Bible Study - The Marriage in Cana

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::: veralein :::

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Jul 29, 2006, 9:52:41 AM7/29/06
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(1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee. Jesus'
mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited, with his disciples, to the
marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus' mother said to him, "They
have no wine." (4) Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do
with you and me? My hour has not yet come." (5) His mother said to the
servants, "Whatever he says to you, do it." (6) Now there were six water
pots of stone set there after the Jews' manner of purifying, containing
two or three metretes apiece. (7) Jesus said to them, "Fill the water
pots with water." They filled them up to the brim. (8) He said to them,
"Now draw some out, and take it to the ruler of the feast." So they took
it. (9) When the ruler of the feast tasted the water now become wine,
and didn't know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the
water knew), the ruler of the feast called the bridegroom, (10) and said
to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when the guests have
drunk freely, then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine
until now!" (11) This beginning of his signs Jesus did in Cana of
Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him. John
2:1-11 WEB

John 1:14 WEB The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his
glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of
grace and truth.

Any serious ideas are appreciated.


::: vera :::

--
___________________________________________________
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::::::: http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de/Israel.htm :::::::
::::::: http://www.e-sword.net :::::::
::::::: http://alpha.org/default.asp :::::::


Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator

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Jul 29, 2006, 1:12:43 PM7/29/06
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::: veralein ::: in <4j17haF...@individual.net>
on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:


> (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.

Third day counted from when?

> Jesus' mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited, with his
> disciples, to the marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus'
> mother said to him, "They have no wine." (4) Jesus said to
> her, "Woman, what does that have to do with you and me? My
> hour has not yet come." (5) His mother said to the servants,
> "Whatever he says to you, do it."

Isn't this interesting, Mary before Jesus got into the action,
told them to follow the instructions Jesus would later give
them? How could she have known that Jesus had some powers?
After all she acted in anticipation that Jesus would do
something special.

Is this the point your getting at?

> (6) Now there were six water pots of stone set there after the
> Jews' manner of purifying, containing two or three metretes
> apiece. (7) Jesus said to them, "Fill the water pots with
> water." They filled them up to the brim. (8) He said to them,
> "Now draw some out, and take it to the ruler of the feast." So
> they took it. (9) When the ruler of the feast tasted the water
> now become wine, and didn't know where it came from (but the
> servants who had drawn the water knew), the ruler of the feast
> called the bridegroom, (10) and said to him, "Everyone serves
> the good wine first, and when the guests have drunk freely,
> then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine until
> now!" (11) This beginning of his signs Jesus did in Cana of
> Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in
> him. John 2:1-11 WEB

So this was Jesus *first* sign, and yet before he performed it
Mary could give instructions...

>
> John 1:14 WEB The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We
> saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the
> Father, full of grace and truth.
>
> Any serious ideas are appreciated.
>
>
> ::: vera :::
>

BTW do you get some kick-backs for advertising?

Werner Kurator
--
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"

Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible

August 1983......

==============================================================

"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."

Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================
Building a computer that could instantly recalculate artillery tables
into the gun itself was a gleam in the eye of the early designers.
(Today, of course, we can build those computers into the "shells"
themselves.) -- Mark Atwood in RASFW

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Jul 29, 2006, 1:43:49 PM7/29/06
to
Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator wrote:
> ::: veralein ::: in <4j17haF...@individual.net>
> on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
>
> > (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.
>
> Third day counted from when?

When John witnessed that the Holy Spirit had come down from heaven to
settle on LORD Jesus Christ and gave the following testimony:

"I saw the Spirit come down from hevaen as a dove and remain on HIM. I
would not have known HIM, except that the ONE who sent me to baptize
with water told me, 'The Man on whom you see the Spirit come down and
remain is HE who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' I have seen and I
testify that this is the Son of GOD." (John 1:32-34)

> > Jesus' mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited, with his
> > disciples, to the marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus'
> > mother said to him, "They have no wine." (4) Jesus said to
> > her, "Woman, what does that have to do with you and me? My
> > hour has not yet come." (5) His mother said to the servants,
> > "Whatever he says to you, do it."
>
> Isn't this interesting, Mary before Jesus got into the action,
> told them to follow the instructions Jesus would later give
> them? How could she have known that Jesus had some powers?

The Holy Spirit gave her that knowledge.

> After all she acted in anticipation that Jesus would do
> something special.
>
> Is this the point your getting at?

Possibly.

> > (6) Now there were six water pots of stone set there after the
> > Jews' manner of purifying, containing two or three metretes
> > apiece. (7) Jesus said to them, "Fill the water pots with
> > water." They filled them up to the brim. (8) He said to them,
> > "Now draw some out, and take it to the ruler of the feast." So
> > they took it. (9) When the ruler of the feast tasted the water
> > now become wine, and didn't know where it came from (but the
> > servants who had drawn the water knew), the ruler of the feast
> > called the bridegroom, (10) and said to him, "Everyone serves
> > the good wine first, and when the guests have drunk freely,
> > then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine until
> > now!" (11) This beginning of his signs Jesus did in Cana of
> > Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in
> > him. John 2:1-11 WEB
>
> So this was Jesus *first* sign, and yet before he performed it
> Mary could give instructions...

Such is the power and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


> > John 1:14 WEB The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We
> > saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the
> > Father, full of grace and truth.
> >
> > Any serious ideas are appreciated.
> >
> >
> > ::: vera :::
> >
>
> BTW do you get some kick-backs for advertising?

Vera's rewards are being stored up for her in heaven where they will
neither corrode or fade and where there will be no thieves around to
steal them.

Still praying for you, dear neighbor Werner.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

Message for the wolves in sheepskin:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4f43855be1cfa795?
or
http://tinyurl.com/povfe (awaiting the continued frantic foot-stomping
antics of the anti-christ)

Message for my brethren:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/7bff7f0b57577900?
or
http://tinyurl.com/ng62u (expecting the anti-christ to eventually have
a coronary here)

Message for the anti-christ, who serves satan:
LORD GOD Almighty is the Source of all intelligence, which clearly HE
has dialed down in your case since you seem unable to realize that HE
has given me the stamina to outlast you.

Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator

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Jul 29, 2006, 3:06:21 PM7/29/06
to
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
in <1154195029.7...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>
on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
> Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator wrote:
>> ::: veralein ::: in <4j17haF...@individual.net>
>> on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
>>

>> > (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.
>>
>> Third day counted from when?
>
> When John witnessed that the Holy Spirit had come down from
> heaven to settle on LORD Jesus Christ and gave the following
> testimony:
>
> "I saw the Spirit come down from hevaen as a dove and remain
> on HIM. I would not have known HIM, except that the ONE who
> sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The Man on whom you
> see the Spirit come down and remain is HE who will baptize
> with the Holy Spirit.' I have seen and I testify that this is
> the Son of GOD." (John 1:32-34)

Ahem Andrew :-)

Mark 1

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the
heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon
him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of
Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered
unto him.

Andrew, you run with full speed into the open knife, like I
suspected somebody would do. In fact the Gospel of John is the
least *trustworthy* when it comes to the times *when* events
took place... Notice that at the wedding at Cana Jesus already
had his disciples there, so it must have been more then 40 days
after Jesus was baptized...

So by all accounts this would have been more then 40 days
later... at least *43* :-) Maybe some translating error along
the way crept in.... :-(

Speaking about the Holy Spirit.....

About John the Baptist:

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and
shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be
filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

This is John *speaking* :

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made
manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Now Andrew was John at that time no longer filled with the Holy
Ghost, that John/t/Baptist didn't know *WHO* Christ was?

<grin from ear to ear>

30 years starting even in the womb, prior to his start of his
mission John was supposedly filled with the "Holy Spirit" and
yet he didn't know Christ, and *NEEDED A SIGN* from heaven...

<bigger grin>

>
>> > Jesus' mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited, with
>> > his disciples, to the marriage. (3) When the wine ran out,
>> > Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no wine." (4) Jesus
>> > said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with you and
>> > me? My hour has not yet come." (5) His mother said to the
>> > servants, "Whatever he says to you, do it."
>>
>> Isn't this interesting, Mary before Jesus got into the
>> action, told them to follow the instructions Jesus would
>> later give them? How could she have known that Jesus had some
>> powers?
>
> The Holy Spirit gave her that knowledge.

Yet John didn't know who Christ was.....

>
>> After all she acted in anticipation that Jesus would do
>> something special.
>>
>> Is this the point your getting at?
>
> Possibly.
>

<cut John 2:1-11 WEB>

>>
>> So this was Jesus *first* sign, and yet before he performed
>> it Mary could give instructions...
>
> Such is the power and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Yet John/t/Baptist didn't know who Christ, in spite filled with
the Holy Spirit? So that God had to sent his spirit....

:-)

>
>

Werner Kurator
--
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"

Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible

August 1983......

==============================================================

"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."

Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================

Death twitches my ear. "Live," he says, "I am coming."
-Virgil

::: veralein :::

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Jul 29, 2006, 4:02:13 PM7/29/06
to
In news:slrnecncdd...@peace-with.all,
Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator <wer...@peace-with.all> typed:

And I wonder who is holding it... LOL

> like I suspected somebody would do.

So what is leading you?


::: vera :::

><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
"Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it
will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks
finds. To him who knocks it will be opened."
(Matthew 7:7-8 WEB)

Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator

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Jul 29, 2006, 4:55:40 PM7/29/06
to
::: veralein ::: in <4j1t66F...@individual.net>

<sheepish grin>

I hope somebody could give me a better comparison, as I really
feel this was kind too harsh, as indeed I have nothing against
anybody here. I just used a German expression I got used to for
years, since I was a teenager...

>
>> like I suspected somebody would do.
>
> So what is leading you?

God the Holy Spirit and even Jesus, if you really want to know
:-)

>
>
> ::: vera :::
>
>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
> "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it
> will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks
> finds. To him who knocks it will be opened."
> (Matthew 7:7-8 WEB)
><>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
> --

^^^^^^^
please move the first hyphen one place to the left and have the
*empty* space on the right....

|-- | <--this will look then so
^^^^^^ <- after the empty space, hit return to start a new
line....

and then in a test-group you can check if this is working, to
cut the sig... :-)

>
>

Werner Kurator
--
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"

Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible

August 1983......

==============================================================

"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."

Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================

"My pessimism extends to the point of even suspecting the sincerity
of the pessimists." -- Jean Rostand, 1931

::: veralein :::

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Jul 29, 2006, 5:17:22 PM7/29/06
to
In news:4j17haF...@individual.net,
::: veralein ::: <vera...@lycos.com> typed:

John 2:1-11 WEB

> (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee. Jesus'
> mother was there.

The third day might be the third day after Jesus' baptism, or the third
day on their way to Galilee - with reference to John 1:43 (WEB) "On the
next day, he was determined to go out into Galilee, and he found Philip.
Jesus said to him, "Follow me.""

> (2) Jesus also was invited, with his disciples, to
> the marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus' mother said to him,
> "They have no wine."

Mary did not say, "Go and do and miracle", he just said they had no
vine. Yet He knew what she thought, while she must have known that He
could do a miracle.

> (4) Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does that
> have to do with you and me? My hour has not yet come."

Jesus called his mother "woman", which was not to express anger, but
seems to be the usual way - see there:
Therefore when Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved
standing there, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son!" (John
19:26 WEB)

"My hour has not yet come." Jesus knew what He had to go through. It was
no mistake here, He perfectly knew when His hour would be there:

Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said,
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may also
glorify you (John 17:1 WEB)

So He was talking of the time of Him being glorified.

> (5) His mother
> said to the servants, "Whatever he says to you, do it."

Though Mary had incited Jesus to do the miracle, she gives Him full
authority there.

His will should be done! Then watch the miracle happen.

> (6) Now there
> were six water pots of stone set there after the Jews' manner of
> purifying, containing two or three metretes apiece.

I have heard the pots contained 600 litres of water!

> (7) Jesus said to
> them, "Fill the water pots with water." They filled them up to the
> brim.

Interesting, they did not ask why, they just did what He told them.

> (8) He said to them, "Now draw some out, and take it to the
> ruler of the feast." So they took it.

They still did not ask why...

> (9) When the ruler of the feast
> tasted the water now become wine, and didn't know where it came from
> (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the ruler of the
> feast called the bridegroom, (10) and said to him, "Everyone serves
> the good wine first, and when the guests have drunk freely, then that
> which is worse. You have kept the good wine until now!"

Jesus does not simply deliver some vine, but the very best! We, too, can
reckon with that. When we ask Him and do what He says, he will give to
us the BEST He has to give us. And not just the BEST, but also IN
ABUNDANCE! 600 litres of vine were not really needed at the end of the
celebration time anymore.

> (11) This
> beginning of his signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his
> glory; and his disciples believed in him.

> John 1:14 WEB The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his
> glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of
> grace and truth.

The Word became flesh... the miracle of making wine out of water is the
first sign of Jesus' glory. Many other miracles were to follow; not all
of them are mentioned in the Gospel of John. The marriage in Cana was
the beginning of the Kingdom of God.

But there is much more to it. Jesus glorification showing in His
miracles is started by a wedding celebration where Jesus gives to the
people all that they are lacking. His story with us believers will also
end with a wedding celebration when He will marry His bride, the New
Jerusalem with all who are inside:

I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
made ready like a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:2 WEB)

We can reckon with the very best in abundance from Him for this
celebration.

We can also find out that the miracles that Jesus does do usually not
take place on a stage. Only His mother and the servants and Disciples
knew where the vine came from. He did not boast with what He did.
Miracles today happen similarly. They can be found in a new-born baby.
They can be found in a doctor's voice who says, "You are healed". They
can be found in the voices of some survivors of a plane crash that say,
"We are saved". And they can be found in the husband's kiss on his
wife's cheek and her wispering "I love you" after they had not talked
for ages.

Many miracles still happen today. Very often people might have prayed
for them. But the Lord will listen to the prayers of those who do not
boast with the miracles He has done. They happen in secret, yet for all
to see - like the water becoming vine in Cana.

Like water becoming vine, people like you and me become believers,
another miracle done by Him every day.

Jesus can change everything! He can change people, and sad hearts into a
container of joy in abundance.

He can change water into vine, and darkness into light.

He can do miracles. He can!


::: vera :::

><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
"Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it
will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks
finds. To him who knocks it will be opened." (Matthew 7:7-8 WEB)
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><

Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator

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Jul 29, 2006, 5:39:54 PM7/29/06
to
::: veralein ::: in <4j21j3F...@individual.net>
on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
> In news:4j17haF...@individual.net,
> ::: veralein ::: <vera...@lycos.com> typed:
>
> John 2:1-11 WEB
>
>> (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee. Jesus'
>> mother was there.
>
> The third day might be the third day after Jesus' baptism, or the third
> day on their way to Galilee - with reference to John 1:43 (WEB) "On the

Vera if you read my reply to Andrew then you would find a few
important points raised by me.

Mark 1

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the
heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon
him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my
beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of
Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered
unto him.

> next day, he was determined to go out into Galilee, and he


> found Philip. Jesus said to him, "Follow me.""
>
>> (2) Jesus also was invited, with his disciples, to the
>> marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus' mother said to
>> him, "They have no wine."

So he had already the disciples with him...

<CUT>

> He can change water into vine, and darkness into light.

I can change darkness into light too, just flip the light-switch
:-)

>
> He can do miracles. He can!

And he said his followers could do even *greater* works, then
him now Vera Vera *what* would that be?

>
>
> ::: vera :::
>
>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
> "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find.
> Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks
> receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be
> opened." (Matthew 7:7-8 WEB)
><>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
>
>

Werner Kurator
--
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"

Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible

August 1983......

==============================================================

"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."

Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================

I haven't been sick a day since I was a child. A steady diet of cigars and
whiskey cured me. - W. C. Fields

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

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Jul 29, 2006, 5:57:41 PM7/29/06
to
Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator wrote:
> Andrew wrote:
> > Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator wrote:
> >> ::: veralein ::: wrote:
>
> >> > (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee.
> >>
> >> Third day counted from when?
> >
> > When John witnessed that the Holy Spirit had come down from
> > heaven to settle on LORD Jesus Christ and gave the following
> > testimony:
> >
> > "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain

> > on HIM. I would not have known HIM, except that the ONE who
> > sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The Man on whom you
> > see the Spirit come down and remain is HE who will baptize
> > with the Holy Spirit.' I have seen and I testify that this is
> > the Son of GOD." (John 1:32-34)
>
> Ahem Andrew :-)

Watch and wonder, Werner.

Don't blink.

GOD is amazing :-)

Laus Deo !

> Mark 1
>
> 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the
> heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon
> him:
>
> 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my
> beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
>
> 12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
>
> 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of
> Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered
> unto him.
>
> Andrew, you run with full speed into the open knife, like I
> suspected somebody would do.

Thankfully, GOD has given me HIS armor. Your open knife has been
shattered to bits as if it were an icicle that has found itself in 110
degrees ambient temp.

> In fact the Gospel of John is the
> least *trustworthy* when it comes to the times *when* events
> took place... Notice that at the wedding at Cana Jesus already
> had his disciples there, so it must have been more then 40 days
> after Jesus was baptized...

Indeed, It was more than 40 days after Jesus' baptism with water by
John the Baptist but only three days after the public testimony by John
the Baptist concerning Jesus' divinity. The Holy Spirit guides me to
write that John the Baptist was compelled by HIM not to make the public
testimony until **after** Jesus resisted satan's temptations **after**
fasting for 40 days and nights in the desert. Moreover, the Holy
Spirit led John to leave out of his public testimony his role in
baptizing Jesus with water and HIS temptation by satan in the desert
because these detracted from the message that Jesus is the divine Son
of GOD.

> So by all accounts this would have been more then 40 days
> later... at least *43* :-)

Correct.

> Maybe some translating error along
> the way crept in.... :-(

No. The error is one of misinterpretation on your part which
invariably happens when folks are trying to understand the Bible
without the counsel of the Holy Spirit.

> Speaking about the Holy Spirit.....
>
> About John the Baptist:
>
> Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and
> shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be
> filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
>
> This is John *speaking* :
>
> John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made
> manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
>
> Now Andrew was John at that time no longer filled with the Holy
> Ghost, that John/t/Baptist didn't know *WHO* Christ was?

The Holy Ghost is not an ability conferred upon folks but GOD Himself.
It is written that GOD may choose to hide from us, covering us with HIS
hand as HE passes by so that we don't see HIS face.

> <grin from ear to ear>

I suspect you are no longer grinning now that you have learned
something that you know could have only come from the Holy Spirit.

> 30 years starting even in the womb, prior to his start of his
> mission John was supposedly filled with the "Holy Spirit" and
> yet he didn't know Christ, and *NEEDED A SIGN* from heaven...

It is clear that you don't recognize that the Holy Spirit is GOD.
Being filled with the Holy Spirit does not mean we are given omniscent
minds but discerning hearts so that we may be guided by HIM and not
stray from HIS infinite will. Through the Holy Spirit, we know what HE
deems we need to know and not what we think we need to know.

> <bigger grin>

It is my hope that your grinning is now arising from a discerning heart
rather than from a wicked mind.

> >> > Jesus' mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited, with
> >> > his disciples, to the marriage. (3) When the wine ran out,
> >> > Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no wine." (4) Jesus
> >> > said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with you and
> >> > me? My hour has not yet come." (5) His mother said to the
> >> > servants, "Whatever he says to you, do it."
> >>
> >> Isn't this interesting, Mary before Jesus got into the
> >> action, told them to follow the instructions Jesus would
> >> later give them? How could she have known that Jesus had some
> >> powers?
> >
> > The Holy Spirit gave her that knowledge.
>
> Yet John didn't know who Christ was.....

GOD's choice.

> >> After all she acted in anticipation that Jesus would do
> >> something special.
> >>
> >> Is this the point your getting at?
> >
> > Possibly.
> >
>
> <cut John 2:1-11 WEB>
>
> >>
> >> So this was Jesus *first* sign, and yet before he performed
> >> it Mary could give instructions...
> >
> > Such is the power and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
>
> Yet John/t/Baptist didn't know who Christ, in spite filled with
> the Holy Spirit? So that God had to sent his spirit....
>
> :-)

See above.

Still praying for you, dear agnostic neighbor Werner.

::: veralein :::

unread,
Jul 29, 2006, 8:57:24 PM7/29/06
to
In news:slrnecnlda...@peace-with.all,
Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator <wer...@peace-with.all> typed:

>>>> veralein ::: in <4j21j3F...@individual.net>
> on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
>> In news:4j17haF...@individual.net,
>>>>> veralein ::: <vera...@lycos.com> typed:
>>
>> John 2:1-11 WEB
>>
>>> (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee. Jesus'
>>> mother was there.
>>
>> The third day might be the third day after Jesus' baptism, or the
>> third day on their way to Galilee - with reference to John 1:43
>> (WEB) "On the
>
> Vera if you read my reply to Andrew then you would find a few
> important points raised by me.

Werner,

you will find that Andrew has answered you very well already.

> Mark 1
>
> 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the
> heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon
> him:
>
> 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my
> beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
>
> 12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.
>
> 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of
> Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered
> unto him.
>
>
>
>> next day, he was determined to go out into Galilee, and he
>> found Philip. Jesus said to him, "Follow me.""
>>
>>> (2) Jesus also was invited, with his disciples, to the
>>> marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus' mother said to
>>> him, "They have no wine."
>
> So he had already the disciples with him...

So what is your point? Of course He had.

>
> <CUT>
>
>> He can change water into vine, and darkness into light.
>
> I can change darkness into light too, just flip the light-switch
> :-)

Yeah, you sound more and more like Mark Tindall.

And maybe the invention of the light-switch was one of the miracles done
in secret...

In fact, life is a miracle.

>
>>
>> He can do miracles. He can!
>
> And he said his followers could do even *greater* works, then
> him now Vera Vera *what* would that be?
>
>>
>>
>> ::: vera :::
>>
>>> <> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>> "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find.
>> Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks
>> receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be
>> opened." (Matthew 7:7-8 WEB)
>> <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
>>
>>
>
>
> Werner Kurator


::: vera :::


Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: God was revealed
in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among
the nations, Believed on in the world, And received up in glory. (1
Timothy 3:16 WEB)

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Jul 29, 2006, 9:13:16 PM7/29/06
to
::: veralein ::: wrote:
> In news:slrnecnlda...@peace-with.all,
> Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator <wer...@peace-with.all> typed:
> >>>> veralein ::: in <4j21j3F...@individual.net>
> > on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
> >> In news:4j17haF...@individual.net,
> >>>>> veralein ::: <vera...@lycos.com> typed:
> >>
> >> John 2:1-11 WEB
> >>
> >>> (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee. Jesus'
> >>> mother was there.
> >>
> >> The third day might be the third day after Jesus' baptism, or the
> >> third day on their way to Galilee - with reference to John 1:43
> >> (WEB) "On the
> >
> > Vera if you read my reply to Andrew then you would find a few
> > important points raised by me.
>
> Werner,
>
> you will find that Andrew has answered you very well already.

The answers came not from me but from the Holy Spirit.

Laus Deo !

Marana tha !

Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator

unread,
Jul 30, 2006, 10:56:22 AM7/30/06
to
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
in <1154210261....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:

So Andrew thinks that Jesus found his disciples in the
time-span of "three" days. As at the wedding Jesus had already
his disciples with him....

<SNIP>

>> Speaking about the Holy Spirit.....
>>
>> About John the Baptist:
>>
>> Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and
>> shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be
>> filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
>>
>> This is John *speaking* :
>>
>> John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made
>> manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
>>
>> Now Andrew was John at that time no longer filled with the
>> Holy Ghost, that John/t/Baptist didn't know *WHO* Christ was?
>
> The Holy Ghost is not an ability conferred upon folks but GOD
> Himself. It is written that GOD may choose to hide from us,
> covering us with HIS hand as HE passes by so that we don't see
> HIS face.

Moses at the time he supposedly received the tablets of stone,
but I stray...

>
>> <grin from ear to ear>
>

Luke 2

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was
Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the
consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he
should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the
parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the
custom of the law,

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: But
holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Now here is a instance in which the *Holy Spirit* reveals the
identity of Christ to a person who would not be around 30 years
later... Was it done just that 2000 years later we have a nice
story to tell...

> I suspect you are no longer grinning now that you have learned
> something that you know could have only come from the Holy Spirit.

If I could be grinning wider, I would :-)

>
>> 30 years starting even in the womb, prior to his start of his
>> mission John was supposedly filled with the "Holy Spirit" and
>> yet he didn't know Christ, and *NEEDED A SIGN* from heaven...
>
> It is clear that you don't recognize that the Holy Spirit is
> GOD. Being filled with the Holy Spirit does not mean we are
> given omniscent minds but discerning hearts so that we may be
> guided by HIM and not stray from HIS infinite will. Through
> the Holy Spirit, we know what HE deems we need to know and not
> what we think we need to know.

Lets not loose the focus, Andrew I am not talking about us, I'm
talking about John/t/Baptist *NOT* knowing who Christ is, and
that he needed a sign.

Where was the discerning heart, for John did NOT KNOW Christ.
Yet his Job was to reveal the identity of Christ to all of
Israel. Without a sign from heaven he still didn't know who the
Messiah was, keep in mind that they were *relatives*, and I'm
sure as such he must have known Jesus....

Matthew 11

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ,
he sent two of his disciples,

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we
look for another?

4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again
those things which ye do hear and see:

>
>> <bigger grin>
>
> It is my hope that your grinning is now arising from a discerning heart
> rather than from a wicked mind.

That you think bad about people Andrew....

>
>> >> > Jesus' mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited, with
>> >> > his disciples, to the marriage. (3) When the wine ran out,
>> >> > Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no wine." (4) Jesus
>> >> > said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with you and
>> >> > me? My hour has not yet come." (5) His mother said to the
>> >> > servants, "Whatever he says to you, do it."
>> >>
>> >> Isn't this interesting, Mary before Jesus got into the
>> >> action, told them to follow the instructions Jesus would
>> >> later give them? How could she have known that Jesus had some
>> >> powers?
>> >
>> > The Holy Spirit gave her that knowledge.
>>
>> Yet John didn't know who Christ was.....
>
> GOD's choice.

Hilarious, Andrew is this the best you can come up with?

Matthew 11

7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes
concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see?
A reed shaken with the wind?

8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft
raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings'
houses.

9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto
you, and more than a prophet.

10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my
messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before
thee.

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women
there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist:
notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is
greater than he.

Above Jesus tells the listeners that John was a prophet, now
what was the *greatest* prophetic message John could have spread:

"Listen Oh Israel, the Messiah is here". But if one reads the
Gospel of John, then he *testified* to Jesus one time.

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom
of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by
force.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to
come.

Yet John denied being it. (John 1:19-21

<cut Andrew's self-serving links>

Werner Kurator

===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"

Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible

August 1983......

==============================================================

"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."

Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================

--
> Because people don't get involved with the occult/magic/astrology to
> *explain* the universe, they get involved to *control* the universe.
So your saying it's not pseudo-Science, it's pseudo-Engineering?
- pedro and Ross

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Jul 30, 2006, 6:17:55 PM7/30/06
to
Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator wrote:
>
> So Andrew thinks that Jesus found his disciples in the
> time-span of "three" days.

Incorrect. The knowledge given to me by the Holy Spirit are not my
thoughts on this matter.

Day one: Andrew, Simon Peter, James the son of Zebedee and John.
Day two: Philip and Nathaniel.
Day three: The wedding.

> As at the wedding Jesus had already his disciples with him....

Correct. HE had 6 disciples with HIM. THEY were 7 in all. This serves
to remind us that GOD has seven spirits as HE later reveals in
Revelation. However, it was not until some days *after* the wedding
that HE chose HIS twelve apostles from HIS gathering of disciples (Luke
6:12-16)

> <SNIP>
>
> >> Speaking about the Holy Spirit.....
> >>
> >> About John the Baptist:
> >>
> >> Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and
> >> shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be
> >> filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
> >>
> >> This is John *speaking* :
> >>
> >> John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made
> >> manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
> >>
> >> Now Andrew was John at that time no longer filled with the
> >> Holy Ghost, that John/t/Baptist didn't know *WHO* Christ was?

> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD


> in <1154210261....@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:

> > The Holy Ghost is not an ability conferred upon folks but GOD


> > Himself. It is written that GOD may choose to hide from us,
> > covering us with HIS hand as HE passes by so that we don't see
> > HIS face.
>
> Moses at the time he supposedly received the tablets of stone,
> but I stray...

Yes, you stray whenever you doubt HIS Word as indicated by your use of
"supposedly."

> >> <grin from ear to ear>
>
> Luke 2
>
> 25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was
> Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the
> consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
>
> 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he
> should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
>
> 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the
> parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the
> custom of the law,
>
> 2 Peter 1:21
> For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: But
> holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
>
> Now here is a instance in which the *Holy Spirit* reveals the
> identity of Christ to a person who would not be around 30 years
> later... Was it done just that 2000 years later we have a nice
> story to tell...

It was done to reveal that the Holy Spirit is GOD and chooses to reveal
things to whomever HE pleases.

> > I suspect you are no longer grinning now that you have learned
> > something that you know could have only come from the Holy Spirit.
>
> If I could be grinning wider, I would :-)

That is not what I discern.

> >> 30 years starting even in the womb, prior to his start of his
> >> mission John was supposedly filled with the "Holy Spirit" and
> >> yet he didn't know Christ, and *NEEDED A SIGN* from heaven...
> >
> > It is clear that you don't recognize that the Holy Spirit is
> > GOD. Being filled with the Holy Spirit does not mean we are
> > given omniscent minds but discerning hearts so that we may be
> > guided by HIM and not stray from HIS infinite will. Through
> > the Holy Spirit, we know what HE deems we need to know and not
> > what we think we need to know.
>
> Lets not loose the focus, Andrew I am not talking about us, I'm
> talking about John/t/Baptist *NOT* knowing who Christ is, and
> that he needed a sign.

John the Baptist knew only that which the Holy Spirit deemed he needed
to know and not what you think he needed to know.

> Where was the discerning heart, for John did NOT KNOW Christ.

Discernment is not knowledge.

> Yet his Job was to reveal the identity of Christ to all of
> Israel.

... in the manner that is accordance with GOD's infinite will.

> Without a sign from heaven he still didn't know who the
> Messiah was, keep in mind that they were *relatives*, and I'm
> sure as such he must have known Jesus....

GOD has the power to hide HIS identity from others including those
closest to HIM.

> Matthew 11
>
> 2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ,
> he sent two of his disciples,
>
> 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we
> look for another?
>
> 4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again
> those things which ye do hear and see:

John the Baptist was human in his doubt especially during his own
trials and tribulations.

> >> <bigger grin>
> >
> > It is my hope that your grinning is now arising from a discerning heart
> > rather than from a wicked mind.
>
> That you think bad about people Andrew....

It remains my choice to not judge others even when I see their
wickedness.

> >
> >> >> > Jesus' mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited, with
> >> >> > his disciples, to the marriage. (3) When the wine ran out,
> >> >> > Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no wine." (4) Jesus
> >> >> > said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with you and
> >> >> > me? My hour has not yet come." (5) His mother said to the
> >> >> > servants, "Whatever he says to you, do it."
> >> >>
> >> >> Isn't this interesting, Mary before Jesus got into the
> >> >> action, told them to follow the instructions Jesus would
> >> >> later give them? How could she have known that Jesus had some
> >> >> powers?
> >> >
> >> > The Holy Spirit gave her that knowledge.
> >>
> >> Yet John didn't know who Christ was.....
> >
> > GOD's choice.
>
> Hilarious, Andrew is this the best you can come up with?

See above.

That was John's choice.

Still praying for you, dear neighbor Werner.

::: veralein :::

unread,
Jul 31, 2006, 8:15:20 AM7/31/06
to
In news:1154221996....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com,
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD <and...@heartmdphd.com> typed:

>>>> veralein ::: wrote:
>> In news:slrnecnlda...@peace-with.all,
>> Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator <wer...@peace-with.all>
>> typed:
>>>>>> veralein ::: in <4j21j3F...@individual.net>
>>> on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
>>>> In news:4j17haF...@individual.net,
>>>>>>> veralein ::: <vera...@lycos.com> typed:
>>>>
>>>> John 2:1-11 WEB
>>>>
>>>>> (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee. Jesus'
>>>>> mother was there.
>>>>
>>>> The third day might be the third day after Jesus' baptism, or the
>>>> third day on their way to Galilee - with reference to John 1:43
>>>> (WEB) "On the
>>>
>>> Vera if you read my reply to Andrew then you would find a few
>>> important points raised by me.
>>
>> Werner,
>>
>> you will find that Andrew has answered you very well already.
>
> The answers came not from me but from the Holy Spirit.

Thanks a lot!

>
> Laus Deo !
>
> Marana tha !
>
> Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,
>
> Andrew B. Chung
> Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
> http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit
>
> Message for the wolves in sheepskin:
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4f43855be1cfa795?
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/povfe (awaiting the continued frantic foot-stomping
> antics of the anti-christ)
>
> Message for my brethren:
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/7bff7f0b57577900?
> or
> http://tinyurl.com/ng62u (expecting the anti-christ to eventually have
> a coronary here)
>
> Message for the anti-christ, who serves satan:
> LORD GOD Almighty is the Source of all intelligence, which clearly HE
> has dialed down in your case since you seem unable to realize that HE
> has given me the stamina to outlast you.

::: vera :::

><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Revelation 22:17 WEB The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" He who hears,
let him say, "Come!" He who is thirsty, let him come. He who desires,
let him take the water of life freely.

Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Jul 31, 2006, 5:41:42 PM7/31/06
to
::: veralein ::: wrote:
> In news:1154221996....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com,
> Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD <and...@heartmdphd.com> typed:
> >>>> veralein ::: wrote:
> >> In news:slrnecnlda...@peace-with.all,
> >> Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator <wer...@peace-with.all>
> >> typed:
> >>>>>> veralein ::: in <4j21j3F...@individual.net>
> >>> on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
> >>>> In news:4j17haF...@individual.net,
> >>>>>>> veralein ::: <vera...@lycos.com> typed:
> >>>>
> >>>> John 2:1-11 WEB
> >>>>
> >>>>> (1) The third day, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee. Jesus'
> >>>>> mother was there.
> >>>>
> >>>> The third day might be the third day after Jesus' baptism, or the
> >>>> third day on their way to Galilee - with reference to John 1:43
> >>>> (WEB) "On the
> >>>
> >>> Vera if you read my reply to Andrew then you would find a few
> >>> important points raised by me.
> >>
> >> Werner,
> >>
> >> you will find that Andrew has answered you very well already.
> >
> > The answers came not from me but from the Holy Spirit.
>
> Thanks a lot!

The Holy Spirit welcomes your thanks and praises.

May HE continue to bless you, dear sister Vera whom I love, in Jesus'
most precious and holy name.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

Messages for the wolves in sheepskin:


http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4f43855be1cfa795?
or
http://tinyurl.com/povfe (awaiting the continued frantic foot-stomping
antics of the anti-christ)

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/46204a10b967b1a1?
or
http://tinyurl.com/mm58k (awaiting the bluster of the anti-christ)

Message for my brethren (there is unity in the Holy Spirit):


http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/7bff7f0b57577900?
or
http://tinyurl.com/ng62u (expecting the anti-christ to eventually have
a coronary here)

Message for the agnostics, who are automatically without the Holy
Spirit:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.christnet.christianlife/msg/3682d1982b5c0a09?
or
http://tinyurl.com/nvhoe (expecting the anti-christ to suffer a cardiac
arrest here)

Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator

unread,
Aug 2, 2006, 10:49:46 AM8/2/06
to
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
in <1154297875.3...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
on 2006-07-30 announced this statement:

> Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator wrote:
>>
>> So Andrew thinks that Jesus found his disciples in the
>> time-span of "three" days.
>
> Incorrect. The knowledge given to me by the Holy Spirit are not my
> thoughts on this matter.
>
> Day one: Andrew, Simon Peter, James the son of Zebedee and John.
> Day two: Philip and Nathaniel.
> Day three: The wedding.
>
>> As at the wedding Jesus had already his disciples with him....
>
> Correct. HE had 6 disciples with HIM. THEY were 7 in all. This serves
> to remind us that GOD has seven spirits as HE later reveals in
> Revelation. However, it was not until some days *after* the wedding
> that HE chose HIS twelve apostles from HIS gathering of disciples (Luke
> 6:12-16)

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed
him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

Matthew 4

18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren,
Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into
the sea: for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you
fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

Here Jesus finds them *HIMSELF* while walking at the sea.... no
John the Baptist present....

John 2

12 After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother,
and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there
not many days.

13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to
Jerusalem,

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and
doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove
them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and
poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

So now you will tell me Jesus cleared the Temple *TWICE*; once at
the beginning and once at the end of his public ministry?
Because the synoptic Gospels have it all at the *END* before
Jesus is crucified.

<big grin> You are so funny.

Acts 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of
angels, and have not kept it.

I guess Stephen was mistaken...

>
>> >> <grin from ear to ear>
>>
>> Luke 2
>>
>> 25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name
>> was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting
>> for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon
>> him.
>>
>> 26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he
>> should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
>>
>> 27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the
>> parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the
>> custom of the law,
>>
>> 2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the
>> will of man: But holy men of God spoke as they were moved by
>> the Holy Ghost.
>>
>> Now here is a instance in which the *Holy Spirit* reveals the
>> identity of Christ to a person who would not be around 30
>> years later... Was it done just that 2000 years later we have
>> a nice story to tell...
>
> It was done to reveal that the Holy Spirit is GOD and chooses
> to reveal things to whomever HE pleases.

So that this this man should take his knowledge that Jesus was the
Messiah with him into the *GRAVE*?

>
>> > I suspect you are no longer grinning now that you have
>> > learned something that you know could have only come from
>> > the Holy Spirit.
>>
>> If I could be grinning wider, I would :-)
>
> That is not what I discern.

LOL

(now will you answer "silent laughter is despair" or some such
nonsense....)

>
>> >> 30 years starting even in the womb, prior to his start of
>> >> his mission John was supposedly filled with the "Holy
>> >> Spirit" and yet he didn't know Christ, and *NEEDED A SIGN*
>> >> from heaven...
>> >
>> > It is clear that you don't recognize that the Holy Spirit
>> > is GOD. Being filled with the Holy Spirit does not mean we
>> > are given omniscent minds but discerning hearts so that we
>> > may be guided by HIM and not stray from HIS infinite will.
>> > Through the Holy Spirit, we know what HE deems we need to
>> > know and not what we think we need to know.
>>
>> Lets not loose the focus, Andrew I am not talking about us,
>> I'm talking about John/t/Baptist *NOT* knowing who Christ is,
>> and that he needed a sign.
>
> John the Baptist knew only that which the Holy Spirit deemed
> he needed to know and not what you think he needed to know.

The Holy Spirit tells me that John needed to know who Christ is
because John's Job was:

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made
manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

John 1:31

31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with
water was that he might be revealed to Israel."

New International Version (NIV)
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan
===

31 "I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to
Israel, I came baptizing in water."

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
NASB at Lockman The Lockman Foundation NASB at Zondervan Zondervan
===

31 And I did not know Him and did not recognize Him [myself]; but it
is in order that He should be made manifest and be revealed to Israel
[be brought out where we can see Him] that I came baptizing in (with)
water.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
AMP at Lockman The Lockman Foundation Amplified at Zondervan Zondervan
===

31 And I knew Him not; but that He should be made manifest to Israel,
therefore have I come baptizing with water."

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
Copyright 1994 by Deuel Enterprises, Inc.
KJ21 at Deuel
Gospelcom.net : A ministry of Gospel Communications

You see Andrew, the Holy Spirit tells me, that John mission was
to make "a highway for the Lord Jesus" so that the whole of Israel
would find and recognize "their Lord and King" Jesus.
After all, Mary was told by the Angel that her son would be
sitting on his father DAVID's throne. The Holy Spirit indicates
also that David never sat on a throne in heaven....

>
>> Where was the discerning heart, for John did NOT KNOW Christ.
>
> Discernment is not knowledge.

It leads to *knowledge*

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discern

1. To perceive with the eyes or intellect; detect.
2. To recognize or comprehend mentally.
3. To perceive or recognize as being different or distinct; distinguish.


>
>> Yet his Job was to reveal the identity of Christ to all of
>> Israel.
>
> ... in the manner that is accordance with GOD's infinite will.

Above I posted the relevant passage Dude, that it was to be to
all of Israel.

>
>> Without a sign from heaven he still didn't know who the
>> Messiah was, keep in mind that they were *relatives*, and I'm
>> sure as such he must have known Jesus....
>
> GOD has the power to hide HIS identity from others including
> those closest to HIM.

I'm speaking about the Son of God, and John being a relative of
Jesus. In fact I'm told by the Holy Spirit, John's Parents were
the *first* people in Israel to know who the Messiah was! Before
anybody else this couple knew, and then their son 30 years later
did not know?

>
>> Matthew 11
>>
>> 2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of
>> Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
>>
>> 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we
>> look for another?
>>
>> 4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again
>> those things which ye do hear and see:
>
> John the Baptist was human in his doubt especially during his
> own trials and tribulations.

The Holy Spirit tells me, how could John doubt after all he saw
the *dove*, and as a baby in the womb he knew that Jesus was the
Messiah, why doubt it. Do YOU doubt that Jesus is the Messiah,
now be *HONEST* HOW OFTEN HAVE YOU doubted JESUS being the
MESSIAH, after being reborn, you don't come across as a
*DOUBTING* person ANDREW, but John was doubting? The Holy Spirit
tells me John was asking himself "this is my *cousin* a lowly
Carpenter, he has no real education and how could a Carpenter be
*mightier* then me John"?

Furthermore the Holy Spirit, tells me that John know that Jesus
was the Messiah, for at least the 40 days during which time
Jesus was in the wilderness, he had *PLENTY* of time to make up
his mind if Jesus indeed was the Christ.

Next, the Holy Spirit would like you to know that after John
denied being Elijah, he had more trouble believing in Jesus,
because John was very well aware that Malachi spoke about the
return of the "OT" prophet. Also he was was aware how the OT
prophet left the earth, and he wasn't sure if Elijah would come
back in like manner. The Holy Spirit tells me, that this is the
reason the Angel repeated the "exact" phrase as found in Malachi
4:5, so that Zacharias understood, "My son is the Elijah, Elijah
himself will not return".

>
>> >> <bigger grin>
>> >
>> > It is my hope that your grinning is now arising from a
>> > discerning heart rather than from a wicked mind.
>>
>> That you think bad about people Andrew....
>
> It remains my choice to not judge others even when I see their
> wickedness.

Just as you have the choice to judge, and you do so.

>
>> >
>> >> >> > Jesus' mother was there. (2) Jesus also was invited,
>> >> >> > with his disciples, to the marriage. (3) When the
>> >> >> > wine ran out, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have
>> >> >> > no wine." (4) Jesus said to her, "Woman, what does
>> >> >> > that have to do with you and me? My hour has not yet
>> >> >> > come." (5) His mother said to the servants, "Whatever
>> >> >> > he says to you, do it."
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Isn't this interesting, Mary before Jesus got into the
>> >> >> action, told them to follow the instructions Jesus
>> >> >> would later give them? How could she have known that
>> >> >> Jesus had some powers?
>> >> >

*>> >> > The Holy Spirit gave her that knowledge.*

Ahem Andrew, where does it say that the Holy Spirit gave her the
knowledge? Reading into the Bible things which aren't there?
Show me the passage that says Mary was filled with the Holy
Spirit, at that moment and so she knew that her son was about to
perform his first *public* miracle. If I would take this liberal
approach to the Bible, Vera would be all over me.


>> >>
>> >> Yet John didn't know who Christ was.....
>> >
>> > GOD's choice.
>>
>> Hilarious, Andrew is this the best you can come up with?
>
> See above.
>

<cut Matthew 11:7-11>

>> Above Jesus tells the listeners that John was a prophet, now
>> what was the *greatest* prophetic message John could have
>> spread:
>>
>> "Listen Oh Israel, the Messiah is here". But if one reads the
>> Gospel of John, then he *testified* to Jesus one time.
>>
>> 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the
>> kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take
>> it by force.
>>
>> 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
>>
>> 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for
>> to come.
>>
>> Yet John denied being it. (John 1:19-21
>
> That was John's choice.

The Holy Spirit tells me, this makes Jesus look like a liar and
messianic impostor in the eyes of those who KNEW THAT John had
denied it...

<cut Andrew's self-serving links and statement>


Werner Kurator
===========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by
imperfect man, this one falls short of it goal. Yet we are
grateful to God for the extend to which he has enabled us to
realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and our
colleagues to complete our task"

Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible

August 1983......

==============================================================

"In fact, many professing agnostics are nearer belief in
the true God then are many conventional church-goers who
believe in a bogey that does not exist whom they miscall God."

Leslie D. Weatherhead; Preface to his "The Christian Agnostic"
==============================================================
--

And God said: "E = +mv} - Ze}/r" ...and there *WAS* light!

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

unread,
Aug 24, 2006, 1:28:16 PM8/24/06
to

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <wer...@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrnecnlda...@peace-with.all...

> ::: veralein ::: in <4j21j3F...@individual.net>
> on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
>> In news:4j17haF...@individual.net,
>> ::: veralein ::: <vera...@lycos.com> typed:

<snip>

> ...13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of


> Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered
> unto him.
>
>> next day, he was determined to go out into Galilee, and he
>> found Philip. Jesus said to him, "Follow me.""
>>
>>> (2) Jesus also was invited, with his disciples, to the
>>> marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus' mother said to
>>> him, "They have no wine."
>
> So he had already the disciples with him...

Jesus had many disciples, at least 82 (counting the twelve) recall when He
sent the seventy disciples out two by two ?

So ?

> <CUT>
>
>> He can change water into vine, and darkness into light.
>
> I can change darkness into light too, just flip the light-switch
> :-)

>> He can do miracles. He can!
>
> And he said his followers could do even *greater* works, then
> him now Vera Vera *what* would that be?

"*you* (collectively) shall do greater works than these", and over the
years, all of them compiled together, we have.

>> ::: vera :::
>>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>> "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find.
>> Knock, and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks
>> receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be
>> opened." (Matthew 7:7-8 WEB)
>><>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
>>
> Werner Kurator

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

::: veralein :::

unread,
Aug 24, 2006, 3:36:34 PM8/24/06
to
Very well spoken, Glenn.

[no need to scroll down]

In news:12erodj...@corp.supernews.com,
Glenn (Christian Mystic) <christi...@ev1.net> typed:

Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator

unread,
Aug 25, 2006, 7:33:49 PM8/25/06
to
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
in <12erodj...@corp.supernews.com>
on 2006-08-24 announced this statement:
>

> "Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <wer...@peace-with.all>
> wrote in message news:slrnecnlda...@peace-with.all...
>> ::: veralein ::: in <4j21j3F...@individual.net>
>> on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
>>> In news:4j17haF...@individual.net,
>>> ::: veralein ::: <vera...@lycos.com> typed:
>
><snip>
>
>> ...13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of
>> Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered
>> unto him.
>>
>>> next day, he was determined to go out into Galilee, and he found
>>> Philip. Jesus said to him, "Follow me.""
>>>
>>>> (2) Jesus also was invited, with his disciples, to the
>>>> marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus' mother said to him,
>>>> "They have no wine."
>>
>> So he had already the disciples with him...
>
> Jesus had many disciples, at least 82 (counting the twelve) recall
> when He sent the seventy disciples out two by two ?

==================XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX====================
John 6

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and
walked no more with him.
==================XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX====================
>
> So ?

You didn't understand the point I raised at all! My point is
*at* what time did Jesus *call* his apostles.
John/G/author claims that *Andrew* and an unnamed second person
followed Jesus, after John/t/B allegedly pointed out to them
that Jesus is the "Lamb". Well the point is that John/G/author
is in my view unreliable, when it comes to the question of
*time-line* of the events in Jesus life-time.
The 3 Synoptic Gospels say that Jesus didn't start his public
ministry *after* John/t/B was thrown into JAIL. That Jesus
returned back to his home-town, and started from there.

And how can the *third* day at the wedding of Cana (as Andrew
B.Chung said) if:

*First* day John gives the testimony about himself.
John 1:19-28 If this happened before or after the baptism of
Jesus would be also important, if this happened before Jesus 40
days fast, all the counts of the days are completely way *OFF*.

OK let say Jesus really returns to John *after* he finished the
40 days fast, and that John 1:19-20 happens after Jesus was
tempted by the devil. then John denying being Christ and Elijah
would be the *FIRST* day.

"SECOND" DAY Johns first testimony to Jesus.
John 1
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and
saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of
the world.

*THIRD* day: John tells Andrew that Jesus is the Lamb of God.
John 1
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his
disciples;

*FOURTH* day by all accounts is John 1:43
John 1
43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee,
and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

The first chapter of John finishes with this:

John 1
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God
ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
========= When did this ever happen when Jesus was alive ====

Yet on that very *same third* day Jesus supposedly was to be all
the way up at Cana! I have seen people make up very interesting
ways to solve this...

John 2
1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of
Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the
marriage.

Yeah with a flight on a EL-AL (the national carrier of modern
time Israel) Jesus could have made the trip in *ONE* day.

OK John/t/B was doing his baptizing:

At the River Jordan near Bethany-across-the-Jordan,
or Bethabarah (sp?) this is near the Dead Sea:

on the map it can be found below PEREA

http://www.bible-history.com/geography/ancient-israel/israel-first-century.html

And then you have in the Chapter 2:

John 2


13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up
to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep
and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove
them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and
poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things
hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The
zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign
shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple,
and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple
in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his
disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and
they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had
said.
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the
feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the
miracles which he did.

"Read the Bible" maintains that Jesus found some of his
12 disciples (at least 4 of them) before he *officially* started
his ministry. His point is that the account as found in John is
correct. But it can't be when Jesus spends at least 4 days
around John, and then needs a few days to travel north to Cana.


>
>> <CUT>
>>
>>> He can change water into vine, and darkness into light.
>>
>> I can change darkness into light too, just flip the light-switch
>> :-)
>
>>> He can do miracles. He can!
>>
>> And he said his followers could do even *greater* works, then him
>> now Vera Vera *what* would that be?
>
> "*you* (collectively) shall do greater works than these", and over
> the years, all of them compiled together, we have.

*What* miracles can you *REALLY* name? When this *Terry* Shiavo
(sp?) case happened, this would have been a great opportunity for
Christian to show us *great* works. But she died.

>
>>> ::: vera :::
>>>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>>> "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock,
>>> and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives.
>>> He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened."
>>> (Matthew 7:7-8 WEB)
>>><>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
>>>
>> Werner Kurator
>
> Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>
>
>


Werner Kurator
--

==========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by

imperfect man, this one undoubtedly falls short of its goals. Yet
we are grateful to God for the extent to which he has enabled us


to realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and

our colleagues to complete our task."

Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible

June 1978

(Revised August 1983)
==============================================================
"I am writing for the 'Christian agnostic,' by which I mean a
person who... thought he is sure of many Christians truth,
feels that he cannot honestly and conscientiously 'sign on the
dotted line' that he believes certain theological ideas about
what some branches of the Church dogmatize."

"LESLIE D. WEATHERHEAD's thoughtful and compelling Christian
writings brought him worldwide acclaim during his lifetime. His
many other books include "the will of God", "The Autobiography
of Jesus", "Life begins at death", "The meaning of the Cross",
"Prescription for anxiety", and "time for God". Dr. Weatherhead
served as the pastor of City Temple in London, England, from
1936 until 1960"

== quote taken from the back-cover of his "the Christian Agnostic"...
==============================================================

"Of course the Universe hates you. You're working to reduce chaos by
expending a lot of energy to do your job. Thus, you're contributing to the
eventual heat death of the universe, and it's just protecting itself from
you." -- John Batzel

Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator

unread,
Aug 26, 2006, 10:46:07 AM8/26/06
to
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
in <12erodj...@corp.supernews.com>
on 2006-08-24 announced this statement:
>

> "Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <wer...@peace-with.all>


> wrote in message news:slrnecnlda...@peace-with.all...
>> ::: veralein ::: in <4j21j3F...@individual.net>
>> on 2006-07-29 announced this statement:
>>> In news:4j17haF...@individual.net,
>>> ::: veralein ::: <vera...@lycos.com> typed:
>
><snip>
>
>> ...13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of
>> Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered
>> unto him.
>>
>>> next day, he was determined to go out into Galilee, and he found
>>> Philip. Jesus said to him, "Follow me.""
>>>
>>>> (2) Jesus also was invited, with his disciples, to the
>>>> marriage. (3) When the wine ran out, Jesus' mother said to him,
>>>> "They have no wine."
>>
>> So he had already the disciples with him...
>
> Jesus had many disciples, at least 82 (counting the twelve) recall
> when He sent the seventy disciples out two by two ?

==================XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX====================
John 6

*SECOND* DAY Johns first testimony to Jesus.

John 1
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and
saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of
the world.

*THIRD* day: John tells Andrew that Jesus is the Lamb of God.

John 1
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his
disciples;

*FOURTH* day by all accounts is John 1:43
John 1
43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee,
and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

The first chapter of John finishes with this:

John 1
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you,
Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God
ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

========= When did this ever happen when Jesus was alive? ====

Yet on that very *same third* day Jesus supposedly was to be all
the way up at Cana! I have seen people make up very interesting
ways to solve this...

John 2
1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of
Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the
marriage.

Yeah with a flight on a EL-AL (the national carrier of modern


time Israel) Jesus could have made the trip in *ONE* day.

OK John/t/B was doing his baptizing:

At the River Jordan near Bethany-across-the-Jordan,

or Bethabara this is near the Dead Sea:

http://www.bible-history.com/geography/ancient-israel/israel-first-century.html

So here the disciples were already with him, while again the 3
synoptics have Jesus looking for them, after John/t/B was put
into Jail.

>
>> <CUT>
>>
>>> He can change water into vine, and darkness into light.
>>
>> I can change darkness into light too, just flip the light-switch
>> :-)
>
>>> He can do miracles. He can!
>>
>> And he said his followers could do even *greater* works, then him
>> now Vera Vera *what* would that be?
>
> "*you* (collectively) shall do greater works than these", and over
> the years, all of them compiled together, we have.

*What* miracles can you *REALLY* name? When this *Terry* Shiavo


(sp?) case happened, this would have been a great opportunity for
Christian to show us *great* works. But she died.

>


>>> ::: vera :::
>>>><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
>>> "Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock,
>>> and it will be opened for you. For everyone who asks receives.
>>> He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened."
>>> (Matthew 7:7-8 WEB)
>>><>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
>>>
>> Werner Kurator
>
> Glenn (Christian Mystic)
>
>
>

Werner Kurator
--

==========================================================
"Like all translations of the Bible, made as they are by

imperfect man, this one undoubtedly falls short of its goals. Yet
we are grateful to God for the extent to which he has enabled us


to realize these goals and for the strength he has given us and

our colleagues to complete our task."

Preface to the "New International Version" of the Bible

June 1978

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

unread,
Sep 4, 2006, 7:46:46 PM9/4/06
to

Thank you :-)

" ::: veralein :::" <vera...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:4l6de3...@individual.net...

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

unread,
Sep 4, 2006, 7:56:04 PM9/4/06
to

While we are both Christian agnostics (We believe, but know we can't prove
God's existance to others, any more than they can disprove His existance);
and share a lot of the same views ( I think because of our agnosticism)...

I am also a mystic, thus my faith is based more on my personal-relationship
with Christ, and His Father...than it is on a *book*

I am more interested in Christ's example, and teachings than *nit-picking*
over things like the order of events, the number of angels on the head of a
pin :-) etc.

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <wer...@peace-with.all> wrote in

message news:slrneev26t...@peace-with.all...

Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator

unread,
Sep 5, 2006, 4:46:54 AM9/5/06
to
Glenn (Christian Mystic)
in <12fpem0...@corp.supernews.com>
on 2006-09-04 announced this statement:

>
> While we are both Christian agnostics (We believe, but know we
> can't prove God's existance to others, any more than they can
> disprove His existance); and share a lot of the same views ( I
> think because of our agnosticism)...
>
> I am also a mystic, thus my faith is based more on my
> personal-relationship with Christ, and His Father...than it is
> on a *book*
>
> I am more interested in Christ's example, and teachings than
> *nit-picking* over things like the order of events, the number
> of angels on the head of a pin :-) etc.

Interesting is the fact that Vera hasn't complained about your
*agnosticism* while she has about me. Or am I wrong? Lately I
saw posts of hers in which she seemed to defend you. Can't
recall that she did so on my behalf. Maybe she is more
*comfortable* with a Jew (if this is correct) who is a
"agnostic" Christian... then a "Customs-Catholic" who left this
denomination behind...

When it comes to *key* events like *when* did Jesus find his
disciples, or *when* did he start his *public* ministry, then
this of course is no attempt to *nit-pick*. The 2 synoptic
gospels Mark & Matthew have Jesus start his *public* ministry
*AFTER* John/t/B was thrown in Jail, John/G/Author claims
otherwise, Jesus being in Jerusalem performing miracles, there
and clearing out the Temple, as well as the discourse with
"Nicodemus" are testimonies of Jesus *public* ministry. It has
been presented as such in the past by Christians. Now when one
points out this *apparent* contradiction, this first visit to
Jerusalem, is turned into some *private* encounter with
Nicodemus .... Fact is that John/G/A gives a internal evidence
that he *edited* the life-story of Jesus.... no denying that :-)


--

June 1978

I am Bugs Bunny of Borg. What's up, Collective?

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

unread,
Sep 19, 2006, 4:56:00 PM9/19/06
to

Personally, I think the two of you are making a big to do over nothing...

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <wer...@peace-with.all> wrote in

message news:slrnecpi4m...@peace-with.all...

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

unread,
Sep 19, 2006, 5:35:18 PM9/19/06
to

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <wer...@peace-with.all> wrote in
message news:slrnefqebu...@peace-with.all...

> Glenn (Christian Mystic)
> in <12fpem0...@corp.supernews.com>
> on 2006-09-04 announced this statement:
>
>> While we are both Christian agnostics (We believe, but know we
>> can't prove God's existance to others, any more than they can
>> disprove His existance); and share a lot of the same views ( I
>> think because of our agnosticism)...
>> I am also a mystic, thus my faith is based more on my
>> personal-relationship with Christ, and His Father...than it is
>> on a *book*
>> I am more interested in Christ's example, and teachings than
>> *nit-picking* over things like the order of events, the number
>> of angels on the head of a pin :-) etc.
>
> Interesting is the fact that Vera hasn't complained about your
> *agnosticism* while she has about me. Or am I wrong?

Maybe because I am older and more mellowed out, I rarely present a threat to
her beliefs... I know you intent much of the time (unless I am guessing
wrong, if so forgive me), you aren't so much attacking as trying to get
people to think more than just follow.

I believe there is *one Church* (not Catholic, or any recognized organized
church) which is the combinding of many incomplete 'denominations' which
have only pieces of the puzzle but are unwilling to connect them together
with the paradoxal (mistaken as contradictory) beliefs other their sister
churches.

I too try to get people to think, with "I see your... point" or "... where
you are coming from" but how does this relate to... ? But most of the time I
simply top post "Well done" (hoping someone might notice {I think I am
opening a can of worms} that much of what I compliment is paradoxal to other
things I praise... But so far, no one caught it)

> Lately I saw posts of hers in which she seemed to defend you.

Its all in how you get people to think, and how you plant your seeds.
Attack people with a Bible, and they tend to run away, get offended, and
attack back.

Be friendly, and they defend you !

Plus you too often come on too much like an atheist-agnostic, instead of the
theist-agnostic that you are... I have no desire to harm their faith, as it
is my faith, my goal is *encouragement* (thus if I don't point out my
agnosticism, few ever realize that I am one)

You come on as one trying to drive them away from their faith (too much like
a "God-hating" atheist would)

> Can't recall that she did so on my behalf. Maybe she is more
> *comfortable* with a Jew (if this is correct) who is a
> "agnostic" Christian... then a "Customs-Catholic" who left this
> denomination behind...

I don't know how to answer this, without coming across wrongly...

One, most Jews are blinded (see Romans 11) so God will 'forgive' their lack
of repentance, and save them in the end {in spite of themselves, and their
rejection of Christ, and His teachings}, thus there is less need to argue
with them, they will wake up, suddenly see at a prophetic time, and mourn
their former blindness. Vera disagrees strongly with a lot of my 'blind Jew'
beliefs {although she wouldn't put it that way} but lets them pass, when she
wouldn't if a none Jew (in risk of hell) would state the very same things !
Two, God's promise passed from Abraham to Isaac, and on to Jacob-Israel (but
not to their other kids) to "bless they who bless you, and curse they who
curse you" has never been removed. Vera, as most Christians, knows this, and
respects it.

I hope I did not offend you in any way.

> When it comes to *key* events like *when* did Jesus find his
> disciples, or *when* did he start his *public* ministry, then
> this of course is no attempt to *nit-pick*. The 2 synoptic
> gospels Mark & Matthew have Jesus start his *public* ministry
> *AFTER* John/t/B was thrown in Jail, John/G/Author claims
> otherwise, Jesus being in Jerusalem performing miracles, there
> and clearing out the Temple, as well as the discourse with
> "Nicodemus" are testimonies of Jesus *public* ministry. It has
> been presented as such in the past by Christians. Now when one
> points out this *apparent* contradiction, this first visit to
> Jerusalem, is turned into some *private* encounter with
> Nicodemus .... Fact is that John/G/A gives a internal evidence
> that he *edited* the life-story of Jesus.... no denying that :-)

What does this have to do with, one way, or another, the plan of salvation,
the teachings of Christ, etc. that we should be concerned with in trying to
live a Christian life ?

If nothing, it boils down to nit-picking over things trivial...

<snipped, old stuff>


Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD

unread,
Sep 19, 2006, 7:30:22 PM9/19/06
to
Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
> Personally, I think the two of you are making a big to do over nothing...

The LORD's purpose for me here remains to inform and not to either
argue or convince:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a699555c34425507?

May GOD continue to heal our hearts, dear friend Glenn whom I love
unconditionally.

Prayerfully in Christ's amazing love,

Andrew <><
--


Andrew B. Chung
Cardiologist, Atlanta, Georgia, USA
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit

As for knowing who are the very elect, these you will know by the
unconditional love they have for everyone including their enemies
(Matthew 5:44-45, 1 Corinthians 13:3, James 2:14-17).

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/d3b7b57d0fbf89ed?

Glenn (Christian Mystic)

unread,
Nov 13, 2006, 9:05:09 PM11/13/06
to

Mary was told who her son was before He was born, did you forget that ?

"Werner -the Christian Agnostic- Kurator" <wer...@peace-with.all> wrote in

message news:slrnecn5ob...@peace-with.all...

Libertarius

unread,
Nov 14, 2006, 11:51:30 AM11/14/06
to

Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
> Mary was told who her son was before He was born, did you forget that ?

===>Yes, according to the "LUKE" story, she was lied to, deceived into
violating her betrothal by getting impregnated by a source other than
her husband. She was promised the son would become the next king!

As for "Cana",
Bishop Spong observed that only the mother of the bride groom
could have given such instructions to her son and to the servants.
Spong's conclusion is: the bride was Mary Magdalene, who became the
wife of Jesus. (SEE: "Born of a Woman")
As for the word "CANA", IMO it is derived from the word for "Zealot".
It was a major event for the Jewish resistance fighters, when their
leader was getting married. Mary M. was slated to be the queen or
royal consort next to king Jesus.
The Gospel of Philip says she WAS his wife or consort. -- L.

John

unread,
Nov 15, 2006, 12:32:59 PM11/15/06
to
Libertarius wrote:
>
>
> Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
>> Mary was told who her son was before He was born,
>> did you forget that ?
>
> ===>Yes, according to the "LUKE" story, she was lied to,
> deceived into violating her betrothal by getting
> impregnated by a source other than her husband. She was
> promised the son would become the next king!
>

FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
There was the suffering Messiah and there was the ruling
or "conquering" Messiah. You are accusing God of lying
just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
before he sent the ruling Messiah. Too bad, things will
be done according to *his* plan, not yours. BTW, it
makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
see.

Isaiah 45:23
"By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered
in all integrity a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue
will swear."

Romans 14:11
"It is written: 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will
confess to God.'"

Philippians 2:10, 11
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and
every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

Yeshua is already the King; he sits at the right hand
of God the Father (BTW, "right hand" represents power).
Yeshua is currently preparing a place for us (Christians).
God the Father determines when he will send Yeshua to
return to earth as the ruling Messiah.

> As for "Cana",
> Bishop Spong observed that only the mother of the bride groom
> could have given such instructions to her son and to the servants.
> Spong's conclusion is: the bride was Mary Magdalene, who became the
> wife of Jesus. (SEE: "Born of a Woman")
> As for the word "CANA", IMO it is derived from the word for "Zealot".
> It was a major event for the Jewish resistance fighters, when their
> leader was getting married. Mary M. was slated to be the queen or
> royal consort next to king Jesus.

Obviously you are easily led astray by silly polemical
assertions.

> The Gospel of Philip says she WAS his wife or consort. -- L.

There is no authentic statement, even in the so called,
"Gospel of Philip, that says that anyone *WAS* the
wife or consort of Yeshua. As you know, the actual
translation of the term used in this *dubious* book
is "companion," not wife or consort.

http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph036.html
http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph059.html

As for Patterson Brown's faulty translation, see the section
titled "Mary Magdalene in the Gnostic Gospels" on page 43 of
the following Word doc:

www.ottawa-theologyontap.com/resources/transcripts/mar-21_2006-davinci.doc

Not even Wesley W. Isenberg translates the text as
Patterson Brown did. See the better translation:

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html

The term is best translated "companion." Why, everyone
traveling with Yeshua might be considered his companion!
But then, who cares? The so called "Gospel of Philip"
is totally dubious anyway. Even the 20th Century title,
"Gospel of Philip," is totally misleading. These dubious
non-biblical writings were certainly not written by Philip
the Apostle. Instead, they are only 2nd or 3rd century
polemic writings that have no authenticity as a credible
witness or connection to the actual life, times, and truth
about Yeshua. These writings, as you should know, are used
by Gnostics and now conspiracy theorists, not by Christians.
The very practices and beliefs of Gnosticism, especially
the subsequent Gnostic heterodoxy that was influencing
early Christians, was even *WARNED AGAINST* in a couple
of books of the New Testament. The Gnostics had their own
set of writings while the Christians held to the authentic
books of the Bible. Any attempt to associate the dubious
Gnostic teachings with authentic Yeshua and the subsequent
followers of authentic Christianity is deceptive.

Azaliah

unread,
Nov 15, 2006, 1:19:16 PM11/15/06
to
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:32:59 -0500, while bungee jumping, John
<ro...@127.0.0.1> shouted thusly:


>FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
> See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
>There was the suffering Messiah and there was the ruling
>or "conquering" Messiah. You are accusing God of lying
>just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
>before he sent the ruling Messiah. Too bad, things will
>be done according to *his* plan, not yours. BTW, it
>makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
>before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
>Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
>him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
>see.

Agreed, but the Messiah is ruling now.

--

Azaliah (ats-al-yaw'-hoo) "Jah has reserved"

<((>< <((>< <((><

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."
- John 17:17
.

John

unread,
Nov 15, 2006, 4:19:26 PM11/15/06
to
Azaliah wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 12:32:59 -0500, while bungee jumping, John
> <ro...@127.0.0.1> shouted thusly:
>
>
>> FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
>> See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
>> There was the suffering Messiah and there was the ruling
>> or "conquering" Messiah. You are accusing God of lying
>> just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
>> before he sent the ruling Messiah. Too bad, things will
>> be done according to *his* plan, not yours. BTW, it
>> makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
>> before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
>> Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
>> him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
>> see.
>
> Agreed, but the Messiah is ruling now.

No disagreement there, the Messiah is ruling now.
Yeshua sits at the Right Hand of God the Father.
Note: The "Right Hand" is a reference to power.

BTW, I think it would be better to have included
a small part of the message from Libertarius.
Otherwise, people reading this message might
think that *you* accused God of lying. Just to
help keep the record straight, it was Libertarius
that blathered the following:

Libertarius: ===> "Yes, according to the "LUKE" story,
she was lied to,"

Athanasius

unread,
Nov 15, 2006, 5:03:43 PM11/15/06
to
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:19:16 GMT, Azaliah <_giantw...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Agreed, but the Messiah is ruling now.

agreed as well.

I see we have much which we are in agreement. :-)

Athanasius,
dcnUNDERSCOREathanasiusATyahooDOTcomDOTau
"If the world is against Athanasius then Athanasius is against
the world." St Athanasius the Apostolic, 20th Patriarch of Alexandria.

Libertarius

unread,
Nov 17, 2006, 9:01:23 PM11/17/06
to

John wrote:
> Libertarius wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Glenn (Christian Mystic) wrote:
>>
>>> Mary was told who her son was before He was born,
>>
> >> did you forget that ?
>
>>
>> ===>Yes, according to the "LUKE" story, she was lied to,
>
> > deceived into violating her betrothal by getting
> > impregnated by a source other than her husband. She was
> > promised the son would become the next king!
>
>>
>
> FYI, there were two visions of the Messiah in prophesy.
> See: http://bethelnyc.org/sufferingmessiah.asp
> There was the suffering Messiah

===>NONSENSE!
The "suffering messiah" is just a Christian invention.
There's no such thing in any prophecy.
The prototype of the REAL "messiah" is found in
Isaiah 45. And it is NOT a "sufferer" but a CONQUEROR!

and there was the ruling
> or "conquering" Messiah.

===>That is the ONLY "messiah", the Jewish version of
Zarathustra's Saoshyant.

You are accusing God of lying

===>I am not accusing anyone of anything.
Definitely not any "god".
Just pointing out details of the Gospel story.

> just because *God* decided to send the suffering Messiah
> before he sent the ruling Messiah.

===>Nonsense!
The story says Mary was promised that her baby will receive
the throne of king David!

Too bad, things will
> be done according to *his* plan, not yours.

===>Nothing will be done. What was done was already done.

BTW, it
> makes absolutely no sense to send the ruling Messiah
> before the suffering Messiah. First came the suffering
> Messiah to pay the price of sin for those would follow
> him. Then, the ruling Messiah comes and *everyone* will
> see.

===>Pure garbage, Pauline Christos-cultic NONSENSE!

>
> Isaiah 45:23
> "By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered
> in all integrity a word that will not be revoked:
> Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue
> will swear."
>
> Romans 14:11
> "It is written: 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
> 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will
> confess to God.'"
>
> Philippians 2:10, 11
> "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
> in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and
> every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
> to the glory of God the Father."

===>This is how the Pauline letters replace the Jewish deity
with his own "Christos".

>
> Yeshua is already the King; he sits at the right hand
> of God the Father (BTW, "right hand" represents power).

===>How and when did the throne of king David get into
"heaven"???

> Yeshua is currently preparing a place for us (Christians).
> God the Father determines when he will send Yeshua to
> return to earth as the ruling Messiah.

===>More nonsense.
The gospels and pauline texts say the "end" was to come
in the FIRST CENTURY.
Of course it was just false advertising to sell the fake
"gospel".

>
>> As for "Cana",
>> Bishop Spong observed that only the mother of the bride groom
>> could have given such instructions to her son and to the servants.
>> Spong's conclusion is: the bride was Mary Magdalene, who became the
>> wife of Jesus. (SEE: "Born of a Woman")
>> As for the word "CANA", IMO it is derived from the word for "Zealot".
>> It was a major event for the Jewish resistance fighters, when their
>> leader was getting married. Mary M. was slated to be the queen or
>> royal consort next to king Jesus.
>
>
> Obviously you are easily led astray by silly polemical
> assertions.

===>Obviously you are totally brainwashed into the traditional
church thinking.
Are you capable of any original thought or decision on your own?

>
> > The Gospel of Philip says she WAS his wife or consort. -- L.
>
> There is no authentic statement, even in the so called,
> "Gospel of Philip, that says that anyone *WAS* the
> wife or consort of Yeshua. As you know, the actual
> translation of the term used in this *dubious* book
> is "companion," not wife or consort.

===>The reference is clearly to MM and it makes no
difference how you translate it.
Remember: "A rose by any other name..."

>
> http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph036.html
> http://www.metalog.org/files/ph_interlin/ph059.html
>
> As for Patterson Brown's faulty translation, see the section
> titled "Mary Magdalene in the Gnostic Gospels" on page 43 of
> the following Word doc:
>
> www.ottawa-theologyontap.com/resources/transcripts/mar-21_2006-davinci.doc
>
> Not even Wesley W. Isenberg translates the text as
> Patterson Brown did. See the better translation:
>
> http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html
>
> The term is best translated "companion." Why, everyone
> traveling with Yeshua might be considered his companion!
> But then, who cares? The so called "Gospel of Philip"
> is totally dubious anyway.

===>ALL "gospels" are "totally dubious".
They are all semi-fictional accounts about some religious
hero named "IESOUS". The Church authorities simply selected and edited
the ones they considered most suited for their compilation they called
"Holy Books".

Even the 20th Century title,
> "Gospel of Philip," is totally misleading. These dubious
> non-biblical writings were certainly not written by Philip
> the Apostle. Instead, they are only 2nd or 3rd century
> polemic writings that have no authenticity as a credible
> witness or connection to the actual life, times, and truth
> about Yeshua. These writings, as you should know, are used
> by Gnostics and now conspiracy theorists, not by Christians.

===>Actually they PRECEDED the Christian compilation!

> The very practices and beliefs of Gnosticism, especially
> the subsequent Gnostic heterodoxy that was influencing
> early Christians, was even *WARNED AGAINST* in a couple
> of books of the New Testament.

===>Why? Because their teachings were DERIVED from gnosticism,
but were denounced, the way Christians denounce Judaism and
Protestants denounce Catholicism.
You can't fool me, Kid!

The Gnostics had their own
> set of writings while the Christians held to the authentic
> books of the Bible.

===>You are totally ignorant of the history of the Bible.
MARCION compiled the first bible, the Church simply imitated
his endeavor.

Any attempt to associate the dubious
> Gnostic teachings with authentic Yeshua and the subsequent
> followers of authentic Christianity is deceptive.

===>Those are the words of one who is totally deceived.
I.e., "John".
Open your mind if possible. -- L.

Libertarius

unread,
Nov 17, 2006, 9:03:35 PM11/17/06
to

===>You guys should learn how to read!
A course in reading comprehension might help you. -- L.


Glenn (Christian Mystic)

unread,
Nov 20, 2006, 6:14:15 PM11/20/06
to

Good read, thanks....

"John" <ro...@127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:cpydnX3sTYrY0sbY...@comcast.com...

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