Froggy bashing
Earl Evleth
The French refer to the general phenomena as "francophobie".
Having lived in France for a long time (we first arrived just for a
visit 40 years ago, lived twice for one year periods in 65-66 and 71-72
then permanently came in 1974) we have seen many periods of francophobie.
Invariably the anti-French reaction in the US was greater than the
anti-American reaction here. Americans are culturally incapable
of taking flack and just shrugging it off like the French.
However, the current wave of anti-Americanism is world wide as demonstrated
by the intensity of the demonstrations. There were more demonstrators
in Spain and England, supposed allies to the US, than in France. Here, of
course, both the Government and the people were in resonace. So in
those countries the protests are influenced by domestic politics.
Even in periods of calm, one saw about one article per 6 months in the
International Herald Tribune which was what we call "froggy bashing".
The International Wall Street Journal is persistently froggy bashing on
its editorial page, perhaps twice a month. There is just something
about French cultural independence, their failure to fall in line, which
enormously irritates American mentalities.
I view this as an attempt to maintain authentic superpower status by
dominating everybody and everything. In that sense, American culture
has evolved into a "control freak" stage of behavior which it did not
have prior to WWII although certainly exhibited some tendencies. The
emergence of the United States as in international power occurred under
Teddy Roosevelt presidency, he has an expressed purpose of building a
world class navy in order to move the US onto the international scene.
But the fall of the USSR left the US on the scene as the only authentic
superpower. The world is starting to wake up to the necessity of
confronting and containing this one remaining barrier to human progress.
Earl
Suzanne
> The French refer to the general phenomena as "francophobie".
>
> by the intensity of the demonstrations. There were more demonstrators
> in Spain and England, supposed allies to the US, than in France. Here, of
> course, both the Government and the people were in resonace. So in
> those countries the protests are influenced by domestic politics.
How about the lack of intensity from the people who did not
demonstrate? With a world population of 6 billion, and a total
turnout of an estimated 2.5 million to 6 million demonstrators, we are
talking about an infinitesimal 1 thousandth of 1 per cent. Why is it
that only those with a sign saying "not in my name" are only ones
whose opinion is worth anything?
> Even in periods of calm, one saw about one article per 6 months in
the
> International Herald Tribune which was what we call "froggy bashing".
> The International Wall Street Journal is persistently froggy bashing on
> its editorial page, perhaps twice a month. There is just something
> about French cultural independence, their failure to fall in line, which
> enormously irritates American mentalities.
I read the editorial section of a major metropolitan paper on a daily
basis.
Only recently have I seen France a subject of those columns, and it
was to express an opinion in a professional manner, nothing like
"froggy bashing." I would not deign to judge the French mentality
based upon what I read in one periodical, and I suggest that you read
more widely before trying to expound on the state of the collective
American mind. You will find that France does not loom as large in
our consciousness as you think it does.
Now, about France and its "culture of independence." It seems that
France is giving orders to some of the eastern European EU hopefuls
who signed on to the letter of support for the war. This infuriated
Chirac, who told them today that they had better fall in line and do
what France tells them to do, otherwise, France will blackball them.
What does that say about France's regard for other countries who wish
to act on their own?
> I view this as an attempt to maintain authentic superpower status by
> dominating everybody and everything. In that sense, American culture
> has evolved into a "control freak" stage of behavior which it did not
> have prior to WWII although certainly exhibited some tendencies.
Do you mean to say that American government is a "control freak?" How
can culture be a control freak? If American culture is present where
you are, I deem that it is because it is successful.
The
> emergence of the United States as in international power occurred under
> Teddy Roosevelt presidency, he has an expressed purpose of building a
> world class navy in order to move the US onto the international scene.
> But the fall of the USSR left the US on the scene as the only authentic
> superpower. The world is starting to wake up to the necessity of
> confronting and containing this one remaining barrier to human progress.
>
1. What is your definition of human progress?
2. What is the United States doing to prevent it?
JIGSAW1695
From: sus...@attbi.com (Suzanne)
Date: 2/18/2003 1:39 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <1ef0aee.03021...@posting.google.com>
Earl Evleth <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:<BA766569.EFB8%evl...@wanadoo.fr>...
> The French refer to the general phenomena as "francophobie".
>
> However, the current wave of anti-Americanism is world wide as demonstrated
> by the intensity of the demonstrations. There were more demonstrators
> in Spain and England, supposed allies to the US, than in France. Here, of
> course, both the Government and the people were in resonace. So in
> those countries the protests are influenced by domestic politics.
How about the lack of intensity from the people who did not
demonstrate? With a world population of 6 billion, and a total
turnout of an estimated 2.5 million to 6 million demonstrators, we are
talking about an infinitesimal 1 thousandth of 1 per cent. Why is it
that only those with a sign saying "not in my name" are only ones
whose opinion is worth anything?
===============================
In addition, the demonstrators were fighting for a tyrant, and demanding that
he be left in place to continue killing and enslave people in other countries
as well as his own people.
Jigsaw
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
> In addition, the demonstrators were fighting for a tyrant, and demanding
> that
> he be left in place to continue killing and enslave people in other
> countries
> as well as his own people.
Tell me, Jiggy, which people is he even _threatening_ to kill who do not
currently live in Iraq?
Tell me, also, who Saddam Hussein has "enslaved"?
The demonstrators were not "fighting for a tyrant" but rather fighting
to stop the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis which will undoubtedly
result from GWB Jr's war of aggression.
I think that Joe Public in Baghdad would rather be alive than dead - a
state that becomes more likely as war draws closer.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 01:08:13 +0000
>
>le 19 Feb 2003 01:07:11 GMT, dans l'article
><20030218200711...@mb-mh.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695
><jigsa...@aol.com> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> In addition, the demonstrators were fighting for a tyrant, and demanding
>> that he be left in place to continue killing and enslave people in other
>> countries as well as his own people.
>
>Remind me of where the United States was, when Saddam was in the process of
>gassing the Kurds, Jigsaw. Hint: the words 'gas', 'supplying', 'him',
>and 'with' are somewhere in the answer.
>
>So please spare us your fucking hypocrisy, you pile of shit.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |desmond @ zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
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>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
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Dolly Coughlan Jr, the legend continues!
Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:19:00 +0000
>
>le 18 Feb 2003 10:39:45 -0800, dans l'article <1ef0aee.0302181039.2c19902=
>2...@posting.google.com>, Suzanne <sus...@attbi.com> a dit ...=20
>
>>> However, the current wave of anti-Americanism is world wide as
>>> demonstrated by the intensity of the demonstrations. There were more
>>> demonstrators in Spain and England, supposed allies to the US, than in
>>> France. Here, of course, both the Government and the people were in
>>> resonace. So in those countries the protests are influenced by domest=
>ic
>>> politics.
>
>> How about the lack of intensity from the people who did not demonstrate=
>?
>> With a world population of 6 billion, and a total turnout of an estimat=
>ed
>> 2.5 million to 6 million demonstrators, we are talking about an
>> infinitesimal 1 thousandth of 1 per cent. Why is it that only those wi=
>th
>> a sign saying "not in my name" are only ones whose opinion is worth
>> anything?
>
>There will always be fewer people willing to demonstrate, than to answer
>opinion polls. The polls in practically every nation in Europe, reflect =
>an
>_overwhelming_ opposition to war in Iraq. The figures again, from _Le
>Monde_ of Sunday-Monday last ...=20
>
>Percentages of European electorates opposing War in Iraq ...
>
>Germany --> 71%
>Belgium --> 84%
>Bulgaria --> 81%
>Spain --> 91%
>France --> 77%
>Greece --> 88%
>Hungary --> 82%
>Ireland --> 68%
>Italie --> 61%
>Norway --> 90%
>Netherlands --> 80%
>Poland --> 72%
>Portugal --> 65%
>Czech Rep. --> 65%
>Roumania --> 70%
>UK --> 90%
>Slovakia --> 57%
>Sweden --> 50%
>Switzeland --> 83%
>Turkey --> 94%
>
>Percentages of European electorates favouring War in Iraq ...
>
>Austria --> 65%
>Denmark --> 53%
>
>(sources: Gallup, Forsa/Stern (Germany), Berlinske Tidende (Denmark), Rad=
>io
>Madrilene Cadena Ser (Spain), IFOP/JDD (France), The Irish Times (Ireland=
>),
>La R=E9pubblica (Italy), Aftenposten (Norway), Esercito (Netherlands),
>Institut Marktest/Diaro de Noticias (Portugal), CVVM (Czech Republic),
>BBC (UK), OMV Institute (Slovakia), Svenska Dagbladet (Sweden),
>Blick/Isopublic (Switzerland), Turkish Daily News (Turkey))
>
>I'm not sure if those figures have changed in the past few days, but if
>they haven't, there can be no doubt that the majority is anti-war.
>
>>> Even in periods of calm, one saw about one article per 6 months in the
>>> International Herald Tribune which was what we call "froggy bashing".
>>> The International Wall Street Journal is persistently froggy bashing o=
>n
>>> its editorial page, perhaps twice a month. There is just something
>>> about French cultural independence, their failure to fall in line, whi=
>ch
>>> enormously irritates American mentalities.
>
>> I read the editorial section of a major metropolitan paper on a daily
>> basis. Only recently have I seen France a subject of those columns, an=
>d
>> it was to express an opinion in a professional manner, nothing like
>> "froggy bashing."=20=20
>
>Aside from the gutter crap that FW and Jigsaw read, like _USA Today_, or
>_The New York Post_, I believe that the 'better quality' dailies like _Th=
>e
>New York Times_ are also publishing anti-French rhetoric, albeit not quit=
>e
>as rabid and semi-literate as the two other publications I mention above.
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Now, about France and its "culture of independence." It seems that
>> France is giving orders to some of the eastern European EU hopefuls who
>> signed on to the letter of support for the war. This infuriated Chirac=
>,
>> who told them today that they had better fall in line and do what Franc=
>e
>> tells them to do, otherwise, France will blackball them. What does tha=
>t
>> say about France's regard for other countries who wish to act on their
>> own?
>
>_Le Monde_ reported the President of the Republic's words as follows ..
>
> 'Ces pays ont =E9t=E9 =E0 la fois, disons le mot, pas tr=E8s bien
=E9lev=
>=E9s,
> et un peu inconscients des dangers que comportait un trop rapide
> alignement sur la position am=E9ricaine. Je trouve que la Roumanie et
l=
>a
> Bulgarie ont =E9t=E9 particuli=E8rement l=E9g=E8res de se lancer ainsi,
=
>alors que
> leur position est est d=E9j=E0 tr=E8s d=E9licate =E0 l'=E9gard de
l'Euro=
>pe. Si
> elles avaient voulu diminuer leurs chances de rentrer dans l'Europe,
> elles ne pouvaient pas trouver meilleur moyen'. [1]
>
> 'These countries have been, let's say, not helpful and a little unaware
> of the dangers of taking the American line on things. I feel that
> Romania and Bulgaria were particularly hasty in this respect, not
> forgetting that their position concerning Europe already hangs in the
> balance. If they had been looking for a way to lessen their chances of
> entering Europe, they could scarcely have done a better job'. [2]
>
>Whilst the above is certainly an expression of dismay, I don't see it as =
>a
>threat, or an order to 'fall in line'.
>
>{ snip }
>
>[1] _Le Monde_, Wednesday 19 February 2003
>[2] My translation, thus my spelling and grammatical errors
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |desmond @ zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/=20
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 19:19:00 +0000
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Kwag7693
Date: 2/18/03 8:21 PM Eastern
Jigsaw:>> In addition, the demonstrators were fighting for a tyrant, and
demanding
>> that
>> he be left in place to continue killing and enslave people in other
>> countries
>> as well as his own people.
>
>Tell me, Jiggy, which people is he even _threatening_ to kill who do not
>currently live in Iraq?
Well, he certainly didn't seem to mind war with Iran or Kuwait. Do you have
some evidence he's changed his mind and now finds invasions imprudent? He had
Iraqi agents take a shot at Bush. Do you need him to declare his evil
intentions publically to expect he has them?
>Tell me, also, who Saddam Hussein has "enslaved"?
The entire dissenting population of Iraq. His "regime" forces people to
capitulate to demands by threat of force; they are denied the right of travel;
his son is a serial rapist; his palaces house torture chambers; he made a show
of releasing people he had jailed for dissent. What more evidence do you need
and why aren't you interested enough to just research the issue and find it?
Why do you keep apologizing for evil?
>The demonstrators were not "fighting for a tyrant" but rather fighting
>to stop the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis which will undoubtedly
>result from GWB Jr's war of aggression.
>
>I think that Joe Public in Baghdad would rather be alive than dead - a
>state that becomes more likely as war draws closer.
I think Joe Public would indeed accept some risk dying to be free of the myriad
threats to personal safety offered by the Baathist tyranny. If not, note that
Joe Public in Baghdad doesn't have the option to choose to leave Baghdad and
avoid the risks of war. Saddam is keeping him hostage to prevent himself from
being dislodged. Refusing to negotiate with hostage-takers is a better way of
preventing people from being taken hostage in the future than capitulating to
the wishes of predatory men.
JIGSAW1695
Message-id: <t02bi-...@zeouane.org>
le 19 Feb 2003 01:07:11 GMT, dans l'article
<20030218200711...@mb-mh.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com>
a dit ...
{ snip }
> In addition, the demonstrators were fighting for a tyrant, and demanding
> that he be left in place to continue killing and enslave people in other
> countries as well as his own people.
Remind me of where the United States was, when Saddam was in the process of
gassing the Kurds, Jigsaw. Hint: the words 'gas', 'supplying', 'him',
and 'with' are somewhere in the answer.
So please spare us your fucking hypocrisy, you pile of shit.
Desmond Coughlan
===============================
You tell me Dezi.
And do try to express yourself without the use of vulgarity, if you are able.
Jigsaw
JIGSAW1695
From: "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks
Message-id: <jonathan-EF7F9C...@newsroom.utas.edu.au>
In article <20030218200711...@mb-mh.aol.com>,
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
> In addition, the demonstrators were fighting for a tyrant, and demanding
> that
> he be left in place to continue killing and enslave people in other
> countries
> as well as his own people.
Tell me, Jiggy, which people is he even _threatening_ to kill who do not
currently live in Iraq?
Tell me, also, who Saddam Hussein has "enslaved"?
The demonstrators were not "fighting for a tyrant" but rather fighting
to stop the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis which will undoubtedly
result from GWB Jr's war of aggression.
I think that Joe Public in Baghdad would rather be alive than dead - a
state that becomes more likely as war draws closer.
Mr Q. Z. D.
===============================
And I am sure that they would rather be free of Saddam Hussain than not.
Jigsaw
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
jigsa...@aol.com (JIGSAW1695) wrote:
> And I am sure that they would rather be free of Saddam Hussain than not.
Being "free of Saddam Hussain (sic)" will do them little good if they're
dead or dying. Do you understand the likely magnitude of the
humanitarian catastrophe that is likely to arise from the invasion of
Iraq? Do some reading outside USA Today and the National Enquirer and I
think an inkling of the disaster to come will become apparent to you.
Earl Evleth
sus...@attbi.com wrote on 18/02/03 19:39:
> Earl Evleth <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
> news:<BA766569.EFB8%evl...@wanadoo.fr>...
>> The French refer to the general phenomena as "francophobie".
>
> How about the lack of intensity from the people who did not
> demonstrate? With a world population of 6 billion, and a total
> turnout of an estimated 2.5 million to 6 million demonstrators, we are
> talking about an infinitesimal 1 thousandth of 1 per cent. Why is it
> that only those with a sign saying "not in my name" are only ones
> whose opinion is worth anything?
It did not work that way since the public opinion polls worked in the
same direction as the demonstration numbers.
Using your kind of calculation is deceptive. People do not massively
demonstrate easily, it takes effort. News reports from New York indicated
that while only several hundred thousand "demonstrated", the shutting down
of public transportation and police blocking of entry into New York blocked
an even greater number from coming.
Here in Europe, the biggest demonstrations were in Italy, Spain and Great
Britain. Polls there had already shown that the vast majority were against
the war and also against their own national "leaders" positions backing the
USA. Any number over 100,000 is a large number is a city.
You are using a "pooh pooh" minimalists argument of trying to downgrade
the importance of important events. However, this series beats any
other I know of globally.
Basically, the demonstrations are the tip of an iceberg. One also needs to
look at the composition of the demonstrators. In Paris, the complete
political spectrum from right to left was in the march. All age groups and
social categories. The numbers, perhaps 300,000 was not as large compared
with other demonstrations I have seen here but the government was not being
opposed as in Italy Spain and Great Britain. If that was true, the number in
the demonstration would be higher in France. Next, public opinion polls are
now running 87% for using the the French veto power in the Security Council.
One of the big lessons of politics is recognizing things as they are
not as you wish them to be.
> Only recently have I seen France a subject of those columns, and it
> was to express an opinion in a professional manner, nothing like
> "froggy bashing."
The NY post has a front page with the heads of weasels replacing
the heads of the French and German representatives on the Security
Council.
Here is a selection from but one news item picked up from an "anti-French"
google search.
The news has had items on American Congressmen calling for boycotts of
French products. Nothing like that has occurred here. Americans are just
hyper sensitive, disagree with them and they go into a snit.
This item from the paper ---
*****
Some U.S. commentators have suggested Americans should boycott French wines,
fashions or cheeses until the country changes its position on Iraq.
Guillaume Parmentier, the head of the French Centre on the United States,
said he doesn't take the threat very seriously.
"Well if they prefer to eat American food, it is entirely their problem," he
said. "But seriously. This never works. Boycotts work when there are grave
human rights violations or something like that."
So far, only a cheese exporter from central France has reported a drop in
business because of anti-French sentiment. The French wine board has
reported that export levels remain at expected levels.
*****
> I would not deign to judge the French mentality ----
Being born in the US and having lived 25 years in France my guess would
be that you are wise in not attempting to do so. Few Americans under
stand the French mentality, the opposite is not true.
> based upon what I read in one periodical, and I suggest that you read
> more widely before trying to expound on the state of the collective
> American mind. You will find that France does not loom as large in
> our consciousness as you think it does.
Being American I can judge American attitudes quite well. BUT
even I were 100% French but a De Tocqueville I would be able to judge
Americans better than they themselves can. I have never ran into
an analysis of the French by and American which achieved the depth
of understanding De Tocqueville had of Americans. I have read a number
of books by Americans attempting to "explain the French" but they
all had deep faults. I would not attempt such a published analysis
myself since I know some Americans who are better and could not outdo
them.
It leaves me with the impression that my mother culture blinds
its children to this kind of analysis. So we are left to fill out
the role of the "Ugly American" all too often.
> Now, about France and its "culture of independence." It seems that
> France is giving orders to some of the eastern European EU hopefuls
> who signed on to the letter of support for the war. This infuriated
> Chirac, who told them today that they had better fall in line and do
> what France tells them to do, otherwise, France will blackball them.
> What does that say about France's regard for other countries who wish
> to act on their own?
Chirac is a conservative and was acting like a Rumsfeld. As Liberation
said this morning, he himself missed an opportunity to shut up. Mitterand
would probably not have made this blunder.
He missed the important point. I personally see no rush
in allowing into the EEC a number of economically weak states. The bottom
range of the allowable was Spain, Portugal and Greece which have per
capita incomes about 60% of the EEC average. Below that level one
invites migrating populations.
He was addressing himself to what does it take to be a member of the
"tribe". The EEC is being organized for several reasons, one is to
create a coherent economic market which permits movement of
goods and services. The means working for economic unity in the EEC.
The problem is that some political unity has to be achieved too.
The US uses economic policies of divide and conquer. The new administration
prefers bilateral agreements in which it will always dominate the exchange.
Multilaterialism is out. The US would prefer not to deal with the EEC as
a unit, so will have policies which promote relations with individual
countries. Since it is more economically powerfull than any other nation
it wins in these encounters. In Canada, for instance, NAFTA is taken to
mean "Nearly Always Favorable To the Americans". So one-on-one is a
"heads I win, tails you lose" policy. Dealing with the EEC as a unit
means dealing with an as powerful economic entity and not always winning.
To the US would naturally like to atomize the EEC into entities which
it can dominate.
So Chirac`s message should have been that. Essentially, don`t get too close
to the Americans. They will screw you.
This "control freak" aspect of American behavior is also an
unpleasant one and is one of the causes of the anti-globalization movement.
The current international movement against the US is NOT an anti-war
movement per se but against the superpower status of the USA. Chirac
realizes this and this in fact is the basis of DeGaulle`s policy.
Telling others to "shutup" was a blunder of the worse kind, it does
not lead people to realize the danger of American domination.
> Do you mean to say that American government is a "control freak?"
Exactly but the culture is that way.
> How can culture be a control freak?
"The culture". American English would use the term "way of life" in the
sense I use "culture". The American culture is anti-social at the
international level, sociopathic. "Control freak" is just a term
which gets away from any psychobabble aspect of trying to psychoanalyze
American society in a newsgroup.
> If American culture is present where you are,
> I deem that it is because it is successful.
Elements of American culture exist nearly everywhere now but I am talking
about American culture within the USA and an "attitude" problem.
> 1. What is your definition of human progress?
Towards individual and group autonomy.
> 2. What is the United States doing to prevent it?
One book entitled "Why People Hate America" by Sardar and Davies
expressed it quite nicely in saying
"The United States has made it too difficult for other people to exist"
The means for other people to exist within their own cultural context.
They way they know.
The main problem is, therefore, existentialist.
Take the Al-Qaeda movement. Why does it behave as it does? Why do
they resist our wonderful way of life?
In what way is America preventing "human progress" as they perceived in?
By being there. By trying to Americanize anything and anybody, to make
them in image of "god", which is the way were perceive ourselves in
our superpower status.
Now America is about to enter into Iraq to remake it in a way which has
to be more American. This is bound to produce more conflict.
Earl
Suzanne
> >Percentages of European electorates opposing War in Iraq ...
> >
> >Germany --> 71%
> >Belgium --> 84%
> >Bulgaria --> 81%
> >Spain --> 91%
> >France --> 77%
> >Greece --> 88%
> >Hungary --> 82%
> >Ireland --> 68%
> >Italie --> 61%
> >Norway --> 90%
> >Netherlands --> 80%
> >Poland --> 72%
> >Portugal --> 65%
> >Czech Rep. --> 65%
> >Roumania --> 70%
> >UK --> 90%
> >Slovakia --> 57%
> >Sweden --> 50%
> >Switzeland --> 83%
> >Turkey --> 94%
> >
> >Percentages of European electorates favouring War in Iraq ...
> >
> >Austria --> 65%
> >Denmark --> 53%
Then let them vote accordingly come the next election. If their
leaders have supported the war and if that issue overrides all other
issues, then vote them out. I understand that there is some
parliamentary procedure for a vote of "no confidence" in which a
government can be disbanded and an ad hoc election held to replace it.
Polls can be cleverly worded and are often nothing but a snapshot for
the current 24 hour period. An election is more substantial,
permanent, and reflects more than one single issue.
Personally, when I elect a leader, I am expecting him or her to take
some leadership. During the term, issues may flare and just as
quickly subside.
It would be a poor leader who was only interested in following current
opinion for the sake of her career. Rather, take charge and steer a
course based on the courage of convictions and on what is in the best
interests of the country and the world, long term. Sometimes that
makes one unpopular. That is the situation, I'm afraid, that Tony
Blair currently finds himself in, and the British should well
appreciate this magnificently eloquent statesman as he stakes his
political career and makes a stand.
------------------------> snip
> > 'These countries have been, let's say, not helpful and a little unaware
> > of the dangers of taking the American line on things. I feel that
> > Romania and Bulgaria were particularly hasty in this respect, not
> > forgetting that their position concerning Europe already hangs in the
> > balance. If they had been looking for a way to lessen their chances of
> > entering Europe, they could scarcely have done a better job'. [2]
> >
> >Whilst the above is certainly an expression of dismay, I don't see it as =
> >a
> >threat, or an order to 'fall in line'.
> >
OH REALLY? You don't see an impled threat in
"If they had been looking for a way to lessen their chances of
entering Europe, they could scarcely have done a better job."
You were kind enough to translate this from French into English for
me. I'm strictly monolingual, like too many other Americans.
Nevertheless, Let me do another translation:
"Uh, guys, you want to be in the EU? Well, you know something, I'm
not at all happy that you signed on to that letter of support. You
know what I think and what France thinks. We're in, you're out. We
matter, you don't. Furthermore, we will decide whether you are part
of the exclusive EU membership in the next few years, with all the
privileges and trade advantages that will bestow. On any
international controversy in the future, don't you ever embaress
France again by expressing a view that is independent of ours.
Otherwise, I'll see to it that the sun becomes a red giant before you
are ever sitting in on an EU meeting."
I just heard the president of Latvia being interviewed about this
earlier. She's none too happy with Chirac's comments. She says all
countries of Europe should be heard with an equal voice.
John Rennie
"Suzanne" <sus...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:1ef0aee.03021...@posting.google.com...
>
> I just heard the president of Latvia being interviewed about this
> earlier. She's none too happy with Chirac's comments. She says all
> countries of Europe should be heard with an equal voice.
All the states in the US are allowed two senators which gives
Wyoming the same amount of clout in the Senate as
New York or California. Americans are satisfied with
this gross inequality domestically but don't like the same
rule to be applied internationally.
danh
> in article 1ef0aee.03021...@posting.google.com, Suzanne at
> sus...@attbi.com wrote on 18/02/03 19:39:
[Largely accurate summary of why demonstrations can be representative,
snipped.]
> > Only recently have I seen France a subject of those columns, and it
> > was to express an opinion in a professional manner, nothing like
> > "froggy bashing."
>
> The NY post has a front page with the heads of weasels replacing
> the heads of the French and German representatives on the Security
> Council.
The Post is more akin to Al Jazeera than to factual reporting. This is like
picking up a copy of the Daily Planet (underground newspaper, now defunct)
and believing its contents.
[Cheesy stuff snipped.]
> > I would not deign to judge the French mentality ----
>
> Being born in the US and having lived 25 years in France my guess would
> be that you are wise in not attempting to do so. Few Americans under
> stand the French mentality, the opposite is not true.
Uh, oh. The "we are wiser than you" tactic raises its ugly head.
> > based upon what I read in one periodical, and I suggest that you read
> > more widely before trying to expound on the state of the collective
> > American mind. You will find that France does not loom as large in
> > our consciousness as you think it does.
>
> Being American I can judge American attitudes quite well.
Maybe. Maybe not. How long has it been since you lived here, Earl?
BUT
> even I were 100% French but a De Tocqueville I would be able to judge
> Americans better than they themselves can.
Gosh those French are so wise. They can properly judge others but others
cannot properly judge themselves. It's starting to get slippery on the
slope.
I have never ran into
> an analysis of the French by and American which achieved the depth
> of understanding De Tocqueville had of Americans. I have read a number
> of books by Americans attempting to "explain the French" but they
> all had deep faults. I would not attempt such a published analysis
> myself since I know some Americans who are better and could not outdo
> them.
Whatever de Tocqueville wrote was about 150 years ago. D'ya think maybe
some things are different now? This is a far more dynamic culture than the
French culture. The US today is barely recognizable compared to pre-Civil
War days.
> It leaves me with the impression that my mother culture blinds
> its children to this kind of analysis. So we are left to fill out
> the role of the "Ugly American" all too often.
This *is* a problem, but not for the reasons you cite.
[...]
> He missed the important point. I personally see no rush
> in allowing into the EEC a number of economically weak states. The bottom
> range of the allowable was Spain, Portugal and Greece which have per
> capita incomes about 60% of the EEC average. Below that level one
> invites migrating populations.
Therein lies the principal difference between the US and France or any other
country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we welcome (to one degree or
another) all who want to escape the limitations of their birth country.
While we have some problems with accepting new cultures, (usually when they
reach a critical mass of some sort, but sometimes because they're too dark,
too) we don't regularly have fascists trying to kill and intimidate
minorities nor do we have the number of antisemitic attacks that France
'enjoys'. We don't even have a significant number of attacks on mosques and
those who practice Islam. In fact, we have to protect extremists like the
KKK and neo-Nazi groups because their views are so unpopular.
> He was addressing himself to what does it take to be a member of the
> "tribe". The EEC is being organized for several reasons, one is to
> create a coherent economic market which permits movement of
> goods and services. The means working for economic unity in the EEC.
> The problem is that some political unity has to be achieved too.
I personally have little expectation that Europe will unite meaningfully
within the next 20 years. Unlike the US, Europe is composed of distinct
national entities, jealous of their own history and culture. I don't really
see the various nationalities submerging their identities for the "greater
good" of a USE to counterbalance the USA.
> The US uses economic policies of divide and conquer. The new
administration
> prefers bilateral agreements in which it will always dominate the
exchange.
> Multilaterialism is out. The US would prefer not to deal with the EEC as
> a unit, so will have policies which promote relations with individual
> countries. Since it is more economically powerfull than any other nation
> it wins in these encounters. In Canada, for instance, NAFTA is taken to
> mean "Nearly Always Favorable To the Americans".
Sigh. Both Canadians and Mexicans are "Americans". Specifically, "North
Americans", as Latin Americans are so quick to point out, but Americans
nevertheless. Why do you suppose Chile wants to be part of NAFTA?
So one-on-one is a
> "heads I win, tails you lose" policy. Dealing with the EEC as a unit
> means dealing with an as powerful economic entity and not always winning.
> To the US would naturally like to atomize the EEC into entities which
> it can dominate.
Europe is not a unified political entity, and won't be for many, many years.
> So Chirac`s message should have been that. Essentially, don`t get too
close
> to the Americans. They will screw you.
I would think the French would be more concerned about getting screwed by
the nations of Europe that have warred on her. If the French are getting
screwed by doing business with the US, it isn't obvious from their standard
of living.
> This "control freak" aspect of American behavior is also an
> unpleasant one and is one of the causes of the anti-globalization
movement.
>
> The current international movement against the US is NOT an anti-war
> movement per se but against the superpower status of the USA.
It's both. Europe liked it when there wasn't a single superpower (whatever
that means) because the US and USSR spent time focussed on each other
militarily. Now that the military issues have diminished and the USSR is
gone, the failure to find common ground earlier is haunting Europeans.
[...]
> Elements of American culture exist nearly everywhere now but I am talking
> about American culture within the USA and an "attitude" problem.
Of course - everyone wants US jeans. Just wander around nearly any country
in the world and see how quickly you could sell your jeans to the highest
bidder. That isn't US culture and its attitude (whatever *that* means),
that's the desire of others to own a piece of it. Same with music. Same
with technology, whether it's computers or missles.
> > 1. What is your definition of human progress?
>
> Towards individual and group autonomy.
Uh, Earl, these are mutually exclusive. There is little individual autonomy
in, say, proportional representation, widely found elsewhere.
> > 2. What is the United States doing to prevent it?
>
> One book entitled "Why People Hate America" by Sardar and Davies
> expressed it quite nicely in saying
>
> "The United States has made it too difficult for other people to exist"
>
> The means for other people to exist within their own cultural context.
> They way they know.
>
> The main problem is, therefore, existentialist.
Aw, for crying out loud. Both you and PV have a minimally superficial grasp
of existentialism. (Sardar and Davies too.)
> Take the Al-Qaeda movement. Why does it behave as it does? Why do
> they resist our wonderful way of life?
Several reasons: (a) it's foreign to them, (b) it's secular, (c) it's a
threat to their coercive treatment of their people, (d) Islam's world view
is not that of peaceful coexistence - like earlier Christians (when the
Church was the superpower) they believe their religion should conquer
infidels. There are more reasons, but those should do for a start.
> In what way is America preventing "human progress" as they perceived in?
> By being there. By trying to Americanize anything and anybody, to make
> them in image of "god", which is the way were perceive ourselves in
> our superpower status.
It isn't the US trying to foist jeans on the world - it's Malaysians,
Singaporeans, Chinese, Thais, South Africans, Colombians, and Bulgarians who
want a piece of the progress. No matter how you turn it, no matter how
arrogant we may agree Americans are toward other countries, the fact remains
that the US is *not* a conquering power. We've already conquered our
national territory (that's another discussion) and don't have need for
'lebensraum' - as a matter of fact, as I stated above, we are a nation of
immigrants - whose population has been kicked out of every decent country in
the world (credit to Bill Murray).
[...]
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <b30o5k$ehh$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
<da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
>
> Therein lies the principal difference between the US and France or any other
> country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we welcome (to one degree or
> another) all who want to escape the limitations of their birth country.
You are saying then that France is not a nation of immigrants. Then why is
it that one French person out of four is foreign born or has a foreign born
parent or grandparent?
In our own small building (12 apartments) we have the following nations of
origin represented: US, Germany, Romania, Greece.
Donna Evleth
danh
news:3e53e8d7$0$17611$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net...
> Dans l'article <b30o5k$ehh$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
> <da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
> > Therein lies the principal difference between the US and France or any
other
> > country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we welcome (to one degree
or
> > another) all who want to escape the limitations of their birth country.
>
> You are saying then that France is not a nation of immigrants. Then why
is
> it that one French person out of four is foreign born or has a foreign
born
> parent or grandparent?
Do you really plan to argue that France is more a nation of immigrants than
the US? This is a pretty weak proposition.
> In our own small building (12 apartments) we have the following nations of
> origin represented: US, Germany, Romania, Greece.
The plural of anecdote is not data.
dirtdog
wrote:
<snip>
>The plural of anecdote is not data.
I like that.
May I massage your balls?
w00f
bob
than
> the US? This is a pretty weak proposition.
>
huh... for exemple, islam is the first religion in france ; i mean, there
are more muslims on fridays in mosques than christians in churches on
sunday, everibody feast for aid-el-kebir or ramadan (even my boss or my
neighbour) while chistmas is just a day off to eat oysters and get money
from grandma... arabs here are like spanishs in america... for exemple usual
french is full of arabic, in every school you have two menu : a regular one,
and one without pork (without 'halouf')
there are more foreigners in your country but your country is far more
populated... but i think the proportions are almost similars...
In our own small building (12 apartments) we have the following nations of
> > origin represented: US, Germany, Romania, Greece.
where i live now (a cool area) : germans, croatian, british
where i lived before (quite poor area) : algerian, people from marocco and
tunisia, mali, portugal, czecy, poland, haiti, new guinea, ivory coast
(sic), senegal, madagascar, various asian countries... but okay, it was a
120 apartments condo :)
i think it's even more mixed in great britain and in germany which has a
huge turkish community
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<dirtdog...@fruffrant.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:01:39 -0500, "danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >The plural of anecdote is not data.
>
> I like that.
I do to. If Dan can let us know whether that one's an original or
otherwise, I'll be purloin^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hborrowing it for my .sig.
> May I massage your balls?
Steady on, old boy!
Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:34:10 +0000
>
>le Wed, 19 Feb 2003 21:28:24 +0000, dans l'article
><3e53e8d7$0$17611$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>, Donna Evleth
><dev...@noos.fr> a dit ...
>
>>> Therein lies the principal difference between the US and France or any
>other
>>> country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we welcome (to one degree or
>>> another) all who want to escape the limitations of their birth country.
>
>> You are saying then that France is not a nation of immigrants. Then why is
>> it that one French person out of four is foreign born or has a foreign born
>> parent or grandparent?
>>
>> In our own small building (12 apartments) we have the following nations of
>> origin represented: US, Germany, Romania, Greece.
>
>Whereas our building (21 apartments) has : France, Ireland, China, Viet
>Nam, Spain, Senegal, and Cameroon. Oh, and Basque (they're not a separate
>country, even if they think that they are ... ;-)).
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |desmond @ zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
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Mark Andrew Spence
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> All the states in the US are allowed two senators which gives
> Wyoming the same amount of clout in the Senate as
> New York or California. Americans are satisfied with
> this gross inequality domestically but don't like the same
> rule to be applied internationally.
>
The inequality is in the eye of the beholder; each state in the US is
permitted an equal number of votes in the Senate, just as each member nation
of the UN is permitted a single vote in the General Assembly, regardless of
its population or contribution to the UN's coffers.
M.S.
Mark Andrew Spence
>
> Americans are culturally incapable
> of taking flack and just shrugging it off like the French.
>
An arrogant--and unsupported--assertion.
>
> There is just something
> about French cultural independence, their failure to fall in line, which
> enormously irritates American mentalities.
>
This is narcissistic silliness.
M.S.
Earl Evleth
da...@lexisnexis.com wrote on 19/02/03 21:07:
> "Earl Evleth" <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
> news:BA7940C4.FA21%evl...@wanadoo.fr...
>> in article 1ef0aee.03021...@posting.google.com, Suzanne at
>> susan1@attbi.c
> The Post is more akin to Al Jazeera than to factual reporting.
The US regional press, Fox TV channel is of the same ilk as the NY
Post.
Take this item today on Fox web news.
***
Americans Just Say 'Non' to French Products
Wednesday, February 19, 2003
By Amy C. Sims
****
If you want really a vast collection of
anti-French stuff you go to
Is that not a charming name???
If you go to the correspondingly
named web site
It is an "honest" porno site, you get a fact full of photos
on blow jobs. NOW THERE IS AMERICAN CULTURE ARE WORK!
> Uh, oh. The "we are wiser than you" tactic raises its ugly head.
You have NOT established you wisdom at all, nor the level of your knowledge
or culture.
>> Being American I can judge American attitudes quite well.
> Maybe. Maybe not. How long has it been since you lived here, Earl?
I was born there, one does not rid oneself of one's root culture.
More importantly, I keep my self informed. We make periodic visits
there, our daughter lives in Florida. You don't dump half your
adult life experience in the oubliette when you come to France even
in learning another culture and language. One DOES develops other parts
of the brain. Many things fuse so one ends up feeling more knowledgeable
than before. If you haven't done it you don't know the experience.
Basically, one starts understanding the trees in the cultural forest,
what the dynamics of one`s mother culture really are. Standing off
an taking a good look unpolluted by cultural propaganda.
>> even I were 100% French but a De Tocqueville I would be able to judge
>> Americans better than they themselves can.
>
> Gosh those French are so wise.
Educated, there is a difference. Some of them are wise.
I have encountered French historians who specialize in certain periods, like
expert knowledge of the civil war period. What is more important, however
is that the general intellectual culture in France is higher than the USA.
How many popular history magazines do you find going to your favorite
magazine shop (usually the supermarket) in the USA? Here one finds
over a half dozen. Americans are generally ignorant of even current events.
They have crazy ideas.
Like:
45% of the Americans believe in the Biblical version of creation, that the
Universe was created something like 10,000 years ago. 45%, now that is
ignorance.
Take recent events , 44% of the people polled thing the either a majority or
at least some of the 9/11 Hijackers were Iraqis!
The National Geographic on its website reports a world wide geography poll
of teenagers. The US scored near the bottom just above Mexico.
Do I have to go on?
> Whatever de Tocqueville wrote was about 150 years ago.
Read it again and find out what has NOT changed?
Hell, that is why he is still quoted, like
when he said
"I know of no country, indeed, where the love of money has
taken a stronger hold on the affections of men ---²
Wow, did he peg Americans with that one. One common comment
on America is its unidimensional value system: money. A
nation where "intellectual" is a dirty word, those who think
live in "ivory towers", and are "pointy headed".
This has been recently culminated in the election of a dunce
for President. The whole culture tends to dumb itself down.
> Therein lies the principal difference between the US and France or any other
> country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we welcome (to one degree or
> another) all who want to escape the limitations of their birth country.
Wrong again. Others have answered that.
>> In Canada, for instance, NAFTA is taken to
>> mean "Nearly Always Favorable To the Americans".
>
> Sigh. Both Canadians and Mexicans are "Americans".
Americans don't believe that. It is a tired cliché.
> Of course - everyone wants US jeans.
It ain`t that and in any case jeans are made everywhere now.
Immediately Americans go shopping in their minds when
they talk about things American. It definitely shows
the influence of materialism on your thinking, the Mall
Mentality.
> Just wander around nearly any country in the world and see how quickly you
> could sell your jeans to the highest bidder.
If you want to see the impact of American culture go to www.fuckusa.com,
that is the kind of culture that Islamic radicals go wild over, want
to destroy.
Movies and TV the same thing, these are cancers eating away at individual
cultures.
> Aw, for crying out loud. Both you and PV have a minimally superficial grasp
> of existentialism. (Sardar and Davies too.)
You obviously did not grasp what I was writing about. Existentialistic
arguments are not purely philosophical. There is a branch of psychiatry
which deals with peoples neurotic anxieties in modern societies.
The study of hysterias pushed by Freudianism has been displaced with
the neurotic angst created by modern life. The "unidimensional" man has
problems with is identity. So many a person has his "mid-life crisis"
in modern industrial societies.
PV has some French experience and may have been influenced by French
thinking in this area, his wife is French. Whatever, you are thinking along
old and tired lines, you have a ways to come yet.
Earl
Earl Evleth
da...@lexisnexis.com wrote on 19/02/03 23:01:
>> In our own small building (12 apartments) we have the following nations of
>> origin represented: US, Germany, Romania, Greece.
>
> The plural of anecdote is not data.
My wife forgot to add the concierge and her husband, from Portugal.
Anecdotes are important to prove a point indicated by the statistics.
Cultural anthropologists use the technique often.
And she did mention the immigrant percentage in recent parentages.
In fact, Europe has long been an area of shifting populations. The
dominate Celts were shoved back into corners of the continent
and the British Isles in relative recent times. Due to WWII losses
the French received large number of Polish immigrants to work in the mines
in the 1920s, another wave of refugees in the 1930s from Hitler`s Europe.
The country received enormous numbers of North Africans in the post War
period.
Your statement is misleading however, France is an immigrant country,
it has been throughout history. This is not a black and white situation
as you indicated.
Basically, are you in a position to compare? You have lived in France how
many years?
Earl
John Rennie
"Mark Andrew Spence" <marks...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b31l8u$jq9$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
Er, I think that's what I said. A case of not being democratic but
fair nevertheless.
danh
> in article b30o5k$ehh$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com, danh at
> da...@lexisnexis.com wrote on 19/02/03 21:07:
>
> > "Earl Evleth" <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
> > news:BA7940C4.FA21%evl...@wanadoo.fr...
> >> in article 1ef0aee.03021...@posting.google.com, Suzanne at
> >> susan1@attbi.c
>
> > The Post is more akin to Al Jazeera than to factual reporting.
>
> The US regional press, Fox TV channel is of the same ilk as the NY
> Post.
Yeah - so what? And just what is the "US regional press" - I can't find
that newspaper anywhere. Would you be referring to the Miami Herald? Or
perhaps the Atlanta Constitution. Or maybe the LA Times or the SF
Chronicle?
[...]
> It is an "honest" porno site, you get a fact full of photos
> on blow jobs. NOW THERE IS AMERICAN CULTURE ARE WORK!
The US invented blow jobs? That's going to put a dent in the French
reputation as lovers. <g>
> > Uh, oh. The "we are wiser than you" tactic raises its ugly head.
>
> You have NOT established you wisdom at all, nor the level of your
knowledge
> or culture.
Nice tactic. It is *you* who is trying to claim superiority. Sorry - it
doesn't work that way.
[...]
You don't dump half your
> adult life experience in the oubliette when you come to France even
> in learning another culture and language. One DOES develops other parts
> of the brain. Many things fuse so one ends up feeling more knowledgeable
> than before.
"Feeling" is merely your own perception of yourself. Hardly objective.
If you haven't done it you don't know the experience.
> Basically, one starts understanding the trees in the cultural forest,
> what the dynamics of one`s mother culture really are. Standing off
> an taking a good look unpolluted by cultural propaganda.
Earl, you don't have even a slight clue. I wasn't even born in the US and
my particular cultural/educational background is far more complex than you
imagine. Save your holier than thou lecture for someone else. Neither you,
nor the nation of France is inherently superior, any more than the US is.
> >> even I were 100% French but a De Tocqueville I would be able to judge
> >> Americans better than they themselves can.
> >
> > Gosh those French are so wise.
>
> Educated, there is a difference. Some of them are wise.
There's a difference between a reading education and experience. When a
Frenchman (or any other nationality) spends time in the US, they can develop
valid views based on their experience. Reading de Tocqueville doesn't
provide enough breadth nor enough recent data to be meaningful.
> I have encountered French historians who specialize in certain periods,
like
> expert knowledge of the civil war period. What is more important, however
> is that the general intellectual culture in France is higher than the USA.
Your opinion only. Colored by your already formed opinion that French
culture is superior. Further, with a population of ~60 million, you'd need
to have about 5X the number of intellectuals in France as in the US just to
break even. Don't misunderstand (again) - I'm not saying French culture is
inferior or even marginal. I just think it's a fool's errand to try to
prove what you're trying so valiantly to do. (And not succeeding.)
> How many popular history magazines do you find going to your favorite
> magazine shop (usually the supermarket) in the USA? Here one finds
> over a half dozen. Americans are generally ignorant of even current
events.
>
> They have crazy ideas.
Like the Maginot Line? Talk about crazy notions and historical ignorance!
[Snip examples of stupidity. I'll kindly not reciprocate.]
> "I know of no country, indeed, where the love of money has
> taken a stronger hold on the affections of men ---²
>
> Wow, did he peg Americans with that one. One common comment
> on America is its unidimensional value system: money. A
> nation where "intellectual" is a dirty word, those who think
> live in "ivory towers", and are "pointy headed".
Neither "intellectual" nor "profit-oriented" is a negative concept. Open
irreverence for anything does not equate to the superiority of France.
Voltaire would have agreed. Get off your knees.
[...]
> >> In Canada, for instance, NAFTA is taken to
> >> mean "Nearly Always Favorable To the Americans".
> >
> > Sigh. Both Canadians and Mexicans are "Americans".
>
> Americans don't believe that. It is a tired cliché.
I agree - why did *you* use it?
> > Of course - everyone wants US jeans.
>
> It ain`t that and in any case jeans are made everywhere now.
> Immediately Americans go shopping in their minds when
> they talk about things American. It definitely shows
> the influence of materialism on your thinking, the Mall
> Mentality.
While I was using that solely as an example that would be widely recognized,
materialism is a perfectly defensible philosophical position. Far higher on
the plane of evolutionary thought than such drivel as has been produced by
Pascal and De Chardin and Merleau-Ponty and Rousseau. Sartre and Camus
produced excellently insightful works, but implicit in existentialism is
material grounding, their pretenses to the contrary notwithstanding.
Further, intellectual rationalization, the clinging to the claim that
poverty is preferable to affluence or claiming that affluence makes a
culture incapable of intellectual analysis and poetic/artistic heights is
nonsense. Ask a hungry man whether he'd prefer filling his belly with
religion or philosophy or art or whether he'd prefer bread and I'll show you
a man who'd take the latter. Would Cubans like to have the resources to
avoid the eye problems induced by nutritional lacks? You bet! Wars are
predicated on philosophical differences and (perceived) material
shortcomings. Feed and clothe everyone and give them something to do
besides look forward to a better life after death, and we'll have fewer
wars.
> > Just wander around nearly any country in the world and see how quickly
you
> > could sell your jeans to the highest bidder.
>
> If you want to see the impact of American culture go to www.fuckusa.com,
> that is the kind of culture that Islamic radicals go wild over, want
> to destroy.
Fuck Islamic radicals. As a Jew, I can assure you, the US is not first on
the list of what Islamic radicals want to destroy.
> Movies and TV the same thing, these are cancers eating away at individual
> cultures.
Bullshit. Censorship is no answer to anything.
> > Aw, for crying out loud. Both you and PV have a minimally superficial
grasp
> > of existentialism. (Sardar and Davies too.)
>
> You obviously did not grasp what I was writing about. Existentialistic
That would be merely "existentialist" - no "-ic" allowed.
> arguments are not purely philosophical. There is a branch of psychiatry
> which deals with peoples neurotic anxieties in modern societies.
> The study of hysterias pushed by Freudianism has been displaced with
> the neurotic angst created by modern life. The "unidimensional" man has
> problems with is identity. So many a person has his "mid-life crisis"
> in modern industrial societies.
Marcuse posited the one-dimensional man, which he tried to explain in terms
of Marxist philosophy. The problem with Marxist philosophy (and with all
your spouting, you should know this) is that it views man and history
strictly in economic terms. So for all your posturing, you return to
materialism. Droll, really.
[...]
danh
> in article b30us3$jtm$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com, danh at
> da...@lexisnexis.com wrote on 19/02/03 23:01:
[...]
> And she did mention the immigrant percentage in recent parentages.
>
> In fact, Europe has long been an area of shifting populations. The
> dominate Celts were shoved back into corners of the continent
> and the British Isles in relative recent times. Due to WWII losses
> the French received large number of Polish immigrants to work in the mines
> in the 1920s, another wave of refugees in the 1930s from Hitler`s Europe.
> The country received enormous numbers of North Africans in the post War
> period.
Pretty broad, vague and outdated information.
> Your statement is misleading however, France is an immigrant country,
> it has been throughout history. This is not a black and white situation
> as you indicated.
From:
http://www.ask.com/main/metaAnswer.asp?t=ai&s=a&MetaEngine=directhit&en=te&e
o=2&o=0&frames=True&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eambafrance%2Dus%2Eorg%2Fatoz%2Fpo
p%5Ffr%2Easp&ac=4&adcat=trvl&pt=Embassy+of+France+in+the+U%2ES%2E+%2D+Popula
tion&dm=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eambafrance%2Dus%2Eorg%2Fatoz%2Fpop%5Ffr%2Easp&io=
4&qid=D41273E0F059A34083002F7638B2E1FA&back=ask%3Dwhat%2Bis%2Bthe%2Bproporti
on%2Bof%2Bimmigrants%2Bto%2Bfrance%253F%26ori%3D%26qsrc%3D16%26meta%3D&ask=w
hat+is+the+proportion+of+immigrants+to+france%3F&dt=030220060243&amt=&pg=1&q
src=16
"At the time of the 1999 census, France's population included 3.26 million
foreigners and 4.3 million immigrants (2), of whom some had acquired French
nationality."
So let's do the math. 4.3 million immigrants out of 60 million = Less than
7%. Do you still want to pretend France is more inviting to immigrants than
the US?
> Basically, are you in a position to compare? You have lived in France how
> many years?
Data analysis doesn't require that one live in France. Your's is such a
non-starter position, I would think some of your alembicated fellow
Frenchmen would discourage you from trying to make the claim. Also, one
more thing to consider: much of France's immigrant population comes from
Algiers, Morocco, Ivory Coast - areas that France held as colonies while the
US immigrant population comes from every corner of the earth.
Earl Evleth
marks...@yahoo.com wrote on 20/02/03 4:58:
> The inequality is in the eye of the beholder; each state in the US is
> permitted an equal number of votes in the Senate, just as each member nation
> of the UN is permitted a single vote in the General Assembly, regardless of
> its population or contribution to the UN's coffers.
The origins of the US Senate are different, it was a guard
against too much republicanism and therefore basically aristocratic
in nature. Also the Senators where original not voted into power
by popular vote but by votes of the state legislatures.
Basically, however, the institution is antidemocratic.
Next the UN "legislature" does not have the power to tax member
states and as such is just a consultative body, one voice representing
each country. In that sense it is a "debating" society as some
accuse it of being. Of course various UN commissions to a bit more
although not to the satisfaction of all.
It really is an apple and orange comparison comparing the US
legislative system with the UN. More appropriately one should
compare it with other similar bodies in western democracies.
For instance, the British can tell us what the House of Lords really
does, do they have any real power. In the US, the Senate comes close,
at times, to challenging the power of the President. Being elected
for 6 years and usually easily reelected, they do have an aristocratic
tone. More over, most are millionaires, so it is a body of mostly
rich people. This permanency of office is superior to that of the
President.
Americans rarely criticize their own system to others, although bitch
about it to one another. If a foreigner points out some particularly
evident stupidity, the American will get huffy and tell the person
they don't really understand.
Earl
danh
message news:jonathan-091687...@newsroom.utas.edu.au...
> In article <ob185vou630slitsj...@4ax.com>, dirtdog
> <dirtdog...@fruffrant.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 17:01:39 -0500, "danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >The plural of anecdote is not data.
> >
> > I like that.
>
> I do to. If Dan can let us know whether that one's an original or
> otherwise,
It's older than sequoias. Help yourself. No attribution needed. <g>
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <b30us3$jtm$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
<da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
> "Donna Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote in message
> news:3e53e8d7$0$17611$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net...
>> Dans l'article <b30o5k$ehh$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
>> <da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
>
>> > Therein lies the principal difference between the US and France or any
> other
>> > country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we welcome (to one degree
> or
>> > another) all who want to escape the limitations of their birth country.
>>
>> You are saying then that France is not a nation of immigrants. Then why
> is
>> it that one French person out of four is foreign born or has a foreign
> born
>> parent or grandparent?
>
> Do you really plan to argue that France is more a nation of immigrants than
> the US? This is a pretty weak proposition.
Sorry, you said that the principal difference between the US and France is
that *we* are a nation of immigrants, thus insinuating that France is not.
I never talked about "more", I was refuting the insinuation that France is
not at all a nation of immigrants.
>
>> In our own small building (12 apartments) we have the following nations of
>> origin represented: US, Germany, Romania, Greece.
>
> The plural of anecdote is not data.
You obviously wish, for your own reasons, to believe that only the US is a
nation of immigrants. The point of the anecdote was not to be data, merely
to show you that immigration really does exist in places you obviously don't
expect it.
Donna Evleth
>
>
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <b31l90$jq9$2...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net>, "Mark Andrew Spence"
<marks...@yahoo.com> a écrit :
That's because Earl is, at times, a silly narcissist. I am Earl's wife, but
sometimes his anti-Americanism gets to me, too.
Donna Evleth
>
>
>
>
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <b32nqd$sl3$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
<da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
> "At the time of the 1999 census, France's population included 3.26 million
> foreigners and 4.3 million immigrants (2), of whom some had acquired French
> nationality."
>
> So let's do the math. 4.3 million immigrants out of 60 million = Less than
> 7%. Do you still want to pretend France is more inviting to immigrants than
> the US?
Once immigrants become French citizens they are no longer counted as
immigrants. Thus those who are naturalized and first generation children of
immigrants who were born in France and thus are French, are not counted.
Please don't forget your original insinuation, which was that France is not
a nation of immigrants at all. It was not a question of comparison, which
is what you are trying to turn it into.
Donna Evleth
Earl Evleth
Evleth at dev...@noos.fr wrote on 20/02/03 20:17:
> That's because Earl is, at times, a silly narcissist. I am Earl's wife, but
> sometimes his anti-Americanism gets to me, too.
>
My wife is from California but I am from heartland America, Chicago.
We midwesterners aren't narcissistic just direct!
Earl
danh
Sometimes words can miscommunicate. Mea culpa. I was not insinuating that
*only* the US was a nation of immigrants and that France has no immigrants.
No matter how your turn it though, it's pretty clear that the US population
is composed primarily of people and their descendants who do not regard it
as their ancestral home - hence the appellations "Mexican-Americans",
"Italian-Americans", "Irish-Americans", "Cuban-Americans",
"African-Americans", ad nauseum.
> >> In our own small building (12 apartments) we have the following nations
of
> >> origin represented: US, Germany, Romania, Greece.
> >
> > The plural of anecdote is not data.
>
> You obviously wish, for your own reasons, to believe that only the US is a
> nation of immigrants.
Tell you what, Donna - I won't make any assumptions about what you believe
and you don't make any about what I believe. Maybe that will keep each of
us from making unwarranted inferences.
The point of the anecdote was not to be data, merely
> to show you that immigration really does exist in places you obviously
don't
> expect it.
(a) The anecdote succeeded - it wasn't data though you seemed to believe it
was. (b) You don't need to "show" me what is already known. The world
population is fluid and ever migrating. In terms of real numbers and real
proportions though, France is not the hotbed of immigration and, from what I
read, there's a fair amount of backlash toward your immigrants. Whatever
your reasons for being an expatriate, you could do with less country
bashing. And that goes for nearly all who post here.
Earl Evleth
Evleth at dev...@noos.fr wrote on 20/02/03 20:25:
> Please don't forget your original insinuation, which was that France is not
> a nation of immigrants at all. It was not a question of comparison, which
> is what you are trying to turn it into.
My wife won that argument.
Earl
A Planet Visitor
I don't think he does. I've been down this road before, in a dialog
with St. George where he stated that just 6% of the U.S. population
was foreign born, see --
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=upWv8.7236%24nc.1600658%40typhoon.tampabay.rr.com
-- I replied --
"That would be nice if that number had an REAL validity. See --
http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-206.pdf
Page 9 of that U.S. Census document shows that in March
2000, there were an estimated 28.4 million foreign-born in the
U.S. That is 10.4% of the U.S. population.
Further, page 10 of that document shows that another
10% are of first-generation foreign stock. Making 55.9
million of the U.S. population of such foreign stock.
Fully 1 out of 5, have roots no further back than their
parent/parents."
Further, I am quite sure that percentage has increased in the past
three years. The U.S. is well-known to have a liberal immigration
policy (which is frankly, now being more closely examined, yet
I do not agree should be tightened whatsoever. We have a deep
history of accepting immigrants... we are a nation of immigrants).
>> Basically, are you in a position to compare? You have lived in France how
>> many years?
>
>Data analysis doesn't require that one live in France. Your's is such a
>non-starter position, I would think some of your alembicated fellow
>Frenchmen would discourage you from trying to make the claim. Also, one
>more thing to consider: much of France's immigrant population comes from
>Algiers, Morocco, Ivory Coast - areas that France held as colonies while the
>US immigrant population comes from every corner of the earth.
>
PV
John Rennie
Yes she did but Dan seems not to be listening.
John Rennie
You, Earl. - You direct??????????? You have got to be
Jookkkkiiiigggg!!!!
danh
> Dans l'article <b32nqd$sl3$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
> <da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
[...]
> Please don't forget your original insinuation, which was that France is
not
> a nation of immigrants at all. It was not a question of comparison, which
> is what you are trying to turn it into.
Come on down off that high horse before you get a nosebleed.
Here's what I wrote: "Therein lies the principal difference between the US
and France or any other country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we
welcome (to one degree or another) all who want to escape the limitations of
their birth country."
It is solely *your* inference that I was suggesting "that France is not a
nation of immigrants at all". The US is particularly known (along with
Australia and New Zealand) as a nation composed of people whose ancestral
origin is not native. No other countries that I can think of offhand, fall
into this category, including France.
Your inference is not my insinuation. And, BTW, I was clearer in my
subsequent post, which you've apparently chosen not to acknowledge. Just as
I've been clearer in this post about Australia and New Zealand, though no
one from those countries seems to have taken offense like you have.
danh
If you say so. Giggle.
danh
news:b98a5vkdfk6sa58n8...@4ax.com...
[...]
The U.S. is well-known to have a liberal immigration
> policy (which is frankly, now being more closely examined, yet
> I do not agree should be tightened whatsoever. We have a deep
> history of accepting immigrants... we are a nation of immigrants).
It's unusual that I find myself agreeing with you entirely. <g> Seems
Donna and Earl have managed to take a few words and built an entire
sandcastle from them, ignoring everything else. Sandcastles have the nasty
habit of being easily worn away.
[...]
JIGSAW1695
From: Earl Evleth evl...@wanadoo.fr
Date: 2/20/2003 1:50 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <BA7AE206.FF17%evl...@wanadoo.fr>
Earl
===============================
Why do I get the feeling that Donna wins most of the arguments in the Evleth
abode?
danh
news:iolfi-...@zeouane.org...
> le Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:02:59 -0500, dans l'article
<b338r3$of1$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, danh <da...@lexisnexis.com> a dit
...
>
> { snip }
>
> > Here's what I wrote: "Therein lies the principal difference between the
US
> > and France or any other country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we
> > welcome (to one degree or another) all who want to escape the
limitations of
> > their birth country."
>
> expression, 'we _are_ a nation of immigrants' (with your emphasis on
> 'are'), you _do seem_ (note my emphasis) to be suggesting that France
> _isn't_.
I can understand how this statement could be interpreted in that way and it
was not my intent to imply that France does not have immigrants or even that
France does not have a significant number of immigrants. What I don't
understand is why the more accurate statement that followed the next day has
been ignored.
Only 3 countries in the world that I'm aware of are thought of as being
comprised principally of immigrants: New Zealand, Australia and the US.
Population migration has been a feature of homo sapiens for the past 150,000
years or so, but only these 3 countries are known as emigration targets and
only the US actively welcomes immigrants by policy (though that policy is
tarnished). My cousin emigrated to New Zealand a couple of years ago and
their stay is highly restricted - e.g. they cannot leave the country for 2
years and they must have independent means of support just to be granted
resident status, they cannot purchase a home. Belize sorta welcomes
immigrants...if they have demonstrably independent means of support.
Interestingly, what those countries all have in common is their status as
former British colonies.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<da...@lexisnexis.com> wrote:
Oops. Ignore my last e-mail. I thought you'd missed my post.
Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:09:38 +0000
>
>le Thu, 20 Feb 2003 14:02:59 -0500, dans l'article
><b338r3$of1$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, danh <da...@lexisnexis.com> a dit
>...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Here's what I wrote: "Therein lies the principal difference between the US
>> and France or any other country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we
>> welcome (to one degree or another) all who want to escape the limitations
>of
>> their birth country."
>
>As an unbiased observer, Dan, I'd have to infer that in using the
>expression, 'we _are_ a nation of immigrants' (with your emphasis on
>'are'), you _do seem_ (note my emphasis) to be suggesting that France
>_isn't_.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |desmond @ zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>__ __ _ __ ____________ ____ _
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> | | (_| | | | | | | (_| | | | | (_| | | | / /_| _|_____| _ <| |
> |_|\__,_|_| |_| |_|\__,_|_| |_|\__,_| |_| /____|_| |_| \_\_|
>
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>
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Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:23:50 +0000
>
>le Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:51:25 -0500, dans l'article <b3383d$h3t$1@mailgate=
>2.lexis-nexis.com>, danh <da...@lexisnexis.com> a dit ...=20
>
>{ snip }
>
>> (a) The anecdote succeeded - it wasn't data though you seemed to belie=
>ve it
>> was. (b) You don't need to "show" me what is already known. The world
>> population is fluid and ever migrating. In terms of real numbers and r=
>eal
>> proportions though, France is not the hotbed of immigration and, from w=
>hat I
>> read, there's a fair amount of backlash toward your immigrants. Whatev=
>er
>> your reasons for being an expatriate, you could do with less country
>> bashing. And that goes for nearly all who post here.
>
>A fair amount of 'backlash', perhaps, but only against certain groups of
>immigrants, I believe. I've certainly never felt 'unwelcome' [1], perhap=
>s
>because I'm white and I don't have a foreign accent when I speak French.
>So nominally, the only 'foreign' part of me are the digits '99' in my
>social security number (denoting 'foreign-born'), and the town where I wa=
>s
>born (Enniscorthy, Co Wexford, for my stalkers), which is noted on my
>national ID card.
>
>I'm personally surprised that there hasn't been _more_ resentment of the
>Arab community. Before the Iraqi crisis, France was getting a reputation=
>,
>thanks to the burblings of idiot boys like Jigsaw and FW and their
>'counterparts' outside usenet, as an anti-Semitic country. This despite
>the fact that we have Europe's largest Jewish community, and that if
>'anti-Semitic' attacks are a guage of a country's anti-Semitism, then
>Israel is the world's most 'anti-Semitic' country. As Earl and I have
>pointed out, these attacks were almost exclusively carried out by the you=
>ng
>Arabs in the 'banlieues' and the 'cit=E9s', frustrated with the American
>support of Israel, and by the latter's policies in the Occupied
>Territories. So the 'Fran=E7ais de souche' would perhaps have had reason=
> to
>resent the Arab for 'tarring' the whole country with the anti-Semitism of=
> a
>minority. That it didn't happen, is testament to the strength of the
>republican tradition in France.
>
>All in all, tolerance reigns in France, with relatively little strife
>between ethnic groups. The murderous riots that we saw in LA (etc.) afte=
>r
>the acquital of the Rodney King policemen, would be unthinkable here, and
>not just for reasons linked to the easy availbility of firearms in the
>United States.
>
>
>[1] jump, FW !!! Jump !!!
>--=20
>Desmond Coughlan |desmond @ zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/=20
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>__ __ _ __ ____________ ____ _=20
>\ \ / /_ _ _ __ ___ __ _| |__ __ _ \ \ / /__ / ___| | _ \/ |
> \ V / _` | '_ ` _ \ / _` | '_ \ / _` | \ V / / /| |_ _____| |_) | |
> | | (_| | | | | | | (_| | | | | (_| | | | / /_| _|_____| _ <| |
> |_|\__,_|_| |_| |_|\__,_|_| |_|\__,_| |_| /____|_| |_| \_\_|
>
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>Sender: Desmond Coughlan <des...@lievre.voute.net>
>Message-ID: <6jmfi-...@zeouane.org>
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
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A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message news:u0mfi-...@zeouane.org...
> le Thu, 20 Feb 2003 18:53:02 GMT, dans l'article <b98a5vkdfk6sa58n8...@4ax.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a dit ...
>
> { snip }
>
> > Further, I am quite sure that percentage has increased in the past
> > three years. The U.S. is well-known to have a liberal immigration
> > policy (which is frankly, now being more closely examined, yet
> > I do not agree should be tightened whatsoever.
>
> fields and signing your name in Cyrillic.
>
While you would still be hand-picking potatoes from barren fields.
The history if Irish immigration to America, is a story writ deep into
the meaning of those words inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. Many
poor and starving Irish were literally snatched from the jaws of
starvation and abject poverty, living on to become a vital force in
the American success story.
see --
url:http://www.seark.net/~sabra/potato.html
PV
> --
> >Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
> |Spiritual Leader of the Universal
> |Right to Life Church. (umm... get
> |away from me -- you filthy black
> |starving child in Africa) 'My church'
> |isn't for you.
One wonders where that 'Universal Right to Life' is, in this picture --
url:http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0302/feature2/zoom3.html
Oh... wait a minute... I think I see it behind that small brush in the background.
There on the left... see it, desi? Those two hidden eyes of the 'provider of the
Universal Right to Life,' peering from the brush. How COULD I have missed
that 'timeless, eternal, beyond everything' right that all 'life' possesses?
Too bad that 'your Church' isn't for that child.
JIGSAW1695
Message-id: <03ggi-...@zeouane.org>
le Fri, 21 Feb 2003 02:35:33 GMT, dans l'article
<Vfg5a.11431$Cv4.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a dit ...
{ snip }
>> I bet you don't. Were it not for that policy, you'd still be ploughing
>> fields and signing your name in Cyrillic.
> While you would still be hand-picking potatoes from barren fields.
> The history if Irish immigration to America, is a story writ deep into
> the meaning of those words inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. Many
> poor and starving Irish were literally snatched from the jaws of
> starvation and abject poverty, living on to become a vital force in
> the American success story.
>
> see --
> url:http://www.seark.net/~sabra/potato.html
Except, FuckWit, I didn't go to 'America' (sic). My family crossed the
Irish Sea to the UK, and thence to France.
Desmond Coughlan
===============================
Pity!
A Planet Visitor
What is a wonder to me... is how you can be so right in almost all
things. And so wrong... from the very first instant... in respect to the
guilt of Louise Woodward. Regardless of what you presume is my
pathetic presentation... NEVER have I seen a case that was more
certain of having been properly adjudicated, and the accused actually
having gotten off rather lightly, or at most fairly. The more I argued
with JPB... the more I looked at the rulings and the URLs available,
and the testimony, the more convinced I am that JPB NEEDED to
claim corruption at every level, from prosecution and all medical
authorities, to support his obsession. And the more I became
convinced that there was more to his obsession than meets the
eye. Nonetheless... I will not argue this any further.
PV
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 11:35:44 -0000, "John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mark Andrew Spence" <marks...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:b31l8u$jq9$1...@slb4.atl.mindspring.net...
> >>
> >> "John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > All the states in the US are allowed two senators which gives
> >> > Wyoming the same amount of clout in the Senate as
> >> > New York or California. Americans are satisfied with
> >> > this gross inequality domestically but don't like the same
> >> > rule to be applied internationally.
> >> >
> >>
> >> The inequality is in the eye of the beholder; each state in the US is
> >> permitted an equal number of votes in the Senate, just as each member
> >nation
> >> of the UN is permitted a single vote in the General Assembly,
regardless
> >of
> >> its population or contribution to the UN's coffers.
> >>
> >>
> >> M.S.
> >
> >Er, I think that's what I said. A case of not being democratic but
> >fair nevertheless.
> >
> What is a wonder to me... is how you can be so right in almost all
> things. And so wrong... from the very first instant... in respect to the
> guilt of Louise Woodward.
'Ere where did she bleedin' come from? This business of introducing
arguments from other threads confuses my fast diminishing supply
of 'little grey cells'.
A Planet Visitor
wrote:
>le Fri, 21 Feb 2003 02:35:33 GMT, dans l'article <Vfg5a.11431$Cv4.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> I bet you don't. Were it not for that policy, you'd still be ploughing
>>> fields and signing your name in Cyrillic.
>
>> While you would still be hand-picking potatoes from barren fields.
>> The history if Irish immigration to America, is a story writ deep into
>> the meaning of those words inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. Many
>> poor and starving Irish were literally snatched from the jaws of
>> starvation and abject poverty, living on to become a vital force in
>> the American success story.
>>
>> see --
>> url:http://www.seark.net/~sabra/potato.html
>
>Except, FuckWit, I didn't go to 'America' (sic). My family crossed the
>Irish Sea to the UK, and thence to France.
>
America's gain :-)
France's loss :-(
And another typical reaction from desi... who actually doesn't care about the
starving masses of Irish.. as long as he has it good. How very humanitarian of him.
For one moment... let me be serious. And respectful... which will not return in
other respects. I would ask you politely and seriously to not use a (sic) after 9-11
in the future. It disturbs me, and I see it as an insult to those dead, whether you
do or not. The reaction from me, should at least be recognized by you as a
human reaction. I ask you this in all seriousness. And in return, I will NEVER
mention that you ever *giggled* at your use of it, when you either copied the
use from another, or formed it independently in your post. You may obviously
use YOUR dating system when you refer to it, but I would ask that you not
add a (sic) when you post that date, in any form. Thank you...
PV
>--
>Ayatollah desi |Superlunary and Most Exalted
> |Spiritual Leader of the Universal
> |Right to Life Church. (umm... get
> |away from me -- you filthy black
> |starving child in Africa) 'My church'
> |isn't for you.
See: ---- The Wizard that is desi ----- picture and comment which follows --
url:http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/sparrow.jpg The Wizard's words --
"I engage in 'abuse' of deathies as a matter of course. That's what they're there
for. `echo $DEITY` gave them to us, much as She gave sparrows to the
domestic cat. They're our playthings. They have no relevance in the real world,
except to remind us of the dark side to human nature, that can exist in all of us.
They're like child rapists. Nazis. Torturers of small animals. All this pretence of
'let's be civil to one another' is nauseating. How can you be 'civil' to garbage ?"
A Planet Visitor
wrote:
>le Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:51:25 -0500, dans l'article <b3383d$h3t$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, danh <da...@lexisnexis.com> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> (a) The anecdote succeeded - it wasn't data though you seemed to believe it
>> was. (b) You don't need to "show" me what is already known. The world
>> population is fluid and ever migrating. In terms of real numbers and real
>> proportions though, France is not the hotbed of immigration and, from what I
>> read, there's a fair amount of backlash toward your immigrants. Whatever
>> your reasons for being an expatriate, you could do with less country
>> bashing. And that goes for nearly all who post here.
>
>A fair amount of 'backlash', perhaps, but only against certain groups of
>immigrants, I believe. I've certainly never felt 'unwelcome' [1], perhaps
>because I'm white and I don't have a foreign accent when I speak French.
>So nominally, the only 'foreign' part of me are the digits '99' in my
>social security number (denoting 'foreign-born'), and the town where I was
>born (Enniscorthy, Co Wexford, for my stalkers), which is noted on my
>national ID card.
>
>I'm personally surprised that there hasn't been _more_ resentment of the
>Arab community. Before the Iraqi crisis, France was getting a reputation,
>thanks to the burblings of idiot boys like Jigsaw and FW and their
>'counterparts' outside usenet, as an anti-Semitic country. This despite
>the fact that we have Europe's largest Jewish community, and that if
>'anti-Semitic' attacks are a guage of a country's anti-Semitism, then
>Israel is the world's most 'anti-Semitic' country. As Earl and I have
>pointed out, these attacks were almost exclusively carried out by the young
>Arabs in the 'banlieues' and the 'cités', frustrated with the American
>support of Israel, and by the latter's policies in the Occupied
>Territories. So the 'Français de souche' would perhaps have had reason to
>resent the Arab for 'tarring' the whole country with the anti-Semitism of a
>minority. That it didn't happen, is testament to the strength of the
>republican tradition in France.
>
>All in all, tolerance reigns in France, with relatively little strife
>between ethnic groups. The murderous riots that we saw in LA (etc.) after
>the acquital of the Rodney King policemen, would be unthinkable here, and
>not just for reasons linked to the easy availbility of firearms in the
>United States.
>
See --
url:http://www.eumc.at/events/RT_Islamophobia_06-02-2003/index.htm
>[1] jump, FW !!! Jump !!!
Gladly..There is no doubt that Islamophobia lives in Paris, as long as desi lives
there. His words --
"on the grounds of being 'dumbfuck Krauts', or 'thieving Arab cunts' ... ..."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021021212933.00727.00003750%40mb-ba.aol.com
"Arabs are grasping, thieving cunts"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021007212909.00278.00004467%40mb-md.aol.com
"Hmm, those Arab cunts are planning something. What could it be ?"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20020522215859.08051.00000180%40mb-fc.aol.com
"as anyone could see and detect the satire in my 'ragheads' post."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021111213152.10597.00001269%40mb-mq.aol.com
"I live in an abolitionist jurisdiction, and have not committed murder
(other than those 17 prostitutes whose blood I drank, but they were all
'ragheads'"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021115212931.11087.00001599%40mb-fi.aol.com
"What the fuck, it's only ragheads ?"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20020908212925.09987.00000590%40mb-fp.aol.com
"A'vance, ye slackers, ye !
We'll put paid to the ragheads !
And the Lord'll thank us !"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021202212931.28026.00002232%40mb-fp.aol.com
"'sendin' [sic] dem [sic] onery ragheads to hell in a pork skin' .."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021124212914.25792.00001965%40mb-fc.aol.com
"kill the ragheads responsible for 11 September"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021119212904.23768.00001714%40mb-md.aol.com
"France (the Greatest Country on the Face of the Earth, BTW) did not 'lose' the match
against those jigaboo (*snigger*) upstarts, QZD."
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20020605201554.23403.00000133%40mb-fo.aol.com
"the 'onery ragheads' * that are Arabs"
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021024212936.18726.00000083%40mb-fe.aol.com
"not that Iraq has anything to do with al'Queda either, other than
that it's ruled by 'filthy ragheads'"
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021016212913.06142.00000353%40mb-ch.aol.com
"Hey, why bother, right ? They're only ragheads ... 'Arab cunts'"
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20020921212909.09987.00001502%40mb-fp.aol.com
"The half-million Iraqi children who have died since the sanctions were imposed, are,
to quote LDB, 'ragheads', and thus are unimportant."
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021113212902.00704.00001232%40mb-ba.aol.co
"The maniacal laughter as yet more 'ragheads' (sic) were killed in Palestine."
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021024212915.18726.00000061%40mb-fe.aol.com
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <b3383d$h3t$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
<da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
I can agree with that. I have never had much enthusiasm for
Hyphen-American, maybe because there isn't any for me:-) I'm jealous.
>
>> >> In our own small building (12 apartments) we have the following nations
> of
>> >> origin represented: US, Germany, Romania, Greece.
>> >
>> > The plural of anecdote is not data.
>>
>> You obviously wish, for your own reasons, to believe that only the US is a
>> nation of immigrants.
>
> Tell you what, Donna - I won't make any assumptions about what you believe
> and you don't make any about what I believe. Maybe that will keep each of
> us from making unwarranted inferences.
I'm for that.
>
> The point of the anecdote was not to be data, merely
>> to show you that immigration really does exist in places you obviously
> don't
>> expect it.
>
> (a) The anecdote succeeded - it wasn't data though you seemed to believe it
> was.
I never take anecdotes for data. I am a historian. I take anecdotes for
what they are, anecdotes, and that one just happened to come to my mind. I
will confess, I hadn't taken the trouble to look up the data which in fact
we have in a French almanac called Quid. That is my fault. Mea culpa.
Earl did the looking up, and, I believe, posted.
(b) You don't need to "show" me what is already known. The world
> population is fluid and ever migrating. In terms of real numbers and real
> proportions though, France is not the hotbed of immigration and, from what I
> read, there's a fair amount of backlash toward your immigrants. Whatever
> your reasons for being an expatriate, you could do with less country
> bashing. And that goes for nearly all who post here.
It is true that there is backlash against immigrants here, primarily Arabs.
Radical Islam, or Islam perceived as such, seems to be a large part of the
problem. We have had Islamic terrorism here as recently as 1995. Obviously
it is not on the scale of 9/11 by any means, but it exists, and is scary. I
speak from experience. I have read on another newsgroup about backlash in
the US toward immigrants from Mexico, particularly illegals (we have plenty
of those here, too), but you in America are really fortunate, in that their
perceived failure to assimilate is merely linguistic and does not involve
religious fanaticism.
I don't recall going in for country bashing. I try to stay away from that
sort of thing. If I have failed, I apologize. If on the other hand, you
are lumping me with Earl, who does go in for country bashing, I would rather
you didn't.
Donna Evleth
>
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <b338r3$of1$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
<da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
> "Donna Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote in message
> news:3e551d6b$0$16845$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net...
>> Dans l'article <b32nqd$sl3$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
>> <da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
>
> [...]
>
>> Please don't forget your original insinuation, which was that France is
> not
>> a nation of immigrants at all. It was not a question of comparison, which
>> is what you are trying to turn it into.
>
>
> Here's what I wrote: "Therein lies the principal difference between the US
> and France or any other country - we *are* a nation of immigrants and we
> welcome (to one degree or another) all who want to escape the limitations of
> their birth country."
>
> It is solely *your* inference that I was suggesting "that France is not a
> nation of immigrants at all". The US is particularly known (along with
> Australia and New Zealand) as a nation composed of people whose ancestral
> origin is not native. No other countries that I can think of offhand, fall
> into this category, including France.
>
> Your inference is not my insinuation. And, BTW, I was clearer in my
> subsequent post, which you've apparently chosen not to acknowledge. Just as
> I've been clearer in this post about Australia and New Zealand, though no
> one from those countries seems to have taken offense like you have.
I have just responded to your subsequent post. I did not choose to ignore
it. I had an exceptionally busy day yesterday, with urgent communications
to make to friends who needed information ASAP. That took my whole day.
There was no choice involved here, I simply didn't get around to this thread
until now.
Donna Evleth
>
>
danh
[Snipping with wild abandon]
> It is true that there is backlash against immigrants here, primarily
Arabs.
> Radical Islam, or Islam perceived as such, seems to be a large part of the
> problem. We have had Islamic terrorism here as recently as 1995.
Obviously
> it is not on the scale of 9/11 by any means, but it exists, and is scary.
I
> speak from experience. I have read on another newsgroup about backlash in
> the US toward immigrants from Mexico, particularly illegals (we have
plenty
> of those here, too), but you in America are really fortunate, in that
their
> perceived failure to assimilate is merely linguistic and does not involve
> religious fanaticism.
One of the odd aspects of immigrant absorbtion in the US, is that we first
welcome all, then are unhappy when the "all" seem to be too many from a
particular country or culture (sometimes we have a hard time differentiating
those two) and discriminate against them. I recall when we had just left
Cuba that a shoe store in downtime Miami had a sign reading "no dogs or
Cubans allowed". I wasn't exactly clear what it all meant, but I understood
enough that my mother had to drag me away from the store since I was
screaming at the manager, who couldn't discern that I wasn't "one of them
spics". (It was the use of that word that set me to yelling at him.]
Amusingly, in Cuba, I was always the "norteamericano", and thus, an
outsider.
> I don't recall going in for country bashing. I try to stay away from that
> sort of thing. If I have failed, I apologize. If on the other hand, you
> are lumping me with Earl, who does go in for country bashing, I would
rather
> you didn't.
You're much more reasonable that Earl, I've noticed. <g> Like every other
form of discrimination, bashing fails to recognize the worthwhile individual
aspects of a country.
PS - what field of history do you focus on?
Earl Evleth
at dev...@noos.fr wrote on 21/02/03 13:23:
> we have in a French almanac called Quid. That is my fault. Mea culpa.
> Earl did the looking up, and, I believe, posted.
I better post!
Quid is more than an American type "world almanac" since it is much longer,
smaller print and the size of a telephone book for a large city.
Some of it is internet available, www.quid.fr, but I find consulting the
book easier
In the 2001 issue the section on foreigners is on page 607 and is part of a
larger section on "géographie humaine". The section on foreigners
(étrangers en France) also has subsections, one section "ascendance"
of those having at least one. Over one third have foreign ancestors
back to the third generation (presumably great grand parents) and claims
that 13.5% of the population are of foreign origin. That figure does not
match the figure in another table for 1990, which claims that the
naturalized population represents 3.1% of the population and another 6-7%
are still classed as foreigners. That total is around 10% but does not
take into account the clandestine population whose numbers are all over the
map, the high estimate represent a couple % of the population.
Quantitatively, the situation is not much different in the USA, the
immigrant population, including naturalized, is estimated around 10%
but another perhaps 3% illegals are present.
Another complicating factor in France statistics is that some children born
in France were classed as foreigners up their age of majority at which time
they could ask for and receive French citizenship. The US has always had
"right of soil" and many European countries did not.
Whatever, while nobody would challenge the fact that the US historically has
been a champion country of immigration, one should not assume that
immigration has not been extensive in other countries. The US has been
also historically considered as a melting pot country although that
self-image is being challenged as the increasing Hispanic population
produces an increasing lifetime and multigenerational use of Spanish.
The French educational system and distinct characteristics of the
French language. All of the North Africans born in France will grow
up preferring to speak French with friends. Home use of Arab will occur
but highly mixed with French as occurs in Algeria and Morocco itself.
In this sense, the melting pot is working a bit better in France than the
USA at this moment in time. Economically it is not working well in either
countries.
Earl
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <b359o6$b7j$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, "danh"
<da...@lexisnexis.com> a écrit :
> PS - what field of history do you focus on?
It is French history, 1930s and 1940s, with a special interest in history of
medicine.
Donna Evleth
Rev. Don Kool
danh wrote:
> "Herbie" wrote...
>>dirtdog <dirtdog...@fruffrant.com> wrote:
>>>"danh" <da...@lexisnexis.com> wrote:
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>The plural of anecdote is not data.
>>>
>>>I like that.
>>
>>I do to. If Dan can let us know whether that one's an original or
>>otherwise,
>
>
> It's older than sequoias. Help yourself. No attribution needed. <g>
You'll have to forgive the kidies, Danny. Herbie in particular isn't
the most "worldly" fellow.
Hope this helps,
Don
--
*************************** Q: How many frenchmen does it take
* Rev. Don McDonald, SCNA * to defend Paris?
* Baltimore, MD * A: No one knows, it's never been tried.
***************************
Cerberus
> le Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:01:20 GMT, dans l'article
<bmtb5vc5bs3k03fbg...@4ax.com>, A Planet Visitor
<abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a dit ...
>
> { snip }
>
> > return in other respects. I would ask you politely and seriously to not
> > use a (sic) after 9-11 in the future. It disturbs me, and I see it as
an
> > insult to those dead, whether you do or not. The reaction from me,
> > should at least be recognized by you as a human reaction. I ask you
this
> > in all seriousness. And in return, I will NEVER mention that you ever
> > *giggled* at your use of it, when you either copied the use from
another,
> > or formed it independently in your post. You may obviously use YOUR
> > dating system when you refer to it, but I would ask that you not add a
> > (sic) when you post that date, in any form. Thank you...
>
believe
> that I, with the obvious respect for human life that is a driving force
> behind my opposition to the death penalty, could possibly _laugh_ at the
> wanton slaughter of 3,000 people. Two, I would have stopped using it long
> ago, if you hadn't mentioned it, just like I would have removed the X-No-
> Archive: flag long ago, if some obsessive prick hadn't created an AOL
> account to follow up to all of my posts.
>
> However, considering the manner in which you requested that I refrain from
> using a 'sic', I shall oblige.
Thank fuck for that.
Am I the only one that felt a surge in the 'Force'
--
WooF w00f WooF
Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:14:37 +0000
>
>le Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:01:20 GMT, dans l'article
><bmtb5vc5bs3k03fbg...@4ax.com>, A Planet Visitor
><abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> For one moment... let me be serious. And respectful... which will not
>> return in other respects. I would ask you politely and seriously to not
>> use a (sic) after 9-11 in the future. It disturbs me, and I see it as an
>> insult to those dead, whether you do or not. The reaction from me,
>> should at least be recognized by you as a human reaction. I ask you this
>> in all seriousness. And in return, I will NEVER mention that you ever
>> *giggled* at your use of it, when you either copied the use from another,
>> or formed it independently in your post. You may obviously use YOUR
>> dating system when you refer to it, but I would ask that you not add a
>> (sic) when you post that date, in any form. Thank you...
>
>Two things, PV. One, it never was a 'giggle'. Only a madman would believe
>that I, with the obvious respect for human life that is a driving force
>behind my opposition to the death penalty, could possibly _laugh_ at the
>wanton slaughter of 3,000 people. Two, I would have stopped using it long
>ago, if you hadn't mentioned it, just like I would have removed the X-No-
>Archive: flag long ago, if some obsessive prick hadn't created an AOL
>account to follow up to all of my posts.
>
>However, considering the manner in which you requested that I refrain from
>using a 'sic', I shall oblige.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |desmond @ zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>__ __ _ __ ____________ ____ _
>\ \ / /_ _ _ __ ___ __ _| |__ __ _ \ \ / /__ / ___| | _ \/ |
> \ V / _` | '_ ` _ \ / _` | '_ \ / _` | \ V / / /| |_ _____| |_) | |
> | | (_| | | | | | | (_| | | | | (_| | | | / /_| _|_____| _ <| |
> |_|\__,_|_| |_| |_|\__,_|_| |_|\__,_| |_| /____|_| |_| \_\_|
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:14:37 +0000
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>
Dolly Coughlan Jr
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 02:38:56 +0000
>
>le Fri, 21 Feb 2003 02:35:33 GMT, dans l'article
><Vfg5a.11431$Cv4.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>, A Planet Visitor
><abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> I bet you don't. Were it not for that policy, you'd still be ploughing
>>> fields and signing your name in Cyrillic.
>
>> While you would still be hand-picking potatoes from barren fields.
>> The history if Irish immigration to America, is a story writ deep into
>> the meaning of those words inscribed on the Statue of Liberty. Many
>> poor and starving Irish were literally snatched from the jaws of
>> starvation and abject poverty, living on to become a vital force in
>> the American success story.
>>
>> see --
>> url:http://www.seark.net/~sabra/potato.html
>
>Except, FuckWit, I didn't go to 'America' (sic). My family crossed the
>Irish Sea to the UK, and thence to France.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |desmond @ zeouane . org
>http://www.zeouane.org/
>http://www.zeouane.org/peinedemort/obsessive_litany.html
>__ __ _ __ ____________ ____ _
>\ \ / /_ _ _ __ ___ __ _| |__ __ _ \ \ / /__ / ___| | _ \/ |
> \ V / _` | '_ ` _ \ / _` | '_ \ / _` | \ V / / /| |_ _____| |_) | |
> | | (_| | | | | | | (_| | | | | (_| | | | / /_| _|_____| _ <| |
> |_|\__,_|_| |_| |_|\__,_|_| |_|\__,_| |_| /____|_| |_| \_\_|
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Froggy bashing
>Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 02:38:56 +0000
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Rev. Don Kool
Cerberus wrote:
> "Desi Coughlan" <des...@zeouane.org> wrote...
> A Planet Visitor wrote ...
Yes, geek.
Hope this helps,
Don
--
*************************** Q: How many frenchmen does it take
* Rev. Don McDonald, SCNA * to defend Paris?
* Baltimore, MD * A: No one knows, it's never been tried.
***************************
dirtdog
<old...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>Cerberus wrote:
<snip>
>> Am I the only one that felt a surge in the 'Force'
>
> Yes, geek.
Ho ho ho!
Q: So, Cerby, what do you like to do at the weekends?
A: I like to get bum-fucked by Yanks, Sir.
'heh'
w00f
"...morality is not a social construct."
(kwag...@aol.com) - LMAO!
"Everyone is INNOCENT of DESERVING to be murdered"
(A Planet Visitor) - LMAO!
"There is no such thing as irreparable damage"
(drdoody) - LMAO!
Rev. Don Kool
dirtdog wrote:
> "Rev. Don Kool" <old...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>Cerberus wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>>Am I the only one that felt a surge in the 'Force'
>> Yes, geek.
> Ho ho ho!
>
> Q: So, Cerby, what do you like to do at the weekends?
>
> A: I like to get bum-fucked by Yanks, Sir.
>
> 'heh'
:-)
Mr Q. Z. D. at home
<old...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Yes, geek.
Your stinging riposte is as sharp as ever it was, Donnie. How long did
it take you to compose the above "gem"?
My fucking oath you're a loser, Donnie.
Mark Andrew Spence
"Earl Evleth" <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:BA7AB348.FEAA%evl...@wanadoo.fr...
>
> The origins of the US Senate are different . . .
>
< extensive cut >
You really believe that whatever thought happens to pop into your head is of
general interest to others, don't you?
M.S.
Rev. Don Kool
>> Yes, geek.
> Your stinging riposte is as sharp as ever it was, Donnie.
Thanks, shorty.
> How long did it take you to compose the above "gem"?
1.5 seconds, my son.
> My fucking oath you're a loser, Donnie.
Your slavish devotion to my learned prose is admirable, Herbie. LOL!!
Yours in the glory that is our Lord Jesus Christ,
Don
--
*************************** Q: How many frenchmen does it take
* Rev. Don McDonald, SCNA * to defend Paris?
* Baltimore, MD * A: No one knows, it's never been tried.
***************************
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/oldno7/TheFrench.mpg
Reluctant Yamaha YZF-R1 Owner
DJ Sceptre of Man Gravy
<old...@comcast.net> wrote:
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/oldno7/TheFrench.mpg
[breach of copyright reported to ab...@comcast.net]
John Rennie
LOL
Rev. Don Kool
Herbie wrote:
> "Rev. Don Kool" <old...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/oldno7/TheFrench.mpg
>
>
> [breach of copyright reported to ab...@comcast.net]
Nice admission of defeat, Herbie. ROTFLOLASTD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yours in Christ,
dirtdog
Come on, QZD. Don't let's be hypocritical now.
You have often (quite correctly) chastised PV for allowing himself to
be boxed into a logically untenable position as a result of
disagreeing with me 'just because'.
Much as you dislike Scooter-Boy, it is an undisputed _truth_ that
quoting from Star Wars in daily discourse is geeky, and should remain
the preserve of pasty faced, gaunt gimp boy virgins with long
fingernails, greasy hair and silvery stains down the front of their
black jeans, or fat cunts who smell of BO, wear beards and cords and
still live with their mum at the age of 35.
The pertinent question is, which category does 'Cerby' fit into?
Rev. Don Kool
dirtdog wrote:
> Herbie wrote:
>>"Rev. Don Kool" politely pointed out:
>>> Yes, geek.
>>Your stinging riposte is as sharp as ever it was, Donnie. How long did
>>it take you to compose the above "gem"?
>>
>>My fucking oath you're a loser, Donnie.
> Come on, QZD. Don't let's be hypocritical now.
The kid can't help it. :-(
> You have often (quite correctly) chastised PV for allowing himself to
> be boxed into a logically untenable position as a result of
> disagreeing with me 'just because'.
>
> Much as you dislike Scooter-Boy, it is an undisputed _truth_ that
> quoting from Star Wars in daily discourse is geeky, and should remain
> the preserve of pasty faced, gaunt gimp boy virgins with long
> fingernails, greasy hair and silvery stains down the front of their
> black jeans, or fat cunts who smell of BO, wear beards and cords and
> still live with their mum at the age of 35.
>
> The pertinent question is, which category does 'Cerby' fit into?
The pertinent question is how long should proven murderers be allowed
to foul the air that decent people breathe.
Yours in the glory that is our Lord Jesus Christ,
Don
--
*************************** Q: How many frenchmen does it take
* Rev. Don McDonald, SCNA * to defend Paris?
* Baltimore, MD * A: No one knows, it's never been tried.
***************************
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/oldno7/TheFrench.mpg
Reluctant Yamaha YZF-R1 Owner
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<dirtdog...@fruffrant.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Feb 2003 00:25:35 GMT, "Mr Q. Z. D. at home"
> <Jonathan...@utas.edu.au> wrote:
>
> >In article <3E578383...@comcast.net>, "Rev. Don Kool"
> ><old...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, geek.
> >
> >Your stinging riposte is as sharp as ever it was, Donnie. How long did
> >it take you to compose the above "gem"?
> >
> >My fucking oath you're a loser, Donnie.
>
> Come on, QZD. Don't let's be hypocritical now.
Oops. My apologies to all, too. I was unaware that I replied to Donnie
with a handle that was recognisably my own. If you hadn't replied to my
post, I would have remained blissfully unaware, too. The "DJ Sceptre of
Man Gravy" alias is used so that people can (quite correctly) killfile
all my Donnie baiting and should have been used on that occasion.
> You have often (quite correctly) chastised PV for allowing himself to
> be boxed into a logically untenable position as a result of
> disagreeing with me 'just because'.
Uh-huh. OK.
> Much as you dislike Scooter-Boy, it is an undisputed _truth_ that
> quoting from Star Wars in daily discourse is geeky, and should remain
> the preserve of pasty faced, gaunt gimp boy virgins with long
> fingernails, greasy hair and silvery stains down the front of their
> black jeans, or fat cunts who smell of BO, wear beards and cords and
> still live with their mum at the age of 35.
Yes. I had forgotten that. The problem is that we are well aware that
Donnie falls into one of those categories, viz:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:Donald+author:J.+author:McDonald
&start=40&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&
as_maxd=20&as_maxm=5&as_maxy=1995&selm=3ah7ed%24ls5%40clarknet.clark.net&
rnum=42
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:Donald+author:J.+author:McDonald
&start=40&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&as_drrb=b&as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1981&
as_maxd=20&as_maxm=5&as_maxy=1995&selm=3ah9hm%24ls5%40clarknet.clark.net&
rnum=46
Oopsie!
> The pertinent question is, which category does 'Cerby' fit into?
That, I'm sure, is a matter for yourself and Cerberus to thrash out, as
it were.
Tee hee!
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
John Crawford
> dirtdog wrote:
> > Herbie wrote:
> >>"Rev. Don Kool" politely pointed out:
>
> >>> Yes, geek.
>
> >>Your stinging riposte is as sharp as ever it was, Donnie. How long did
> >>it take you to compose the above "gem"?
> >>
> >>My fucking oath you're a loser, Donnie.
>
> > Come on, QZD. Don't let's be hypocritical now.
>
> The kid can't help it. :-(
>
> > You have often (quite correctly) chastised PV for allowing himself to
> > be boxed into a logically untenable position as a result of
> > disagreeing with me 'just because'.
> >
> > Much as you dislike Scooter-Boy, it is an undisputed _truth_ that
> > quoting from Star Wars in daily discourse is geeky, and should remain
> > the preserve of pasty faced, gaunt gimp boy virgins with long
> > fingernails, greasy hair and silvery stains down the front of their
> > black jeans, or fat cunts who smell of BO, wear beards and cords and
> > still live with their mum at the age of 35.
> >
> > The pertinent question is, which category does 'Cerby' fit into?
>
> The pertinent question is how long should proven murderers be allowed
> to foul the air that decent people breathe.
>
> Yours in the glory that is our Lord Jesus Christ,
> Don
> You call yorself decent LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
> --
> *************************** Q: How many frenchmen does it take
> * Rev. Don McDonald, SCNA * to defend Paris?
> * Baltimore, MD * A: No one knows, it's never been tried.
> ***************************
> http://mywebpages.comcast.net/oldno7/TheFrench.mpg
> Reluctant Yamaha YZF-R1 Owner
--
John Crawford
u1f...@shaw.ca
If you are going to try cross-country skiing
start with a small country.
>
A Planet Visitor
Earl has never understood that learning without wisdom is a load of books
on an ass's back
PV
Earl Evleth
abc...@zbqytr.ykq wrote on 24/02/03 5:40:
> Earl has never understood that learning without wisdom is a load of books
> on an ass's back
I am consistently rated the most original poster statistically and PV
is the biggest sluper.
As is evident with his comment above.
Earl
A Planet Visitor
>in article oc8j5v86qnqb5i1dl...@4ax.com, A Planet Visitor at
>abc...@zbqytr.ykq wrote on 24/02/03 5:40:
>
>> Earl has never understood that learning without wisdom is a load of books
>> on an ass's back
>
>
>I am consistently rated the most original poster statistically and PV
>is the biggest sluper.
>
Earl... Earl...Earl... The most consistent behavior we see from you is
amour propre. I have already destroyed the entire meaning of 'original'
in posts, as decided by that simple-minded program. PROVING that
it is a trivial task to be 100% original, without it meaning a thing. Simply
that you post the words of OTHERS from articles or such, while very
seldom engaging in an active dialog.
I did so in --
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=wUtS9.28975%24Sa3.972994%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
Where I demonstrated I could be 100% original (sic), if I wished to
spoof the program. You simply cannot engage in an active dialog,
yet constantly provide fatuous drivel, using comments of others
from articles you happen to read.
And as far as _slurping_ -- I make my posts longer because I lack the time
to make them shorter. While you have admitted that you lack 'common
sense.' A rather common trait among some posters here.
>As is evident with his comment above.
>
As with never accepting Earl's posts on their face, simply because he presumes
originality... I would also advise all to never accept a drink from a urologist.
PV
>Earl
dirtdog
wrote:
<snip>
> I have already destroyed the entire meaning of 'original'
>in posts...
...by continuing to repost the same old bollocks over and over and
over again.
dirtdog
wrote:
<yada yada fucking yada>
> I make my posts longer because I lack the time
>to make them shorter.
LOL!!!!
Now there's a fucking brilliant one, FW! Let me get this straight...
You, a man who spends _hours_ writing 900 line meandering diatribes
about fuck all other than his own mental instability, are claiming
that you 'lack time'?
*guffaw*
Don't come the cunt with this cunt, cunt. You post 900 line diatribes
and become involed _as a matter of course_ in >500 line 'discussions'
because you are unemployed or retired and have fuck all else to do.
Hence, you slurp bandwidth because you have _too much_ time on your
hands.
Fucking liar.
A Planet Visitor
>On Mon, 24 Feb 2003 21:39:44 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
>wrote:
>
><yada yada fucking yada>
>
>> I make my posts longer because I lack the time
>>to make them shorter.
>
>LOL!!!!
>
>Now there's a fucking brilliant one, FW! Let me get this straight...
>You, a man who spends _hours_ writing 900 line meandering diatribes
>about fuck all other than his own mental instability, are claiming
>that you 'lack time'?
>
ROTFLMAO... The saying is a paraphrase of a quotation from Blaise Pascal.
Don't tell me... Your next comment is ___aside from the fact that I've never heard
of 'Pascal'___.
Jesus... but you are intellectually deprived.
>*guffaw*
>
Typical... some others that you might borrow from desi are --
snort
cackle
bwahahahhah
snigger
chortle
boo
chuckle
wheeze
dribble
cough
PV
>w00f
>"Everyone is INNOCENT of DESERVING to be murdered"
>(A Planet Visitor) - LMAO!
"I would rather see the extinction of the human race, than allow one innocent to
be put to death by the state." (Desmond Coughan) -- Oh, Lordy...
"Aside from the fact that I've never heard of 'Boswell'" (dirtbag)
dirtdog
wrote:
<snip infantile whine>
> Oh, Lordy...
... it's FW's mum and wife!
url:http://www.viz.co.uk/motorstrips/fatslags.htm
w00f