alt.arts.poetry.comments - 23 new messages in 8 topics - digest

[alt.arts.poetry.comments group]

alt.arts.poetry.comments
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments?hl=en

alt.arts.poe...@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Wild West Show at Del Ranch - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/5698cc151f1fcfcc?hl=en
* Some WalkaboutsVerse, etc. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/9761691a391dd328?hl=en
* Lamb - 9 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/325d0963189f5b53?hl=en
* Kevin Prufer, acclaimed poet, at Carson McCullers Center Friday - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/d21de70d5eafd9eb?hl=en
* All These Years (Poem) - 4 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/a3399ce3060541f4?hl=en
* MySpace in China - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/705df262315655cd?hl=en
* And the Most High has looked upon his times, - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/2164047079c3c9ca?hl=en
* LUNCH - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/fec55548ff613a41?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wild West Show at Del Ranch
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/5698cc151f1fcfcc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 12:04 am
From: Will Dockery


Okay, I know this link works, photos of the Wild West Show at Del
Ranch:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewPicture&friendID=39701667&albumId=2216872

Del Ranch open mic Sundays
> Hosted by Henry Conley
> Type: Music/Arts - Jam Session
> Network: Global
> Start Time: Sunday, November 15, 2009 at 8:05pm
> End Time: Monday, November 16, 2009 at 12:05am
> Location: Del Ranch Restaurant & Lounge
> Street: 4920 Lee Road 430
>
> Description Open mic at Del Ranch every Sunday, hosted by the
> illustrious Henry Conley... come and perform or just to listen. Food &
> drinks available.
>
> --
> "Red Lipped Stranger" & other stories:http://www.myspace.com/willdockery






==============================================================================
TOPIC: Some WalkaboutsVerse, etc.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/9761691a391dd328?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 3:20 am
From: walkaboutsverse


Poem 37 of 230: RODEO DRIVE

On visiting Los Angeles,
I thought I’d walk Rodeo Drive.
I’d passed a few up-market shops
When an hombre said, “Take one please.”

‘Twas info. on exploitation,
Which I read that night in my room.
It mentioned of the unfair gap -
Sweatshop-wages to profit-on.

I left him to visit the john,
Which was all clad in marble stone.
Then I walked past more fortune gowns
To lunch: four bucks - fair profit-on.

From http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)
Or http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
(C) David Franks 2003


On Nov 19, 10:51 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Poem 36 of 230: WALKABOUT MEXICO
>
> In late December,
>     1996,
> I can remember
>     Being in a fix -
> For time and pesos -
>     And, thus, unable
> To see Mexico’s
>     Sights commendable.
>
> So, in Tijuana,
>     I enjoyed the show
> At a miniature
>     Rep. of Mexico.
>
> Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> (C) David Franks 2003
>
> On Nov 18, 10:30 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Despite such beautiful scenery, if I was to visit Ireland these days,
> > I'd be more keen on a folk-club than a golf-club...
>
> > Poem 12 of 230: GOLF AT KILLARNEY
>
> > At Killarney Golf and Fishing Club,
> >     There's two great courses to be found;
> > Built on Ireland's fine Ring of Kerry,
> >     Both are really worth a round.
>
> > From the local social Youth Hostel,
> >     I hitched (doing as Irish do);
> > Then paid to play both the courses,
> >     But missed five holes - Hostel curfew.
>
> > The fairways were lush and nicely groomed,
> >     And the course views the best I've seen;
> > With walks beside the lakes and mountains,
> >     I'm proud to say to there I've been.
>
> > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > (C) David Franks 2003
> > On Nov 17, 9:34 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > In North East England...
>
> > > Poem 197 of 230: HISTORIC HEXHAM – AUTUMN 2002
>
> > > All hay was made,
> > >     And the sun stayed,
> > > The autumn day
> > >     I made my way,
> > > Via Heddon,
> > >     To old Hexham,
> > > Where I did see:
> > >     The fine abbey,
> > > The ex-gaol
> > >     By the moot-hall,
> > > Plus, holding sports
> > >     Of varied sorts,
> > > The Tynedale
> > >     And the Seal.
>
> > > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > > (C) David Franks 2003
>
> > > On Nov 16, 10:09 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > This was in 1988...
>
> > > > Poem cum song 10 of 230: LAND’S END TO JOHN O’ GROATS
>
> > > > (TUNE:
>
> > > > D G A A B B A A
> > > > D A B B A A G G
> > > > D B B B A A G G
> > > > D A B A B A G G)
>
> > > > At the bold age of twenty-one
> > > >     (Via Hong Kong, China, Macau),
> > > > I flew from Sydney to London -
> > > >     Land’s End to John o’ Groats my vow.
>
> > > > I took a train out of London,
> > > >     Found a highway and thumbed a ride;
> > > > I headed down toward Brighton,
> > > >     Then hitch-hiked roads the coast beside.
>
> > > > On the face of my shoulder bag,
> > > > A sketched map of Aus. was my tag;
> > > > For said a Scot who’d hitched Europe:
> > > > “Some emblem may well boost your hope.”
>
> > > > And drivers throughout the island,
> > > > Over a two month riding span,
> > > > Were the kindest folks I have met -
> > > > I swear not once did I get wet!
>
> > > > I stopped overnight in Portsmouth,
> > > >     And one or two nights in Torquay;
> > > > Then headed along to Plymouth -
> > > >     Still travelling beside the sea.
>
> > > > After viewing rugged Land’s End,
> > > >     I began the long journey north -
> > > > North-east, rather, before a bend,
> > > >     Somewhere in a bit from Bournemouth.
>
> > > > On the way, I saw relatives,
> > > > Whom after leaving I did miss -
> > > > Their homes’ cosy atmosphere,
> > > > And their local pubs’ good cheer.
>
> > > > And the hitched-lifts came from many:
> > > > An off-work Bobbie, a truckie,
> > > > As well as on-duty soldiers -
> > > > Thanks, and I’ve not said where each was!
>
> > > > I headed west through South Wales,
> > > >     And viewed Cardiff Arms from afar -
> > > > I was hitching with local males,
> > > >     And they showed me from in the car.
>
> > > > I stayed a while at Swansea -
> > > >     Saw the local footballers play;
> > > > Then hitched north through Llandovery -
> > > >     Beautiful farmland, I must say.
>
> > > > I slept mostly in B. & B’s,
> > > > Where the full breakfasts sure did please;
> > > > But also stopped in Youth Hostels,
> > > > Where it’s the comradeship that tells.
>
> > > > My favourite sites were Torquay,
> > > > Old St. Andrews (noted shortly),
> > > > The road Glasgow-to-Inverness,
> > > > The Lakes, plus London’s spots, no less.
>
> > > > From Colwyn Bay, I headed east
> > > >     To Manchester, my place of birth;
> > > > Then on the Lakes my eyes did feast,
> > > >     Before I passed by Solway Firth.
>
> > > > Onto Edinburgh, Glasgow,
> > > >     St. Andrews, before Inverness;
> > > > Then waves from locals were the go -
> > > >     Warm folks round John o’ Groats, I’d guess.
>
> > > > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > > > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > > > (C) David Franks 2003
>
> > > > On Nov 15, 10:18 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > After a stormy Saturday here in England, it's much calmer in Newcastle
> > > > > upon Tyne today...
>
> > > > > Poem 179 of 230: A GLASSY TYNE - AUTUMN 2001
>
> > > > > Near glassy-classical new Law Courts,
> > > > >     From the snazzy Millennium Footbridge,
> > > > > Reflecting fine bridges of other sorts -
> > > > >     A glassy Tyne's snazzy sunset image.
>
> > > > > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > > > > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > > > > (C) David Franks 2003
>
> > > > > On Nov 14, 12:13 pm, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Hardly seaside weather today in England, but...
>
> > > > > > Poem 120 of 230:  A GOOD SEASIDE DAY - AUTUMN 2000
>
> > > > > > Via the art gallery,
> > > > > >     Blackpool how it used to be;
> > > > > > Via a famous tower,
> > > > > >     The Blackpool of the hour.
> > > > > > Via a maritime Mount,
> > > > > >     Fleetwood with its channel out.
> > > > > > And, via a coastline tram,
> > > > > >     The autumn-night lit-art jam.
>
> > > > > > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > > > > > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > > > > > (C) David Franks 2003
>
> > > > > > On Nov 13, 10:10 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > It's called Mumbai now, of course, but not when I was there...
>
> > > > > > > Poem 21 of 230: BOMBAY PORTER
>
> > > > > > > Awaiting a train in Bombay,
> > > > > > >     I was shocked into dismay;
> > > > > > > For a well-dressed man, built strongly,
> > > > > > >     Was walking, his hands set free,
> > > > > > > Ahead of a bony porter -
> > > > > > >     Heavy case on head, no quarter.
>
> > > > > > > Shortly later, I watched again
> > > > > > >     As out from the rich-man’s train
> > > > > > > Came the scrawny struggling porter -
> > > > > > >     His thin back now much tauter;
> > > > > > > For he writhed as he stretched his loins -
> > > > > > >     After a quick count of few coins.
>
> > > > > > > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > > > > > > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > > > > > > (C) David Franks 2003
>
> > > > > > > On Nov 12, 10:31 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Poem 114 of 230: CLITHEROE CASTLE'S VIEWS - SUMMER 2000
>
> > > > > > > > From outside metres-thick wall
> > > > > > > >     (Down on leafy grounds grown tall,
> > > > > > > > Then across stony households
> > > > > > > >     To lush-green sheep-grazing folds,
> > > > > > > > And up further to the moor),
> > > > > > > >     Clitheroe Castle's views soar.
>
> > > > > > > > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > > > > > > > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > > > > > > > (C) David Franks 2003
>
> > > > > > > > On Nov 11, 9:32 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Poem 84 of 230: NATIONALISM WITHOUT CONQUEST
>
> > > > > > > > > Everything in moderation..?
> > > > > > > > >     Well, with "nationalism" it's true:
> > > > > > > > > It can carry unique cultures on
> > > > > > > > >     But, overdosed, cause their conquest, too.
>
> > > > > > > > > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > > > > > > > > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > > > > > > > > (C) David Franks 2003
>
> > > > > > > > > On Nov 10, 9:34 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On the news here in England, last night, a record lottery win was
> > > > > > > > > > announced and celebrated:  I agree with Oliver Cromwell and modern-day
> > > > > > > > > > Taiwan - gambling should be ILLEGAL...
>
> > > > > > > > > > Poem 138 of 230:  AN OPIUM
>
> > > > > > > > > > National Lottery passes -
> > > > > > > > > >     Slight chances to be richer,
> > > > > > > > > >     With lots more than thy neighbour,
> > > > > > > > > >     Gained without any labour -
> > > > > > > > > >     Keep the system in favour:
> > > > > > > > > > An opium of the masses.
>
> > > > > > > > > > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > > > > > > > > > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > > > > > > > > > (C) David Franks 2003
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Nov 9, 9:34 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > With both national rugby-league and rugby-union teams currently on
> > > > > > > > > > > tour in England...
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Poem 99 of 230: ONE RUGBY?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > With sixth-tackle, knock-on and touch-line hand-over -
> > > > > > > > > > >     No scrums, line-outs, rucks or mauls;
> > > > > > > > > > > The rest (the best of both codes) would hardly alter -
> > > > > > > > > > >     And no splits, due to two calls.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Fromhttp://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse(e-book)
> > > > > > > > > > > Orhttp://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com(e-scroll)
> > > > > > > > > > > (C) David Franks 2003
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 8, 9:17 am, walkaboutsverse <david1fra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Poem 212 of 230:  REMEMBER THEM?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Back when we became defenders
> > > > > > > > > > > >     (We have plainly been attackers),
> > > > > > > > > > > > Defenders' blood, sweat and years
> > > > > > > > > > > >     Were paid to
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -






==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lamb
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/325d0963189f5b53?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 6:36 am
From: George Dance


On Nov 17, 12:40 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> In article
>
> The author of the captioning for this probably isn't a native-English
> speaker:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTQA6bOiHkE

Before this slips away, I wanted to thank you for posting it. I'd
never heard of Barbara Mauritz & Lamb before, and the accompanying
text was so badly written that I couldn't tell whether this was
actually a song by them, from the 60s, or a song about them from the
00s. I was able, though, to use that page to find this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgPw2Q9-6jc

I found the first Lamb song to be simply amazing, a classic if only
more people knew of it (which they will, thanks to the DVD). The
second was good, too, but not as mindblowing (probably because it was
the second).

In between, one has to watch and listen to Lydia Pense for 3 minutes
or so, but there's nothing wrong with that, eh?





== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 8:04 am
From: George Dance


On Nov 19, 11:17 pm, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> In article
> <2eb0888c-2f9a-4583-a345-f6082fa45...@o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
> George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 12:40 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <bafb1a30-a529-4b32-a8ef-40460291d...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> > > George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > On Nov 14, 9:51 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:56:20 -0800 (PST), George Dance
> > > > > <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > >On Nov 14, 2:05 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > >> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:32:01 -0800 (PST), George Dance
> > > > > >> <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > >> >On Nov 13, 11:04 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > >> >> In article
> > > > > >> >> <9cb4c7d7-2ed8-4325-8392-060a5f61f...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com
> > > > > >> >> >,
> > > > > >> >> George Dance says...
> > > > > >> >> >On Nov 7, 5:50 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > >> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/msg/
> > > > > >> >> >7bfe85631...
>
> {[<snip>]}
>

Thanks.

>
>
> > > I can't decide which of you to send my tuition payments to.
>
> > > Thrall and Hibbard and doubtless the other handbooks are school books.
> > > I'll withhold payment until I know whether you think of poetry as a
> > > school subject or a cultural activity.
>
> > I think of poetry as a school subject or a cultural activity. Pay me.
>
> I'll gladly pay you with implied 'eithers', and all you want.
>

Heh! That was funnier on the logic groups, of course; but like any old
guy (I'm thinking of my father here) I can't resist recycling my old
jokes. It is the best answer to the question: "Is the glass half-full
or half-empty?" Of course it is.

> > > I have M.H. Abrams's A Glossary of Literary Terms (based on the original
> > > version by Dan S. Northon and Peters Rushton, and older than all of us).
> > > As the entry word, Abrams spells it 'vilanelle' (and says "see Stanza"),
> > > but in his glossing of stanza he spells it 'villanelle'.
>
> > I've seen it spelled 'vilanelle' before. For some reason that's been
> > sometimes attached as a title to Ronald Leighton's "Violets" (that I
> > posted near Remembrance Day, even though it's a villanelle only in the
> > original sense. Dennis Hammes also spelled it that way, at least once,
> > until PJ Ross began mocking him for it. Sad to say, I joined in the
> > mockery. (It was after Dennis had written the poem about my "mama"
> > sucking Will D., so my joining in was reasonable if not excusable.)
>
> My favorite was Hammes's use of 'sung' ("No choir will sing what
> Pavarotti sung"), in of all things a villanelle, which Ross mocked on
> grounds of oyvey illogic (choir is many, Pavarotti is one), and later
> said 'sung' should be 'sang'.

I remember reading that in the archives. It came in handy when Ross
posted his vaunted translation of Das Loreleyleid, with the lines:

My Muse she told me to hearken
to the ballads this lady sung.

At that point, of course, Ross had no recollection of the previous
incident.

> Before that, or after, or simultaneously,
> the loquacious shadow of Cythera also chimed in, which can only be found
> in my reply to her scrubbed post (bracketed for focus):
>
> [in article fadef76.0403190008.78553...@posting.google.com, cythera at
> cyth...@my-deja.com wrote on 3/19/04 3:08 AM:
>
> > "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote in message
> > <news:405A0D1C...@arvig.net>...
> >> How Well They Knew
> >> No choir will sing what Pavarotti sung
> > "sang"
>
> No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right.]
>

Cythera wrote that it "don't sound right"? That indicates either a
wicked sense of humour, or tremendous stupidity, neither of which
she's revealed to me before. I hope it's the former.

> Incidentally, 'sung' was correct in Hammes's poem.
>

From you I'd believe that. Though, isn't the criterion of wrong word
usage, whether or not it sounds wrong to the reader (rather than
whether it actually is wrong)? Somewhat like Family Feud.

> > > For 'Strophe'
> > > he says "see Ode". I never, ever heard or saw 'strophe' used generically
> > > until I saw it on these groups.
>
> > As a Canadian, I should like it because it's bilingual, eh? Those of
> > us who write in English suffer from the loss of so many declensions,
> > but we gain two advantages: (1) the ability to invert word order, and
> > (2) all those synonyms. We're rich because of the borrowing from other
> > languages. I'd be happy to see that process extended, with a Canadian
> > English that incorporated all the French nouns as synonyms.
>
> Please explain English's "ability to invert word order" (whatever you
> might mean by 'invert') since it's the loss of inflections that makes
> grammar dependent on word order. We can't say 'The farmer likes the
> girl' and 'The girl likes the farmer' to mean the same thing, like I
> displayed in Latin on another thread (Agricola puellam amat and Puellam
> agricola amat mean the same thing).

I don't think that I could explain that properly without stopping this
reply and rummaging through texts -- which I'll do later, but I don't
want to stop again. I can see your point, that inversion is something
we've lost by losing inflections; the less inflections, the more
important word order becomes to parse the thing.

Still, the inversions we do have are one of the most powerful tools or
tricks the language gives a poet, and I encourage new writers to
explore the possibilities. (Probably one of the things Karla means by
my "witch doctor advice 8).

> Maybe you're thinking about
> so-called linking verbs and how they allow a sentence's putative
> grammatical subject and predicate to be 'inverted' without any violence
> done to meaning, e.g., 'Poutine is Canada's national food' and 'Canada's
> national food is poutine'. Either never mind, or I'll wait.
>

(Some would say it's 'putain.) That's a good example, but it's not one
I was thinking of. Unfortunately, I can't think of any examples off
the top of my head except lines from my own poems, so I'll toss a few
of those in and hope they work as illustrations:

If there's reason I can't recall it, [I can't recall if there's
reason]
So all has faded that was my delight [So all that was my delight has
faded]
How soon leaves fall: [How soon fall leaves]

<snip>

>
> > > Why are there still people here who want to make clear (or muddy)
> > > distinctions between songs and poems, or 'song lyrics' and 'poetry'? I
> > > know why. Who else knows why?
>
> > I don't, and I'd like to know. AFAIC, poetry is written text "that
> > formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in
> > language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response
> > through meaning, sound, and rhythm" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate
> > Dictionary). Some song lyrics meet that criterion (like "There is a
> > War"; some don't (like "Chewy Chewy").
>
> MW defines words for readers and others who don't already know their
> meanings. Most of us know what poetry is before we know what
> dictionaries are.

I agree with your second sentence. But I think definitions are also
useful, for those who are certain they know what 'poetry' (or whatnot)
means, as something they can give others to explain: "This is exactly
what I mean by poetry." -- and I like that one so much because it
captures what I mean by poetry so well. Nothing about prosody or
imagery or line breaks or all the trappings, just the big picture.

> Jeebus, that definition is sneaky-negative and
> hideously self-serving, saying poetry is the opposite of what a
> dictionary's written text is.
>

Yeah, but it is, isn't it?

>
> > > I didn't see 'critique' mentioned in my Thrall and Hibbard or in the
> > > Abrams, or in Brooks and Warren. It's a co-opted New Age term of (cough)
> > > art, its vogue sense probably aligning with the Human Potential Movement.
>
> > I looked it up in the Coles Dictionary. It's not there, either. The
> > word they use is 'criticism'.
>
> Would you agree with me that a 'critique' of a poem isn't any kind of
> formal process, and that it's more or less a stand-in term for critical
> analysis, which is a formal process (and beyond the abilities of most
> posters these days)? I realize I'm asking a lot. I was surprised that
> Cythera's mention of 'explication of the text' fell on deaf eyes when
> she praised that technique in epiphanaic terms.
>

I found Cythera to be quite illuminating and helpful when talking
about what a critique should be or be like (I just never found much of
that in her own 'critiques' or those of her allies.) I agree that
there isn't much real critical analysis to be found here (though shaun
seems to be only one admitting it). I've been called out on that
myself: for not critiquing ~chit~, for example. But hell, man, a real
critical analysis would take many days and many drafts; and I'm just
not gonna do that for something a "Skilled Poet" tossed off in five
minutes or less.

>
> > > On the one hand there's poetry, on the other there's the boils on one's
> > > asshole, as Robert Herrick said about his Heperides. And look again at
> > > The Argument Of His Book:
>
> > > I Sing of Brooks, of Blossomes, Birds, and Bowers:
> > > Of April, May, of June, and July-Flowers.
> > > I sing of May-poles, Hock-carts, Wassails, Wakes,
> > > Of Bride-grooms, Brides and of their Bridall-cakes.
> > > I write of Youth, of Love, and have Accesse
> > > By these to sing of cleanly-Wantonnesse.
> > > I sing of Dewes, of Raines, and piece by piece
> > > Of Balme, of Oyle, of Spice and Amber-Greece.
> > > I sing of Times trans-shifting, and I write
> > > How Roses first came Red and Lilies White. [1]
> > > I write of Groves, of Twilights, and I sing
> > > The Court of Mab, and of the Fairie-King.
> > > I write of Hell; I sing (and ever shall)
> > > Of Heaven, and hope to have it after all. [2]
>
> > > [1] I love writers who think of the names of colors as nouns.
>
> > > [2] Isn't it cool how Herrick uses 'all' here, definitely not as
> > > Jonson's noun usage in 'All is not sweet, all is not sound'?
>
> > That's a great ending. And a sonnet in heroic couplets is something
> > I've never seen before, aside from a few bad first sonnets. I also
> > like how he alternates 'write' and ''sing': imagine how boring it
> > would've got if he'd stuck to just one.
>
> Can you suggest why he employs both 'sing' and 'write' (other than his
> empathy for your attention span)?
>

Hey, that's not a minor point. Repetition is one of the most effective
tools of prosody a poet has; but it's also one of the easiest to
misuse. And Herrick uses it very well. I'm sure he could have come up
with a unique verb for every instance -- I chant, talk, tell, scribe,
blah, blah -- but that would have been awful: it would have ended up
competing for attention with his wonderful bouquet of nouns.

He uses 'sing' for 'write', I suppose, to make the same point you were
making earlier, about the affinity between poetry and song.

> My first sonnet attempt used rhyming couplets, I didn't think it was
> bad, bad like my subsequent attempts with the traditional forms, and it
> was published in my college's annual (exclusive and snooty) literary
> magazine.
>

It's the easiest, most basic rhyme scheme, so perhaps it's the one
that should be essayed first. I'd like to read yours: all I've read
from you has been from your later period, long after you'd put aside
formal verse.

> Obpoint: Are you certain that posting a Usenet poster's poetry (or
> poem), or commentary, etc., - I'll qualify it - originally posted to
> aapc and posted later by someone else at aapc can be construed
> unabsurdly as copyright infringement?

No, I don't; I consider it absurd prima facie. As I see it, posting
something onto a group is giving anyone else permission to quote it on
that same group: and there's no statute of limitations on that
permission. As I've pointed out a few times (as has Will, many a
time), even those who claim that don't follow it themselves.

> How did such a chilling notion get
> started, and how did it gain currency? I challenge you to come up with
> something stupider than that notion; it seems to be part of a general
> trend here of dwelling on anything except poetry itself (wherever it's
> found).
>

I've got my own suspicions. AIUI, the intent of AAPC is to be a
workshop environment, where the more-skilled poets help the less-
skilled improve. I see those as completely relative terms -- I'm 'more-
skilled' wrt to some of the poets here, and 'less skilled' wrt others.
The only real criteria for telling who is more or less skilled in any
dialogue is the poets' own work.

I see this whole 'copyright violation' nonsense as being a way to bury
that criterion, and substitute a different one: ie, I'm a skilled
writer because I and the rest of my clique say so: you aren't because
none of us say so. IOW, 'skilled poet' becomes a vague abstraction
without any concrete referents (a "floating abstraction," to use Ayn
Rand's delightfu phrase).

But what else are you gonna do? How else to keep up the pretence that,
say, a Barbara's Cat or a jr sherman (or even a ggamble or a PJ, FTM)
are skilled poets, and therefore worth paying attention to at all,
except by burying their work?

Enough of that rant. You've got me wondering why, when I don't believe
that nonsense myself, am I following it? In particular, why haven't I
reposted Leisha's original villanelle into this thread myself? There's
probably no need for that, since Karla did give a link; but I've been
holding onto an interlinear I did of the two versions, and posting
that would do much to put the conversation between Karla and me back
on the rails. So I think I will post that today.





== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 8:07 am
From: prettystuzz


In article
<c4615e81-ec7d-40c6...@p28g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
George Dance <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> On Nov 17, 12:40 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > In article
> >
> > The author of the captioning for this probably isn't a native-English
> > speaker:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTQA6bOiHkE
>
> Before this slips away, I wanted to thank you for posting it. I'd
> never heard of Barbara Mauritz & Lamb before, and the accompanying
> text was so badly written that I couldn't tell whether this was
> actually a song by them, from the 60s, or a song about them from the
> 00s. I was able, though, to use that page to find this one:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgPw2Q9-6jc
>
> I found the first Lamb song to be simply amazing, a classic if only
> more people knew of it (which they will, thanks to the DVD). The
> second was good, too, but not as mindblowing (probably because it was
> the second).
>
> In between, one has to watch and listen to Lydia Pense for 3 minutes
> or so, but there's nothing wrong with that, eh?

I have two equally badly worn Cold Blood's first LP's and the Best Of
Cold Blood CD. Lydia's heat is in my blood like holy wine. There's
another YouTube of that same You Got Me Humming Filmore performance
without the split multiple camera edits, which I found a few years ago,
and hoping for a higher quality version I found the one you've seen, and
the other day I watched the one I posted the link to, mainly for Karla's
pleasure since she had met an authentic Digger and from time to time
digs for certifiable authentic documents herself which prove that it
was, in fact, a lucid dream that some of us had. Reading that video's
poster's complete info, I followed the link to Wolfgang's Vault:

http://www.wolfgangsvault.com/concerts/

where Barbara's full performance (almost an hour) is available as a free
concert, but not as a download or for sale, only to listen to. My free
streaming recorder's freedom elapsed long ago, I found another free
recorder, patched it into free Audacity for conversion and editing, and
burned a CD. I'm building up reward points at Amazon and will soon get
that Last Days DVD and the new not-yet released Madeleine Peyroux DVD
(she looks like she could be Lydia's daughter!). I just got the Cowboy
Junkies Long Journey Home DVD/CD last week but haven't watched it or
listened to the CD, but I put the CD into iTunes. Still no Beth Orton
DVD, though (have you seen her Sisters of Mercy YouTube?) In January a
Louis Armstrong DVD will be released, which I hope will be a better
record of his greatness than the mediocre and poor DVDs I sadly have.
Today's quiz: What's in Tim Buckley's right eye on his Hello and Goodbye
album cover?




== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 8:24 am
From: George Dance


On Nov 7, 5:36 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:

>
> George, I didn't look at the original poem posted by Leisha before making
> my comments, and I didn't remember it. I've read it now, and I much prefer
> both the original title and poem to the revised. The revised loses a lot of
> the vibrancy and natural conversational sound. The revised is stiff and
> does come off as mind games. Leisha, if you're reading, may I paste the
> original here? I would like to compare where yours works and the revised
> does not. For the rest who many not have read the original post, here's the
> link:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/msg/7bfe85631af24fcc?hl=en

I'd like to read your comparison, and it might be fun to write my own
as well, showing why I changed what I did. So, while (as Leisha
pointed out) the link 'works' for anyone wanting to read the original,
I think it would be in order to post an interlinear of the two poems
for comparison purposes. I'm sorry for the delay in posting that: I
originally put it together 10 days or so ago, but refrained from
posting it due to what's been said here about 'copyright violations',
an opinion I've been trying to respect. I changed my mind on the
latter point after discussing it with Stuart today.

(I added a second caret mark to Leisha's lines, so they can't be
confused with your text above.)

>> My Lover the Psychiatrist

Mind Games

>> “What do you get from that epiphany?”

“What do you get from that epiphany?”

>> He’s fond of asking. I say I don’t know.

you like to ask. When I say I don’t know:

>> “If you did know, what would the answer be?”

“And if you knew, what would the answer be?”

>> “Why do you need a week alone to ski?”

“Why do you need a week alone to ski?”

>> he asks. I say I’m inspired by snow.

you ask. I tell you I’m inspired by snow.

>> “What do you get from that? Epiphanies?

“What do you get from that? Epiphany?"

>> I assume you know we’ll both get lonely.”

“I’m going to miss you. You know you'll miss me.”

>> I can’t think about it; I need to go.

I don’t know what to say (I have to go!)

>> “If you could think, what would your answer be?”

and, if I knew, what would the answer be?

>> Okay. You pound on me persistently—

Enough! You pound on me persistently –

>> not to hurt me, but to crack my ego.

though not to hurt me, just to crack ego.

>> “Where do you go from that epiphany?”

(What do I get from that epiphany?)

>> I think he’ll shatter me indifferently

I think you'll shatter me repeatedly

>> ‘til I surrender. But I don’t say so:

till I surrender. But if I said so,

>> It’s what is, not what my answer can be.

and if you knew, what would the answer be?

>> I redirect: It isn’t you, it’s me.

I redirect: “It isn’t you, it’s me –

>> I’m just not ready yet; let’s take it slow.

I’m just not ready yet – Let’s take it slow –”

>> What do I get for this epiphany?

What do we get from that epiphany,

>> If you were me, what would your answer be?

and (if we knew) what would the answer be?








== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 8:36 am
From: prettystuzz


In article
<4e49a0d2-c88d-4082...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
George Dance <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> > Before that, or after, or simultaneously,
> > the loquacious shadow of Cythera also chimed in, which can only be found
> > in my reply to her scrubbed post (bracketed for focus):
> >
> > [in article fadef76.0403190008.78553...@posting.google.com, cythera at
> > cyth...@my-deja.com wrote on 3/19/04 3:08 AM:
> >
> > > "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote in message
> > > <news:405A0D1C...@arvig.net>...
> > >> How Well They Knew
> > >> No choir will sing what Pavarotti sung
> > > "sang"
> >
> > No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right.]
> >
>
> Cythera wrote that it "don't sound right"? That indicates either a
> wicked sense of humour, or tremendous stupidity, neither of which
> she's revealed to me before. I hope it's the former.

No, I wrote "No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right".
I often enjoy paraphrasing Warren as Clyde to tied-up Texas Ranger Hamer
("That don't make sense now, do it?")




== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 9:29 am
From: George Dance


On Nov 20, 11:36 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> In article
> <4e49a0d2-c88d-4082-88af-921884f29...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
>  George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Before that, or after, or simultaneously,
> > > the loquacious shadow of Cythera also chimed in, which can only be found
> > > in my reply to her scrubbed post (bracketed for focus):
>
> > > [in article fadef76.0403190008.78553...@posting.google.com, cythera at
> > > cyth...@my-deja.com wrote on 3/19/04 3:08 AM:
>
> > > > "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote in message
> > > > <news:405A0D1C...@arvig.net>...
> > > >> How Well They Knew
> > > >> No choir will sing what Pavarotti sung
> > > > "sang"
>
> > > No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right.]
>
> > Cythera wrote that it "don't sound right"? That indicates either a
> > wicked sense of humour, or tremendous stupidity, neither of which
> > she's revealed to me before. I hope it's the former.
>
> No, I wrote "No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right".
> I often enjoy paraphrasing Warren as Clyde to tied-up Texas Ranger Hamer
> ("That don't make sense now, do it?")

On Nov 20, 11:36 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> In article
> <4e49a0d2-c88d-4082-88af-921884f29...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
> George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Before that, or after, or simultaneously,
> > > the loquacious shadow of Cythera also chimed in, which can only be found
> > > in my reply to her scrubbed post (bracketed for focus):
>
> > > [in article fadef76.0403190008.78553...@posting.google.com, cythera at
> > > cyth...@my-deja.com wrote on 3/19/04 3:08 AM:
>
> > > > "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote in message
> > > > <news:405A0D1C...@arvig.net>...
> > > >> How Well They Knew
> > > >> No choir will sing what Pavarotti sung
> > > > "sang"
>
> > > No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right.]
>
> > Cythera wrote that it "don't sound right"? That indicates either a
> > wicked sense of humour, or tremendous stupidity, neither of which
> > she's revealed to me before. I hope it's the former.
>
> No, I wrote "No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right".
> I often enjoy paraphrasing Warren as Clyde to tied-up Texas Ranger Hamer
> ("That don't make sense now, do it?")

Thanks for the clarification. I went searching for the messages, and
couldn't find them (though I did find a thread with PJ calling Dennis
names like "Dullard" plus you writing Dennis and advising him to
ignore all of that).

One thing I found during my search, and which I'd like to share in the
hope it may be new to you (or at least to Pedant J Ross) was a poem by
Edmund Waller, "The Story of Phœbus and Daphne, Applied," which
contains these two sets of couplets:

Like Phœbus sung the no less amorous boy;
Like Daphne she, as lovely, and as coy;

Yet what he sung in his immortal strain,
Though unsuccessful, was not sung in vain;

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/html/1807/4350/poem2250.html







== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 3:19 pm
From: prettystuzz


In article
<9d0c1b37-43ae-41e4...@k9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
George Dance <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> On Nov 20, 11:36 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <4e49a0d2-c88d-4082-88af-921884f29...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
> >  George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Before that, or after, or simultaneously,
> > > > the loquacious shadow of Cythera also chimed in, which can only be found
> > > > in my reply to her scrubbed post (bracketed for focus):
> >
> > > > [in article fadef76.0403190008.78553...@posting.google.com, cythera at
> > > > cyth...@my-deja.com wrote on 3/19/04 3:08 AM:
> >
> > > > > "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote in message
> > > > > <news:405A0D1C...@arvig.net>...
> > > > >> How Well They Knew
> > > > >> No choir will sing what Pavarotti sung
> > > > > "sang"
> >
> > > > No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right.]
> >
> > > Cythera wrote that it "don't sound right"? That indicates either a
> > > wicked sense of humour, or tremendous stupidity, neither of which
> > > she's revealed to me before. I hope it's the former.
> >
> > No, I wrote "No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right".
> > I often enjoy paraphrasing Warren as Clyde to tied-up Texas Ranger Hamer
> > ("That don't make sense now, do it?")
>
> On Nov 20, 11:36 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <4e49a0d2-c88d-4082-88af-921884f29...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
> > George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Before that, or after, or simultaneously,
> > > > the loquacious shadow of Cythera also chimed in, which can only be found
> > > > in my reply to her scrubbed post (bracketed for focus):
> >
> > > > [in article fadef76.0403190008.78553...@posting.google.com, cythera at
> > > > cyth...@my-deja.com wrote on 3/19/04 3:08 AM:
> >
> > > > > "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote in message
> > > > > <news:405A0D1C...@arvig.net>...
> > > > >> How Well They Knew
> > > > >> No choir will sing what Pavarotti sung
> > > > > "sang"
> >
> > > > No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right.]
> >
> > > Cythera wrote that it "don't sound right"? That indicates either a
> > > wicked sense of humour, or tremendous stupidity, neither of which
> > > she's revealed to me before. I hope it's the former.
> >
> > No, I wrote "No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right".
> > I often enjoy paraphrasing Warren as Clyde to tied-up Texas Ranger Hamer
> > ("That don't make sense now, do it?")
>
> Thanks for the clarification. I went searching for the messages, and
> couldn't find them (though I did find a thread with PJ calling Dennis
> names like "Dullard" plus you writing Dennis and advising him to
> ignore all of that).

It can't be hard to find. Anyway, the thread title and the title of
Hammes's villanelle are How Well They Knew. Try that.

>
> One thing I found during my search, and which I'd like to share in the
> hope it may be new to you (or at least to Pedant J Ross) was a poem by
> Edmund Waller, "The Story of Ph¦bus and Daphne, Applied," which
> contains these two sets of couplets:
>
> Like Ph¦bus sung the no less amorous boy;
> Like Daphne she, as lovely, and as coy;
>
> Yet what he sung in his immortal strain,
> Though unsuccessful, was not sung in vain;
>
> https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/html/1807/4350/poem2250.html

Say what you must, yet Ross is our Ayn Rand. Can you believe he employed
such an imperious verb as when he wrote that he once 'approved' of
Leisha? It must have depleted your supply of nitroglycerin tabs.




== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 4:22 pm
From: George Dance


On Nov 20, 6:19 pm, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> In article
> <9d0c1b37-43ae-41e4-b8f3-e9be50d19...@k9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
>  George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 20, 11:36 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <4e49a0d2-c88d-4082-88af-921884f29...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
> > >  George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > > > > Before that, or after, or simultaneously,
> > > > > the loquacious shadow of Cythera also chimed in, which can only be found
> > > > > in my reply to her scrubbed post (bracketed for focus):
>
> > > > > [in article fadef76.0403190008.78553...@posting.google.com, cythera at
> > > > > cyth...@my-deja.com wrote on 3/19/04 3:08 AM:
>
> > > > > > "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > <news:405A0D1C...@arvig.net>...
> > > > > >> How Well They Knew
> > > > > >> No choir will sing what Pavarotti sung
> > > > > > "sang"
>
> > > > > No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right.]
>
> > > > Cythera wrote that it "don't sound right"? That indicates either a
> > > > wicked sense of humour, or tremendous stupidity, neither of which
> > > > she's revealed to me before. I hope it's the former.
>
> > > No, I wrote "No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right".
> > > I often enjoy paraphrasing Warren as Clyde to tied-up Texas Ranger Hamer
> > > ("That don't make sense now, do it?")
>
> > On Nov 20, 11:36 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <4e49a0d2-c88d-4082-88af-921884f29...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
> > >  George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > > > > Before that, or after, or simultaneously,
> > > > > the loquacious shadow of Cythera also chimed in, which can only be found
> > > > > in my reply to her scrubbed post (bracketed for focus):
>
> > > > > [in article fadef76.0403190008.78553...@posting.google.com, cythera at
> > > > > cyth...@my-deja.com wrote on 3/19/04 3:08 AM:
>
> > > > > > "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > <news:405A0D1C...@arvig.net>...
> > > > > >> How Well They Knew
> > > > > >> No choir will sing what Pavarotti sung
> > > > > > "sang"
>
> > > > > No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right.]
>
> > > > Cythera wrote that it "don't sound right"? That indicates either a
> > > > wicked sense of humour, or tremendous stupidity, neither of which
> > > > she's revealed to me before. I hope it's the former.
>
> > > No, I wrote "No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right".
> > > I often enjoy paraphrasing Warren as Clyde to tied-up Texas Ranger Hamer
> > > ("That don't make sense now, do it?")
>
> > Thanks for the clarification. I went searching for the messages, and
> > couldn't find them (though I did find a thread  with PJ calling Dennis
> > names like "Dullard" plus you writing Dennis and advising him to
> > ignore all of that).
>
> It can't be hard to find. Anyway, the thread title and the title of
> Hammes's villanelle are How Well They Knew. Try that.
>

Oh, I did find it eventually. It was in the thread I was reading, way
down at the bottom:

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.arts.poems/msg/a9b0613e8ff38c03?hl=en

>
> > One thing I found during my search, and which I'd like to share in the
> > hope it may be new to you (or at least to Pedant J Ross) was a poem by
> > Edmund Waller, "The Story of Phoebus and Daphne, Applied," which
> > contains these two sets of couplets:
>
> > Like Phoebus sung the no less amorous boy;
> > Like Daphne she, as lovely, and as coy;
>
> > Yet what he sung in his immortal strain,
> > Though unsuccessful, was not sung in vain;
>
> >https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/html/1807/4350/poem2250.html
>
> Say what you must, yet Ross is our Ayn Rand.

Big difference: Rand was a talented writer and original thinker, which
somewhat excused her arrogance.

> Can you believe he employed
> such an imperious verb as when he wrote that he once 'approved' of
> Leisha? It must have depleted your supply of nitroglycerin tabs.

heh!





== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 5:29 pm
From: prettystuzz


In article
<4e49a0d2-c88d-4082...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
George Dance <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> On Nov 19, 11:17 pm, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <2eb0888c-2f9a-4583-a345-f6082fa45...@o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>,
> > George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > On Nov 17, 12:40 am, prettystuzz <leich...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <bafb1a30-a529-4b32-a8ef-40460291d...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > On Nov 14, 9:51 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 17:56:20 -0800 (PST), George Dance
> > > > > > <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > >On Nov 14, 2:05 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 08:32:01 -0800 (PST), George Dance
> > > > > > >> <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > >> >On Nov 13, 11:04 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> In article
> > > > > > >> >> <9cb4c7d7-2ed8-4325-8392-060a5f61f...@a31g2000yqn.googlegroups
> > > > > > >> >> .com
> > > > > > >> >> >,
> > > > > > >> >> George Dance says...
> > > > > > >> >> >On Nov 7, 5:50 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> > > > > > >> >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/msg
> > > > > > >> >> > >/
> > > > > > >> >> >7bfe85631...
> >
> > {[<snip>]}
> >
>
> Thanks.
>
> >
> >
> > > > I can't decide which of you to send my tuition payments to.
> >
> > > > Thrall and Hibbard and doubtless the other handbooks are school books.
> > > > I'll withhold payment until I know whether you think of poetry as a
> > > > school subject or a cultural activity.
> >
> > > I think of poetry as a school subject or a cultural activity. Pay me.
> >
> > I'll gladly pay you with implied 'eithers', and all you want.
> >
>
> Heh! That was funnier on the logic groups, of course; but like any old
> guy (I'm thinking of my father here) I can't resist recycling my old
> jokes. It is the best answer to the question: "Is the glass half-full
> or half-empty?" Of course it is.
>
> > > > I have M.H. Abrams's A Glossary of Literary Terms (based on the
> > > > original
> > > > version by Dan S. Northon and Peters Rushton, and older than all of
> > > > us).
> > > > As the entry word, Abrams spells it 'vilanelle' (and says "see
> > > > Stanza"),
> > > > but in his glossing of stanza he spells it 'villanelle'.
> >
> > > I've seen it spelled 'vilanelle' before. For some reason that's been
> > > sometimes attached as a title to Ronald Leighton's "Violets" (that I
> > > posted near Remembrance Day, even though it's a villanelle only in the
> > > original sense. Dennis Hammes also spelled it that way, at least once,
> > > until PJ Ross began mocking him for it. Sad to say, I joined in the
> > > mockery. (It was after Dennis had written the poem about my "mama"
> > > sucking Will D., so my joining in was reasonable if not excusable.)
> >
> > My favorite was Hammes's use of 'sung' ("No choir will sing what
> > Pavarotti sung"), in of all things a villanelle, which Ross mocked on
> > grounds of oyvey illogic (choir is many, Pavarotti is one), and later
> > said 'sung' should be 'sang'.
>
> I remember reading that in the archives. It came in handy when Ross
> posted his vaunted translation of Das Loreleyleid, with the lines:
>
> My Muse she told me to hearken
> to the ballads this lady sung.
>
> At that point, of course, Ross had no recollection of the previous
> incident.
>
> > Before that, or after, or simultaneously,
> > the loquacious shadow of Cythera also chimed in, which can only be found
> > in my reply to her scrubbed post (bracketed for focus):
> >
> > [in article fadef76.0403190008.78553...@posting.google.com, cythera at
> > cyth...@my-deja.com wrote on 3/19/04 3:08 AM:
> >
> > > "Dennis M. Hammes" <scrawlm...@arvig.net> wrote in message
> > > <news:405A0D1C...@arvig.net>...
> > >> How Well They Knew
> > >> No choir will sing what Pavarotti sung
> > > "sang"
> >
> > No choir will sang what Pavarotti sung don't sound right.]
> >
>
> Cythera wrote that it "don't sound right"? That indicates either a
> wicked sense of humour, or tremendous stupidity, neither of which
> she's revealed to me before. I hope it's the former.

Hope is the thing with feathers.

>
> > Incidentally, 'sung' was correct in Hammes's poem.
> >
>
> From you I'd believe that. Though, isn't the criterion of wrong word
> usage, whether or not it sounds wrong to the reader (rather than
> whether it actually is wrong)? Somewhat like Family Feud.

You'd be surprised, probably shocked, to see how the dictionaries treat
the principle parts of 'sing'. To my knowledge, only WNW4 doesn't
include 'sung' for the simple past tense, although its previous editions
had done so. WNW has always been my dictionary of choice, it has the
best etymologies, but I sometimes get a second opinion.

>
> > > > For 'Strophe'
> > > > he says "see Ode". I never, ever heard or saw 'strophe' used
> > > > generically
> > > > until I saw it on these groups.
> >
> > > As a Canadian, I should like it because it's bilingual, eh? Those of
> > > us who write in English suffer from the loss of so many declensions,
> > > but we gain two advantages: (1) the ability to invert word order, and
> > > (2) all those synonyms. We're rich because of the borrowing from other
> > > languages. I'd be happy to see that process extended, with a Canadian
> > > English that incorporated all the French nouns as synonyms.
> >
> > Please explain English's "ability to invert word order" (whatever you
> > might mean by 'invert') since it's the loss of inflections that makes
> > grammar dependent on word order. We can't say 'The farmer likes the
> > girl' and 'The girl likes the farmer' to mean the same thing, like I
> > displayed in Latin on another thread (Agricola puellam amat and Puellam
> > agricola amat mean the same thing).
>
> I don't think that I could explain that properly without stopping this
> reply and rummaging through texts -- which I'll do later, but I don't
> want to stop again. I can see your point, that inversion is something
> we've lost by losing inflections; the less inflections, the more
> important word order becomes to parse the thing.
>
> Still, the inversions we do have are one of the most powerful tools or
> tricks the language gives a poet, and I encourage new writers to
> explore the possibilities. (Probably one of the things Karla means by
> my "witch doctor advice 8).
>
> > Maybe you're thinking about
> > so-called linking verbs and how they allow a sentence's putative
> > grammatical subject and predicate to be 'inverted' without any violence
> > done to meaning, e.g., 'Poutine is Canada's national food' and 'Canada's
> > national food is poutine'. Either never mind, or I'll wait.
> >
>
> (Some would say it's 'putain.) That's a good example, but it's not one
> I was thinking of. Unfortunately, I can't think of any examples off
> the top of my head except lines from my own poems, so I'll toss a few
> of those in and hope they work as illustrations:
>
> If there's reason I can't recall it, [I can't recall if there's
> reason]
> So all has faded that was my delight [So all that was my delight has
> faded]
> How soon leaves fall: [How soon fall leaves]

The last is entwined with its double-entendres, isn't it not? If we
substitute (what you've called a 'synonym') and have 'How soon leaves
Autumn', we have a kind of artificiality, i.e., not a natural use of the
language. The first and second examples shift the emphases in slightly
different ways: the first switches the clause order (rhetoric handbooks
suggest that the main idea should be expressed in the independent clause
of a complex sentence, and that it's most effective at the end; of
course a good writer will know best). The second instance in the second
example places the subordinate clause between the subject and predicate
of the main clause.
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> > > > Why are there still people here who want to make clear (or muddy)
> > > > distinctions between songs and poems, or 'song lyrics' and 'poetry'? I
> > > > know why. Who else knows why?
> >
> > > I don't, and I'd like to know. AFAIC, poetry is written text "that
> > > formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in
> > > language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response
> > > through meaning, sound, and rhythm" (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate
> > > Dictionary). Some song lyrics meet that criterion (like "There is a
> > > War"; some don't (like "Chewy Chewy").
> >
> > MW defines words for readers and others who don't already know their
> > meanings. Most of us know what poetry is before we know what
> > dictionaries are.
>
> I agree with your second sentence. But I think definitions are also
> useful, for those who are certain they know what 'poetry' (or whatnot)
> means, as something they can give others to explain: "This is exactly
> what I mean by poetry." -- and I like that one so much because it
> captures what I mean by poetry so well. Nothing about prosody or
> imagery or line breaks or all the trappings, just the big picture.
>
> > Jeebus, that definition is sneaky-negative and
> > hideously self-serving, saying poetry is the opposite of what a
> > dictionary's written text is.
> >
>
> Yeah, but it is, isn't it?

Around here, dictionaries are used against far more than they're used
for. Johnson had it right. It's delusional to think that words can be
neutral; the dictionary industry tries to neutralize their entries but
they wind up neutering everything. The OED isn't part of that industry.
>
> >
> > > > I didn't see 'critique' mentioned in my Thrall and Hibbard or in the
> > > > Abrams, or in Brooks and Warren. It's a co-opted New Age term of
> > > > (cough)
> > > > art, its vogue sense probably aligning with the Human Potential
> > > > Movement.
> >
> > > I looked it up in the Coles Dictionary. It's not there, either. The
> > > word they use is 'criticism'.
> >
> > Would you agree with me that a 'critique' of a poem isn't any kind of
> > formal process, and that it's more or less a stand-in term for critical
> > analysis, which is a formal process (and beyond the abilities of most
> > posters these days)? I realize I'm asking a lot. I was surprised that
> > Cythera's mention of 'explication of the text' fell on deaf eyes when
> > she praised that technique in epiphanaic terms.
> >
>
> I found Cythera to be quite illuminating and helpful when talking
> about what a critique should be or be like (I just never found much of
> that in her own 'critiques' or those of her allies.) I agree that
> there isn't much real critical analysis to be found here (though shaun
> seems to be only one admitting it). I've been called out on that
> myself: for not critiquing ~chit~, for example. But hell, man, a real
> critical analysis would take many days and many drafts; and I'm just
> not gonna do that for something a "Skilled Poet" tossed off in five
> minutes or less.

I think poetry workshops are antithetical to poetry; I think poetry that
isn't performed live is incomplete.
>
> >
> > > > On the one hand there's poetry, on the other there's the boils on one's
> > > > asshole, as Robert Herrick said about his Heperides. And look again at
> > > > The Argument Of His Book:
> >
> > > > I Sing of Brooks, of Blossomes, Birds, and Bowers:
> > > > Of April, May, of June, and July-Flowers.
> > > > I sing of May-poles, Hock-carts, Wassails, Wakes,
> > > > Of Bride-grooms, Brides and of their Bridall-cakes.
> > > > I write of Youth, of Love, and have Accesse
> > > > By these to sing of cleanly-Wantonnesse.
> > > > I sing of Dewes, of Raines, and piece by piece
> > > > Of Balme, of Oyle, of Spice and Amber-Greece.
> > > > I sing of Times trans-shifting, and I write
> > > > How Roses first came Red and Lilies White. [1]
> > > > I write of Groves, of Twilights, and I sing
> > > > The Court of Mab, and of the Fairie-King.
> > > > I write of Hell; I sing (and ever shall)
> > > > Of Heaven, and hope to have it after all. [2]
> >
> > > > [1] I love writers who think of the names of colors as nouns.
> >
> > > > [2] Isn't it cool how Herrick uses 'all' here, definitely not as
> > > > Jonson's noun usage in 'All is not sweet, all is not sound'?
> >
> > > That's a great ending. And a sonnet in heroic couplets is something
> > > I've never seen before, aside from a few bad first sonnets. I also
> > > like how he alternates 'write' and ''sing': imagine how boring it
> > > would've got if he'd stuck to just one.
> >
> > Can you suggest why he employs both 'sing' and 'write' (other than his
> > empathy for your attention span)?
> >
>
> Hey, that's not a minor point. Repetition is one of the most effective
> tools of prosody a poet has; but it's also one of the easiest to
> misuse. And Herrick uses it very well. I'm sure he could have come up
> with a unique verb for every instance -- I chant, talk, tell, scribe,
> blah, blah -- but that would have been awful: it would have ended up
> competing for attention with his wonderful bouquet of nouns.
>
> He uses 'sing' for 'write', I suppose, to make the same point you were
> making earlier, about the affinity between poetry and song.

It's not a 25-words-or-less kind of challenge. And you're putting notes
in my mouth I didn't sing. I wouldn't say something so obvious. I was
trying to say that it's stupid to say songs aren't poetry. I'll say
this: today's true poets are songwriters and singers. Yeah, the
distinction is a purely academic one. The shit that passes today for
poetry isn't poetry. I don't know what it is, but it babbles and uses
words maybe five people know. William Carlos Williams called his stuff
scribblings, I suppose because he was a scientist and humble. I know
you've given a lot of thought to Frost's The Road Not Taken. What's up
with that title? Why is it the poem's title? I know what 'not taken'
means, but he makes me think he doesn't know what it means. Both roads
have been taken; he takes the one less travelled; so, the title would
seem to refer to the road he didn't take. He's fucking nuts is all.
>
> > My first sonnet attempt used rhyming couplets, I didn't think it was
> > bad, bad like my subsequent attempts with the traditional forms, and it
> > was published in my college's annual (exclusive and snooty) literary
> > magazine.
> >
>
> It's the easiest, most basic rhyme scheme, so perhaps it's the one
> that should be essayed first. I'd like to read yours: all I've read
> from you has been from your later period, long after you'd put aside
> formal verse.

The Existential Wind

Can you hear it whistle through the wood
With mystery mostly quite misunderstood?
Or do you hear the rustle of the leaves
Which is the which the scientist believes?
Psychologists and physicists agree
On very little; for example take the tree
That falls when not a single soul's around:
The mind men say there's nothing near a sound.
Sir Isaac's men maintain when something's moved
A noise occurs (although it can't be proved).
But those two lovers lying by that tree,
While in their passion, seem to think they see
Revolving Springs together, Fall to Fall.
Tsk, tsk. They never hear the wind at all.

(The first drafts had the showy-off 'Diurnal' until I changed it to
'Revolving'; for this posting I capitalized 'Springs' and the two
instances of 'Fall'. I was 20.)

Thirty-some years later and new at rap, I composed several sonnets that
exhausted me no end, comparable to the three parts of a serious chess
match. I was determined to compose good sonnet and good poems because I
had written some terrible sonnets before that one up there

The first below is an English sonnet, the second an Italian sonnet - I
want to explain some things mentioned in the second poem, but I realize
that footnotes piss off the intelligent readers, so I won't.

1.

As runners in their youth take shorter strides
Than muscled sprinters who must set the pace,
Which, hastened to its limits, tests and guides,
They need more steps to speed them in the race.
Great singers in debut auditions sing
That first note with its unfamiliar sound
Or know aught of the hall and stage's ring
Until the voice reverberates around.
For storied writers scratching on the page
With streaking ink and passionate ideal,
A second version's craft may well engage
Their readers to whom all of them appeal.
Wherever earthly talent rises fast,
It recognizes greatness that can last.

2.

Holiday encyclopedias
from Dad and Mother 1950 love
a veritable fact-filled treasure trove
like our computers' multimedias.
Alphanumerically bound Incas
with Incandescent Light viewed from above
beyond a shadow of a doubt can prove
they come before Indianapolis.
These World Books covers of a cardinal red
have pebble cloth emblazoned blue that shows
the gilt arrangement of their modern world
in sequenced letters, numbers, as in rows.
Though unremembered Scott Joplin they hurled
from Ragtime while Piltdown Man truly glows.

By any measure, I've been a very successful 'poet', and happily so. But
I would never perform those poems or offer them up except as examples of
'poetry' (upon request) and examples of how my mind can work (a two-word
truncated iambic pentameter line!). Now, they're relics, and I doubt I
could write anything like that again because I can't imagine wanting to
do so. Yet there are formally structured poems from a long time ago that
I think hold up, that aren't relics.
>
> > Obpoint: Are you certain that posting a Usenet poster's poetry (or
> > poem), or commentary, etc., - I'll qualify it - originally posted to
> > aapc and posted later by someone else at aapc can be construed
> > unabsurdly as copyright infringement?
>
> No, I don't; I consider it absurd prima facie. As I see it, posting
> something onto a group is giving anyone else permission to quote it on
> that same group: and there's no statute of limitations on that
> permission. As I've pointed out a few times (as has Will, many a
> time), even those who claim that don't follow it themselves.
>
> > How did such a chilling notion get
> > started, and how did it gain currency? I challenge you to come up with
> > something stupider than that notion; it seems to be part of a general
> > trend here of dwelling on anything except poetry itself (wherever it's
> > found).
> >
>
> I've got my own suspicions. AIUI, the intent of AAPC is to be a
> workshop environment, where the more-skilled poets help the less-
> skilled improve. I see those as completely relative terms -- I'm 'more-
> skilled' wrt to some of the poets here, and 'less skilled' wrt others.
> The only real criteria for telling who is more or less skilled in any
> dialogue is the poets' own work.

The hallowed FAQ notwithstanding, aapc is whatever its current posters
make of it. You post your stuff here, there, and almost everywhere; so
there's no question about your group loyalty, only an obvious answer.
>
> I see this whole 'copyright violation' nonsense as being a way to bury
> that criterion, and substitute a different one: ie, I'm a skilled
> writer because I and the rest of my clique say so: you aren't because
> none of us say so. IOW, 'skilled poet' becomes a vague abstraction
> without any concrete referents (a "floating abstraction," to use Ayn
> Rand's delightfu phrase).

I know, like Twain said about Wagner's music, her stuff is really better
than it sounds. If I were king I would decree that all SUVs, including
minivans, be called Ayn Rands; but real vans would still be called vans
(or trucks if that's what their drivers want to call them).
>
> But what else are you gonna do? How else to keep up the pretence that,
> say, a Barbara's Cat or a jr sherman (or even a ggamble or a PJ, FTM)
> are skilled poets, and therefore worth paying attention to at all,
> except by burying their work?

Huh? I don't wonder about Gary's or Ross's skills - but they're in your
parentheses. Who says Cat of Barbara or Yappy are 'skilled poets'?
They're not even skillful bullies, but they're accomplished and
well-practiced gang-rapists.
>
> Enough of that rant. You've got me wondering why, when I don't believe
> that nonsense myself, am I following it? In particular, why haven't I
> reposted Leisha's original villanelle into this thread myself? There's
> probably no need for that, since Karla did give a link; but I've been
> holding onto an interlinear I did of the two versions, and posting
> that would do much to put the conversation between Karla and me back
> on the rails. So I think I will post that today.

I'm happy to have been of some use.





==============================================================================
TOPIC: Kevin Prufer, acclaimed poet, at Carson McCullers Center Friday
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/d21de70d5eafd9eb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 9:34 am
From: George Dance


On Nov 9, 4:56 pm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 9, 4:46 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 9, 12:04 pm, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > > From Ron Self, local leader of Georgia Poetry Society:
>
> > > Poets and Poetry Fans:
> > >     I thought you might be interested in this forwarded message from
> > > Cathy Fussell, Director of the Carson McCullers Center about poetry
> > > events coming up this Friday.
> > > Ron Self
>
> > > From: Cathy Fussell
> > > Sent: 11/9/2009 10:49:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
> > > Subj: Poetry this Friday
>
> > > CSU's Carson McCullers Center is proud to present acclaimed poet KEVIN
> > > PRUFER in two events scheduled for this coming Friday, November 13,
> > > 2009.  First, at 4:00 PM in the afternoon, Mr. Prufer will lead an
> > > informal discussion of his work at the McCullers House, 1519 Stark
> > > Avenue in Columbus.  Then, in the evening, at 7:30 PM, Mr. Prufer will
> > > give a formal reading of his work, at International House on CSU's
> > > main campus.
>
> > > The public is cordially invited to these free events, sponsored by the
> > > Carson McCullers Center and the Georgia Poetry Circuit.
>
> > > --
> > > Cathy Fussell, Director
> > > CSU's Carson McCullers Center for Writers and Musicians
> > > 1519 Stark Avenue
> > > Columbus, GA  31906http://www.mccullerscenter.org
>
> > > --
> > > "Red Lipped Stranger & other stories" by Will Dockery:http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
>
> > I'd never heard of him, so I googled. I enjoyed his "Death Comes in
> > the Form of a Pontiac Trans Am":
>
> > When I have fears that I may cease to be,
> > I think of death that revs and growls, backfires,
> > stops for none, is cherry red and sleek,
> > eats Honda Civics, coughs, and spits out wires.
>
> > [...] read the rest at
>
> >http://www.poetrymagazine.com/archives/2001/October01/prufer.htm
>
> > (You'll have to scroll down for the poem.)
>
> Yes, from what I've read of him he seems interesting, it'll be good to
> have a chance to meet him... sometimes these guys turn out to be
> cooler than expected and want to see the weirdness of the area,
> sometimes not. Seaborn Jones was my last poet meeting, but I knew he
> was a live-wire before we teamed up, as he also knew about me.
>

So how did that go? Did you get to talk with Prufer?





> --
> "Red Lipped Stranger & other stories" by Will Dockery:http://www.myspace.com/willdockery






==============================================================================
TOPIC: All These Years (Poem)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/a3399ce3060541f4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 11:05 am
From: Olivia


BLACKPOOLJIMMY wrote:
>>> Like it.
>>> Father?
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Husband.
>
>
> Powerful.


Even more thanks!




== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 1:54 pm
From: BLACKPOOLJIMMY


On Nov 20, 2:05�pm, Olivia <t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BLACKPOOLJIMMY wrote:
> >>> Like it.
> >>> Father?
> >> Thank you.
>
> >> Husband.
>
> > Powerful.
>
> Even more thanks!

Have more?




== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 2:57 pm
From: Olivia


BLACKPOOLJIMMY wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2:05�pm, Olivia <t...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> BLACKPOOLJIMMY wrote:
>>>>> Like it.
>>>>> Father?
>>>> Thank you.
>>>> Husband.
>>> Powerful.
>> Even more thanks!
>
> Have more?


I think I'll pass the compliments back to you for
all your very evocative word pictures. So thank you
for those, I enjoyed them.

Olivia




== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 3:01 pm
From: BLACKPOOLJIMMY


On Nov 20, 5:57�pm, Olivia <t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> BLACKPOOLJIMMY wrote:
> > On Nov 20, 2:05 pm, Olivia <t...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> BLACKPOOLJIMMY wrote:
> >>>>> Like it.
> >>>>> Father?
> >>>> Thank you.
> >>>> Husband.
> >>> Powerful.
> >> Even more thanks!
>
> > Have more?
>
> I think I'll pass the compliments back to you for
> all your very evocative word pictures. �So thank you
> for those, I enjoyed them.
>
> Olivia

Thanks Olivia.

Now if the rest of the world could get along like we do...it's all
gravy.

Enjoy.





==============================================================================
TOPIC: MySpace in China
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/705df262315655cd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 2:16 pm
From: Peter J Ross


In rec.arts.poems on Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:03:55 -0800 (PST), Will
Dockery <will.d...@gmail.com> wrote:

> China has
three billion residents who think Will Dockery writes unspeakable
shit.


--
PJR :-)

<http://pjr.lasnobberia.net/verse/>




== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 4:08 pm
From: George Dance


On Nov 20, 5:16 pm, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:
> In rec.arts.poems on Wed, 18 Nov 2009 13:03:55 -0800 (PST), Will
>
> Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > China has
>
> three billion residents

So China's another subject you know nothing about, PJ. You're a
veritable Renaissance ignoramus, aren't you?


> --
> PJR :-)
>
> <http://pjr.lasnobberia.net/verse/>





== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 5:36 pm
From: Will Dockery


On Nov 20, 5:16 pm, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
> writes unspeakable shit.
>
> --
> PJR :-)

Given your example below, PJR, as DMH would write...

> Cerberus never sleeps
>
>    /subridet Cerberus/
>
> between his teeth are heroes' sinews
> and in his midden whole fingers
>
>    /irridet Cerberus/
>
> I recognise a

<snipped PJR junk-poem>

"We know." -Dennis M. Hammes, Litt. D.

--
"Red Lipped Stranger & other stories" by Will Dockery:
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery





==============================================================================
TOPIC: And the Most High has looked upon his times,
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/2164047079c3c9ca?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 3:32 pm
From: Automutt


And the Most High has looked upon his times,
"War has laid low our institutions."

For Cicero said of Caesar.

"War has laid low our institutions."
Empire lost within the impose of peace
Left to wander in the notions of nation


For the low, the forgotten, the no longer the few
We seek to inspire peace and to spare the imposition
Of this decadence within democracy now on display


All wash within the same waves yet
seek the supremacy of self


A frequent delusion locked within the
habit of humility and pride


In Caesar was a man of action;
and one such to make, if not find.


http://automutt.deviantart.com/

Action
It is vain to say human beings ought to be satisfied with
tranquillity:
they must have action; and they will make it if they cannot find it.


George Eliot (1819-1880)
English novelist

*** And the Most High has looked upon his times,
and behold, they are ended, and his ages are completed!
Therefore you will surely disappear, you eagle,
and your terrifying wings, and your most evil little wings,
and your malicious heads, and your most evil talons,
and your whole worthless body, so that the whole earth,
freed from your violence, may be refreshed and
relieved, and may hope for the judgment and
mercy of him who made it.'"
------ 4 Ezra (2 Esdras) - Revised Standard Version (RSV)
Chapter 11, verses 37-46 -----
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
¬¬-------------


Evil little wings are melting...


Waxed the wings of force with fire
for years uncaged in eased desire
to war above as our time now wanes
in playing God through angelic planes
the fire breathing beast has spread
the global doctrine of the dead
upon the evil wings we place
our faith, our future, and our face.
---------------------------------------------------


Therefore you will surely disappear, you eagle,
and your terrifying wings, and your most evil little wings,


Author's Comments
just hate those evil little wings, mainly the jet fighter ones,
The evil little wings can be no other than our jets and such
or our advanced weaponry which has little wings also.


Like Australia needs Joint Strike Fighters, lol

http://automutt.deviantart.com/





==============================================================================
TOPIC: LUNCH
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/t/fec55548ff613a41?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 4:36 pm
From: BLACKPOOLJIMMY


LUNCH

New York
beefsteak rye
blankets
thin sliced
Boar’s Head
bologna
with an Andy Boy
lettuce bed
Ba-Tampte seeded
deli mustard
and complimented
by a Heinz dill
quartered
cole slaw
Diet Coke quencher
and a watery eyed
burp.
Ah, survival!




== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 5:05 pm
From: "=z="


On Nov 20, 7:36 pm, BLACKPOOLJIMMY <Chippandf...@aol.com> wrote:
> LUNCH
>
> New York
> beefsteak rye
> blankets
> thin sliced
> Boar’s Head
> bologna
> with an Andy Boy
> lettuce bed
> Ba-Tampte seeded
> deli mustard
> and complimented
> by a Heinz dill
> quartered
> cole slaw
> Diet Coke quencher
> and a watery eyed
> burp.
> Ah, survival!

Sounds like an afternoon at the Rye Ridge Deli...yum...thanx, now I
have to go make a sandwich...! 8 (




== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Nov 20 2009 5:25 pm
From: BLACKPOOLJIMMY


On Nov 20, 8:05 pm, "=z=" <shull...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 20, 7:36 pm, BLACKPOOLJIMMY <Chippandf...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > LUNCH
>
> > New York
> > beefsteak rye
> > blankets
> > thin sliced
> > Boar’s Head
> > bologna
> > with an Andy Boy
> > lettuce bed
> > Ba-Tampte seeded
> > deli mustard
> > and complimented
> > by a Heinz dill
> > quartered
> > cole slaw
> > Diet Coke quencher
> > and a watery eyed
> > burp.
> > Ah, survival!
>
> Sounds like an afternoon at the Rye Ridge Deli...yum...thanx, now I
> have to go make a sandwich...!   8 (- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It's the simple things in life, =z=




==============================================================================

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "alt.arts.poetry.comments"
group.

To post to this group, visit http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments?hl=en

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to alt.arts.poetry.co...@googlegroups.com

To change the way you get mail from this group, visit:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/subscribe?hl=en

To report abuse, send email explaining the problem to ab...@googlegroups.com

==============================================================================
Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en