希腊的民主 西方的民主 支那的民主

[wanghx]

g: 两位都挺弱智。
一个搞不懂人类社会的进化就是个人自由逐步得到保障、专制（不论是以什么名义
进行的专制）被逐步推翻的过程。
另一个强行要把中国的仁义礼智信和西方的社会制度的元素对应。法的精神不是
仁，而是正义，或者说对个人权利的捍卫。

lihlii: 你说说我的意思是什么。“西方的社会制度”？凭什么说是西方的？

g:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lihlii View Post
你说说我的意思是什么。

Who knows what you mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lihlii View Post
“西方的社会制度”？凭什么说是西方的？

Democracy and rule of law were only invented in the west. That's why I
say they are western. So are computers. It would be as stupid to try to
map binary numbers used in computers to the Chinese theory of Metal,
Wood, Water, Fire and Soil, as what you are doing with Ren, Yi, Li, Zhi,
and Xin.

Dictatorship and repression were invented in both the west and the east
independently of each other. So they are both western and eastern.

g: Who knows what you mean?

lihlii: 你是如何评论你所不知道的东西的呢？ :)

g:
Democracy and rule of law were only invented in the west. That's why I
say they are western. So are computers. It would be as stupid to try to
map binary numbers used in computers to the Chinese theory of Metal,
Wood, Water, Fire and Soil, as what you are doing with Ren, Yi, Li, Zhi,
and Xin.

lihlii:
1. The European democracy (rule of the majority) was invented not in the
"west", but in Greece. But later Greece turned into despotic state.

2. Modern democracy (liberal constitutional democracy) was invented in
the west (the netherlands and britain).

3. Computers were invented by the European and American, but why don't
you call it western computer? :)

4. There are enough people-based political theories in Chinese classics,
which can be easily accepted by Chinese people and migrate into even
better liberal democratic system of theory. Why should not Chinese make
their own liberal theory? Why should you always limit democratic theory
in "western" or the classical boundary? The "western" people developed
the Greek democracy and formed the modern liberal democracy. It was not
there before people tried to study and modify the original theories.

5. Please tell me how can you judge a thing as stupid before you
understand what it means? :)

6. 你认为日本是西方还是东方呢？日本的制度是西方的制度还是东方的制度呢？:)

7. 法的精神和立法的精神是两回事。正义是司法的精神。法是对利权的声张确
立，而不是对利权的保障。

有一句谚语说，“无救济则无利权 A right without remedy is not right”。司法
救济是对利权的保障，是对侵犯利权的纠正和阻止，而立法本身不包括这些。

立法的要点在于法的自由契约基础，以及对更高级法的顺从。最高级的法是自然
法，是构建人类社会关系的最高纲领。

自然法是不成文的，但可以总结出最基础的成文条款作为表述的工具。比如欧洲自
由主义革命时期，“天赋人权”“人人平等”，成为对自然法的基础条款的表述。

我认为，可以基于某些基础自然法成文条款，建立严密的自由主义法学和政治学的
公理体系。而这些基础自然法，如果选择对立的条款，则构成完全不同的功力体
系；如果选择相容的，相互可以推演的等价表述，则可以构成相同的公理体系。

无论是如欧洲的自由主义革命理论家，从传统宗教中寻求自然法资源，还是如支那
自由主义改革家从传统儒学中寻求自然法资源，都是非常必要的社会沿革途径。一
个社会的文化是不可能断裂而获得进步的。

这就是我寻求在儒家思想中发展自由主义儒学理论的动因。

8. 我所欣赏的五色旗，作为对儒学自由主义的一种符号阐释。你说可笑，那么，
法兰西人用蓝白红代表自由平等博爱，是否可笑呢？:) 韩国的旗帜上有太极八卦
之两仪生四相，把“中间太极的圆代表人民”[5]是否可笑呢？这只是一种信仰图腾
而已。信仰的图腾，都需要给予一些符号化的解释。五色旗的三原色（红白蓝）和
黑白分明，五彩可调和成无穷色彩，正是共和理念的体现。这既源自支那传统，又
赋予其新的含义，可笑在何处？

至于五色的解释，自由主义给你自由的解释空间。:) 不过我主张的解释是五常五
义和五权[6]。其他的历史解释见 [7]。

红 仁 爱心同情 恶律贼仁 立法定权 仁爱
黄 礼 惜权如金 非礼勿用 行政从宪 自由
蓝 义 天下平等 不义必纠 司法公正 平等
白 信 清正廉洁 失信必察 监察入微 和平
黑 智 黔黎国本 无欺民智 舆论自由 民主

至于为何立法和仁对应，乃是立法之目的必须遵从自然法之原则，这是限定了立法
权的界限。立法权不是至高无上的，自然法才是至高无上的。

一切违反仁爱原则的法，都是非法之法。从这一点足以推理出死刑非法。当然具体
的推论过程会更复杂，但对于一个民族精神的信仰而言，要简单鲜明，方能为最大
多数的民众所理解。

红色是血液的颜色，温情的颜色。血冷则无情，人亡则无爱。有爱心的人，乃是利
权的主体。自由利权不仅仅是冰冷的属权，也必须包括仁爱的基础。在这个基础
上，就可以理解为何威尼斯商人 Shylock 按照契约要一磅肉的利权主张，是合乎
死的契约，但是不合乎自然法的仁爱原则，因而契约本身是非法的。

黄色是金色的近似色。礼是社会秩序，在自由主义社会，这就是宪政秩序。公权行
政必须遵从宪政的礼制，不得侵犯公民的自由。乃以礼和行政权并提。

司法的精神是公平正义。支那传统文化有青天在上，“天道”“天鉴”思想，以天喻公
正古已有之，故义与司法权并提。

白色清洁不染，喻对公权的监察权。滥用公权，乃是违反民众委托授权之契约，乃
失信于民。故信与监察权并提。监察权是对公权机关的检调起诉权。因普通刑检调
机关本身属于行政权的一部分，不可能自证其罪，故需要特别的独立权力机构来代
民众行使对行政权力机构的检调诉讼之权。

黑色寓意民众，同时也是书写的墨色。舆论权是唯一存于民间的政治权力，政府不
得拥有舆论机构。言论自由是寻求真理的基础，民智开蒙是民主的基础和前提条
件，故智与舆论权并提。

比较法兰西的立国精神中，自由、平等、博爱三者，五色中以三原色红、黄、蓝表
达仁爱、自由、平等，另外增加和平和民主两种精神。

[1] 反儒和复兴儒学
http://groups.google.com/group/lihlii/browse_thread/thread/233f6c3f97b1a4f6
[2] 用专制主义对待专制主义，用自由主义对待自由主义
http://groups.google.com/group/lihlii/browse_thread/thread/10d45fbb0568094d
[3] 儒释传统是和思想言论自由兼容的
http://groups.google.com/group/lihlii/browse_thread/thread/f2676296c0a55314
[4] 人之为人
http://groups.google.com/group/lihlii/browse_thread/thread/bf561b24c4cfc1fc
[5] 韩国国旗是太极八卦吗?有什么含义?
http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/4775038.html
以太极为中心，四角的卦分别象征阴阳互相调和，乾卦代表天空，坤卦代表大地，
坎卦是月亮和水，离卦为太阳和火，各个卦还象征着正义、富饶、生命力和智慧。
据韩国的解释，国旗底色为白色，象征韩国人民的纯洁和对和平的热爱。而整个国
旗则代表韩国人民永远与宇宙协调发展的理想。

1948年，韩国政府成立时，决定将太极旗作为韩国国旗，并于1949年颁布了制作标
准：太极旗横竖比例为3比2；白底代表神圣的国土；太极图象征宇宙天地浑成以及
单一民族构成的国家。中间太极的圆代表人民；太极的两仪为上红下蓝，分别代表
阴阳。

[6] 经济危机 权力制衡 五权宪法
http://groups.google.com/group/lihlii/browse_thread/thread/37697b0500529574
[7] 五色 五常 五权http:
//groups.google.com/group/lihlii/browse_thread/thread/8f7433c52684e303

[wanghx]

09-12-2008, 10:51 AM ygao

Quote: Originally Posted by lihlii 1. The European democracy (rule of the majority) was invented not in the "west", but in Greece. But later Greece turned into a despotic state for a long time. It was because of the Byzantium Empire. An empire is inherently against democracy and innovation. For the same reason, the hope of democracy was extinguished in China since Qin united China in 221 BC. Western Europe was saved from this fate due to the collapse of the Roman Empire. Quote: Originally Posted by lihlii 2. Modern democracy (liberal constitutional democracy) was invented in the west (the netherlands and britain), but why don't you call it dutch democracy or british democracy but "western" democracy? If it's because the western countries accepted such theory, then why can't Chinese accept such theory and develop Chinese democracy? Due to the cultural similarity between many western countries, British and Dutch democracy could be much more easily accepted. The Chinese culture now is already anti-democractic. So are the Greek and Italian cultures now. To embrace freedom and real democracy, it is necessary for those countries to get rid of a great part of their culture. Quote: Originally Posted by lihlii 3. Computers were invented by the European and American, but why don't you call them western computers? Because there is no such a thing as eastern computers. Also, unlike the case of democracy, there are no such stupid people trying to invent eastern computers. If such people did exist, I would indeed call computers as western computers. Quote: Originally Posted by lihlii

4. There are enough people-based political theories in Chinese classics, which can be easily accepted by Chinese people and migrate into even better liberal democratic system of theory. Why should not Chinese make their own liberal theory? Why should you always limit democratic theory in "western" or the classical boundary? The "western" people developed the Greek democracy and formed the modern liberal democracy. It was not there before people tried to study and modify the original theories.

Those were never the mainstream. Another question for your quesion: why should Chinese not invent their own computers based on there YinYangWuXing theory? Even if they could, it would be stupid because it's simply so inefficient. If I think something good, I would just take it and maybe later try to improve it instead of trying to re-invent it. Quote: Originally Posted by lihlii 6. 你认为日本是西方还是东方呢？日本的制度是西方的制度还是东方的制度呢？ The Japanese were and are much cleverer than the Chinese, because they decided to take the western system instead of trying what you are now doing. Now Japan is a western country.

Today, 09:29 AM ygao

Quote: Originally Posted by lihlii No. Even in ancient Greece, they had democracy, then 僭主政治，then 专制帝制。 They had all these even after the democracy collapsed. I don't know what your point is. Yes, in ancient Greece, they had almost all possible forms of governance. So what? Quote: Originally Posted by lihlii I don't think the Japanese threw their culture away. In fact, there are even more Chinese culture preserved in Japan and S. Korea than in the despotic mainland China! There are more Chinese traditional culture preserved in Taiwan than in mainland China, yet Taiwan can be more liberal a society than China. Can you explain these? The Japanese elite wanted a complete westernization. They even banned sumo and promoted interracial marriages with Europeans to improve their genes. The fact is, if you want a complete westernization, you get finally 50% westernized and this was the case in Japan. The Japanese reformers did not want to preserve any Chinese or Japanese culture. But not surprisingly, they did not succeed completely in this. If their goal had been to have a 50% westernization plus 50% traditional culture, they would have never achieved what they have achieved now. Japan has still many drawbacks because of the remaining elements of the Asian culture. Just name a few examples: a highly hierarchical society, self sensorship of the media, less individual freedom due to social pressure, and much less degree of emancipation of women. Comparing to any other Asian countries, Japan is the most successful, because it persued a complete westernization although it was not completed in reality. But comparing to real western countries - I am not including Italy or Greece because they are culturally not really western any more - Japan is still backward. Quote: Originally Posted by lihlii When liberal democracy emerged in western Europe, it's not "mainstream" either. The mainstream political system of western Europe was then Feudalism and despotism. Yet, the non-mainstream thoughts could grow to be mainstream. Feudalism provides perfect soil for the seed of democracy. I don't think I need to explain more on this. In fact, Japan was so much more privileged comparing to China because it was still in feudalism by the end of the 19th century. Feudalism in China ended too early. After that, a united empire of 2000 years made the Chinese culture no more compatible with individual freedom or democracy. The real eneny to democracy is not feudalism or even depotism, but a united empire and a culture or mentality that promotes it.

Today, 02:06 PM lihlii

Quote: Originally Posted by ygao I don't know what your point is. Yes, in ancient Greece, they had almost all possible forms of governance. So what? So how to explain this with your view of "culture"? Is ancient Greek culture pro-democracy or despotism? Quote: Originally Posted by ygao The Japanese elite wanted a complete westernization. They even banned sumo and promoted interracial marriages with Europeans to improve their genes. These are ridiculous attempts. Quote: Originally Posted by ygao The fact is, if you want a complete westernization, you get finally 50% westernized and this was the case in Japan. The Japanese reformers did not want to preserve any Chinese or Japanese culture. But not surprisingly, they did not succeed completely in this. If their goal had been to have a 50% westernization plus 50% traditional culture, they would have never achieved what they have achieved now. They learned very well the "western" military states, following Germany. Then they became a military state. Quote: Originally Posted by ygao Japan has still many drawbacks because of the remaining elements of the Asian culture. Just name a few examples: a highly hierarchical society, self sensorship of the media, less individual freedom due to social pressure, and much less degree of emancipation of women. It's not "asian" culture, but there are also many of these in Europe. Even in western Europe, there are countries like Germany which is comparatively hierarchical, self-censored media, less freedom, etc. In most liberal western countries, there are still many remnants of conservative political groups who support things that you mentioned. Take Netherlands as an example, they have SGP, Reformed Political Party. Quote: Originally Posted by ygao Feudalism provides perfect soil for the seed of democracy. I don't think I need to explain more on this. In fact, Japan was so much more privileged comparing to China because it was still in feudalism by the end of the 19th century. Feudalism in China ended too early. After that, a united empire of 2000 years made the Chinese culture no more compatible with individual freedom or democracy. That's a possible explanation, but not for sure. If you abandon the history determinism 历史决定论, then you might have another different view on this, instead of trying to explain every historical development as a must or definite result. If you haven't read Karl Popper's "Poverty Of Historic Determinism", I highly suggest you do read it. In my view, I think maybe the choice of democracy or dictatorship, liberalism or despotism is in fact by chance rather than destined. Because there are so many factors that might effect the result, since the society is a highly non-linear system. Democratic states might be fortunate, but it may well collapse if people don't take care of it. __________________ 五常新民 五权宪政 五色自由

Today, 02:23 PM lihlii

Quote: Originally Posted by ygao Another question for your quesion: why should Chinese not invent their own computers based on there YinYangWuXing theory? Chinese should also try to invent new computers different from the von Neuman system currently people are using. Chinese should contribute to the human knowledge actively. Whether it should be based on Yinyang Wuxing or something else, it's not a key point. All those that Chinese created, it will be Chinese contribution and China Made. My effort of contribution to the politics study, is the review and correction of 三权分立 seperation of three powers, review and correction of 五权宪法 five power constitution, etc. The best things in Chinese tradition must be restored, thus we can build a new culture upon the good things. Whether it's "western" or "eastern" is not the point. Abandon Chinese traditional culture will not bring about liberty, but only more fierce despot, and give way to introduce the worst elements of "western" thoughts.