Re: Think About Common Factors in Cults, Churches, Blind Faiths ...
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
... when you read the following story:
Deprogramming the faithful ...
Tuesday, 11 July, 2000, 13:25 GMT 14:25 UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_828000/828506.stm
Excerpt: "Definition of a cult:
Uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate
and retain members
Forms an elitist society
Self-appointed leader who is messianic, dogmatic
and unaccountable
'End justifies the means' approach to recruitment
and fundraising
Members do not share in wealth"
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> ... when you read the following story:
> Deprogramming the faithful ...
>
> Tuesday, 11 July, 2000, 13:25 GMT 14:25 UK
a bit too dated to be relevant here on Usenet.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_828000/828506.stm
>
> Excerpt: "Definition of a cult:
>
> Uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate
> and retain members
>
> Forms an elitist society
>
> Self-appointed leader who is messianic, dogmatic
> and unaccountable
>
> 'End justifies the means' approach to recruitment
> and fundraising
>
> Members do not share in wealth"
The latter is not part of our relationship with LORD Jesus Christ:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/c615d7520f053d6e?
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you come to trust the
truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Natural. Nothing but contradictory imaginations
regarding supposedly 'magic' beings. People
believing in myths. Evolution. Chaotic universe.
Risk. Death. Disease. All of this is exactly what
we have because there's no evidence God exists
or ever existed, just belief exists and that cropped
up quite late in evolution as a manifestation of
human emotions and desires to overcome and
deal with perceived impermanence and realized
pain in a risky world.
I've addressed this issue from a disbeliever angle
before, but for those who are either believers or
unwilling to totally disbelieve, what do you suppose
a world without God would be like?
{aside}
I'm genuinely interested in whether or not believers
and those unwilling to totally disbelieve can relate
to a world of no God ... here's your chance to take
a walk on the wild side without truly doubting your
faiths as the following is merely an imaginary world
which does not (in reality) exist per your faiths or
unwillingness to totally disassociate from faiths ...
So, if any deity in an afterlife tries to diss you for
considering the following, blame it on me and tell
your deity to contact me for responsibility for what-
ever adventure y'all are willing to take regarding
the following questions ...
{end aside}
In other words, if there were no God, what would
the world be like, how would it differ from the
world we exist in, and what evidence do you
have that the absence of God (in reality) would
be any different than the lack of God interaction
with humankind (per most religious theories due
to God's rules requiring absence of interaction
with humankind for the most part, or so the
theory goes)?
In describing this God-free world (I know this
is difficult for believers and those unable to
bring themselves to even contemplate such
a thing as no God), try to explain how natural
forces (or non-God forces, if you prefer) could
not have resulted in the world we exist in.
If natural forces (or non-God forces, if you
prefer) could have resulted in the world we
exist in, do you believers and those of you
unable to totally disbelieve understand how
we in the disbeliever community have come
to our decisions using logical and rational
means?
Do you understand how our position of no
God has a reasonable and rational basis
for a degree of understanding and empathy
towards disbelievers on the part of believers
and those of you unwilling to totally disbelieve?
Do you understand how, in a world of no God,
it would be a simple task for an evolving species
to create super-beings based on imagination, fear,
desire, and other factors in a pre-scientific world?
Can you relate to that world (of no God) being
exactly like this world (of a God per believers
and of the possibility of a God for those of you
unwilling to totally disbelieve)?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5b384843ccede10f?
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://WDJW.net
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Any good books out there on how God does
what God is purported to do, from the standpoint
of physics? Is there any hard science on the
methodology of God or is it all hearsay and
claims without evidence?
For example, there are quite a few naturalistic
explanations of how the universe started or has
always been in existence in one way or another,
a growing body of evidence regarding the origins
of life on earth, countless evidence on how the
universe and life works, yet I've never run across
any science on how this God so many are so
taken by physically does anything.
Is anyone out there in the doubting and scientific
world truly impressed with the science of God?
If so, please provide, using the scientific method,
evidence that a God (define God) does anything
whatsoever in the way of physics in the real
world we all exist in.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
>Any good books out there on how God does
>what God is purported to do, from the standpoint
>of physics?
No. Such books would be heresay and not evidence of GOD just as
Darwin's book is heresay and not evidence of evolution.
> Is there any hard science on the
>methodology of God or is it all hearsay and
>claims without evidence?
Observations by eye-witnesses are evidence.
The testimonies of eye-witnesses continue to be accepted by rational
people as evidence.
Eye-witness accounts of miracles continue to be evidence of GOD.
The miracle of your being unable to publicly say "Jesus is LORD" is
evidence of GOD.
>For example, there are quite a few naturalistic
>explanations of how the universe started or has
>always been in existence in one way or another,
>a growing body of evidence regarding the origins
>of life on earth, countless evidence on how the
>universe and life works, yet I've never run across
>any science on how this God so many are so
>taken by physically does anything.
The explanations and opinions of naturalists continue to be all
hearsay and claims without evidence (there are no eye-witness
testimonies that support their explanations/opinions as to how the
universe started).
>Is anyone out there in the doubting and scientific
>world truly impressed with the science of God?
Am one in the scientific world who is truly overwhelmingly impressed
with the reality of GOD.
>If so, please provide, using the scientific method,
>evidence that a God (define God) does anything
>whatsoever in the way of physics in the real
>world we all exist in.
That is easy because lots of physics was involved in GOD turning a
real hurricane away from someone per the request of one of Jesus'
disciples:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5b384843ccede10f?
Please, consider being courageous and answering the following simple
question instead of evading it:
Now, can you publicly say "Jesus is LORD" ?
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhjD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://EmoryCardiology.com
Thommadura
>
> Any good books out there on how God does
> what God is purported to do, from the standpoint
> of physics? Is there any hard science on the
> methodology of God or is it all hearsay and
> claims without evidence?
You are not serious - are you?
A true man of science would not attempt to explain a god until before
attempting to establish they exist beyond superstition - and only then -
what they are capable of doing.
A true man of science would not try to explain the acts of Leprechauns
for the same reason.
Ask yourself a question - How would you explain how fast a car could go
- if none existed - and you had no knowledge of them first.
Those that attempt to say that gods could actually have done some things
- make a big Assumption - that gods not only exist - but that they have
the power THEY give them.
Are you educated - can you think?
Think about this one.
There must be something YOU can do very well. Does the fact that you do
one thing very well mean that you can do all things? Even if you could
justify a "higher power" that started the process of creation - does
that establish that such a "higher power" is all knowing - all loving -
all fair - all just - all anything? Where did heaven - hell - angels -
devils - purgatory - limbo - original sin - Eden - Babel - etal - come from?
THe methodology of gods is obvious. Look into the historical record.
Religions were created by difference civilizations - they almost ALL had
them (note Buddhism and Confucianism do not believe in gods). In the
ancient civilizations - the religion came and went with the
civilization. As they were conquered and assimilated - the new religion
might take on some of the aspects of the earlier ones - but as they
progressed - they new one always had to have better whopper stories -
and more power than YOUR god. But the most obvious aspect of religion is
that they were militarily enforced upon the people. Today - there are
still countries where it is a death penalty offense to question the
countries religion.
People are not born believing in gods - like discrimination :
you have to be taught to hate and fear -
you have to be taught from year to year
You have to be taught before its too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
TO hate all the things your relatives hate
You have to be carefully taught.
IF it were actually true - why would force be needed.
Why are you taught NOT to ask questions?
Dr. Jackanapes MD/PhD
In sci.med.cardiology Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD vomited out...
> A world without the following scientific proof:
Shut up, Chung. If you really understood anything scientific proof you'd
realize that the question "What Would a World Without God Be Like?" is a
trick question.
The doctor who fired you in Florida said that you were a very
intelligent student. He also said that being only book smart would get
you nowhere in life. You should have listened to that advice, Chung.
Although I have serious doubts about your intelligence. Although it is
possible that you acquired a bacterial brain infection when you did
something that most people know better than to do: Let a wild bird into
your living space and treat it like a pet. Just breating in a small
amount of their waste is enough to cause a fatal brain infection.
--
St. Jackanapes
- http://www.voy.com/20630/
--------------------------------------
Doc Chung's Cat Suey Café...
- http://www.jackanapes.ws/2pdcat.html
Dr. Jackanapes MD/PhD
In sci.med.cardiology Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD vomited out...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
> >
> >Any good books out there on how God does
> >what God is purported to do, from the standpoint
> >of physics?
>
> No. Such books would be heresay and not evidence of GOD just as
> Darwin's book is heresay and not evidence of evolution.
You are a fool, Chung. Darwin's book is *not* hearsay. It is in the
first person. Do you even know what hearsay means?
Here, I'll help you out: Hearsay literally means information gathered by
the first person from a second person concerning some event, condition,
or thing of which the first person had no direct experience.
Now go read Darwin's book.
Dr. Jackanapes MD/PhD
In sci.med.cardiology a mixed up Andrew B. Chung vomited out...
> A world without God is a scientifically fact:
>
> http://www.thegodmovie.com/
That's a very interesting film, Chung. I hadn't realized that along with
schizophrenia, you also were afflicted with Bipolar Disorder.
While you're in the correct frame of mind about the negativity of Gods,
you should also investigate this scientifically sound website:
Jesus Never Existed: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/
..and those of you that missed the film's hot-link:
The God Movie: http://www.thegodmovie.com/
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Thommadura" <tomm...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:49be8a33$0$22550$607e...@cv.net...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>> Any good books out there on how God does
>> what God is purported to do, from the standpoint
>> of physics? Is there any hard science on the
>> methodology of God or is it all hearsay and
>> claims without evidence?
> You are not serious - are you?
Religionists (many) are serious about
their particular gods, so something
other than blind faith would be appro-
priate if they, indeed, want naturalism
to be subordinate to supernaturalism.
As for God and physics, they magic
up God causality. One wonders what
they posit regarding how God sup-
posedly interacts with physics.
When disasters happen, they adopt
various explanations:
o Humans are to blame (some de-
voted believers assert), usually
picking something they think
their version of God does not
like, and blaming humans who
do that unlikeable thing for the
disaster, leaving God with ulti-
mate blame translated by be-
lievers to fear of God guilt-trip
supreme.
o Nature is to blame, but God
couldn't or didn't intervene be-
cause, well, just because, and
at that point, many believers
resort to either blaming nature
as if God is guiltless (see below)
or as if God(s) is(are) justified
for his/its/her/their involvement
in the disaster (or lack of doing
anything to prevent the disaster)
due to the above guilt-trip.
o Natural risks are divorced by
some believers from their God
being involved, those believers
having an amazing ability to cre-
dit God for things they like, and
blame anything other than God
for things they don't like.
In all cases, whatever posit they
wish to make is seriously flawed,
for without any evidence, all they
have is their imagination.
God _____. Human imagination.
No evidence. No proof. Just claims.
> A true man of science would not attempt to explain a god until before
> attempting to establish they exist beyond superstition - and only then -
> what they are capable of doing.
Some physicists do believe, without
one iota of evidence that God (any
of them) exists.
> A true man of science would not try to explain the acts of Leprechauns
> for the same reason.
Most understand the attributes assigned
to any God far exceed the attributes as-
signed to other imaginary beings. After
all, believers assign God the attribute
of all, of 'creation' of nature, of immor-
tality, of damnation, and one's imagina-
tion can't take one much further than
that.
As for posits that God violates the laws
of physics, it would be interesting if a
physicist ventured into that area, if any
evidence exists for that, and the absence
of any evidence would strengthen the
case, in my view, that God is evidently,
just myth.
> Ask yourself a question - How would you explain how fast a car could go
> - if none existed - and you had no knowledge of them first.
>
> Those that attempt to say that gods could actually have done some things
> - make a big Assumption - that gods not only exist - but that they have
> the power THEY give them.
True, and it's imaginary power.
> Are you educated - can you think?
In case you haven't noticed, I don't
believe in gods or any other imaginary
beings.
> Think about this one.
>
> There must be something YOU can do very well. Does the fact that you do
> one thing very well mean that you can do all things? Even if you could
> justify a "higher power" that started the process of creation - does
> that establish that such a "higher power" is all knowing - all loving -
> all fair - all just - all anything? Where did heaven - hell - angels -
> devils - purgatory - limbo - original sin - Eden - Babel - etal - come from?
Human imagination.
> THe methodology of gods is obvious. Look into the historical record.
> Religions were created by difference civilizations - they almost ALL had
> them (note Buddhism and Confucianism do not believe in gods). In the
> ancient civilizations - the religion came and went with the
> civilization. As they were conquered and assimilated - the new religion
> might take on some of the aspects of the earlier ones - but as they
> progressed - they new one always had to have better whopper stories -
> and more power than YOUR god. But the most obvious aspect of
> religion is that they were militarily enforced upon the people.
> Today - there are still countries where it is a death penalty offense
> to question the countries religion.
>
> People are not born believing in gods - like discrimination :
>
> you have to be taught to hate and fear -
> you have to be taught from year to year
> You have to be taught before its too late
> Before you are six or seven or eight
> TO hate all the things your relatives hate
>
> You have to be carefully taught.
>
> IF it were actually true - why would force be needed.
> Why are you taught NOT to ask questions?
Good points. If you search my website, you'll
find plenty of support for all those, and more.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>>Any good books out there on how God does
>>what God is purported to do, from the standpoint
>>of physics?
> No. Such books would be heresay and not evidence of GOD
> just as Darwin's book is heresay and not evidence of evolution.
Another poster pointed out your error
regarding hearsay.
As for having nothing on God physics,
that's simply because all the ancient
writings you're basing your life on had
supernaturalistic biases, and looked
outside of our natural world for both
explanations of the here and now, and
for hope that things might be better
after death, and for threats that things
might be worse after death.
All of that, based on human imagination
and deceit, and on the ability of humans
to transfer their beliefs to their children
as if their beliefs had merit just by having
them, rather than on substantial evidence
that they were true or worthy.
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
>> [...]
> [...]
jc
wrote:
> In sci.med.cardiology a mixed up Andrew B. Chung vomited out...
>
> > A world without God is a scientifically fact:
>
> >http://www.thegodmovie.com/
>
This looks like an interesting movie. Has anyone seen it?
-jc
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>
>>>Any good books out there on how God does
>>>what God is purported to do, from the standpoint
>>>of physics?
>
>> No. Such books would be heresay and not evidence of GOD
>> just as Darwin's book is heresay and not evidence of evolution.
>
>Another poster pointed out your error
>regarding hearsay.
Without the LORD, their opinion and yours are meaningless
(Ecclesiastes).
Jesus is LORD :-)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5f6ca8a70d9e98d0?
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://EmoryCardiology.com
Dr. Jackanapes MD/PhD
In alt.flame.jesus.christ jc vomited out...
Netflix shipped it out to me this morning. I hope to be watching it this
Saturday. I'll let you know how it is. Has anyone else seen Chung's
favorite movie The God Who Wasn't There?
Yeah, I know - it's actually his second favorite movie after Casper: The
Holey Ghost vs Bob Pastorio.
--
St. Jackanapes
- http://www.voy.com/20630/
---------------------------------------
Doc Chung's Cat Suey Café...
- http://www.jackanapes.ws/2pdcat.html
---------------------------------------
- "I form the light, and create darkness.
- I make peace, and create EVIL.
- I the LORD do all these things." ? Isaiah 45.7.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
... for us to be here, on this earth, at this time, with
the presence of everything needed for humans to
exist.
That could be debated from several standpoints, but
I'll approach it from the following single view, in this
post ...
If the chances of there being something like 'us' was 1 in
a million since the 'big bang' -and- there were a million
to the millionth power of total'openings/possibilities' for
something like 'us', ever (in other words, what one might
think of as an all-but infinite --if not infinite-- number of
chances for there to be an 'us', ever) ...
... Well then, it would be quite astonishing if not even
one of something like 'us' ever existed.
... Point in fact, the closer one gets to infinite 'open-
ings/possibilities', given *any* chance of something
like 'us', a naturalistic entity in a naturalistic cosmos,
it becomes all-but certain something like 'us' will, in
fact, exist at some point in a physical world, con-
strained by physical law, and probable that multiple
instances of something like 'us' would exist over the
all-but endless --if not endless-- sojourn throughout
all that ever was, is, or ever will be ...
... You might think of it as the all-but certainty of 'us'
or something like 'us' existing many times over given
a much greater and all-but limitless --if not limitless--
'open set' - the realm of possibilities limited only by
the physics of all that is or all that has been or ever
can be, anywhere, any when, any way, any time, any
place, any dimension, ever ...
- - -
A recent theory that includes a possibility of an 'open set',
in this case, viewing our presence at this time in this part
of the cosmos as a result of a 'cyclic universe' ...
http://tinyurl.com/jyh1
- - -
Some Glaring Flaws With the Attribution of a God
As the Default Explanation for Us 'Beating the Odds' ...
Some say 'oh, there must be a god because the odds
against us existing are so high and, hey, here we are'.
Some glaring flaws of that position are the assumptions
that we exist within a finite set, a finite time (only possible
since the big bang or since god said ... let there be light),
a closed cosmos (all that is or that can be bounded by all
that occurred in our dimension since the big bang or since
god said ... let there be light) ...
.... In other words, a view that 'this is it - the first and only
shot at it, ever', and all we can detect is all that ever was
and all we do not -or- cannot know is 'the supernatural'.
With all those 'limitations/assumptions', they then boast
that the odds of 'us' being here are only applicable to that
finite set of possibilities (what they think of as all that is,
ever has been, or ever could be).
Given a big bang (or a god / let there be light event), they
assume that the events which transpired were the beginning
of all events (i.e., they assume eternal nothingness [aside
from god, of course] prior to the big bang and our uni-
verse as the entire set, all that is / has been / ever can be) ...
However, as theoretical physics and exploration of the
quantum world has unveiled, there are many naturalistic
theories that unveil the 'open set' I refer to above, the
big bang as being nothing but an event, one of an all-but
infinite --if not infinite-- number of events, along the con-
tinuum of the fabric of all that is / has been / ever will be.
Much of theoretical physics entails exploration of the
possibilities, nay, probabilities of multiple dimensions,
multiple universes, alternate physics, and, in essence,
a cosmic continuum of which our 'little' universe and
'time' are but a minute part, very important to us, but
nevertheless, all-but infinitely tiny within the all-but infinite
--if not infinite-- 'open set'.
- - -
Odds - Looked at Another Way
Another way of looking at it is if the odds of an indivi-
dual winning a lottery is 1 in 57 million, and an individual
wins a lottery, that event is totally comprehensible from
the standpoint of physics and mathematics, as a result
of all that has been and all that is, a naturalistic continuum
entailing many random events and happenstance ...
.... Trying to add a supernatural entity to the picture
may make for a nice 'self-serving' claim for some
folks ('God led the winner to purchase the ticket' or
'God chose the winner' might be claimed), but point
in fact, those claims are best understood as reflections
of human desire to credit an immortality-granting super-
being for 'good things' to try to decrease discomfort
with death, increase self-importance/ego, and elevate
social status by imparting a thumb's up to the perceived
icon of 'good things' in a particular society.
- - -
Consideration of Multiple Instances of Sentient Life
at this Time in Our Particular Universe
To sum up, given all of the above, we're still left with
the incalculably v-------------------------------------
a-----------------------------------------------s-----
---------------------------------t beyond vast distances
between entities capable of life within our tiny portion of
space/time/matter/energy within the 'open set' ...
.... Even if sentient life were present at the current time
in only 1 of every 100,000 solar systems (note - 1 in
100,000 is quite an arbitrary figure used for example
purposes ... the actual frequency of sentient life may
be much higher or much lower), given that the number
of solar systems is estimated (again, arbitrary estimate
based on recent discoveries of the likelihood that solar
systems are quite likely a naturalistic element of a high
percentage of star systems) to be something on the
order of ...
80 billion (~number of galaxies in the universe)
X 100 billion (~average solar systems per galaxy)
8,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (8 sextillion)
total solar systems in the universe
do the math - the universe would then contain
80,000,000,000,000,000 (80 quadrillion) solar
systems with sentient life
However, keep in mind that due to the vast beyond
vast distances between galaxies and between solar
systems within galaxies, almost all of that sentient
life is beyond our reach - in fact, the only sentient
life we could even dream of contacting without
such fancy things as worm holes and the warping
of space, are within our single lonely galaxy, the
Milky Way.
In essence, 79,999,999,999 galaxies beyond our
reach, and only 1 with any hope of 'contact' ...
within that one galaxy, how many solar systems
with sentient life based on the 1 in 100,000 formula
above?
1 million ... wow ...
However, we're still talking vast distances here and
a small fraction of solar systems with sentient life,
so we best get busy looking if we ever expect to
find even one of the (possibly) vast numbers of
sentient beings in our galaxy, and as for contacting
them ... and/or hearing from them ... well ... don't
hold your breath, even within our single galaxy, the
distances between solar systems with sentient life
are so great that we may never be able to have
meaningful contact with even one sentient creature
apart from our itsy bitsy piece of the cosmos, our
home, mother earth ...
- - -
The human mind struggles to grasp the signficance (or
relative insignificance) of our place in the universe when
taking into consideration the vast numbers of stars, solar
systems, pulsars, quasars, unknowns, dark matter, planets,
galaxies, black holes, and the vast beyond vast distances
between every single entity ... here's a small sampling try-
ing to put it into something the human mind can compre-
hend ...
- - - - - - Size of the Universe - - - - - -
A perspective on the size of the universe...
If the entire solar system were reduced to the size of a grain
of sand, our Milky Way galaxy would be *21 kilometers*
across and our nearest big galaxy, Andromeda, would be
*483 kilometers* away. The size of the observable universe,
on this scale, would be *over 4 million kilometers*.
A quote from -Imagining the Universe: A Visual Journey- ...
"Although the universe may be finite, it is unbounded. No
matter where one is, one appears to be at its center. We
cannot talk usefully about what lies beyond the limits of
the universe, because space itself can only be defined by
the matter it contains. As to what matter space does contain
there is great mystery. Most of the matter in space--perhaps
90 percent of it--is invisible."
Update (July 23, 2003): Dark energy's rush to turn off universe
http://tinyurl.com/i5vm [link no longer available]
Excerpt: "... a mysterious force called dark energy ... is
pushing the universe apart, faster and faster. Only 4 per
cent of the universe is made up of the ordinary material
of planets and stars. Another 26 percent is invisible dark
matter. The remainder [70 percent] is dark energy. ... Dark
energy is the big mystery in physics right now. It's the most
important thing in the universe, as there's more of it than
anything else. ... The team revealed the imprint of dark
energy by combining their map of millions of galaxies with
findings from NASA's Microwave Anistropy Probe. NASA
scientists last February produced a map of the universe
a mere 380,000 years after the Big Bang 13.7 billion years
ago. ..."
---
Radius of the Earth = 6,400 kilometers
Distance to the Moon = 400,000 kilometers
Distance to the Sun = 150,000,000 (150 million) kilometers
Distance to Pluto = 6,000,000,000 (6 billion) kilometers
Distance to Proxima Centauri (our nearest star apart from
the sun) = 40,000,000,000,000 (40 trillion) kilometers
Number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy =
most estimates have the figure pegged at
400,000,000,000 (400 billion)
Distance to Sirius (the brightest star in the
sky) = 80,000,000,000,000 (80 trillion) kilometers
Size of the Milky Way galaxy =
450,000,000,000,000,000 (450 quadrillion) kilometers
Number of galaxies similar to the Milky Way galaxy
in the universe = over 100,000,000 (100 million)
Number of galaxies in the universe (total of all
kinds) = over 80,000,000,000 (80 billion)
Number of stars in the visible universe (total of
all kinds) = over 70,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (70 sextillion)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3085885.stm
Distance to the Andromeda galaxy, the nearest
big galaxy (to the Milky Way galaxy) =
21,000,000,000,000,000,000 (21 quintillion) kilometers
The Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies are part of
the "local" galaxy cluster of about 30 galaxies, the
size of which is =
30,000,000,000,000,000,000 (30 quintillion) kilometers
The size of the observable universe =
180,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (180 sextillion) kilometers
- - -
Numeric reference chart:
1 kilometer = 0.62 miles
American system used for large numbers:
million ... number followed by 6 zeroes
billion ... number followed by 9 zeroes
trillion ... number followed by 12 zeroes
quadrillion ... number followed by 15 zeroes
quintillion ... number followed by 18 zeroes
sextillion ... number followed by 21 zeroes
- - -
But If Something Like 'Us' is Likely to Exist in
an 'Open Set', Why Doesn't the Same Logic
Apply to a God?
The 'open set' refers to the naturalistic physical
cosmos of all that ever was, is, or ever will be. As
to all its properties, that is yet unknown but is open
to exploration and scientific theory, including that
existing within the area of mathematics and that
which is explorable within the areas of physical
law.
As for God, as defined by most in cultures that
ascribe to a 'non-cyclic one and only' universe,
it contradicts the 'open set'.
Most folks, while comfortable with the odds of
a God being greater than zero, imagine God to
actually be the creator of the physical world, an
entity apart from the physical world, always exis-
tent, not a result of natural law, but instead, a part
of supernatural omnipotence, quite a different
conjecture altogether than are the odds of some-
thing like 'us' existing, ever, within an 'open set'
consisting of all-but limitless --if not limitless--
chances for something like 'us' to exist, ever.
The constraint of the 'open set' is physical law,
not unlimited possibilities for anything including
that outside the scope of physical law (i.e., that
which is called supernatural or make believe or
God) actually existing.
Something like 'us', considered purely as a phys-
ical construct, a result of a naturalistic cosmos,
with limitations within the boundaries of physical
law, a naturalistic entity, a reality, is an entirely
different point of consideration than is something
like a God or a comic book character being real
rather than imaginary ... scientists have yet to find
a God existing anywhere other than in the imagina-
tion of the human brain.
One suspects that the God concept is an outgrowth
of our evolution and would be wise to consider the
way in which the human brain was slowly turned on
(through hundreds of millions of years of evolution)
when viewed from the current position of the species,
-and-
the way in which the human brain of every surviving
fertilized human egg is slowly turned on during gesta-
tion, barely starting to work many weeks after con-
ception, trying to make sense of its dark/mysterious/
wet world in which sounds and nourishment are its
initial introduction to what will become, if it's lucky,
an exit through an incredibly tiny space into a myster-
ious world in which large beings are scurrying about
and babbling strange sounds that are much clearer
now than they were back in the good ol' wet womb
days ... and ... ahhh, a nipple, must have nipple ...
hmmmmmmm, go(o)d ...
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5f6ca8a70d9e98d0?
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human geneticist and molecular biologist
http://WDJW.net
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
... well, not really from not-quite nothing, more like
from a world that's theoretically everywhere and
every'when' while at the same time nowhere in our
substantive experience, a world that has always been
and will always be, the sub-atomic quantum world ...
Profound question for you - if we are a natural form
of matter that has evolved to its current state of being
over billions of years, wouldn't it be logical that such
a 'caused' form of matter would struggle to compre-
hend 'non-caused' states of being?
Theists call everything outside (and to varying degrees,
inside) the macro world "God" or "God-caused" and
assign "God" all sorts of miraculous human-centric
characteristics, mating to aspects of ancient myth that
have survived and rejecting aspects which have died
a natural death. For theists, there never was "no God".
Science is substantially more reliable when it comes to
demonstrating quantum physics (and naturalistic law)
than theists are in claiming "God did it".
As for human limitations and our desire to "know all" ...
The whole 'before' "our" physics area reminds me of most
humans' reluctance to realistically deal with our limitations
as a naturally evolved being in a mysterious natural world,
with many still using myths to explain unknowns based on
the intellectual level of a child.
Oh, we can understand how an ant has limitations or even
a bonobo or chimp has limitations, but our own limitations,
we seem genetically programmed to deny them, and our
invention of "God" is evidence of our boundless ego/de-
sire to know/control everything, no matter the natural limita-
tions of that which makes us what we are.
Since we, disbelievers, have that same genetic instruction
(know no limits) and we've dropped the god stuff, we face
the unknowns with a hunger/desire to know more (all we
can) thru whatever naturalistic means we have available to
us, deeply unsatisfied with god as a cop-out tool for trying
to explain unknowns.
Will that hunger/desire ever leave us?
Not in our current form, but perhaps we will create some
intelligent or multi-telligent entity(ies) that can in reality tran-
scend our current limitations and enter an area of knowledge,
comprehension, and understanding we, in our current form,
can only dream of.
About that dream ...
To those of faith, that dream is called "God" and is often
acted out in a bizarre revelation of our origins from ignorance
via "God cants" in ceremony / language / social/cultural cus-
toms and rituals. Doubt of "God" is not often received well.
Open-minded search for reasons for existence apart from
"God" (or leveraged off of anything other than "God" being
involved somehow) are often strongly discouraged via threats
involving "God" being displeased about or actually harming
humans who dare to doubt or disbelieve in "God".
To we of non-faith, that dream is of how we can probe the
mysterious and as yet unknown to reveal the verity regarding
our place in a natural world of wonder. To we of non-faith,
always probing/seeking, pondering/exploring, *no* answer
is *final*, for we're ever-curious in going farther, knowing
more about who and what we really are.
Food for thought, in short and long versions, follows ...
- - -
Short version:
Excerpt from "After The First Three Minutes: The
Story of Our Universe", by T. Padmanabhan
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521620392
"Given a description of a quantized universe, we
should be able to ask questions about the 'creation'.
The most important question is: 'Why is there a
universe at all? Why is there all this matter?'
Classical cosmology offers us no explanation:
given a certain amount of matter in the universe,
classical cosmology merely traces it back to the
big bang and then throws up its hands, being at
a loss to explain further! ...
Some of the quantum mechanical models of the
universe do give an answer. One can show -- in
these models -- that equations describing such
a universe *do not allow* an empty universe.
In other words, quantum cosmology not only
describes a universe with matter in it, but
actually demands that there should be matter
in it. In these models, empty space becomes
unstable due to the quantum fluctuations of the
gravitational field and makes a spontaneous
transition into an expanding universe filled
with matter. ...
It would, of course, be very wrong to say that
all that needs to be known is known. At best,
quantum cosmology is in its infancy. Several links
in the chain of arguments need to be strengthened
and several gaps need to be filled. All the same,
combining quantum theory and general relativity,
two major intellectual triumphs of this century,
seems to lead us to a far richer and more beautiful
vision of our universe."
- - -
Long version:
Where Did the Universe Come From? *The Simple Answer*
Philosophers have struggled with this question for many
millennia.
Theologians have grappled with it in a never-ending quest
to spin a god or (with the advent of science) an intelligent
designer (code name for god) as THE logical explanation
for our existence.
Creationists, well, their problem/fantasy is well known.
Could there be a simple answer to a question of immense
importance regarding our place in the universe?
Yes and No.
Simple, when explained in a careful and simplistic manner.
Difficult to grasp when you get into the complex science
required.
Let's look at it from a simple basis. *The Answer* to
anyone who spins a logical intelligent designer theory or
religion at you....
Excerpt from "After The First Three Minutes: The Story
of Our Universe", by T. Padmanabhan
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0521620392
Given a description of a quantized universe, we should
be able to ask questions about the 'creation'. The most
important question is: 'Why is there a universe at all?
Why is there all this matter?'
Classical cosmology offers us no explanation: given
a certain amount of matter in the universe, classical
cosmology merely traces it back to the big bang and
then throws up its hands, being at a loss to explain
further! An empty and uneventful space is as acceptable
to classical theory as all the richness of our evolving
universe.
Some of the quantum mechanical models of the universe
do give an answer. One can show -- in these models -- that
equations describing such a universe *do not allow* an
empty universe. In other words, quantum cosmology not
only describes a universe with matter in it, but actually
demands that there should be matter in it.
In these models, empty space becomes unstable due to
the quantum fluctuations of the gravitational field and
makes a spontaneous transition into an expanding universe
filled with matter.
You may think that creating matter and making it expand
would require some amount of energy, and hence if
matter came out of 'empty space' we would be violating
the conservation of energy -- which is a cherished principle
in physics.
In fact, this is *the* question which had plagued several
philosophers: how can something emerge from nothing?
Actually there is no violation of energy conservation in
this process. Remember that the gravitational field has
negative energy because it can bind matter together (we
saw earlier that the electron bound to a proton exists
in a state with negative energy; any attractive force will
share this feature and gravitational force is always
attractive).
So we can easily come up with a situation in which
the negative gravitational energy exactly balances the
positive energy of matter (and expansion), thereby
keeping the total energy zero.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The equations of quantum cosmology indicate that
the universe has essentially sprung spontaneously
from the vacuum due to quantum fluctuations.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
This might seem a very bizarre phenomenon unless you
properly grasp the subtleties of quantum-mechanical
descriptions of the universe. The vacuum of quantum
theory is not the 'mere emptiness' of classical theory.
Instead it is bristling with elementary particles constantly
being created and destroyed, and fields which fluctuate
incessantly.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The mathematics of these models indicate that such
a state of affairs *can* lead to the creation of a
material world.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
It would, of course, be very wrong to say that all
that needs to be known is known. At best, quantum
cosmology is in its infancy. Several links in the chain
of arguments need to be strengthened and several
gaps need to be filled.
All the same, combining quantum theory and general
relativity -- two major intellectual triumphs of this
century -- seems to lead us to a far richer and more
beautiful vision of our universe.
- - -
Another perspective ...
Sunday, March 25, 2001
SUNDAY BOOK REVIEW
Something from Nothing
http://www.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-Books-X!ArticleDetail-26133,00.html
[link no longer active]
Excerpt:
"... Today many physicists believe that nothingness
is the foundation of everything, not just the arena in
which matter resides but the substrate from which
matter is actually constructed.
As physicists envision the universe now, everything
that exists is ultimately just a complex enfolding of
the underlying substrate of empty space.
This vision presents the universe, as English physicist
Paul Davies has summed it up, as 'nothing but struc-
tured nothingness.'
Indeed, it might be said that one way of characterizing
the history of modern physics is the gradual rise in the
status of nothing from anathema to supreme principle.
Small wonder, then, that in the last 18 months there have
been several books that have chronicled the history of
nothing and our changing attitudes to this most enigmatic
concept. ...
[skip section on history, including theological and multi-
cultural history of perspectives on nothingness]
Over the last century an eerie parallel has also been found
in physics, for physicists now believe that everything in
our universe--every speck of matter and every active force--
arose from the nothingness of empty space.
One of the most important stories of modern science has
been the gradual folding of more and more elements of
our world-picture into the fabric of space.
Einstein began the process, inadvertently it must be said,
by revealing with his general theory of relativity that gravity
could be understood as a byproduct of the underlying
curvature of space.
Unlike Newton, for whom gravity remained the ultimate
mystery, Einstein's theory places the origin of this funda-
mental force in the architecture of the void.
Both Barrow and Seife describe this astonishing insight,
which remains physics' most compelling and mystical
achievement.
That something as powerful as gravity--the force which
holds our planet in orbit around the sun and our sun in
orbit around the galaxy--could be a byproduct of empty
space seems to defy reason.
The equations of general relativity even allow, as Barrow
tells us, for the existence of empty universes: vast ex-
panses of space and time devoid of matter and energy.
Physicists refer to these as 'vacuum' universes.
Such a world would be Augustine's nightmare, a pure
and purposeless void, in the most profound sense.
But the pure void of general relativity is itself an abstrac-
tion; physicists have since discovered that the vacuum is
far from empty.
That other great pillar of 20th-century physics, quantum
mechanics, showed us that the vacuum is teaming with
'virtual' particles ...
[skip section trying to relate history and modern aspects
of quantum theory, including superstring theory, with
philosophy, theology, and theoretical physics]"
--- end excerpt ---
The Book of Nothing : Vacuums, Voids, and the
Latest Ideas About the Origins of the Universe
by John D. Barrow
Hardcover - 416 pages (April 17, 2001)
Pantheon Books; ISBN: 0375420991
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375420991
Review Excerpt:
"... Arguably, the most important discovery of 20th-century
physics is that there is no such thing as nothing: even the
tightest vacuum is teeming with subatomic particles popping
in and out of existence, according to the dictates of quantum
theory.
Now, many astronomers suspect that such 'vacuum effects'
may have triggered the Big Bang itself, filling our universe
with matter. Indeed, the very latest observations suggest that
vacuum effects will dictate the ultimate fate of the universe. ..."
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5f6ca8a70d9e98d0?
Because GOD won't let him.
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://WDJW.net
jc
wrote:
> In alt.flame.jesus.christ jc vomited out...
>
>
>
> > On Mar 16, 7:47 pm, Dr. Jackanapes MD/PhD <webmas...@jackanapes.ws>
> > wrote:
> > > In sci.med.cardiology a mixed up Andrew B. Chung vomited out...
>
> > > > A world without God is a scientifically fact:
>
> > > >http://www.thegodmovie.com/
>
> > This looks like an interesting movie. Has anyone seen it?
>
> > -jc
>
> Netflix shipped it out to me this morning. I hope to be watching it this
> Saturday. I'll let you know how it is. Has anyone else seen Chung's
> favorite movie The God Who Wasn't There?
>
Let us know how it is. The review didn't look so great.
-jc
> Yeah, I know - it's actually his second favorite movie after Casper: The
> Holey Ghost vs Bob Pastorio.
>
> --
> St. Jackanapes
> ---------------------------------------
> Doc Chung's Cat Suey Café...
> -http://www.jackanapes.ws/2pdcat.html
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
As many have demonstrated that they desire a God, and
they wish, apparently, to derive that God from an area
leveraged within a scientific "origin of the universe" para-
meter, in a deistic or theistic kind of way, we're down to
a specified locale for unknowns, in a similar manner as
we would be were we to be talking to a farmer who
believed in God (and/or gods, demons, spirits) 11,000
years ago. That farmer's God (and/or gods/demons,
spirits) would be an attempt to answer all unknowns
for him, in areas that he had little understanding of -or-
explanation for.
We might be able to explain things naturalistically to him,
revealing to him the way the world worked in a naturalistic
way, but at whatever point we were willing to say we just
don't know - yet, sure 'nuf, both he and deistic/theistic
folks in the modern day would cling to a God (and/or
gods, demons, spirits) in that place ...
... unless, at that point, instead of a God (and/or gods,
demons, spirits) an awareness set in that really, a willing-
ness to say "unknown and explorable" was far more ful-
filling, enriching, verity-seeking, open-minded, and inspir-
ational than the alternative.
If "unknown and explorable" is the choice of those who,
despite deistic/theistic backgrounds, wish to explore and
learn about the universe with an open mind, I commend
those folks and provide this series of posts to expand the
scope of knowledge regarding that which is possible within
the parameters of a naturalistic cosmos.
If, on the other hand, God-of-the-Gaps is the choice of
those with deistic/theistic backgrounds, I provide the fol-
lowing to both expand the scope of knowledge regarding
that which is possible within the parameters of a natural-
istic cosmos -and- for consideration in determining where
it is, exactly, that those with deistic/theistic leanings wish
to place their God-of-the-Gaps, the ever-shrinking gaps
that I expect, some day, science will convincingly reveal
to be a never-ending always existing quantum infinity with
no God (and/or gods, demons, spirits) desired or required.
That's not to say that we or our symbiotic creations or our
roboticized multi-telligent creations or advanced aliens will
ever know "all", but that is to say that it's impossible, and
I submit, illogical, to assert that whatever we know (ever)
will not be demonstrated in such a manner as to eliminate
a God-of-the-Gaps ...
- - -
-insert-
Will the mysteries of universe(s) origin(s) be solved via
wisdom from an Owl?
Astronomy's next big thing
Monday, 8 July, 2002, 16:21 GMT 17:21 UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_2116000/2116605.stm
Excerpt: The Owl (Overwhelmingly Large Telescope)
is an awesome project which requires international effort
to make it happen. This huge telescope - its main mirror
would be more than 100 metres across - would have a
predicted resolution 40 times better than the Hubble
Space Telescope and a sensitivity several thousand times
greater.
... "It would open an enormous new window on the Uni-
verse, allowing you to detect the presence of oxygen if
there is any on Earth-like planets around nearby stars. "It
would allow you to see exploding stars out to the edge of
the Universe. It would really be a 'quantum' jump in our
understanding of the Universe."
-end insert-
- - -
For example, Paul Davies' God (reference: "The Mind of
God") is limited by Paul's theistic upbringing (he currently
seems to be kind of deistic) and his perceptions which
inhibit him from using his amazing mind, and persuasive
ability, to end his adventures involving a God-of-the-Gaps.
Even though I disagree with his deism, I respect his views
when he constrains himself within the world of the natural.
I used his book to describe the Hartle and Hawking theory
that's in the 2nd post in this series of 7 posts ...
- - -
Posts in this series:
Universe(s) Origin(s) Preface
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/universes_origins_preface.htm
Universe(s) Origin(s) - 1 of 7
}}} String Theory / Infinities / Singularities {{{
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/universes_origins_1_of_7.htm
Universe(s) Origin(s) - 2 of 7
}}} No Origin of the Universe? {{{
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/universes_origins_2_of_7.htm
Universe(s) Origin(s) - 3 of 7
}}} Multiverse? {{{
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/universes_origins_3_of_7.htm
Universe(s) Origin(s) - 4 of 7
}}} Universes from Black Holes? {{{
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/universes_origins_4_of_7.htm
Universe(s) Origin(s) - 5 of 7
}}} Cyclic Universe? {{{
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/universes_origins_5_of_7.htm
Universe(s) Origin(s) - 6 of 7
}}} Einstein / Big Bang / Superstrings {{{
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/universes_origins_6_of_7.htm
Universe(s) Origin(s) - 7 of 7
}}} Nothing / Everything {{{
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/universes_origins_7_of_7.htm
Thommadura
>
> As many have demonstrated that they desire a God,
No - many have not demonstrated this one
Prove it.
MarkA
>
> In alt.flame.jesus.christ jc vomited out...
>
>>
>> On Mar 16, 7:47 pm, Dr. Jackanapes MD/PhD <webmas...@jackanapes.ws>
>> wrote:
>> > In sci.med.cardiology a mixed up Andrew B. Chung vomited out...
>> >
>> > > A world without God is a scientifically fact:
>> >
>> > >http://www.thegodmovie.com/
>> >
>>
>> This looks like an interesting movie. Has anyone seen it?
>>
>> -jc
>
> Netflix shipped it out to me this morning. I hope to be watching it this
> Saturday. I'll let you know how it is. Has anyone else seen Chung's
> favorite movie The God Who Wasn't There?
>
I've seen TGWWT. It was informative, and well-produced. He lays out the
case for the non-existence of a historical Jesus. Certainly, a lot of
scholars would take issue with some of his points, but he does show that
the question of Jesus' existence is not the slam-dunk the Christians think
it is.
--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
"Thommadura" <tomm...@optonline.net> wrote ...
> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
Religions : Origins, Geographical Distribution,
Populations/Percentages
(Top Posts - History - 070400)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/religions_origins.htm
List of current religions *and* list of early civilizations, most of
which had some form of religion.
No discredit is intended towards the Barbarians, Celtics, Goths,
Visigoths, Vikings, Mochicans, Chavins, Mongols, Heathens,
Polynesians, Aboriginees, Southeast Asians, Africans, Amer-
ican Indians, Moches, Nazcas, Gauls, Germanic tribes, Scotts,
Macedonians, Paracas, Druids, Dorians, Athenians, Byzantians,
Normans, Armeans, Brahamanas, Upanishades, Medians, Tar-
tars, Tudors, Shiites, Caliphates, Shogunates, Jesuits, Zulus,
Toltecs, Shamans, and other groups not included in the following
list.
Suffice it to say, it's difficult to get a handle on *all* of world history
and religions and this is a somewhat modest attempt at putting all
of the information together.
Thanks to the following reference sources:
HyperHistory Online
http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n2/History_n2/a.html
Running Press Cyclopedia
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561386618
Time Almanac 1999
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1883013461
Mayas - History
http://www.anthro.mankato.msus.edu/LatinAmerica/meso/cultures/maya.htm
Olmecs - History
http://www.anthro.mankato.msus.edu/LatinAmerica/meso/cultures/olmec.htm
Aztecs - History
http://www.anthro.mankato.msus.edu/LatinAmerica/meso/cultures/aztec_empire.htm
Incas - History
http://www.anthro.mankato.msus.edu/LatinAmerica/south/cultures/inca.htm
Tarascans - History
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/history/tarasco.html
List of early civilizations/religions and current religions, in order
by start or found date (inclusive of most; apologies in advance
for not including *every* religion and civilization in history):
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Duh-I dunnoism (started with the origin of Homo sapiens sapiens
around 130,000 years ago.... just joking :)
Sumerians (started close to 5,200 years ago - ended close to 4,360
years ago)
Minoans (started close to 5,000 years ago - ended close to 3,100
years ago)
Indus Valley (started close to 5,000 years ago - ended close to 3,500
years ago)
Egyptians (started close to 4,850 years ago - ended close to 2,715
years ago, the ancient version of Egyptian civilization, that is)
Akkadians (started close to 4,350 years ago - ended close to 4,230
years ago)
China (1st origin of kings by Hsia family close to 4,200 years ago;
1st writing appears in Shang dynasty close to 3,300 years ago; Chou
kings take over Shang dynasty close to 3,000 years ago - Chou kings
told those they had conquered that they, the Chou, had ousted the
ancestors of Shang kings from heaven and that heaven was occupied
by their supreme god, a god they called "The Lord on High," who,
they said, had commanded the downfall of the Shang kings. Like
emperors in West Asia, Chou kings claimed that they ruled by
divine right. Chou rulers admitted into their pantheon of gods some
of the gods of Shang civilization... Chou rulers fell out of power
close to 2,771 years ago)
Judaism (founded close to 4,000 years ago by Hebrews)
Mayas (started close to 4,000 years ago - ended close to 500
years ago)
Assyrians (started close to 3,800 years ago - ended close to 2,889
years ago)
Babylonians (started close to 3,728 years ago - ended 3,686 years
ago; restarted 2,625 years ago - re-ended 2,539 years ago)
Hittites (started close to 3,640 years ago - ended close to 2,200
years ago)
Hinduism (founded close to 3,500 years ago by Aryan invaders of India)
Olmecans (started close to 3,200 years ago - ended close to 1,400
years ago)
Phoenicians (started close to 3,100 years ago - ended close to 2,332
years ago)
Phrygians (started close to 3,000 years ago - ended close to 2,547
years ago)
Etruscans (started close to 2,900 years ago - ended close to 2,396
years ago)
Greeks (started close to 2,900 years ago - ended close to 2,200
years ago, the ancient version of Greek civilization, that is)
Medes (started close to 2,835 years ago - ended close to 2,550
years ago)
Scythians (started close to 2,800 years ago - ended close to 2,300
years ago)
Cimmerians (founded close to 2,750 years ago - ended close to 2,500
years ago)
Lydians (founded close to 2,750 years ago - ended close to 2,547
years ago)
Shintoism (founded around 2,660 years ago in Japan)
Zoroastrianism (founded 2,600 years ago by Persian prophet Zoroaster)
Taoism (founded over 2,600 years ago in China by Lao Zi)
Confucianism (founded over 2,600 years ago by Kongzi)
Jainism (founded over 2,600 years ago by Vradhamana Mahavira)
Persians (started close to 2,559 years ago - ended close to 2,330
years ago)
Buddhism (founded 2,500 years ago by Prince Sidhartha Gautama)
Romans (started close to 2,500 years ago - ended close to 1,700
years ago)
Christianity (started ~1,950 years ago by some christ sects,
the longest surviving of which was started by Paul, based on
Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Roman and Greek hero worship,
Judaism, and a melange of other "religions/christ cults/sects"
circulating at the time)
Roman Catholic Church (started by some christ sects ~1,950
years ago)
Islam (founded close to 1,300 years ago by Mohammed)
Orthodox Churches (founded over 940 years ago)
Tarascans (started close to 900 years ago - ended close to 470 years ago)
Incas (started close to 800 years ago - ended close to 460 years ago)
Aztecs (started close to 570 years ago - ended close to 480 years ago)
Sikhism (founded over 500 years ago in India by Guru Nanak)
Church of England (founded over 460 years ago)
Lutheran Church (founded over 460 years ago)
Presbyterian Churches (founded over 460 years ago)
Baptists (founded over 390 years ago)
Unitarianism (founded over 350 years ago)
Society of Friends-Quakers (founded over 300 years ago)
Methodism (founded over 260 years ago)
Episcopal Church, offshoot of the Church of England (founded
over 210 years ago)
Church of Christ (founded over 190 years ago)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints - Mormons (founded
over 160 years ago)
Seventh-Day Adventists (founded almost 140 years ago)
Bahai Faith (founded over 130 years ago by Mirza Hosein)
Christian Science (founded over 130 years ago)
Salvation Army (founded over 130 years ago)
Jehovah's Witnesses (founded over 100 years ago)
Pentecostal Churches-Charismatic Renewal (founded almost 100 years ago)
Rastafarianism (founded over 70 years ago by Marcus Garvey's "back
to Africa" movement)
Unification Church (founded over 40 years ago by Sun Myung Moon)
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
--- --- Religions and Non-Religions, Geographically Speaking --- ---
Analysis of dominant religions and non-religions based
on a detailed key-colored map in
Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0877790442
"Pockets" in the following data refer to ideologies shared
by at least 25 percent of inhabitants within areas of at least
1,000 square miles.
- - -
No Religion (mostly uninhabited) - Antarctica, pockets in the
rain forests of South America, large pockets in the Sahara
Desert of north Africa, pocket in far west China, large pockets
of central Australia, most of Greenland, far north Canada, and
the Arctic Circle.
---
Nonreligious - Most of eastern China, Korea, pocket of the
Czech Republic, Cuba, Zambia, southeast Congo, Belarus,
Ukraine, Moldavia, central Kazakhstan, and a central strip
of Russia from the northwest to the center of Russia, an area
which *excludes* north central / northeastern / eastern /
southeastern / south central / southwestern / western central
Russia.
---
Chinese and Korean Folk Religions, including Buddhism,
Taoism, Confucianism, and folk cults - pockets of eastern
China and Korea.
---
Japanese Religions, including Shinto and Buddhism - Japan
and islands south and southeast of Japan.
---
Buddhism - Western China, Mongolia, area of central
Russia on the northwest Mongolia border, Vietnam,
Cambodia, Thailand, Laos, Burma, far north India,
and southern Sri Lanka.
---
Hinduism - India, Nepal, northern Sri Lanka, islands
east of India, pocket in Guyana, and pocket in islands
in the south Pacific.
---
Indigenous (tribal) Religions - Much of southern Africa,
southern and western Madagascar, much of northern
Alaska, northwest Canada, northern Canada, areas of
Canada north and northeast of the Great Lakes, pockets
in rain forests of South America, strip of northern Russia
running to all of eastern Russia, pockets of Australia
and islands in the Pacific Ocean.
---
Sikhism - Pocket of north India south of Kashmir, and
large area of south central Russia north of Kazakhstan.
---
Judaism - Israel and pocket in New York City area.
---
Islam, predominantly Sunni - All of the Middle East
*excluding* Israel / east Iraq / Iran, all of north Africa,
most of Ethiopia, Somalia, Djibouti, Eritrea, pockets
in some southern African countries, pockets in Kosovo
and Bosnia, Albania, Turkey, Pakistan, Afghanistan,
Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Krygystan, south
Kazakhstan, an area of Russia east of Moscow (along
the Kazakhstan border), northwest China, Bangladesh,
Indonesia, north Madagascar, islands north of Mada-
gascar, and islands south of India.
---
Islam, predominantly Shi'ite - Iran, east Iraq, and pocket
in Yemen.
---
Independent Churches of Eastern Christianity, including
Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, East and West Syrian - large
area in Ethiopia, pocket in Egypt, and pocket in Holland.
---
Eastern Orthodox, including Greek and Russian Orthodox
Christianity - Greece, Serbia, Romania, pockets in east
Poland / Latvia / Lithuania, far northwest Russia along
the Finnish border, pockets in Belarus / the Ukraine /
Moldovia, west central and southwest Russia, northern
Kazakhstan, and southeast Russia along the Mongolian
and China border and in the Kamchatka Peninsula.
---
Roman Catholics - Most of South America and Latin
America, south and far west Texas, south and north
New Mexico, south Colorado, southern coastal area
of California, south Arizona, surrounding area of New
Orleans, pockets of the northern U.S., a large area from
Chicago up to Wisconsin, the northeast U.S., southeast
Canada, a pocket in west Alaska, Hawaii, a pocket in
Cuba, Ireland, Portugal, Spain, France, Belgium, Italy,
Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, part of Lithuania,
a pocket in Germany and the Czech Republic, pockets
in the west coast / central south area / east coast of
Africa, east central Madagascar, and islands in the Indian
and Pacific Oceans.
---
Protestants - most of the southern U.S. and the southern
midwest U.S.*excluding* south Texas / far west Texas /
the area around New Orleans / south Florida, most of
southern Alaska, most of west / south central / northeast
Canada, England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, southwest
Greenland, Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland,
pockets in Germany and Hungary, Namibia, southern
Nigeria, pockets in southern parts of Africa, a pocket in
Madagascar, most of Australia, pockets in New Zealand,
and islands in the Pacific Ocean.
---
Christianity, undifferentiated by branch, chiefly mingled
Protestantism and Roman Catholicism with neither
predominant - Most of the U.S. with the *exceptions*
noted for Roman Catholics and Protestants above and
for Mormons below, central Canada, Germany, Holland,
pockets in Estonia and Latvia, South Africa, pockets in
south central Africa, pockets on the east and west coasts
of Australia, New Zealand, and islands in the Pacific
Ocean.
---
Mormons - Great Salt Lake area of the U.S.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
--- --- Believer/Non-Believer Populations/Percentages --- ---
From the 1999 Time Almanac, figures based on United
Nations median variant figures for mid-1996:
Christians (total) .......... 1,955,229,000 .. 33.7%
Roman Catholic ............. 981,465,000 .. 16.9%
Protestant** .................. 404,020,000 ... 7.0%
Orthodox** ................... 218,350,000 ... 3.8%
Anglican ........................ 69,136,000 ..... 1.2%
Other .......................... 282,258,000 ...... 4.9%
Muslims (83% Sunnis,
16% Shiites, 1% other) ... 1,126,325,000 .. 19.4%
Nonreligious (no religion,
nonbelievers, agnostics,
atheists, freethinkers,
skeptics, antireligious) ..... 1,109,124,000 .. 19.1%
Hindus (70% Vaishnavites,
25% Shaivites, 2% neo-
Hindus & reform Hindus) ... 793,076,000 .. 13.7%
Buddhists (56% Mahayana,
38% Theravada,
6% Tantrayana) ................. 325,275,000 ... 5.6%
Chinese Folk Religionists
(local deities, ancestor
veneration, Confucian
ethics, Taoism, universism,
divination, some Buddhist
elements) ........................... 220,971,000 ... 3.8%
New Religionists (Asian
20th century new religions,
New Religious movements,
radical new crisis religions,
non-christian syncretistic
mass religions, all founded
since 1800 & most since
1945).................................. 106,016,000 ... 1.8%
Ethnic Religions .................. 102,945,000 ... 1.8%
Sikhs ................................... 19,508,000 ... 0.3%
Jews .................................... 13,866,000 ... 0.2%
Spiritists .............................. 10,293,000 ... 0.2%
Baha'is ................................. 6,404,000 ... 0.1%
Confucians ........................... 5,086,000 ... 0.1%
Jains ..................................... 4,920,000 ... 0.1%
Shintoists .............................. 2,898,000 ... ----
Other Religionists (including
70 minor world religions & a
large number of spiritist
religions, New Age religions,
quasi-religions, & religious
or mystic belief systems) ....... 1,952,000 ... ----
Parsees ................................. 191,000 ..... ----
Mandeans ............................. 45,000 ....... ----
**Protestant & Orthodox christians consist of many groups.
The following brief listing includes distinct non-Catholic groups
with over 2,000,000 members in the United States (listed in order
by membership size), based on information from The Yearbook
of American & Canadian Churches, 1998:
Southern Baptist, United Methodist, National Baptist-USA,
Church of God in Christ, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America,
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon), Presbyterian,
National Baptist-America, African Methodist Episcopal, Lutheran
Church-Missouri Synod, Episcopal, Progressive National Baptist,
National Missionary Baptist, Assemblies of God, Churches of
Christ, Orthodox Church of America
- - -
¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤ - ¤
~~~
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman
(Freethinking Realist Exploring
Expressive Liberty, Openness,
Verity, Enlightenment, & Rationality)
~~~
>> and they wish, apparently, to derive that God from an area
>> leveraged within a scientific "origin of the universe" para-
>> meter, in a deistic or theistic kind of way, we're down to
>> a specified locale for unknowns, in a similar manner as
>> we would be were we to be talking to a farmer who
>> believed in God (and/or gods, demons, spirits) 11,000
>> years ago. That farmer's God (and/or gods/demons,
>> spirits) would be an attempt to answer all unknowns
>> for him, in areas that he had little understanding of -or-
>> explanation for.
>>
>> [...]
Thommadura
>
> "Thommadura" <tomm...@optonline.net> wrote ...
>
>> Pro-Humanist FREELOVER wrote:
>
>>> As many have demonstrated that they desire a God,
>
>> No - many have not demonstrated this one
>>
>> Prove it.
>
> Religions : Origins, Geographical Distribution,
<snip>
Gee - a wonderful list of people who have gods forced on them
However - that is not basis for saying the people wanted them!
St. Jackanapes MD/PhD
In alt.flame.jesus.christ MarkA vomited out...
Thanks for the input! I've gotten the DVD from Netflix and hope to view
it tonight. Believe it or not, I have some Christian friends. When I ask
them for contemporary historical proof of Jesus they start blustering
and tell them that there's loads of it - why right in the Bible his
coming is prophesied! Of course you know what's wrong with that, and I
tell them why.
That's when almost each and every one of them trots out Josephus, as if
he is the iron clad proof that their zombie king did walk the Earth. In
these discussions I have to continually go back and give them the
definition of contemporary. I've been friends with them long enough that
although they leave frustrated and angry that I seem to have an answer
for everything that they bring up, they are still my friends. That
wouldn't be the case with the run of the mill Christian fanatic.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
While being mindful of our past written discussions:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/5f6ca8a70d9e98d0?
May reading the following help you understand the reality of GOD:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/b899ce5cc1a77d9d?
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
LORD." (Proverbs 16:33)
Amen.
A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/085dcffcafb7e4e2?
Nothing happens by chance because everything happens only as GOD
allows it (Ecclesiastes 9:11):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?
Sign that GOD can easily unleash an H5N1 Pandemic (Pan-Flu) at any
time:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?
What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
catastrophic Pan-Flu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May you and other dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a
blessedly wonderful 2009th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus
Christ as our Messiah, the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
Hunger is the physical "hearts burning" feeling that unlocks the 4
mysteries of the "Road to Emmaus" adventure described in Luke 24:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
Moreover, being hungrier is the key to being Jesus' disciples:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Jesus is LORD, forever !!!
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier for mind, body, and soul:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3558812d72ab4e17?
Maxie Camus
neurogenic bladder and colon, some more really horrendous side effects
of diabetes? I am really interested in your input on the subject.
Thanks.........Maxi
MarkA
If you are already inclined to doubt the historical existence of Jesus,
you will *love* TGWWT.
--
MarkA
Keeper of the Butter Dish of Balshazar
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
Who created the universe?
The who question is a dance with no point and no
who to be found, except in the fertile imaginations
of believers in magic beings, the same locale that
primitives used to come up with the concepts of
magic beings in the first place.
That's the whole 'who' myth for you.
As for science, logic, and reason, ponder the follow-
ing, and no, there is no 'who' there, there is no 'never
was' there, there is no 'beginning of time' there, there
is no 'what's-a-whozits' prancing around the cosmos
whipping up things, there's just nature -- always --
everywhere, everywhen.
If one cannot fathom a cosmos without magic beings,
one is simply living in a fairyland, a mindtrap that many
refuse to try to escape from, for religious faiths, by and
large, demand that they refrain from doing so.
- - -
The Myth of the Beginning of Time
May 2004 issue, Scientific American
http://tinyurl.com/2f9du
Excerpts:
String theory suggests that the big bang was not the
origin of the universe but simply the outcome of a
preexisting state.
Was the big bang really the beginning of time?
Or did the universe exist before then?
Such a question seemed almost blasphemous only
a decade ago. Most cosmologists insisted that it simply
made no sense--that to contemplate a time before the
big bang was like asking for directions to a place north
of the North Pole.
But developments in theoretical physics, especially the
rise of string theory, have changed their perspective.
The pre-bang universe has become the latest frontier
of cosmology.
...
The ancient Greeks debated the origin of time fiercely.
Aristotle, taking the no-beginning side, invoked the prin-
ciple that out of nothing, nothing comes. If the universe
could never have gone from nothingness to something-
ness, it must always have existed. For this and other
reasons, time must stretch eternally into the past and
future.
Christian theologians tended to take the opposite point
of view. Augustine contended that God exists outside of
space and time, able to bring these constructs into exist-
ence as surely as he could forge other aspects of our
world. When asked, "What was God doing before he cre-
ated the world?" Augustine answered, "Time itself being
part of God's creation, there was simply no before!"
...
So, when did time begin? Science does not have a con-
clusive answer yet, but at least two potentially testable
theories plausibly hold that the universe--and therefore
time--existed well before the big bang. If either scenario
is right, the cosmos has always been in existence and,
even if it recollapses one day, will never end.
Maxie Camus
have more of your usual
good information. Thanks for responding.
I must confess that by introducing a possibly lengthy discussion topic I
was also trying to derail the influx of religious posts that are choking
our support group. We are letting it happen ----by not posting ---by
not fighting fire with fire. Unfortunately, I have wevtv, and don't
have the luxury of a killfile so I have to wade through dozens if not
hundreds of non-diabetic related items to find our good posters.
I too, read more often then I post. So,come on
Julie, Alan, Wendy. Grandpa Chuck, Quentin, Will, and you Susan, plus
the many, many more that this aging brain can't rattle off---lets fight
back. Post as much and as often as possible, even if its only about
your aching corns!
It just amazes me that all the invaders of our support group don't pool
their collective mental capabilities and start their own support group.
I am sure there are some great minds out there who could do just that,
without feeling that they should hijack a diabetic support group.
Maxi
St. Jackanapes MD/PhD
I wasn't inclined - I was already sure - But none the less it was an
excellent video! I liked the way he explained the time problems with
when Jesus was supposed to have lived - the time Paul was supposed to
have written his letters, where he didn't mention the Jesus birth & life
& death myths - and the late publishing of the Gospels. That was
explained very well I thought.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
<><
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
LORD." (Proverbs 16:33)
Amen.
A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/085dcffcafb7e4e2?
Nothing happens by chance because everything happens only as GOD
allows it (Ecclesiastes 9:11):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?
Sign that GOD can easily unleash an H5N1 Pandemic (Pan-Flu) at any
time:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?
What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
catastrophic Pan-Flu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a blessedly wonderful
2009th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus Christ as our Messiah,
the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
Hunger is the physical "hearts burning within us" feeling that unlocks
the 4 mysteries of the "Road to Emmaus" adventure described in Luke
24:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
Moreover, being hungrier is the key to being Jesus' disciples:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
Being physically hungrier is how we will physically recognize Jesus
when He physically returns for us to meet Him physically in the air:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ffa6609710ea9587?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Jesus is LORD, forever !!!
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier for mind, body, and soul:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
What does Jesus want (WDJW) ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/11194899724b810d?
Sanity's Little Helper
posteth:
> http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/518c33efe51560d7?
>
Whatever:
http://www.quackwatch.org/02ConsumerProtection/fraudreport.html
--
David Silverman
aa #2208
Defender of Civilisation
if a tree falls in the woods, what are the odds it will land in some bear
shit ?
Not authentic without this signature.
Anon
> Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Brahma rules.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
<><
Amen.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/085dcffcafb7e4e2?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ffa6609710ea9587?
Amen.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
Who was Robert G. Ingersoll?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=43367&tocid=0
Excerpt: "American politician and orator known as "the great
agnostic" who popularized the higher criticism of the Bible, as
well as a humanistic philosophy and a scientific rationalism."
Works of Robert G. Ingersoll
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/
Robert G. Ingersoll - An Intimate View
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/newton_baker/intimate_view.html
In an effort to pay Robert respect, using religious as a comple-
ment in a way of paying homage to Robert's values which were
antithetical to traditional religions ...
Excerpt: "..."Ingersoll was, I believe, the most profound ethical,
the most deeply spiritual, the most truly religious of men.
His was the only real religion,
-- the religion of goodness, of justice and of mercy,
-- the religion of Humanity and His whole life was one heroic
consecration to the furtherance of his religion.
I beg leave to repeat this all-important fact:
Ingersoll was a religious man
-- religious in the highest and holiest, the only true sense of the
term,
-- religious in his irrepressible and matchless zeal for truth,
-- religious in his love for and trust in humanity,
-- religious in his fine, intrepid fealty to facts, to justice and to
rectitude,
-- religious in his temperament of storm and fire,
-- religious in his splendid scorn of wrong, in his superb capacity
for wrath and for rebellion,
-- and religious in his peerless power for tenderness, for pity, and
for love; religious even in his fearless enmity to creed and cant, to
every form of futile dogma, ignorant theology and childish faith, to
base hypocrisy that masquerades as virtue and as truth."
- - - end excerpt - - -
Robert says "I don't deny, I do not know" but the only room he
leaves for a god is a god that is deistic-like / not mating to any
religion / not tied to any human-construction / apart from human
capabilities of comprehension.
His allowance leaves no room for any god of any human religion
(with the possible exceptions of some deistic/pantheistic type of
non-dogmatic non-interacting god), so to that extent, he's very
atheistic towards every god ever created and worshipped by
humans. He leaves an all-but infinitely tiny spot for some unde-
fined god of the unknown.
It's important to understand that Robert is, in essence, an Atheist
towards all gods other than the incomprehensible of the unknown.
In essence, god as generally recognized/discussed is the god of
religions and Robert is totally Atheistic towards religious gods.
- - -
Why I Am Agnostic, by Robert G. Ingersoll
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.html
Even though this book is titled 'Why I Am Agnostic', you can't
get more atheistic as applies to traditional religions and their holy
documents (both old and new testamyths) than the expressions
by Robert G. Ingersoll.
Excerpts from "Why I Am Agnostic", starting off with Robert
explaining a defining moment when he decided to totally turn
against the religion of his childhood/nation ...
- - -
Words from a sermon by a preacher: ... "Oh, my hearers, he has
been making that request for more than eighteen hundred years.
And millions of ages hence that wail will cross the gulf that lies
between the saved and lost and still will be heard the cry: 'Father
Abraham! Father Abraham! I pray thee send Lazarus that he may
dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my parched tongue, for
I am tormented in this flame.'"
For the first time I understood the dogma of eternal pain --
appreciated "the glad tidings of great joy." For the first time my
imagination grasped the height and depth of the Christian horror.
Then I said: "It is a lie, and I hate your religion. If it is true,
I hate your God."
From that day I have had no fear, no doubt. For me, on that
day, the flames of hell were quenched. From that day I have
passionately hated every orthodox creed. That Sermon did
some good. ...
It seems to me impossible for a civilized man to love or
worship, or respect the God of the Old Testament. A really
civilized man, a really civilized woman, must hold such a God
in abhorrence and contempt. ...
In the New Testament, death is not the end, but the beginning
of punishment that has no end. In the New Testament the
malice of God is infinite and the hunger of his revenge eternal.
The orthodox God, when clothed in human flesh, told his dis-
ciples not to resist evil, to love their enemies, and when smitten
on one cheek to turn the other, and yet we are told that this
same God, with the same loving lips, uttered these heartless,
these fiendish words; "Depart ye cursed into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels."
These are the words of "eternal love."
No human being has imagination enough to conceive of this
infinite horror. ...
This frightful dogma, this infinite lie, made me the implacable
enemy of Christianity. The truth is that this belief in eternal pain
has been the real persecutor. It founded the Inquisition, forged
the chains, and furnished the fagots. It has darkened the lives
of many millions. It made the cradle as terrible as the coffin.
It enslaved nations and shed the blood of countless thousands.
It sacrificed the wisest, the bravest and the best. It subverted
the idea of justice, drove mercy from the heart, changed men
to fiends and banished reason from the brain.
Like a venomous serpent it crawls and coils and hisses in
every orthodox creed.
It makes man an eternal victim and God an eternal fiend. It is
the one infinite horror. Every church in which it is taught is a
public curse. Every preacher who teaches it is an enemy of
mankind. Below this Christian dogma, savagery cannot go.
It is the infinite of malice, hatred, and revenge.
Nothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence
of its creator, God.
While I have life, as long as I draw breath, I shall deny with
all my strength, and hate with every drop of my blood, this
infinite lie. ...
I gave up the Old Testament on account of its mistakes, its
absurdities, its ignorance and its cruelty. I gave up the New
because it vouched for the truth of the Old. I gave it up on
account of its miracles, its contradictions, because Christ
and his disciples believe in the existence of devils -- talked
and made bargains with them, expelled them from people
and animals.
This, of itself, is enough. We know, if we know anything,
that devils do not exist -- that Christ never cast them out, and
that if he pretended to, he was either ignorant, dishonest or
insane.
These stories about devils demonstrate the human, the ignorant
origin of the New Testament. I gave up the New Testament
because it rewards credulity, and curses brave and honest men,
and because it teaches the infinite horror of eternal pain. ...
I concluded that all religions had substantially the same origin,
and that in fact there has never been but one religion in the world.
The twigs and leaves may differ, but the trunk is the same.
The poor African that pours out his heart to deity of stone is
on an exact religious level with the robed priest who supplicates
his God. The same mistake, the same superstition, bends the
knees and shuts the eyes of both. Both ask for supernatural aid,
and neither has the slightest thought of the absolute uniformity
of nature.
It seems probable to me that the first organized ceremonial
religion was the worship of the sun. The sun was the "Sky
Father,"the "All Seeing," the source of life -- the fireside of the
world. The sun was regarded as a god who fought the darkness,
the power of evil, the enemy of man. ...
Long before our Bible was known, other nations had their
sacred books.
The dogmas of the Fall of Man, the Atonement and Salvation
by Faith, are far older than our religion.
In our blessed gospel, -- in our "divine scheme," -- there is
nothing new -- nothing original. All old -- all borrowed, pieced
and patched.
Then I concluded that all religions had been naturally produced,
and that all were variation, modifications of one, -- then I felt that
I knew that all were the work of man. ...
I read the works of these great men (Darwin, Spencer, Huxley,
Haeckel) -- of many others -- and became convinced that they
were right, and that all the theologians -- all the believers in
"special creation" were absolutely wrong.
The Garden of Eden faded away, Adam and Eve fell back to
dust, the snake crawled into the grass, and Jehovah became a
miserable myth. ..."
- - - end excerpt - - -
From previous posts, more Robert G. Ingersoll quotes:
"Salvation through slavery is worthless. Salvation from
slavery is inestimable."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Gods', 1872
"The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by
an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason,
observation and experience merits everlasting pain,
is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only
by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance,
called 'faith'."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Gods', 1872
"All the meanness, all the revenge, all the selfishness,
all the cruelty, all the hatred, all the infamy of which
the heart of man is capable, grew, blossomed and
bore fruit in this one word, Hell."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Great Infidels', 1881
"Our ignorance is God; what we know is science."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Gods', 1872
"Infidelity is liberty; all religion is slavery."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'Thomas Paine', 1870
"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if
they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be
dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then
I attack them one and all, because they enslave the
minds of men."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Ghosts', 1877
"When I became convinced that the Universe is
natural-that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there
entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop
of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'Why Am I An Agnostic?', 1896
"How long, O how long will mankind worship a book?
How long will they grovel in the dust before the ignorant
legends of the barbaric past? How long, O how long will
they pursue phantoms in a darkness deeper than death?"
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'Heretics and Heresies', 1874
"In the presence of death I affirm and reaffirm the truth
of all that I have said against the superstitions of the
world. I would say that much on the subject with my
last breath."
-Robert G. Ingersoll
"Whether the Bible is true or false, is of no consequence
in comparison with the mental freedom of the race."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Gods', 1872
"... my heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness,
and went out in love to all the heroes, the thinkers who
gave their lives for the liberty of hand and brain -for the
freedom of labor and thought -to those who fell on the
fierce fields of war, to those who died in dungeons
bound with chains -to those who proudly mounted
scaffold's stairs -to those whose bones were crushed ...
... whose flesh was scarred and torn -to those by fire
consumed -to all the wise, the good, the brave of every
land, whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to
the sons of men. And I vowed to grasp the torch that
they had held, and hold it high, that light might conquer
darkness still."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'Why Am I An Agnostic?', 1896
"Mental slavery is mental death and every man who has
given up his intellectual freedom is the living coffin of
his dead soul."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'Individuality', 1873
"We did not get our freedom from the church. The great
truth, that all men are by nature free, was never told on
Sinai's barren crags, nor by the lonely shores of Galilee."
-Robert G. Ingersoll, 'The Christian Religion' Part III,
The Ingersoll - Black Debate, 1881
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Jesus is LORD !!!
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Human Geneticist and Molecular Biologist
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
An indictment against Christianity (1 of 2)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/indictment_against_christianity_1_of_2.htm
- - -
Excerpt:
From a 1989 speech by Arthur Schlesinger, Jr.:
"As a historian, I confess to a certain amusement
when I hear the Judeo-Christian tradition praised
as the source of our present-day concern for
human rights; that is, for the valuable idea that
all individuals everywhere are entitled to life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness on this earth.
In fact, the great religious ages were notable for
their indifference to human rights in the contem-
]porary sense. They were notorious not only for
acquiescence in poverty, inequality, exploitation,
and oppression, but also for enthusiastic justifi-
cations of slavery, persecution, abandonment
of small children, torture, and genocide.
During most of the history of the West ... religion
enshrined and vindicated hierarchy, authority, and
inequality, and had no compunction about murder-
ing heretics and blasphemers. Until the end of the
18th century, torture was normal investigative pro-
cedure in the Catholic church as well as in most
European States ...
Human rights is not a religious idea. It is a secular
idea, the product of the last four centuries of
Western history ... It was the age of equality that
brought about the disappearance of such religious
appurtenances as the auto-da-fe and burning at the
stake, the abolition of torture and of public execu-
tions, the emancipation of the slaves ...
The basic human rights documents -- the American
Declaration of Independence and the French Declar-
ation of the Rights of Man -- were written by political,
not by religious, leaders."
From Richard Dawkins, esteemed scientist and atheist:
"I do think the Roman Catholic religion is a disease
of the mind which has a particular epidemiology similar
to that of a virus... Religion is a terrific meme. That's
right. But that doesn't make it true and I care about
what's true. Smallpox virus is a terrific virus. It does
its job magnificently well. That doesn't mean that it's
a good thing. It doesn't mean that I don't want to see
it stamped out."
From James A. Haught (author of Holy Horrors):
"Corruption in the medieval Catholic hierarchy was
infamous.
Pope John XII openly had love affairs, gave church
treasure to a mistress, castrated one opponent, blinded
another, and donned armor to lead an army. Benedict IX
sold the papacy to a successor for 1,500 pounds of gold.
Urban VI tortured and murdered his cardinals.
Innocent VIII proudly acknowledged his illegitimate
children and loaded them with church riches. Pope
Boniface VII, whose name is omitted from official
church listings, murdered two rival popes in the 10th
century. Sergius III likewise killed two rivals for the
papal throne.
Benedict V dishonored a young girl and fled with the
Vatican treasury. Clement VI sported with mistresses
on ermine bed-linens. Boniface VIII sent troops to kill
every resident of Palestrina and raze the city.
Clement VII, while a papal legate, similarly ordered
the slaughter of Cesena's 8,000 people, including the
children.
A previous Pope John XXIII (not the reformer of the
1950s) was deposed by a council in 1414--and Edward
Gibbon dryly recorded in The Decline and Fall of the
Roman Empire: 'The most serious charges were sup-
pressed; the Vicar of Christ was accused only of pir-
acy, murder, rape, sodomy, and incest.'
Alexander VI bought the papacy by bribing cardinals
to elect him--then hosted sex orgies attended by his
illegitimate children, Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia. ..."
From Carl Sagan, esteemed scientist (author of "The
Demon-Haunted World")
"In Italy, the Inquisition was condemning people to
death until the end of the eighteenth century, and
inquisitional torture was not abolished in the Catholic
Church until 1816. The last bastion of support for the
reality of witchcraft and the necessity of punishment
has been the Christian churches."
From Helen Ellerbe (author of The Dark Side of
Christian History):
"By prohibiting and burning any other writings, the
Catholic Church eventually gave the impression that
this Bible and its four canonized Gospels represented
the only original Christian view. And yet, as late as
450 C.E., Theodore of Cyrrhus said that there were
at least 200 different gospels circulating in his own
diocese.
... There has been no more organized effort by a
religion to control people and contain their spiritu-
ality than the Christian Inquisition.
... Pope Innocent III declared "that anyone who
attempted to construe a personal view of God
which conflicted with Church dogma must be
burned without pity."
By far the cruelest aspect of the inquisitional sys-
tem was the means by which confessions were
wrought: the torture chamber. Torture remained
a legal option for the Church from 1252 when it
was sanctioned by Pope Innocent IV until 1917
when the new Codex Juris Canonici was put into
effect.
The Inquisition often targeted members of other
religions as severely as it did heretics.
The Inquisition now lent its authority to the long-
standing Christian persecution of Jews. Particu-
larly during the Christian Holy Week of the Pas-
sion, Christians frequently rioted against Jews
or refused to sell them food in hopes of starving
them. At the beginning of the 13th century, Pope
Innocent III required Jews to wear distinctive
clothing.
... It was the 300 year period of witch-hunting
from the fifteenth to the eighteenth century, what
R.H. Robbins called "the shocking nightmare,
the foulest crime and deepest shame of western
civilization", that ensured the European abandon-
ment of the belief in magic.
... As the authors of the Malleus Maleficarum
noted, "A belief that there are such things as
witches is so essential a part of Catholic faith
that obstinately to maintain the opposite opinion
savors heresy." Passages in the Bible such as
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" were
cited to justify the persecution of witches."
From Joseph McCabe (author of The Story
of Religious Controversy):
New Light on Witchcraft
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_22.html
The Horrors of the Inquisition
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_23.html
Medieval Art and the Church
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_24.html
The Moorish Civilization in Spain
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_25.html
The Renaissance: A European Awakening
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_26.html
The Reformation and Protestant Reaction
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_27.html
The Truth About Galileo and Medieval Science
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_28.html
From Burton L. Mack (author of Who Wrote the
New Testament? The Making of the Christian Myth):
"The event that triggered the creation of the Chris-
tian Bible was the conversion of Constantine and
the sudden reversal of imperial status experienced
by the Christian churches. Constantine's conver-
sion is often dated as 313 C.E. He became the
sole emperor of the Roman Empire in 324 C.E.
and called the first council of Christian bishops
to meet in Nicaea in 325 C.E.
... within a few short years under Constantine's
prodding, baptistries and basilicas dotted the
landscape, the site of the empty tomb had been
"discovered" and the Church of the Holy Sepul-
chre built upon it, Christian iconography announced
to the world its themes, bishops gathered in councils
to agree upon Christian doctrine, ritual was regular-
ized, the calendar of festival events was established,
piety took the form of pilgrimage, salvation took the
form of eternal life in the heavenly world, and Chris-
tendom was launched.
... The main events along the way included a little
assignment that Constantine gave to Eusebius,
bishop at Caesarea, sometime around 325-330 C.E.
... Constantine asked Eusebius to have fifty copies
of "the sacred scriptures" prepared by professional
transcribers for the new churches he planned to
build.
... At every turn in the formal transformation of the
church into a religion of empire, having the Bible in
place was more than fortunate. It was absolutely
necessary. ... The Bible was created when Christi-
anity became the religion of the Roman Empire."
...
- - - end excerpt - - -
- - -
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Thankfully, Christianity is not a religion:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ce5f55696a2332e3?
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
Causality of the establishment / origins of christianity
in the 3rd & 4th centuries (from the 6-part 312 minute
DVD "Rome: Power & Glory"):
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000JYWU/
... Narrator: "From the beginning, Rome had built its
empire by conquest and force of arms. In the early
days of empire there had been real benefits to being
defeated by Rome: citizenship, civil rights, trade, and
prosperity. But by the 3rd century A.D., those benefits
were evaporating: citizenship was giving way to slavery,
peace and prosperity replaced by shameless exploita-
tion. ... Rome was sitting on a powder keg of poverty
and resentment."
"By the middle of the 3rd century, there were an esti-
mated 5 million christians in the empire." ... "For cen-
turies, Rome's power and confidence had been unshak-
able. She had basked in the achievements of her empire,
convinced of the glory of her rule. But a cult from Judea
confronted Rome's arrogance, challenged her inequality,
and exposed her brutality. Rome, once a symbol of
order and control, was crumbling into chaos and con-
fusion." ... "In 284 A.D. Diocletian was crowned emperor.
He had risen through the ranks of the army to seize power
in Rome. As befitted a military man, his vision for the
future was brutal and bold.
Diocletian felt the key to unity lay in division. He split the
Roman world in two and agreed to share power with 3
other generals. ... In a desperate bid for respect, Diocle-
tian declared himself the son of Jupiter. ... Now, even
members of the imperial court were secretly converting
to christianity."
Professor Andrew Wallace-Hadrill, Director, British School
at Rome: "Diocletian has said that the unity of the empire is
not just a military matter but it's a religious matter and if we
can stamp out christianity, then we will all be worshipping the
same gods, so we'll all be the same empire. And when that
gamble fails to come off, you fail to stamp out christianity,
the martyrs produce more christians."
Narrator: "On February 24th, 303 A.D., Diocletian initiated
the most sweeping persecution the christian church has ever
faced. Churches were burned, scriptures destroyed. Chris-
tians, sent to work in state mines, were imprisoned and tor-
tured for their beliefs. If they still refused to sacrifice to Rome's
gods, they were publicly tortured. Rome, once a proud culture
of tolerance, had become a repressive cult of order."
Dr. Christopher Kelly, Ancient Historian, Corpus Christi Col-
lege, Cambridge: "What we see in Diocletian's persecution of
the christians, are the only two Mediterranean-wide organiza-
tions, the Roman state and the christian church, battling it out
for supremacy."
Narrator: "In 305 A.D., Diocletian retired to his summer palace,
confident that Rome had won. He was wrong." 'In the blood
of the martyrs, lie the seeds of the church.' - Tertullian
... "On October 26th, 312 A.D., rival Roman armies massed
outside the city, waiting to do battle. At the head of one, was
a young commander named Constantine. He knew the next
day a river of Roman blood would flow. ... Constantine looked
up into the sky. He saw a cross of light that seem to burn itself
into the heavens and above it, the words 'IN HOC SIGNO
VINCES' (by this sign you will conquer). He had crosses painted
on the shields of his troops. The next day, at the battle of the
Milvian bridge, he smashed the armies of his rival, Maxentius.
No sooner was Constantine installed as emperor, than he repealed
many of Diocletian's reforms, including his ban on christianity.
But he went even further, declaring himself a christian. Romans
were stunned. Most thought christianity was just another weird
eastern sect. Suddenly, their new emperor had declared himself
a cult member. They thought they had another lunatic on their
hands. They didn't. Constantine cleverly saw how christianity
could unify an empire coming apart at the seams. Unlike Rome's
pagan religion, it preached discipline, obedience, and only one
god."
... Dr. Christopher Kelly, Ancient Historian, Corpus Christi Col-
lege, Cambridge: "The pagans were a little more doubtful about
Constantine's piety. One pagan story said that Constantine con-
verted to christianity because, having murdered his son, and had
his wife suffocated in a hot steam bath, he was desperately in
search of a religion that would give him forgiveness, and chris-
tianity was the only religion that would do that, Constantine hav-
ing been flatly refused forgiveness by a number of pagan priests."
Narrator: "Before he died, he had 13 coffins placed in his sepul-
chre, 12 for the 12 apostles, 1 for himself, as if Constantine was
the 13th apostle of Christ, the one who finally brought his king-
dom to earth. It may have seemed like god's kingdom was com-
ing to earth, but not for long.
Christianity's growth from a small persecuted sect to the domin-
ant religion of empire was a violent and bloody one. Even before
Constantine died, fine points of christian doctrine about the holy
trinity were generating furious debate and before long, bloodshed.
In 366, a conference of bishops left 137 corpses on the floor of
a Roman basilica."
Professor Keith Hopkins, Ancient Historian, King's College, Cam-
bridge: "The 4th century was marked by bitter divisions of belief
between bishops, and they fought with every weapon they could.
They used state forces to expel some people from the church.
What's remarkable about christianity is the degree to which chris-
tian leaders thought that their religion could encompass only a
single orthodoxy." 'The very persons who ought to display broth-
erly love are violently estranged from one another. It's disgraceful,
positively sickening.' -Bishop Chrestus
Narrator: "By the end of the century, there were over 60 official
decrees outlawing different heretical beliefs. Before long, there
were attempts to ban all non-christians from public office. Syna-
gogues were burnt. Pagans observed the growth of christianity
with alarm. Their Rome had been ruthless in punishing people's
actions, but unconcerned about their beliefs. That sort of tolerance
was now a thing of the past." 'Even wild beasts are not as ferocious
as these christians in their hatred of one another.' -Amianus
... "With Rome's passing, the west's long love affair with its memory
began. Paradoxically, it was the christian church that faithfully kept
the language and culture of its former persecutor alive."
Dr. Christopher Kelly, Ancient Historian, Corpus Christi College,
Cambridge: "Simply walk into any church. In its architecture and
design, you have just walked into a Roman imperial palace. Sit down
in that church and perhaps listen to the church service, listen to the
liturgy, listen to the hymns. You are listening to Roman imperial court
ceremonial. The structure of the buildings of the christian church, its
liturgy, its choirs, its priests, its bishops, are taken, are imitative of
Roman imperial court ceremonial." ...
Hitler's religious beliefs and fanaticism (quotes from Mein Kampf)
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm
The Christianity of Hitler revealed in his speeches and proclamations
http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
Hitler compared to God/Jesus/Christians
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm
Quotes from Hitler's Henchmen and Nazi Sympathizers
http://www.nobeliefs.com/henchmen.htm
Christianity in Europe during WWII
http://www.nobeliefs.com/ChurchesWWII.htm
Photos showing the Christianity of Hitler and his Nazi's
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
Hitler's Bible--Monumental History of Mankind
http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerBible.htm
Hitler's table talk and other extraneous sources
http://www.nobeliefs.com/HitlerSources.htm
Nuremberg Trials / Christianity / Holocaust (1 of 4)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/nurembergtrials_christianity_holocaust1of4.htm
Nuremberg Trials / Christianity / Holocaust (2 of 4)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/nurembergtrials_christianity_holocaust2of4.htm
This series of posts covers the causal factors and history leading up
to the anti-humanism invoked by the Nazis (and oft-forgotten, many
members of the German military) ... posts 1 and 2 include excerpts
from the Nuremberg trials.
Nuremberg Trials / Christianity / Holocaust (3 of 4)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/nurembergtrials_christianity_holocaust3of4.htm
Background providing a perspective on some of the events at issue,
documenting the transition of Hitler from Catholic to the pseudo-'God'
of Germany, by near-unanimous affirmation by the non-Jews of pre-
dominantly Christian Germany ... The Night of Broken Glass."
Nuremberg Trials / Christianity / Holocaust (4 of 4)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/nurembergtrials_christianity_holocaust4of4.htm
Hitler Youth ... Pope Pius XII was pope during the holocaust, the pope
of controversy as regards WW II ... Vatican expresses sorrow over
Holocaust, defends wartime pope ... Vatican's Role in the Rise of Mod-
ern Anti-Semitism ... Further information on the leader of the German
Reich, and the position held by Nazis and others during the period of
time at issue.
A Moral Reckoning, by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen (The Role of the
Catholic Church in the Holocaust and Its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair)
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/12/01/RV64077.DTL
Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust,
by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679772685/
The Church as Sinner
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/church_as_sinner.htm
The Holocaust and the Catholic Church (part one), by James Carroll
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99oct/9910pope.htm
The Holocaust and the Catholic Church (part two), by James Carroll
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99oct/9910pope2.htm
The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930-1965: by Michael Phayer
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0253214718/qid=1038942454
Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670886939
Under His Very Windows: The Vatican and the Holocaust in Italy,
by Susan Zucotti
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0300084870/
Secrecy and forgiveness go to the heart of the Catholic Church's
crisis over paedophile priests. Peter Stanford looks behind the
velvet curtain.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=355118
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
The Roman Catholic Church is not Christianity.
Truth is simple.
Fred Thomas
and neither is your little rag tag "ministry".
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Actually, doing what the LORD wants (WDJW) is at the heart of
Christianity.
Truth is simple :-)
May GOD soften your heart, Fred, so that you would come to trust the
Fred Thomas
You have no clue what jesus wants, jesus if he was real is dead. It's all coming
out of your sick mind.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
The power to keep you and other non-christians from publicly saying
"Jesus is LORD" is coming from the Holy Spirit.
Fred Thomas
Back to that now Andy? There is no power over me when it comes to what I say,
when I say.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
you to unwittingly update folks on your still being unable to publicly
say "Jesus is LORD" so that we, who are Christians (either Jew or
gentile), can continue to be mindful of WDJW by choosing to
prayerfully ask GOD to soften your heart so that you would come to
trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
-
Grandpa Chuck
Arguing with Chung is a bit like pissing into the wind. He doesn't
notice it and you get the piss all over yourself.
That my friend is why most of us have him in our killfile.
Alan S
<Iam...@b4u.org> wrote:
>Arguing with Chung is a bit like pissing into the wind. He doesn't
>notice it and you get the piss all over yourself.
>
>That my friend is why most of us have him in our killfile.
Chuck, please snip or you are likely to be joining him in
may kfs too.
Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
--
d&e, metformin 2000 mg
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.
http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com (I Ate Nothing! Why Are My BGs high?)
http://loraltravel.blogspot.com (To Delhi)
Grandpa Chuck
<loralgtwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 03:50:34 GMT, Grandpa Chuck
><Iam...@b4u.org> wrote:
>
>>Arguing with Chung is a bit like pissing into the wind. He doesn't
>>notice it and you get the piss all over yourself.
>>
>>That my friend is why most of us have him in our killfile.
>
>Chuck, please snip or you are likely to be joining him in
>may kfs too.
>
>Cheers, Alan, T2, Australia.
Hear you Alan, and will try to do better in the future.
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
Constantine's Sword : The Church
and the Jews: A History
Book Review, January 8, 2001
The following link has been moved to the Time archives;
see the Time web site for information on how to access
their archives:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,93316,00.html
Excerpt:
"Here's a historical puzzle, for those with the stomach
for it. How is it that the Jews survived the first Christian
millennium?
The church, from the moment of its embrace by the
Roman Emperor Constantine in the 4th century, enjoyed
immense power and employed it with ruthless efficiency
to eliminate dozens of heresies and pagan creeds.
Its relationship with Judaism, its spiritual predecessor
and the first challenger to its claims for Christ, was
especially poisonous.
Why, then, were the Jews permitted to live--and be
persecuted--another day?
The answer ... is St. Augustine.
In the year 425, shortly after Christians slaughtered the
Jews of Alexandria in the first recorded pogrom, the
influential church father cautioned, 'Do not slay them.'
He preferred that the Jews be preserved, close at hand,
as unwilling witnesses to Old Testament prophecies
regarding Jesus.
Augustine's followers elaborated on the idea, writes
Carroll: Jews 'must be allowed to survive, but never to
thrive,' so their misery would be 'proper punishments
for their refusal to recognize the truth of the Church's
claims.'
The 18th century Jewish philosopher Moses Mendelsohn
noted that were it not for Augustine's 'lovely brainwave,
we would have been exterminated long ago.' But it was
a warped, creepy kind of sufferance, a little like keeping
someone chained to the radiator instead of doing him in.
And it set the stage for countless persecutions as the
Christian-Jewish saga rolled on. ...
Anti-Judaism, he writes, has been at the very center of
Catholic theology at least since the Gospel of John, and
the church has allowed, encouraged and--in the case of
the Inquisition--chartered the foulest of abuses. ...
Carroll portrays Hitler as the heir to such church-sanc-
tioned haters as St. John Chrysostom and Torquemada.
'By tapping into a deep, ever-fresh reservoir of Christian
hatred of Jews,' he writes, the German dictator made the
Catholic Church 'an accomplice in history's worst crime.' ...
Jesus' first mourners, who considered themselves Jewish,
engaged in earnest critiques of their faith; but the authors
of the Gospels, by then feuding with the Jews, calcified
those critiques as slanders.
Constantine's use of Christianity to unify his far-flung
empire effectively declared open season on all nonbe-
lievers.
Church fathers (by now influential Romans themselves)
assigned the villain's role in the Crucifixion to the Jews
rather than to Rome.
As Europe was unified under the Cross, the Jews, pre-
served yet ghettoized per Augustine's instructions, became
the Continent's captive 'other,' slaughtered as a warm-up
for Muslims in the First Crusade and as scapegoats during
the Black Death.
Whereas church historians--and philosopher Hannah Arendt
in the 1950s--distinguished between Catholic anti-Judaism
and the racial anti-Semitism of the 20th century, Carroll
maintains that the demarcation first collapsed far earlier,
when the Spanish Inquisition targeted Jewish converts to
Christianity strictly on the basis of their 'impure' blood. ...
- - -
Constantine's Sword : The Church
and the Jews: A History (January 10, 2001)
by James Carroll
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0395779278
Book Description Excerpt: "... maps the profoundly
troubling two-thousand-year course of the battle
against Judaism and faces the crisis of faith it has
provoked in his own life as a Catholic.
More than a chronicle of religion, this dark history
is the central tragedy of Western civilization, its
fault lines reaching deep into our culture.
The Church's failure to protest the Holocaust -- the
infamous 'silence' of Pius XII -- is only part of the
story: the death camps, Carroll shows, are the culmin-
ation of a long, entrenched tradition of anti-Judaism.
From Gospel accounts of the death of Jesus on the
cross, to Constantine's transformation of the cross
into a sword, to the rise of blood libels, scapegoating,
and modern anti-Semitism, Carroll reconstructs the
dramatic story of the Church's conflict not only with
Jews but with itself. ..."
- - -
Further references, from the Encyclopedia Britannica:
Anti-Semitism
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=7908
Excerpt: "Hostility toward or discrimination against
Jews as a religious or racial group. The term 'anti-
Semitism' was coined in 1879 by the German agitator
Wilhelm Marr to designate the anti-Jewish campaigns
underway in central Europe at that time. ...
As Christianity spread, most Jews continued to reject
that religion. As a consequence, by the 4th century AD,
Christians tended to regard Jews as the crucifiers of
Christ and as an alien people who, because of their
repudiation of Christ and his church, had lost their
homeland and were condemned to perpetual migra-
tion.
When the Christian church became dominant in the
Roman Empire, its leaders inspired many laws by
Roman emperors designed to segregate Jews from
Christian believers and to curtail Jews' religious
rights when they appeared to threaten Christian
religious domination.
In much of Europe during the Middle Ages, Jews
were denied citizenship and its rights, barred from
holding posts in government and the military, and
excluded from membership in guilds and the pro-
fessions.
The ritual-murder canard, or blood libel--i.e., Jews'
alleged sacrifice of Christian children at Passover
in order to obtain blood for unleavened bread--
was first made in the 12th century. The legend was
revived sporadically in eastern Europe and Poland
and, in the 1930s, became part of Nazi anti-Semitic
propaganda.
Another instrument of 12th-century anti-Semitism,
the compulsory yellow badge that identified the
wearer as a Jew, was also adopted by the Nazis.
The practice of segregating the Jewish populations
of towns and cities into ghettos dates from the
Middle Ages and lasted until the 19th and early
20th centuries in much of Europe. ...
As European commerce grew in the late Middle
Ages, some Jews became prominent in trade,
banking, and moneylending, and the Jews' econo-
mic and cultural successes tended to arouse the
envy of the populace.
This economic resentment, allied with traditional
religious prejudice, prompted the forced expul-
sion of Jews from several countries or regions,
including England (1290), France (14th century),
Germany (1350s), Portugal (1496), Provence
(1512), and the Papal States (1569).
Intensifying persecutions by the Inquisition in
Spain culminated in 1492 in the forced expulsion
of that country's large and old-established Jewish
population. Only Jews who had converted to
Christianity were allowed to remain. The result
of these mass expulsions was that the centres
of Jewish life shifted from western Europe and
Germany to Turkey and then to Poland and
Russia.
The end of the Middle Ages brought no major
changes in Jews' position in Europe, and the
Counter-Reformation renewed anti-Jewish
legislation and reinforced the system of ghetto
segregation in Roman Catholic countries.
Jews remained subject to occasional massacres,
such as those that occurred during wars between
Eastern Orthodox Ukrainians and Roman Catholic
Poles in the mid-17th century, which rivaled the
worst massacres of Jews by Crusaders in the
Middle Ages.
Periodic persecutions of Jews continued until
the late 18th century, when the Enlightenment
and the French Revolution brought Europe
a new religious freedom. ...
In Germany and Austria in the late 19th century,
anti-Semitism became an organized movement
with its own political parties. ...
The storm of anti-Semitic violence that was let
loose by Nazi Germany under the leadership of
Adolf Hitler in 1933-45 not only reached a ter-
rifying degree in Germany itself but also inspired
anti-Jewish movements elsewhere. ...
In Germany anti-Semitism became official govern-
ment policy--taught in the schools and elaborated
in 'scientific' journals, research institutes, and by
a huge, highly effective organization for inter-
national propaganda.
In 1941 the liquidation of European Jewry became
official party policy. An estimated 5,700,000 Jews
were exterminated in such death camps as Auschwitz,
Chelmno, Belzec, Majdanek, and Treblinka during
World War II. ...
For many centuries, Islamic societies had tolerated
Jews but had made them pay special taxes, wear
identifying clothing, and live in specified areas.
Jews were thus treated much as other nonbelievers
were in Muslim societies.
But the emigration of large numbers of Jews to
Palestine in the 20th century and the creation of
the state of Israel (1948) aroused new currents
of hostility within the Arab world. Because the
Arabs are Semitic, their hostility to the state of
Israel has been primarily political (or anti-Zionist)
and religious rather than racial. ..."
- -
Judaism
Jewish-Christian Relations
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=108152&tocid=35223
Excerpt: "... Elements of the Church spoke out
during the 1930s against the Nazi persecution of
the Jews, but the majority of Christian religious
figures in Europe remained silent, even during the
Holocaust (near extermination of European Jews).
In response to the Holocaust, however, the World
Council of Churches denounced anti-Semitism in
1946, and in 1965 the Roman Catholic Church's
Schema on the Jews and other non-Christian reli-
gions, adopted by the Second Vatican Council,
revised its traditional attitude toward the Jews as
the killers of Christ.
A growing sense of ecumenism (of fellowship
and common concerns) has been shared by Jews
and Christians alike. Although there remain many
difficulties related to the question of the place that
Zionism and the State of Israel hold within Judaism,
the older forms of official church anti-Semitism
have radically lessened. ..."
- - -
Christianity
The Relation of the Early
Church to Late Judaism
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=108295
Excerpt: "Christianity began as a movement within
Judaism at a period when the Jews had long been
under foreign influence and rule and had found in
their religion (rather than in their politics or cultural
achievements) the linchpin of their community.
From Amos (8th century BC) onward the religion
of Israel was marked by tension between the
concept of monotheism, with its universal ideal
of salvation (for all nations), and the notion of
God's special choice of Israel.
In the age after Alexander the Great (i.e., the Hel-
lenistic period, 3rd century BC-3rd century AD),
the dispersion of the Jews throughout the Hellen-
istic kingdoms and the Roman Empire gave some
impetus to the universalistic tendency. ..."
- - -
Holocaust
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=41717&tocid=0
Excerpt: "Hebrew Sho'ah, Yiddish and Hebrew Hurban
('Destruction') the systematic state-sponsored killing of
six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions
of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during
World War II.
The Germans called this 'the final solution to the Jewish
question.' The word Holocaust is derived from the Greek
holokauston, a translation of the Hebrew word 'olah, mean-
ing a burnt sacrifice offered whole to God. This word was
chosen because in the ultimate manifestation of the Nazi
killing program-the extermination camps-the bodies of
the victims were consumed whole in crematoria and open
fires.
Nazi anti-Semitism and the origins of the Holocaust
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=41717&tocid=215485
Except: "... Nazi anti-Semitism was rooted in religious anti-
Semitism and enhanced by political anti-Semitism. To this
the Nazis added a further dimension: racial anti-Semitism.
Nazi racial ideology characterized the Jews as Untermen-
schen (German: "subhumans"). The Nazis portrayed Jews
as a race and not a religious group. Religious anti-Semitism
could be resolved by conversion, political anti-Semitism by
expulsion. Ultimately, the logic of Nazi racial anti-Semitism
led to annihilation.
When Hitler came to power legally on January 30, 1933, as
the head of a coalition government, his first objective was to
consolidate power and to eliminate political opposition. The
assault against the Jews began on April 1 with a boycott of
Jewish businesses.
A week later the Nazis dismissed Jews from the civil service,
and by the end of the month, the participation of Jews in Ger-
man schools was restricted by a quota. On May 10, thousands
of Nazi students, together with many professors, stormed uni-
versity libraries and bookstores in 30 cities throughout Ger-
many to remove tens of thousands of books written by non-
Aryans and those opposed to Nazi ideology.
The books were tossed into bonfires in an effort to cleanse
German culture of 'un-Germanic' writings. A century earlier,
Heinrich Heine-a German poet of Jewish origin-had said,
'Where one burns books, one will, in the end, burn people.'
In Nazi Germany, the time between the burning of Jewish
books and the burning of Jews was eight years. ...
On the evening of November 9, 1938, carefully orchestrated
anti-Jewish violence 'erupted' throughout the Reich, which
since March had included Austria. Over the next 48 hours
rioters burned or damaged more than 1,000 synagogues and
ransacked and broke the windows of more than 7,500 busi-
nesses.
The Nazis arrested some 30,000 Jewish men between the
ages of 16 and 60 and sent them to concentration camps.
Police stood by as the violence-often the action of neigh-
bours, not strangers-occurred. Firemen were present not
to protect the synagogues but to ensure that the flames did
not spread to adjacent 'Aryan' property. The pogrom was
given a quaint name: Kristallnacht ('Crystal Night,' or 'Night
of Broken Glass'). In its aftermath, Jews lost the illusion that
they had a future in Germany. ..."
Non-Jewish victims of Nazism
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=41717&tocid=215487
Excerpt: "While Jews were the primary victims of Nazism
as it evolved and were central to Nazi racial ideology, other
groups were victimized as well-some for what they did,
some for what they refused to do, and some for what they
were.
Political dissidents, trade unionists, and Social Democrats
were among the first to be arrested and incarcerated in con-
centration camps. Under the Weimar government, centuries-
old prohibitions against homosexuality had been overlooked,
but this tolerance ended violently when the SA (Storm Troop-
ers) began raiding gay bars in 1933.
Homosexual intent became just cause for prosecution. The
Nazis arrested German and Austrian male homosexuals-there
was no systematic persecution of lesbians-and interned them
in concentration camps, where they were forced to wear special
yellow armbands and later pink triangles.
Jehovah's Witnesses were a problem for the Nazis because
they refused to swear allegiance to the state, register for the
draft, or utter the words "Heil Hitler." As a result the Nazis
imprisoned many of the roughly 20,000 Witnesses in Germany.
The Nazis also singled out the Roma (Gypsies). They were
the only other group that the Nazis systematically killed in gas
chambers alongside the Jews.
In 1939 the Germans initiated the T4 Program-framed euphe-
mistically as a 'euthanasia' program-for the murder of mentally
retarded, physically disabled, and emotionally disturbed Ger-
mans who departed from the Nazi ideal of Aryan supremacy.
The Nazis pioneered the use of gas chambers and mass crema-
toria under this program.
Following the invasion of Poland, German occupation policy
especially targeted the Jews but also brutalized non-Jewish
Poles. In pursuit of Lebensraum ('living space'), Germany
sought systematically to destroy Polish society and nation-
hood. The Nazis killed Polish priests and politicians, deci-
mated the Polish leadership, and kidnapped the children of
the Polish elite, who were raised as 'voluntary Aryans' by their
new German 'parents.' Many Poles were also forced to per-
form hard labour on survival diets, deprived of property and
uprooted, and interned in concentration camps. ...
When Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939, the
'Jewish question" became urgent. When the division of Poland
between Germany and the Soviet Union was complete, more
than two million more Jews had come under German control.
For a time, the Nazis considered shipping the Jews to the island
of Madagascar, off the southeast coast of Africa. But as the
seas became a war zone and the resources required for such
a massive deportation scarce, they discarded the plan as im-
practical.
On September 21, 1939, Reinhard Heydrich ordered the esta-
blishment of the Judenräte ('Jewish Councils'), comprising up
to 24 men-rabbis and Jewish leaders. Heydrich's order made
these councils personally responsible in 'the literal sense of the
term' for carrying out German orders.
When the Nazis sealed the Warsaw Ghetto, the largest of
German-occupied Poland's 400 ghettos, in the fall of 1940,
the Jews-then 30 percent of Warsaw's population-were
forced into 2.4 percent of the city's area. The ghetto's popu-
lation reached a density of over 200,000 persons per square
mile (77,000 per square km) and 9.2 per room. Disease, mal-
nutrition, hunger, and poverty took their toll even before the
first bullet was fired.
For the German rulers, the ghetto was a temporary measure,
a holding pen for the Jewish population until a policy on its
fate could be established and implemented. For the Jews,
ghetto life was the situation under which they thought they
would be forced to live until the end of the war. They aimed
to make life bearable, even under the most trying circum-
stances.
When the Nazis prohibited schools, they opened clandestine
schools. When the Nazis banned religious life, it persisted in
hiding. The Jews used humour as a means of defiance, so too
song. They resorted to arms only late in the Nazi assault.
Historians differ on the date of the decision to murder Jews
systematically, the so-called 'final solution to the Jewish ques-
tion.' There is debate about whether there was one central
decision or a series of regional decisions in response to local
conditions; but in either case, when Germany attacked the
Soviet Union, its former ally, in June of 1941, the Nazis be-
gan the systematic killing of Jews."
The Einsatzgruppen
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=41717&tocid=215489
Excerpt: "Entering conquered Soviet territories alongside the
Wehrmacht (the German armed forces) were 3,000 men of
the Einsatzgruppen ('deployment groups'), special mobile
killing units. Their task was to murder Jews, Soviet commis-
sars, and Roma in the areas conquered by the army. Alone
or with the help of local police, native anti-Semitic popula-
tions, and accompanying Axis troops, the Einsatzgruppen
would enter a town, round up their victims, herd them to the
outskirts of the town, and shoot them.
They killed Jews in family units. Just outside Kiev, Ukraine,
in the valley of Baby Yar, an Einsatzgruppe killed 33,771
Jews on September 28-29, 1941. In the Rumbula Forest
outside the ghetto in Riga, Latvia, 25,000-28,000 Jews died
on November 30 and December 8-9. Beginning in the sum-
mer of 1941, Einsatzgruppen killed more than 70,000 Jews
at Ponary, outside Vilna (now Vilnius) in Lithuania. They
slaughtered 9,000 Jews, half of them children, at the Ninth
Fort adjacent to Kovno (now Kaunas), Lithuania, on Octo-
ber 28.
The mass shootings continued unabated, with a first wave
and then a second. When the killing ended in the face of a
Soviet counteroffensive, special units returned to dig up the
dead and burn their bodies to destroy the evidence of the
crimes. It is estimated that the Einsatzgruppen killed more
than one million people, most of whom were Jews.
Historians are divided about the motivations of the members
of Einsatzgruppen. Christopher Browning describes them as
ordinary men in extraordinary circumstances in which con-
formity, peer pressure, careerism, obedience to orders, and
group solidarity gradually overcame moral inhibitions.
Daniel Goldhagen sees them as 'willing executioners,' sharing
Hitler's vision of genocidal anti-Semitism and finding their
tasks unpleasant but necessary. Both concur that no Einsatz-
gruppe member faced punishment if he asked to be excused.
Individuals had a choice whether to participate or not. Almost
all chose to become killers.
The extermination camps
... In early 1942 the Nazis built extermination camps at Tre-
blinka, Sobibor, and Belzec in Poland. The death camps
were to be the essential instrument of the 'final solution.' The
Einsatzgruppen had traveled to kill their victims. With the
extermination camps, the process was reversed. The victims
traveled by train, often in cattle cars, to their killers. The ex-
termination camps became factories producing corpses,
effectively and efficiently, at minimal physical and psycho-
logical cost to German personnel.
Assisted by Ukrainian and Latvian collaborators and prisoners
of war, a few Germans could kill tens of thousands of pris-
oners each month. At Chelmno, the first of the extermination
camps, the Nazis used mobile gas vans. Elsewhere, they built
permanent gas chambers linked to the crematoria where bod-
ies were burned. Carbon monoxide was the gas of choice at
most camps. Zyklon-B, an especially lethal killing agent, was
employed primarily at Auschwitz and later at other camps.
Auschwitz, perhaps the most notorious and lethal of the con-
centration camps, was actually three camps in one: a prison
camp (Auschwitz I), an extermination camp (Auschwitz II-
Birkenau), and a slave-labour camp (Auschwitz III-Buna-
Monowitz).
Upon arrival, Jewish prisoners faced what was called a Selek-
tion. A German doctor presided over the selection of pregnant
women, young children, the elderly, handicapped, sick, and
infirm for immediate death in the gas chambers. As necessary,
the Germans selected able-bodied prisoners for forced labour
in the factories adjacent to Auschwitz where one German com-
pany, IG Farben, invested 700,000 million Reichsmarks in 1942
alone to take advantage of forced labour.
Deprived of adequate food, shelter, clothing, and medical care,
these prisoners were literally worked to death. Periodically, they
would face another Selektion. The Nazis would transfer those
unable to work to the gas chambers of Birkenau.
While the death camps at Auschwitz and Majdanek used in-
mates for slave labour to support the German war effort, the
extermination camps at Belzec, Treblinka, and Sobibor had
one task alone: killing. At Treblinka, a staff of 120, of whom
only 30 were SS (the Nazi paramilitary corps), killed some
750,000 to 900,000 Jews during the camp's 17 months of
operation.
At Belzec, German records detail a staff of 104, including
about 20 SS, who killed some 600,000 Jews in less than 10
months. At Sobibor, they murdered about 250,000. These
camps began operation during the spring and summer of 1942,
when the ghettos of German-occupied Poland were filled with
Jews. Once they had completed their missions-murder by
gassing, or 'resettlement in the east,' to use the language of
the Wannsee protocols-the Nazis closed the camps.
There were six extermination camps, all in German-occupied
Poland, among the thousands of concentration and slave-
labour camps throughout German-occupied Europe.
The impact of the Holocaust varied from region to region, and
from year to year in the 21 countries that were directly affected.
Nowhere was the Holocaust more intense and sudden than in
Hungary. What took place over several years in Germany oc-
curred over 16 weeks in Hungary.
Entering the war as a German ally, Hungary had persecuted
its Jews but not permitted their deportation. After Germany
invaded Hungary on March 19, 1944, this situation changed
dramatically. By mid-April the Nazis had confined Jews to
ghettos. On May 15, deportations began, and over the next 55
days, the Nazis deported some 438,000 Jews from Hungary to
Auschwitz on 147 trains. ..."
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=41717&tocid=215491
Excerpt: "... By the winter of 1944-45, with Allied armies
closing in, desperate SS officials tried frantically to evacuate
the camps and conceal what had taken place. They wanted
no eyewitnesses remaining.
Prisoners were moved westward, forced to march toward the
heartland of Germany. There were over 50 different marches
from Nazi concentration and extermination camps during this
final winter of Nazi domination, some covering hundreds of
miles. The prisoners were given little or no food and water,
and almost no time to rest or take care of bodily needs. Those
who paused or fell behind were shot.
In January 1945, just hours before the Red Army arrived at Ausch-
witz, the Nazis marched some 60,000 prisoners to Wodzislaw and
put them on freight trains to the camps at Bergen-Belsen, Gross-
Rosen, Buchenwald, Dachau, and Mauthausen. Nearly one in four
died en route.
In April and May of 1945, American and British forces en route
to military targets entered the concentration camps in the west
and caught a glimpse of what had occurred. Even though tens
of thousands of prisoners had perished, these camps were far
from the most deadly. Still, even for the battle-weary soldiers
who thought they had already seen the worst, the sights and
smells and the emaciated survivors they encountered left an in-
delible impression.
At Dachau they came upon 28 railway cars stuffed with dead
bodies. Conditions were so horrendous at Bergen-Belsen that
some 28,000 inmates died after they were freed, and the entire
camp had to be burned to prevent the spread of typhus. Allied
soldiers had to perform tasks for which they were ill-trained: to
heal the sick, comfort the bereaved, and bury the dead.
As for the victims, liberation was not a moment of exultation.
Viktor Frankl, a survivor of Auschwitz, recalled, 'Everything
was unreal. Unlikely as in a dream. Only later-and for some it
was very much later or never-was liberation actually liberating.'
The Allies, who had early and accurate information on the mur-
der of the Jews, made no special military efforts to rescue them
or to bomb the camps or the railroad tracks leading to them.
(See Sidebar: Why wasn't Auschwitz bombed?) They felt that
only after victory could something be done about the Jewish
situation.
Warnings were issued, condemnations were made, plans pro-
ceeded to try the guilty after the war, but no concrete action was
undertaken specifically to halt the genocide. An internal memo to
U.S. Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau, Jr., from his
general counsel in January 1944 characterized U.S. State Depart-
ment policy as 'acquiescence to the murder of the European
Jews.' In response Morgenthau helped spur the creation of the
War Refugee Board, which made a late and limited effort to res-
cue endangered Jews, mainly through diplomacy and subterfuge.
The aftermath
Although the Germans killed victims from several groups, the
Holocaust is primarily associated with the murder of the Jews.
Only the Jews were targeted for total annihilation, and their
elimination was central to Hitler's vision of the 'New Germany.'
The intensity of the Nazi campaign against the Jews continued
unabated to the very end of the war and at points even took
priority over German military efforts. ...
The defeat of Nazi Germany left a bitter legacy for the German
leadership and people. Germans had committed crimes in the
name of the German people. German culture and the German
leadership-political, intellectual, social, and religious-had
participated or been complicit in the Nazi crimes or been inef-
fective in opposing them. ..."
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=41717&tocid=215494
Excerpt: "... Conclusion - Today the Holocaust is viewed as
the emblematic manifestation of absolute evil. Its revelation of
the depths of human nature and the power of malevolent social
and governmental structures has made it an essential topic of
ethical discourse in fields as diverse as law, medicine, religion,
government, and the military.
Many survivors report they heard a final plea from those who
were killed: 'Remember! Do not let the world forget.' To this
responsibility to those they left behind, survivors have added
a plea of their own: 'Never again.' Never for the Jewish people.
Never for any people. They hope that remembrance of the
Holocaust can prevent its recurrence. ..."
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> - - -
>
> Constantine's Sword : The Church
> and the Jews: A History
> Book Review, January 8, 2001
>
> The following link has been moved to the Time archives;
> see the Time web site for information on how to access
> their archives:
> http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,93316,00.html
>
> Excerpt:
>
> "Here's a historical puzzle, for those with the stomach
> for it. How is it that the Jews survived the first Christian
> millennium?
They remain blessed by GOD.
Truth is simple.
May GOD soften your heart, Pro-Humanist, so that you would come to
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
Pro-Humanist FREELOVER
- - -
Religions : Origins, Geographical
Distribution, Populations/Percentages (070400)
http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/religions_origins.htm
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
>- - -
>Religions : Origins, Geographical
>Distribution, Populations/Percentages (070400)
> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/religions_origins.htm
>- - -
Those of us who are Jesus' disciples (either Jew or gentile) are
simply showing folks the way rather than teaching a religion:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/NoReligion
"I am the way and the truth and the life." -- LORD Jesus Christ (John
14:6)
Amen.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>
>- - -
>The Church as Sinner
> http://fire.prohosting.com/prohuman/history/church_as_sinner.htm
Wiser to not be religious:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/HolySpirit/NoReligion