with the US goyim & wake them up
to some facts that the Jews try to bury desperately... ahahaha...
ahahaha & thus:
>
Lieberman has sucsssfully invoked Sid Snead's axiom that says:
::S:: "I am sorry to hear that Sen. Lieberman is a Jew. I enjoy the
::S:: clarity of his writing, but will now have to treat his opinions
::S:: as suspect, since, being a Jew, he believes that what is
::S:: good for Jews is more important than the truth."
>
ahahahaha.. You must hand it to the Jews... ahahahaha...
>
>
>
[2] ------The C&CH reserves -----------
Initially, "they" say the earth had an anaerobic envelope ~0 % O2.
At hand back then was only (relevant) CO2 and Carbonates.
So, Photosynth. etc. has liberated by now ~21% free O2 into the
air: That translates into ~1E+21 gr or ~1E+15 tons of available
O2. So, each 32 gr of O2 buried somewhere 12-14 gr = 1 C (max
CH4). Hence, there is 1E+21 * 12/32 = 5E+20 gr or ~ 5.E+14
tons of fossil C in store. So, at a current use/consumption/burning
of 3E+15 gr/yr of oil, the fossil stuff (coal, oil & CH4) will be
reoxydised in 5E+20 gr / 3E+15 gr/yr =~ 1.5E+05 years!
>
So, even at a ***1% *** availability of this resource estimate
the "we are running out of oil" "End of the oil age", or "Peak oil",
may have some gravitas only in 1500 years from now!... ahaha..
and no EARLIER than in 150'000 years from now, when the next
ice age has come and gone, and the green fuckers are not even
a foot note in history anymore, will all the fossil C be burned off.
>
------- The C&CH politics -------
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/2084d8f1e6393226
> They have told you quite openly how cleverly they manipulate
> the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then they killed the first
> green (solar water heat) wave, by simply providing cheaper
> and more reliable energy: oil.... all the way to another cycle
> when during the Israeli precipitated oil embargo in ~1971/73
> OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani (Saudi's oil minister)
> appeared for weeks on all the TV news- and Talk-show
> circuits in the US and openly declared that anybody who
> thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil interests is
> kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody is
> becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
> market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
> green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
> As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
> the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
> & the price at the pump and their profits go up.... ahahahaha...
I think they are going to be screwed this time around.
In S Europe solar PV is already price comparable with domestic mains.
Willie...@gmail.com
wrote:
> Willie.Moo...@gmail.com wrote:
> > That's bogus hanson - there are about 1,200 billion barrels of oil
> > left and within 5 to 15 years depending on which estimates you
> > believe, extracted oil will peak. By 2035 even with agressive gas-to-
> > liquids and coal-to-liquids we'll be struggling to keep up with
> > demand.
>
> > My approach which augments the coal-to-liquids process with hydrogen,
> > and displaces conventional fossil fuel in thermal generators with
> > hydrogen - allows continued expansion and a gradual conversion to
> > hydrogen generally over the next 40 years.
>
> > That's it.
>
> > Your stuff is bogus. Its not supported by the scientific evidence or
> > the experience of folks in the field looking for new sources of oil
> > and gas and coal.
>
> Why not go the whole way, and extract CO2 from the atmosphere?
>
> --
> Dirk
>
> http://www.transcendence.me.uk/- Transcendence UK
> Remote Viewing classes in London- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, you end up with an attachment that looks like a big jet engine
powered by 30 grams of hydrogen per minute that sucks air in at 110
kph and ejects dried air out, and produces 68 liters of water per
minute and a half liter of premium gasoline every minute.
So, we've looked at that. You've got to conentrate the CO2 from
ambient levels, and process a helluva lot of air and that takes
energy.
CO2 constitutes 387 parts per milion in air. So, 1 kg of air contains
387 milligrams of CO2. A cubic meter of air contains about 1.2 kg of
material and 488 milligrams of CO2.
To move all that air, and remove the CO2 takes energy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_capture_and_storage
It adds 25% to the energy costs of hydrogen minimum - our system isn't
that efficient.
We do it cryogenically. That way all you gotta do is compress the
air to about 160% ambient pressure, let it cool to ambient
temperature, and release the pressure to reduce temperature to the
required level to solidify the CO2.
You've got to remove a kilojoule per kilogram of air to reduce it by 1
K (or 1 C) So, to go from say 295 K (room temp) to 195 K (temp at
which CO2 solidifies) means you've got to remove 100 kilojoules of
energy per kilogram of air to separate out 387 milligrams of CO2 from
it. Use the cool air to cool incoming air to save energy.
Since you've got to handle lots of air, a continuous axial flow
compressor is well suited for this sort of application. You run it
with a DC motor driven by the solar panels if your panels produce
electricity, or use a hydrogen turbine driven compressor if your
panels produce hydrogen - which is what we did.
The advantage here is that you get lots of water from the air as well,
even in deserts. So, that's a valuable commodity in certain
environments. Even desert air has 10,000ppm of water. So, you
have 25 kg or water for every kg of CO2 produced even in the
desert.
The key to doing all this efficiently is to reheat the cool air with
the warm air coming in, that way recycling the energy and only having
to make up the enthalpies involved in phase changes as a first order
energy use.
If you don't need the water in the desert, you can reheat it and let
that vapor go to reduce energy use.
You use the Sabatier reaction to convert the CO2 to CH4
2 H2O + electricity ---> 2 H2 + O2
CO2 + 2 H2 ---> CH4 + 2 H2O
The water gets recycled, so you don't need to extract more from the
air - though you do need oxygen, to partially oxidize the methane to
form methanol, then dehydrate the methanol to form DME, Butane, and
finally iso-octane.
A combined cycle system that reacted CO2 and hydrogen at high pressure
- and drove the compressor with the waste heat from the Sabatier
reactor - would be interesting.
Our systems took about 1 kWh per kg of CO2 processed in this way -
which meant that 11 kg of CO2 require 11 kWh - when added to the 55
kWh needed to produce a kg of hydrogen brought the total to 66 kWh to
produce 2 kg of methane, which results in 1.7 kg of iso-octane.
That is, it takes 40 kWh of solar electricity from our system - and
considerable added complexity to produce octane from air and
sunlight. This rises to 80 kWh if you want 161 kg of water in
addition to the 1 kg of iso-octane.
80 kWh solar energy
14,000 cubic meters air
161 liters water
1.27 liters premium gasoline
So, in 1 hour of operation a 3,440 sq meter system (8 ft x 4,400 ft
string) produces 1,892 kWh of energy equivalent - which translates to
1,892 kWh of solar energy captured
331,100 cubic meters of air
3,807 liters of water
30 liters premium gasoline
At $0.60 per kilo-liter for the water is worth $2.28 per hour of peak
sunlight
At $0.60 per liter for the gasoline its worth $18.00 per hour of peak
sunlight
A little over $20 per hour of peak sunlight.
A 2 meter diameter axial flow compressor would have to draw air in at
105 kph to maintain production.
Producing straight hydrogen, without the complexity and cost of the
hydrogen turbine driven carbon capture system - yeilds 34.4 kg of
hydrogen per hour. At $2 per kg (by reacting it with coal, etc.) you
get $68.80 per hour
We didn't figure out how much it would cost to do in quantity.
But 4 hours of sunlight in the desert per day, produces 16,000 liters
of fresh water per day and 120 liters of premium gasoline per day.
This is enough for 5 families in the desert (both water and gasoline)
- the panels are the cheapest part of this. The most expensive and
maintenance intensive part is the jet engine looking big ass carbon
capture unit.
One can speculate about future developments...
Given that power to weight ratios of devices are better the smaller
they are (surface area goes as the square of dimension and weight goes
as the cube of dimension) tinier solar powered devices - if they can
be done cheaply hae much to recommend.
So, a highly speculative concept includes armies of intelligent UAV
harvesting the sky using solar power.
Conceptually the way this would work - with very low cost MEMs devices
- likely made using some sort of self replicating folding membrane
technology - (we're about 15 years away from that) - we'd have tiny
pairs of counter-rotating props about the size of a large flying
insect. Somewhat smaller than this
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/rc-vtol/4221678142
A solar powered insect that would process the air required and fly
freely while accumulating air and water. Billions of free flying
units would fly above a city, and at night would deposit water and
petrol in subscriber tanks - while resting in hives overnight - to
repeat the performance the next day.
Farms could have delivered water fuel and fertilizer.
Willie...@gmail.com
Regenerative fuel cells are already being built into electric aircraft
that are solar powered
https://www.llnl.gov/str/Mitlit.html
Yes, the solutions I propose are the highest best use for hydrogen
today. Hydrogen in the future will have other uses different than
today's.
Robert J. Kolker
Plant trees. The sun moves the air.
The best way of extracting CO2 from the atmosphere is living plants.
Meanwhile the Brazilians are destroying the Amazon Rain Forest.
Bob Kolker
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
I was looking for a way to get CO2 from air - there's a thread on
sci.chem - and came to the conclusion I couldn't do it in a cost
effective manner given the space and weight constraints. Same reasoning
as yours.
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
hanson
>
hanson injects:
Is it cheaper to change the lifestyle of some 4 billion people
(EU, US, IN, CH etc) by preaching.... or to force a change
of the behavior in a pitiful fraction of 0.6% of that 4 billion,
in some 25 million Iraqis? ...
>
hanson wrote earlier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.environment/msg/2084d8f1e6393226
They have told you quite openly how cleverly they manipulate
the fuel market ever since 1917. Back then they killed the first
green (solar water heat) wave, by simply providing cheaper
and more reliable energy: oil.... all the way to another cycle
when during the Israeli precipitated oil embargo in ~1971/73
OPEC's Sheik Ahmad Zaki al-Yamani (Saudi's oil minister)
appeared for weeks on all the TV news- and Talk-show
circuits in the US and openly declared that anybody who
thinks that they'll be able to threaten the oil interests is
kidding himself, ....because the moment anybody is
becoming a threat to the oil boys they simply do flood the
market with cheap oil and bankrupt the investors of/in/with
green "renewable & sustainable" energy gismos.
As soon as the "alternative energy" competition is killed off
the oil boys announce that Peak Oil is just around the corner
& the price at the pump and their profits go up.... ahahahaha...
>
I think they are going to be screwed this time around. In S Europe solar
PV is already price comparable with domestic mains.
>
hanson wrote:
<http://groups.google.com/group/sci.energy/msg/bb4dbe2a7fac0a34>
.... ahahaha... I truly hope that your remote viewing will
turn out to be correct AFA PV etc vs. oil is concerned.
But consider a few things, like
>
::: "Global oil demand has increased only by 1% last year,
::: So why has the oil price risen by 200% in that same time"?...
>
and control easily . --- Look, the oil situation is utterly political:
>
(1) in the 1970's the Arabs turned off the oil tap to protest
and to send a message to the US (and EU) to change, in their
view, the pathological foreign policy of the West towards them,
the Arabs, in favor of Israel, the chief parasite of the USA.
>
(2) in 2001's the Arabs sent another message with the same
intent on 9/11.....
>
(3) from 2007 on the Arabs sent yet a message once more.
But instead of turning off the oil tap fully, they simply said:
"Let the dumb fucking goyim PAY US, THE ARABS, for their
love of and their dependency on the Jews... We'll see how
much and how long the gyoim will carry that Jewish yoke &
burden.. while we rake in the dough"... ahaha... AHAHA...
>
That's how the situation apparently is viewed by the Arabs
and realized by a few goyim in the street who have not bought
into the Zionist propaganda shit of endless KZ TV movies about
the Holocaust. --- The folks in charge of affairs, they view things
differently which one can see when one goes back to WWII
where one can detect the origins of the **current** oil game.
>
Said... Cordell Hull, U.S. Secretary of State, August 1943:
"Likewise, from a more directly selfish point of view, it is to
our interest that no great power be established on the Persian
Gulf opposite the important American petroleum development
in Saudi Arabia. Therefore, the United States should adopt a
policy of positive action in Iran."
>
.... To do that trick and to get to that goal the Amis "stole" the
BP assets in Iran from the Brits, who were folding their global
empire anyway and in the process gave up Palestine in 1947.
>
To fill this vacuum the US saw a chance to USE the Jews, with
their fetish for Israel, to establish there a 2nd beach head &
front in the ME to advance US influence & US interests.
>
But that regional game there with quarreling Jews and Arabs
did not quite work so well, so the US cultivated the Palevi Shah
Dynasty in Iran in the 1950's which lead to the debacle we are
in today... where there are: Ass-venters vs Kikes vs Bible-
beaters ... or Bible beaters vs Ass-venters vs Kikes ... or
Kikes vs Bible beaters vs Ass-venters... or any other combo
you can think of... ahahahaha...
>
That game will change abruptly if and when Iraq is pacified
(with Mc Cain's vision of a 100 year's of US presence there)
and puts the US again in control over that oil... at which time,
if successful, the US will shed the preferential treatment for
Israel --- (& the $3-7 Billion aid each year for the last 60 years
extorted off the tables from poor American families) ---- since
that parasite will no longer serve the national interests of the US.
ahahaha...
>
Meanwhile, don't forget that the peasantry always is forced to
pays for the tickets, with their money and their blood, for all
these "God & Patriot" games. But there is also easy and
plenty of money to made, even if you only can start off with
a few hundred dollars of your savings to invest.
------- The oil is $$ green, man ---------
>
With all the yearnings by the Greenies for a lifestyle that is not
dependant on oil ask yourself what is the most economocal
way to achieve that?
>
Is it cheaper to change the lifestyle of some 4 billion people
(EU, US, IN, CH etc) .... or to force a change in the behavior
in only 25 million Iraqis? ... 25 million is 0.6% of the 4 billion
peopel affected. -- That's how the big boys in the oil biz view
the world. --- Leverage man, leverage... ahahaha....
But never forget that every action that is taken in the real world
has unintended consequences... by courtesy of Uncle Murphy.
.... ahahahaha... ahahahanson
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
> "Dirk Bruere at NeoPax" <dirk....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:69o5ujF...@mid.individual.net...
> hanson injects:
> Is it cheaper to change the lifestyle of some 4 billion people
> (EU, US, IN, CH etc) by preaching.... or to force a change
> of the behavior in a pitiful fraction of 0.6% of that 4 billion,
> in some 25 million Iraqis? ...
It's going to be a question of money v money.
The estimated market for domestic PV running matching mains electricity
costs is around 1500GW for the OECD nations by 2010.
--
Dirk
Dan Bloomquist
<snip>
You get points for putting V and Billie in their place. But you will
have to cite the source of all this excess production that you elude to.
There is cake, and there is eating it. If you have both, do point it out.
hanson
"Dan Bloomquist" <publ...@lakeweb.com> wrote in message
news:uiK_j.1934$9b1....@fe127.usenetserver.com...
>
hanson wrote:
< http://groups.google.com/group/sci.energy/msg/8b67fce923b56a19 >
< http://groups.google.com/group/sci.energy/msg/0aa53c5ef7317f6b >
< http://groups.google.com/group/sci.energy/msg/bb4dbe2a7fac0a34 >
<snip>
>
"Dan Bloomquist" <publ...@lakeweb.com> wrote
.... ahahahaha... But Dan, I am here just for fun and not to put
anybody "in their place"... ... I must admit though that I have
extraordinary fun with winding up fanatics who honestly believe
that they are making global policy and influence the behavior,
environmental, political or religious, of the world's population,
with their tripe in their own posts here on the Usenet... ahahaha.
Thanks for the kind words though, Dan.
ahahaha... ahahahanson
V-for-Vendicar
>> To move all that air, and remove the CO2 takes energy.
"Robert J. Kolker" <bobk...@comcast.net> wrote
> Plant trees. The sun moves the air.
>
> The best way of extracting CO2 from the atmosphere is living plants.
What. What. What. What. What??????
That's what Al Gore is doing. And as all KKKonsrevatives will tell you.
Gore is PURE EVIL,
V for Vendicar
> Ahahahahahaha... AmeriKKKa is already being squashed like a bug.
<Willie...@gmail.com>
> No its not.
Oil 138 a barrel and rising. And AmeriKKKans are already shooting each
other at gas stations.
Ahahahahahahahahahah...
> AmeriKKKa is both incompetent and powerless. Uncle Sam can't even get the
> water running after 5 years of trying, in a nation like Iraq.
> Why do you presume the USA wants this? Weren't we the ones that
> knocked the water out in the first place?
Well the opposite concern is even more destructive to AmeriKKKan
interests. The opposite being that AmeriKKKa want's to keep Iraqi's
drinking polluted water.
Is that your claim? Shit Sucker?
> AmeriKKKa is the most hated nation on earth,
<Willie...@gmail.com>
> No we're not.
Truly AmeriKKKa is a land of self delusion.
> Even
> AmeriKKKa's "friends" are telling it to go fuck itself.
<Willie...@gmail.com>
> No they're not.
Which is why Saudi Arabia just told Bush to go fuck himself when he
arrived on his knees begging for a higher oil production level from the OPEC
nations.
Go fuck yourself Mookie.