PV and the holocaust
Just passing by
Who could ever giggle at the Nazi holocaust? Who could ever use that
abominable tragedy as material for a trolling campaign in an internet
newsgroup? What kind of sick, twisted mind could ever dream up a
"game" in which lies relating to the holocaust would be posted in a
newsgroup, not with any expectation that those lies would stick,
permanently, but for the purpose of then sitting back and laughing
while watching the victims of those lies having to disprove them?
There is such a sick mind, and it belongs to the person known as A
Planet Visitor (PV).
PV is well known in alt.activism.death-penalty for his various
gimmicks, the most common of which is posting the most bizarre and
outrageous lies about other posters, and what he claims they have
written, for the purpose of then sitting at his screen laughing as he
watches those posters having to spend their time proving that PV had
lied, and that they had never written any such things.
One recent example of these outrageous lies was seen after one poster
used the word "sparrows" in a post. That was all he did - simply
mention those birds in relation to their most common predators, cats.
But PV then claimed in post after post that this poster had "...
admitted that he enjoys pulling the wings off of sparrows ..."
That was just one among literally hundreds of equally outrageous lies
PV has told about numerous posters to this newsgroup. But the most
serious and disgusting examples of this "game" PV likes to play are
seen when he uses not sparrows but the Nazi holocaust as the material
for it. He wrote of one poster: 'Of course he has also claimed that
the death camps were "okay" ...' But, of course, that poster never
said that at all, and replied to PV, clearly angry at that lie, to set
the record straight. And that was what gave PV his thrill - seeing the
reaction to his "work".
More recently PV wrote of this poster: "JPB's obsession with defending
anti-Semites who argue that no Jews were murdered in Dachau, because
'Dachau was not a death-camp for Jews.' " Once again, that was
completely made up by PV.
One can only hope that no surviving victims of the Nazi camps nor
anyone who lost relatives in the holocaust will ever look through this
group's archives and have to be subjected to PV's revolting
exploitation of their suffering just for his own sick "games".
Jigsaw1695
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:21b1da28.03091...@posting.google.com...
===
Go back to sleep, lad.
If PV wants to talk about the holocaust, he has as much right as Dezi does
to rail against the DP. Both are matters of free speech and personal
opinions.
Jigsaw
kluscombe
could fail to comprehend.The Holocaust is a stain on the morality of the
human race!
What is even wose is that we learnt nothing from it,human suffering
continues on a scale which is hard to define or reason.
Country`s like the USA should be leading the world in human rights
issues! not locking up people from mostly ethnic communities,mental
defectives,and childen for 20 years then taking them out one night and
electrocuting them,gassing them,or filling their cardio vascular systems
with deadly barbituarates! It never escapes my notice Jigsaw that you in
particular take great joy when some wretch has been executed! How can you
celebrate something so tragic Jigsaw? what is in you that makes you
celebrate something so perverse and disgusting? Dont you ever look at
yourself and say "there go i but for the grace of god" how can a violent
death cause you so much amusement and pleasure? what about the victims of a
muderer,do you shed a tear for them? i suspect Jigsaw that you never give it
a thought,death just gives you a thrill,its something that turns you on,i
dont know who are worse the people who can condone and suppot such a cruel
unfair system,or people who rejoice in such human suffering! over the yeas
Jigsaw i often wonder about you,who you are,what you do with yourself,and
what turned your heart too stone.Mercy and justice are 2 qualities that you
have never shown,your tirades against Desmond ae despicable,but even worse
is your joy and fascination in violent death.perhaps one day you will look
at life and see just how precious it is.
Keith
"Jigsaw1695" <jigsa...@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:FOjab.36967$Aq2....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
A Planet Visitor
>A PLANET VISITOR - THE MAN WHO GIGGLED AT THE HOLOCAUST
>
JPB -- The man who doesn't know how to do anything but lie -
If you find a *giggle* in claiming that the evil in Dachau cannot be
diminished, as I have most assuredly insisted that it cannot be
diminished, that says a hell of a lot more about YOU, than it could
ever say about me. It says that YOU also do not believe that
Dachau needs to be recognized as evil personified. And it makes
YOU the same as Ol' Racist Nev. The same neo-Nazi scum that
Simon Wiesenthal has quite astutely recognized [1]. If you believe
you can raise my anger, with your obsessive lies, you are quite wrong.
If anyone is *giggling* right now... it is you. The fact that you
even imply I would *giggle* about the holocaust, or characterize
it as a "game" which you have done, is clear evidence of your emotional
decline here... as I keep pounding and pounding away at your
demonstrated immorality.
>Who could ever giggle at the Nazi holocaust?
Ol' Racist Nev could... And you DEFENDED him for doing so. And
there is no doubt you are having a big *giggle* here, by characterizing
the holocaust in your EXACT words as a "game."
> Who could ever use that
>abominable tragedy as material for a trolling campaign in an internet
>newsgroup?
Who could claim that one cannot SPEAK of the holocaust?
Only those who would hope to DENY it, or call it a "game."
The fact that it was an abominable tragedy must be constantly
reminded. Do not for one moment believe that YOU do not
sound "PHONEY" right there, JPB. Let's see... have any
past references to your views on the holocaust? Well...well..
well. not a peep until you found ME confronting you in
your sickening defense of a baby-killer. Then every comment
directed ONLY toward me or a comment of mine to another.
A GRAND TOTAL of SIX posts, from you speaking of the Jews
or anti-Semitism, before this dialog began on Sep 17, in various
threads, IN YOUR ENTIRE POSTING HISTORY. And the
very first one to ME. You have NEVER spoken of the Jews
or anti-Semitism in your entire posting HISTORY. Until, all of
a sudden you suddenly saw that 'blazing light of get PV.' All of
a sudden it became an "abominable tragedy" to you, while before
we first confronted each other... it was a NON-ISSUE to you!
You fucking HYPOCRITE!! While I have a total of 825 posts in
my history, dating back to the very first day in AADP, that
speak to Jews or anti-Semitism. Do you see that your obsession
is with ME... while there is not a whisper from you in respect to
offering any attack on anti-Semitism or an attack on a holocaust
denier, before I first confronted you? Does that sound as
familiar as your "phoney" anti-racist postings now? Does the word
PHONEY... ring a bell? Who is now -- playing "Games" with
the holocaust? Why... it's YOU, sport.
How can you POSSIBLY look at yourself in the mirror?
> What kind of sick, twisted mind could ever dream up a
>"game" in which lies relating to the holocaust would be posted in a
>newsgroup, not with any expectation that those lies would stick,
>permanently, but for the purpose of then sitting back and laughing
>while watching the victims of those lies having to disprove them?
>
You think the holocaust is a GAME!!! Now THAT'S the
DEFINITION of someone with a sick, twisted mind. People
were MURDERED in the holocaust... BY THE MILLIONS.
And you characterize it as a GAME. What kind of EVIL
MONSTER ARE YOU?
Are you about to tell me to take my comments about the
holocaust into another group, dedicated to that subject, and
leave AADP to anti-Semitic holocaust deniers, as you did
with telling me to take my anti-racism comments to another
group and leave AADP to racists? See your DEMAND that
I leave AADP to racists in --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0303040404.6ec39dbc%40posting.google.com
Your evil just keeps plumbing NEW DEPTHS. I simply cannot
believe that anyone would challenge the Nameless One for
most perverted... but DAMN... you're making it a race.
Defending a baby-killer... defending Saddam... defending
a poster who said he could find no gradation between murderers
and innocent slaves... defending a racist...exposing yourself as
a racist yourself... defending a anti-Semite/holocaust-denier/neo-Nazi.
Now determined to prove you are ALSO an anti-Semite/
holocaust-denier/neo-Nazi. All the while... the lies from you
escalating exponentially. Without shame... without remorse...
without embarrassment... without the slightest concern for humanity.
Concerned ONLY with MURDERERS... The 'Great White
Whale'... Saddam... murderers equal to innocent slaves...
racist murderers... and now the most evil murderers of all that
you intend to defend... the murderers in the holocaust. Now
beginning to DEFEND, and then certainly agree that Jews were
not murdered in Dachau.. in DEFENDING and agreeing with
Ol' Racist Nev... who posted -- "I must stress that Dachau,
Belson, and Buchanwald were _not_ used as death-camps
for Jews." . See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305290530.16495221%40posting.google.com
Ol' Racist Nev -- who also provided a post that did not ONCE
mention MURDER or even DEATH in respect to Dachau itself.
Apparently, to him, only after humans were removed from Dachau
alive, well-fed, and well-maintained, did their deaths or murders
occur. See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305271322.6bef6222%40posting.google.com
In that post, he does not ONCE make mention of MURDER or
even DEATH in Dachau, at a time when Jews were being slaughtered
throughout Europe, He DEFENDED Dachau, implying that there
were much worse places to be. And this is the person YOU are
defending.
>There is such a sick mind, and it belongs to the person known as A
>Planet Visitor (PV).
>
LOL. Only a sick mind would DEFEND a holocaust denier. And
that is what YOU have done.
>PV is well known in alt.activism.death-penalty for his various
>gimmicks,
You are well known for characterizing words that recognize the
contributions of MLK as simply a "gimmick," and then began
pounding on the memory of MLK himself... characterizing his
works as simply a "gimmick." Then providing an insult to
me by implying it was evil of me to have anti-racism as a
"personal ends." That was the best one of all... since it
demonstrated how much you HATE any expressions of
anti-racism. You find it DISGUSTING that someone such
as me, might have anti-racism as a "personal ends," but
fully admit I DO HAVE anti-racism as a "personal ends."
It's just that you HATE ANYONE who might have anti-racism
as a "personal ends." You much more enjoy agreeing with
those who have racism as a "personal ends." That's become
very obvious with the associations you have formed here,
and the rejections you have received from those who
refuse to support your racism as a "personal ends."
> the most common of which is posting the most bizarre and
>outrageous lies about other posters,
Your problem is THE TRUTH HURTS. Your lies cannot
HANDLE the truth. You even admitted that you much more
enjoy the 'original' and 'creative' LIE, than the 'unvarnished'
TRUTH.
> and what he claims they have
>written, for the purpose of then sitting at his screen laughing as he
>watches those posters having to spend their time proving that PV had
>lied, and that they had never written any such things.
>
I never 'claim' what they have written, without providing a
TRUE QUOTE to what I 'claim' they have written. Thus
my 'claims' of what they have written are TRUTHS. You
have only indulged in LIES, and deception. You cannot
provide even ONE example of when I have not accurately
quoted the words of another poster.
>One recent example of these outrageous lies was seen after one poster
>used the word "sparrows" in a post. That was all he did - simply
>mention those birds in relation to their most common predators, cats.
>But PV then claimed in post after post that this poster had "...
>admitted that he enjoys pulling the wings off of sparrows ..."
Of course he expressed EXACTLY such enjoyment. He
pictured himself as the cat... pictured the "deathies" (he
refers to ALL retentionists as "deathies") as the sparrow,
and then said -- "I engage in 'abuse' of deathies as a matter
of course." Every bit as much the meaning of "abuse" as
the cat 'abuses' the sparrow. And there is no question that
the cat rips off the wings of the sparrow when in the grasping
claws of the cat. Not only that... he INVOKES GOD to
provide the sparrow for such 'torture and killing.' Not
only is he a sadist... but apparently a devil-worshiper as
well. This is the reference -- See
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021024212910.18726.00000056%40mb-fe.aol.com
His EXACT words --
"I engage in 'abuse' of deathies as a matter of course.
That's what they're there for. `echo $DEITY` gave them to us,
much as She gave sparrows to the domestic cat. They're
our playthings."
>That was just one among literally hundreds of equally outrageous lies
>PV has told about numerous posters to this newsgroup.
All of them TRUE... You even ADMITTED that one of them
was true. But given the fact that you've NEVER told the truth,
that's one of the quotes that rather bothers me... since if YOU
said it was true... it's rather axiomatic that it cannot BE TRUE.
> But the most
>serious and disgusting examples of this "game" PV likes to play are
>seen when he uses not sparrows but the Nazi holocaust as the material
>for it. He wrote of one poster: 'Of course he has also claimed that
>the death camps were "okay" ...'
Yes... that was most certainly his claim. In his continued denials
that no murders of Jews occurred in Dachau. And you AGREE
and DEFEND him in that claim.
> But, of course, that poster never
>said that at all, and replied to PV, clearly angry at that lie, to set
>the record straight. And that was what gave PV his thrill - seeing the
>reaction to his "work".
>
Hardly... he grew angry that I had EXPOSED him for what he was.
Just as I have EXPOSED YOU for what you are. A baby-killer
lover... a Saddam lover.. defender of a racist... become a racist
yourself... a defender of an anti-Semite/holocaust-denial/neo-Nazi.
On the brink of becoming the same.
>More recently PV wrote of this poster: "JPB's obsession with defending
>anti-Semites who argue that no Jews were murdered in Dachau, because
>'Dachau was not a death-camp for Jews.' " Once again, that was
>completely made up by PV.
>
Umm.. you ARE DEFENDING Ol' Racist Nev... are you not?
GIven that you are... and you most CERTAINLY ARE. Then it is
certain that you have now decided to *giggle* by defending Ol'
Racist Nev's implication that no Jews were murdered in Dachau
when he stated that he needed to STRESS that Jews were not
murdered in Dachau... with his words --
"I must stress that Dachau, Belson, and Buchanwald were _not_ used
as death-camps for Jews." . See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305290530.16495221%40posting.google.com
Given the fact that Jews were being systematically slaughtered throughout
Europe by the Nazis.... his words imply that those death-camps he
refers to were more on the order of 'safety zones' for Jews rather than
camps where they would be put to death through murder. Simply because
he needed to STRESS that they were NOT "death-camps for Jews." And
you agreed with his conclusion EXACTLY, by characterizing his words
are PERFECTLY ACCURATE, and my characterization of his words as
a lie. YOU are the one *giggling* about the MONSTROUS MURDERS
that took place in Dachau, by DEFENDING Ol' Racist Nev's claim
that Dachau was _not_ used as a death-camp for Jews. You are the
monster who would *giggle* by presuming those murders NEVER
happened in your defense of Ol' Racist Nev's statement. You've now
demonstrated that you are not only a baby-killer lover, and a racist... but
defending an anti-Semite, and a holocaust denier..
>One can only hope that no surviving victims of the Nazi camps
I'm sure that is one of YOUR GREATEST HOPES... You
evil shit. I presume you also hope that there were no 'surviving
victims' from Dachau at all, since you defend Ol' Racist Nev.
> nor
>anyone who lost relatives in the holocaust will ever look through this
>group's archives and have to be subjected to PV's revolting
>exploitation of their suffering just for his own sick "games".
The very fact that you characterize speaking of the holocaust
as a "game," is a clear indication of some mental aberration
going on inside your head. I presume that your next use of
the word 'holocaust' will be that you will follow it with a (sic),
to indicate both your *giggle* at the thought of it, and your
denial that it actually exists as either a word or one of the
most disgusting events in human history. Denial is part and
parcel of the anti-Semite... that you now DEFEND... and
presumably will become... just as you did in becoming a
racist.
Read again the words of Ol' Racist Nev that deny the outrages
and corruption that were inflicted on humanity. THEN -- weep
for that humanity. Don't *giggle* or speak of the holocaust
as a "game," as you have begun to do... but weep for humanity.
For just once in your pitiful life....
If you cannot weep for Matthew...
If you cannot weep for MLK...
If you cannot weep for innocent slaves...
If you cannot weep for the victims of Saddam...
then at least --
WEEP FOR THAT MURDERED HUMANITY
IN DACHAU!
For just once in your life... weep for the victim...
and not the murderer.
Or is that asking too much of you?
PV
[1] http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar03.html
His words -- "Because there were no extermination camps on
German soil the Neo-Nazis are using this as proof that these
crimes did not happen [...]"
Just passing by
Everything from PV clipped and almost all of it unread. However, from
the look of it, it seems that PV is now trying to deny having giggled
at the holocaust and having tried to use it as material for the sick
"games" he plays. Quite astonishing given the ease with which this can
be proven, as I will now do with the applicable URLs.
THE EVIDENCE
Firstly PV's lie about another poster admitting to enjoying pulling
the wings from sparrows. The exact words that poster wrote were:
"I engage in 'abuse' of deathies as a matter of course. That's what
they're there for. `echo $DEITY` gave them to us, much as She gave
sparrows to the domestic cat. They're our playthings."
And to clarify: the term "deathies" means those who support the death
penalty, and the "abuse" the poster was referring to there means
written abuse mostly within this newsgroup, not physical abuse of any
kind.
And this is what PV claimed that poster had said:
"... who once admitted that he enjoys ripping the wings off of
sparrows ..."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=jc1jlv8ltj4l3mc5ml0ov8smb8c51dr3se%404ax.com
and...
"And desmond is the one who claimed he enjoyed ripping the wings off
of sparrows ..."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=pvcllvc07k46591bfglohjcifnbc25sumg%404ax.com
and...
"And has admitted that he enjoys ripping wings off of sparrows..."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=mnt6iv438vd6h0a678k2tnoi25l51puhu2%404ax.com
and...
"Tell us again about how you became sexually aroused as a child when
you ripped the wings off of injured sparrows."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=0704ivoka0gcj6ap5pbs6fs6np0v1mgn27%404ax.com
Then I challenged PV to justify this claim and this is what he wrote
in reply:
"It's very probable that he 'enjoyed' pulling the wings off of injured
birds in his youth."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=oeoqlvs84e5b8ejihfb2bufu5tfiuoed4d%404ax.com
Very different words to before, weren't they? And it is the same every
time - PV tells an outrageous lie, he then sits back laughing at what
he has done, then he is challenged to back up his claim, and finally
he either runs away completely or tries to "explain it away" with some
pathetically unconvincing drivel such as the above.
Now on to the evidence of PV playing this "game" of his with the
subject of the holocaust.
In May of this year, one poster wrote the following:
"I must stress that Dachau, Belson, and Buchanwald were _not_ used as
death-camps for Jews."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305290530.16495221%40posting.google.com
In the same post, he also wrote:
"I should point out (as many Merkins seem confused about this) that
Holocaust historians (inc. Simon Wiesenthal) do not call Dachau a
'death-camp'. "
The poster later reiterated that and made clear that he was not trying
to play down the horror of those camps, but simply reporting the views
of people such as Simon Wiesenthal. He wrote:
"Cos I say Dachau wasn't a death-camp? That's me, Simon Wiesenthal,
and every reputable Holocaust historian."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0306020717.5606f088%40posting.google.com
But that didn't stop PV from playing his sick "game". PV wrote:
'Of course he has also claimed that the death camps were "okay," since
those executed as Jews, could have only chosen to BE JEWS. '
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=unbcdv0ammt9g9ovl3uf0dndc4nrfijfi3%404ax.com
Now note that PV put the word "okay" in DOUBLE quotation marks. This
is someone who has for a very long time claimed that when he lies
about what someone has said, it is not really a lie if it is only in
single quotation marks because that is, apparently, the American way.
So what happened there?
The truth is that the poster in question never said that the death
camps were okay. PV lied. He lied because he knew that poster would be
angered by that lie, as indeed the poster was. PV wanted to see that
anger expressed through that poster's reply. He did it for a "laugh"
and a "wheeze" and for a sick and disgusting "joke". PV was quite
happy to exploit the Nazi holocaust and its victims as part of his
cheap points scoring "game" and emotional need for revenge against a
poster he disliked for reasons entirely unconnected to the matter then
under discussion.
Shortly after this, I posted a message referring to several proven
lies PV had recently told about other posters, and included the above
one. I wrote:
'You did the very same thing to Euro when you accused him of saying
that "849 murderers are the same as millions of innocent Black slaves"
which he certainly did not say, and now you have done it to Neville by
claiming that he said the Nazi death camps were "okay" which he
certainly did not say.'
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0305300225.1471ff8e%40posting.google.com
That was the only reference I made in that post to PV's "okay" lie
about Neville (other than simply mentioning his name near the end) and
to the best of my recollection I have never mentioned it on any other
occasion. Yet PV, only a few days ago referring to that very brief
mention, wrote:
."JPB's obsession with defending anti-Semites who argue that no Jews
were murdered in Dachau, because 'Dachau was not a death-camp for
Jews.' "
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=e3lfmvsq96nfasjquubnn148skiqn456pk%404ax.com
"Obsession"? "Anti-Semites"? I was pointing out a proven lie told by
PV, regardless of the discussion it appeared in, and he calls that an
"obsession with defending anti-Semites ..."
And that is all part of PV's "game". He throws around these false
accusations of "racism" and "anti-Semitism" not only at those he
chooses as the initial focus of his "games" but also at those
criticising him for playing them.
And, as the above proves, he is even happy to trample over the sacred
memories of the holocaust's victims to help him to play those "games"
and to give him a laugh, a giggle, a chuckle, as he looks on at the
results. The man is beneath contempt.
So there is the evidence backing up every claim made in my previous
post in this thread. PV can deny, deny, deny, as he always does, but
he can't remove that evidence and those URLs from the archives. Nor
can he remove this URL:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
That is the link to the first post in this thread. I now intend to
post that link whenever I see PV playing his "games" of lying about
other posters, and whenever I see him pretending to care about the
victims of the Nazi holocaust, as he sometimes does for the purpose of
trying to build a respectable image for himself. That is just an act,
just as his "anti-racist" posts reflect another of his acts. He posts
them to give him something to link to whenever he is accused of
anything relating to racism/anti-Semitism. He thinks that with those
posts in place he is untouchable whenever race matters are discussed
here. He plants those posts as seeds for that purpose.
But they count for nothing because the posts which reveal the true PV
are those in which he has giggled at the Nazi holocaust, and exploited
its victims to help him play his stupid and wicked "games".
Jigsaw1695
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:21b1da28.03091...@posting.google.com...
All this because he "giggled"?
Just passing by
> ========================================================================
>
> All this because he "giggled"?
I understand what you mean but the point is that it will save me so
much time in the future. From now on all I have to do is post a link
back to the two main posts in this thread. Look at how much time
Desmond (and some of the rest of us) has saved by being able to simply
link to PV's Patented Gimmicks, rather than having to keep explaining
how he has used them every time he does so. In the long run this will
prove to be a very good time saving investment.
Jigsaw1695
"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:21b1da28.03091...@posting.google.com...
===
Sounds like troll-talk to me.
A Planet Visitor
In the long run it's denial time, sport... Need I remind you --
For one moment, let us examine the general idea of what we
call "spam" -- When we see it -- we find it to be an unsolicited,
intrusive, and offensive request to 'buy into something.' We
immediately 'delete' it from our view and our mind. We ignore
it and wipe out any thought of it. We become annoyed if we
see it again, as JPB has become annoyed by seeing it again
(perhaps because it rings a bell he would prefer not to hear).
One can thus see that JPB finds any request to weep for
victims of murder, of racism, of slavery, of genocide, and of
the holocaust to be "unsolicited," "intrusive," and "offensive."
I plead guilty in respect to him having not "solicited" what he
calls "spam." Much fundamentally good advice is often not
"solicited." Although I do not believe there is a reasonable
human on this planet who does not find each of us should
be "solicited" to weep for those I speak of. But JPB
apparently does not wish to be 'bothered' with thinking about
it. Given his proven 'affection' for baby-killers, racists,
slavers, despot murderers and neo-Nazis, I can understand
why.
I also plead guilty to it being "intrusive." Generally speaking, this is
a forum in which we are ALL "intrusive." And often, what JPB
depicts as "spam," -- these "unsolicited," and "intrusive" suggestions --
must be 'rammed down the throat' of those who seem to lack the
capacity to weep for those victims. In this particular case, given
the gravity of JPB's rapid descent into a caldron of unspeakable
evil, I felt it absolutely necessary to do so, if I were to retain the
slightest bit of self-respect.
Obviously it has fallen on deaf ears, however. Because in the
final instance, he finds a suggestion to weep for victims of murder,
racism, slavery, genocide, and the holocaust to be "offensive."
He would much rather ignore 'thinking about the victim.' And
remain concerned only with baby-killers, racists, slavers, despot
murderers, and Nazi murderers. Please don't 'bother' him
with appeals such as that... since they are only seen as "spam"
to him.
In that sense... we must all pity JPB... since he attributes a
suggestion to 'weep for the victim' to be nothing more meaningful
than "spam." I well understand that JPB wishes to remain blind
to what he calls the "spam" of my appeal to weep for the victims.
But in good conscience, I cannot consider any idea of not
at least appealing to a character within him, that I no longer
believe exists. Thus.. each time he refers to my appeal as
"spam," I have no other recourse but to repeat this explanation
and the reason I make this appeal to him. Here is what he
consider to be "spam."
Don't *giggle* as you have begun to do...
but weep for humanity.
For just once in your pitiful life....
If you cannot weep for Matthew...
If you cannot weep for MLK...
If you cannot weep for innocent slaves...
If you cannot weep for the victims of Saddam...
then at least --
WEEP FOR THAT MURDERED HUMANITY IN DACHAU!
For just once in your life... weep for the victim...
and not the murderer.
Apparently... JPB still hasn't shed a tear.
PV
Just passing by
> For one moment, let us examine the general idea of what we
> call "spam" -- When we see it -- we find it to be an unsolicited,
> intrusive, and offensive request to 'buy into something.
< remaining copy & pasted spam which appears, word for word, in
numerous other "replies" from PV, clipped >
How ironic that PV should post/paste that same text, purporting to
"explain" what spam is, in post after post in various threads here,
rather than address each post he is "replying to" individually.
But PV's understanding of what spam is, and of how his current
behaviour is most certainly spamming, is much clearer than he pretends
it to be. It was he who complained about another poster spamming by
repeatedly pasting the same text into newsgroup messages to save the
trouble of having to write anything new. This is what PV wrote:
_________________________________________
This is day 3 of my pick of the day, AS901 crap which has been
forwarded to bothp...@pacbell.net and ab...@swbell.net, with my
standard complaint of spam.
"as901" <as...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:38EC55E6...@pacbell.net...
> I have taken what the pro VA forces would like us to believe and given
> it a name.
(Rest of crap clipped but sent to ISP.
_________________________________________
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b13H4.742%24p4.19057%40newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net
And also this:
__________________________________________
Day 4. This is the representative post of AS901 spam which I have sent
to ab...@swbell.net and pol...@pacbell.net. "as901"
<as...@pacbell.net>
wrote in message news:38ED425E...@pacbell.net...
I believe it to be the main cause. I posted facts and links. I will
post again and maybe this time you will have your mommy read it to you
.... etc.
___________________________________________
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=GYnH4.4984%24y4.132389%40newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net
What a hypocrite!
A Planet Visitor: the man who has tried to reduce the holocaust to a
spamming campaign because he couldn't be bothered to write anything
new for each post he "replies" to. What a disgusting insult to the
victims of that tragedy.
Clown
>
>
> Don't *giggle* as you have begun to do...
> but weep for humanity.
> For just once in your pitiful life....
> If you cannot weep for Matthew...
> If you cannot weep for MLK...
> If you cannot weep for innocent slaves...
> If you cannot weep for the victims of Saddam...
> then at least --
> WEEP FOR THAT MURDERED HUMANITY IN DACHAU!
> For just once in your life... weep for the victim...
> and not the murderer.
>
> Apparently... JPB still hasn't shed a tear.
>
> PV
>
It is quite easy to put oneself in a moral light by pointing at the
ultimate horror committed by others; and indeed, the dimensions of Dachau
can even make smaller injustices vanish, since for instant one executed
innocent will be plain nothing in comparizon to stacks of murdered human
bodies.
Most unfortunately I came to the conclusion that a large number of people
do not shed tears for the murdered in Dachau, but that they are using
Dachau for propagandist purposes.
Klaun
A Planet Visitor
>A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<147lmvckb1h3vsgqi...@4ax.com>...
>
>
>Everything from PV clipped and almost all of it unread.
Jesus.. you NEVER learn do you?
> However, from
>the look of it, it seems that PV is now trying to deny having giggled
>at the holocaust and having tried to use it as material for the sick
>"games" he plays. Quite astonishing given the ease with which this can
>be proven, as I will now do with the applicable URLs.
>
Whenever you begin your comment with a sentence containing the word
'proven,' we are certain that what is to follow will undoubtedly be the most
craven lie imaginable. And away we go.....
>THE EVIDENCE
>
>Firstly PV's lie about another poster admitting to enjoying pulling
>the wings from sparrows. The exact words that poster wrote were:
>
>"I engage in 'abuse' of deathies as a matter of course. That's what
>they're there for. `echo $DEITY` gave them to us, much as She gave
>sparrows to the domestic cat. They're our playthings."
Those are exactly the words he posted. Thank you... but I thought you
claimed I never posted a TRUE QUOTE??? See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309121518.24d600fe%40posting.google.com
And other of your 'rip out your hair' ravings in that thread. And now
you again admit that you quotes are TRUE QUOTES. How very
insightful in respect to the 'believability' of your entire body of posts. [2]
>And to clarify: the term "deathies" means those who support the death
>penalty, and the "abuse" the poster was referring to there means
>written abuse mostly within this newsgroup, not physical abuse of any
>kind.
>
Whoa... sport. Don't go 'translating' for everyone. They should decide,
as I have decided what 'abuse,' MEANS. Since it has a very large
range of applications. If someone posts ==> I'm going to torture and
abuse you as the cat tortures and abuses the sparrow <== do you
REALLY expect anyone to think that their IMPLICATION is not
'physical abuse'? I agree that 'deathies' is the disgusting term that the
'murderer-lover' has called retentionists. But given that he then goes on to
CHARACTERIZE the "abuse" he speaks of USING ANIMAL LIFE...
it is hardly conceivable that he is speaking of WORDS. He speaks
of GOD... having given SPARROWS to CATS. Not 'words' to
abolitionists. He doesn't say a thing about 'giving words.' Please try to
keep it straight. Do not try to 'justify' his use of animal life forms using
words such as 'written abuse,' as you tried to do to justify his racist slurs
using the word 'pejorative.' Please explain to the group what the cat
does to the sparrow, when God provides that sparrow to that cat? If
you'd be so kind? Since I do not think the cat 'speaks words of abuse'
to the sparrow. Aesop, in fact, more than 26 CENTURIES ago,
recognized that -- "Words may be deeds." I don't think anything
has happened since then that would change his meaning.
>And this is what PV claimed that poster had said:
>
>"... who once admitted that he enjoys ripping the wings off of
>sparrows ..."
>
That's what the cat does to the sparrow. And 'murderer lover' stated he
did it "as a matter of course."
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=jc1jlv8ltj4l3mc5ml0ov8smb8c51dr3se%404ax.com
>
Damn... I just love the way you post links to comments which disprove
your own case. BTW -- read the post you provided --- when will you
answer the question in that post in regards to your lies in your words?--
"Prior to that, there were no such rants from PV about racism - neither
that which he is accusing Desmond of nor general racism in society.
PV only decided to don this anti-racism hat of his after Desmond
began accusing him of racism. " Since I proved that I called the old
'murderer lover' a "fundamental racist" on Aug 14, 2000. Where's that
PROOF that he called me a racist before that date? Given your
'expertise' with gogggle (sic), you should be able to locate the post you
claimed in short order. Just a link... like above, will be sufficient. Or
perhaps the cat ate it?
Don't fret, bullet head... you've never answered one of my questions to
you yet -- demonstrated in every example where you post the comment
<Everything from PV clipped and almost all of it unread. > As you did
above... so I certainly don't expect you to not avoid that question, as
well.
>and...
>
>"And desmond is the one who claimed he enjoyed ripping the wings off
>of sparrows ..."
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=pvcllvc07k46591bfglohjcifnbc25sumg%404ax.com
>
He sure does.... when he claims to do so -- "as a matter of course."
That demonstrates he 'enjoys' doing so. When we do things "as a matter
of course," it is an enjoyable pastime. That is absolutely his meaning. He
enjoys applying 'abuse' to retentionists. I certainly do not think that
'murderer lover' would even deny that was his meaning. There is absolutely
the clear indication of enjoyment expressed in his words. We are all
responsible for our own words... just as you are responsible for your
disgusting attacks on MLK.. his life and words... in your own words.
As you are now responsible for your newly expressed hate for the Jews,
in placing your approval on the holocaust... calling it 'only' a "game'
and erasing those murdered in Dachau, insinuating it was 'only' a
concentration camp. And your abrupt dismissal of possibly shedding a tear
for victims of murder, racism, slavery and anti-Semitism shouting that you
wish not to be 'bothered' with such a request since you find it unsolicited,
intrusive and offensive "spam."
>and...
>
>"And has admitted that he enjoys ripping wings off of sparrows..."
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=mnt6iv438vd6h0a678k2tnoi25l51puhu2%404ax.com
>
Quite right... that would be indicated by his FIRST words -- "I engage in...."
What do you think he means... he's beating his meat? -- 'self-abuse'???
Oops.. well... maybe that IS what he does as he pictures himself as a
cat, torturing and killing that retentionist/sparrow. There have been other
instances where he seems to gain 'sexual gratification' in imagining he
is providing "abuse" to retentionists.
>and...
>
>"Tell us again about how you became sexually aroused as a child when
>you ripped the wings off of injured sparrows."
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=0704ivoka0gcj6ap5pbs6fs6np0v1mgn27%404ax.com
>
There is no doubt that behavior patterns of "abuse" of injured birds begin
in childhood... Someone does not run out and do it in adulthood if
they never did so as a youth. That's psychology 101 stuff, sport. BTW --
picked up that book by Plato yet?
>Then I challenged PV to justify this claim and this is what he wrote
>in reply:
>
>"It's very probable that he 'enjoyed' pulling the wings off of injured
>birds in his youth."
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=oeoqlvs84e5b8ejihfb2bufu5tfiuoed4d%404ax.com
>
>Very different words to before, weren't they? And it is the same every
>time - PV tells an outrageous lie, he then sits back laughing at what
>he has done, then he is challenged to back up his claim, and finally
>he either runs away completely or tries to "explain it away" with some
>pathetically unconvincing drivel such as the above.
>
Hey.. nothing on this planet is CERTAIN when it comes to human
behavior. Jesus... you're evidence of THAT!!! When I say anything
about human behavior it is axiomatic that I am speaking in my
professional capacity as an 'aberrant behavior psychiatrist.' (I have
a case file 12 inches thick on YOU!!). When I say 'There is no
doubt..." I am speaking in that professional capacity, which means
'beyond a reasonable doubt.' Since I don't believe he spent his
youth on the planet Pluto. Given that he has admitted that he
demonstrates this behavior in his adulthood, it's a practical certainty
he did so in his youth. You really DON'T know shit... do you?
Typical ignorant redneck racist anti-Semite, is all you are. Let me
say that, in my professional opinion, there is no doubt ==> he does so
at present, if we are to believe his words <== (although right there...
you seem to have me...since there is not a single word in all of
Usenet, ever posted by 'murderer lover' that has not been
conclusively proven to be a lie. Not one single word!). And if
we accept him 'at his word,' there is overwhelming psychological
evidence that he WOULD have developed such aberrant behavior in
his youth.
>Now on to the evidence of PV playing this "game" of his with the
>subject of the holocaust.
>
>In May of this year, one poster wrote the following:
>
>"I must stress that Dachau, Belson, and Buchanwald were _not_ used as
>death-camps for Jews."
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305290530.16495221%40posting.google.com
>
Yes.. that would the infamous holocaust denier/anti-Semite/neo-Nazi...
Ol' Racist Nev. I am familiar with both his racist and anti-Semitic
'works.' You two have a lot in common. But Dachau WAS used
as a murder camp for Jews. He's made a lot of claims... As has our
resident 'murderer lover'... I've haven't seen one of them yet, that rang
true. They all smell like a mackerel left out for ten days in the sun. In
Ol' Racist Nev's case, there is absolutely no doubt that the direction
his posts take him, when he posts of the Jews... is 100% Jew-hater.
He denies their VERY EXISTENCE by stating that they CANNOT
be "born Jewish." How more disgusting can one statement be?
Presuming that those 'born Jewish' who were murdered by the
Nazis actually did not have an EXISTENCE.
Giving our resident 'murderer lover' his due... he is not a Jew-hater,
nor a true anti-Semite. But his attempts to assimilate himself into
an environment which still contains vestiges of anti-Semitism, have
often led to him saying some very intemperate comment... that I
have ALWAYS called him on.
>In the same post, he also wrote:
>
>"I should point out (as many Merkins seem confused about this) that
>Holocaust historians (inc. Simon Wiesenthal) do not call Dachau a
>'death-camp'. "
But Simon Wiesenthal states "Because there were no extermination
camps on German soil the Neo-Nazis are using this as proof that these
crimes did not happen [...]" See -- [1]
You should carefully read this entire link, where it is recognized that
"Camp gassings in the Altreich" DID occur. Obviously to a lesser
extent than in 'human extermination machines' in Poland. But at what
point do we recognize that the 'gassing of human beings' is the
definition of a 'death camp'? And how can Ol' Racist Nev possibly
begin to compare Dachau, where such 'gassings of humans' occurred --
with Guantanamo -- without everyone realizing that he is trying to
place a more 'favorable' face on Dachau, clearly trying to show
that 'no murders occurred in Dachau,' as implied in his various
comments. Clearly insinuating that Guantanamo is 'worse than Dachau
was,' by stating that Guantanamo "may soon become a death-camp..."
although it holds less than 700 detainees.
Of course, Ol' Racist Nev, in his typical Neo-Nazi fashion was trying to
do just as Simon Wiesenthal stated... both in the post you provide and --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305271322.6bef6222%40posting.google.com
And see from whence he has his source --
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/36quest1.html#6%22
"A death (or mass murder) camp is a concentration camp with special apparatus
specifically designed for systematic murder. Six such camps existed:
Auschwitz-Birkenau, Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor, Treblinka.
All were located in Poland."
You will see that those sites in Poland were ALSO called 'concentration
camps.'
Dachau was a murder camp. Not a mechanical, methodical, assembly-line,
2000 human a day mass murder, 'human extermination machine.' But to
argue that it wasn't a death camp, in the context that Ol' Racist Nev was
arguing is the work of a neo-Nazi, as stated by Simon Wiesenthal HIMSELF
in a letter to Nizkor. [1]
Wiesenthal was stating that ANYONE who over and over, EMPHASIZES
(Ol' Racist Nev used the word "stress") that there were no 'extermination
camps' on German soil.. by constantly screaming that those sites such as
Dachau (where a recognized degree of 'mass murder' DID occur) were
'only' concentration camps, is a Neo-Nazi attempting to use this as 'proof'
that these crimes did not happen.
Read Wiesenthal's words.. and the words of Ol' Racist Nev, which
so often DEMAND that no one think of Dachau as a camp where 'mass
murder' occurred. Mass murders occurring over a period much longer than
the fiendish mechanically precise and analytical assembly-line method
that was a methodical murdering madness in Eastern Europe 'human
extermination machines,' set up at part of the diabolically monstrous
'Endloesung.'
You think that Dachau was NOT a 'death camp'? Are you arguing Ol'
Racist Nev' argument that no murders of Jews occurred in Dachau,
because he needed to STRESS that it wasn't a 'death-camp for Jews'?
You must be DEFENDING that view! Because that was the view
I was attacking, and you are presuming I was wrong to attack it. So see --
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t016/t01679.html
In there, you will find it states in respect to Dachau that "the number
of Jews rose steadily to about 1/3 of the total. Tens of thousands died
through starvation, disease, torture or in cruel medical experiments."
Not a 'death-camp'?? You evil swine! You calling the holocaust
a "game." You evil, evil swine!!
And for those 'medical experiments.' (What a ghastly word to use
for MURDER!) - see --
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x15/xm1597.html
Quoting again -- "In the period from 1942 to 1945, medical experiments
were conducted in concentration camps, rather than in hospitals and
research institutions. They were carried out on human beings regarded
as racially inferior, in locations that were the most concrete expression
of Nazi ideology." That's what the Nazis considered the Jews... and
that's Dachau. Or are you calling Simon Wiesenthal a liar?
Not a 'death-camp'?? You evil swine! You calling the holocaust
a "game." You evil, evil swine!!
And then if you have any question that Jews were not among those
MURDERED at Dachau -- See
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x05/xm0553.html
"As early as 1933, the Jewish share in the prisoners' mortality rate at
Dachau was disproportionately large. In the second period, conditions
in the camps for Jewish prisoners deteriorated drastically. Following
the mass influx of Jews in November 1938, the overall mortality in
all the concentration camps multiplied rapidly, and most of the
victims were Jews."
Not a 'death-camp'?? You evil swine! You calling the holocaust
a "game." You evil, evil swine!!
In all of Ol' Racist Nev's anti-Semitic ravings... he INSISTS that Dachau
held the bare minimum of Jews. I despise ALL of you evil anti-Semites.
All of you! And I find you to be one. You are monsters. An ugly
stain on the very fabric of humanity. With every opportunity you will
go into 'denial' mode... that the holocaust wasn't 'all that bad,' because
Dachau 'wasn't a death camp.' Well, my definition of a 'death camp'
and yours are quite different. And I find you are the one 'giggling' that
I characterize Dachau as a 'death camp.' You find it 'funny' for me
to do so, because those murders in Dachau just do not meet YOUR
'criteria' of a death camp for Jews. It needs to be at least 2,000 a
day, before YOU say. ==> uh...okay... THAT'S a death camp <==
You're the one playing games with 'numbers.' Numbers of murdered
lives, which do not reach a 'sufficient' level in Dachau for you to call
it a death camp. But it's quite easy for Ol' Racist Nev to presume that
Guantanamo will become one. You have no 'problem' with that
'estimate.' But Dachau??? Oh, no... that could NEVER be called a
'death camp.' And I find... and Simon Wiesenthal finds... [1] that
those who demand that it be stressed, as Ol' Racist Nev insisted it
be stressed, over and over, that Dachau was not a death camp, are
simply trying to deny the holocaust. And I find you a party to that
denial. Since you do not condemn Ol' Racist Nev for trivializing
those murders in Dachau. No... instead... it's still 'anti-PV' time...
you'll try to criticize me for categorically STATING that those murders
in Dachau MEANT something. Their murders cannot be erased, using
the evil excuse that Dachau was 'only a concentration camp.'
As I've noted before... you would orally copulate Satan, if he
happened to comment in a negative tone toward one of my
posts. Your evil now presumes that someone who states that
those murders in Dachau MEANT something, is actually "giggling"
about what those murders MEAN. Well, sport... those murders
CANNOT be trivialized, by arguing over and over that ...==>
uh... well... you know they really didn't murder ENOUGH humans in
Dachau to call it a 'death camp.' <== As Ol' Racist Nev insisted
and as you now insist as well. Trust me... it was QUITE ENOUGH
to call Dachau a 'death camp.' A monstrously evil 'death camp.'
>The poster later reiterated that and made clear that he was not trying
>to play down the horror of those camps, but simply reporting the views
>of people such as Simon Wiesenthal. He wrote:
>
Bull shit... he was most certainly trying to DIMINISH the holocaust and
ERASE the murders committed at Dachau... for two very clear reasons --
1) He's a proven anti-Semite/holocaust denier/neo-Nazi. 2) He needed
to argue that there were NO MURDERS in Dachau, in order to claim a
'comparison' to Guantanamo. In fact, he characterized Guantanamo as
WORSE than Dachau... Since he argued that Guantanamo "may soon
become a death-camp too." Keep in mind I am not 'defending' Guantanamo...
I am stating that Ol' Racist Nev is a holocaust denier. There are 700
detainees in Guantanamo. There were tens of thousands of MURDERS
committed in Dachau. Ol' Racist Nev asserts that tens of thousands of
MURDERS in Dachau STILL will not make it a death camp. But he
presumes that 700 detainees held in Guantanamo MAY SOON
BECOME A DEATH-CAMP!! There is not a reasoning man on this
planet who cannot see the ABSURDITY of his claim. There is not
a reasoning man on this planet, aware of the evil works of David Irving,
and others equally evil, who cannot help but recognize the hand of the
holocaust denier behind the words of Ol' Racist Nev.
>"Cos I say Dachau wasn't a death-camp? That's me, Simon Wiesenthal,
>and every reputable Holocaust historian."
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0306020717.5606f088%40posting.google.com
And if you again refer back to [1]... You will find that Simon Wiesenthal
states that those who try to USE those words of his, in the exact manner
that Ol' Racist Nev tried to use them right there, is called a Neo-Nazi.
By none other than Simon Wiesenthal, himself.
Simon Wiesenthal has called him a neo-Nazi. Straight out. And
Ol' Racist Nev ADMITTED -- using his own definition -- that he is
a holocaust denier -- In a very grave 'slip up,' of HIS definition of
what a holocaust denier IS. First, we have this post from him in which
he DEFINES in HIS WORDS -- what a holocaust denier IS --
"That'll be the Holocaust deniers who go out of their way to make a
distinction between concentration-camps (such as Dachau and Belson)
and death-camps such (as Treblinka, Sorbibor, etc.)."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305300601.31e990fc%40posting.google.com
But THEN.. in three separate posts, he DOES GO OUT OF HIS WAY
to make a distinction between Dachau and death camps.
His words -- "This is not true, Daniel: (for instance) Dachau, Belson,
Buchanwald were concentration camps, all of which held 'career-criminals',
political-prisoners and the 'work-shy' to begin with, later on also
_POWs_ and (at the very end) evacuated Jews from the forced-labour
camps and death-camps in the east.
All three camps I mention were _concentration camps_. _'Gitmo' is a
concentration camp_. If Donna's article is to be believed it may soon
become a death-camp too."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305271322.6bef6222%40posting.google.com
His words again -- ""I must stress that Dachau, Belson, and Buchanwald were
_not_ used as death-camps for Jews."
Notice the EMPHASIS underline on "_not_," Notice the use of the
word "stress."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305290530.16495221%40posting.google.com
His words again -- "Dachau wasn't a "death-camp".
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=f85d58f0.0306181313.5b5a3966%40posting.google.com
>But that didn't stop PV from playing his sick "game". PV wrote:
>
There is no doubt who is playing "sick games."
Why DO you hate, JPB? Why is your ONLY concern for the
MURDERER... and NEVER the victim? Remember how you
called it "spam" to ask you to shed a tear for victims? What is
the matter with you? Where is your sense of emotion for victims
of murder? There is no doubt that you are infected with some
form of a 'sickness of the soul.'
>'Of course he has also claimed that the death camps were "okay," since
>those executed as Jews, could have only chosen to BE JEWS. '
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=unbcdv0ammt9g9ovl3uf0dndc4nrfijfi3%404ax.com
>
That's what he has argued all along. He has argued that there are no
humans who are BORN JEWISH. See --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305010549.2586f62f%40posting.google.com
And the many Nazi ravings that followed his claim that Jews cannot be
"Born Jewish." Twisting and turning in every instance. Thus, if they were
executed AS JEWS, they must have obviously... to his view... chosen to
be Jews. Hoping to 'justify' the murders committed on Jews. But the
fact is they were executed BECAUSE they were BORN JEWS. Ol'
Racist Nev would make their murders non-existent. While I would
argue that their existence and their murders have PROFOUND
implications in respect to our very nature. Which, if we refuse to examine,
or attempt to diminish or dismiss... will ultimately destroy us as a species.
>Now note that PV put the word "okay" in DOUBLE quotation marks. This
>is someone who has for a very long time claimed that when he lies
>about what someone has said, it is not really a lie if it is only in
>single quotation marks because that is, apparently, the American way.
>So what happened there?
Hey... you put the word "game" in DOUBLE quotation marks, and I
never used it! You're the one now having admitted to playing "games"
with murdered lives. Insuring that if the 'count' of those murdered lives
is not high enough for you... well... -- we just 'can't' call that a death
camp -- in your view. It's hardly imaginable that ONE WORD
constitutes a quote... since I can provide dozens of posts from Ol'
Racist Nev in which he used the word 'okay' if that's what you're
looking for. In fact, it was simply an oversight, since it was only
one word, and I meant to emphasize it, and certainly should have
just capitalized it for emphasis. Big fucking deal. Of course, you're
simply a picky racist anti-Semite. Believing that crap like that... as
when you ranted and raved about a period, which most certainly
separated EFFECT from MOTIVE in that statement, has any
validity in respect to your pathetic ravings.. And since Ol'
Racist Nev uses British grammar, I would refer you to --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=f85d58f0.0306181313.5b5a3966%40posting.google.com
Ol' Racist Nev stated to me "you think the 'Gitmo' concentration camp
is a 'good thing'." Where does he come off QUOTING ME as using
the phrase 'good thing' in reference to Guantanamo? If he can
QUOTE me as claiming Guantanamo is a 'good thing,' I can
QUOTE him as saying Dachau was OKAY. In addition to his
many implications that Dachau WAS a 'safety haven' for Jews, since
he has argued that no Jews were murdered in Dachau. He claimed
the only Jews murdered, were those removed from Dachau to
other execution sites.
>The truth is that the poster in question never said that the death
>camps were okay.
Of course he did. The QUOTE was in his MIND... in the exact words
that are found in his mind. The meaning he places on Dachau in his
MIND is that of being OKAY in comparison to Guantanamo. He
DEFENDS Dachau over and over... as if no murders took place
in Dachau, while going so far as to imply that Guantanamo will
BECOME the 'death-camp' that he believes is the ONLY
characterization of a death camp... that of those in Eastern Europe.
In that respect he DEFILES every victim of the holocaust. Not
one murder has taken place in Guantanamo... it holds less than
700 detainees, yet he is willing to go so far as to contend that it
will become what he contends is the ONLY 'death-camp'... those
'human extermination machines' that mechanically slaughtered millions
of innocent human beings. And when I argue that he has ripped
out the heart, the soul, the spirit of the Jew... every bit as much as the
Nazis ripped out their lives... you contend I am only "giggling"
about the holocaust. When it is YOU "giggling" by inferring one
can do something 'other than weep' about that monstrous event
in human history. Given that you find the thought of weeping for
the victims of the holocaust to be unsolicited, intrusive and offensive
"spam," I can well understand how you might be morally confused.
To imply one finds 'something funny' about the holocaust, one must
show where there is an implication that intends to diminish the
true nature of the holocaust. If anyone was doing just that, it
was Ol' Racist Nev... and like the 'good Nazi soldier' that you are...
you intend to defend his "giggling," by claiming that I 'insulted' him,
in recognizing that his characterizations of Dachau were meant
to give the impression that 'life there was OKAY.'
> PV lied. He lied because he knew that poster would be
>angered by that lie, as indeed the poster was.
If I can anger a racist, or a Jew-hater... it's been a "good day" for
me. Since they more readily expose that racism and hate for
Jews to the reasoning reader. Given that my "personal ends" are
anti-Racism and the good fight against anti-Semitism. I think I do
so with you...which pleases me. I would not waste one moment with
you otherwise. I would hope that I make you furious... which seems
to be the case. It is ALWAYS good for me to see you go ballistic, at
the recognition of being bitch-slapped up and down AADP, by yours
truly. As everyone here sees you bang your head against the desk...
slam your fist against the wall... rip off your KKK hood to expose
those racist eyes bulging ... that familiar facial twitch, and throbbing vein
in your temple... the flush to your 'murderer lover cheeks' now a
crimson red... your trembling chin on the verge of tears for those
murderers.. the spittle forming off the edges of your lips. As the rage
inside consumes you... furious and dismayed at being unmasked as
first a murderer lover [2]... then a mass murderer lover... then a racist
and now... a holocaust denier. Soothed only by removing that picture
of the 'Great White Whale' that you carry in your wallet, kissing it
reverently and passionately, and running it across your now blotched
face and lips.
> PV wanted to see that
>anger expressed through that poster's reply. He did it for a "laugh"
>and a "wheeze" and for a sick and disgusting "joke". PV was quite
>happy to exploit the Nazi holocaust and its victims as part of his
>cheap points scoring "game" and emotional need for revenge against a
>poster he disliked for reasons entirely unconnected to the matter then
>under discussion.
>
I find that I must again recognize the evil nature in JPB, in trying
to imply that BECAUSE I find 'no good' whatsoever existed in Dachau,
and I condemn Ol' Racist Nev, for hinting there was 'good' in
Dachau, in his 'defending' Dachau, that it is somehow "giggling"
on my part. I can only suggest he sees this, because he has admitted
he is unable to weep for murder victims.
JPB does not believe that murders were committed by the thousands...
the tens of thousands at Dachau. He found my description of Dachau
as an evil stain on our souls, to be "giggling." Yet, I find nothing
to "giggle" about, or call a "game," as JPB does, about Dachau
or the holocaust. So doesn't JPB "giggle" at the idea that I have
said there was NO GOOD in Dachau? Doesn't he "giggle" because
I condemn anyone who even slightly implies there was any GOOD
in Dachau , as Ol' Racist Nev implied by 'stressing' that Dachau
was 'okay'? Does any rational human believe that one can erase
that black clot of history by stating, as Ol' Racist Nev stated -- "I
must stress that Dachau, Belson, and Buchanwald were _not_
used as death-camps for Jews."? Can anyone not possibly see
that as an attempt at the minimum to PARDON the murders
committed in Dachau?
I most assuredly insist that such a black clot on our very nature
CANNOT be erased or pardoned. At least in the lifetime of any
now living human. I certainly would DEMAND that my young
grandchildren NEVER presume it has been erased. I find that
JPB's characterization of that view to be "giggling" says a hell
of a lot more about JPB, than it could ever say about me. It
says that JPB does NOT believe that Dachau needs to be
recognized as 'evil personified.' And I believe that makes
HIM the same as Ol' Racist Nev. The same neo-Nazi scum
that Simon Wiesenthal has quite astutely recognized.
If you believe you can raise my anger, JPB... with your obsessive
lies, you are quite wrong. My work is to raise YOUR anger... and
it is well underway. You are not worth finding new words to describe
you...because the same words condemn you as evil. The fact that
you even imply I would "giggle" about the holocaust, or characterize
it as a "game," which you have done, is clear evidence of your
emotional decline here... as I keep pounding and pounding away
at your demonstrated immorality.
>Shortly after this, I posted a message referring to several proven
>lies PV had recently told about other posters, and included the above
>one. I wrote:
>
>'You did the very same thing to Euro when you accused him of saying
>that "849 murderers are the same as millions of innocent Black slaves"
>which he certainly did not say, and now you have done it to Neville by
>claiming that he said the Nazi death camps were "okay" which he
>certainly did not say.'
>
>http://www.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0305300225.1471ff8e%40posting.google.com
>
Oh.. he 'claimed it,' all right. anyone can see that. You really have this
deep streak of evil in you JPB. As I said.. All my words have obviously
fallen on deaf ears. Because in the final instance, you find a suggestion
to weep for victims of murder, racism, slavery, genocide, and the holocaust
to be "offensive." You would much rather ignore 'thinking about the
victim.' You're certainly intent on ignoring the victims of Dachau.. You
are concerned only for baby-killers, racists, slavers, despot murderers, and
Nazi murderers.
>That was the only reference I made in that post to PV's "okay" lie
>about Neville (other than simply mentioning his name near the end) and
>to the best of my recollection I have never mentioned it on any other
>occasion. Yet PV, only a few days ago referring to that very brief
>mention, wrote:
>
>."JPB's obsession with defending anti-Semites who argue that no Jews
>were murdered in Dachau, because 'Dachau was not a death-camp for
>Jews.' "
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=e3lfmvsq96nfasjquubnn148skiqn456pk%404ax.com
>
>"Obsession"? "Anti-Semites"? I was pointing out a proven lie told by
>PV, regardless of the discussion it appeared in, and he calls that an
>"obsession with defending anti-Semites ..."
>
Why do you hate the Jews, JPB? What drives this rage inside of you that
you would call it a "giggle" when someone expresses revulsion in respect
to the murders committed in the holocaust? Why would you call the murder
of MILLIONS of Jews, simply a "game" to you? Why would you try to
erase the black stain of Dachau, by agreeing that it was 'no worse than
Guantanamo'? These are questions that go directly to the heart of some
rage inside of you. And I'd really like to know WHY? Why do you hate
the Jews? Or more precisely....Why do you hate all victims? Why are
your perceptions of our worth totally topsy-turvy? If you could express it
concisely, I might be able to get a better grasp on the anti-Semitism in
Europe. But presently I am at a loss, without understanding WHY you
hate the Jews? At least for a start to examine your rage. Have they
HARMED you in the past? Does their appearance trouble you? Do you
fear them? Did you parents teach you how to hate? It would also help
me understand why Ol' Racist Nev hates the Jews so much.
Listen carefully, JPB... since I will provide a profound truth to you -- One
can only be "giggling" when they try to EXCUSE or ERASE the scope
of a monstrous event, such as when Ol' Racist Nev tried to EXCUSE
and ERASE the scope of the holocaust by intimating that Dachau was 'not
as bad as Guantanamo.' When I stated that he had found Dachau to be
OKAY, that was not a "giggle," but a recognition that he was intent on
INSULTING every victim murdered in Dachau. If it enraged you.. it
served its purpose. And the same is in evidence with 'murderer lover'
as he tries to EXCUSE and ERASE the scope of 9//11, by adding his
'signature giggle' in an expression of the U.S. getting its comeuppance, as
far as he is concerned. While totally unconcerned that his methods might
be seen as an insult to those murdered victims. You see both Ol' Racist
Nev and the Nameless One are INSULTING the murdered victims. I
have never expressed any such thought. I have NEVER expressed
ANYTHING but absolute revulsion in respect to the holocaust
(and 9/11). Ol' Racist Nev tried to EXCUSE and ERASE the scope
of the holocaust by insinuating in so many instances that Dachau was no
worse than Guantanamo. Don't you think that is an attempt to show that no
murders were committed in Dachau? If you cannot see that HE was
insulting those murdered in Dachau... I feel for you. And if you contend
that I feel anything other than an expression of my rage that Ol' Racist
Nev would try to DIMINISH the holocaust in such a manner, then you
are the one who is "giggling." And it's an ugly sight.
>And that is all part of PV's "game". He throws around these false
>accusations of "racism" and "anti-Semitism" not only at those he
>chooses as the initial focus of his "games" but also at those
>criticising him for playing them.
Why would you try to trivialize the murders that occurred in Dachau
and take a stance that Guantanamo could become a death camp,
with 700 detainees, but Dachau could not -- given there were tens
of thousands of murders committed in Dachau? Can't you see that
arguing this intends to directly imply that Dachau was 'not that bad,'
given that Guantanamo has only 700 detainees. I would ask you again,
what number of murders does it take to make a concentration camp
a death camp?
>And, as the above proves, he is even happy to trample over the sacred
>memories of the holocaust's victims to help him to play those "games"
>and to give him a laugh, a giggle, a chuckle, as he looks on at the
>results. The man is beneath contempt.
>
What a hypocrite... You called the holocaust a "game." You are the
one desecrating the memory of every murder victim in Dachau, by
hoping to 'reshape' Dachau, leaving with the impression that 'no
murders' occurred in Dachau, because it was 'just' a concentration
camp, to you. How many murders does it take, for you to call it a
death camp? Given that Ol' Racist Nev compared Guantanamo to
Dachau and found them similar. Do you find them similar? And if
so, who speaks for the murdered of Dachau?
>So there is the evidence backing up every claim made in my previous
>post in this thread. PV can deny, deny, deny, as he always does, but
>he can't remove that evidence and those URLs from the archives. Nor
>can he remove this URL:
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
>
>That is the link to the first post in this thread. I now intend to
>post that link whenever I see PV playing his "games" of lying about
>other posters, and whenever I see him pretending to care about the
>victims of the Nazi holocaust, as he sometimes does for the purpose of
>trying to build a respectable image for himself. That is just an act,
>just as his "anti-racist" posts reflect another of his acts. He posts
>them to give him something to link to whenever he is accused of
>anything relating to racism/anti-Semitism. He thinks that with those
>posts in place he is untouchable whenever race matters are discussed
>here. He plants those posts as seeds for that purpose.
>
Thank you for that reference, since it rather demonstrates you enjoy
'falling on your own sword,' as it proves that you claimed the holocaust
was simply a "game," with you stating that because I expressed revulsion
over the murders committed in Dachau it was simply "giggling" over
those murders. While it's rather obvious that calling an expression
of revulsion over the murders committed in Dachau - "giggling" - is
an unbelievably obscene lack of respect for those murdered in Dachau.
Depriving them of the last vestige of dignity they might hold in their role as
victims of the most monstrous, methodical annihilation of human beings
ever witnessed. The Nazis took away the lives of those murdered in
Dachau, but as with Ol' Racist Nev... you would rip out their souls, and
their spirit with such an insult. There is simply no excuse for your
nauseating attempts to excuse those murders, by claiming someone who
demonstrates a fierce loathing of those murders is simply "giggling."
>But they count for nothing because the posts which reveal the true PV
>are those in which he has giggled at the Nazi holocaust, and exploited
>its victims to help him play his stupid and wicked "games".
I am heartened by the fact you have become so enraged in my
exposing both Ol' Racist Nev and you as certified anti-Semites, and
holocaust deniers. Become so enraged that you would claim someone
is *giggling" if they recognize, and demand that others recognize that
Dachau was NOT 'simply a rather humane concentration camp at a time
of great turmoil in Europe,' as Ol' Racist Nev clearly stated, and a view
which you now state you agree with. Of course the same rage was
drawn out of you, when I bitch-slapped you constantly in your love
for a flab-filled baby killer [2]. And when you cursed the very existence
of MLK, while damning the one who would provide a tribute to his life
and works, in your many raging, spittle-filled diatribes lasting many
months. It's simply part of my "personal ends" to enrage both racists
and anti-Semites... and my work seems to be going quite well.
PV
[1] http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar03.html
[2] http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/JPB.html
A Planet Visitor
>A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<m6bqmv0chpn1f51k6...@4ax.com>...
>
>
>
>> For one moment, let us examine the general idea of what we
>> call "spam" -- When we see it -- we find it to be an unsolicited,
>> intrusive, and offensive request to 'buy into something.
>
>< remaining copy & pasted spam which appears, word for word, in
>numerous other "replies" from PV, clipped >
>
Meaning you admit you will NEVER concern yourself with the
victim. Never. But we already knew that since you have admitted
you are a "holocaust revisionist" now out to demonstrate how "inept"
my comments are in arguing that murders of Jews occurred in great
number in Dachau... and cannot be erased by simply calling Dachau
a 'concentration camp.' Who said so?... well.. Simon Wiesenthal
said so... [1] But there isn't a "holocaust revisionist" who believes
Simon Wiesenthal...unless he tries to distort his words, as so many
have tried to do.
>How ironic that PV should post/paste that same text, purporting to
>"explain" what spam is, in post after post in various threads here,
>rather than address each post he is "replying to" individually.
>
[2]
>But PV's understanding of what spam is, and of how his current
>behaviour is most certainly spamming, is much clearer than he pretends
>it to be. It was he who complained about another poster spamming by
>repeatedly pasting the same text into newsgroup messages to save the
>trouble of having to write anything new. This is what PV wrote:
>
Consider my previous definition of "spam" -- unsolicited, intrusive
and offensive. The posts of AS901, into a group, where he was
seen as a pariah by every member of that group, meets every standard
of those three conditions. He was not 'retired military' but posting
to a newsgroup dedicated to 'retired military.' he was not a 'Vietnam
veteran' but posting to a newsgroup dedicated to 'Vietnam veterans.'
His posts ALWAYS and ONLY were PERSONAL complaints about
his medical condition, and how he felt the VA owed him a retirement
and free medical care, although he had been discharged as "unsuitable
for service" as proven by other members having investigated his past
military record. He had wrecked a jeep in Korea, while on guard duty,
and was courts-martialed for it, and had to pay for the damages. He
was cashiered out of the military as 'unsuitable,' yet he used that accident
to claim all sorts of ailments, ranging from epilepsy on down. None of
them conceivably related to military service. In all cases they turned
him down... but he continued to rave in these groups, who could
obviously do nothing for him. They treated him with respect for a
long time... until the goblins started to come out of the closet and
it was realized what a lunatic he was. Just as the goblins are beginning
to come out of your closet. He was a total pain in the ass, in a
newsgroup that is actually meant as a more comradely group, rather
than the confrontational group one expects to find in AADP. The
more I think of it... the more all of YOUR posts resemble "spam."
--------------------------------------
But it's actually rather FRIGHTENING how demented you have become...
intrusively going back so many years... to a group totally divorced from
this one... and picking out the most inane examples to begin raving
about. I really am AFRAID of you... seriously. In a physical sense.
Because you certainly now appear to me to be becoming unhinged...
mentally. More so that any other poster, EVER. You are certainly
one very real reason why I do not disclose my REAL NAME and
location, even if you live in the U.K. I would certainly not call Louise
Woodward, the 'Great White Whale' [3] in any real life argument with
you, in fear that you would ACTUALLY retaliate in a dangerous
way... PHYSICALLY. And if we were to hold THIS dialog in real life...
I believe I would DISTANCE myself PHYSICALLY from you...
post haste... with a smile upon my departure, and a hope that you
presume you have won. And then go home and oil my automatic,
and check the locks on my door.
Your obsessions are just too irrational. And in 'real life' I would
certainly not involve myself in any arguments with you in respect
to racism or anti-Semitism, since it's obvious to me that your
feelings in support of racism and anti-Semitism are something I
could not deal with. I would be afraid that I would find a
flaming cross burning on my lawn some evening, and a big "X'
marked on my front door for future reference.
You seem unsettling disturbed to me. Unable to separate this
imaginary forum from REAL LIFE, in some DELUSIONAL
SENSE. You have a serious mental problem, demonstrated by
your behavior here. Really!!! Looking for 'evidence' of my
calling another poster's posts "spam." From another group,
quite different than this group... so many years ago. While
obviously so demented that YOU have called my present posts
"spam." Posts which are condemnations of the holocaust, and
condemnations of anyone presuming that murders did not
occur in Dachau... because they argue that Dachau was 'only'
a concentration camp. And then you call the holocaust a
"game." That's frightening!! Your obsessions are just a bit too
deep for me, JPB. When you become obsessed... such as with
the 'Great White Whale,' or hate for MLK, or hate for me, or
hate for Jews... you become enraged, and irrational... as you
have now become... and at that point, nothing is beneath you,
in any dialog.
Nor do I see you as a confrontational kind of guy... since you
actually avoid serious discussions. You simply want your way...
and that's it. As with the 'Great White Whale.' You're more
the seductive and sneaky type, judging from your posting style.
And in real life, you strike me as the kind of guy who, if he is
irritated by another, will WAIT... and follow... and WAIT...and
at the minimum... puncture all the tires on that guy's car. Or
make constant harassing phone calls, or worse. Because I
see you as the type who, finding you could not get your way...
or if you were fired or released from a job... would return with
a weapon to do physical damage, at a later date, after the rage,
and 'desire for some imaginary revenge, now very real revenge...
boiled over inside you. You could not 'get your way,' with the
'Great White Whale' argument with me... and it spilled over into
so many other hateful areas that exposed your great emotional
vulnerabilities and horrendous hate for so many of our species.
In that sense, I thank God for Usenet... because here you are
an impotent piece of crap. And I will insure that everyone knows
it... since I am protected by the anonymity of Usenet. So fair
warning to the Nameless One.. or anyone here... do not EVER
reveal my REAL NAME if you happen to learn it!!
----------------------------------------------------
>_________________________________________
>
>This is day 3 of my pick of the day, AS901 crap which has been
>forwarded to bothp...@pacbell.net and ab...@swbell.net, with my
>standard complaint of spam.
>
>"as901" <as...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>news:38EC55E6...@pacbell.net...
>> I have taken what the pro VA forces would like us to believe and given
>> it a name.
>(Rest of crap clipped but sent to ISP.
>
And the dementia deepens...
>_________________________________________
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b13H4.742%24p4.19057%40newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net
>
>
>And also this:
>
And deepens....
________________________________________
>
>Day 4. This is the representative post of AS901 spam which I have sent
>to ab...@swbell.net and pol...@pacbell.net. "as901"
><as...@pacbell.net>
>wrote in message news:38ED425E...@pacbell.net...
>I believe it to be the main cause. I posted facts and links. I will
>post again and maybe this time you will have your mommy read it to you
>.... etc.
>
And deepens...
>___________________________________________
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=GYnH4.4984%24y4.132389%40newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net
>
>
>What a hypocrite!
>
And deepens...
>A Planet Visitor: the man who has tried to reduce the holocaust to a
>spamming campaign because he couldn't be bothered to write anything
>new for each post he "replies" to. What a disgusting insult to the
>victims of that tragedy.
JPB... the man who tried to claim that shedding a tear for victims is "spam."
And the holocaust was a "game." The reason I need to repeat my posts
to you... is that they never sink in, nor do I ever get an answer to the
questions raised. So let me repeat this -- and you call it "spam" if you wish,
but the 'eye of the beholder' will see who is avoiding the implication of
your trying to erase the murders committed in Dachau.
Why do you hate the Jews, JPB? What drives this rage inside of you that
you would call it a "giggle" when someone expresses revulsion in respect
to the murders committed in the holocaust? Why would you call the murder
of MILLIONS of Jews, simply a "game" to you? Why would you try to
erase the black stain of Dachau, by agreeing that it was 'no worse than
Guantanamo'? These are questions that go directly to the heart of some
rage inside of you. And I'd really like to know WHY? Why do you hate
the Jews? Or more precisely....Why do you hate all victims? Why are
your perceptions of our worth totally topsy-turvy? If you could express it
concisely, I might be able to get a better grasp on the anti-Semitism in
Europe. But presently I am at a loss, without understanding WHY you
hate the Jews? At least for a start to examine your rage. Have they
HARMED you in the past? Does their appearance trouble you? Do you
fear them? Did you parents teach you how to hate? It would also help me
understand why Ol' Racist Nev hates the Jews so much.
Listen carefully, JPB... since I will provide a profound truth to you -- One
can only be "giggling" when they try to DIMINISH or ERASE the scope
of a monstrous event, such as when Ol' Racist Nev tried to DIMINISH
and ERASE the scope of the holocaust by implying that Dachau was 'not
as bad as Guantanamo.' When I stated that he had found Dachau to be
OKAY, that was not a "giggle" but a recognition that he was intent on
INSULTING every victim murdered in Dachau. If it enraged you.. it
served its purpose. And the same is in evidence with the Nameless One
as he tries to DIMINISH and ERASE the scope of 9//11, by adding his
'signature giggle' in an expression of the U.S. getting its comeuppance, as
far as he is concerned. While totally unconcerned that his methods might
be seen as an insult to those murdered victims. You see both Ol' Racist
Nev and the Nameless One are INSULTING the murdered victims. I
have never expressed any such thought. I have NEVER expressed
ANYTHING but absolute revulsion in respect to the holocaust
(and 9/11). Ol' Racist Nev tried to DIMINISH and ERASE the scope
of the holocaust by implying in so many instances that Dachau was no
worse than Guantanamo. Don't you think that is an attempt to show that no
murders were committed in Dachau? If you cannot see that HE was
insulting those murdered in Dachau... I feel for you. And if you contend
that I feel anything other than an expression of my rage that Ol' Racist
Nev would try to DIMINISH the holocaust in such a manner, then you
are the one who is "giggling." And it's an ugly sight.
PV
[1] http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar03.html
[2] http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/The_victims.htm
[3] http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/JPB.html
Just passing by
< clipped >
Here are a few extracts from PV's post denying that he is giggling
about this matter:
> Given your
> 'expertise' with gogggle (sic), you should be able to locate the post you
> claimed in short order. Just a link... like above, will be sufficient. Or
> perhaps the cat ate it?
That is how seriously PV is taking this matter. Here is another one:
> Don't fret, bullet head...
And another:
> That's psychology 101 stuff, sport. BTW --
> picked up that book by Plato yet?
And another:
> When I say anything
> about human behavior it is axiomatic that I am speaking in my
> professional capacity as an 'aberrant behavior psychiatrist.' (I have
> a case file 12 inches thick on YOU!!).
And they were just from the first part of that post.
And he claims he is not giggling about this matter? Just look at the
above extracts - he thinks this whole thing is a big joke and now he
is not even trying to hide his laughter. Just how blatant are the
above giggles from PV?
"Or perhaps the cat ate it?" That shows the mood PV was in when he was
writing that post.
Remainder of PV's insult to the holocaust victims clipped and unread
(I didn't have the stomach to read any more of his laughing at the
holocaust).
A Planet Visitor
I apologize for the ugly turn this dialog has taken. Unfortunately, I could
not permit some of the ideas expressed by both Ol' Racist Nev, and JPB,
to have gone unchallenged. Knowing you are German, it is often very
unpleasant to find it necessary to bring up the past in respect to the holocaust.
Of course, no one expects to blame you personally for that horrendous
chapter in our past. It is simply a burden you carry, that is greater than the
burden others might carry, because of the legacy of your birth. Just as MY
birth forces ME to carry the terrible and brutal legacy of slavery. No matter
what excuse we may offer, history has placed this burden on us. And all
we can do is accept it, and do our utmost to demonstrate we will live our
lives with the purpose of atoning for that legacy in every way we can.
We are not responsible for that legacy -- but given that greater burden,
simply because of our birth. Thus, we also have a higher obligation to oppose
every instance we see, which might tend to excuse the events which placed
this burden on us, or which appear to perpetuate the ideas that were part
of the creation of those horrendous events. When we try to provide an
excuse of denial of those events, we only demonstrate that we intend in
some degree to distance those events from the reality that they represent.
History DEMANDS of you that higher obligation to the Jews. As it
DEMANDS of me that higher obligation to American Blacks. I am
sorry if you might not believe that it is demanded of you... but I see it no
other way.
Now.. without trying to be mean or spiteful here... I need to speak the
truth, as I see it. There is to me, a clear recognition that the U.S. has not
fully come to grips with racism. Not by a long-shot. At the same moment,
I need to say, that I find that Germany has not fully come to grips with latent
anti-Semitism. Germany is still subconsciously determined to become
"Judenrein," in my opinion. The only city in Germany that has seen an
increase in Jewish population in some time... is Berlin, in some of the
quarters in that city. And to me, ominously, that is also the city that has
experienced a rise in Neo-Nazi activities. Just as the racist in America,
gravitates his hate toward where a greater number of Blacks live... I
find the same in Germany. IMHO. I would not dare point a finger at
Germany in respect to anti-Semitism... without fully recognizing
that the same, and perhaps even worse phenomenon in respect to racism
against Blacks, exists in the U.S. I only hope you take this in the
manner in which it is offered. My perception of the flaws in both
the U.S. and Germany... TODAY.
Turning to the present dialog, here in AADP... it began with a statement from
Ol' Racist Nev that COULD NOT go unchallenged by me. That was his
claim that -- "One is not 'born Jewish' anymore than one is 'born Cathy' or 'born
Athiest'!!" See [1] This seemed to me to be a declaration which intended to
annihilate even further the Jew. Similar to someone saying one is not 'born
Black' or 'born Italian.' It seemed that he was intent on even further eliminating
the Jew as a 'human being.' Taking away the spirit and the soul of the Jew.
Denigrating him in the most unspeakable manner, with a demand that ONLY
orthodox Judaic religious doctrine could determine Jewish ethnic descent.
In his view.. a Jew could only be 'concocted' by words on a piece of
religious dogma.
That dialog between us, was harsh and bitter. But it grew even worse.
It grew to the point that Ol' Racist Nev implied that no Jews were
murdered in Dachau, in a great number of his posts [2]. It should
be recognized that Simon Wiesenthal, has himself accused those who
offer such excuses for 'concentration camps' rather than 'death camps'
in the "Altreich," as doing so in the role of Neo-Nazis, attempting to
discredit the murder of Jews that took place in the "Altreich," and
thus diminish the true scope of the holocaust [3].
I know you and I have had our differences, even in respect to the subject
of the Jews... but your comment struck a meaningful chord... since
looking at it in retrospect you will see that Ol' Racist Nev was the FIRST
to introduce Dachau... with the exact purpose you speak of... "using
Dachau for propagandist purposes," in 'comparing' it to Guantanamo,
which is certainly an attempt to erase the murders committed in Dachau.
I did not mention Dachau until HE DID.
Of course, the argument that Dachau was 'only' a concentration camp,
and no Jews were murdered there, is disproved in the vast amount of
evidence existing showing that Jews were murdered in great number in
Dachau, even over a much longer period of time than those murders
that occurred in the Eastern Europe 'extermination centers.' Unquestionably,
not anywhere near to the same quantity. But certainly not murders we
can simply ignore because they did not 'meet that quantity.' [4]. Pastor
Niemöller, himself a prisoner in Dachau once estimated the total deaths
in Dachau at 238,756. See [7] for that reference. One cannot ignore
that Dachau WAS a death camp... using semantics which intend to
erase those murders committed. In the end -- when we ask ourselves --
Why?.. "Why" did this happen?.. we are left with the same shameful
answer that a prisoner in Dachau would have received had he asked
that question of any guard, about any aspect of existence or purpose
in Dachau ==> Here...there is no "why." <== That question is not
answerable!!!
It is unfortunate that this 'argument' in denial of the murders in Dachau has
now been picked up by JPB, since it appears Ol' Racist Nev has left...
at least for the moment. JPB -- who is not known for providing sane
posts, when any of his obsessions are threatened. JPB -- who now states
that the holocaust was a "game" to him, and that my outrage over the
implication from Ol' Racist Nev that no murders of Jews had taken place in
Dachau, because Dachau was 'only' a concentration camp,' is only "giggling"
at those murders. Links to just two of JPB's posts making such unbelievably
insensitive comments (to put it in the mildest of terms) in respect to both the
holocaust and the murders committed in Dachau, are referenced in [5].
Additionally, one can now see that JPB has once again, as in his defense
of a proven baby-killer [6], and his many attacks on MLK, and anti-racism
itself {see [7] for only a small sampling of his many attacks on MLK), has
become rather irrational in his raving responses to my condemnation of
Ol' Racist Nev... a proven anti-Semite/holocaust denier/Neo-Nazi.. JPB --
Once again, recognizing that yet another of his obsessions is being threatened.
I simply will NOT stand for it. And again, I apologize that this sensitive subject
has apparently so dominated this newsgroup for a few months. But it was NOT
of my doing. It was the doing of Ol' Racist Nev, in [1] and [2], and now JPB
in his defense of the arguments posted by Ol' Racist Nev, with his comments in
[5], and his now obviously obsessive ravings, which unbelievably HE provides,
showing HIM calling the holocaust a "game," and HIM characterizing my revulsion
in respect to the murders committed in Dachau, as "giggling." All amid the
unbelievably grotesque present hysterical ravings of JPB -- in an obvious
anti-Semitic attempt at 'holocaust revisionism,' as another of his causes...
'holocaust revisionism'... is threatened by my comments.
PV
[1]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305010549.2586f62f%40posting.google.com
[2]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305290530.16495221%40posting.google.com
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305271322.6bef6222%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0306020717.5606f088%40posting.google.com
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=f85d58f0.0306181313.5b5a3966%40posting.google.com
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305300601.31e990fc%40posting.google.com
[3]
http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar03.html
[4]
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t016/t01679.html
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x15/xm1597.html
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x05/xm0553.html
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/dachau/
http://www.holocaust-history.org/dachau-gas-chambers/
[5]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309190831.105ba1e9%40posting.google.com
[6]
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/JPB.html
[7]
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0305300225.1471ff8e%40posting.google.com
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0305280104.10afa0cf%40posting.google.com
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309110241.336717aa%40posting.google.com
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0305231107.6482442%40posting.google.com
>Klaun
Just passing by
> >
> I apologize for the ugly turn this dialog has taken.
And where is your apology for accusing Jurgen of anti-Semitism when
clearly he was never guilty of that?
Yes, PV, that was yet another attempt by you to intimidate someone who
was wiping the floor with you. You couldn't match him in debate so you
tried instead to hijack a sensitive issue - anti-Semitism - because
you thought it would give you an advantage you could never hope to
gain through fair means - just as you have done so many times, against
so many different people, with your bogus anti racism.
And when are you going to apologise to ALL German people for the
bigotry and hatred you have polluted this group with against a now
peace loving nation - one which refused to give support to the US &
UK's monstrous, murderous and totally illegal war against the
virtually defenceless people of Iraq?
You are an intolerant bigot, PV, and the disgraceful words you have
written about Germans - not to mention other Europeans and Arabs - in
this forum make you the very last person who should be preaching about
racism or anti-Semitism.
> Germany is still subconsciously determined to become
> "Judenrein," in my opinion. The only city in Germany that has seen an
> increase in Jewish population in some time... is Berlin, in some of the
> quarters in that city. And to me, ominously, that is also the city that has
> experienced a rise in Neo-Nazi activities. Just as the racist in America,
> gravitates his hate toward where a greater number of Blacks live... I
> find the same in Germany. IMHO. I would not dare point a finger at
> Germany in respect to anti-Semitism... without fully recognizing
> that the same, and perhaps even worse phenomenon in respect to racism
> against Blacks, exists in the U.S.
No, PV, your bigotry against Germans IS NOT excused just because you
offer some (totally insincere, IMO) words of criticism of your own
country. Your anti German and other bigotry that you have demonstrated
in this group stands on its own and is in no way mitigated by your
words about the United States because you acknowledge no personal
guilt in respect of racism in the US. You can't attack an entire
nation, as you have done, and then hide behind others in your own
country whose guilt you claim to have no part of.
A Planet Visitor: still laughing about the holocaust victims; still
trying to exploit their suffering for his stupid "games"; still hiding
behind Patented Gimmick number 133.
A Planet Visitor
Either that... or he's having a psychotic episode.
PV
>
A Planet Visitor
>
>"Just passing by" <unimpre...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:21b1da28.03091...@posting.google.com...
>> A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
>news:<147lmvckb1h3vsgqi...@4ax.com>...
<psychotic episode of JPB clipped>
>========================================================================
>
>All this because he "giggled"?
>
No... all that to try and deny he is an admitted "holocaust revisionist." But
it's always good for my "personal ends" to expose racists and anti-Semites.
And JPB has made the past few months quite enjoyable for me. I would
never express any emotions but total despair and revulsion over the murder
of Jews that took place in Dachau. And I would never express any emotion
but total disgust that anyone would try to deny that those murders of Jews
took place in Dachau. But that is the role that JPB picked for himself... the
role of the denier. The denier of those murders... because he supports a
belief that they did not take place... supports a view that they did not
take place because Dachau.. was a concentration camp... and not a
death-camp.
PV
A Planet Visitor
>A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<fb6smvko1eldteta8...@4ax.com>...
>
Simple question, JPB -- How many murders would need to have been
committed in Dachau... before you would call it a death-camp?
I fully expect that question to be handled with your patented <clipped spam>
>< clipped >
>
>Here are a few extracts from PV's post denying that he is giggling
>about this matter:
>
>> Given your
>> 'expertise' with gogggle (sic), you should be able to locate the post you
>> claimed in short order. Just a link... like above, will be sufficient. Or
>> perhaps the cat ate it?
>
Given that my comment had nothing to do with the holocaust, but rather
with your lies in respect to your claim that "Prior to that, there were no
such rants from PV about racism - " it's rather obvious how desperate
you are... Where IS your EVIDENCE of the Nameless One having
called me a racist prior to Aug 14, 2000, JPB? As I said -- perhaps
the cat... the abolitionist cat that the Nameless One likes to picture is
torturing and killing the retentionist/sparrow -- ate it. But it's just
another question that you will never answer.
>That is how seriously PV is taking this matter. Here is another one:
>
>
>> Don't fret, bullet head...
>
Again... referring to your bullet head. And on the same subject -- Your
LIES in respect to your claim of no "rants" from me calling the Nameless
One a racist. Nothing to do with the holocaust. Although I don't
even consider my words above, any sort of a joke or laughing... just
recognition of your mental failures. I would not be above calling you
what you are, even in those dialogs regarding the holocaust. Since in
those dialogs you are among the most ignorant swine I have ever
encountered in Usenet. A disgusting, wicked, offensive, loathsome,
perverse, vile, evil, shameful, filthy, wretched, brutish, depraved, immoral,
brutal, repulsive, vicious goblin --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/Goblin1.htm
I would call ANY holocaust denier all of those names. An intentional
INSULT... well deserved... without the slightest hint of humor in calling
them those names... Not one tiny hint of humor. Further, there might
even be moments I would laugh at YOU... but NEVER the holocaust.
There are moments that a holocaust denier looks SO pathetic...
SO ignorant... that we cannot hold back a contemptuous laugh.. a
rueful admission that our species is not as moral as we would hope
it might be.. given the counter-example before us. Certainly, I have
felt that contemptuous laugh when reading some of your comments
in almost every subject you've spoken of.
>And another:
>
>> That's psychology 101 stuff, sport. BTW --
>> picked up that book by Plato yet?
>
Again... nothing to do with the holocaust, but rather referring to your almost
unbelievable ignorance of 'developed behavior patterns.' in humans.
>
>And another:
>
>> When I say anything
>> about human behavior it is axiomatic that I am speaking in my
>> professional capacity as an 'aberrant behavior psychiatrist.' (I have
>> a case file 12 inches thick on YOU!!).
>
Again... not the holocaust.
>
>And they were just from the first part of that post.
>
You mean the part that had nothing to do with the holocaust... right?
I thought so... you lying sack of shit.
>And he claims he is not giggling about this matter?
The "matter" is the holocaust. None of your references in the slightest refer
to the holocaust, but rather to your lies in respect to my recognition of
the Nameless One as a racist more than three years ago, and your inability to
recognize the predator/prey instinct of the cat toward the sparrow. It's not
that you don't see it... you just REFUSE to see it. For the simple reason
that you would never criticize your MESSIAH. And in any case... always
remember.... HIS WORDS -- "PV is right." In any dialog that concerns
the Nameless One... when any question arises as to who is 'right,' always
remember HIS admission -- "PV is right."
> Just look at the
>above extracts - he thinks this whole thing is a big joke and now he
>is not even trying to hide his laughter. Just how blatant are the
>above giggles from PV?
>
What whole thing is a big joke, JPB? Are you now calling the holocaust
a "big joke," as you called it a "game"? Once again, your lies and deceptions
are catching up to you, since I never said that the pathetic behavior of the
Nameless One in so many other aspects is not one HUGE JOKE. Until
YOU came along... he was the biggest joke in Usenet. Claiming there
was a better chance that he would murder than Theodore Frank... BEGGING
the group to _vote_ for him. Accusing everyone who disagreed in a post
to him of having a homoerotic attraction toward him. LAUGHING at
the murder of more than a dozen innocent humans and being called obscene
by Donna for doing so. I will not mention one subject in the hope that
he has understood that a promise is a promise. And so many, many
examples of his pseudo-intellectual drivel. Again... I am being kind by
not mentioning so many other comments he has made. He hasn't been
around for three days... and my father, God rest his hunchbacked Russian
Peasant soul © The Nameless One 2002... always told me to never hit a
man when he's down.
>"Or perhaps the cat ate it?" That shows the mood PV was in when he was
>writing that post.
>
Quite right... since it referred to YOUR pathetic excuse that Desmond's use of
the word "abuse" did not mean what the rest of his words certainly meant...
a cat torturing and killing a sparrow in a rather well-recognized predator/prey
instinct. Why is it necessary that I keep repeating these references when
it is obvious that you never look at them, or recognize that they destroy
every possibility of your argument holding water? I guess that it's just
a masochist streak that I have --
http://www.mammal.org.uk/catkills.htm
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~devo0028/cats.htm
http://www.dnr.state.co.us/cdnr_news/wildlife/1998615123232.html
http://www.things.org/~muffy/pages/kitties/death.html
>
>Remainder of PV's insult to the holocaust victims clipped and unread
>(I didn't have the stomach to read any more of his laughing at the
>holocaust).
What insults would those be, JPB... Since none of the quotes you have
provided even pertain to the holocaust... but instead to the Nameless One's
disgusting suggestion -- ""I engage in 'abuse' of deathies as a matter of course.
That's what they're there for. `echo $DEITY` gave them to us, much as
She gave sparrows to the domestic cat. They're our playthings."
See anything there about the holocaust? No... not at all. See a lot of
lies from you? Of course... what would one of your posts be... without
at least three lies from you in them? What they would be... is
NONEXISTENT.
pvc
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
snip
>>
> Turning to the present dialog,
more like a monologue
> here in AADP... it began with a statement from
> Ol' Racist Nev that COULD NOT go unchallenged by me. That was his
> claim that -- "One is not 'born Jewish' anymore than one is 'born Cathy'
or 'born
> Athiest'!!" See [1] This seemed to me to be a declaration which intended
to
> annihilate even further the Jew.
Well it doesn't seem like that to me and I warrant to many others. Your
view of the Jews is that of H****r's and no one did more to attempt to
exterminate the Jews than he. He was all for distinctions between
human beings, all for what made them different from one another. Racists
thrive on the differences; they can't stand the idea that we are descended
from a common weal. You wish to perpetuate those differences and
innocently you perpetuate racism.
Similar to someone saying one is not 'born
> Black' or 'born Italian.'
One is simply born a human being in a particular place.
It seemed that he was intent on even further eliminating
> the Jew as a 'human being.'
You really do have a blockage in the brain here, PV.
It is you that wants to label humans not Nev. Eliminating
race is not eliminating humanity.
>Taking away the spirit and the soul of the Jew.
Oh me, oh my. Superstition strikes again - spirits and
souls are abroad. .
> Denigrating him in the most unspeakable manner, with a demand that ONLY
> orthodox Judaic religious doctrine could determine Jewish ethnic descent.
> In his view.. a Jew could only be 'concocted' by words on a piece of
> religious dogma.
And he is right. He accepts that person you would label as different
from himself is the SAME as himself. You don't. You regard him
as different from you. It is that attitude that led YOUR forefathers
to commit pograms, it is that attitude that led to YOUR forefathers
to attempt to exterminate the indigenous natives of American.
> That dialog between us, was harsh and bitter. But it grew even worse.
> It grew to the point that Ol' Racist Nev implied that no Jews were
> murdered in Dachau, in a great number of his posts [2].
And in a number of his posts he did. What sort of pleasure do you get
from attempting to mislead others? Why do you constantly mis-
represent the views of those who oppose you? You gain no converts;
the reverse in fact.
> It should
> be recognized that Simon Wiesenthal, has himself accused those who
> offer such excuses for 'concentration camps' rather than 'death camps'
> in the "Altreich," as doing so in the role of Neo-Nazis, attempting to
> discredit the murder of Jews that took place in the "Altreich," and
> thus diminish the true scope of the holocaust [3].
As I have said elsewhere calling Dachau a 'concentration camp' in no way
ameliorates The Third Reich's guilt. It is a part of the same system that
led to the extermination of four to six million humans. It does, however,
separate the Dachaus from the Treblinkas without in any way reducing
their horror. Obviously you don't agree and Wiesenthal, a survivor
of a concentration camp doesn't agree. He would agree that if he had
gone to a 'death camp' he wouldn't have survived.
>
> I know you and I have had our differences, even in respect to the subject
> of the Jews... but your comment struck a meaningful chord... since
> looking at it in retrospect you will see that Ol' Racist Nev was the FIRST
> to introduce Dachau... with the exact purpose you speak of... "using
> Dachau for propagandist purposes," in 'comparing' it to Guantanamo,
> which is certainly an attempt to erase the murders committed in Dachau.
> I did not mention Dachau until HE DID.
He made a ugly stupid comparison with Guantanamo - he was grossly
wrong and as insensitive as ever.
snip
Just passing by
> Simple question, JPB -- How many murders would need to have been
> committed in Dachau... before you would call it a death-camp?
The answer to that question is in this post:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309230147.bc2109%40posting.google.com
> I fully expect that question to be handled with your patented <clipped spam>
Then you were wrong again, weren't you?
> What insults would those be, JPB... Since none of the quotes you have
> provided even pertain to the holocaust...
I agree that those "jokes" you provided were all from the first part
of your post in which you were responding to my comments about the
lies you told about Desmond rather than the holocaust itself. But the
post - indeed the whole discussion - was, primarily, about the
holocaust. I still haven't read the remainder of your post - although
I may do at some point - so I don't know for sure that there are
similarly distasteful and offensive "jokes" about the holocaust in
there. I suspect that there are some such "jokes" and I am almost
certain that there will be examples of your "game" in there (i.e.
deliberate lies designed to cause anger). But even if there are no
"jokes" and no lies, are you saying that you could so easily switch
from telling "jokes" to becoming more serious and respectful in the
space dividing two paragraphs? If your post does indeed appear as if
you have done, then I have no doubt that the seriousness will have
been faked.
< everything else clipped >
A Planet Visitor
>A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<ud3umvoufrm1fc20a...@4ax.com>...
>
JPB demonstrates he is a bigot, as he presumes to call me a bigot.
Not a very bright fellow, is JPB.
>> >
>> I apologize for the ugly turn this dialog has taken.
>
>And where is your apology for accusing Jurgen of anti-Semitism when
>clearly he was never guilty of that?
>
Why would I need to apologize when Jürgen most certainly expressed very
clear evidence of his own anti-Semitism in a previous post? I am of a
forgiving nature. Although I believe both rehabilitation or redemption
are certainly beyond you. There was a thread where he showed a side
of himself that I hope never to see again. That thread was "War." I
found his arguments to be subtly anti-Semitic, in denying the existence of the
State of Israel as a legally founded country. But the most disturbing
comment he made... which suddenly became not so subtle, and which
I believe he would have taken back if he could have... were these
words -- "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner
and declare Israel the 53 US-state?"
Sound a bit 'bigoted' and 'anti-Semitic' to you? Given the implication
that a "star" holds in respect to the Jew in Germany... and given the
volatility of our dialog at that time, which was his insistence that Israel
had no 'legal right' to exist, as the land was 'eternally Palestinian'
to him... presuming I imagine a new diaspora for the Jew. Intending
to strip away every power that rests in U.N. resolutions. I could
come to no other conclusion than it represented an anti-Semitic comment.
Plain and simple. I've 'forgiven' him... and hope we have moved past it.
But I believe... no... I am POSITIVE... that I was fully justified at that time
to characterize his comment as anti-Semitic in nature. He did not have to
add 'six-pointed yellow' to that 'star' for me to grasp his implication. See --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=aljs8t%24vom%2405%241%40news.t-online.com
In any case, I would never apologize for viewing that as an obvious
anti-Semitic remark. I could have well responded with an equally
insensitive remark about the German flag, or any other symbol of
Germany, but instead my 'initial' reaction (if you follow the thread), was
my reply -- "I'm more saddened than angry over such an outburst."
However, the more he 'defended' his meaning the more it became
unpleasant. You need to understand this basic fact, JPB: Jürgen
and I have some very serious issues between us... issues that will never
be resolved... but he is not crazy. You are. That explains the difference
between every comment he has ever posted here... and every
comment you have ever posted here.
>Yes, PV, that was yet another attempt by you to intimidate someone who
>was wiping the floor with you.
If you believe that for an instant... you are verifying that you are
anti-Semitic. Without any further doubt. Jürgen has a heavy emotional
load to carry, not of his making, but simply because he is German.
I have a heavy emotional load to carry, not of my making, but simply
because I am American. If there is a difference between he and I,
it is that I accept that I have this burden. I admit it! And I fully expect
to live my life by it. That's why I found your attacks and insults on the
person, life and works of MLK to be so repulsive. I think you proved
to everyone here that you're a racist, regardless of how anyone might
try to 'white-wash' your evil words. Anyway... you are a racist in my
eyes... and that's all that really matters to me.
But... I have yet to see Jürgen come out and state he accepts that burden,
and admits it. I cannot help but see that he makes sure everyone
KNOWS that he had nothing to do with it...and essentially believes
that ENDS his responsibility to that burden. Of course he had
NOTHING to do with the holocaust PERSONALLY. That's
elementary - using simple arithmetic - in respect to his date of birth,
and the day the holocaust ended in the conclusion of WW II.
It's also elementary - using that same simple arithmetic - that I had
nothing PERSONALLY to do with slavery. Since it ended in 1865
in the U.S. But that is hardly the point. All it takes is a simple
acknowledgement of that burden. Rather than excuses. And
I find any idea of == shhhh... it's the Germans... don't mention the
holocaust... to be disgusting. And that's what I see you trying to
do... and it obviously means you find the holocaust, as you have
ADMITTED you have found it, to be nothing more than a "game."
In YOUR OWN WORDS. A "game" of 'hide-and-seek' TO YOU.
I would find it equally as disgusting for anyone to argue == shhhh... it's
the Americans... don't mention slavery... As I said... we ALL have
our separate burdens to carry.
> You couldn't match him in debate so you
>tried instead to hijack a sensitive issue - anti-Semitism - because
>you thought it would give you an advantage you could never hope to
>gain through fair means - just as you have done so many times, against
>so many different people, with your bogus anti racism.
>
I don't even know what you are raving about. Once again... it's
obvious you are letting your ass overload your mouth. Do you
really think ANYONE here would expect you NOT to express
your typical "anti-PV" view, regardless? There is no poster,
and no argument of that poster, that you would not support if
you recognized that poster, or that argument concerned my
presence here. You've PROVED that... over and over...
with your SLURP... SLURP.... SLURP.. of each and every
poster here. Anyone who throws you even the slightest scrap.
That is why you supported Ol' Racist Nev who most certainly
stated that Dachau was NOT a death camp... stating it was
'only' a concentration camp, with hardly any Jews even being
in Dachau. I have a hunch you're working the 'Jürgen' road,
about now. And it's disgusting. Simply another example
of your anti-Semitism. Because your comments intend to
EXCUSE all Germans, not just Jürgen... who has no reason
to be 'excused' in any personal sense... but ALL GERMANS..
for the holocaust. And those are the methods of an anti-Semite.
You are the who is again proving that you find the holocaust to
be only a "game." In YOUR OWN WORDS.
>And when are you going to apologise to ALL German people for the
>bigotry and hatred you have polluted this group with against a now
>peace loving nation - one which refused to give support to the US &
>UK's monstrous, murderous and totally illegal war against the
>virtually defenceless people of Iraq?
I certainly don't owe the country Germany, or any particular
German, a damn thing. That could not be more clear. I
don't feel that the country Germany, or any particular German,
owes me a damn thing as well. Although if the scales of God
ACTUALLY WERE in operation, I believe that the country
Germany owes MUCH of its existence today, to the country
the U.S. Given that half of it was gobbled up by the Russians
very quickly at the end of WW II, and only the presence of the
U.S., over an extended period of time, kept the Soviet Union
from gobbling up all of it. Until the Soviet Union imploded under
the weight of the corruption of Communism. The country Germany,
nor any particular German, of course, does not owe the U.S.
unconditional support for acts taken that they don't approve of,
in this day and age. Nor do we owe them unconditional support
for any acts they might take that we don't approve of. That's
the meaning of "sovereign nation." Just another flaw in your
intellectual upbringing. Obvious defects among redneck racists,
such as yourself. You and Ol' Racist Nev fit perfectly together... the
U.K. 'good ol' boy' twins.
However -- you seem to be the one trying to spread some particularly
vile bigotry and hate right now. Could that be because Jürgen (perhaps
inadvertently, since I do not know his mind) actually was condemning
Ol' Racist Nev? Since it is ABSOLUTELY certain that Ol' Racist
Nev's purpose in 'using' Dachau, was for "propagandist purposes."
Ol' Racist Nev was the first to USE Dachau in his attempts to
'compare' it with Guantanamo. If he had not 'used' Dachau in
such a diabolic attempt at anti-American "propaganda," the issue
would never have even been raised... nor would Dachau have even
been mentioned. He could well have condemned Guantanamo
WITHOUT COMPARING it to the holocaust, which obviously
intends to ERASE the true scope of the holocaust. Just as if you
had not called the holocaust a "game," and comments which
DEMAND recognition of the murders committed in Dachau as
"giggling," those characterizations would not exist here. It seems
as if YOU are trying to spread that vile bigotry and hate. Using
words such as that to describe the holocaust, and the murders
committed in Dachau, which obviously tend to not take the holocaust
that seriously.
>You are an intolerant bigot, PV, and the disgraceful words you have
>written about Germans - not to mention other Europeans and Arabs - in
>this forum make you the very last person who should be preaching about
>racism or anti-Semitism.
>
I believe you are referring to The Nameless One... since you will find
no bigoted remarks from me. If you recall he admitted he was a bigot.
Ask me for the TRUE QUOTE. However, I have never insulted
MLK, as you have done OVER and OVER. And I have never expressed
anti-Semitism. If fact, I've been accused of quite the opposite, a very
pro-Jewish stance in the Middle-East, which is also a lie. I spent over
26 years in Europe... much of it in Germany, and have a great affection
for the Germans... which gives me the right to criticize them... just as
they have the right to criticize the U.S. Can you possibly see how illogical
your accusations are? As are all your accusations. You claim I am both
anti-Arab and anti-Jew. What an illogical moron you are!!! Really and
truly. I am NEITHER anti-Arab or anti-Jew. I am pro-Innocent human
life. And I am anti-racist, anti-Murderer, and anti-those who would deny
the holocaust. In the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, my view is that both sides
are impossibly immovable. I condemn the Israelis for much of the
overreactions taken by their military, such as Jenin, unequivocally. I
consider, and have called Sharon a monster. I condemn the Palestinians
for every act of terrorism they have committed against innocent Israelis,
unequivocally. I consider, and have called Arafat a monster. Both
people suffer terribly because of a intransigent leadership that has no
ability, or desire, to 'negotiate' in a real sense. At the moment I blame
the Palestinian Hamas more... for breaking that infernal 'road map to
peace,' which didn't have much of a chance anyway... but why should
innocents be murdered? Tomorrow I may blame the Jews more.
There are no 'sides to take' or 'winners' in the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict, and I've expressed my views on that conflict over and over.
To be frank, I have already explained much more than you deserve.
Because you are evil, a proven racist and an anti-Semite...thus there
is absolutely no chance that you have any geopolitical understanding.
You probably have never been outside of your backwoods village of
Ithon on the Wye. I've come to realize that you are much more evil
than I ever believed possible. My original conclusion that you were
obsessive, never led me to realize just HOW obsessive you are. It's
now become delusion obsessive. You no longer are able to separate
fantasy for reality.. plain and simple. And I'm glad I'm not on the same
continent that you are. And often consider you not even part of my
species. Certainly some of your disgusting views in respect to our
species, make me wonder if you are! You're a hateful, spiteful,
anger loaded, racist, murderer loving, holocaust denial fruitcake.
Trust me on this one, JPB. Medication is probably your best bet.
>
>> Germany is still subconsciously determined to become
>> "Judenrein," in my opinion. The only city in Germany that has seen an
>> increase in Jewish population in some time... is Berlin, in some of the
>> quarters in that city. And to me, ominously, that is also the city that has
>> experienced a rise in Neo-Nazi activities. Just as the racist in America,
>> gravitates his hate toward where a greater number of Blacks live... I
>> find the same in Germany. IMHO. I would not dare point a finger at
>> Germany in respect to anti-Semitism... without fully recognizing
>> that the same, and perhaps even worse phenomenon in respect to racism
>> against Blacks, exists in the U.S.
>
>No, PV, your bigotry against Germans IS NOT excused just because you
>offer some (totally insincere, IMO)
Now tell me who CARES what your 'opinion' is? Ooops... that would
be dirtbag, I presume.
> words of criticism of your own
>country. Your anti German and other bigotry that you have demonstrated
>in this group stands on its own and is in no way mitigated by your
>words about the United States because you acknowledge no personal
>guilt in respect of racism in the US.
Oh.. you have no idea. I acknowledge a great deal of guilt in respect
to racism in the U.S. I have done so over and over. Everyone who
reads even a small sampling of my posts knows that, thus you foolishly
expect your 'lies to fly.' They don't do much flying lately, JPB. Do you
acknowledge YOUR HATE for MLK. Do you acknowledge your
anti-Semitism in defending the holocaust denial comments of Ol' Racist
Nev - that there were no murders in Dachau? You should you know.
In fact, it would seem you are denying those murders right here and
now... presuming that I'm the bigot... as you spill out your bigoted guts
in front of every member of AADP. Remember... your imaginary
'credibility' is being flushed right down the toilet about now.
> You can't attack an entire
>nation, as you have done, and then hide behind others in your own
>country whose guilt you claim to have no part of.
>
In your dreams, sport. Criticism of a nation is a national pastime
in Europe... and it all is directed toward the U.S. Do you have
any idea how many 'attacks' are made on the U.S.from posters
to this group alone? Do you have any ideas what a delusional
fruitcake hypocrite you are? Look at YOUR OWN comment, just
a few lines above. And recognize YOUR attack on TWO entire
nations -- Your words -
"The US & UK's monstrous, murderous and totally illegal war
against the virtually defenceless people of Iraq?"
So WHO IS THE BIGOT???
Is it possible for one brief fleeting moment for you to see that
YOU are the bigot? Using YOUR exact description of a bigot..
you then go on to EXHIBIT that behavior. When I say that
Germany has a rising Neo-Nazi influence, that is most certainly
PROVEN by various media reporting, and the German government
admitting it Herself. Lest you believe that the Neo-Nazi
movement in Germany is not strong, is not strongly opposed
by other Germans, and is not recognized in the German media
that it exists (unlike you, thinking you can hide your head
from reality in your denial of the murders in Dachau), see -
http://de.indymedia.org/2003/03/43187.shtml
http://de.indymedia.org/2003/04/49827.shtml
http://germany.indymedia.org/2003/06/55613.shtml
Have Jürgen translate for you
And for some late English language comments on the Neo-Nazi
rise in Germany --
http://news.findlaw.com/international/s/20030915/germanyneonazisdc.html
http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/cg/Qgermany-poland-extremism.RTq0_DlP.html
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/981720/posts
Obviously these are just a minute example of what I mean.
When we hide our eyes to it.. is when it becomes more dangerous.
That is why I spend so much time picking your ass apart.
Because if you had half a brain, you'd be positively dangerous.
>A Planet Visitor: still laughing about the holocaust victims; still
>trying to exploit their suffering for his stupid "games"; still hiding
>behind Patented Gimmick number 133.
>
>http://www.chez.com/desmondcoughlan/dp/gimmicks/133.html
While JPB, thinks he can hide his racist, anti-Semitic, murderer
lover, holocaust denial, rear end -- behind his now exposed bigotry
as well. Thank you, JPB. You've added a new dimension to
your evil. Something I did not believe possible -- You run the
full course of --
Murderer lover
Slavery lover
Saddam lover
Satan lover
Racist lover
Racist
Anti-Semite
Holocaust revisionist
Neo-Nazi
and now---
Bigot
I don't know what other mountains of evil there are for you to climb,
JPB. But there is no doubt you continue to surprise me. So perhaps
you will find one that I haven't recognized.
This is getting quite good... I feel the vibes from my "personal ends"
which are to expose murderer lovers, racists, holocaust deniers,
Saddam followers, Satan lovers... and now... drum roll... exposing
a bigot. A good day's work, PV... a good day's work.
PV
A Planet Visitor
>
>"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
>news:ud3umvoufrm1fc20a...@4ax.com...
>
>snip
>>>
>> Turning to the present dialog,
>
>more like a monologue
>
What are YOU raving about? What did you expect me to post -- "Nice
comment, Jürgen"? You can be very biased at times, Mr. Rennie... And
I suspect I am about to witness one of those times.
>> here in AADP... it began with a statement from
>> Ol' Racist Nev that COULD NOT go unchallenged by me. That was his
>> claim that -- "One is not 'born Jewish' anymore than one is 'born Cathy'
>or 'born
>> Athiest'!!" See [1] This seemed to me to be a declaration which intended
>to
>> annihilate even further the Jew.
>
>Well it doesn't seem like that to me and I warrant to many others.
When ANYONE tries to argue that there IS NO SUCH HUMAN as
a "born Jew," I find that to be more incredibly offensive than you can
imagine. It is as offensive to me, as saying that those who believe they
were 'born Jewish,' are 'not humans.' You need to understand that
Ol' Racist Nev was NOT saying --
=> No one has to accept being 'born Jewish' if they do not feel
they were. <=
Which is quite certainly a TRUE statement --
But can you possibly see that he WAS saying --
=> Even if a human recognizes he was 'born Jewish' he cannot do
so -- since no such human exists <=
In the first case, there is a 'right.' In the second case, there is a DENIAL
of that 'right.'
Sometimes I wonder about Liberals... really -- They take away 'rights'
that should be freely understood. And they provide 'rights' which seem
to have no rhyme or reason behind them, and appear to be
self-destructive to our species to me.
> Your
>view of the Jews is that of H****r's and no one did more to attempt to
>exterminate the Jews than he.
That, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with it. And it
represents a gross canard, implied in your words. How can
ANYONE even express the ugly thought that someone who believe
that a Jew can be 'born Jewish,' MUST ALSO support extermination
of those Jews? Why would I demand the 'born Jew' be given EXISTENCE
only to then support his extermination? The idea that because I
believe that a Jew CAN (NOT MUST) most certainly be 'born Jewish,'
also means that I support Hitler because Hitler intended to exterminate
those who were 'born Jewish,' is one of the absurdly illogical, and
offensive arguments imaginable.
In addition -- IT is anti-Semitic in nature. Hitler was intent on
murdering EXACTLY those that I provide EXISTENCE to in
my argument. An EXISTENCE which is denied them in words
that argue humans CANNOT be 'born Jews.' If there are no 'born
Jews,' and Hitler murdered those he thought were 'born Jews,'
then the argument that there are 'no born Jews,' implies that Hitler
murdered those humans that did not EXIST. Suddenly... there
'were no murders of Jews,' in the minds of those who would
argue that one cannot be 'born Jewish.' Their MURDERS no
longer mean anything!!! Hitler is no longer seen as 'evil,' but
simply 'stupid,' because he attempted to exterminate humans that
actually had no"REAL EXISTENCE" in the first place, if one
accepts the dogma expressed by Ol' Racist Nev.
Extermination of the Jews is more 'easily' accomplished by
presuming there are no 'born Jews,' as Ol' Racist Nev meant
to do. I can imagine his evil thought was that such thinking
essentially 'eliminates the problem.' Suddenly there are no
'REAL JEWS.' They're all just 'imaginary Jews' who have
decided to follow some particular, as you say, superstitious,
religious dogma... and they have no REAL sense of existence
as 'born Jews.' The fact that you could not see through that
transparent anti-Semitism, and even bought into it in such
agreement, is still a source of amazement to me, even today.
I have made the point... quite effectively as far as I'm concerned...
that Hitler tried to exterminate the bodies of those 'born Jewish.'
To deny that they had such an existence... is the first step to
excusing what was done. It strips away a little part of their
existence. Those who would state that NO ONE can be 'born
Jewish,' are intent on destroying the soul, the spirit, and the
rich heritage that rests within the ethnic roots of the Jew.
Every bit as much as the soul, the spirit, and the rich heritage
that rests within the ethnic roots of the Arab. Strange that
no one seems to disagree with the latter, which has no
religious connection, but European heads begin to bob up
and down at the thought of providing the same idea to the
Jew. And insist that the Jew is 'only a religion,' not a people.
I state most emphatically, that if someone is born with clear
ethnic Hebrew roots, he can claims he is a 'born Jew,' without
any demand that he also follow the orthodox beliefs of some
man-made religious order. It is insulting to me if someone
presume he cannot do so -- if they assert that most arrogant
of demands on them that -- "One is not 'born Jewish'..." As
the arrogant anti-Semite Ol' Racist Nev demanded of them.
> He was all for distinctions between
>human beings, all for what made them different from one another. Racists
>thrive on the differences; they can't stand the idea that we are descended
>from a common weal. You wish to perpetuate those differences and
>innocently you perpetuate racism.
>
Of course I wish to perpetuate that difference. IF that person wishes
to perpetuate that difference. There is a vast difference between
the word MUST and the word WISHES. Ol' Racist Nev implied
CANNOT... I categorically deny that... with the word CAN. And
that is not racism at all. Racism is HATING those of such differences.
Regardless. Racism is stating --- You cannot BE what I assert you
cannot be -- There is no racism in stating -- You can BE what you
want to be, if you have the ethnic roots that permit you to do so --
Hitler murdered JEWS. Because he hated them. That's racism.
Murderous racism. Taking that away from the Jews... is
stripping the last sense of dignity they had in their murder. They
were murdered BECAUSE they were Jews... and that distinction is
critically important... in the sense of their existence. Take that away
from them... and they never had an existence. And Ol' Racist
Nev argues that they never did.
> Similar to someone saying one is not 'born
>> Black' or 'born Italian.'
>
>One is simply born a human being in a particular place.
Don't be silly... if one wishes to claim he is an Italian, because
of his Italian descent... would you dogmatically and arrogantly
demand that => One is not 'born Italian' anymore than one is
'born Cathy' or 'born Athiest'!!"?? Can you possibly see that
THIS is some form of racism? The DENIAL. And what
is often, as I detected in Ol' Racist Nev, the HATE, for those
who have such a descent, regardless of whether they wish to
claim it or not.
>
>> It seemed that he was intent on even further eliminating
>> the Jew as a 'human being.'
>
>You really do have a blockage in the brain here, PV.
>It is you that wants to label humans not Nev. Eliminating
>race is not eliminating humanity.
>
If you don't see a statement that states emphatically that there is
'no such human as a born Jew' being the elimination of the Jew as
a human of Jewish descent, I don't know how to further explain
it to you. He has erased the possibility of such a birth. One can
now ONLY be a Jew, if they follow some particular religious
dogma. It would seem if you agree with his argument (sic), then
Desmond is not a Jew, yet he certainly claims to be. I think
the problem is that you still feel the anti-Semitism that is behind
being 'born Jewish,' and thus wish to pretend the idea doesn't
exist. Obviously, there is no demand that someone having Jewish
ethnic roots MUST be identified as a Jew. Just as there is no
demand that someone having Arab ethnic roots MUST be identified
as an Arab. I think you are still fixated on the idea that being
"born Jewish" means a tattoo on the forearm of such a person
whether they WANT IT OR NOT. But THAT'S Nazi thinking.
The idea that there is 'something wrong' with claiming to be
'born Jewish,' having the Hebrew ethnics roots that establishes
that birth. You equate Jew to Muslim, rather than Jew to Arab
>>Taking away the spirit and the soul of the Jew.
>
>Oh me, oh my. Superstition strikes again - spirits and
>souls are abroad. .
>
Do not trivialize this. You know very well what I mean. The fact is
there was a point in time in Europe when that was all that they had left.
>> Denigrating him in the most unspeakable manner, with a demand that ONLY
>> orthodox Judaic religious doctrine could determine Jewish ethnic descent.
>> In his view.. a Jew could only be 'concocted' by words on a piece of
>> religious dogma.
>
>And he is right.
He's wrong. Plain and simple. And any attempts to DENY that
one may claim, and BE a Jew, because of his Hebrew heritage,
irrespective of the necessity of following some religious dogma
is anti-Semitic -- in tint and tone.
> He accepts that person you would label as different
>from himself is the SAME as himself.
Not for an instant. GIven that the ONLY humans he accepts
as Jews are those who follow a particular religion. A religion
he does not follow. He finds the Jew quite different. They
MUST follow that orthodox religious superstition to BE a
Jew to him. Certainly, he is the one that demands they be
'recognized as different.' I make no demands whatsoever
on them.. simply providing them the RIGHT to claim they
are born Jews if they wish to do so, having Hebrew descent,
irrespective of any dogmatic acceptance of Judaism. In fact, you
rather placed your finger on it. He is the one who would
contend that 'the Jews are only followers of a Pagan and
superstitious religious dogma,' since they are the ONLY humans
that can possibly BE JEWS to him..
> You don't. You regard him as different from you.
That's Nazi thinking. I find them to be humans, just as I am.
The fact that they claim Jewish birth, does not change that.
Any more than one claiming Arab birth would be found
different from me. We all spring from the same species in
the taxon group of homo sapiens, but we certainly can claim
a distinct ethnic origin if we wish to do so. I don't see Ol'
Racist Nev denying that for ANY distinct ethnic origin OTHER
than the Jew. So that sound anti-Semitic to me. You were born
English... I certainly don't think you are different from me.
But you WERE born English, while I was not. If you wish
to claim you are English... I don't regard you as 'different'
from me, for doing so. The problem with you and Ol' Racist
Nev is you STILL hold this view that their is something to be
ASHAMED of if claiming Jewish descent. So you simply
deny that anyone can do so. And that effectively washes
your hands of it. Now you think smugly ==> I'm not an
anti-Semite <== but think again.
> It is that attitude that led YOUR forefathers
>to commit pograms, it is that attitude that led to YOUR forefathers
>to attempt to exterminate the indigenous natives of American.
>
Ummm... the holocaust was a European phenomenon. And the
Jew, through his birth, has been persecuted in Europe for more
than a THOUSAND YEARS. And much of it still remains.
The Jew was being persecuted in Europe before a single
European set foot on this continent. And there have been
numerous attempt to exterminate him. And those forefathers
of mine that attempted to exterminate the indigenous natives
of America, are your forefathers as well.
>> That dialog between us, was harsh and bitter. But it grew even worse.
>> It grew to the point that Ol' Racist Nev implied that no Jews were
>> murdered in Dachau, in a great number of his posts [2].
>
>And in a number of his posts he did.
Not really.. He made it a point to ALWAYS diminish the Jewish
population of prisoners and the murder of Jews in Dachau. See --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305290530.16495221%40posting.google.com
His words -- "I must stress that Dachau, Belson, and Buchanwald were
_not_ used as death-camps for Jews."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=f85d58f0.0306181313.5b5a3966%40posting.google.com
His words -- "Dachau played a very minor role, relatively speaking, in the Jewish
holocaust."
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305271322.6bef6222%40posting.google.com
His words -- "Dachau, Belson, Buchanwald were concentration camps,
all of which held 'career-criminals', political-prisoners and the 'work-shy'
to begin with, later on also _POWs_ and (at the very end) evacuated
Jews from the forced-labour camps and death-camps in the east."
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0306020717.5606f088%40posting.google.com
His words -- "Cos I say Dachau wasn't a death-camp?"
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305311727.3f19e145%40posting.google.com
His words -- "he's inisinuated that I am a holocaust denier for suggesting
that Jews were mainly killed in death camps,"
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0305300601.31e990fc%40posting.google.com
His words -- "That'll be the Holocaust deniers who go out of their way to
make a distinction between concentration-camps (such as Dachau and Belson)
and death-camps such (as Treblinka, Sorbibor, etc.)."
The last one being rather ironic.. Since that has been the thrust of all
his posts concerning Dachau. Making certain he emphasizes the distinction
between it and the 'extermination camps in Eastern Europe. It would
appear that he brushes himself as holocaust denier in his own definition
of what a holocaust denier is.
And you've always agreed with him as I recall. so I would ask you... How
many murders of Jews would it be necessary to have occurred in Dachau,
before you would call it a death-camp?
Let me give you a small hint -- On Apr 24, 1945, the total number of Jew in
Dachau was 22,938. From the rolls kept and recovered. On Apr 25, 1945,
one day later, and 4 days before Dachau was liberated by U.S. Forces,
the camp count of Jews decreased by 838. In one day! In a final frenzied,
murderous rage, as those guards knew the camp was about to be liberated.
more Jews were murdered in ONE DAY than all the detainees held in
Guantanamo (See The Destruction of the European Jews-Volume III Page
1052). Yet Ol' Racist Nev claimed over and over that Dachau was NOT
a death camp...but that Guantanamo "may soon become a death-camp..."
There is no doubt that he considers Dachau to be a far better place to
have been.. than Guantanamo today.
I was insulted as a human being to read these grotesque offering of excuses
for Dachau... over and over, trying to erase those murders in Ol' Racist Nev's
dual purpose of both diminishing the holocaust by contending those murderous
acts ONLY took place in 'human extermination machines,' in Eastern
Europe, and none of them happened in Dachau... because... in his words --
"Dachau wasn't a death-camp."
> What sort of pleasure do you get
>from attempting to mislead others? Why do you constantly mis-
>represent the views of those who oppose you? You gain no converts;
>the reverse in fact.
>
The misleading is all coming from Europe... and every thinking person...
should ask themselves -- WHY? Nor am I looking for converts. I
leave that to those Europeans who believe their arguments are bolstered
by finding agreement with other idiots. Depending on majorities is the
argument of fools, and only the weak presume that their arguments are
axiomatically strengthened because they gain converts. Majorities and
polls are only used to presume what MIGHT happen as a result of
changes demanded by those majorities. It can NEVER presume that
it also means what SHOULD happen. If you don't know by now
that I am not here to convert or convince or change anyone's MIND,
then you don't know me. I am here to express my opinion, and I would
insist that NO ONE SHOULD accept my view and change THEIR
opinion without first examining everything from every source and making
up their own minds. Of course I am stubborn and opinionated, that's
been obvious. But the ones looking for converts are quite different.
They use cajoling techniques. They go out begging. The hapless bastards.
>> It should
>> be recognized that Simon Wiesenthal, has himself accused those who
>> offer such excuses for 'concentration camps' rather than 'death camps'
>> in the "Altreich," as doing so in the role of Neo-Nazis, attempting to
>> discredit the murder of Jews that took place in the "Altreich," and
>> thus diminish the true scope of the holocaust [3].
>
>As I have said elsewhere calling Dachau a 'concentration camp' in no way
>ameliorates The Third Reich's guilt.
But it DOES. Especially when coupled with the words that those
concentration camps "played a very minor role..." in the holocaust.
It's the method of the shill. ==> direct your attention to the 'big picture'
folks -- while some other bastard picks your pocket -- Once we
argue that the concentration camps were 'not as bad at the "human
extermination machines" in Eastern Europe... we are essentially
SAYING - the concentrations camp were not that bad... FULL STOP.
> It is a part of the same system that
>led to the extermination of four to six million humans.
Of course it was... and that is the reason that what happened there cannot
be excused, using the argument of it was better than -- 'compared to the
death camps.' There is nothing about the holocaust that can be made to
appear less horrendous than it was... even comparisons of one aspect with
another... since doing so only appears to reduce the monstrous acts
committed by those being compared with the purpose of making them
LESS than the other aspect. Simon Wiesenthal recognized that as the
methods used by Neo-Nazis... when he wrote a letter to Nizkor and
said -- ""Because there were no extermination camps on German soil
the Neo-Nazis are using this as proof that these crimes did not happen [...]"
> It does, however,
>separate the Dachaus from the Treblinkas without in any way reducing
>their horror.
I see it as a direct intention to reduce the horror of Dachau. As I said...
for two very distinct purposes used by Ol' Racist Nev. You make these
dogmatic statements as if everyone is supposed to bow down before them.
But in my mind -- when someone implies that == Well... Dachau was
not a death camp == that is simply an attempt to erase the horror of
Dachau.. by offering a fact that things were so much worse elsewhere.
As I said, and I'll ask you... what suddenly makes a concentration camp
a death camp? How many murders does it take... before you say --
Yes... now I see... it is a death camp --- How many? Since I believe
tens of thousands of murders makes a concentration camp a death camp,
and the "human extermination machines" in Eastern Europe cannot TAKE
AWAY that fact. It's as if a murderer would argue his innocence, by
pointing out someone who has murdered 30 humans.. contending that he
'wasn't as bad as that other murderer.' He may not be... but he's STILL
a murderer.
> Obviously you don't agree and Wiesenthal, a survivor
>of a concentration camp doesn't agree. He would agree that if he had
>gone to a 'death camp' he wouldn't have survived.
>
What I've found from readings of Wiesenthal is that he doesn't appreciate
those who would try to use the fact that no "human extermination machines"
existed in the "Altreich," by calling them 'simply' concentration camps. He
finds statements such as that, especially posed in the fashion that Ol'
Racist Nev posed them, intended to erase the horrors that actually
occurred in those concentration camps, and at the same moment reduce
the true scope and vast sweep of the holocaust.
>>
>> I know you and I have had our differences, even in respect to the subject
>> of the Jews... but your comment struck a meaningful chord... since
>> looking at it in retrospect you will see that Ol' Racist Nev was the FIRST
>> to introduce Dachau... with the exact purpose you speak of... "using
>> Dachau for propagandist purposes," in 'comparing' it to Guantanamo,
>> which is certainly an attempt to erase the murders committed in Dachau.
>> I did not mention Dachau until HE DID.
>
>He made a ugly stupid comparison with Guantanamo - he was grossly
>wrong and as insensitive as ever.
>
You might have gotten away with excusing racial slurs with that disgusting
attempt to excuse them by calling them simply "insensitive," but you CANNOT
do so with the holocaust. There is no such thing as an "insensitive" comment
in respect to the holocaust. It is IMPOSSIBLE to provide an "insensitive"
remark in respect to the holocaust without it AUTOMATICALLY and
FUNDAMENTALLY being immediately raised to a much higher level
of offensive insult to the dead of the holocaust. There is a fundamental
demand that 'insensitivity' not exist in that subject. You may find night club
comedians who use 'insensitivity' when providing racial slurs, but I do
not think you will find any that do so in respect to the holocaust. Since
you have admitted that Ol' Racist Nev's comments were "insensitive"
you have axiomatically raised those comments to the level of a Neo-Nazi,
and a holocaust denier. Thank you... And at the same moment you have
also characterized JPB as a Neo-Nazi and a holocaust denier... since he
has called the holocaust a "game" and called my remarks only "giggles,"
when I demand that the murders committed in Dachau not be erased
using that 'easy excuse' of it only being a concentration camp. See his
posts where he uses those disgusting terms before I ever imagined that
anyone could be so evil as to pose them, or imply that they might be
used -- in
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309210104.41eda30%40posting.google.com
and
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
PV
>snip
>
>
>
Just passing by
> But the most disturbing
> comment he made... which suddenly became not so subtle, and which
> I believe he would have taken back if he could have... were these
> words -- "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner
> and declare Israel the 53 US-state?"
>
> Sound a bit 'bigoted' and 'anti-Semitic' to you?
No, not in the slightest. I have heard the very same thing said in
relation to the UK because of its so called "special relationship"
with the US. It is undeniable that the US and Israel do indeed enjoy a
REAL special relationship.
> Given the implication
> that a "star" holds in respect to the Jew in Germany...
How stupid you are! The US flag has stars on it to denote the number
of states; Jurgen's comment OBVIOUSLY referred to that and nothing
else.
> I've 'forgiven' him...
You arrogant buffoon! It is your apology that is required. It is you,
not he, who needs forgiveness.
> In any case, I would never apologize for viewing that as an obvious
> anti-Semitic remark.
Of course you wouldn't because that would be an admission not only
that you were wrong, but also that you were intentionally so, and that
you were using Patented Gimmick number 133
http://www.chez.com/desmondcoughlan/dp/gimmicks/133.html
> >Yes, PV, that was yet another attempt by you to intimidate someone who
> >was wiping the floor with you.
>
> If you believe that for an instant... you are verifying that you are
> anti-Semitic.
And here we see an extension of Patented Gimmick number 133. Not only
is anyone who wipes the floor with you a racist or anti-Semite, but
any onlooker who recognises that is too. How utterly pathetic is that?
You really are the saddest poster I have ever seen on usenet.
> Jürgen has a heavy emotional
> load to carry, not of his making, but simply because he is German.
If by "emotional load" you mean guilt - as I suspect you do - then you
are yet again exposing that you are the worst kind of bigot. Nobody is
responsible for crimes committed by others, particularly if those
crimes were committed before they were even born. If you believe
otherwise you are using your bigotry to attack new born babies and
calling them guilty of war crimes.
> But... I have yet to see Jürgen come out and state he accepts that burden,
> and admits it.
And there you show that you do indeed mean guilt when you say
"emotional load". Your use of the word "admit" is the proof of that.
No Germans, other than those still living whom were directly involved
in war crimes, have anything to admit to in relation to WW2. That is
not to say there should be no shame, but shame and guilt are two very
different things. The people of the US, UK and Australia should
certainly feel shame about what their governments have done in Iraq,
but there is no need for them to feel guilt. I was not born until long
after WW2 ended, yet I still feel shame about the bombing of Dresden,
but I feel no guilt about it.
> I cannot help but see that he makes sure everyone
> KNOWS that he had nothing to do with it...and essentially believes
> that ENDS his responsibility to that burden.
It does. If he had nothing to do with it, he is not responsible for
it. Why should he be held responsible? Why should any German born
after the war ended be held responsible for the crimes of the Nazis?
Only a bigot would say that guilt can be passed from one generation to
another. And such bigots often quote Exodus 20:5 from the Old
Testament to "support" their bigotry. I'm surprised you haven't tried
that one.
> > You couldn't match him in debate so you
> >tried instead to hijack a sensitive issue - anti-Semitism - because
> >you thought it would give you an advantage you could never hope to
> >gain through fair means - just as you have done so many times, against
> >so many different people, with your bogus anti racism.
> >
> I don't even know what you are raving about.
Then I will spell it out in even simpler terms. Jurgen is much smarter
than you and he is much better at articulating his arguments than you
are at articulating yours. When he debates, he does so in a very
reasonable, careful and thoughtful manner. You, on the other hand,
come across as a raging lunatic, screaming and ranting away at
everyone you exchange posts with. You lie about what others have
written, you deliberately twist, distort and misrepresent every
argument you can't tackle with facts, and you usually end up accusing
those you can't match of either racism, anti-Semitism or both, not
because there is ever any evidence supporting those ridiculous
accusations, but purely out of frustration at having been defeated by
people with vastly superior debating skills to your own.
So when you found yourself to be the weaker one in such a mismatch
against Jurgen, you looked for what you thought was a vulnerable
point. Rather like a boxer who sees his opponent's eye bleeding will
aim all his punches at that eye in the hope of causing the fight to be
stopped, you concentrated your attacks on what you (wrongly) thought
was Jurgen's weakness - his nationality. You figured that by accusing
Jurgen, a German, of anti-Semitism, this tactic would give you some
advantage and that it would slow down a debate you were losing badly
by causing him to go on the defensive and distract him from the task
of destroying your argument.
You wanted to make Jurgen feel inhibited about discussing the question
of Israel because of what the Nazis did to the Jews, even though, in
relation to the argument he was putting forward, there was no
connection. But you, recognising your own inferior debating skills,
tried to act rather as a handicapper does before a horse race. You
tried to handicap Jurgen by setting up limits to what he could say.
This didn't work, and you were still being trounced by Jurgen, so you
played that same card this group has seen you play so many times - the
race card. You desperately wanted to end a debate you were losing, so
out came your "you are anti-Semitic" gimmick which you figured would
be more effective against a German than against, say, another American
or a Brit.
So does that clear up what I am "raving about" for you?
< remainder of PV's post clipped for now but I will reply to it later
>
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:58:15 +0100, "John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
>
> >
> >"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
> >news:ud3umvoufrm1fc20a...@4ax.com...
> >
> >snip
> >>>
> >> Turning to the present dialog,
> >
> >more like a monologue
> >
> What are YOU raving about? What did you expect me to post -- "Nice
> comment, Jürgen"? You can be very biased at times, Mr. Rennie... And
> I suspect I am about to witness one of those times.
Big snip
Actually I appreciated your response - I find it a pity that you didn't
appreciate
mine. My views are as valid as yours even though they differ - this is
something
you fail time and time again to understand.
Just passing by
< clipped >
This is separate from my other reply to the same post because I have
only now read through your whole message and found something else that
I think I should comment about.
> The "matter" is the holocaust. None of your references in the slightest refer
> to the holocaust, but rather to your lies in respect to my recognition of
> the Nameless One as a racist more than three years ago, and your inability to
> recognize the predator/prey instinct of the cat toward the sparrow. It's not
> that you don't see it... you just REFUSE to see it. For the simple reason
> that you would never criticize your MESSIAH.
The person you refer to there is Desmond (who is not my messiah) and
for once I think your criticism of me is not entirely invalid. I must
admit that there was one occasion when I believe Desmond went too far
in one of his attacks on you. That was when he wrote mockingly of your
father. Had you written something like that about his father, I would
probably have posted an attack on you for doing that. I criticised you
when you posted offensive comments about Desmond's baby, but I didn't
criticise Desmond for posting offensive comments about your father,
and so I guess I have been guilty of double standards, which I am now
happy to put right by stating that I totally disagree with Desmond for
those comments.
I also totally disagree with the offensive comments I once saw Neville
post about your wife, and again I happily put on record that I would
never associate myself with such comments.
However much I agree with the attacks Desmond and Neville have made on
you (and I certainly do) I think they should avoid extending those
attacks to members of your family. However loathsome you are and
however many lies you tell, I will never use this newsgroup to attack
members of your family whom I know absolutely nothing about.
A Planet Visitor
>A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<knq1nv4kffhumtm0c...@4ax.com>...
>
>
>> But the most disturbing
>> comment he made... which suddenly became not so subtle, and which
>> I believe he would have taken back if he could have... were these
>> words -- "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner
>> and declare Israel the 53 US-state?"
>>
>> Sound a bit 'bigoted' and 'anti-Semitic' to you?
>
>No, not in the slightest.
Well, well, well. Another demonstration of your holocaust denial. You
now argue that a "star" has no significance in respect to the holocaust!!!
What exactly DOES have any significance to you in respect to the
holocaust? Oh... I remember now.. you think it's all a "game." [1]
You argue that the use of a "Star" used by a German, in attacking the
presumed national character of another nation. in a dialog regarding
Jewish existence in Israel... has no anti-Semitic meaning to you!!!
However, there is absolutely no doubt, in spite of your holocaust
denial, that a "star" has GREAT anti-Semitic significance to the
holocaust, and your holocaust denials cannot ERASE that significance.
It had A SIGNIFICANCE of such overwhelming importance to
both those forced to wear it, and those who forced them to wear it,
that a failure to do so, meant summary execution. Those forced
to wear it were not considered HUMAN... but SUB-HUMANS.
But you argue that it 'has no significance' to a German. You just
keep proving over and over, your DENIAL of the holocaust...
stating that a "star," which the Germans DEMANDED all Jews
wear during the holocaust has... not the slightest meaning to you.
To enlighten you... as to your attempts to dismiss the significance
of the "star" in your role as a holocaust denier... See -
http://www.holocaustcenter.org/Holocaust/img/juif2.gif
and see --
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/GALLFR2/GHETTO1.htm
"Each Jew carried his own ghetto with him like a snail his shell"
The examples I COULD provide are endless... but represent such
a black stain on our very existence that doing so, could not
increase in the slightest, the significance that the "star" has to the
holocaust. And to a German. Only a holocaust revisionist would
deny that proven significance. Thus... you are AGAIN... for
about the tenth time... an ADMITTED holocaust revisionist.
Of course, given that you see the holocaust as being a "game," [1]
I can understand how that significance might elude you.
Since anyone who would call the holocaust a "game," is by
definition a holocaust denier... and you did just that... in two
separate posts, in your own words.
The holocaust denier role you now play, can NEVER be accepted.
Even as "inept" as I am, in denouncing you as a holocaust denier, it
is impossible for you to succeed, even with Satan by your side.
The PHYSICAL EVIDENCE is just too overwhelming for your
lies that a "star" used by a German in an argument regarding the
legal Jewish existence in the State of Israel, has NO SIGNIFICANCE,
in respect to anti-Semitism. It is just too overwhelming a LIE, for
ANY reasoning person to accept that idea.
> I have heard the very same thing said in
>relation to the UK because of its so called "special relationship"
>with the US. It is undeniable that the US and Israel do indeed enjoy a
>REAL special relationship.
It's also undeniable that Germany and the Jews do indeed have a
very 'unenjoyable' REAL 'special relationship.' Rational people have
characterized that 'special relationship' as being the holocaust.
The idea that a German would express that 'special relationship'
in the use of a 'star' placed on the flag of another nation is more
repugnant to me than you can imagine. However, given that you
are an admitted holocaust denier.... I can see your failure to recognize
the significance of doing so. You see it as simply a 'benign badge.'
But it actually was a 'badge' that SIX MILLION HUMANS were
forced to wear before being exterminated. I cannot imagine a more
evil 'defense' of the holocaust. A denial of any significance of the
"star." You evil, evil, evil man.
And the entire meaning of your comment is a direct anti-Semitic
comment... implying that Israel should be left to be pushed into the
sea, and all Jews destroyed, because the U.S. is preventing that
from happening! What a bigoted-anti-Semite you really are
as well!
Little wonder why I have continually broached the question as to
WHY you hate the Jews so much... and WHY you have never
answered that question, as you now admit to that hate.
These are the arguments you conclude are the only arguments that
have merit... because the U.S. is actively opposing these forms of
argument --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/AntiSemitism.htm
http://www.aish.com/Israel/articles/Incitement_to_Kill_all_the_Jews.asp
A small except of the comments you agree with, are contained
within the first URL and this "sermon" in the second, from the
former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza --
Quoting -- ""Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they
are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever
you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews
and those Americans who are like them..." This is YOUR
mandate as well. Given your bigoted, clearly anti-Semitic words.
>> Given the implication
>> that a "star" holds in respect to the Jew in Germany...
>
>How stupid you are! The US flag has stars on it to denote the number
>of states; Jurgen's comment OBVIOUSLY referred to that and nothing
>else.
>
The U.S. flag uses Stars to represent the number of states within that
Union of States. The Germans used a "star" for quite a different purpose.
But of course... in your now admitted holocaust denier role.... the use of a
symbol of a "star" by a German in a heated argument regarding the role
the Jew plays in Israel, and its continued "legal existence" (which Jürgen
argued had NO legal existence), has 'no significance to you.' You find
that it doesn't... given that you deny the "star" has ANY significance to the
holocaust whatsoever... as the holocaust denier you admit to being.
>> I've 'forgiven' him...
>
>You arrogant buffoon! It is your apology that is required. It is you,
>not he, who needs forgiveness.
>
Given that you are an admitted holocaust denier... over and over...
it was to be expected that you would expect me to apologize for
another's anti-Semitic rant. I would suppose you would expect
me to apologize to you, for YOU being an anti-Semite, a holocaust
denier, and a Neo-Nazi. Thanks... but no, thanks. I believe I'll
pass on apologizing for exposing you for the evil that you are.
Given that such exposure is simply my "personal ends."
>> In any case, I would never apologize for viewing that as an obvious
>> anti-Semitic remark.
>
>Of course you wouldn't because that would be an admission not only
>that you were wrong, but also that you were intentionally so, and that
>you were using Patented Gimmick number 133
>
>http://www.chez.com/desmondcoughlan/dp/gimmicks/133.html
>
See --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/desi-JPB-love-affair.htm
Your pathetic posting will not detract one iota from your now
PROVEN anti-Semitism... and PROVEN holocaust denial,.
given that you assert the "star" has no significance in respect
to the holocaust. Anyone who expect that someone should
apologize for the anti-Semitic comment of another, is obviously
himself an anti-Semite. That's you.
>> >Yes, PV, that was yet another attempt by you to intimidate someone who
>> >was wiping the floor with you.
>>
>> If you believe that for an instant... you are verifying that you are
>> anti-Semitic.
>
>And here we see an extension of Patented Gimmick number 133. Not only
>is anyone who wipes the floor with you a racist or anti-Semite, but
>any onlooker who recognises that is too. How utterly pathetic is that?
>You really are the saddest poster I have ever seen on usenet.
>
You've simply confirmed that you are a holocaust denier...
Before - in a number of instances - such as your defense of
Ol' Racist Nev, who argued that no Jews were murdered
in Dachau... because it wasn't a death camp, and in [1].
While now...even more conclusively in your comments here.
No reason to become angry about it. Since it is PROOF
that matters... not your hysterical ravings.
>> Jürgen has a heavy emotional
>> load to carry, not of his making, but simply because he is German.
>
>If by "emotional load" you mean guilt - as I suspect you do - then you
>are yet again exposing that you are the worst kind of bigot. Nobody is
>responsible for crimes committed by others, particularly if those
>crimes were committed before they were even born. If you believe
>otherwise you are using your bigotry to attack new born babies and
>calling them guilty of war crimes.
>
They have, and I have, a HIGHER RESPONSIBILITY to
the past. In the sense of the murder of six million Jews, and
the enslavement of millions of slaves. To deny that... is to
deny that past totally. Which, of course, is the role the
holocaust denier plays in respect to the holocaust, and the
racist plays in respect to racism. Thus, it is rather obvious
that you would argue NO ONE is responsible for the past,
since you presume it NEVER EXISTED. But in that denial...
you have proved that you are BOTH a racist, and a
holocaust denier. Do you have the slightest idea how
often Europeans... British... have asserted that American
posters here are responsible for slavery. In fact, John Rennie,
in a post TODAY tried to place the burden of my forefathers
on me in respect to atrocities committed against "indigenous
natives of America." Of course.. all of my forefathers
came here in the late 19th Century, and none ventured
West of the Mississippi. Yet I do not deny that it places
a burden on me. But.... shhh...it's the Germans... don't
mention the holocaust....
>> But... I have yet to see Jürgen come out and state he accepts that burden,
>> and admits it.
>
>And there you show that you do indeed mean guilt when you say
>"emotional load". Your use of the word "admit" is the proof of that.
Where do you see the word "guilt"? Only in your anti-Semitic
imagination. I admit that I have a burden in respect to the
past slavery of Blacks in the U.S. That burden INSISTS that
I condemn racism... unconditionally, and make it my "personal
ends" to condemn racism. Which you have admitted IS my
"personal ends." By the same token, Jürgen needs to admit that
he has a higher burden in respect to the holocaust (or there is
most certainly a denial of that holocaust by any German implicit
in rejecting that idea). That burden INSISTS that he condemn
anti-Semitism... and not express ideas which might be construed
as hate toward the Jews. I've never seen him do that. Plain and
simple. There are a vast number of recognized and respected
sources that understand this concept. Unfortunately racists and
holocaust deniers reject them all... thus I can understand why
you... in your admitted role as both a racist and a holocaust
denier would deny that concept, as well.
>No Germans, other than those still living whom were directly involved
>in war crimes, have anything to admit to in relation to WW2.
Of course they do... they INHERITED that legacy. It will
take a thousand years to erase it. It CANNOT be erased...
with the absolutely disgusting idea of .... shhhh... it's the
Germans...don't mention the holocaust.
> That is
>not to say there should be no shame, but shame and guilt are two very
>different things.
They may be different... but I have seen neither emotion from
Jürgen. While all I've ever seen from you is your holocaust
denial statements, and your defense of other holocaust deniers.
And most certainly your clear anti-Semitic ravings just above,
where you demand that the U.S. permit Israel and the Jews to
be annihilated.
> The people of the US, UK and Australia should
>certainly feel shame about what their governments have done in Iraq,
>but there is no need for them to feel guilt. I was not born until long
>after WW2 ended, yet I still feel shame about the bombing of Dresden,
>but I feel no guilt about it.
>
Shame IS A BURDEN. And I have spoken of that BURDEN.
In fact, I cannot find any reference to asking Jürgen to share
any "guilt," although I admit that I feel that "I" accept a degree of
guilt in respect to racism in the U.S. Since I believe I could
do MORE than simply expose racists such as you. Much
more! You are the one who continues to use the word "guilt."
Perhaps subconsciously realizing the guilt that all racists,
anti-Semites, and holocaust deniers SHOULD feel... which
is simply another emotion you apparently do not possess.
>> I cannot help but see that he makes sure everyone
>> KNOWS that he had nothing to do with it...and essentially believes
>> that ENDS his responsibility to that burden.
>
>It does.
No.. it doesn't. In fact it doesn't end the responsibility of
ANY HUMAN to recognize that past, and accept the burden
of preventing it from happening again. And it is a higher
burden for him in respect to anti-Semitism. Just as it is a
higher burden for me in respect to racism. Of course... once
again... you simply presume it NEVER HAPPENED... in
your admitted role as a holocaust denier. [1]
> If he had nothing to do with it, he is not responsible for
>it.
In a greater sense, we are all responsible for the acts our species
commit. Simply because we are of the same species. Some
more than others. You are responsible for DENYING the
holocaust.. and of course... responsible for your racism and
anti-Semitism. While I am responsible for exposing it... as
part of my "personal ends."
> Why should he be held responsible?
Ummm... because we are all from the same species???
> Why should any German born
>after the war ended be held responsible for the crimes of the Nazis?
Ummm... because his forefathers were part of that past????
>Only a bigot would say that guilt can be passed from one generation to
>another. And such bigots often quote Exodus 20:5 from the Old
>Testament to "support" their bigotry. I'm surprised you haven't tried
>that one.
>
Anti-Semites and racists often quote from the Bible. It's
one of their greatest sources. Even those hypocrites who
presume the New Testament is that source... Given that
the Apostle Paul, in 1 Thessalonians 2:4-16 wrote --
" ... even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed
the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted
us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might
be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come
upon them to the uttermost."
Yeah... that good old Bible.. bring on that 'wrath' for the
Jew. You think Paul was 'predicting' the holocaust? And
that is not the ONLY source of hate for the Jew. You
spew it out right here and now.
>> > You couldn't match him in debate so you
>> >tried instead to hijack a sensitive issue - anti-Semitism - because
>> >you thought it would give you an advantage you could never hope to
>> >gain through fair means - just as you have done so many times, against
>> >so many different people, with your bogus anti racism.
>> >
>> I don't even know what you are raving about.
>
>
>Then I will spell it out in even simpler terms. Jurgen is much smarter
>than you and he is much better at articulating his arguments than you
>are at articulating yours.
What total, biased rubbish. Did ANYONE actually expect
you to dribble out anything different from that? Provide an
example, if you are brave enough. I believe you also said that
Peter Morris had 'bested' me... but I find you very subdued in
picking up that example... while Peter has fled.
> When he debates, he does so in a very
>reasonable, careful and thoughtful manner.
Not at all.. he's a hysterical fruitcake. Who depends totally
upon 'emotional drooling,' such as his demand that "pity"
be extended to MURDERERS, and that MURDERERS
are "brutalized," while presuming that the victims are not.
I cannot remember an instance where he has expressed
feeling for the victims, or even the victims families. Being
more concerned with the murderers and the murderers
families. However, this is about his use of a symbol that
most certainly holds significance to the holocaust, regardless
of your holocaust revisionist denials. It was anti-Semitic
in nature... plain and simple. And you will not disprove that
with your hysterical ravings extolling Jürgen's imaginary
abilities to communication in English, which everyone has
at one time or another... felt pain for him at the sight of his
inability to formulate a coherent sentence. In this particular
argument... I believe his inner feeling are for you to -- just
shut up -- because you just dredge up a past instance of a
gross indiscretion he knows he committed, and he would
just as soon -- let sleeping dogs lie -- But... be my guest.
> You, on the other hand,
>come across as a raging lunatic, screaming and ranting away at
>everyone you exchange posts with. You lie about what others have
>written, you deliberately twist, distort and misrepresent every
>argument you can't tackle with facts, and you usually end up accusing
>those you can't match of either racism, anti-Semitism or both, not
>because there is ever any evidence supporting those ridiculous
>accusations, but purely out of frustration at having been defeated by
>people with vastly superior debating skills to your own.
It seems as if you are displaying the very character you accuse
me of. You have never presented a FACT in your life. If you
care to see some "deliberate twisting, distorting and misrepresentation
of every FACT... see --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/JPB.html
In that URL .. you will find, under Chapter III, 23 examples, just
a minor sampling of the totality of YOUR raging, lunatic, screaming
rants that everyone opposed to your lies, is
"a gang of criminals"
"lied"
"cheated"
"conspired to pervert justice"
" committed Perjury"
"lying cops,"
Were involved in a "deliberate frame-up"
Were all "corrupt prosecutors,"
Were the "architect of the framing"
Were "lies he told"
Were "blatant criminal conspiracies to frame a demonstrably innocent"
Diabolically plotted to insure "she was framed"
Massachusetts is a "totally brainwashed, biased population."
The Trial judge "Zobel certainly knows she didn't do it."
(but still found her guilty)
The "State of Massachusetts is utterly riddled with corruption from
top to bottom."
"four police officers, against whom there is incontrovertible proof
of perjury"
The murder she committed was "Scientifically impossible.."
She was "blatantly framed"
She was a "victim of a frame-up"
Everyone used "deliberate hiding, burial and destruction of exculpatory
medical evidence, and that four police officers committed
proven perjury."
"They all believed she was not guilty of murder"
(Of course they FOUND her "guilty of murder." Thus
I presume you believe THEY, as well, were ALL CROOKS)
"I stated it as a fact that he had no power in this case to do that.
It remains a fact..." (Now acknowledged by you as an ADMITTED
LIE. Having been called a liar by your MESSIAH... who asserted
those three 'magic words' -- "PV is right.")
"buried and destroyed exculpatory medical evidence and arranged
for four corrupt police officers to lie about what the defendant had
said to them."
How's that for YOUR HYSTERICAL RAVING in your
love for the "Great White Whale"? That URL I offer is one
of the most damning indictments of your inability to ever
formulate a rational thought. Every bit of that URL shows
you to be an obsessive, irrational fruitcake. Offering
nothing but raging, lunatic screaming rants. That was what
SET YOU OFF. And I'm glad it happened... since it
exposed you as a murderer-lover, a Saddam-lover, a
racist, an anti-Semite, a holocaust denier, a Neo-Nazi,
and a bigot. What is there left for you to do? What
mountain of evil do you still have to climb? I'm sure
you'll find one.
>So when you found yourself to be the weaker one in such a mismatch
>against Jurgen, you looked for what you thought was a vulnerable
>point.
It wasn't that difficult at all... as it is not that difficult with you.
He exposed himself in that instant as using a symbol of the
holocaust, in an anti-Semitic rage against the U.S. supporting
the existence of the Jews in Israel. Just as you now expose
your rage about the same efforts of the U.S. Thus, you are
a proven anti-Semite. In addition to having admitted in
many of your posts that you are a holocaust denier and a
Neo-Nazi. {1]
> Rather like a boxer who sees his opponent's eye bleeding will
>aim all his punches at that eye in the hope of causing the fight to be
>stopped, you concentrated your attacks on what you (wrongly) thought
>was Jurgen's weakness - his nationality. You figured that by accusing
>Jurgen, a German, of anti-Semitism, this tactic would give you some
>advantage and that it would slow down a debate you were losing badly
>by causing him to go on the defensive and distract him from the task
>of destroying your argument.
>
Rave on. Given that you have demonstrated your own anti-Semitism,
defending the anti-Semitism of another is a given in any of your
comments. You would certainly not attack an anti-Semitic comment,
since it would go against your own principles. Those of being an
anti-Semite yourself. Any reasoning person could see the logic
behind that.
>You wanted to make Jurgen feel inhibited about discussing the question
>of Israel because of what the Nazis did to the Jews, even though, in
>relation to the argument he was putting forward, there was no
>connection.
If you recall my initial reaction was one of embarrassment FOR
HIM. Not the reaction of a hysterical lunatic as your reactions
are here. My words were -- "I'm more saddened than angry
over such an outburst." Does that sound like an 'overreaction'
to you? Silly me... of course it does... since you don't fee that
a "star" has any significance whatsoever in respect to the
holocaust... you being a holocaust denier, and all. It just didn't
have any significance in the holocaust to you. And you still
don't have the slighest idea I would express being 'saddened'
by his comment. Of course, given the fact you admit that you
don't want to see any suggestions you weep for victims [2],
I can see that my comment would be totally bewildering to you.
In fact, as an admitted holocaust denier, who has characterized it
as a "game" to you.. [1]... the holocaust itself, has no significance
to you... and as you said above.. no one should feel guilty about
it. After all... it was to you -- 'only' SIX MILLION MURDERED
All wearing that 'star' which you claim has 'no significance'
in respect to anti-Semitism.
> But you, recognising your own inferior debating skills,
>tried to act rather as a handicapper does before a horse race. You
>tried to handicap Jurgen by setting up limits to what he could say.
>This didn't work, and you were still being trounced by Jurgen, so you
>played that same card this group has seen you play so many times - the
>race card. You desperately wanted to end a debate you were losing, so
>out came your "you are anti-Semitic" gimmick which you figured would
>be more effective against a German than against, say, another American
>or a Brit.
>
Given that you're an admitted anti-Semite, holocaust denier
and Neo-Nazi, your defense of someone who makes an
anti-Semitic comment is understandable. But to any rational
human... you are only seen as trying to defend an anti-Semitic
comment, just as you defended Ol' Racist Nev in his attempts
to erase the murders committed in Dachau, when he insisted
that Dachau was not a death camp for Jews. Why would
any rational person concern himself with your incessant lunatic
ravings? I do so only because my "personal ends" DEMAND
that I do so. But it's become rather trivial... since all I really
have to do is point to your own words, where you ADMIT
you are a holocaust denier [1], an anti-Semite, a racist, a
bigot, and a Neo-Nazi
>So does that clear up what I am "raving about" for you?
>
Of course... you are 'raving about' defending an anti-Semitic
comment. It was to be expected... given your own proven
anti-Semitism.
>< remainder of PV's post clipped for now but I will reply to it later
>
TRANSLATION ==> I haven't quite finished venting my
anti-Semitic spleen just yet. There is a great build-up of
poisonous rage and hate for the Jews still inside of me, that
I need to expel or I will simply explode from that hate inside
of me. <==
Let it out, JPB. It can't help but be good for you.. and it is
certainly good for the rational reader, who now clearly sees
you for what you are.
PV
[1]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309190831.105ba1e9%40posting.google.com
A Planet Visitor
>
>"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
>news:u9a1nvsu0dt2455ih...@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 23:58:15 +0100, "John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
>wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
>> >news:ud3umvoufrm1fc20a...@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >snip
>> >>>
>> >> Turning to the present dialog,
>> >
>> >more like a monologue
>> >
>> What are YOU raving about? What did you expect me to post -- "Nice
>> comment, Jürgen"? You can be very biased at times, Mr. Rennie... And
>> I suspect I am about to witness one of those times.
>
>Big snip
>
>Actually I appreciated your response - I find it a pity that you didn't
>appreciate
>mine. My views are as valid as yours even though they differ - this is
>something
>you fail time and time again to understand.
>
<mild rant on>
Quite wrong. I am always appreciative of your comments... however
wrongheaded I find them to be. :-) What does bother me, however; is
what I see above, that seems to be symptomatic of much of your
comments. Presuming that YOU are aware of what's going on, and
no one else is. I am quite certain you BELIEVE your views are as
valid as mine, but YOU are not the one who can lay claim to that.
Nor am I. That must always rest in the eye of an independent source
other than you. As it must with me. We should always look with the
eye of a skeptic on any attempts to defend certain aspects of our internal
behavior. It is rather obvious we will try to defend ourselves, rather
than attack ourselves. And this is just as valid in respect to our
kinsmen, and our country. We find a subconscious kinship with them,
and tend to employ a defensive argument if they are criticized. Others
can deny this all they wish, but I see it over and over, and it has been
well-recognized as a human behavior pattern. That is why I take no
notice of Americans trying to ignore the impact of racism in the U.S.,
such as Richard. I feel it is equally why attempts to ignore the impact of
anti-Semitism in Europe by Europeans, must be looked at with that
cynical eye, by those external to the argument. It is also why I refuse
to align myself with anyone in respect to many arguments, and it
is why I demand that no one presume to take my comments in respect
to the U.S. DP as some sort of 'words from the mount.' I am well
aware that I speak from an internal perspective which must necessarily
lend some bias to any argument I offer. Others who attempt to
deny such bias in their arguments, only appear to me to be fools.
They presume they are God-like, and do not have the human foible
to exhibit any bias... believing they are 'above such crass human
behavior.' What fools those mortals be! IMHO.
And I will tell you quite frankly that in MY VIEW I find anti-Semitism
in Europe on the rise, and thus find no validity in any European
commenting that it isn't. Since such a view from a European does not
represent any independent form of thinking, but an internal view.
One that can be seen by an independent source as simply denial, perhaps
purposely so. Just as I would implore any independent eye to ignore
any arguments by Americans that 'racism is under control' in the U.S.
Although from my 'internal eye,' I see much greater efforts being
expended in the U.S. to bring racism under control in the U.S. than
I see in European efforts to bring anti-Semitism under control in
Europe. In my external eye of European anti-Semitism, I still see
much denial. Even in this microcosm of such European thinking in
AADP. Take that as my view.. and do not imply any more 'validity'
to it than that, rather than presuming it MUST be valid, as you have
offered.
<mild rant off>
<philosophical truism on>
No one can use an immoral argument to attack any behavior they
find immoral. That's rather an axiomatic and logical truth. One becomes
immoral by attempting to do so, making their original argument invalid.
The problem is defining morality. Which can only be defined in a
subjective sense. Never an objective sense. So the truism rather
swallows itself, and we are left with only our personal views, rather
than any objective 'winner.' Thus proving what I claim... there are
NO WINNERS. There are only subjective viewpoints.
<philosophic truism off>
<my internal view on>
Ol' Racist Nev did just that. Attacking Guantanamo, which he presumably
finds immoral, by using an even more immoral argument as justification
for his attack. Anyone who cannot see that... I will CLAIM is supporting
an effort in holocaust denial. Holocaust denial for whatever purpose one
might attribute it to... but nevertheless HOLOCAUST DENIAL.
There is absolutely no doubt, that "I" saw holocaust denial in his
arguments. There is absolutely no doubt, that "I" see holocaust denial,
and now clear anti-Semitism in JPB's arguments.
There are only two posters here who have insulted the memory of
every Jew murdered in the holocaust. The first was Ol' Racist Nev,
who insisted that Dachau could never be characterized as a death
camp, while in a different moment, claimed that Guantanamo COULD
become a death camp! That is absolute evidence of his attempts to
diminish the holocaust itself, and erase the evidence of the murders of
Jews in Dachau. He was dedicated to arguing that there were few
Jews in Dachau, leaving anyone of a balanced mind the impression
he was intent on -dismissing - those murders as only an insignificant
factor. Whenever he 'compared' Dachau to those 'human extermination
machines' in Eastern Europe, one could see that he was implying that
Jews in Dachau had it good, compared to the conditions in those 'other
machines,' in which they faced certain extermination if they were there
for any length of time. That is most certainly the methods of a holocaust
denier, as defined by Simon Wiesenthal, and which I totally agree is
that method and that intention. There is absolutely no leeway to imply
Ol' Racist Nev was just being 'insensitive,' since that word has no meaning
in the sense of the holocaust, other than again, a denial of the TRUE
horrendous nature of that shameful event. The word 'insensitive' ITSELF,
implies 'plausible deniability.' It is impossible, in my view, to express an
'insensitive' comment in respect to the holocaust without it passing directly
into a totally different world...a world ruled by the Neo-Nazi.
The second, was of course JPB. This became evident when he
supported the view expressed by Ol' Racist Nev. Attacking ME,
because I had stated that Ol' Racist Nev had attempted to erase
the murders committed in Dachau, in his insistence that Dachau
was 'not a death camp.' Rather than JPB attacking Ol' Racist
Nev for making what even you call 'insensitive' (your characterization)
remarks regarding the holocaust. Because it was Ol' Racist
Nev's 'insensitivity' (your characterization), there was not the slightest
possibility that JPB would EVER comment in negative terms on it.
In sum -- If I posted that "the holocaust was a terrible episode
in human history," JPB would find SOME WAY to attack those
words. Without him realizing that he paints himself as a holocaust
denier when he does so.
JPB ignored that 'insensitivity' (your characterization) displayed
by Ol' Racist Nev completely, and instead focused on PV... yet
again. Simply because I have reduced him to a whimpering cur,
in respect to his original obsession, the 'Great White Whale.'
Regardless of your presuming that you are ABLE to provide an
external view, in believing he has presented the better case in
respect to the 'Great White Whale...you must realize that your
view can ONLY be an internal view. You simply do not have
the ability to provide such an external view, regardless of how
often you state you can. Your 'kinship' connection exists,
no matter how you would argue that it 'makes no difference'
in your comments. Whether you care to hear this or not...
and whether you agree with it or not... as it represents my view:
I find many of your comments, especially when you realize
I have placed a 'kinsman' of yours in a 'delicate' position, so
to speak, to be attempts in almost every instance to 'protect
that kinsman.' Sorry , John -- that's just the way I see it.
You need not express denial here... it is a given...since you
have already done so on a number of occasions. I am simply
telling you how "I" see it, and am not claiming that anyone else
should see it as "I" see it. But I will say that any 'kinsman'
who would argue that HE doesn't see you doing so, is simply
speaking from HIS internal position vis a vis you. That is
why I value so highly remarks you provide which even in the
slightest hold for me, since they represent an external view
to my comments, making them much more valuable in
meaning (<grin>so I would appreciate more of them... if you
please </grin). It is not that I don't value, appreciate and
enjoy your comments, it is simply that I find you every bit
as vulnerable to that 'kinsman' connection as I am. In fact,
the only argument I have ever seen from anyone who
would deny this 'kinsman' connection, is the guy who says
==> but - not ME <== see <rant> above.
So... returning to JPB -- One could be deaf, dumb and blind
and still understand that he was calling ME a liar for having
attacked the comments made by Ol' Racist Nev....comments
which even you, could not help but characterize as 'insensitive'
(your characterization). I would expect that you would approve
of ME attacking comments in respect to the holocaust that you
consider 'insensitive,'(your characterization), since I don't
believe you would argue that they could be ignored. Yet JPB
did just the OPPOSITE. He attacked me for my comments.
And this, to me, was the first step taken by JPB on his way to
proving he is a holocaust revisionist... but it was enough.
The second step he took was even more positive evidence of
his methods in holocaust denial. Attacking me even more strongly
for my condemnation of Ol' Racist Nev's efforts to erase the
murder of Jews in Dachau. Now...characterizing my comments as
simply playing a "game" with the holocaust. With his disgusting
use of that obscene word, which made me sit straight up in my chair
in shock, disgust and antipathy, as he described how HE felt about
the holocaust, rather than how I felt about it. See [1] for HIM
seeing it as ONLY A "game." Those are not MY comments
I refer to, BUT HIS. HIM seeing that it was only a "game"
being played here. He learned this lying methodology under
the tutelage of his MESSIAH Who, as you recall, routinely
provided racist slurs, and claimed those slurs came from someone
else (someone he always hated, who axiomatically could only be a
retentionist). While not a shred of evidence existed that those
who he claimed had used those racist slurs could be found. Simple,
practiced , character assassination. We have all seen in the
Nameless One's posts, at one time or another. And following
in his footsteps, using the same methodology... was JPB... the
goblin [2]
You will find NO comment of mine that would indicate such a
monstrous thought in any of my posts. Anyone who can find any
evidence of my attempting in any way to diminish or erase even
the slightest aspect of the holocaust, should present it here, and
I will clearly demonstrate it is offered as a lie.. or I will leave this group
immediately to those who would deny the true scope of the holocaust.
His attempts to call my comments a "game" demonstrate how HE
feels about the holocaust. And how sickening are his methods as his
desperation to 'get PV' using any lie possible grows. Good grief,
he took some posts from me concerning "spam" back four years
from another group, devoted to retired military, to divert from the
fact he had described as "spam," most of my present comments
which rather demonstrated his holocaust denial, proving a wealth
of references and sources, while offering only that he had <clipped
unread> those comments. He sees what is going on at this moment
as a "game." He has seen this entire group as a "game" to him, from
the first moment he realized that his defense of Louise Woodward
was crumbling, but also recognized that there was a 'brace of
kinsmen' here, who would support him, using that 'internal biased
perspective' I have mentioned above in my 'mild rant.'
What is almost deliciously ironic, is that knowing he has no further
chance of dealing with the 'Great White Whale' here... as long as
I am here, he has in the past two months... taken his 'Great White
Whale' obsession to those more 'intellectually minded' newsgroups,
to vent his hysterical accusations of corruption, and conspiracy.
Those 'intellectually minded' newsgroups, such as --
alt.gossip.celebrities
alt.gossip.royalty
uk.media.tv.misc
uk.politics.misc
alt.politics.british
soc.culture.british
uk.misc
alt.true.crime
alt.politics.bush
<my internal view off>
PV
[1]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309190831.105ba1e9%40posting.google.com
[2] http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/Goblin.htm
This shows JPB was DEFENDING someone who had made
what even you have stated were 'insensitive' (your characterization)
remarks regarding the holocaust
A Planet Visitor
>A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<35bvmv4joim85q6bb...@4ax.com>...
>
>> Simple question, JPB -- How many murders would need to have been
>> committed in Dachau... before you would call it a death-camp?
>
>The answer to that question is in this post:
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309230147.bc2109%40posting.google.com
>
Hardly... I don't call obfuscation as providing an answer.
>> I fully expect that question to be handled with your patented <clipped spam>
>
>Then you were wrong again, weren't you?
>
I received exactly what I expected... Nothing from you. I
would again ask, in a more direct manner which does not
permit such deceptive responses as you provided --> Do
YOU find that Dachau was a death camp? Yes or No.
>> What insults would those be, JPB... Since none of the quotes you have
>> provided even pertain to the holocaust...
>
>I agree that those "jokes" you provided were all from the first part
>of your post in which you were responding to my comments about the
>lies you told about Desmond rather than the holocaust itself.
Ah, you mean you agree that you were simply your deceptive self.
But I already knew that. When will you provide some 'new pattern
of behavior'?
> But the
>post - indeed the whole discussion - was, primarily, about the
>holocaust. I still haven't read the remainder of your post - although
>I may do at some point -
Hardly... it will only generate a <clipped unread> if it actually pertains
to the holocaust. Since you've already decided in your mind that the
holocaust is only a "ga**" to you. See [1]
> so I don't know for sure that there are
>similarly distasteful and offensive "jokes" about the holocaust in
>there.
So now you find that attempting to place some measure of
EXISTENCE into the murders that occurred in Dachau are
only distasteful and offensive "jo***." How typical for a
holocaust denier. You are the only using all those distasteful
and offensive characterizations of the holocaust, JPB. It's
to be expected I guess, given that you ARE an ADMITTED
holocaust denier. See -- [1]
But it still turns my stomach when I see you do so.
> I suspect that there are some such "jokes"
You are the biggest "jo**" that every posted to Usenet. But the holocaust
was no "jo**." Although you now claim it was. And that makes you
very dangerous... regardless of how ignorant you obviously are. Anyone
who views the holocaust as you do... is very dangerous to the rest of
humanity... regardless of how stupid. Think of all the stupid people that
viewed the holocaust as you do... and how they tried to exterminate
an entire people, and how much they succeeded in their efforts.
> and I am almost
>certain that there will be examples of your "game"
Another word that YOU found to characterize the holocaust... not me.
And it's more revulsive, loathsome, and repugnant than I can describe.
I refuse to any longer REPEAT how YOU feel about the holocaust.
It is too hideous and shocking to again show up in my words, even
though they are only quotes of YOUR WORDS to demonstrate that
the words are yours. In the future I will simply refer back to the two
posts of YOURS... where you claim that such is how YOU see the
holocaust... not me. the only four letter word I find that describes the
holocaust is "evil." Only the most "evil" holocaust denier could ever
CONCEIVE of describing the holocaust using such an "evil" term.
Oh... wait... it's JPB... thus... it was simply to be expected.
> in there (i.e.
>deliberate lies designed to cause anger).
Well... your lies DID anger my for a moment...a moment when I felt
like retching seeing such evil in AADP. More evil than joe1orbit.
Leaving little doubt that you would gladly be a henchman to Himmler,
if you only had a chance to turn back time. But I then resigned myself
to the fact that this is Usenet, and my attempts to combat your evil
are limited to my "inept" words. Those 'unoriginal and unimaginative'
"inept" words that are recognized as TRUTHS. That's all we have
to combat lies. The unvarnished truth. Your adamant admissions to
your own holocaust denial remind me of that same behavior of
Adolf Eichmann, perhaps one of your heroes, who remarked at trial
in Israel -- "To sum it all up, I must say that I regret nothing... I
will not humble myself or repent in any way." The mirror, JPB...
if I could only get you for one fleeting moment in time to look in the
mirror and see yourself. Even the Nameless One did so for that
tiny moment, when Donna called him obscene. But it seems no
words move you... you are implacably evil... and you regret
nothing from that evil. Again, I would implore you to weep for
the victims --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/The_victims.htm
> But even if there are no
>"jokes" and no lies, are you saying that you could so easily switch
>from telling "jokes" to becoming more serious and respectful in the
>space dividing two paragraphs? If your post does indeed appear as if
>you have done, then I have no doubt that the seriousness will have
>been faked.
>
Of course I can separate those ideas. Are you saying that you could
provide the MOST IGNORANT comments imaginable, and then
add one line at the bottom containing another of your pathetic holocaust
denial 'Nazi slogans,' and then claim I could not laugh at the IGNORANCE
that is OTHERWISE present in your post? You have the most unbelievably
illogical methods of argument I've ever seen. Each COMMENT you
make... stands as an INDEPENDENT comment, and will be treated
as such. I Find it impossible to accept that ANYTHING cannot
be serious when speaking of the holocaust ITSELF. There is absolutely
nothing that one could make 'light' of in respect to the holocaust ITSELF.
Thus, I found your attempts to do so, more repugnant than you could ever
imagine... given that the holocaust is not a 'serious' matter to you.
That says NOTHING about comments you make that are not in
respect to the holocaust.
Now.. be clear about this, since my words do not intend to PROTECT
the holocaust denier himself from RIDICULE. That does not mean
that those who are holocaust deniers are above being characterized
in the most offensive of terms... such as when I call you an offensive,
brutish, depraved, immoral, filthy, disgusting, perverse, scum of the
earth. In those cases I am simply providing TRUTHS, and those
truths would contain not the slightest hint of humor in them. You,
as a holocaust denier, are not PROTECTED from the TRUTH.
Further, there might even be moments that I could not hold back
a contemptuous laugh at your evil.. a rueful admission that our
species is not as moral as we would hope it might be.. given
your evil. I have often felt that contemptuous laugh when reading
some of your comments. That does not mean I would be laughing
at the subject of those comments, which might well be very serious
subjects, but at you... for the disgusting comment to that subject
you have provided. You have no idea how often I gave you a
contemptuous laugh, when you insulted the life works of MLK.
There is no doubt that your efforts here, have absolutely NOTHING
to do with the holocaust. As with racism, the holocaust has NEVER
been a concern of yours... NEVER. It only became one when you
realized that I had provided a negative comment to Ol' Racist Nev's
anti-Semitic remark. And at that moment... anti-Semitism became
YOUR cause, as well. Leading YET AGAIN, as in your exposure
as a racist, to your exposure as a holocaust denier. You need to rethink
your anti-PV stance, JPB. Because each time you do, it exposes
another layer of your evil. Such as the latest exposure of your bigotry,
in the Jürgen posts. You're really 'running out of evils' to support,
JPB. I don't think I've EVER heard of ANYONE doing that before.
>< everything else clipped >
TRANSLATION ==> Like the good little "holocaust revisionist" I am,
I will simply follow the example of my hero, Adolf Eichmann.. and deny...
deny...deny.... <==
Just passing by
< clipped >
As I will shortly be away for a while, I will now use this latest post
of PV's to briefly summarise what I see as the effect our recent
exchanges have had on him.
PV is usually one of the most prolific posters in this group, posting
on a wide variety of topics and contributing (I use that word loosely)
to most threads here, as well as beginning many of his own. But now
look at him. With only a few exceptions, he now posts on only one
theme - his denial of my accusations that he has laughed, joked and
giggled at the Nazi holocaust, and that he has used it as material for
his "games".
In his desperation to 'shut me up' he has now even been reduced to
stalking me in other newsgroups. That is something he has never done
before. During our long exchanges on the LW case, he never became that
desperate. Not even when I was exposing his bogus anti racism did his
despair drive him that far. So this tells me that PV's current
frustration and despair is deeper than at any point in any previous
period of arguments between the two of us. And the reason for that is
because this issue - the holocaust - and the exposure of the way he
has been mocking the victims of that tragedy has driven him to a point
where he can no longer control his frustration at his failure to stop
me from showing how his claims of being deeply concerned about the
holocaust are nothing more than a sham.
This latest post from PV is a classic study into his "the lie becomes
the truth" gimmick.
http://www.chez.com/desmondcoughlan/dp/gimmicks/166.html
Notice how many times in that post he accuses me of being an
"admitted" holocaust revisionist, an "admitted" holocaust denier, an
"admitted" racist, an "admitted" neo-Nazi, an "admitted" liar. I
recently exposed the way PV uses this word "admitted" to give his lies
that appearance of having been previously proven, established and
uncontested. But it is all made up by PV, as I showed in this post:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309230303.39f95c05%40posting.google.com
PV's use of his "you have admitted" gimmick (which should surely now
be added to the official list of his gimmicks) was in greater evidence
in this latest post than I have ever seen before. And that is another
indication of how desperate he has now become because of this
"giggling at the holocaust" matter.
What PV hates most about me is not my views, my posting style nor even
my attacks on him, but the fact that whatever insults and lies he
posts about me are like water off a duck's back to me. He can't
understand why I am never in the slightest bit hurt by his insults. He
puts up web pages about me calling me such things as "a lovelorn
fruitcake" and a "goblin" and expects this to somehow shake me off or
at the very least slow me down. But it never does, and that is what so
frustrates PV. He hates Desmond for the same reason. Desmond receives
more abuse in this group than anyone else and - except when it
involves his family - just laughs it all off.
PV can't understand that because he is not like that. Despite
misleading appearances PV is actually very sensitive to criticism. Not
just any criticism - he is as thick skinned as anyone most of the time
- but that which exposes him as a fake. There are a few issues (the DP
is not one of them) that PV desperately needs everyone, on every side
of every argument, to take him seriously on. And that need is an
emotional one - a very deep emotional one. When PV sees his
"reputation" on those issues under threat, he completely goes to
pieces. And the recent desperate behaviour and extreme change in PV's
posting patterns reflect the emotional despair PV has now been reduced
to.
When PV uses his 'you have admitted' gimmick with such astonishing
regularity in the space of just one posting, when he is reduced to
stalking me, when he puts up his web pages, what he is saying is not
really "JPB is an evil goblin" or even "this is my revenge on JPB" but
"please stop exposing me, JPB" and "please go away and let me get back
to posting in this group as I was before".
Which I am shortly going to do, at least for a while. But I would
advise any others whom PV tells lies about and deliberately distorts
the arguments of, to keep at him relentlessly. Don't let his
inevitable stepping up of the lies deter you. Don't be intimidated by
anything that man tries to throw at you. He is a total fake and if you
are determined enough, you can use that fact to hit him much harder
than he can ever hit you. Trying to argue with reason with PV about
the DP or any other topic is not the way. You have to strike his
Achilles' Heel. You will know when you have done that by his reaction.
His reaction to my exposing his laughing at the holocaust over the
past week shows that I have most definitely hit that Achilles' Heel of
his harder than I have ever done before....... and, as hard as he has
tried, he has still failed to even find mine.
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
> On 24 Sep 2003 01:45:40 -0700, unimpre...@yahoo.com (Just passing by) wrote:
>
> >A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<knq1nv4kffhumtm0c...@4ax.com>...
> >
> >
> >> But the most disturbing
> >> comment he made... which suddenly became not so subtle, and which
> >> I believe he would have taken back if he could have... were these
> >> words -- "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner
> >> and declare Israel the 53 US-state?"
> >>
> >> Sound a bit 'bigoted' and 'anti-Semitic' to you?
> >
> >No, not in the slightest.
>
> Well, well, well. Another demonstration of your holocaust denial. You
> now argue that a "star" has no significance in respect to the holocaust!!!
Well, aPV obviously would like to make a case that I, being a German, can
not use the word 'star' without referring to the IIIrd Reich's progroms.
But indeed, I can say "Star" without addressing this special meaning.
> The U.S. flag uses Stars to represent the number of states within that
> Union of States.
That's it.
Klaun
<500 lines deleted>
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
and we can all hear the resounding "crash" as PV comes tumbling to earth.
Ouch! All we really need to do is is _ask_ if posters believe in the
holocaust. Holocaust deniers never claim to be otherwise - else there
would be no reason to deny the holocaust.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"They've got to be protected/All their rights respected ((o))
Until someone we like can be elected." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
A Planet Visitor
>A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<35bvmv4joim85q6bb...@4ax.com>...
>
>< clipped >
>
>This is separate from my other reply to the same post because I have
>only now read through your whole message and found something else that
>I think I should comment about.
>
A first!!. JPB actually READ one of my posts. How refreshing, compared
to his <clipped unread> to the rest of them.
>
>> The "matter" is the holocaust. None of your references in the slightest refer
>> to the holocaust, but rather to your lies in respect to my recognition of
>> the Nameless One as a racist more than three years ago, and your inability to
>> recognize the predator/prey instinct of the cat toward the sparrow. It's not
>> that you don't see it... you just REFUSE to see it. For the simple reason
>> that you would never criticize your MESSIAH.
>
>
>The person you refer to there is Desmond (who is not my messiah)
Oh, please... See --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/Goblin.htm
You said you weren't a 'chubby chaser' either. But everyone sees through
those lies... even if you didn't put the word "admitted" in your sentence
when you lied.
> and
>for once I think your criticism of me is not entirely invalid. I must
>admit that there was one occasion when I believe Desmond went too far
>in one of his attacks on you. That was when he wrote mockingly of your
>father. Had you written something like that about his father, I would
>probably have posted an attack on you for doing that. I criticised you
>when you posted offensive comments about Desmond's baby, but I didn't
>criticise Desmond for posting offensive comments about your father,
>and so I guess I have been guilty of double standards, which I am now
>happy to put right by stating that I totally disagree with Desmond for
>those comments.
Quit sucking up, JPB. Don't need it...don't WANT it. And you
look like a pathetic phoney when you do. You are a racist...
PROVEN. That is simply inexcusable. I have said that I am
a forgiving man. When you provide an open APOLOGY to
MLK, to the members here, and to ME... and ADMIT your
purpose was simply to DEFEND a racist, who had supported
you in the 'Great White Whale,' and it just got out of control,
there might be a small step to an understanding. I actually
don't care about any apology to me.. but it is essential to
the memory of MLK for you to do so, since lacking one to
me, it would presume that your words did not provide that
insult to MLK, and you could just say you apologize for
words that I 'misunderstood.' I need it PLAIN and POSITIVE.
But if you presume that pitiful excuse about my father, will buy you
some points...think again, sport. This is a harsh environment... and
the Nameless One's insult in respect to my father, is not 0.001% worth
squat, when weighed against the totality of his insults to other
members over a great length of time. Point is... there IS no insult
he could offer which would not roll right off my back. I left that
long ago... when I saw murder threats against me... and in respect
to family.. received these words from dirtdog in the past -- "
"the last thing i had to get off my chest was was my own jism - your
mother spat it back at me after i shot my load in her mouth" See
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=423gftstqali8054vp7c5d2makj7vj3mhv%404ax.com
At that moment, I recognized this was a knife fight, with no rules.
Aren't you 'proud' to be part of such great abolitionists?
When you CALL the Nameless One a RACIST... and denounce his
many racist slurs... see -
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/The_Nameless_One.htm
That will demonstrate you are serious... Then... get back to me.
>I also totally disagree with the offensive comments I once saw Neville
>post about your wife, and again I happily put on record that I would
>never associate myself with such comments.
>
Once again... Ol' Racist Nev is the one who threatened me with
MURDER. One of a number of abolitionists who have done so.
A great group of abolitionists. Save the murderer... but murder
the man who supports execution of some of the most depraved
murderers among all murderers. His words --
"stay the fuck out of Derbyshire, scum, else you'll be swimming in the
Erewash Canal with all the other old boots." See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=a5ec705.0304300639.5cfabaf4%40posting.google.com
Once again... there were no RULES with Ol' Racist Nev... so
anything you say about any comment I made to him, which
you contend is a lie is simply your support for a poster who
has expressed a wish to murder me. I found that ANYTHING
I said to him, could NEVER be presumed to be a lie...
axiomatically. Since there WERE NO RULES. Nor would
I characterize his many ravings as lies (although I probably
called them that at the time). I really believe he was so evil
that he did not BELIEVE they were lies, and as the person
who lacks the mental faculties to UNDERSTAND his
crime, cannot be charged with that crime... so too
Ol' Racist Nev lacked the mental faculties to UNDERSTAND
he was lying, and thus I find it difficult to call him a liar. I
could bang him over the head with FACTS and the TRUTH...
and he would simply continue on as if nothing had
penetrated, and repeat his lies. But his WORDS certainly
were evil... even if he did not UNDERSTAND that they
were lies. And thus... finding his words so evil,
ANY characterization I might apply to that evil, could
never be presumed as a lie.. but simply the truth,
exposing his lies, which he little understood were lies.
As I said... between us... there WERE no RULES...
so YOU cannot presume to 'act as an umpire' and
determine the 'rules' that he and I must play by.
He could, and did, say anything about me. And
I could, and did, say anything about him. And only
the 'eye of the beholder,' could judge whom to
accept... without presuming any preconditions of
rules, which neither of us abided by.
>However much I agree with the attacks Desmond and Neville have made on
>you (and I certainly do)
Huh??? So you agree with Ol' Racist Nev threatening me with
murder?
> I think they should avoid extending those
>attacks to members of your family.
What a huge bunch of double-talk horseshit. You agree, and
disagree. While, both have in a great sense THREATENED me.
> However loathsome you are
Hey... coming from a racist, anti-Semite, holocaust denier, bigot...
that's a compliment. I hope ALL racists, anti-Semites, holocaust
deniers, and bigots find me loathsome. That IS my "personal
ends," JPB. You admitted that it is. I find you rather loathsome,
myself, and I'm not in love with a baby-killer.
> and
>however many lies you tell, I will never use this newsgroup to attack
>members of your family whom I know absolutely nothing about.
How very noble, you fruitcake. Please do not suck up to me, or
this group with that pathetic drivel. If you felt it would help your
case with the 'Great White Whale' there are no lengths you would
not go to. You proved that exact point when you implied over and
over that I was a racist... everyone saw it. But you went into
denial... and didn't have the guts to actually come out with it...
because you felt it might affect your precious imaginary 'credibility.'
You are such a PHONEY. You are not even actually
talking to ME here... you are again PREEENING yourself in
front of the group.. so that THEY will think you have LIMITS...
when I am certain that you have none. The only limits you
have are those that you feel might affect that 'credibility.'
Even the Nameless One has MORE CHARACTER than
you. Since he comes out and states he has no limits. At
least he has the guts to say it. While you hide behind that
phoney facade, hoping others believe you are 'moral' and
have limits. You disgust me.. even more than the Nameless
One disgusts me. Although, if the Nameless One reads
these words... I am sure they will provide the impetus
for him to try even harder to again regain the 'disgust' crown,
that he values so highly. Can a few FW's be far behind?
PV
Just passing by
> I actually
> don't care about any apology to me..
An apology? PV, if you thought that was an apology to you, then you
misread it. I owe you no apology.
That statement was simply to confirm that I have no animosity to any
member of your family because there is no guilt by association. But
YOU? Let me say again that, apart from insults to your family, I do
not condemn anything that any poster here has ever posted against you.
I will keep this short by reminding you to read my latest post in the
"PV the stalker" thread and, with that in mind, to consider the very
final sentence you wrote in that oft quoted post of yours from your
second day of posting here back in April 2000.
Two days ago, in that stalking attempt, you removed the boundary that
previously we had both recognised. In doing so you gave me the excuse
I needed to take this to a new level.
A Planet Visitor
>A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<oop3nv4lmrd27mbbn...@4ax.com>...
>
>
>< clipped >
>
>As I will shortly be away for a while,
Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else, JPB... I would hope you
are making an exit from racist, anti-Semitism, holocaust denial, and
bigotry... and embarking on an entrance to enlightenment and respect
for humanity. God speed... if that is the reason for your hiatus.
> I will now use this latest post
>of PV's to briefly summarise what I see as the effect our recent
>exchanges have had on him.
>
What you should concern yourself with is the fact that our recent
exchanges have had very little effect on you. You still remain the
scum of the earth. While I remain as "inept" as ever in trying to
bring you into the light.
>PV is usually one of the most prolific posters in this group, posting
>on a wide variety of topics and contributing (I use that word loosely)
>to most threads here, as well as beginning many of his own.
Everyone here knows that you are now having another psychotic
episode, since I am well-recognized as a reactive poster, rather than
a pro-active poster. The number of threads that I begin here, are
hardly a drop in the bucket, compared to those that others begin.
Of course, given the anti-Semitism that seems to predominate
among some Europeans, I have today contributed a beginning to
a thread, which I imagine will most certainly be condemned by you
as simply being "spam," since it reflects a growing discontent
among the Jews of Israel, in respect to the actions taken by their
military. A discontent that I totally agree with. Now if I could only
see similar actions on the part of the suicide terrorists who robotically
and fanatically take orders from the leadership of Palestinian Hamas.
However... don't hold your breath. The leadership of both
sides can only be seen as destructive to the people that they
are supposed to help. And many are the 'sheep' on both
sides who accept the leadership leading them to the slaughter.
> But now
>look at him. With only a few exceptions, he now posts on only one
>theme - his denial of my accusations that he has laughed, joked and
>giggled at the Nazi holocaust, and that he has used it as material for
>his "games".
>
Not really... I posted exclusively on your obsession with the
'Great White Whale' to another group... and you went positively ballistic.
There was not ONE MENTION of your proven racism..etc..etc. in
my post... Just a line that laughed (something I would never do in
any comment referring to the holocaust), and provided a reference to --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/JPB.html
And said -- "Guess who, JPB? You fruitcake."
Naturally, you responded EXACTLY as the purpose of my
stalking intended. No longer defending the 'Great White Whale,'
but accusing me of the behavior that YOU have demonstrated over
and over in AADP. Again pathetically begging the members to
believe you were 'planning to expose me.'
Beggars ought to be abolished... certainly from Usenet. Posters
are not happy giving to them. Doing so most reluctantly. And
posters are not happy NOT giving to them...feeling they have failed
in some 'obligation.' Beggars DEPEND on that... and do not care
at all that they have engendered those feelings, concerning themselves
only with 'what's in it for me.' And actually... you do a very pathetic
job of begging to posters in any group.
You claimed I am 'stalking' you, and I would not disagree that strongly,
although as with my "personal ends" you see it only as an insult. Law
enforcement stalks criminals... anti-war demonstrators stalk those
who support a particular war. The stalking of the Nazis who had
fled Germany after the war... such as Eichmann. However ineffective
(and it certainly seems so to me at present) the effort to stalk Bin
Laden and Saddam, I believe the purpose is honorable. Stalking is
wrong when its PURPOSE is wrong. The stalking of evil can never
be wrong. So stalking YOU... a racist, an anti-Semite, a Holocaust
denier, and a bigot, cannot be seen as wrong by any rational human
being. And as with all evil... you FEAR being stalked. Well... suck
it up, sport, because when you bring up your obsession with the
'Great White Whale' in ANY newsgroup, contending 'corruption'
in the process, and I find it... rest assured you will be stalked with
the TRUTH that is in my URL. And nothing else, until you enter
with your hysterical raves of a racist in denial.
>In his desperation to 'shut me up' he has now even been reduced to
>stalking me in other newsgroups.
Ah... if only that could 'shut you up,' JPB. But unfortunately,
evil has a way of believing that it cannot be 'shut up.' Let me be
clear about this... whenever you post your raving hysterical obsession
with the 'Great White Whale,' in ANY newsgroup, I will stalk you
with the TRUTH, simply providing my URL which provides the
TRUTH about her. Not mentioning your other evil aspects until
you do. . Which was the case when you exposed yourself after
I posted the TRUTH, only about the 'Great White Whale.' Stalking
you with the TRUTH cannot in any case be seen as stalking.
You are the one stalking JUSTICE... which was served up
in the conviction of the 'Great White Whale'... with your obsessive
'chubby-chaser' psychotic disorder, that you spread like a virus
across a broad band of Usenet groups Groups that you now
'demand' I should not comment to, about your psychotic disorder.
Your thinking is --- shhhh...it's JPB... don't mention the 'Great
White Whale'...
> That is something he has never done
>before. During our long exchanges on the LW case, he never became that
>desperate. Not even when I was exposing his bogus anti racism did his
>despair drive him that far. So this tells me that PV's current
>frustration and despair is deeper than at any point in any previous
>period of arguments between the two of us.
I think it's rather obvious who is entering a period of frustration and
despair, JPB. Your tenure in various newsgroups, in displaying your
love for the 'Great White Whale' is being exposed for what it is.
You now, as usual, begin CRYING before the group, that PV is stalking
poor ol' JPB, and won't leave him alone to spread his vile poison..
All those who don't see JPB crying... raise your hands. All those
who think I CANNOT dispute JPB's accusations of corruption in
the 'Great White Whale,' raise your hands. Keep in mind that doing
so is also a vote to abolish 'free speech.' See how easy it is to _win_
the apathy vote, JPB?
I will say this slowly and clearly... perhaps it will sink in.. perhaps not.
When you post ANY comment that relates to the 'Great White Whale,'
that suggests any hint whatsoever of corruption in her conviction, in
ANY newsgroup, I will exercise my 'right of free speech,' and provide
the URL I have created to dispel any belief that she was innocent. You
may 'exercise you free speech' to do whatever you wish. As I exercised
my 'free speech.'. I will search google for your handle and any connection
with the words "LW," "Louise," or "Woodward." Be forewarned. I will
not mention any other aspect, until you begin your rages, about other
aspects. This is not stalking... but spreading the TRUTH. You have
never known the difference, since you certainly stalked me here...
with lies, after having been soundly whipped in respect to the 'Great
White Whale.' A whipping you just could not emotionally handle. Thus,
began your defense of a racist... and continued with your own
exposure as a racist in your disgusting attacks on the life and works
of MLK... calling him a "phoney," and his life works, only a "gimmick."
It's been all morally, intellectually and logically downhill for you ever
since. I may be "inept" but you will find me determined. And if I am
"inept" why would you WHINE about my posting to your comments
in another group? That would seem to make your obsession seem only
more valid. I think your reason is more FEAR... than any belief that
I am "inept."
> And the reason for that is
>because this issue - the holocaust - and the exposure of the way he
>has been mocking the victims of that tragedy has driven him to a point
>where he can no longer control his frustration at his failure to stop
>me from showing how his claims of being deeply concerned about the
>holocaust are nothing more than a sham.
I was not the one who characterized the holocaust as a "ga**." YOU
WERE -- See your own words--where you did so in --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309190831.105ba1e9%40posting.google.com
>This latest post from PV is a classic study into his "the lie becomes
>the truth" gimmick.
>
>http://www.chez.com/desmondcoughlan/dp/gimmicks/166.html
>
Actually, my purpose in stalking you in respect to the lies you
spill out onto other groups about the 'Great White Whale,'
is simply to spread the TRUTH. That TRUTH that you cannot
handle, and thus, again, as you did with my anti-racism... you
demand that I leave you alone... to spread those lies. Sorry,
sport... it's a 'free country,' and attacking lies is simply part of
my "personal ends." You must be absolutely enraged at my
attempts at spreading that truth. How you must feel degraded
and insulted that a poster might actually try to spread the truth
about the 'Great White Whale.' Really, JPB... you are simply
demonstrating just how OBSESSED you are with her.
>Notice how many times in that post he accuses me of being an
>"admitted" holocaust revisionist,
See above...anyone who would characterize the holocaust as
a "ga**," is AXIOMATICALLY:a holocaust denier in my view.
And I will continue to refer to the evidence I see that you have
admitted being one.
> an "admitted" holocaust denier, an
>"admitted" racist,
Quite right. Anyone who would attack MLK, calling him a "phoney,"
and his life works a "Gimmick" is AXIOMATICALLY an admitted
racist.
> an "admitted" neo-Nazi,
That simply goes along AXIOMATICALLY with every admitted holocaust
denier. See above.
> an "admitted" liar.
AXIOMATICALLY... You've certainly done that, in respect to the powers
held by Judge Zobel, that you lied about. Even your MESSIAH characterized
you as a liar, when he stated "PV is right."
> I recently exposed the way PV uses this word "admitted" to give his lies
>that appearance of having been previously proven, established and
>uncontested. But it is all made up by PV, as I showed in this post:
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309230303.39f95c05%40posting.google.com
>
>PV's use of his "you have admitted" gimmick (which should surely now
>be added to the official list of his gimmicks) was in greater evidence
>in this latest post than I have ever seen before.
You're the one who used that word, as the condition of your lies...
You 'admitted' that in --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9gi7nvgtcjiemhfk6fqkorhbqv1l484ju1%404ax.com
Where you posted these exact words -- "I like to use this word "admitted"
when I lie about people..."
>And that is another
>indication of how desperate he has now become because of this
>"giggling at the holocaust" matter.
>
I think the desperation is coming from you, in the fact that I am
stalking the lies you spread in other groups, about the 'Great White
Whale.' You are the one "gig*****" about the holocaust, JPB.
I find nothing about it that would require that characterization,
but you certainly have. See again YOUR WORDS --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309190831.105ba1e9%40posting.google.com
I cannot remember when I've been more sickened then by your
constant references to the holocaust using those two obscene,
detestable, shameful, loathsome characterizations. You must really
hate the Jews to refer to the holocaust in terms meant so clearly to
turn what was a gruesome event in our human history, into something
less than what it was. But I have long ago realized that nothing is
beneath you. Absolutely NOTHING. See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=6db2nv0c3c7gv9avq38s8o71fj49n40vkr%404ax.com
>What PV hates most about me is not my views, my posting style nor even
>my attacks on him, but the fact that whatever insults and lies he
>posts about me are like water off a duck's back to me.
No, JPB.. it's just your views... plain and simple. I know nothing
about you BUT your views... thus is it inconceivable that I could
hate what I do not know. Nor can I fully COMPREHEND your
views... given the absolute evil they contain. But what I do
comprehend of them, is what I hate. Thus... it is your views
I hate... and nothing else. And of course... don't you think that
ALL racists, anti-Semites, holocaust deniers, and bigots find
that insults toward them fall like water off a duck's back? Of
course they do... because they are unable to see themselves.
> He can't
>understand why I am never in the slightest bit hurt by his insults. He
>puts up web pages about me calling me such things as "a lovelorn
>fruitcake" and a "goblin" and expects this to somehow shake me off or
>at the very least slow me down.
It would seem as if you DID become angry about my URL. That's
rather in evidence, since you immediately began attacking me about
your own racism, etc... in that group. And began whining here, that
I was stalking your lies, in that other group. You will notice that I
never mentioned it here, until you did.
> But it never does, and that is what so
>frustrates PV. He hates Desmond for the same reason.
Quite right... I hate the views of the Nameless One quite as much
as I do yours. And I cannot deny that it is often frustrating in
fighting evil. But if I don't do it... who will?
> Desmond receives
>more abuse in this group than anyone else and - except when it
>involves his family - just laughs it all off.
>
The Nameless One provides more abuse in this group than
any ten other posters... including you. Remember his June 7
posting history? TWENTY-SIX 'mindless drivel' posts each
containing nothing but one or two lines of obscene insults
directed toward other posters. IN ONE DAY -- See -
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=fbbtlvo3mruihfrc6rc344thu3dp83c90r%404ax.com
But I'm sure you will defend him... claiming all 26 were only
"pejoratives." As you defended his racist slurs -- See -
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/The_Nameless_One.htm
Remember this abuse he heaped on AADP? These ugly, ugly
words --
"When we as abolitionists, gaze down into the pit, and see
the teeming mass of deathies. When we shield our noses from
the fetid stench of rotting corpses mixed with the fresh smell
of semen. When we look upon their squat, evil faces, and
yellow hate-filled eyes ... we, as dwellers of the Light, have
a moral duty to lift them from their vile, repulsive, bestial
fantasies."
And these --
"The deathies will look upon his departure, wipe the saliva
from their chins, and go back to masturbating over
images of the 'gurney' (sic), or the electric chair."
I do believe I sense him 'masturbating' as he posted
that vile filth.
And of course the coup de grāce, since you argued that his
cat/sparrow post had no meaning in respect to 'ripping
other humans to shreds.' Allow me to offer some other
words of his in another post -- His words, which I will
often repeat if anyone argues that his cat/sparrow comment
did not have the exact meaning I have imported to it --
His words --
"As deathies (cf. Scum) are murderers in their own right,
Richard (except more cowardly than the latter, as they get
the state to kill for them), ripping them to shreds is both
justified, and wholly moral." See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20030906190520.12501.00002247%40mb-m04.aol.com
I believe that NO ONE can conclude that his meaning is other
than A PHYSICAL SENSE, rather than a metaphoric sense.
He feels quite JUSTIFIED in physically ripping retentionists
to shreds. I do believe you picked a 'loser' when you
decided to defend his cat/sparrow disgusting display of
hate toward his fellow-man. Simply because that fellow-man
finds some murderers have lost every possibility of claiming
a 'right to life.' Those murderers having extinguished such a
right for so many others. The Nameless One, rather than
accept that other fellow-men may disagree with his view,
would rather rip them to shreds, and save the murderer.
And you wonder WHY I would call him a murderer-lover?
Get real!
>PV can't understand that because he is not like that.
I get down on my knees, and thank my Maker... over and over...
that I am NOT LIKE either you or the Nameless One, in
ANY respect. It is one of the most humbling experiences of
my life... the recognition that I have not a single characteristic
that dominates the personas that both of you project onto
AADP.
>Despite
>misleading appearances PV is actually very sensitive to criticism.
If I were, I would certainly not be posting to this group. Nor
would the Nameless One. You are the one who is so sensitive
to criticism, JPB. Although you have never had the ability to
be introspective about your emotional responses. You jumped
like a marionette when you detected some slight criticism directed
toward you, from those you expected to be the 'friends' you so
desperately seek here.
I was not the one who came CRYING to AADP, that poor ol'
JPB was being stalked by mean ol' PV, in another group, in respect
to his obsession with the 'Great White Whale.' As I recall that
is the subject of this post alone. Your CRYING that I happen
to not like staying quiet while you spread your lies in a number of
groups in Usenet.
Look at your words.. just above -- "In his desperation to 'shut me
up' he has now even been reduced to stalking me in other newsgroups."
Now, I would ask -- who is CRYING to AADP? Who is
trying to 'shut ME up,' in those other groups, about your obsession?
Did I give the slightest indication I was trying to 'shut you
up'? Quite frankly I was trying to get you to respond, rather
than 'shut you up.' And you did so... exactly as I anticipated you
would... with more of your raving, hysterical accusations directed
at me. Simply because I provided a URL which points to the TRUTH
about the 'Great White Whale.' And your raving, hysterical
accusations in your response did not even concern itself with the
'Great White Whale,' but became a total personal character
assassination.... simply proving that YOU are what you would
try to 'pin on me.' It could not have possibly worked out better.
And your whining here in AADP... is simply 'icing on the cake.'
Because YOU are the one 'sensitive to criticism.' Live with it.
I was about to say - add hypocrite to your view - but then I
realized it would not be 'adding' hypocrite... it would just be
another example of hypocrite that you've so often displayed
in the past.
> Not
>just any criticism - he is as thick skinned as anyone most of the time
>- but that which exposes him as a fake.
All I see is you here --- WHINING to the group, sport. Not me.
> There are a few issues (the DP
>is not one of them) that PV desperately needs everyone, on every side
>of every argument, to take him seriously on.
Please, JPB... even you must see how clumsy and ignorant that
claim is. You can certainly be pathetic... most especially at this
moment... where your ENTIRE POST here is 'directed to the
group,' rather than to me. Notice that I speak directly to you
here... while you have only WHINED to the group. Again,
BEGGING them to reestablish your imaginary 'credibility.' So
horribly damaged since you departed from the argument regarding
the 'Great White Whale.' You are simply WHINING because
I stalked your lies about the 'Great White Whale' into another group.
Get accustomed to it, sport. Since it will be a constant occurrence
from now on, whenever you attack the findings of guilt of the 'Great
White Whale.' Expect my URL to stalk your lies. In ANY Usenet
group! As I once told the Nameless One -- this will get ugly, and
it will not end neatly. Especially for the 'Great White Whale.'
> And that need is an
>emotional one - a very deep emotional one.
Yes... it is... an emotional need to maintain my self-respect. Nothing
whatsoever to do with any 'image projection' that is so important
to you. Maintain my self-respect through expressing my opinions.
Something that eludes you completely. Given that once you began
your illicit love-affair with the 'Great White Whale,' every semblance of
self-respect and dignity you might have had vanished... like dust in
the wind. You've even admitted that I have anti-racism as a
"personal ends." I would never deny that. A very deeply emotional
"personal ends" I might add. You found something evil in having
anti-racism as a "personal ends." Again... that AXIOMATICALLY
makes you an admitted racist.
> When PV sees his
>"reputation" on those issues under threat, he completely goes to
>pieces. And the recent desperate behaviour and extreme change in PV's
>posting patterns reflect the emotional despair PV has now been reduced
>to.
The only 'reputation' I have here... is one of being an aggressive,
opinionated poster. Fully admitted. But certainly not intended to
gain a 'favorable reputation' here... since I would abjure any desire
to gain such a reputation. I hope I am more disliked than liked here.
I am sure I am... and that's part of what keeps me here. Since my
opinions are important to me. While the OPINIONS of others don't
mean squat to me... I am only swayed by FACTS... as I see those
FACTS. Unlike the 'sheep' I often see here... I make up my own
mind... independent from the 'wolves' who prey on the 'sheep'
hoping to change their views using OPINION alone. I expect no
one to change his view because of my OPINION. In fact, I DEMAND
that no one change his view because of my opinion. They must form
their opinions within THEMSELVES, and not depend on me to
formulate their opinions for them. I am not here to make 'friends,' in
this imaginary forum, as you so desperately demonstrate, but to
confront those I see as holding views contrary to my own. This is not
'alt.grandma's.knitting-circle.' This is supposed to be a confrontational
newsgroup, or I would not be here. I left a newsgroup long ago,
that was only a 'comrades' group. They have their purpose, but
this is not such a group. And the fact that you are now an admitted
murderer-lover, racist, anti-Semite, holocaust denier, bigot... makes
it IMPERATIVE that I confront YOU. I would be unable to look
myself in the mirror, were I not to do so.
>When PV uses his 'you have admitted' gimmick with such astonishing
>regularity in the space of just one posting, when he is reduced to
>stalking me, when he puts up his web pages, what he is saying is not
>really "JPB is an evil goblin" or even "this is my revenge on JPB" but
>"please stop exposing me, JPB" and "please go away and let me get back
>to posting in this group as I was before".
But you did admit it. And that's what hurts you terribly, because I
believe you wish you could take those two posts back... but you
cannot... thus you are forced to become hysterical... over and over...
and DEFEND what you realize you cannot defend. Just as when
you were boxed in as a proven racist... and found you needed to
DEFEND what you had certainly admitted to. See --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309190831.105ba1e9%40posting.google.com
Your admission of your holocaust denial, simply in your characterization
of how you see the holocaust. You do not find it 'real,' but 'imaginary.'
You are a total disgrace to every moral concept. Not I -- but six million
humans call you a disgrace. Six million humans say "As I depart
this vale -- remember me. Speak of me always in somber tones...
in grave and reverent words. Since I was not a number... but a human -
just as you are now." And you, JPB... YOU only provide insults,
calling that hideous time... only a "ga**" to you.
>Which I am shortly going to do, at least for a while. But I would
>advise any others whom PV tells lies about and deliberately distorts
>the arguments of, to keep at him relentlessly. Don't let his
>inevitable stepping up of the lies deter you. Don't be intimidated by
>anything that man tries to throw at you. He is a total fake and if you
>are determined enough, you can use that fact to hit him much harder
>than he can ever hit you. Trying to argue with reason with PV about
>the DP or any other topic is not the way. You have to strike his
>Achilles' Heel. You will know when you have done that by his reaction.
>His reaction to my exposing his laughing at the holocaust over the
>past week shows that I have most definitely hit that Achilles' Heel of
>his harder than I have ever done before....... and, as hard as he has
>tried, he has still failed to even find mine.
Lots of raving... as usual. No substance... as usual. You really
should follow your own advice.... but given that 'reason' is simply
another intellectual capability you lack... I recognized your limitations
in providing any 'reason' to your dialog. And if that were your only
limitation, I could be more forgiving. But you have coupled that
lack of 'reason' with the most incredible display of now overt
racism, anti-Semitism, etc..etc..that I have ever witnessed.
Let us all hope and pray that your holiday from being exposed by
me, will remove the scum from your mind, and you will gain some
enlightenment as to the direction that humanity should take. Not
that of hate... but that of equality...understanding... and rejection
of those aspects of our nature which are destructive to our own
existence.
I would suggest while you are on whatever hiatus you intend to
take from AADP, that you try to gain control of your very
obvious obsessive nature -- perhaps a course similar to this
might help --
http://users.rcn.com/chicagobuddha/chicagobuddha/instruction.html
Because the mind of the racist, anti-Semite, and bigot is like the pupil
of the eye. The more light you apply to it... the more it will contract.
Good luck to you...
PV
A Planet Visitor
>In article <MPG.19dd099e4...@news.t-online.de>, Clown wrote:
>> In article <oop3nv4lmrd27mbbn...@4ax.com>,
>> abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>>> On 24 Sep 2003 01:45:40 -0700, unimpre...@yahoo.com (Just passing by) wrote:
>>>
>>> >A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<knq1nv4kffhumtm0c...@4ax.com>...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> But the most disturbing
>>> >> comment he made... which suddenly became not so subtle, and which
>>> >> I believe he would have taken back if he could have... were these
>>> >> words -- "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner
>>> >> and declare Israel the 53 US-state?"
>>> >>
>>> >> Sound a bit 'bigoted' and 'anti-Semitic' to you?
>>> >
>>> >No, not in the slightest.
>>>
>>> Well, well, well. Another demonstration of your holocaust denial. You
>>> now argue that a "star" has no significance in respect to the holocaust!!!
>>
>> Well, aPV obviously would like to make a case that I, being a German, can
>> not use the word 'star' without referring to the IIIrd Reich's progroms.
>> But indeed, I can say "Star" without addressing this special meaning.
>>
>>> The U.S. flag uses Stars to represent the number of states within that
>>> Union of States.
>>
>> That's it.
>>
>> Klaun
>>
>><500 lines deleted>
>
>and we can all hear the resounding "crash" as PV comes tumbling to earth.
>
Hardly.. in the context in which that usage was offered... Claiming it to
BE 'the Star of Israel,' there is absolutely no doubt of the anti-Semitic
significance of that remark. Absolutely none. Anyone who would
deny that... is simply denying seeing ANY anti-Semitism ANYWHERE.
>Ouch! All we really need to do is is _ask_ if posters believe in the
>holocaust. Holocaust deniers never claim to be otherwise - else there
>would be no reason to deny the holocaust.
>
I don't believe I characterized Jürgen as a holocaust denier. I think he
most certainly believes the holocaust is factual, although he often insists
that being factual has no meaning in respect to him being a German.
As if it took place by creatures from Alpha Centauri having descended
for a few years to plague our species. I find a bit of denial... not in
respect to the FACT of the holocaust... but as to his belief that because
it was Germans, rather than creatures from Alpha Centauri, it makes no
difference as to the historical burden he must carry. A historical burden
that I, as another human being, insist he should carry. A higher burden
than that expected from each of us, necessary to carry in respect to those
six million humans -mechanically, methodically and systematically
exterminated. Just as I expect I must carry a burden of systematic slavery
that existed in the U.S., well before my birth. And I would not object to
any person stating that as an American I have a higher obligation to
oppose racism... just as I state that as a German, Jürgen has a higher
obligation to oppose anti-Semitism. Certainly in those actions that he
commits. And it WAS HE, and not some creature from Alpha Centauri,
who suggested the use of a 'star' on the U.S. Flag, symbolizing the Jew.
Regardless of how anyone would try to sanitize his meaning, as our
dialog was well-developed as Jew vs. Palestinian in the Middle East.
I will not quibble over this point, since I sense a denial in every effort to
'defend' Jürgen in his use of that "star," given that I have stated quite clearly
that I know he has no PERSONAL responsibility to the holocaust.
I am speaking to anti-Semitism, -- One who is hostile or opposed to the
Jews -- rather than holocaust denial. Something I found quite clearly
intended in his characterization of a "star" on the U.S. Flag. If I wanted to
speak of holocaust denial, which I do not see in Jürgen's comment, I
could refer to --
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/
http://www.holocaustcenter.org/Holocaust/holocaustbadges.shtml
And literally tens of thousands of other resources.
What I do claim... and claim most emphatically, is that Jürgen and
I were engaged in a very deadly serious dialog, regarding the
EXISTENCE of the State of Israel, which he claimed had no
legal meaning, that the land that Israel now sits on is occupied
Palestinian land, which will ETERNALLY be Palestinian, and
that the Jew has no place there. I sensed his meaning was a
new diaspora of the Jews from that land, and he really didn't
give a shit WHAT happened to them. He asserted that the
U.S. was the ONLY country keeping the Jews on that
'eternal Palestinian Land.' In that CONTEXT... given that I
already sensed an overwhelming 'smell of anti-Semitism,'
he 'placed a star on the U.S. Flag.' Anyone, who denies a
connection to the Jews, Germany, the holocaust and anti-Semitism
with the idea of placing a star on the U.S. Flag, is either
unaware that there WERE stars placed on Jews, identifying
them as sub-humans during that period of time, or is in
denial as to the vast implication behind his words. You see,
Jürgen had already in that dialog, contended that the U.S. was
'run by Jews,' who controlled U.S. policy toward Israel.
Keep in mind that my following behavior to his comment,
can in no way be considered 'inappropriate' or over-reacting.
My response was measured and denied anger... but only
sadness that a German would make such a characterization.
My words in direct response to his comment were -- "I'm more
saddened than angry over such an outburst." See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=2Osf9.1792%24R7.29946%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
As I reread that post of mine, I find it well-documented,
well-ordered, and far from the hysteria that seemed to
predominate Jürgen's typically emotional style.
I would hope and pray that you do not claim I am being PC here,
Mr. D.
PV
A Planet Visitor
>In article <oop3nv4lmrd27mbbn...@4ax.com>,
>abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>> On 24 Sep 2003 01:45:40 -0700, unimpre...@yahoo.com (Just passing by) wrote:
>>
>> >A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<knq1nv4kffhumtm0c...@4ax.com>...
>> >
>> >
>> >> But the most disturbing
>> >> comment he made... which suddenly became not so subtle, and which
>> >> I believe he would have taken back if he could have... were these
>> >> words -- "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner
>> >> and declare Israel the 53 US-state?"
>> >>
>> >> Sound a bit 'bigoted' and 'anti-Semitic' to you?
>> >
>> >No, not in the slightest.
>>
>> Well, well, well. Another demonstration of your holocaust denial. You
>> now argue that a "star" has no significance in respect to the holocaust!!!
>
>Well, aPV obviously would like to make a case that I, being a German, can
>not use the word 'star' without referring to the IIIrd Reich's progroms.
>But indeed, I can say "Star" without addressing this special meaning.
>
Certainly not in the context in which it was used. Absolutely. The
dialog in place was in respect to the Jews vs. Palestinians in the
Middle East. You well know that. And your stand was that the
Jews had no legal right to the State of Israel, that it was eternally
Palestinian land stolen from them. You well know that. Further,
your argument was that the U.S. was dominated by a Jewish
influence which was all that kept Israel in existence. You well
know that. I will put this to you bluntly... I could have very well
demonstrated the same destructive method you used, by referring
to a certain symbol being placed on the German banner. I did not
do so... which makes me far, far morally superior to you.
You, however, found it necessary to use that "star" as a clear
indication that the U.S. was dominated by a Jewish Influence.
Thus... that "star" SYMBOLIZED the Jew to you, in respect
to that Jewish influence you see in U.S. Foreign Policy. That
you cannot 'connect the dots,' in respect to your comment, is
not that you are too stupid to do so... but merely that you are
now trying to be too deceptive to admit it was so.
>> The U.S. flag uses Stars to represent the number of states within that
>> Union of States.
>
>That's it.
>
As it also represented each Jew in Germany not that long ago. See --
http://www.holocaustcenter.org/Holocaust/holocaustbadges.shtml
Does that appear to be the German language to you? What
"star" is presently on the Israeli banner, that you wished transposed
to the U.S. Banner? It looks quite familar to that shown in the
URL I provided, except for color and German words. See --
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/flags/is-flag.html
The same "star" you wish transposed to the U.S. Banner.
I would suggest you leave this subject drop gracefully, Jürgen, since
as I've promised others before... it can only become more ugly...
and will not end neatly. Because given the tenor of the other
comments and threads that are taking place... I am not necessarily
in a forgiving mood. This is not a subject that can be treated lightly,
and I will not accept any disrespect or denial of any sort about that
subject. Not in the slightest.
PV
>Klaun
>
><500 lines deleted>
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:18:45 +0200, Clown <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> >In article <oop3nv4lmrd27mbbn...@4ax.com>,
> >abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
> >> On 24 Sep 2003 01:45:40 -0700, unimpre...@yahoo.com (Just passing by) wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> But the most disturbing
> >> >> comment he made... which suddenly became not so subtle, and which
> >> >> I believe he would have taken back if he could have... were these
> >> >> words -- "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner
> >> >> and declare Israel the 53 US-state?"
> >> >>
> >> >> Sound a bit 'bigoted' and 'anti-Semitic' to you?
> >> >
> >> >No, not in the slightest.
> >>
> >> Well, well, well. Another demonstration of your holocaust denial. You
> >> now argue that a "star" has no significance in respect to the holocaust!!!
> >
> >Well, aPV obviously would like to make a case that I, being a German, can
> >not use the word 'star' without referring to the IIIrd Reich's progroms.
> >But indeed, I can say "Star" without addressing this special meaning.
> >
> Certainly not in the context in which it was used. Absolutely.
You may believe it or not - I can use the word Ｔtar' without referring
to the Third Reich - even if the topic is Israel.
> ... That
> you cannot 'connect the dots,' in respect to your comment, is
> not that you are too stupid to do so... but merely that you are
> now trying to be too deceptive to admit it was so.
See - I formed the phrases, and I know what I meant. I surely do not need
anyone to tell me what I meant. Period.
Klaun
Clown
> And I would not object to
> any person stating that as an American I have a higher obligation to
> oppose racism... just as I state that as a German, Jürgen has a higher
> obligation to oppose anti-Semitism. .....
What a strange hypothesis.
> I will not quibble over this point, since I sense a denial in every effort to
> 'defend' Jürgen in his use of that "star," given that I have stated quite clearly
> that I know he has no PERSONAL responsibility to the holocaust.
Ah...I see. No PERSONAL responsibility. Now what a responsibility is it
which I should bear?
> What I do claim... and claim most emphatically, is that Jürgen and
> I were engaged in a very deadly serious dialog, regarding the
> EXISTENCE of the State of Israel, which he claimed had no
> legal meaning, that the land that Israel now sits on is occupied
> Palestinian land, which will ETERNALLY be Palestinian, and
> that the Jew has no place there. I sensed his meaning was a
> new diaspora of the Jews from that land, and he really didn't
> give a shit WHAT happened to them. He asserted that the
> U.S. was the ONLY country keeping the Jews on that
> 'eternal Palestinian Land.' In that CONTEXT... given that I
> already sensed an overwhelming 'smell of anti-Semitism,'
> he 'placed a star on the U.S. Flag.' .....
IIRC aPV's interpretation of my 'star'-phrase was not a consequence of
the dialog, but rather the *cause* of it.
Klaun
A Planet Visitor
>A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message news:<ucl7nvg7k4tt28m6j...@4ax.com>...
>
>
>> I actually
>> don't care about any apology to me..
>
>An apology? PV, if you thought that was an apology to you, then you
>misread it. I owe you no apology.
>
I never said you did. Nor did I in any way find it an apology to
anyone -- group... MLK... humanity... your Maker! It was
simply more of your whining, expecting others to presume
you have some limits to your unprincipled behavior. Limits
which simply do not exist with you. If you felt that insulting
my family would provide some sort of ADVANTAGE to you...
you would not for an instant hesitate. But you realize that
doing so would place you at a DISADVANTAGE... so you
proclaim how 'morally principled' you are, that you do not
use what would place you at a DISADVANTAGE! Pardon
me if I see nothing but a pitiful attempt to transform yourself
into something other than what you truly are. You have
this very evil way of trying to put words in my posts that
are not there... such as when YOU called the holocaust a
"ga**" in YOUR WORDS in --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309180626.14ac946f%40posting.google.com
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=21b1da28.0309190831.105ba1e9%40posting.google.com
What I did say, was that it was obvious you were
SUCKING up to me. For a very transparent personal
reason. Preening yourself before the group, presuming
that other readers will believe you actually have some
'morally principled limits.' Provided only for the benefit
of other readers in the group, with your typically ignorant
and conceited belief that it will 'buy you some credibility'
in AADP. Again -- exploiting your belief that the reader
is 'too stupid to see through you.'
It is manifestly obvious, as to your purpose, and just as
obvious why you needed to clip all of my words except
NINE in your reply, without the mention of a <clip> which
has become so famous in your other <clip unread> remarks.
You quickly realized how destructive those words were
to your hypocritical posturing, and needed to get rid of
them... without the perception that you actually were
getting rid of them. Because in my remarks, I certainly
recognized your pathetic begging before the group. Your
presuming you are 'morally offended' by attacks which
are directed on families of posters here, while at the same
moment you spew out poison which morally offends
every reasoning human. Your entire post demonstrated
exactly how big a phoney you are. Phoney..phoney..phoney...
>That statement was simply to confirm that I have no animosity to any
>member of your family because there is no guilt by association.
Why should I possibly care HOW you 'feel' about members of
my family? Get a life, JPB. And quit sucking up to the group,
begging them to believe you have some sort of 'moral principle,'
that has NEVER been in evidence here. You could more easily
claim you have just given birth to quadruplets, than claim you
have some sort of 'moral principle.'
> But
>YOU? Let me say again that, apart from insults to your family, I do
>not condemn anything that any poster here has ever posted against you.
>
Once again... do you REALLY think I care WHAT you think
about those you suck up to... expecting to find 'friends' in them?
Don't flatter yourself? You're an obsessive fruitcake... and
begging the group to accept that you have some 'moral principle,'
should be humiliating for you. Except you lack the 'humiliation
emotion.' As shown by your believing you are not humiliating
yourself in front of the group right now. Why don't you beg
them to _vote_ for any sign of your 'moral principle'?
>I will keep this short by reminding you to read my latest post in the
>"PV the stalker" thread and, with that in mind, to consider the very
>final sentence you wrote in that oft quoted post of yours from your
>second day of posting here back in April 2000.
>
Unlike you.. I read all of your words... right before retching
over them. You read none of mine...using <clip unread>, but
then go into those 'mindless drivel' comments. If you had ever
read my words... you would find that I've suggested you just
once 'weep for the victim.' But you <clip unread> and call
it unsolicited, intrusive, and offensive "spam." Remember? --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/The_victims.htm
>Two days ago, in that stalking attempt, you removed the boundary that
>previously we had both recognised. In doing so you gave me the excuse
>I needed to take this to a new level.
You evil shit...there are no 'boundaries' when it comes
to exposing your racism. Nor are there any in your
attempts at character assassination, in your obsession
with the 'Great White Whale.'
But I welcome you taking it to a 'new level.' Since I
believe that was my purpose. Given that you always
expose another layer of your evil each time... exposing
in turn your racism, anti-Semitism, holocaust denial,
Neo-Nazism, and bigotry... each time you go to a
'new level.'
There just do not seem to be many 'evil mountains' left
for you to climb, however. Although I do believe the next
step from you, will be to follow those abolitionists who
have expressed a wish to MURDER me. Such as
Ol' Racist Nev
spike
enigmacat
The Nameless One (along with all other retentionists)
And a few other, who have implied it... without actually
stating it directly.
Get in line, JPB... Next stop... stating you wish to
murder me... or put me down...or shoot me... or
rip me to shreds as the cat rips the sparrow to shreds.
Given that you have stated -- "However much I agree
with the attacks Desmond and Neville have made on
you (and I certainly do)..." it would appear you agree
with my being murdered by them.
How very 'morally principled' you are. You will not
'insult my family,' but you agree with those who have
wished to murder me. Them stating they 'wish' to
murder my family... well... that's a 'no no,' for your
'moral principles,' and you object to them stating such
a 'wish.' But as long as they 'wish' only for MY
murder...well... that fits your agreement.
I will remind you, from time to time, of your 'moral
principles' in agreeing with those who have stated in
these pages that they would murder me. Or how you
claimed I was bigoted because I had criticized ONE
SINGLE GERMAN, about a clear anti-Semitic comment,
while in that same post, in your hysterical bigotry, you
attacked two entire nations... every citizen of those
two nations...without exception. That's bigotry, JPB.
Criticizing ONE PERSON for their specific remark
cannot be claimed as bigotry. It is again self-swallowing
logic that you are so fond of. Since if criticizing ONE
PERSON is bigotry, then that person could say the
most bigoted comments imaginable, and never be
criticized for doing so, because it would be presumed
as bigotry if HE was called a bigot. Nor can that
person HIDE behind the circumstances of his birth
to argue that it IS bigotry to attack him personally.
JPB.. phoney
JPB.. phoney
JPB.. phoney
PV
A Planet Visitor
>In article <32r9nv006cul8kgn0...@4ax.com>,
>abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:18:45 +0200, Clown <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <oop3nv4lmrd27mbbn...@4ax.com>,
>> >abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>> >> On 24 Sep 2003 01:45:40 -0700, unimpre...@yahoo.com (Just passing by) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> But the most disturbing
>> >> >> comment he made... which suddenly became not so subtle, and which
>> >> >> I believe he would have taken back if he could have... were these
>> >> >> words -- "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner
>> >> >> and declare Israel the 53 US-state?"
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sound a bit 'bigoted' and 'anti-Semitic' to you?
>> >> >
>> >> >No, not in the slightest.
>> >>
>> >> Well, well, well. Another demonstration of your holocaust denial. You
>> >> now argue that a "star" has no significance in respect to the holocaust!!!
>> >
>> >Well, aPV obviously would like to make a case that I, being a German, can
>> >not use the word 'star' without referring to the IIIrd Reich's progroms.
>> >But indeed, I can say "Star" without addressing this special meaning.
>> >
>> Certainly not in the context in which it was used. Absolutely.
>
>You may believe it or not - I can use the word ‚star' without referring
>to the Third Reich - even if the topic is Israel.
>
Not without my remarking that doing so is an anti-Semitic comment.
Whether you believe it or not. The 'star,' Jürgen, has significance
to the JEWS... as much as this thought might disturb you. It was
not a 'symbol' placed on Germans during the euphemistically used
"Third Reich," as if it is simply a time period between the 'Second'
and 'Fourth' Reich. Call it what it was -- the Nazi era. It was a
symbol placed on Jews. And given your argument that U.S. Foreign
Policy was 'dominated' by Jews, when you commented on placing
that "star" on the U.S. 'banner,' it was your attempt to place the
'symbol for the Jews' on that 'banner.' Regardless of how you
would now try to excuse it.
Given that particular dialog, that particular meaning, and the fact that
you ARE German, your remark was obviously inexcusable. And it
was most certainly anti-Semitic in the exact meaning of anti-Semitic --
One who is hostile or opposed to the Jews -- That meaning was clear
to me. Even without that particular comment, and even without your
being a German. But I would not have mentioned that I observed
anti-Semitism in your remarks in that thread... UNTIL you very
clearly exposed it with that particular comment. And all the pieces
fell into place, rather obviously.
Nor is this the first time I have seen you not in 'holocaust denial,' but
in 'Jürgen denial.' Which translates to your efforts to make it German
denial. I do not believe more than a handsful of Germans do not feel
this greater burden I speak of... thus my comment does not reflect on
Germans... but on you... as a German. I will relate an incident that
happened to me personally, so you will hopefully understand that I
find almost every German well aware of that burden I speak of.
Because it is somewhat lengthy, I will simply put in up in a URL,
and remove it in a few days, so this post does not become excessively
lengthy. Pardon my very rusty German, having little opportunity to
use it in the past ten years. See --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/Gaststube.htm
In fact, I once remarked that it was "no longer your burden as a German."
But I was doing so, not because I really felt it was not.... but because I did
not want you to feel as if I was insulting you personally. Since it IS your
burden... simply because you are a German.
I also took a look at all your comments regarding the holocaust since you
first posted, and came up with 25 results... most of them because
others had used that particular word. Quite a few of those 25 posts
with me. Since I am not afraid to confront this issue, that others would
try to hide from using Godwin's Law. You seem to have difficulty
using the word 'holocaust.' Although you once ADMITTED to that
burden I have spoken of ... in these words of yours -- "Particularly I as
a German have to live with the history of the Holocaust, true, true."
That is one of the very few comments I have seen from you that
acknowledges that history. But now you seem to deny that being
a German, makes you any different from anyone else in respect to
the burden humanity carries with the holocaust. Or would you
claim that humanity itself carries no burden over six million systematically
murdered Jews?
And speaking of six million murdered Jews... I found this other comment
between you and I -- I recall my speaking of the six million shoes of the
holocaust. With my words -- "Europe owes the Jew 6 million shoes that
lie in the crucibles of holocaust museums around the world. But rather
than accept that 'debt' they worry about where their next drop of oil......"
Then...you responded with yet another of your thoroughly insensitive remarks
which TOTALLY IGNORED those words -- and instead rushed hysterically
into EXCUSES and DENIALS... totally ignoring the thrust of my words,
with your reply of -- "[Europe engages in alternate, renewable energy-resources
plus energetically economical technics, last not least in view of Kyoto, and will so
step by step reduce the dependence of oil.]"
Turning my words in respect to six million murdered, into an attack on those
who did not support Kyoto. As if there could POSSIBLY be any
comparison!!!
Further, I have of course, seen you try to compare the U.S. DP with the
holocaust. Which has already rather disgusted me. In spite of the fact
that I realize your entire posting style is peppered with 'emotional
outrage,' for various aspects, while I believe such 'emotional outrage' should
be saved for more worthy subjects than saving murderers. See
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=9ck0nb%24905%2405%241%40news.t-online.com
>> ... That
>> you cannot 'connect the dots,' in respect to your comment, is
>> not that you are too stupid to do so... but merely that you are
>> now trying to be too deceptive to admit it was so.
>
>See - I formed the phrases, and I know what I meant. I surely do not need
>anyone to tell me what I meant. Period.
>
Wrong!! You should always be prepared to have someone tell you
what THEY think you meant. It happens to me all the time. And I
will tell you what I THINK. I think you MEANT to imply a connection
of the Jew to that "star." I think you MEANT to imply with that "star"
that the U.S. was dominated by a "Jewish" influence. I think you
MEANT that as a clear expression of hostility or opposition to the
Jews. And reaching that point... such an expression IS -- by definition --
An anti-Semitic sentiment. Given that you are a German... with the
very clear connection of the "star" to a Jew for a German, it is
impossible for me to reconcile any other possibility than that to your
comment. It is impossible for me to believe that YOU, as a German,
felt your use of that "star" and the connection of a "star" to a Jew
for a German, did not sink into your head when you used it. I
do not believe you are that unaware of it's significance for a German...
and I am absolutely sure that I am not naive enough to accept the
idea that, as a German, you are unaware of such a connection.
I really need to ask -- very bluntly -- Do you personally hate the
Jews? If not... what do you believe should be the future of the
Jew in Israel? Should there even BE a 'legal future' for the State
of Israel?
Finally, I'll tell you this clearly... I do not appreciate being called a bigot,
by your bigoted friend, JPB, because I found YOU in particular, and
most certainly not all Germans, but YOU in particular -- one human,
one German -- to have made an anti-Semitic remark. The condition
of your birth does not PROTECT you from personally being seen as
having anti-Semitic sentiments. You should 'straighten out,' your friend
as to what a bigot is. Because YOU IN PARTICULAR cannot HIDE
behind the fact you are a German, presuming it protects you from others
finding you have made an anti-Semitic remark. Under the absurd idea that
finding YOU IN PARTICULAR to have made such a remark means
I am bigoted toward all Germans. Which could not be further from my
true feelings..
PV
>Klaun
A Planet Visitor
>PV:
>
>
>> And I would not object to
>> any person stating that as an American I have a higher obligation to
>> oppose racism... just as I state that as a German, Jürgen has a higher
>> obligation to oppose anti-Semitism. .....
>
>What a strange hypothesis.
>
It is rather a given that you would find it so. Being blind to your
own obligation.
>
>> I will not quibble over this point, since I sense a denial in every effort to
>> 'defend' Jürgen in his use of that "star," given that I have stated quite clearly
>> that I know he has no PERSONAL responsibility to the holocaust.
>
>Ah...I see. No PERSONAL responsibility. Now what a responsibility is it
>which I should bear?
>
The responsibility of your birth, and the fact that you exist in
a country, and are a citizen of a country with a shameful past.
That past, just as slavery is the shameful past of the U.S.
demands that we be more aware of that past, and hold ourselves
to a higher standard to reject that past. If WE do not do it,
it makes it easier for others to not do it. I feel such an
obligation to combat racism. I can only feel sorry for you,
if you do not feel a higher obligation to combat anti-Semitism.
And in a sense, I feel sorry for your 'kinsmen' that I feel you
disgrace - if you do not hold yourself to that higher standard in
respect to anti-Semitism. Just as I feel every racist in the
U.S. disgraces me. You may do what you wish... I
certainly do not have, nor do I claim to have, any 'legal force' in
any respect, other than the 'legal right' to state what I believe.
If you fail to accept that burden that I feel you must bear...
I find that only reflects on you as a person. And is not
something I can do anything about, in respect to you as a person.
Except to remark on how I feel about you as that person.
>> What I do claim... and claim most emphatically, is that Jürgen and
>> I were engaged in a very deadly serious dialog, regarding the
>> EXISTENCE of the State of Israel, which he claimed had no
>> legal meaning, that the land that Israel now sits on is occupied
>> Palestinian land, which will ETERNALLY be Palestinian, and
>> that the Jew has no place there. I sensed his meaning was a
>> new diaspora of the Jews from that land, and he really didn't
>> give a shit WHAT happened to them. He asserted that the
>> U.S. was the ONLY country keeping the Jews on that
>> 'eternal Palestinian Land.' In that CONTEXT... given that I
>> already sensed an overwhelming 'smell of anti-Semitism,'
>> he 'placed a star on the U.S. Flag.' .....
>
>IIRC aPV's interpretation of my 'star'-phrase was not a consequence of
>the dialog, but rather the *cause* of it.
>
My comment, which prompted your outburst of hate for the
Jews, was this rather well-balanced remark, which caused
you to enter your typical realm of raving... since I feel my
comment was well-balanced on both sides -- My words --
"The U.S. has rightly condemned both sides in this conflict.
Demanding that Israeli forces quit Palestinian land, and
Palestinians quit murdering with terrorist attacks on shopping
malls."
I have always sensed that you hate the Jews. And feel,
despite you rather inadequate denials, that you fully
support terrorist acts by Palestinians on Jews, since
you certainly became hysterical when I mentioned
them as source of trouble in the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict. And it may very well be that the "cause" of
that dialog, was your anti-Semitic comment, to my
remark, which included a vast clipping of my comment.
However, my response to your anti-Semitic
comment was -- "I'm more saddened than angry over
such an outburst." -- Which was far from as hysterical
as yours was, yet simply inflamed you more, and
demonstrated how you truly oppose the existence of the
Jew in the Middle East. Which makes me wonder what
you DO support doing with the Jew? Making them
servants to the Palestinians after that land you feel
is 'eternally Palestinian land,' is returned to the Palestinian?
Or do you suggest a new diaspora? Or do you simply
- not care? That dialog continued along a disturbing
path, as far as I'm concerned, which included your
ridiculous and equally anti-Semitic comment that "Israel is
factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to the
Palestinians." Once again.. you presume YOU are the
LAW. Once again... you presume YOU are God.
Once again... you take the 'side' of the U.N. when
its resolutions match YOUR opinion, but argue those
resolutions are MEANINGLESS when they do not
match your opinion. Not only can you not see
anti-Semitism in yourself... you apparently cannot see
the hypocrite in you, as well.
PV
>
>Klaun
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
From above: You may believe it or not - I can use the word 'star' without
referring to the Third Reich - even if the topic is Israel.
> It was
> not a 'symbol' placed on Germans during the euphemistically used
> "Third Reich," as if it is simply a time period between the 'Second'
> and 'Fourth' Reich. Call it what it was -- the Nazi era. It was a
> symbol placed on Jews. And given your argument that U.S. Foreign
> Policy was 'dominated' by Jews, when you commented on placing
> that "star" on the U.S. 'banner,' it was your attempt to place the
> 'symbol for the Jews' on that 'banner.' Regardless of how you
> would now try to excuse it.
I try to excuse nothing, and I do not owe any apology, to no one.
> .... I do not believe more than a handsful of Germans do not feel
> this greater burden I speak of... thus my comment does not reflect on
> Germans... but on you... as a German. I will relate an incident that
> happened to me personally, so you will hopefully understand that I
> find almost every German well aware of that burden I speak of.
> Because it is somewhat lengthy, I will simply put in up in a URL,
> and remove it in a few days, so this post does not become excessively
> lengthy. Pardon my very rusty German, having little opportunity to
> use it in the past ten years. See --
> http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/Gaststube.htm
>
> In fact, I once remarked that it was "no longer your burden as a German."
> But I was doing so, not because I really felt it was not.... but because I did
> not want you to feel as if I was insulting you personally. Since it IS your
> burden... simply because you are a German.
>
OK, then. Finally we arrived at what actually drives you. Not my thoughts
and perceceptions are the root of your critics, but rather the plain fact
that was born in Germany as a child of German parents. Thanks, that's
enough, Meister.
> I also took a look at all your comments regarding the holocaust since you
> first posted, and came up with 25 results... most of them because
> others had used that particular word. Quite a few of those 25 posts
> with me. Since I am not afraid to confront this issue, that others would
> try to hide from using Godwin's Law. You seem to have difficulty
> using the word 'holocaust.' Although you once ADMITTED to that
> burden I have spoken of ... in these words of yours -- "Particularly I as
> a German have to live with the history of the Holocaust, true, true."
> That is one of the very few comments I have seen from you that
> acknowledges that history. But now you seem to deny that being
> a German, makes you any different from anyone else in respect to
> the burden humanity carries with the holocaust. Or would you
> claim that humanity itself carries no burden over six million systematically
> murdered Jews?
What now - is it humanity or is it the German nation who carries that
burden?
>
> And speaking of six million murdered Jews... I found this other comment
> between you and I -- I recall my speaking of the six million shoes of the
> holocaust. With my words -- "Europe owes the Jew 6 million shoes that
> lie in the crucibles of holocaust museums around the world. But rather
> than accept that 'debt' they worry about where their next drop of oil......"
> Then...you responded with yet another of your thoroughly insensitive remarks
> which TOTALLY IGNORED those words -- and instead rushed hysterically
> into EXCUSES and DENIALS... totally ignoring the thrust of my words,
> with your reply of -- "[Europe engages in alternate, renewable energy-resources
> plus energetically economical technics, last not least in view of Kyoto, and will so
> step by step reduce the dependence of oil.]"
>
> Turning my words in respect to six million murdered, into an attack on those
> who did not support Kyoto. As if there could POSSIBLY be any
> comparison!!!
Well, Meister, you made an accusation of Europe's concern about resources
which are important to contemporary life, and you demanded inherently
that we should ignore economic necessities and show an all-time-humility
by sanctifying any action of Israel and Sharon, regardless what it is.
The connection between oil and the holocaust was introduced by you, Sir,
not me. So my answer is: It are European nations who make effords to come
to an advanced responsibility in respect to the handling of the world's
resources - not the United States.
> >See - I formed the phrases, and I know what I meant. I surely do not need
> >anyone to tell me what I meant. Period.
> >
> Wrong!!
My mind is my mind and not yours. Thus, if there lies interpretatory
bandwith in any of my phrases then I am the instance to clear up the
exact meaning, and not you.
> You should always be prepared to have someone tell you
> what THEY think you meant. It happens to me all the time.
> I think you MEANT to imply with that "star" that the U.S. was dominated by a
> "Jewish" influence.
You think simply wrong.
> I really need to ask -- very bluntly -- Do you personally hate the
> Jews? If not... what do you believe should be the future of the
> Jew in Israel? Should there even BE a 'legal future' for the State
> of Israel?
Well, you did search for my comments in the archive. Why don't you simply
read them? I expressed *REPEATEDLY*, *EXACTLY* and *UNMISUNDERSTANDABLY*
what IMHO should be the future of the State Israel.
As to your question "Do you personally hate the Jews?" - why should I?
Why exactly should I hate or love the Jews more or less than any other
people? I see no reason.
>
> Finally, I'll tell you this clearly... I do not appreciate being called a bigot,
> by your bigoted friend, JPB, because I found YOU in particular, and
> most certainly not all Germans, but YOU in particular -- one human,
> one German -- to have made an anti-Semitic remark. The condition
> of your birth does not PROTECT you from personally being seen as
> having anti-Semitic sentiments. You should 'straighten out,' your friend
> as to what a bigot is. Because YOU IN PARTICULAR cannot HIDE
> behind the fact you are a German, presuming it protects you from others
> finding you have made an anti-Semitic remark. Under the absurd idea that
> finding YOU IN PARTICULAR to have made such a remark means
> I am bigoted toward all Germans. Which could not be further from my
> true feelings..
aPV, from above: "In fact, I once remarked that it was "no longer your
burden as a German." But I was doing so, not because I really felt it was
not.... but because I did not want you to feel as if I was insulting you
personally. Since it IS your burden... simply because you are a German"
Klaun
>
Clown
> >> I were engaged in a very deadly serious dialog, regarding the
> >> EXISTENCE of the State of Israel, which he claimed had no
> >> legal meaning, that the land that Israel now sits on is occupied
> >> Palestinian land, which will ETERNALLY be Palestinian, and
> >> that the Jew has no place there.
Well, it is totally senseless to discuss with you. I expressed exactly
that Israel became indispensable over the decades - thus "that the Jew
has no place there" as being what I did express is simply a lie.
(I note that aPV has rather peculiar a grasp of "eternal". Israel does
exist 55 years - hence huge a part of the deported Palestinian generation
are still alive. All Sharon has to do is to continue occupation and to
strenghten and to expand settlement, and 50 years later there will be
according to aPV a right to own Gaza, the West Banks and any more.)
Klaun
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
> On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:23:49 +0200, Clown <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> >PV:
> >
> >
> >> And I would not object to
> >> any person stating that as an American I have a higher obligation to
> >> oppose racism... just as I state that as a German, Jürgen has a higher
> >> obligation to oppose anti-Semitism. .....
> >
> >What a strange hypothesis.
> >
> It is rather a given that you would find it so. Being blind to your
> own obligation.
> >
> >> I will not quibble over this point, since I sense a denial in every
effort to
> >> 'defend' Jürgen in his use of that "star," given that I have stated
quite clearly
> >> that I know he has no PERSONAL responsibility to the holocaust.
> >
> >Ah...I see. No PERSONAL responsibility. Now what a responsibility is it
> >which I should bear?
> >
> The responsibility of your birth,
LOL
and the fact that you exist in
> a country,
LOL
and are a citizen of a country with a shameful past.
LOL
> That past, just as slavery is the shameful past of the U.S.
> demands that we be more aware of that past, and hold ourselves
> to a higher standard to reject that past. If WE do not do it,
> it makes it easier for others to not do it. I feel such an
> obligation to combat racism. I can only feel sorry for you,
> if you do not feel a higher obligation to combat anti-Semitism.
Which is not to be confused with anti-Zionism.
> And in a sense, I feel sorry for your 'kinsmen'
Which means 'blood' relatives!
that I feel you
> disgrace - if you do not hold yourself to that higher standard in
> respect to anti-Semitism.
He has such standards - you merely refuse to recognise
them,
That's the only way to be well balanced - what a silly
aside.
-- My words --
> "The U.S. has rightly condemned both sides in this conflict.
> Demanding that Israeli forces quit Palestinian land, and
> Palestinians quit murdering with terrorist attacks on shopping
> malls."
>
> I have always sensed that you hate the Jews.
Your senses are letting you down again, PV. I regard
this insult to Jurgen as the equivalent of JPB's
assertion that you are a fake anti-racist. You
must accept that criticism of Israel does not
equate to criticism of Jews. If you don't so accept
such a proposition your views on what defines
a anti-Semite have no value.
A Planet Visitor
Here comes the denial from Jürgen --
>From above: You may believe it or not - I can use the word 'star' without
>referring to the Third Reich - even if the topic is Israel.
>
Of course you can... this is Usenet, Jürgen! You can make
any raving accusation, or offer any lie you wish. How many are
the times I have witnessed it here before? From even you,
in respect to the U.S. DP. While most of those accusations and
lies come from those whose company you keep. I am limited
only to recognizing that you have offered such a lie. Again -- See --
http://www.holocaustcenter.org/Holocaust/holocaustbadges.shtml
There is a world of difference between 'can' and 'should.'
Obviously I do not have the ability to say 'cannot' in respect
to your disrespect toward both the Jews and the U.S., since
it is logically and physically impossible for me to impose that
on you. But I can certainly say 'should not.' And that is what
I am saying. You 'should not' demonstrate anti-Semitism.
More certainly a greater 'should not' because of the circumstances
of your birth.
Regardless of your denials... you are a slave to the circumstances
of your birth, which you cannot alter in any way. And your behavior,
given those undeniable circumstances reveals your CHARACTER
to OTHERS, which should still more reveal you to yourself. Given
that you are in denial in respect to yourself, I can only point out
that you are in such denial. And your denials of 'being in denial,'
only place you more certainly in such denial in my opinion.
There are things that can NEVER be changed, Jürgen...
the past... and the circumstances of your birth... for two examples.
Those two are intertwined and simply cannot be separated. They
form the substance that determines your CHARACTER, or
lack of character, Jürgen. While CHARACTER is the axis on
which your existence as a human turns. In denial of the past...
and the circumstances of your birth -- your character is put
to the test. We are all put to the test in bonding the past to
the circumstances of our birth. I find you fail that test. Plain
and simple.
Don't you think that I could say far, far more destructive words
about Germany, and its past connection to the Jews, than you
have said about the U.S. and your presumed connection of U.S.
foreign policy to the Jews? I state categorically... that the fact I
have not done so demonstrates my character is based on a more
moral foundation than your character. There is no doubt whatsoever
about that in my mind.
I have bent over backwards, in the hope that you would at the
least quietly drop this subject... I have given you ample opportunities
to do so. You only intend to dig yourself even deeper. You have
plainly refused to admit that a "star" used in the context you used it,
has any significance whatsoever to a German, a Jew, or a
human being. This is not only grotesquely unrealistic, but
monstrously insulting. It is reprehensible on your part to continue
in such an obvious denial. The more you deny, the more you
insult the meaning of a "star" used by a German, in the context
in which you used it. There is absolutely no doubt that you
meant it in the context of a presumed 'Jewish influence,' on
U.S. policy in the Middle-East.
>> It was
>> not a 'symbol' placed on Germans during the euphemistically used
>> "Third Reich," as if it is simply a time period between the 'Second'
>> and 'Fourth' Reich. Call it what it was -- the Nazi era. It was a
>> symbol placed on Jews. And given your argument that U.S. Foreign
>> Policy was 'dominated' by Jews, when you commented on placing
>> that "star" on the U.S. 'banner,' it was your attempt to place the
>> 'symbol for the Jews' on that 'banner.' Regardless of how you
>> would now try to excuse it.
>
>I try to excuse nothing, and I do not owe any apology, to no one.
>
That's rather self-evident. That's why I claim you are in denial.
You simply feel no responsibility to the rest of humanity, or even
to a Maker. Yet you concern yourself rather obsessively with
'pity' for murderers. While clearly you HAVE on MANY occasions
demanded that the murders they commit be EXCUSED, in the
sense of the DP.
I have often felt that your opposition to the DP, is not so much an
opposition to the concept of the DP itself, but more your expression
of anti-American sentiment. In effect USING the DP as a weapon.
Focused here on only that particular point in which you hope to find
agreement with other aspects of your anti-American sentiment.
Hoping those others who do oppose the DP will thus support your
actual true anti-American feelings. I also now, have much to reason
that your anti-American sentiment pivots totally on your presumption
that the U.S. is 'run by Jews,' and thus finds THAT, rather than the
U.S. use of the DP, as the root reason for your anti-American sentiment.
A disturbing thought. Don't you think... apart from you being a
German, that as a member of our species, and a part of humanity -
that you owe an apology for the holocaust... even if it is only to your
Maker?
>> .... I do not believe more than a handsful of Germans do not feel
>> this greater burden I speak of... thus my comment does not reflect on
>> Germans... but on you... as a German. I will relate an incident that
>> happened to me personally, so you will hopefully understand that I
>> find almost every German well aware of that burden I speak of.
>> Because it is somewhat lengthy, I will simply put in up in a URL,
>> and remove it in a few days, so this post does not become excessively
>> lengthy. Pardon my very rusty German, having little opportunity to
>> use it in the past ten years. See --
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/Gaststube.htm
>>
>> In fact, I once remarked that it was "no longer your burden as a German."
>> But I was doing so, not because I really felt it was not.... but because I did
>> not want you to feel as if I was insulting you personally. Since it IS your
>> burden... simply because you are a German.
>>
>
>OK, then. Finally we arrived at what actually drives you. Not my thoughts
>and perceceptions are the root of your critics, but rather the plain fact
>that was born in Germany as a child of German parents. Thanks, that's
>enough, Meister.
>
What I was trying to do... was relieve you of some of that burden. I posted
those words on Apr 26, 2001. While your insulting and anti-Semitic
use of a "star" was almost a year and a half later --Sep 9, 2002. This
only further demonstrates that my original feelings were to try and remove
any guilt you might feel in the circumstances of your birth, to better accept
that fact AT THAT TIME. At that point in AADP, I had not the slightest
belief that you actually HAD anti-Semitic feelings. Given that perception
on my part, at the time.. the perception that you HAD NO anti-semitism...
I felt any burden you might have in reference to the circumstances of your birth,
had been identified by you, and resolved internally in your view toward
the Jews. Follow along now === You are a German... you have a burden
as a German, a greater burden to oppose anti-Semitism than others.
If I see NO anti-Semitism in your comments... as I DID not see them
in April 2001, you have obviously, IN MY VIEW, resolved that burden,
and no longer have it as a German. This was the thrust of my words IN
APRIL 2001!!!
Obviously it was a comment, hoping to recognize that you were not
anti-Semitic, which was both unwarranted and misdirected. Because in the
intervening period you certainly proved that you felt insulted, as you do
now, by any belief that you should concern yourself whatsoever with the
Jews. They apparently are STILL non-persons to you. And the more
you protest in this dialog, the more certain I become that your anti-Semitic
comment has deeper roots than I ever imagined at that time. And I now
find that you have not resolved that burden, as I first imagined you had.
>> I also took a look at all your comments regarding the holocaust since you
>> first posted, and came up with 25 results... most of them because
>> others had used that particular word. Quite a few of those 25 posts
>> with me. Since I am not afraid to confront this issue, that others would
>> try to hide from using Godwin's Law. You seem to have difficulty
>> using the word 'holocaust.' Although you once ADMITTED to that
>> burden I have spoken of ... in these words of yours -- "Particularly I as
>> a German have to live with the history of the Holocaust, true, true."
>> That is one of the very few comments I have seen from you that
>> acknowledges that history. But now you seem to deny that being
>> a German, makes you any different from anyone else in respect to
>> the burden humanity carries with the holocaust. Or would you
>> claim that humanity itself carries no burden over six million systematically
>> murdered Jews?
>
>What now - is it humanity or is it the German nation who carries that
>burden?
>
We all carry the burden of the holocaust. Even the Jews, in some slight
respect, having sheepishly denied what was happening to them, rather than
raging - even in the certainty of their own murder in expressing that rage.
That psychological phenomenon has been examined over and over,
and is still not fully explainable.The Jews now fully recognize this fact --
and it WILL NOT happen to them again. Which is why the reactions
of Israel toward Palestinian terrorists is often recognized as over-reactions
by those external to the conflict. It is a certainty, that the Jews would
now fight on the beaches to the last person, before accepting any behavior
previously demonstrated in the holocaust. They will never again accept
a docile extermination. But that goes to the heart of what I mean. We
certainly cannot hold the Jews -- who were led to their own annihilation --
to the same burden that the rest of humanity carries for having passively
watched it happen or participated in it happening. Thus, by the same
token, we cannot hold the rest of humanity to the same burden that the
Germans have, having been the active, rather than the passive, participants
to that annihilation process.
Let me again be clear here... as to my feelings. The fact that you
are a German, but feel no greater sense of a burden toward
opposing anti-Semitism, than would a non-German... simply
suggests that you are in denial -- which holds a very clear
anti-Semitic meaning behind it to me. I have framed this in a number
of different ways... all hoping that you would understand that
you ARE a German... and that Germans DID methodically
and systematically murder six million Jews... simply BECAUSE
they were Jews. No other reason whatsoever. They were not
combatants... many would have even willingly fought against
the Soviet Union in a military capacity if they were permitted
to do so. That you feel no greater sense of OBLIGATION to
that fact --- An obligation which demands that you oppose
anti-Semitism more than most other non-Germans --- is insightful
to me... even if not to any other poster here. I see it as
anti-Semitic in intention. If you were passive in your arguments
in respect to the Jews... that would be one thing. But you
are actively antagonistic toward the Jew... and what you see
as 'the Jewish influence' in U.S. foreign policy. That is
totally unacceptable to me. If I were a German, I would
be even MORE incensed as to your posturing, which has a
distinctly anti-Jewish smell to it.
>>
>> And speaking of six million murdered Jews... I found this other comment
>> between you and I -- I recall my speaking of the six million shoes of the
>> holocaust. With my words -- "Europe owes the Jew 6 million shoes that
>> lie in the crucibles of holocaust museums around the world. But rather
>> than accept that 'debt' they worry about where their next drop of oil......"
>> Then...you responded with yet another of your thoroughly insensitive remarks
>> which TOTALLY IGNORED those words -- and instead rushed hysterically
>> into EXCUSES and DENIALS... totally ignoring the thrust of my words,
>> with your reply of -- "[Europe engages in alternate, renewable energy-resources
>> plus energetically economical technics, last not least in view of Kyoto, and will so
>> step by step reduce the dependence of oil.]"
>>
>> Turning my words in respect to six million murdered, into an attack on those
>> who did not support Kyoto. As if there could POSSIBLY be any
>> comparison!!!
>
>Well, Meister, you made an accusation of Europe's concern about resources
>which are important to contemporary life, and you demanded inherently
>that we should ignore economic necessities and show an all-time-humility
>by sanctifying any action of Israel and Sharon, regardless what it is.
>The connection between oil and the holocaust was introduced by you, Sir,
>not me.
And you ignored that connection totally. qed: You figure it out. However,
your use of the word "Meister," again has a distinct 'smell' to it. You
presume anyone who would recognize anti-Semitism in their
OPINION, is somehow posturing himself in a 'superior' attitude. And
you disdain ANYONE seeing anti-Semitism in their opinion... presuming
they are simply 'overreacting' and there is no such thing as 'anti-Semitism
in Germany.'
> So my answer is: It are European nations who make effords to come
>to an advanced responsibility in respect to the handling of the world's
>resources - not the United States.
>
Once again.. does any mention of the Jew appear there? I believe
not... yet I spoke of six million shoes... not of oil shoes... but of human
shoes. Might I point out that those six million Jews were most
CERTAINLY "the world's resources"? To a much greater extent
than any pathetic argument that Germany demonstrates 'oil conservation.'
Whatever happened to HUMAN CONSERVATION? I do believe
the United States has handled the HUMAN CONSERVATION
of the Jews, better than Europe has in the past. In fact, that's the
problem in your view... the U.S. has 'done too much for the Jews.'
That was the MEANING of your use of the "star" on the U.S.
Banner!
While I see the U.S., as providing a counter-balance to the
Israeli/Palestinian conflict, which actually keeps it from
becoming an even larger murderous field. In spite of the fact
that doing so naturally brings condemnation from those Arab
influences in the Middle East who 'hate the Jew,' simply as a
principle of the Jew's existence. See -
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/AntiSemitism.htm
And quite bluntly, I see Europe's thirst for oil as being much
behind the fact that European sentiments seem strongly
pro-Arab... even aside from the latent anti-Semitism I
fully recognize in Europe. Those two factors... Europe's
thirst for oil, and a latent anti-Semitism sentiment, lend
much credibility as to the reasons most Europeans stand
on the side of the Palestinians in that conflict. I take a
more reasoned approach, IMHO. Both sides could not
be more intractable, and unreasonable. And both sides
are led by a leadership which pits and encourages one
people against another people... ad infinitum.
However, lacking a U.S. role, as it presently exists in that
region, I believe that would do nothing but offer a more certain
path to an even greater catastrophe than is presently
occurring. The U.S. role keeps a leash on the Israelis,
as obvious as it is understood that such a leash has only
a limited effect on Israeli actions. While it also acts as
a deterrent to an elevated. more direct military attack on
Israel, regardless of how ineffective, or effective one might
view such a military attack on Israel. In an analogy --
The end result is the U.S. acts as a cork on the bottle of
some very poisonous potion. But necessarily absorbs the
pressure from that potion in acting in that role. Yet,
one should realize the consequences, if that cork were
not there to contain that poisonous potion.
>> >See - I formed the phrases, and I know what I meant. I surely do not need
>> >anyone to tell me what I meant. Period.
>> >
>> Wrong!!
>
>My mind is my mind and not yours. Thus, if there lies interpretatory
>bandwith in any of my phrases then I am the instance to clear up the
>exact meaning, and not you.
>
Not true at all.. You belong to humanity... as does your mind. "No
man is an island, entire of itself..." Donne, of course. I lay no claim
to your mind... but humanity does. And humanity speaks to six
million murdered humans. And your mind should speak to them
as well. And speak louder than most other minds...simply because
of the past... and the circumstances of your birth. In any case,
I don't care for your mind... or much of what's in it... finding nothing
of value inside that pleases me.. therefore, I lay no claim to it,
whatsoever.
>> You should always be prepared to have someone tell you
>> what THEY think you meant. It happens to me all the time.
>
>
>> I think you MEANT to imply with that "star" that the U.S. was dominated by a
>> "Jewish" influence.
>
>You think simply wrong.
>
Apparently YOU are trying to tell me MY mind. So I will
repeat YOUR words, in the context of my argument -- "My mind is
my mind and not yours." If you cannot now see the hypocrisy
you often offer here... I don't know how to further prove it to
you. You set one standard for others, but totally ignore that
same standard for yourself.
As with so many subjects that you approach... you approach
this with the belief that you may express any 'opinion,' and
everyone must accept it as somehow the 'voice of God.' While
the opinions of others, who might disagree with you, are simply
'wrong' because YOU SAY THEY ARE WRONG. But again...
you are not God.
>> I really need to ask -- very bluntly -- Do you personally hate the
>> Jews? If not... what do you believe should be the future of the
>> Jew in Israel? Should there even BE a 'legal future' for the State
>> of Israel?
>
>Well, you did search for my comments in the archive. Why don't you simply
>read them? I expressed *REPEATEDLY*, *EXACTLY* and *UNMISUNDERSTANDABLY*
>what IMHO should be the future of the State Israel.
>
Yeah... I believe it was something like -- Israel has no legal future...
now or ever... since it was stolen from the Palestinians who have eternal
ownership of the land now illegally occupied by the Jews -- Is that
about it?
>As to your question "Do you personally hate the Jews?" - why should I?
>Why exactly should I hate or love the Jews more or less than any other
>people? I see no reason.
>
You really DIDN'T answer the question, now... did you? You turned
my question into a question of your own, without answering. And the
answer from me to YOUR question is that you certainly SHOULD
NOT. But that says NOTHING about if you do... since we KNOW
that many DO 'hate the Jew,' for some very evil reasons, which
can never be answered with an argument of 'why should they?' Now,
perhaps we can return to MY QUESTION?
>>
>> Finally, I'll tell you this clearly... I do not appreciate being called a bigot,
>> by your bigoted friend, JPB, because I found YOU in particular, and
>> most certainly not all Germans, but YOU in particular -- one human,
>> one German -- to have made an anti-Semitic remark. The condition
>> of your birth does not PROTECT you from personally being seen as
>> having anti-Semitic sentiments. You should 'straighten out,' your friend
>> as to what a bigot is. Because YOU IN PARTICULAR cannot HIDE
>> behind the fact you are a German, presuming it protects you from others
>> finding you have made an anti-Semitic remark. Under the absurd idea that
>> finding YOU IN PARTICULAR to have made such a remark means
>> I am bigoted toward all Germans. Which could not be further from my
>> true feelings..
>
>aPV, from above: "In fact, I once remarked that it was "no longer your
>burden as a German." But I was doing so, not because I really felt it was
>not.... but because I did not want you to feel as if I was insulting you
>personally. Since it IS your burden... simply because you are a German"
>
A statement made by me in April 2001, almost a year and a half before
you provided any proof of an anti-Semitic feeling. Obviously, not
having expressed any such anti-Semitic posturing, you had no burden,
as far as I was concerned, in AADP. In fact, at that time, I had been
left with the impression that you were strongly against anti-Semitism,
which is what I EXPECT from a German. As with so many behavior
patterns we see in life.. you proved me wrong, and demonstrated a
clear anti-Semitic emotion. Look... I do not attack -- EVER
ATTACK- the nation Germany. I defend her every right to act as a
sovereign nation. She can rightfully oppose whatever She wishes.
Yet YOU... incessantly attack the U.S... as a NATION. What
gives you the RIGHT to place a "star" on the U.S. Flag? Don't you
believe that's a bigoted, even if not anti-Semitic comment? If you
have such a right, imagine what I could picture on the German banner?
And using YOUR argument you would be unable to characterize that
as any kind of bigotry in my doing so.
But I do not do so... because I am not a bigot, nor an anti-Semite.
Thus, I am morally superior to you. While you have some rather
fundamental moral flaws. IMHO.
PV
>
>Klaun
>
>
>
>>
A Planet Visitor
>> >> What I do claim... and claim most emphatically, is that Jürgen and
>> >> I were engaged in a very deadly serious dialog, regarding the
>> >> EXISTENCE of the State of Israel, which he claimed had no
>> >> legal meaning, that the land that Israel now sits on is occupied
>> >> Palestinian land, which will ETERNALLY be Palestinian, and
>> >> that the Jew has no place there.
>
>Well, it is totally senseless to discuss with you.
Not because I am unreasonable... but because YOU are unreasonable.
And a bit unstable, if I might observe.
> I expressed exactly
>that Israel became indispensable over the decades - thus "that the Jew
>has no place there" as being what I did express is simply a lie.
>
Oh, rubbish... You are the one who argued that Israel was 'eternally'
Palestinian with your common complaint that it was 'stolen' by the Jews.
Some of your comments --
1) "Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
the Palestinians"
2) "Sorry, but this is a general licence for occupation and land theft."
3) "reason why the Jews have been justified to expropriate the
Palestinians their land."
4) "I am awaiting your proper derivation of Israel's right to exist on
the ground from which the Palestinians had been driven away."
5) "but notably without forgetting that the land is factually an occupied."
6) "Why then do you support the totally unreflected support of Israel
by the US?"
7) "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner and declare
Israel the 53 US-state?"
Your 'hate for the Jews,' has been in evidence for some time now,
IMHO. But, you cannot come right out and express it... so you
need to use those pitifully weak characterizations of the Jews being
thieves who have stolen the land. And more importantly you need
to find a suitable scapegoat for that hate. So it appears you are
not DIRECTLY against the Jew. You find that pretext in the U.S.
You claim the U.S. is the one ACTUALLY 'killing the Palestinians'
and filling the role you KNOW is actually that 'hateful Jew.' Then
you argue that the U.S. Foreign Policy is controlled by the Jews.
You have no idea how bigoted those characterization are. Were
I to imply a contrary view to Germany's Foreign Policy your
outrage would be palpable. Then you connect the Jew to the U.S.
with your pathetic anti-Semitic use of the "star." But certainly,
you've let it 'slip out' in a few places... you've certainly obliquely
accused the Jew of being a thief. As shown in your comments
2) and 3), above.
You have certainly tried to characterize Americans and Jews within the
same 'class' as you 'defined' for others, in your typical God-like
pronouncements how PV classes humans -- "class-A (Americans, Jews),
class-B (Europeans) and class-C humans (Muslims)" -- Clearly
showing that YOU connect your anti-American sentiments directly
to your anti-Jewish sentiments.
>(I note that aPV has rather peculiar a grasp of "eternal". Israel does
>exist 55 years - hence huge a part of the deported Palestinian generation
>are still alive. All Sharon has to do is to continue occupation and to
>strenghten and to expand settlement, and 50 years later there will be
>according to aPV a right to own Gaza, the West Banks and any more.)
In fact, you are NOT in support of a Palestinian state which does NOT
include the decomposition of Israel and its incorporation into a greater
Palestinian State that absorbs Israel. Essentially trying to place the Jews
into a subordinate role in a no-longer existing Israel in the Middle East.
That is rather clear, since when I stated that I support a Palestinian State
coexisting side by side with Israel, you rejected any such idea with your
words from the past --
"Afew isolated islands in the desert. Such an "offer" you can put elsewhere, "
Which is exactly the same view as those extremists who will only accept
the disintegration of Israel into a Palestinians ruled territory which will
obviously result in the dispersion, if not a new attempt at the annihilation of
the Jew in the Middle East. I am still undecided as to whether you do not
CARE if that happens, or if you WISH it to happen.
Isn't that exactly why there will never be 'peace in the Middle East'? I
believe it is. The intransigence as to the existence of the Jews in the Middle
East.. The demand by some irrational factions (you among them) demanding
that Israel be absorbed into a 'Greater Palestine,' and the Jew left to play the
same role in 'Holocaust II.' This time, orchestrated by the Palestinians,
under the production and direction of various Arab extremists everywhere.
See --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/AntiSemitism.htm
Whether you like it or not, I will never support the U.S. permitting that
to happen, under ANY circumstances. Israel is there, and as long as I
have a vote in U.S. policy it will be there, independent and legal. Which
certainly does not imply that 'oil' has anything to do with that policy,
unlike the possibility that support for the Arabs has that as a core
reason.
While the Palestinian is just as entitled to the West Bank, the Gaza
strip and all land now under the control of the Palestinians, also as a
fully constituted legally existing sovereign nation. I will oppose any
effort by the Jews to occupy the lands I speak of as Palestinian land,
but I will never presume that the Palestinians have any right to the land
now constituted as the legal State of Israel. I categorically deplore
every instance of atrocities, that I well recognize have been committed
by Israel in the name of 'self-defense.' I categorically deplore every
instance of atrocities committed by Palestinian suicide bombers in
the name of
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/bomber.gif
Which is how I find YOU view the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
PV
>Klaun
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
> On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:34:25 +0200, Clown <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> >> >> What I do claim... and claim most emphatically, is that Jürgen and
> >> >> I were engaged in a very deadly serious dialog, regarding the
> >> >> EXISTENCE of the State of Israel, which he claimed had no
> >> >> legal meaning, that the land that Israel now sits on is occupied
> >> >> Palestinian land, which will ETERNALLY be Palestinian, and
> >> >> that the Jew has no place there.
> >
> >Well, it is totally senseless to discuss with you.
>
> Not because I am unreasonable... but because YOU are unreasonable.
> And a bit unstable, if I might observe.
>
> > I expressed exactly
> >that Israel became indispensable over the decades - thus "that the Jew
> >has no place there" as being what I did express is simply a lie.
> >
> Oh, rubbish... You are the one who argued that Israel was 'eternally'
> Palestinian with your common complaint that it was 'stolen' by the Jews.
> Some of your comments --
>
> 1) "Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
> the Palestinians"
>
> 2) "Sorry, but this is a general licence for occupation and land theft."
>
> 3) "reason why the Jews have been justified to expropriate the
> Palestinians their land."
>
> 4) "I am awaiting your proper derivation of Israel's right to exist on
> the ground from which the Palestinians had been driven away."
<..........>
>
Well, I am still awaiting your standpoint. When exactly is it justified
and when is it not justified to deport people from their homeland? If the
UN or the US or aPV say so, perhaps?
K.
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>
> There are things that can NEVER be changed, Jürgen...
> the past... and the circumstances of your birth... for two examples.
> Those two are intertwined and simply cannot be separated. They
> form the substance that determines your CHARACTER, or
> lack of character, Jürgen. While CHARACTER is the axis on
> which your existence as a human turns. In denial of the past...
> and the circumstances of your birth -- your character is put
> to the test. We are all put to the test in bonding the past to
> the circumstances of our birth. I find you fail that test. Plain
> and simple.
Ouch...now that hurts.
Tell me - have you really got nothing better to do that to examine
posters' characters by their usenet posts?
> There is absolutely no doubt that you
> meant it in the context of a presumed 'Jewish influence,' on
> U.S. policy in the Middle-East.
>
You know what? I start thinking that your ridiculous accusations are the
product of your very own estimation of the Jewish influence in the US.
Self-fulfilling-prophecy-like you are projecting your own suspicions on
my phraselette about the 'star', as if you could tone down your own
presentiments by firstly relating your own thought to anyone and secondly
condemning it.
> Yet you concern yourself rather obsessively with
> 'pity' for murderers. While clearly you HAVE on MANY occasions
> demanded that the murders they commit be EXCUSED, in the
> sense of the DP.
I said that you fail to make a meaningful difference who should deserve
the DP and who should deserve a lesser penalty. We discussed some neat
examples in this context, Meister.
>
> I have often felt that your opposition to the DP, is not so much an
> opposition to the concept of the DP itself, but more your expression
> of anti-American sentiment. In effect USING the DP as a weapon.
You guys are displaying sort of mercilessness which coerces any sensitive
being in opposition.
> Focused here on only that particular point in which you hope to find
> agreement with other aspects of your anti-American sentiment.
> Hoping those others who do oppose the DP will thus support your
> actual true anti-American feelings. I also now, have much to reason
> that your anti-American sentiment pivots totally on your presumption
> that the U.S. is 'run by Jews,' and thus finds THAT, rather than the
> U.S. use of the DP, as the root reason for your anti-American sentiment.
> A disturbing thought.
It would stand good to you to invest some thought concerning with the
real reasons fo anti-American sentiments. We have for instant right now
an American President who shifted the complete surplus left by Clinton
plus twice this sum to the accounts of his buddies, and now that the US
are factually bankrupt this President would like the Europeans and the UN
to continue the payments for his buddies - American companies should get
the lucrative orders for rebuilding Iraq, and we, the Europeans, should
pay them.
You actually showed and continue to show that an arrogance to the UN and
to anyone who opposed Bushes adventure that Anti-Americanism is the
purely logic consequence.
> Don't you think... apart from you being a
> German, that as a member of our species, and a part of humanity -
> that you owe an apology for the holocaust
Nice to see you back-rawing.
> ... even if it is only to your
> Maker?
Hmmmm.....so I should apologize to my maker for that he made me as I
am???
> >> In fact, I once remarked that it was "no longer your burden as a German."
> >> But I was doing so, not because I really felt it was not.... but because I did
> >> not want you to feel as if I was insulting you personally. Since it IS your
> >> burden... simply because you are a German.
> >>
> >
> >OK, then. Finally we arrived at what actually drives you. Not my thoughts
> >and perceceptions are the root of your critics, but rather the plain fact
> >that was born in Germany as a child of German parents. Thanks, that's
> >enough, Meister.
> >
> What I was trying to do... was relieve you of some of that burden.
I do not need your relief - thanks. You are of the opinion that I am
guilty of the Holocaust, because I am German. That is 'nuff said.
> ....... If you were passive in your arguments
> in respect to the Jews... that would be one thing. But you
> are actively antagonistic toward the Jew... <...> That is
> totally unacceptable to me.
You are still blurring the difference between Israel's policy and the
Jews. Put up any passage where I attacked the Jews - there is none. What
I attacked was systematic suppression of the Palestinians. A fact which
the US willingly do support, besides - even if you don't like this
recognition.
> >> >See - I formed the phrases, and I know what I meant. I surely do not need
> >> >anyone to tell me what I meant. Period.
> >> >
> >> Wrong!!
> >
> >My mind is my mind and not yours. Thus, if there lies interpretatory
> >bandwith in any of my phrases then I am the instance to clear up the
> >exact meaning, and not you.
> >
> Not true at all.. You belong to humanity... as does your mind.
Sheer Bull-Crap. Not mankind, but you personally are trying to hi-jack my
mind by totally alienating an expression of mine. You are pinning your
own most dirty interpretation on my words and try to explain to me what I
meant, just as if you would know better than myself what I intended to
say.
>
> >As to your question "Do you personally hate the Jews?" - why should I?
> >Why exactly should I hate or love the Jews more or less than any other
> >people? I see no reason.
> >
> You really DIDN'T answer the question, now... did you? You turned
> my question into a question of your own, without answering. And the
> answer from me to YOUR question is that you certainly SHOULD
> NOT. But that says NOTHING about if you do... since we KNOW
> that many DO 'hate the Jew,' for some very evil reasons, which
> can never be answered with an argument of 'why should they?' Now,
> perhaps we can return to MY QUESTION?
Oh well... I do not hate the Jews. Happy to have cleared things up for
you.
> >> > Well, you did search for my comments in the archive. Why don't you simply
> >> > read them? I expressed *REPEATEDLY*, *EXACTLY* and *UNMISUNDERSTANDABLY*
> >> > what IMHO should be the future of the State Israel.
>
> Yeah... I believe it was something like -- Israel has no legal future...
Well...put this passage up.
Klaun
A Planet Visitor
>In article <1scenvsdoekinfrse...@4ax.com>,
>abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>
>>
>> There are things that can NEVER be changed, Jürgen...
>> the past... and the circumstances of your birth... for two examples.
>> Those two are intertwined and simply cannot be separated. They
>> form the substance that determines your CHARACTER, or
>> lack of character, Jürgen. While CHARACTER is the axis on
>> which your existence as a human turns. In denial of the past...
>> and the circumstances of your birth -- your character is put
>> to the test. We are all put to the test in bonding the past to
>> the circumstances of our birth. I find you fail that test. Plain
>> and simple.
>
>Ouch...now that hurts.
>
Although it was meant to hurt... I doubt very seriously that it did so.
For reasons other than my intention.. but because you are impervious
to the recognition of your own character flaws.
>Tell me - have you really got nothing better to do that to examine
>posters' characters by their usenet posts?
>
No... it seems to me something that each of us should do. A
self-examination of our own character, and the character of
those others of our species. Wouldn't you agree that the
character demonstrated by others has a great impact on
our lives? I recognize you have a 'distaste' for Jewish
didactic, but from the Talmud -- "The one great requisite
is character."
>> There is absolutely no doubt that you
>> meant it in the context of a presumed 'Jewish influence,' on
>> U.S. policy in the Middle-East.
>>
>
>You know what? I start thinking that your ridiculous accusations are the
>product of your very own estimation of the Jewish influence in the US.
I was not the one attempting to place a "star" on the U.S. Banner.
You were. So do not try and turn this dialog 180 degrees about.
I presume NO Jewish influence in American Foreign Policy.
Only the recognition that Israel is a fully constituted legally existing
Nation, and its survival might be threatened, were the U.S. to
withdraw its efforts to maintain a measure of stability in that region.
My opinion fully meshes with the American Foreign Policy in place,
other than it sometimes seems to plod along rather than be more
direct and immediate in its efforts. But I would never expect the
U.S. to abandon its support for the continued existence of Israel
as it is now constituted. In fact, as I've pointed out elsewhere,
in spite of the U.S. losing 'favor' with Arab states because of that
support, I believe it is all that is between the tiny bit of stability that
now exists and an all out conflagration in that region. You would
prefer that it be removed, and the conflagration proceed right on
your scheduled time-table.
>Self-fulfilling-prophecy-like you are projecting your own suspicions on
>my phraselette about the 'star', as if you could tone down your own
>presentiments by firstly relating your own thought to anyone and secondly
>condemning it.
>
Again... the use of a "star" representing the Jews, placed on the
U.S. flag, was not from MY imagination... but from YOURS. Please
do not deny what is clearly in evidence. I will most certainly condemn
what I see as a clear anti-Semitic comment. And I certainly saw it
in your comment. You simply cannot presume to 'shut me up.'
>> Yet you concern yourself rather obsessively with
>> 'pity' for murderers. While clearly you HAVE on MANY occasions
>> demanded that the murders they commit be EXCUSED, in the
>> sense of the DP.
>
>I said that you fail to make a meaningful difference who should deserve
>the DP and who should deserve a lesser penalty. We discussed some neat
>examples in this context, Meister.
>
I do not make the choice of who 'deserves' the DP, mein Herr. I
do not 'play God,' as you do... presuming you can state NO ONE
should be executed, regardless of his acts. I support a secular
concept (most of your arguments are based more on quasi-religious
ravings, IMHO), which presumes that there are some... who are
so evil... and so dangerous to us in a secular sense, that not executing
them is --
1) An insult to our own 'morality.'
2) An insult to THEIR OWN existence if we presume that 'caging them
like animals' for the rest of their lives is a 'better solution.'
3) An acceptance of the possibility of their lives being more
important than our own - which flies in the face of the fundamental
nature provided instinct of all living creatures -- self-survival.
I do not choose who those I speak of are. I do not presume to
have such powers or abilities. While you would in your 'God-like'
fanatical pontification speak that 'none of them are.' You are the one
presuming to have such powers or abilities. Not I. In this world,
I leave such decisions to this world. Rather than those who
presume they are God... such as you.
>>
>> I have often felt that your opposition to the DP, is not so much an
>> opposition to the concept of the DP itself, but more your expression
>> of anti-American sentiment. In effect USING the DP as a weapon.
>
>
>You guys are displaying sort of mercilessness which coerces any sensitive
>being in opposition.
>
'You guys' being 'You Americans.' Thus... simply more anti-American
ravings.
But let me explain 'mercilessness' to you.. since it seems to be another
English word that confuses you --
Mercilessness is what the murderer demonstrates to his VICTIM! The
victim who often receives the emotional, and physical trauma of a shotgun
blast ripping out all of his vital organs, laying with eyes glazed, in stark
disbelief, and unbearable pain, bleeding to death on the floor behind the
cash register at the 7-11, at least a decade before the murderer will
possibly meet his own end. The victim, long dead...leaving behind a
widow and four children, now grown by the time the murderer faces
execution. The children having found their lives altered in the most
grotesquely unbearable manner, in the interim between the murder of
their father and the lawful execution of the murderer. While the
murderer gained $112.00 from the till and a full tank of gas for the car
he left in... probably laughing at the amazed look on the face of his
victim at the moment of the shotgun impact. The TRUE victim is not
even offered the opportunity to 'make peace' with his Maker. THAT
is 'mercilessness.' By the time the murderer can even possibly pay
with his life for the life he extracted, that murderer has breathed air...
lived... and probably drooled each night remembering that amazed
look on his victim's face, for more than a decade. He has EXISTED...
regardless of how you would hysterically and in your patented
emotional appeals believe we should 'feel sorry' and 'pity' that murderer.
He has EXISTED... which of course is the primary instinct of all
biological life forms. He has EXISTED. And his victim? Well.. he
ceased to exist more than a decade ago. I do not oppose that
decade. It is NECESSARY to insure WE are more 'moral'
than he could ever be...in the use of an extended due process
that HE never afforded to his victim. But do not expect me to 'feel
sorry,' for someone who has EXISTED for more than a decade
longer than the victim he murdered. Because EXISTENCE
is all we have in this secular world.
Of course, an even more 'emotional' case can be made for the serial
murderer such as Ted Bundy, or the mass-child murderer such
as John Wayne Gacy, or Kenneth McDuff, or Theodore Frank,
or the many murderers who murdered five teenagers, execution-
style, in a Wendy's robbery to eliminate eye-witnesses. Mein
Herr... THAT'S MERCILESSNESS!!! Please try to keep your
English terminologies straight. In fact, the entire argument of
'mercilessness' in respect to the DP, is an argument which can
only be seen as SUPPORT for that concept. You really should
find another method to oppose the DP, if you expect anyone
to presume your argument is 'reasonable.' Because opposition
to the DP, using the word 'Mercilessness,' is an argument which
can only demonstrate SUPPORT for the DP.
>> Focused here on only that particular point in which you hope to find
>> agreement with other aspects of your anti-American sentiment.
>> Hoping those others who do oppose the DP will thus support your
>> actual true anti-American feelings. I also now, have much to reason
>> that your anti-American sentiment pivots totally on your presumption
>> that the U.S. is 'run by Jews,' and thus finds THAT, rather than the
>> U.S. use of the DP, as the root reason for your anti-American sentiment.
>> A disturbing thought.
>
>It would stand good to you to invest some thought concerning with the
>real reasons fo anti-American sentiments.
I've already determined that... your anti-American sentiments are
rooted in anti-Semitism. You seem quite ready to see bigotry in
the eye of anyone other than yourself.
> We have for instant right now
>an American President who shifted the complete surplus left by Clinton
>plus twice this sum to the accounts of his buddies, and now that the US
>are factually bankrupt this President would like the Europeans and the UN
>to continue the payments for his buddies - American companies should get
>the lucrative orders for rebuilding Iraq, and we, the Europeans, should
>pay them.
>
Where do you ever come up with these ravings? Personally, I don't
care if Europe contributes a dime to the reconstruction of Iraq.
But you seem to ALWAYS be 'overly' concerned with the 'money.'
The following has NOTHING to do with BUSH... Who certainly
did not think through the follow-on consequences of victory in
Iraq. Nor did our military == Fully two divisions of the Iraqi army
simply melted away into the civilian population. Six thousand
of them, having hidden their weapons, and now functioning alongside
incoming terrorists. Rooting them out is an unenviable task...but
one that must be achieved, now that we have reached this point.
I will gladly pay any price, in any form of a tax increase, to insure
the survival of a new Iraq, in the establishment of at least a
quasi-democratic form. I believe not doing so would be a 'moral
disgrace' toward the Iraqi. Nor do I assert that goal is a certainty.
But it would be unprincipled of me NOT to support such a goal,
regardless of the cost. And I believe it would be unprincipled of
YOU not to support such a goal. Or do you support a return of
Saddam? In my opinion, I would be immoral not to hold to that
principle. Even though I initially opposed that war, believing the
price in HUMAN COSTS, rather than in 'dollars' cost, was
unacceptable.
Regardless of how one opposes the war... it is a REALITY.
And to smugly hope that it FAILS... which would be catastrophic
to the future of the Iraqi people now, is simply a totally 'immoral'
choice to me. One may still oppose the fact that it was initiated,
but one simply cannot HOPE that it fails, in order to simply
say ==> see... I was right.. <== That is an absolutely absurd
idea to me. Sacrificing all that humanity simply to say -- I was
right. One may have been 'right' before... but doing nothing NOW...
can never be perceived as what is 'right' NOW. And it certainly
would be self-destructive. Quite clearly. This is an article by
Thomas Friedman, which refers to France... but you could
substitute Germany for France and the same would apply --
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/986972/posts
Arguing that we should do NOTHING in Iraq, is not only
destructive to the Iraqi, but destructive to those who would
do nothing. I have the strong impression, that as Friedman
remarked -- You "want America to fail in Iraq."
>You actually showed and continue to show that an arrogance to the UN and
>to anyone who opposed Bushes adventure that Anti-Americanism is the
>purely logic consequence.
>
yada... yada... yada... Just more anti-American raving... and
the presumption that the American 'adventure' into Iraq,
should 'fail' so you can assert how 'right' you were. As new
mass graves would then appear.
>
>> Don't you think... apart from you being a
>> German, that as a member of our species, and a part of humanity -
>> that you owe an apology for the holocaust
>
>Nice to see you back-rawing.
Sad to see... no apology from you. You should concern yourself
with strengthening your moral back... rather than presuming you have
no burden as a human being.
>> ... even if it is only to your
>> Maker?
>
>Hmmmm.....so I should apologize to my maker for that he made me as I
>am???
>
The more you post here.. the more I believe you should do so, irrespective
of the holocaust... but simply for your personal views. Rather than the burden
we all have as human beings in respect to the holocaust. I can't help but
feel that if you tried to do so... it would make you a better person.
>> >> In fact, I once remarked that it was "no longer your burden as a German."
>> >> But I was doing so, not because I really felt it was not.... but because I did
>> >> not want you to feel as if I was insulting you personally. Since it IS your
>> >> burden... simply because you are a German.
>> >>
>> >
>> >OK, then. Finally we arrived at what actually drives you. Not my thoughts
>> >and perceceptions are the root of your critics, but rather the plain fact
>> >that was born in Germany as a child of German parents. Thanks, that's
>> >enough, Meister.
>> >
>> What I was trying to do... was relieve you of some of that burden.
>
>I do not need your relief - thanks. You are of the opinion that I am
>guilty of the Holocaust, because I am German. That is 'nuff said.
>
We are ALL 'guilty of the Holocaust.' That's rather fundamental,
or it would not need to be reminded of us. When we touch the
past pain experienced by others, we find the key to changing our
own future, and that future is built upon the recognition of that past
pain. Obviously, forgetting the source of the holocaust.. hate for
the Jews, simply ignores the consequences of anti-Semitism... and
makes it that much easier to presume it is acceptable. I believe
that my comment here... recognizes your failure to see your own
anti-Semitic leanings.. which I see, regardless if no one else does.
And as I said before... I am saddened by it...more than angry.
>
>> ....... If you were passive in your arguments
>> in respect to the Jews... that would be one thing. But you
>> are actively antagonistic toward the Jew... <...> That is
>> totally unacceptable to me.
>
>You are still blurring the difference between Israel's policy and the
>Jews. Put up any passage where I attacked the Jews - there is none.
Umm... the very idea that your attacks on Israel are so virulent
is one of the sources. When I posted this --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/AntiSemitism.htm
You DEFENDED those words... with the argument that you
could provide many equally hateful comments from Jews toward
Arabs. Yet, each time CLIPPING them... while never actually
living up to your claim.
You most certainly support the disintegration of a Jewish flag and
government in Israel. You are certainly in support of a Palestinian
state which includes the decomposition of Israel and its incorporation
into a greater Palestinian State that absorbs Israel. Essentially trying
to place the Jews into a subordinate role in a no-longer existing
Israel in the Middle East. That is rather clear, since when I stated
that I support a Palestinian State coexisting side by side with Israel,
you rejected any such idea with your words from the past --
"Afew isolated islands in the desert. Such an "offer" you can put elsewhere, "
There is no doubt that supporting such an absurd idea of a 'Greater
Palestine,' is to support the disintegration of the Jew as a population in
the Middle-East. Without a doubt. Which is exactly the same view as
those extremists who will only accept the disintegration of Israel into a
Palestinians ruled territory, which will obviously result in the dispersion,
if not a new attempt at the annihilation of the Jew in the Middle East.
You support Israel being absorbed into a 'Greater Palestine,' and the
Jew left to play the same role in 'Holocaust II.' This time, orchestrated
by the Palestinians, under the production and direction of various Arab
extremists everywhere. Isn't that true? Isn't your opinion that
Israel SHOULD BE 'returned' to the Palestinians as part of a
'greater Palestine'? Any rational person would realize that doing
so would result in exactly what I have described.
We then have these comments from you --
1) "Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
the Palestinians"
2) "Sorry, but this is a general licence for occupation and land theft."
3) "reason why the Jews have been justified to expropriate the
Palestinians their land."
4) "I am awaiting your proper derivation of Israel's right to exist on
the ground from which the Palestinians had been driven away."
5) "but notably without forgetting that the land is factually an occupied."
6) "Why then do you support the totally unreflected support of Israel
by the US?"
7) "Why do you not simply add another star in your banner and declare
Israel the 53 US-state?"
Anyone can clearly see, that in 3) you are calling the "Jews" THIEVES!
Repeating from another thread, in which you clipped almost every word --
Your 'hate for the Jews,' has been in evidence for some time now,
IMHO. But, you cannot come right out and express it... so you
need to use those pitifully weak characterizations of the Jews being
thieves who have stolen the land. And more importantly you need
to find a suitable scapegoat for that hate. So it appears you are
not DIRECTLY against the Jew. You find that pretext in the U.S.
You claim the U.S. is the one ACTUALLY 'killing the Palestinians'
and filling the role you KNOW is actually that 'hateful Jew.' Then
you argue that the U.S. Foreign Policy is controlled by the Jews.
You have no idea how bigoted those characterization are. Were
I to imply a contrary view to Germany's Foreign Policy your
outrage would be palpable. Then you connect the Jew to the U.S.
with your pathetic anti-Semitic use of the "star." But certainly,
you've let it 'slip out' in a few places.
Finally -- You have certainly tried to characterize Americans and
Jews within the same 'class' as you 'defined' for others, in your typical
God-like pronouncements of how PV classes humans -- "class-A
(Americans, Jews), class-B (Europeans) and class-C humans (Muslims)"
-- Clearly showing that YOU connect your anti-American sentiments
directly to your anti-Jewish sentiments.
> What
>I attacked was systematic suppression of the Palestinians. A fact which
>the US willingly do support, besides - even if you don't like this
>recognition.
>
Clearly not true. Your attacks have been anti-Semitic in nature.
In every instance.
>> >> >See - I formed the phrases, and I know what I meant. I surely do not need
>> >> >anyone to tell me what I meant. Period.
>> >> >
>> >> Wrong!!
>> >
>> >My mind is my mind and not yours. Thus, if there lies interpretatory
>> >bandwith in any of my phrases then I am the instance to clear up the
>> >exact meaning, and not you.
>> >
>> Not true at all.. You belong to humanity... as does your mind.
>
>Sheer Bull-Crap. Not mankind, but you personally are trying to hi-jack my
>mind by totally alienating an expression of mine.
As I explained... your 'mind' is a bit too filthy for me to lay claim to
it. You may have it... I want nothing to do with it. But most certainly
you are part of the sum total of our species. But that is the problem
of our species, and not my problem. Repeating...to make it perfectly
clear --- I want nothing to do with your mind. I have not found a
single thought within it that I seem to agree with.
> You are pinning your
>own most dirty interpretation on my words and try to explain to me what I
>meant, just as if you would know better than myself what I intended to
>say.
>
LOL. You claimed your mind is 'your own,' and then you DEMANDED
OF MY MIND (and have now very deceptively again clipped that claim)
that -- "You think simply wrong." In demanding what "I MUST THINK"!!
Apparently trying to 'hi-jack' MY MIND. You hypocrite!
As I pointed out (and you clipped) -- "Apparently YOU are trying
to tell me MY mind. So I will repeat YOUR words, in the context
of my argument -- "My mind is my mind and not yours." If you
cannot now see the hypocrisy you often offer here... I don't know
how to further prove it to you. You set one standard for others,
but totally ignore that same standard for yourself."
And then you PERPETUATE that hypocrisy, by again commenting
on my words.. while clipping your proven hypocrisy.
>> >As to your question "Do you personally hate the Jews?" - why should I?
>> >Why exactly should I hate or love the Jews more or less than any other
>> >people? I see no reason.
>> >
>> You really DIDN'T answer the question, now... did you? You turned
>> my question into a question of your own, without answering. And the
>> answer from me to YOUR question is that you certainly SHOULD
>> NOT. But that says NOTHING about if you do... since we KNOW
>> that many DO 'hate the Jew,' for some very evil reasons, which
>> can never be answered with an argument of 'why should they?' Now,
>> perhaps we can return to MY QUESTION?
>
>Oh well... I do not hate the Jews. Happy to have cleared things up for
>you.
>
I don't believe you. The evidence to the contrary is just too overwhelming.
And I expect it only to build up more and more, as you become more
determined to both deny your anti-Semitism, deny you have any burden
to the holocaust whatsoever, demand the State of Israel be 'incorporated'
into a 'Greater Palestine,' rave hysterically that Israel has no de jure right
to exist, and contend that the U.S. is actually 'run by the Jews..'
>> >> > Well, you did search for my comments in the archive. Why don't you simply
>> >> > read them? I expressed *REPEATEDLY*, *EXACTLY* and *UNMISUNDERSTANDABLY*
>> >> > what IMHO should be the future of the State Israel.
>>
>> Yeah... I believe it was something like -- Israel has no legal future...
>
>Well...put this passage up.
>
Your words -- "Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
the Palestinians"
PV
>Klaun
A Planet Visitor
You might address that question to those who have deported the Jews.
They deserve a homeland, just as any other humans do. But you
seem to believe they do not. Given that you really don't care about
what happens to them.
But I am astonished over the fact you clipped EVERYTHING from my
comment, obviously at a total loss of how to address some very damning
arguments to your view. You see, mein Herr... the more I've watched
you 'in action,' the more I have detected your 'methods.'
PV
>K.
A Planet Visitor
>Le Sun, 21 Sep 2003 04:49:31 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> For one moment, let us examine the general idea of what we
>> call "spam" -- When we see it -- we find it to be
>
>... a .sig, according to FuckWit ...
Actually it is a call to you as well... something you have NEVER
expressed - See
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/The_victims.htm
A great well of pain forms when I realize how unable you are
to actually express any pity for any victims. The fact that you
find HUMOR in their murder, simply is incomprehensible to me.
Some cases in point in your words -- laughing at murder --
When two F-16's crashed off the California coast and humans died...
hardly suppressing your laughter --
Thou shalt "... not be a Pacific Ocean, unless you want to get 'lit up' ... right,
Jigsaw ??!!" See --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021018212910.06896.00004124%40mb-mv.aol.com
Laughing at the terrorist murders in the McDonald's in Moscow...
with the 'comic joke' that
"M
At least we know that they like good food ..
.^M"
See --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021020212952.10684.00003505%40mb-cu.aol.com
Laughing at the Moscow theater terrorist attack that resulted in the
death of a great number of innocent human beings --
"... damn, those evil terrorists, when will Bush invade Iraq, and stop 'em, eh ?"
See --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20021024212938.18726.00000086%40mb-fe.aol.com
And the cablecar tragedy in Italy --
"Hey, PV, we still have the United States armed forces watching over us, don't we ..?
Not to mention crashing into our hillsides, cutting down our cable cars ..." See
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=slrn924cfg.ebd.desmond%40lievre.voute.net
And of course... that great gale of laughter that erupted, which Donna
called obscene, and I could not agree more - your laughter when more
than a dozen innocent humans were murdered in Jakarta -- when you
posted -- Thanks is due "... to Bush and Blair, for easing the population
problem in Indonesia, by another 13." While posting a link to the murder of
13 innocent humans in a bombing in a Jakarta hotel.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20030806120202.00871.00001102%40mb-m17.aol.com
There just haven't been many terrorist murders lately... which has probably
depressed you... being unable to LAUGH in your so-called 'satire.'
>url:http://www.google.fr/groups?selm=1L6r9.134770%24O8.3305641%40twister.tampabay.rr.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
>
>ROTFLMAO !!
>
I would have expected that given that JPB and you are 'joined at
the evil hip.' However; you should keep in mind that he compared
the 'weight-loss' experienced by the 'Great White Whale' to the
holocaust in the same sentence... without a pause... See --
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=gh8fnvg7afkiijp4iru3mv9tosle8b8adj%404ax.com
>{ snip remainder of utter cack that FuckWit hopes to pass off as 'debate' }
How would you know what that is, Oh Nameless One? You've always
thought that it's something you use to 'catch fish.'
PV
>--
>The Nameless One I'm a lawyer... guffaw...guffaw...guffaw...
A Planet Visitor
>
>"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
>news:j1qcnvkisf4vl31ua...@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 21:23:49 +0200, Clown <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>
>> >PV:
>> >
>> >
>> >> And I would not object to
>> >> any person stating that as an American I have a higher obligation to
>> >> oppose racism... just as I state that as a German, Jürgen has a higher
>> >> obligation to oppose anti-Semitism. .....
>> >
>> >What a strange hypothesis.
>> >
>> It is rather a given that you would find it so. Being blind to your
>> own obligation.
>> >
>> >> I will not quibble over this point, since I sense a denial in every
>effort to
>> >> 'defend' Jürgen in his use of that "star," given that I have stated
>quite clearly
>> >> that I know he has no PERSONAL responsibility to the holocaust.
>> >
>> >Ah...I see. No PERSONAL responsibility. Now what a responsibility is it
>> >which I should bear?
>> >
>> The responsibility of your birth,
>
>LOL
>
I figured you would also be in denial.
>>and the fact that you exist in
>> a country,
>
>LOL
>
See above.
>and are a citizen of a country with a shameful past.
>
>LOL
>
Whoa... you do not believe the holocaust is a shameful past?
What am I missing here? Are you another who believes those
murders were committed by space aliens? Is it another case of
shhh.... it's a German....don't mention the holocaust? If that's
the case, there are a great number of subjects that I could
claim you must --- shhh...it's PV...don't make any anti-American
comment.
>> That past, just as slavery is the shameful past of the U.S.
>> demands that we be more aware of that past, and hold ourselves
>> to a higher standard to reject that past. If WE do not do it,
>> it makes it easier for others to not do it. I feel such an
>> obligation to combat racism. I can only feel sorry for you,
>> if you do not feel a higher obligation to combat anti-Semitism.
>
>Which is not to be confused with anti-Zionism.
Not in the least. Only you are confused about that... which suggests
YOU might not 'like the Jews,' that much. I simply refuse to take
shit which attacks the Jews anymore. The smell of hate just
becomes overwhelming.
>
>> And in a sense, I feel sorry for your 'kinsmen'
>
>Which means 'blood' relatives!
>
If you say so. I don't think many Germans would deny they
feel a kinship to other Germans. And it's a reasonable emotion.
IMHO. That you do not feel it... might say more about YOU...
than anything else. And in any case, is totally wrong. See -
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=kinship
You will find that :"kinship" is defined not only as 'blood
connection,' but "Relationship by nature or character; affinity."
>> that I feel you
>> disgrace - if you do not hold yourself to that higher standard in
>> respect to anti-Semitism.
>
>He has such standards - you merely refuse to recognise
>them,
>
His standards insult the holocaust, the Jews, Israel, the U.S.
and humanity. Not necessarily in that order. In addition
to insulting my sensibilities.
Given that you find any comment which does not intend to
insult Israel is not well-balanced... your opinion is worthless
in this particular dialog. I have long realized you harbor
some deep discontent with the existence of Israel. Do
you presume that Israel should become a part of a
'Greater Palestine'? He does! What do you presume
would happen to the Jews in that 'Greater Palestine'?
Do you care? I do not believe he does. Given THESE
views on the Jews in the Middle-East, by those who
would not control that 'Greater Palestine.' See --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/AntiSemitism.htm
What I next expect from some European posters here...
is that they will claim that MY posting of these
anti-Semitic comments of others... is 'bigotry' toward
the Arabs. Cheee....
> -- My words --
>> "The U.S. has rightly condemned both sides in this conflict.
>> Demanding that Israeli forces quit Palestinian land, and
>> Palestinians quit murdering with terrorist attacks on shopping
>> malls."
>>
>> I have always sensed that you hate the Jews.
>
>Your senses are letting you down again, PV.
No.. actually... my senses of smelling anti-Semitism... just
as racism is rather acute. I suppose you would call it
'insensitivity,' as you did when Ol' Racist Nev suggested
that no Jews were murdered in Dachau... since it
wasn't a death-camp.
>I regard
>this insult to Jurgen as the equivalent of JPB's
>assertion that you are a fake anti-racist.
Who gives a shit what you regard. In the context
of the Jews... I simply find every one of your comments
attempts to diminish the effects of anti-Semitism. As I
told you before... I'll let you get away with calling racist
slurs simply 'insensitive.' But I will not permit you to do
so in the sense of the holocaust, or any connection which
I find intends to perpetuate anti-Semitism. ESPECIALLY
if it comes from a European who is unable to see himself
as others see him. At least I have the guts to admit racism
exists in the U.S. When do YOU intend to open YOUR
EYES, in respect to anti-Semitism in Europe? If
you cannot see it in Ol' Racist Nev... and Jürgen... you
are simply not opening your eyes. And I've given you
more sense than that in the past. However, I must say
that I feel you 'don't like the Jews that much.'
> You
>must accept that criticism of Israel does not
>equate to criticism of Jews. If you don't so accept
>such a proposition your views on what defines
>a anti-Semite have no value.
>
Of course it does. Not necessarily when someone
recognizes atrocities which are committed on both
sides. Or when someone comments on the illegal
occupation of the West Bank. But for you to defend
the comments that Jürgen has vomited over and over,
is disgusting... and I am more disappointed in you than
you can imagine, WHENEVER the subject of the
Jews or Israel is mentioned in this group. Thoroughly
disappointed.
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
deportations of the Palestinians. Since you refuse to take a position on
this point I conclude that you think this had been right.
You are quick in claiming your moral superiority, but totally lame in
answering delicate questions.
K.
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
<........................................................................
.........................................................................
........................................................................>
> Clearly not true. Your attacks have been anti-Semitic in nature.
> In every instance.
What I do is searching for a compromise, and this requires to see *BOTH*
the sides and their suffering.
You made some lame remarks that you disagree with Sharon - I regard them
as totally untrustworthy.
>
> >> >> >See - I formed the phrases, and I know what I meant. I surely do not need
> >> >> >anyone to tell me what I meant. Period.
> >> >> >
> >> >> Wrong!!
> >> >
> >> >My mind is my mind and not yours. Thus, if there lies interpretatory
> >> >bandwith in any of my phrases then I am the instance to clear up the
> >> >exact meaning, and not you.
> >> >
> >> Not true at all.. You belong to humanity... as does your mind.
> >
> >Sheer Bull-Crap. Not mankind, but you personally are trying to hi-jack my
> >mind by totally alienating an expression of mine.
>
> As I explained... your 'mind' is a bit too filthy for me to lay claim to
> it. You may have it... I want nothing to do with it. But most certainly
> you are part of the sum total of our species. But that is the problem
> of our species, and not my problem. Repeating...to make it perfectly
> clear --- I want nothing to do with your mind. I have not found a
> single thought within it that I seem to agree with.
You are trying continuously to dictate what any poster disagreeing with
you really meant, by mutilating and twisting their statements.
>
> > You are pinning your
> >own most dirty interpretation on my words and try to explain to me what I
> >meant, just as if you would know better than myself what I intended to
> >say.
> >
> LOL. You claimed your mind is 'your own,' and then you DEMANDED
> OF MY MIND (and have now very deceptively again clipped that claim)
> that -- "You think simply wrong." In demanding what "I MUST THINK"!!
> Apparently trying to 'hi-jack' MY MIND. You hypocrite!
Now this is nothing but ridiculous. If it *is* simply wrong what you
think that I think, then my legitime answer is "You think simply wrong."
>
> As I pointed out (and you clipped) -- "Apparently YOU are trying
> to tell me MY mind. So I will repeat YOUR words, in the context
> of my argument -- "My mind is my mind and not yours." If you
> cannot now see the hypocrisy you often offer here... I don't know
> how to further prove it to you. You set one standard for others,
> but totally ignore that same standard for yourself."
You are logically wrong. I can not hi-jack your thoughts, because you do
express none. You are writing pamphlets, which consist of moral
accusations and character assassinations, but you do offer almost nothing
to discuss.
> .... Now,
> >> perhaps we can return to MY QUESTION?
> >
> >Oh well... I do not hate the Jews. Happy to have cleared things up for
> >you.
> >
> I don't believe you. The evidence to the contrary is just too overwhelming.
.....
Really...you don't believe me! Surprise, surprise. It was a mistake to
pose this question, Meister. My answer is: I do not hate the Jews.
> >>> Yeah... I believe it was something like -- Israel has no legal future...
> >Well...put this passage up.
> >
> Your words -- "Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
> the Palestinians"
>
Sorry...wrong again. My statement is referring to the origin of Israel,
not to Israel's future. I clearly and repeatedly expressed that Israel
became indispensable - a statement which does not fit in your pamphlets,
thus, you are ignoring it and putting lies instead.
K.
John Rennie
"Clown" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:MPG.19e3552b7...@news.t-online.de...
snip
>> You are trying continuously to dictate what any poster disagreeing with
> you really meant, by mutilating and twisting their statements.
Yes, well - that's it really. This is the standard PV treatment of
those posts that he disagrees with. I think, Jurgen, what you should
also take on board is the simple fact that Jim is not really as clever
or perhaps I should say knowledgeable as he thinks he is. Let us
take his attitude to those 'appeasing' European nations that he
despises so much for facilitating the rise and then the conquests of
H****r. He never seems to come near the real reason why
H****r when he came to power made Germany the strong militarist
force that she became as compared with the comparatively weak state
of France and Britain. The reason is so simple that like the man
who couldn't see the wood for the trees it is often overlooked not only
by such as Jim but by many others. The German people, or at least
a large minority of them, were in despair. Many of them could not
understand why they had lost a war that they seemed to be winning
until its last months. They regarded the reparations demanded from
them as iniquitous (although they were mild compared to those forced
on the Russians at Brest Litovsk); they were humiliated by the French
occupation of the Ruhr in 1924; there was much disorder in the streets
with the socialist, communist and nazi para military organisations
causing chaos and they were shattered economically by
the collapse of the Reich Mark. The Germans at that time were
a democratic state but did that state do anything to salvage Germany's
economy? It tried but it failed and the reason for that failure was pointed
out vigorously by H****r and Goebbels. At one time 30 different
parties were fighting it out between each other. H****r ranged
himself AGAINST democracy - he made no bones about it. He
told the German people that he would dispense with democracy if he
was elected. That is what nearly 40% of the German people voted
for in 1932 - a one party state. They weren't deceived; that was
the Nazi party manifesto. When a force such as that represented
by the Nazis dispenses with democracy it removes all the hurdles
that prevents a democratic nation from preparing for war. Democracy
is, as the Nazis were never tired of pointing out, a weakness. It
divides a nation it does not unite it. Individual freedom is a threat
to the strength of the collective and so on and so on. You and I
Jurgen would not have survived very long in this society - we would
have probably been amongst the first to reside in Dachau but do
not kid yourself we would be in a minority not only then but in any
country at any time. As I have stressed before to Jim, most people
do not want the freedoms that he and I so prize, they want security
and will swap our vaunted freedoms for that security. The fact that
they will lose both security and freedom does not become apparent
until it is too late. France and Britain to their credit did not
dispense
with democracy but then they had 'won' the war. They had also
suffered economic chaos but it was much less severe than that of
Germany. They remained democratic and therefore in comparison
with Germany they remained weak. It is very hard to persuade a
democratic people to go to war or even to prepare for a war forced
upon them. They have to see their leaders humiliated before they
are roused to such a pitch. That is what happened after Munich;
we were humiliated as we had to be; that is why WE declared
war even though (for the moment at least) our own country was not
immediately threatened. Roosevelt would never have persuaded
the American people to go to war as Wilson managed in 1917. They
too were democratic, they too were divided. The only reason
America went to war was that war was declared on them.
Clown
j.re...@ntlworld.com says...
Exactly. The Weimarer Republik was '33 the single German experience with
democracy, and it was a time of grave economic depression. It wasn't too
amazing that many people made the Republik responsible for the pathetic
states, and that they cried for a strong leadership. Most unfortunately,
good conditions for Hynkel.
> ... Individual freedom is a threat
> to the strength of the collective and so on and so on. You and I
> Jurgen would not have survived very long in this society - we would
> have probably been amongst the first to reside in Dachau but do
> not kid yourself we would be in a minority not only then but in any
> country at any time. ...
Indeed there had been two possibilities in NS-Germany. Either to do what
so many did and leave, or to give up any political thought and stay
silent over the years. Attempts of resistance came close to suicide - too
heavily had been riddled whole the institutions with NS-Spies. Most sad
an example was the story of Hans and Sophie Scholl, Christoph Probst and
some more young people, who had started some anti-NS-activities in
Munich. Soon they had been denunciated, and the three mentioned had been
executed.
Sincerely
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor
In other words you deny the Jews a legal homeland in the Middle East.
Once again-- remember your own words -- "My mind is my mind and
not yours." So do not try to hi-jack MY mind by claiming I have
concluded what I have never concluded. Of course, any deportations
of Palestinians from Israel that resulted from its creation can never be
presumed as 'right.' Nor can those even larger deportations of Jews
that took place in Arab states with the creation of the State of Israel
be considered 'right.' See -
http://arabterrorism.tripod.com/history3.html
Situations which you intend to forget, and see only what you want to
see... in your hate for the Jews. Because you most certainly translate
Israel --> Jews. As I do as well, but I do not express hate for Israel
or the Jews... while you try to hide your hate for the Jews, by presuming
you are only anti-Israel.
However; none of this emotional input, has any meaning in respect to
the legal creation of the State of Israel. Deportation of any kind are
'not right.' The holocaust was 'not right.' Slavery was 'not right.' The
mass deportation of Germans from East Prussia, which is now Russia,
was 'not right.' That has no meaning in respect to the legally existing
states of Israel, Germany, Russia, or the U.S. Many atrocities occur,
but you wish only a larger atrocity to develop. Quite certainly you
have focused on those deportations of Palestinians as presuming the
'Jews are evil.' Which is symptomatic of your 'hate for the Jews.'
>You are quick in claiming your moral superiority, but totally lame in
>answering delicate questions.
>
My moral superiority rests in the fact that I equate Israel with a lawful
homeland for the Jew. While you demonstrate your hate for the Israeli
is directly translated into your hate for the Jews. The Palestinians, in
fact, have a homeland... and that homeland should be created into a
legally existing country called Palestine, existing side-by-side, rather
than dominating the homeland of the Jews. It is quite sufficient land
space for the population in question, if they would actually work to
build that homeland, instead of being incited by their leadership and
other factions to expel the Jews from the land that is now theirs... legally
and factually. Had this been realized upon the creation of the State of
Israel, an enormous number of lives would not have been wasted on
both sides, and the resources in both human and financial terms,
could have transformed the land that belongs to the Palestinians,
while the West Bank and the Gaza strip would be totally 'unoccupied' by
those having no legal claim to that land, as it is now illegally occupied.
The fact that you have characterized Palestinian land as "Afew isolated
islands in the desert. Such an "offer" you can put elsewhere, "
demonstrates how much you 'toe the radical line of militant Arabs
wishing only the elimination of the Jew in the Middle East.' How little
you want peace in that region, and how much you want Israel
(translate=Jews) to be absorbed by the Palestinians, with the quite
obvious attendant result which has been seen in Europe for thousands
of years - conversion...expulsion...extermination. All intended to
eliminate the Jew as a people.
For all your infernal hysterics... you are NOT in favor of peace in
that region... but actually in favor of the Jew being made subservient
to the Arabs, and eventually either dispersed or eliminated as a people.
PV
>K.
A Planet Visitor
>In article <qbmhnvks1p2h3h4e5...@4ax.com>,
>abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
><........................................................................
>.........................................................................
>........................................................................>
>
>> Clearly not true. Your attacks have been anti-Semitic in nature.
>> In every instance.
>
>What I do is searching for a compromise, and this requires to see *BOTH*
>the sides and their suffering.
>
When have you ever expressed seeing any suffering of the Jews? Let's
clear the air here.... because your disagreeable nature is simply sickening
to me. Do you see Israel as representing the Jew? If so.. then please
do not beat around the bush, presuming that you can speak of placing
a "star" of Israel on the U.S. banner without the clear meaning that
it represents to you THE "star" of the Jews. With the very clear connection
of other "stars" being placed on Jews, in another time. If you claim that
Israel does NOT represent the Jew in the Middle East to you, than
exactly what DOES its banner, which represents a symbol for the Jews
mean? To be clear... I find that Israel is a DIRECT representation of the
Jewish people in the Middle East, and to presume that Israel should be
absorbed into a 'Greater Palestinian,' is the same as presuming that the
Jew no longer has a homeland. It seems that so many Europeans try
to 'distance' themselves from connecting the Jew with Israel... presuming
that if they speak of 'Israeli committed atrocities,' they are not 'actually'
speaking of 'Jewish committed atrocities.' But that's simple deception,
since everyone KNOWS what is REALLY meant. If Israel does not
mean the Jew to you. then what DOES Israel mean to you? Europeans
always talk about 'Arab land,' and 'Palestinian land,' as 'people land,'
but never speak of "Jewish land." They sanitize it... by calling it 'Israeli
land.' Because they well know that if they did call it "Jewish land" and
provided the insults that they so easily provide toward the 'Israeli,'who
ARE the Jews... it would demonstrate anti-Semitism very clearly. To
them... the 'Palestinians' are a people. But 'Israel' might as well be
populated by space aliens before they would call it 'Jewish land.'
>You made some lame remarks that you disagree with Sharon - I regard them
>as totally untrustworthy.
>
LOL... You've called the Jews THIEVES. Directly - in your words --
"reason why the Jews have been justified to expropriate the Palestinians their
land." No possibility of you trying to 'excuse' that by presuming when you
speak of Israel, you are not speaking of "the Jews."
And once again.. remember YOUR words -- "My mind is my mind and
not yours." Given that you've tried to place a "Star," on the U.S. Banner,
you should examine your own words as being "untrustworthy."
>> >> >> >See - I formed the phrases, and I know what I meant. I surely do not need
>> >> >> >anyone to tell me what I meant. Period.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> Wrong!!
>> >> >
>> >> >My mind is my mind and not yours. Thus, if there lies interpretatory
>> >> >bandwith in any of my phrases then I am the instance to clear up the
>> >> >exact meaning, and not you.
>> >> >
>> >> Not true at all.. You belong to humanity... as does your mind.
>> >
>> >Sheer Bull-Crap. Not mankind, but you personally are trying to hi-jack my
>> >mind by totally alienating an expression of mine.
>>
>> As I explained... your 'mind' is a bit too filthy for me to lay claim to
>> it. You may have it... I want nothing to do with it. But most certainly
>> you are part of the sum total of our species. But that is the problem
>> of our species, and not my problem. Repeating...to make it perfectly
>> clear --- I want nothing to do with your mind. I have not found a
>> single thought within it that I seem to agree with.
>
>You are trying continuously to dictate what any poster disagreeing with
>you really meant, by mutilating and twisting their statements.
>
Right now I am stating quite clearly that "I want nothing to do with
your mind." That is hardly mutilating and twisting your statement.
Your 'character assassination,' on my posting methods is only
your attempt to disguise the fact that your 'mind' has expressed
some very evil thoughts in arguments regarding the Jews in the
Middle East, and your attempts to 'dismiss' the holocaust as
simply 'something that happened in the past,' for which you claim
no one bears any blame or burden today. You cannot excuse what
I see as those evil thoughts by using the 'general attack on my
posting methods' that you now offer. I have found much evil
within YOUR posting methods. Thus, what you claim to find in
my posting methods is totally irrelevant to me. I make no claims
to your mind... the thought rather disgusts me...so please.. do
not attempt to make any claim to my mind, and how I find you
in my mind. Because I give you no part of my mind.
>> > You are pinning your
>> >own most dirty interpretation on my words and try to explain to me what I
>> >meant, just as if you would know better than myself what I intended to
>> >say.
>> >
>> LOL. You claimed your mind is 'your own,' and then you DEMANDED
>> OF MY MIND (and have now very deceptively again clipped that claim)
>> that -- "You think simply wrong." In demanding what "I MUST THINK"!!
>> Apparently trying to 'hi-jack' MY MIND. You hypocrite!
>
>Now this is nothing but ridiculous. If it *is* simply wrong what you
>think that I think, then my legitime answer is "You think simply wrong."
>
Yes... it quite certainly IS ridiculous. But it was YOU being ridiculous.
First stating that I have no claim to your mind... and then you staking a
claim to MY mind. The hypocrisy of your methods stinks to high heaven.
The fact that you are either too stupid to see it, or too devious to admit
it... says much about your use of a "star" to symbolize the Jews,
placed on the U.S. Banner.
Let's look again at the method you attempted to stake a claim to MY
mind, after asserting I could not do so to YOUR mind --
I posted ==> "I think you MEANT to imply with that "star" that the U.S.
was dominated by a "Jewish" influence." <==
Which was most certainly an expression from MY mind. WHAT I
THINK!!!
And you posted to that expression from MY mind ==> "You think simply
wrong" <==
Clearly YOU are telling ME what MY mind must find. But stated
before that I could not tell YOU what YOUR mind must find.
Hypocrite...hypocrite...hypocrite....
>> As I pointed out (and you clipped) -- "Apparently YOU are trying
>> to tell me MY mind. So I will repeat YOUR words, in the context
>> of my argument -- "My mind is my mind and not yours." If you
>> cannot now see the hypocrisy you often offer here... I don't know
>> how to further prove it to you. You set one standard for others,
>> but totally ignore that same standard for yourself."
>
>You are logically wrong. I can not hi-jack your thoughts, because you do
>express none.
LOL... If you think you can extract yourself from your proven hypocrisy
with an insult... think again. See above.
> You are writing pamphlets, which consist of moral
>accusations and character assassinations, but you do offer almost nothing
>to discuss.
>
I have often tried to discuss the situation in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict
with you. It is hopeless, since you so obviously hate the Jews. There IS
no middle ground for discussion with you! You find no legal existence
in Israel, which immediately places the dialog in a totally unreasonable
context. It is impossible to hold a meaningful dialog about an entity
that you believe is not legal. It is similar to believing I could argue
in support of a criminal... since you consider the Jew a thief. Given
that initial foundation that you assert, I can only argue that you are
either unreasonably hardheaded or have a more diabolical reason
for such a characterization of the Jew. At first I tried to REALLY hope
that you were simply hardheaded... but time - and your following
comments proved me wrong. I now feel your reasons are more
diabolical, and rest in anti-Semitism. Please do not try to 'hi-jack'
my mind by asserting I CANNOT come to such a conclusion. Since
I have done so... and my mind is my own.
>> .... Now,
>> >> perhaps we can return to MY QUESTION?
>> >
>> >Oh well... I do not hate the Jews. Happy to have cleared things up for
>> >you.
>> >
>> I don't believe you. The evidence to the contrary is just too overwhelming.
>.....
>
>Really...you don't believe me! Surprise, surprise. It was a mistake to
>pose this question, Meister. My answer is: I do not hate the Jews.
So you don't hate thieves. Since you have certainly called the Jews,
thieves. Of course, you don't hate murderers either -- so you could
well call the Jews, murderers, and still claim not to hate them.
>> >>> Yeah... I believe it was something like -- Israel has no legal future...
>
>> >Well...put this passage up.
>> >
>> Your words -- "Israel is factually occupied land, which belongs de jure to
>> the Palestinians"
>>
>Sorry...wrong again. My statement is referring to the origin of Israel,
>not to Israel's future. I clearly and repeatedly expressed that Israel
>became indispensable - a statement which does not fit in your pamphlets,
>thus, you are ignoring it and putting lies instead.
What does all that nonsense mean? You were speaking in the present
day context, certainly not simply in the creation of Israel, but the fact that
TODAY, you find no legal existence to Israel. You have over and
over claimed it was STOLEN from the Palestinians by the Jews. Is it now
your claim that if something is STOLEN LONG ENOUGH, that ownership
reverts to the thief?
PV
>
>K.
A Planet Visitor
Snifff....snifff...sniffff... Do I smell 'justification'?
>> ... Individual freedom is a threat
>> to the strength of the collective and so on and so on. You and I
>> Jurgen would not have survived very long in this society - we would
>> have probably been amongst the first to reside in Dachau but do
>> not kid yourself we would be in a minority not only then but in any
>> country at any time. ...
>
>Indeed there had been two possibilities in NS-Germany. Either to do what
>so many did and leave, or to give up any political thought and stay
>silent over the years. Attempts of resistance came close to suicide - too
>heavily had been riddled whole the institutions with NS-Spies. Most sad
>an example was the story of Hans and Sophie Scholl, Christoph Probst and
>some more young people, who had started some anti-NS-activities in
>Munich. Soon they had been denunciated, and the three mentioned had been
>executed.
>
Who wants to hear about your rewrites of history, Jürgen?
I want to hear why YOU -- IN PARTICULAR -- are so anti-Jewish?
PV
>Sincerely
>
>Jürgen
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
Nope. There is no justification for electing this man who did fully and
openly announce what his aims were. But there is an explanation why the
Weimarer Republic hadn't been successful.
K.
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
Your standpoint, please, to the deportations of 4,000,000 Palestinians.
What are the consequences which should be made in your opinion?
K.
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
<Kindergarten snipped>
I am yet awaiting your evaluation of the fact of 4,000,000 deported
Palestinians, and what your procedere would be in terms of deescalation.
K.
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
You and I
> >Jurgen would not have survived very long in this society - we would
> >have probably been amongst the first to reside in Dachau
>
> the first guards volunteering for duty. Very perceptive of you, John.
>
Well, my first thought was to publish your name, Sir. But you are not
worth to descend to.
What a sorry excuse for a human you are.
K.
John Rennie
The fact that you await an answer from PV to anything
you raise speaks highly in your favour considering the
gross insult he has inflicted on you in this thread. This
is the poster who was reduced to a gibbering fit because
another implied he was a fake anti-racist and yet he
feels no compunction in implying that you would have
been a Nazi camp guard if the circumstances arose.
You will note that beyond saying that the legitimate
points I made regarding the rise of H****r and the
weakness of democracies as opposed to totalistarian
states were 'poo' he raised no counter arggument.
The short reason for that is that there is none and
he just cannot ever agree that. Now go back to
arguing with Richard - far more productive.
A Planet Visitor
>
>"Clown" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message
>news:MPG.19e5fd146...@news.t-online.de...
>> In article <dqumnv4jjhe0ihsb0...@4ax.com>,
>> abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>>
>> <Kindergarten snipped>
>>
>> I am yet awaiting your evaluation of the fact of 4,000,000 deported
>> Palestinians, and what your procedere would be in terms of deescalation.
>>
>> K.
>
>The fact that you await an answer from PV to anything
>you raise speaks highly in your favour considering the
>gross insult he has inflicted on you in this thread.
Well deserved insults... considering he has called the Jews,
thieves. And demonstrated some of the most clear
anti-Semitism I have ever seen in AADP.
> This
>is the poster who was reduced to a gibbering fit because
>another implied he was a fake anti-racist and yet he
>feels no compunction in implying that you would have
>been a Nazi camp guard if the circumstances arose.
I find much in Jürgen's comments that would lend credence
to that idea, while to the contrary, there is not a solitary
post of mine that would lend credence to a claim that I
am some sort of 'fake anti-racist.' The motivations for
those two different attacks are obvious. JPB called me
a 'fake anti-racist' since that is the only ability he has to
argue the 'Great White Whale.' That is in evidence
because he provides a 'character assassination' toward
EVERYONE in the prosecution of her... and I was no
exception to that method, for no other reason than he
uses 'character assassination,' as an 'argument sophism' -
believing that the reader is too stupid or too gullible to
recognize that method. Thus, it was an attack without merit,
and everyone knew it. See --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/JPB.html
All of the comments I have EVER provided in reference to
racism, are direct realizations of Blacks still being prejudiced
against in the U.S. Which is a moral tragedy of immense
proportions. Or my personal recognition of racism in another
poster. Long before JPB ever posted a single comment
to AADP.
However, it is quite different in respect to Herr Hartwig,
since he has expressed some deep resentment toward
the Jews. I have proof that Jürgen harbors some very
deep and evil feelings toward Jews, FROM his comments.
Having called them thieves, and hoping that they are
absorbed into a 'Greater Palestine,' which would lead to
demands for conversion... efforts at expulsion...and finally
extermination as a people. While it is a given that
he quite easily accepts that the "star" in the context of
the Jews, when used by a German, as he used it has
'no meaning.' I will tell both you and him the same
thing that Christian X told the Nazis... "If the Germans
wants to put the yellow Jewish star in Denmark. I
and my whole family will wear it as a sign of the
highest distinction." So if Herr Hartwig wants to put
a "star" which symbolizes the Jew on the U.S. Banner,
I and my whole family will wear it as a sign of the highest
distinction. Jürgen would find such an admission on my
part something that HE would never consider doing.
You connect the dots.
>You will note that beyond saying that the legitimate
>points I made regarding the rise of H****r and the
>weakness of democracies as opposed to totalistarian
>states were 'poo' he raised no counter arggument.
Counter-arguments? What nonsense is that? When
one makes the most ridiculous distortions possible,
the counter-arguments are obvious to any reasoning
mind. You were speaking of ONE democracy, not
simply a 'fragile democracy,' but one which could hardly
be seen as anything other than a 'non-existent democracy.'
One which emerged from the ashes of the 'Great War' as
not a democracy... but the closest a country can come to
anarchy == the Weimar Republic. The years of that
'republic' demonstrate the decadence which consumed
Germany. So clearly shown in the art generated by
the Bauhaus, and other literary images, which historically
always possess the eye that future generations recognize as
Cassandra-like. Images that spoke directly to an
underlying decadence that the average German both
hated and needed, because of being a people in the
throes of hyper-inflation, total joblessness, and society
collapse. Brought about by the economic disasters of
the Weimar Republic, and the unbelievable economic
demands made on that country by the European 'winners'
of the 'Great War.' You extrapolated that one example
as a claim that it demonstrates the inherent weakness
of ALL democracies, presuming that ALL will choose a
'police state' if they see more security. And that's total
poo. Maybe you believe that people will abandon
democracy when given a clear choice between democracy
and a 'police state,' but no one will ever convince me of
that. Police states emerge from CHAOS, rather than true
democracy.
The rise of Hitler has many reasons... bringing up some of
those reasons might be seen as bigoted, but at that time the
Germans needed the STRUCTURE and ORDER that is so
great a part of their national character. It was a philosophy
that dominated pre-Nazi Germany. Hitler was the inevitable
climax of a centuries-long philosophic viewpoint, based on
some fundamental ideals, such as the perception of the
necessity for self-sacrifice and the underlying belief,
remaining from the Kaiser, and even before, that the state
was always above the individual. In a way, a fundamental
renouncing of democracy, even before the rise of the
totalitarian rule of Hitler. The need for a 'leader,' and a
strong leader, quite separate from any idea of a 'democratic
leader.' The German of today, has of course, totally abandoned
such ideas, and no longer accepts any form of totalitarian
concept of governmental rule. The idea of a German again
calling any political leader they might select -- 'Fuhrer,' is
more repugnant to them... then it is to a non-German. It was
a harsh lesson learned... but one that was positively learned,
and will never return, IMHO.
Hitler happened to be the only person around who seemed
to provide the fundamental ideals the Germans were looking
for... not a democracy... but structure and order. Obviously,
the rise of Hitler in Germany was initially accompanied
by the structure and order the Germans needed and
demanded, thus insuring his popularity, as his hold on the
population grew firmer and firmer. Each step taking away
some measure of democratic freedom. While his hate for
the Jews formed a large part of his rise... since the Germans
needed a scapegoat badly to blame their misfortunes
on, and anti-Semitism was ALWAYS a great part of the
'excuse' for EVERY misfortune throughout the entire history
of Europe... not only in Germany. And certainly not only
in the 20th Century.
Nor did Germany suddenly become a military behemoth
overnight, and the totalitarian nature of the Nazis
instantly transform the country into such a dominant
military machine.. The indifference of Western European
nations, their concern more with their own internal
economic and social problems, and their mounting fear
in confronting Germany led directly to permitting Hitler
to become what he became.
>The short reason for that is that there is none and
>he just cannot ever agree that. Now go back to
>arguing with Richard - far more productive.
>
TRANSLATION ==> I believe I'll permit Herr Hartwig
to apply his patriotic white-wash to his own person.
Disregarding every example of his anti-Semitism, while
arguing some gibberish having nothing to do with Herr
Hartwig's anti-Semitic comments, but certainly feeling
self-assured in my attempts to appear a 'historically
didactic' person. <==
As always... nice talking to you, John. But please do
not blind yourself to the truth.
PV
A Planet Visitor
>Le Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:03:01 GMT, Jigsaw1695 <jigsa...@earthlink.net> a écrit :
>
>{ snip 'JPB' expertly demonstrating FuckWit's history as _the_ most
> compulsive liar on news:alt.activism.death-penalty }
>
>> Go back to sleep, lad. Have you been smelling you're own fart's?
>
>How original, Philip J B**********************************
>**************************************
>
How evil, Desmond Coughlan....address unknown...probably unemployed
and now living rough on the street. But given you have admitted that there is a
better chance that you would murder than would Theodore Frank,
an evil not wholly unexpected from you. See -
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1r_D9.204037%24fa.4431379%40twister.tampabay.rr.com
The Nameless One's words -- "Indeed, the chances of _me_ murdering
someone, are greater than the chances that Theodore Frank would have
done so."
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
I won't snip because none of the above addresses the point I made.
'What was that?' I hear you ask breathlessly. The
fact that a totalitarian state can be made ready to go
to war whereas a democratic state cannot.
>
> >The short reason for that is that there is none and
> >he just cannot ever agree that. Now go back to
> >arguing with Richard - far more productive.
> >
>
> TRANSLATION ==> I believe I'll permit Herr Hartwig
> to apply his patriotic white-wash to his own person.
> Disregarding every example of his anti-Semitism, while
> arguing some gibberish having nothing to do with Herr
> Hartwig's anti-Semitic comments, but certainly feeling
> self-assured in my attempts to appear a 'historically
> didactic' person. <==
>
> As always... nice talking to you, John. But please do
> not blind yourself to the truth.
>
> PV
>
Remember I too believe that the Jews 'stole' Palestine
away from its rightful 'owners'. Does that make me
anti-Semitic?
danh
news:bZ9fb.38$Eb4....@newsfep2-gui.server.ntli.net...
[...]
> Remember I too believe that the Jews 'stole' Palestine
> away from its rightful 'owners'. Does that make me
> anti-Semitic?
Just curious, John. What do you call the destruction and expulsion of
Israel a couple of millenia ago? Did they not have a right to their
country? Do Jews not have a right to their homeland?
A Planet Visitor
Hitler does not explain why the Weimar Republic wasn't successful!
Rather, it is the other way around. The failure of the Weimar Republic
explains why Hitler was successful.
The Weimar Republic wasn't successful because the Germans did not
wish it to be successful, given the chaos of the times. Nor was it
'democracy.' His only announced 'aims' were to bring order from
that chaos, and find a scapegoat for it. Scapegoats which were the Jews,
and the Treaty of Versailles. Those were what the Germans wanted
more than 'democracy.' So in respect to being 'justified,' the population
at THAT TIME felt fully 'justified' in finding him the right choice.
PV
>K.
A Planet Visitor
And those 6,000,000 Jews of the holocaust? What are the
consequences which should be made in your opinion? Oh, of course...
they don't actually NEED a homeland... they were all slaughtered!
Haven't you read my words? Obviously not... Since you again <clipped>
them without mentioning that you had. The 'consequences' are no greater
and no less than the deportation of any human being, from the land he lives
on. The U.N. is well-aware of the expulsion of Jewish refugees from
Arab countries... 'the forgotten millions.' See the report presented to
the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in July 2002 --
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:WF22JLa3KTUJ:www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/e06a5300f90fa0238025668700518ca4/2fb737ca43b65818c1256c0800385ca4/%24FILE/G0214420.doc+Jewish+deportations+Arab&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
and
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-littman120302.asp
These are the humans that you would rather forget about. While
you would call the Jews, thieves, yet ignoring the fact that they had
no homeland as a people. What makes you IGNORE the
persecution of the Jew which has been going on a lot longer than the
deportations of the Palestinians from Israel? Would you 'volunteer'
Bavaria, to provide that homeland? What exactly do YOU propose
is the future of the Jew in that region?
So once again my words that you clipped --
A Planet Visitor
I am awaiting your explanation for the slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews,
and what your methods are to deny you have a burden in respect to
that slaughter, as a human being.
PV
>K.
A Planet Visitor
LOL.. You would only demonstrate your own perverse nature, sport.
I will NOT give you permission to do so, thus, your doing so will simply show
YOU for what you are. Are you now into 'blackmail' to 'shut me up'?
>What a sorry excuse for a human you are.
>
I am not the one who claims no burden as a fellow human being for the slaughter
of 6,000,000 human beings. You are.
PV
>K.
A Planet Visitor
No.. the fact that you 'quoted' Goering, and made some
absurd conclusion that people would abandon democracy
for the 'security' of a police-state. My point is that they
abandon CHAOS when they choose the 'security' of a
police state. You pointed out one particular country,
in such chaos, and atttempted to extrapolate it into a
larger truism which is simply NOT a truism.
>
>>
>> >The short reason for that is that there is none and
>> >he just cannot ever agree that. Now go back to
>> >arguing with Richard - far more productive.
>> >
>>
>> TRANSLATION ==> I believe I'll permit Herr Hartwig
>> to apply his patriotic white-wash to his own person.
>> Disregarding every example of his anti-Semitism, while
>> arguing some gibberish having nothing to do with Herr
>> Hartwig's anti-Semitic comments, but certainly feeling
>> self-assured in my attempts to appear a 'historically
>> didactic' person. <==
>>
>> As always... nice talking to you, John. But please do
>> not blind yourself to the truth.
>>
>> PV
>>
>
>
>Remember I too believe that the Jews 'stole' Palestine
>away from its rightful 'owners'. Does that make me
>anti-Semitic?
>
Quite clearly... if you call 'the Jews,' as a people -- thieves -- which
you certainly do in your words -- that most certainly does
represent an anti-Semitic statement. By every definition of the
word which is "one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews." Unless
you have no hostile feeling toward EVERY thief. See -
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/OED%20Online%20-%20anti-Semitism.htm
As with St. George when we argued strongly as to his racist
statement that "Whites are the most mediocre race on the planet.
They excel at nothing, and are physically, mentally, emotionally,
philosophically and culturally inferior to other breeds of homo
sapiens. There is a high proportion of genes allowing extreme
violence and cruelty running through them, as well as an unjustified
superiority complex."
Whether Mark was (or is) a racist or not... his statement is
clearly racist... simply placing "Blacks" for "Whites" demonstrates
that fact... in absolute terms. So... your statement IS anti-Semitic.
Whether that makes you an anti-Semite or not is not that discernable
to me. It takes more than that. And I have more than that in the
case of Jürgen. Much more. Do you believe that the Jews run
U.S. Foreign Policy? Do you believe that Israel has no legal
existence? Do you believe that Israel should cease to exist,
and a State such as the "Greater State of Palestine" be created
to incorporate all the land now occupied by Palestinians and Jews,
and the Palestinians be placed in control of all that land? Do
you believe past U.N. resolutions have no legal meaning, while
present day U.N. resolutions are legally binding? Do you
believe that we as humans, have no burden to those 6,000,000
Jews exterminated in the holocaust?
PV
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
Are you attempting to suggest that the deportation of the rightful
inhabitants of Palestine was a just reprisal for the murder of
4 or 6 million Jews by the Third Reich? Do you think it right
that Arabs should be made to pay for the sins of Europeans?
John Rennie
"> >
> >
> >Remember I too believe that the Jews 'stole' Palestine
> >away from its rightful 'owners'. Does that make me
> >anti-Semitic?
> >
> Quite clearly... if you call 'the Jews,' as a people -- thieves -- which
> you certainly do in your words -- that most certainly does
> represent an anti-Semitic statement. By every definition of the
> word which is "one who is hostile or opposed to the Jews." Unless
> you have no hostile feeling toward EVERY thief. See -
> http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/OED%20Online%20-%20anti-Semitism.htm
Not all Jews were involved in the takover (theft) of Palestine.
I have met many who think it was an illegal act whatever
the US dominated UN of 1947 called it.
>
> As with St. George when we argued strongly as to his racist
> statement that "Whites are the most mediocre race on the planet.
> They excel at nothing, and are physically, mentally, emotionally,
> philosophically and culturally inferior to other breeds of homo
> sapiens. There is a high proportion of genes allowing extreme
> violence and cruelty running through them, as well as an unjustified
> superiority complex."
>
> Whether Mark was (or is) a racist or not... his statement is
> clearly racist... simply placing "Blacks" for "Whites" demonstrates
> that fact... in absolute terms. So... your statement IS anti-Semitic.
> Whether that makes you an anti-Semite or not is not that discernable
> to me. It takes more than that. And I have more than that in the
> case of Jürgen. Much more. Do you believe that the Jews run
> U.S. Foreign Policy?
Best ask Mr Perle and Mr Wolfowitz about that. Please don't say
that these two gentlemen do not have a great say in present
day American foreign policy.
Do you believe that Israel has no legal
> existence?
I choose not to use the word 'legal' it is meaningless. She
exists thererfore she exists.
Do you believe that Israel should cease to exist,
> and a State such as the "Greater State of Palestine" be created
> to incorporate all the land now occupied by Palestinians and Jews,
> and the Palestinians be placed in control of all that land? Do
> you believe past U.N. resolutions have no legal meaning, while
> present day U.N. resolutions are legally binding? Do you
> believe that we as humans, have no burden to those 6,000,000
> Jews exterminated in the holocaust?
We have to live with our mistakes just as Britain has to live
with the mistake of 'planting' Protestants in Ireland some
3 or 4 hundred years ago so we, the world, must
live with the insane creation of a European state in the
middle of an Arab continent.
marika
> Well, well, well. Another demonstration of your holocaust denial.
I never realized you were so in for the underdog . . . I LIKE!!
>You
> now argue that a "star" has no significance in respect to the holocaust!!!
You make me all the more glad I went to the trouble this morning . . .
> What exactly DOES have any significance to you in respect to the
> holocaust?
And in an odd segue, the Sunday Atl-J did a large look at child
prostitution here locally.
They featured a couple victims, and did some other stories. Bottom
line is, the GA laws are absolutely shocking, especially to be in any
year after 1950, in my humble opinion. Teenage 'hos are jailed,
while, of course, the pimps are MAYBE spanked. I DON'T FREAKING GET
THIS!!! How is a ten year old's immaturity somehow a match in court
against that of man--- M.A.N. twice or more her age???????? There are
absolute children in jail on prost and loitering charges, because
their acts were undeniable. Yet the pimps had insufficient
evidence/witnesses . . .
DAG.
mk5000
'This is a common sentiment these days, that the stupid or gullible
DESERVE to
be taken advantage of or otherwise USED!!! :(
Why?
Doesn't this open up a whole can of worms whereby homes/etc. could be
built"--GAPOPE
A Planet Visitor
No... I am saying the world must be looked at in relative terms.
If Jürgen would argue that the deportation of a number of Palestinians
is reason for Jews to be called thieves, reason for the U.S. to be
characterized as a 'country run by Jews,' and reason for Israel to
be called 'occupied eternally Palestinian land,' than I am quite justified
to argue that the slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews by the Germans,
is reason those Jews 'qualify' for the 'legal right' to the German "State
of Bavaria." Who DOES pay for the 'sins of Europeans'? It seems
that only the American is paying the bill for those sins, according to
some Europeans. While being flagellated by those Europeans for
doing so in the same moment.
Certainly, Jürgen's failure to recognize his burden to the holocaust,
not only as a German, but as a human, is one facet. Certainly,
his attempts to translate his feelings toward the Jews into the
perception that the U.S. is a 'Jewish run country,' with his use
of the "star," on the U.S. flag, is another. I also find from him an
undercurrent of denial of Palestinian terrorist acts... believing they
are 'justified,' in view of the 'occupation of Palestinian land by
the Jews,' in his view.
Now, in respect to the general view of Europeans, I will again
say this very plainly. There is in my view, still a very strong
anti-Jewish sentiment among many Europeans. This has
translated into a strong 'denial' of that being so, but I find that
those denials are rather pathetic to one such as I, viewing it
from an external observation post.
Everyone is well-aware that anti-Semitism has been in existence,
and very strong, for thousands of years in Europe. Anyone who
believes it could be erased in one or two generations is totally
naive, or in complete denial. Just as anyone who believes that
racism could be erased in one or two generations in the U.S. is
also totally naive, or in compete denial.
I find this translates, just as Jürgen tries to translate it, into
'accusing' the U.S. of having a policy favorable to the Jews,
and unfavorable to the Palestinians, BECAUSE of the
anti-Semitic belief that the U.S. is 'run by the Jews,' rather
than being based on a principle which respects the right to
legal existence of the state of Israel (which is obviously a
Jewish state). Thus, it is quite easy for Jürgen, and other
European to 'hide' the anti-Semitism that still exists toward
the Jews, by referring to the U.S. policy, expecting everyone
to believe it does not translate into anti-Semitism, and denying
that it contains anti-Semitism, while in fact they see NO
DIFFERENCE in attacking the U.S. for its foreign policy in
that region and attacking the Jews. Jürgen especially, sees
them as one and the same, yet finds a deception in it, which
permits him to deny it is anti-Semitism. But in fact, I find
almost all of his anti-American statements to be rooted in
that underlying notion.
I have seen NO European in this group, ever express any
unbiased view of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It is ALWAYS
the 'fault of the Jews.' But no European comes out and states
it thusly... It is always the 'fault of the U.S.,' or the 'fault of the
Israelis.' I am gratified that my current comments have brought
out the realization that when one speaks of Israel... they are
not speaking ONLY of a 'country,' but of a people. Just as
when they speak of the Palestinian and the Arab as a people,
and not a country. It seems to me there is an attempt to
DEPERSONALIZE the Jew... while insuring that the Palestinian
is seen as a 'human being.' Doesn't that remind you of a time
when it was considered quite acceptable to do so to the
Jew?
I would not deny that various members of those people, on
both sides, are capable of some very evil atrocities. But I
simply will not permit anti-Semitism to sneak into that argument,
under the guise of exaggerating the atrocities committed by the
Jews, to the exclusion of even mentioning the atrocities committed
by the Palestinians and the Arabs. Both sides egged on by
what can only be called their = 'evil leaders.'
In fact, in the past I characterized myself as a 'devil's advocate'
in this argument, intending to express an opinion that hoped to
put a more balanced perspective on that conflict, because
I had never seen any European express anything whatsoever
in support of the existence of the Jews in the state of Israel.
And I believe Jürgen rather 'jumped on that,' with the 'argument'
that because I tried to balance the view of that conflict by
mentioning Palestinian atrocities it meant I WAS obviously
"Mister Diaboli." See --
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=astrbe%24fqi%2406%241%40news.t-online.com
Does that seem as if HE is putting a balanced perspective on that
conflict? He can apparently call ME "Satan," while I must not
call HIM an "anti-Semite," because... sssshhhhhh... He's a German....
don't mention the Jews.
PV
A Planet Visitor
I'm asking you. Do you presume because Jews are in the U.S.
Government, it means they control the foreign policy of that
government? If so... the Catholic church is in 'grave danger' of
being taken over by the Jews... given that the newly elected
Cardinal of Paris, who is considered one of the most eligible
for election to the Papacy, when John Paul II passes, is a 'born
Jew.' Do you believe Jews should be excluded from certain
high level positions in the U.S. government? Do you believe
their being Jews, biases their objectivity? I characterize your
comment as anti-Semitic in nature... expressing a clear hostility
toward Jews in U.S. government positions, and Jews in general,
presuming that their views are influenced by a presumed prejudice
on their part. You understand that any such idea holds a view
similar to those also having very clear anti-Semitic views. See --
http://abbc.com/islam/english/jewishp/usa/perlewolffeith.htm
> Please don't say
>that these two gentlemen do not have a great say in present
>day American foreign policy.
>
Please don't presume that their 'say' directs overall U.S. policy,
or that it is bigoted against Palestinian interests. Doing so is
clearly anti-Semitic in nature.
>
>Do you believe that Israel has no legal
>> existence?
>
>I choose not to use the word 'legal' it is meaningless. She
>exists thererfore she exists.
>
There are a great number of words that you have claimed
are 'meaningless.' Yet they exist in the English language.
If you keep that up.. all our words will be 'meaningless' to
you. Of course... I agree that all dialog here is 'meaningless'
in a larger sense... but we do try to believe our opinions have
at least 'some meaning' to them. Certainly, I think one of the
most 'meaningful' words here... given that the topic of this
group is the DP... is the word "legal."
>> Do you believe that Israel should cease to exist,
>> and a State such as the "Greater State of Palestine" be created
>> to incorporate all the land now occupied by Palestinians and Jews,
>> and the Palestinians be placed in control of all that land? Do
>> you believe past U.N. resolutions have no legal meaning, while
>> present day U.N. resolutions are legally binding? Do you
>> believe that we as humans, have no burden to those 6,000,000
>> Jews exterminated in the holocaust?
>
>We have to live with our mistakes just as Britain has to live
>with the mistake of 'planting' Protestants in Ireland some
>3 or 4 hundred years ago so we, the world, must
>live with the insane creation of a European state in the
>middle of an Arab continent.
>
So you agree that the German "State of Bavaria" should have
been ceded to the Jews in 1945, immediately after the German
surrender, as the new 'homeland of the Jewish refugees.'
After all... why not? The Russians gained East Prussia,
for the great number of Russians who lost their lives in that
war. Perhaps the world WOULD be a better place today,
if that had taken place.
PV
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >Well, I am still awaiting your standpoint. When exactly is it justified
> >> >> >and when is it not justified to deport people from their homeland? If the
> >> >> >UN or the US or aPV say so, perhaps?
> >> >> >
> >> >> You might address that question to those who have deported the Jews.
> >> >> They deserve a homeland, just as any other humans do. But you
> >> >> seem to believe they do not. Given that you really don't care about
> >> >> what happens to them.
> >
> >Your standpoint, please, to the deportations of 4,000,000 Palestinians.
> >What are the consequences which should be made in your opinion?
>
> And those 6,000,000 Jews of the holocaust? ......
I can not see how the deportations of the Palestinians can be justified
with the Holocaust. Explain.
>
> Of course, any deportations of Palestinians from Israel that resulted from
> its creation can never be presumed as 'right.' ........
>
> However; none of this emotional input, has any meaning in respect to
> the legal creation of the State of Israel. Deportation of any kind are
> 'not right.'
Interesting. The deportations are not right, but the creation of the
State of Israel, which meant deportations, was right. Clear up your
standpoint, Meister.
K.
>
>
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
snip
> >>
> >> Whether Mark was (or is) a racist or not... his statement is
> >> clearly racist... simply placing "Blacks" for "Whites" demonstrates
> >> that fact... in absolute terms. So... your statement IS anti-Semitic.
> >> Whether that makes you an anti-Semite or not is not that discernable
> >> to me. It takes more than that. And I have more than that in the
> >> case of Jürgen. Much more. Do you believe that the Jews run
> >> U.S. Foreign Policy?
> >
> >Best ask Mr Perle and Mr Wolfowitz about that.
>
> I'm asking you. Do you presume because Jews are in the U.S.
> Government, it means they control the foreign policy of that
> government? If so... the Catholic church is in 'grave danger' of
> being taken over by the Jews... given that the newly electedh
> Cardinal of Paris, who is considered one of the most eligible
> for election to the Papacy, when John Paul II passes, is a 'born
> Jew.'
It's just too remarkable what you consider to be apt comparisons:
the above is not. Do you think it strange that the US Government
although it is quick to condemn (rightly) suicide atrocities by the
Palestinians does not condemn the killings of Palestinians by the
Israeli forces. However terrible the bombs are the number of
Palestinians killed by Israelis since the beginning of the interfada
some two years ago outnumbers Israelis killed by the Palestinians
by some three to one. The US government (whether it is
Republican of Democrat) is NOT even handed; it is strongly
biased in favour of the Israelis and a contributory reason for
that bias is the power of the Jewish lobby. Yes I do consider
that this lobby has had great power over American foreign
policy and that their influence has not been in the interests of
America but what they consider to be the interests of Israel.
Do you believe Jews should be excluded from certain
> high level positions in the U.S. government? Do you believe
> their being Jews, biases their objectivity? I characterize your
> comment as anti-Semitic in nature... expressing a clear hostility
> toward Jews in U.S. government positions, and Jews in general,
> presuming that their views are influenced by a presumed prejudice
> on their part. You understand that any such idea holds a view
> similar to those also having very clear anti-Semitic views. See --
> http://abbc.com/islam/english/jewishp/usa/perlewolffeith.htm
If the Americans you speak of owe a greater allegiance to Israel
than they do to the United States then you will have to admit
that that allegiance makes them biased. You cannot serve
two masters.
>
> > Please don't say
> >that these two gentlemen do not have a great say in present
> >day American foreign policy.
> >
> Please don't presume that their 'say' directs overall U.S. policy,
> or that it is bigoted against Palestinian interests. Doing so is
> clearly anti-Semitic in nature.
I do so say and you can call me anti-Semitic as you undoubtedly
will until the cows come home. That doesn't make it true but
when have you been that bothered about the truth anyway, PV?
> >
> >Do you believe that Israel has no legal
> >> existence?
> >
> >I choose not to use the word 'legal' it is meaningless. She
> >exists thererfore she exists.
> >
> There are a great number of words that you have claimed
> are 'meaningless.' Yet they exist in the English language.
> If you keep that up.. all our words will be 'meaningless' to
> you. Of course... I agree that all dialog here is 'meaningless'
> in a larger sense... but we do try to believe our opinions have
> at least 'some meaning' to them. Certainly, I think one of the
> most 'meaningful' words here... given that the topic of this
> group is the DP... is the word "legal."
It, 'legal' that is, is meaningless when it comes to whether
or not the usurpation of a country. The borders of Poland
were moved 200 miles to the west by the Russians: it wasn't
legal - nobody cared enough to do anything about it.
>
> >> Do you believe that Israel should cease to exist,
> >> and a State such as the "Greater State of Palestine" be created
> >> to incorporate all the land now occupied by Palestinians and Jews,
> >> and the Palestinians be placed in control of all that land? Do
> >> you believe past U.N. resolutions have no legal meaning, while
> >> present day U.N. resolutions are legally binding? Do you
> >> believe that we as humans, have no burden to those 6,000,000
> >> Jews exterminated in the holocaust?
> >
> >We have to live with our mistakes just as Britain has to live
> >with the mistake of 'planting' Protestants in Ireland some
> >3 or 4 hundred years ago so we, the world, must
> >live with the insane creation of a European state in the
> >middle of an Arab continent.
> >
> So you agree that the German "State of Bavaria" should have
> been ceded to the Jews in 1945, immediately after the German
> surrender, as the new 'homeland of the Jewish refugees.'
> After all... why not? The Russians gained East Prussia,
> for the great number of Russians who lost their lives in that
> war. Perhaps the world WOULD be a better place today,
> if that had taken place.
>
> PV
>
No I think America and European countries without a
recent history of anti-Semitism should have absorbed
the 2 or 3 million or so refugees. They would not have
wanted to live in Russia, Poland or Germany. Their
presence would have enriched the culture of any
country that took them in whereas their presence in
a country that is not theirs by right is an affront to a
whole continent and a perpetual cause for grievance.
danh
[...]
Unless you've ceased to pretend you don't read my posts, these questions are
an exercise in futility, but why not try to give a response anyway.
> It's just too remarkable what you consider to be apt comparisons:
> the above is not. Do you think it strange that the US Government
> although it is quick to condemn (rightly) suicide atrocities by the
> Palestinians does not condemn the killings of Palestinians by the
> Israeli forces. However terrible the bombs are the number of
> Palestinians killed by Israelis since the beginning of the interfada
> some two years ago outnumbers Israelis killed by the Palestinians
> by some three to one.
Do the Israelis attack civilians or those involved in planning and carrying
out acts of terror? Do you not distinguish between the two in your support
of terrorists? Given how the Arab countries have had their butts whipped
repeatedly by Israel in straight-up confrontations, it's a measure of
cowardice that they send children to attack innocent civilians.
The US government (whether it is
> Republican of Democrat) is NOT even handed; it is strongly
> biased in favour of the Israelis and a contributory reason for
> that bias is the power of the Jewish lobby. Yes I do consider
> that this lobby has had great power over American foreign
> policy and that their influence has not been in the interests of
> America but what they consider to be the interests of Israel.
OTOH, the principle reason might be that Israelis don't generally go around
killing people at the market, buying dinner. Whether you agree or not, the
destructive, radical nature of the Palestinian agenda has done more damage
to their cause than anything else. You do recall Munich, 1972, no? And the
too-many-to-recount-here incidents since?
[...]
> If the Americans you speak of owe a greater allegiance to Israel
> than they do to the United States then you will have to admit
> that that allegiance makes them biased. You cannot serve
> two masters.
None do. It is only your presupposition that allows you to make such a
statement. Jews in government have served many kings and prime ministers
for centuries, since they were driven from their own country in the first
place. This is the same sort of innuendo that JFK was subjected to by those
who feared he would defer to the Pope. It was garbage then, it's garbage
now.
[...]
> No I think America and European countries without a
> recent history of anti-Semitism should have absorbed
> the 2 or 3 million or so refugees. They would not have
> wanted to live in Russia, Poland or Germany. Their
> presence would have enriched the culture of any
> country that took them in whereas their presence in
> a country that is not theirs by right is an affront to a
> whole continent and a perpetual cause for grievance.
The number of European countries without a "recent history of anti-Semitism"
could be numbered on one hand, perhaps even a couple of fingers.
Why don't you want to allow the Jews to have a homeland? - which was their's
anyway, and from which they were expelled. Do you live in such fear of a
tiny portion of the world's population that you must continue to deny them
what was their's? I don't think you're consciously anti-Semitic, but please
explain why this position isn't, at root, anti-Semitic?
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> "John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:cdigb.778$b93...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
[snip Daniel's tiny tears over everyone ignoring him]
> Do the Israelis attack civilians or those involved in planning and carrying
> out acts of terror?
Both, Daniel. Or didn't you know that?
> Do you not distinguish between the two in your support
> of terrorists? Given how the Arab countries have had their butts whipped
> repeatedly by Israel in straight-up confrontations, it's a measure of
> cowardice that they send children to attack innocent civilians.
Seems to me to be not mere cowardice. They get their 'butts whipped'
so it seems to be rather silly to engage in straight-up confrontations.
Therefore, so-called "asymmetrical warfare" is the only option available
to those who wish to actually have any impact without dying for nought.
We may well not approve of it but it is a grim reality and, possibly,
the only option for some.
> OTOH, the principle reason might be that Israelis don't generally go around
> killing people at the market, buying dinner.
Actually they do. Routinely. Whether this is deliberate or otherwise
is open to debate but the fact is that they _do_.
> Why don't you want to allow the Jews to have a homeland?
I don't believe that John proposes that Israel should somehow be abolished.
I'm pretty sure that he's on record as supporting Israel's right to exist.
He just seems to feel, as I do, that its creation where it is was something
of a tragedy.
> which was their's
> anyway, and from which they were expelled.
Oh. Not unlike the Native Americans who were displaced (in some cases
systematically) by white settlers in North America, then?
[snip ham-fisted attempt at character assassination]
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"They've got to be protected/All their rights respected ((o))
Until someone we like can be elected." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
A Planet Visitor
>In article <c2ksnv09jtm70vt1b...@4ax.com>,
>abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >Well, I am still awaiting your standpoint. When exactly is it justified
>> >> >> >and when is it not justified to deport people from their homeland? If the
>> >> >> >UN or the US or aPV say so, perhaps?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> You might address that question to those who have deported the Jews.
>> >> >> They deserve a homeland, just as any other humans do. But you
>> >> >> seem to believe they do not. Given that you really don't care about
>> >> >> what happens to them.
>> >
>> >Your standpoint, please, to the deportations of 4,000,000 Palestinians.
>> >What are the consequences which should be made in your opinion?
>>
>> And those 6,000,000 Jews of the holocaust? ......
>
>I can not see how the deportations of the Palestinians can be justified
>with the Holocaust. Explain.
>
What a surprise! I cannot see how the holocaust can be justified by the
deportations of the Palestinians. Explain.
In fact, your 4,000,000 Palestinian deportations is a gross distortion
of the actual number. Even rather biased sources put the number at under
a million... generally between 700,000-800,000. For example -- see
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=8022
http://www-tech.mit.edu/V115/N40/arab.40w.html
http://www.pakistanlink.com/nayyer/06082001.html
The fact that this number has risen to about 4,000,000 since those deportations
has been the population growth. In fact, it can be argued that the underlying
cause of such displacements was the attempt of five Arab armies to destroy
every Jew in that region, reminiscent of what had been attempted only a few years
before. Nor are Arab countries not reluctant to accept Palestinian displaced
persons, instead urging them to 'die for Palestine,' rather than open their own
doors to those Palestinians. Certainly not that many were involuntarily removed,
by any stretch of the imagination. Yet I believe not a single one of those
6,000,000 Jews slaughtered in the holocaust were anything other than
non-voluntary removals. But then again... you see that as having nothing to
do with the legal creation of the State of Israel.
>>
>> Of course, any deportations of Palestinians from Israel that resulted from
>> its creation can never be presumed as 'right.' ........
>>
>> However; none of this emotional input, has any meaning in respect to
>> the legal creation of the State of Israel. Deportation of any kind are
>> 'not right.'
>
>Interesting. The deportations are not right, but the creation of the
>State of Israel, which meant deportations, was right. Clear up your
>standpoint, Meister.
>
At least you haven't called me SATAN for having argued that both sides in
the conflict are often at fault and that Israel has a legal right to exist, as you've
done before.
Clear up your standpoint, Jürgen. The creation of the State of Israel provided
a homeland for the remainder of those refugee Jews not slaughtered in the
holocaust. What would you propose should have been done for them?
Given them Bavaria, perhaps? Also, a great number of Jews were deported
from Arab lands. See the report presented to the U.N. Commission on
Human Rights in July 2002 --
http://www.unhchr.ch/huridocda/huridoca.nsf/AllSymbols/2FB737CA43B65818C1256C0800385CA4/$File/G0214420.pdf?OpenElement
and see --
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-littman120302.asp
http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/isreport/janfeb01/assets.htm
http://christianactionforisrael.org/isreport/june02/forgotten.html
http://www.jimena-justice.org/conference/malaka.htm
http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0901/jpn0901a.htm
PV
>K.
Clown
abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
> On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:45:21 +0200, Clown <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> >In article <c2ksnv09jtm70vt1b...@4ax.com>,
> >abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
> >
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >Well, I am still awaiting your standpoint. When exactly is it justified
> >> >> >> >and when is it not justified to deport people from their homeland? If the
> >> >> >> >UN or the US or aPV say so, perhaps?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> You might address that question to those who have deported the Jews.
> >> >> >> They deserve a homeland, just as any other humans do. But you
> >> >> >> seem to believe they do not. Given that you really don't care about
> >> >> >> what happens to them.
> >> >
> >> >Your standpoint, please, to the deportations of 4,000,000 Palestinians.
> >> >What are the consequences which should be made in your opinion?
> >>
> >> And those 6,000,000 Jews of the holocaust? ......
> >
> >I can not see how the deportations of the Palestinians can be justified
> >with the Holocaust. Explain.
> >
> What a surprise! I cannot see how the holocaust can be justified by the
> deportations of the Palestinians. Explain.
What ridiculous a reply. You are claiming persistently that deportations
are not right, whilst the foundation of the State of Israel, which could
not be performed without deporting the Palestinians, is right. Your claim
- your explanation:
_______
> >
> >Interesting. The deportations are not right, but the creation of the
> >State of Israel, which meant deportations, was right. Clear up your
> >standpoint, Meister.
> >
> At least you haven't called me SATAN for having argued that both sides in
> the conflict are often at fault and that Israel has a legal right to exist, as you've
> done before.
Well, name-calling is your domain, Sir. I surely did not call you S.
>
> Clear up your standpoint, Jürgen.
My standpoint has been cleared up over and over - it is yours which lacks
clarity most profoundly.
WHERE IS YOUR STANDPOINT, MEISTER??
K.
John Rennie
"Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <sa...@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:HIogb.139392$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> In article <blsfvl$gkh$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, danh wrote:
> > "John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:cdigb.778$b93...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
snip
>>
> I don't believe that John proposes that Israel should somehow be
abolished.
> I'm pretty sure that he's on record as supporting Israel's right to exist.
> He just seems to feel, as I do, that its creation where it is was
something
> of a tragedy.
Confirmed.
A Planet Visitor
>In article <lr94ov86q5u7rpt0g...@4ax.com>,
>abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>> On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 22:45:21 +0200, Clown <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <c2ksnv09jtm70vt1b...@4ax.com>,
>> >abc...@zbqytr.ykq says...
>> >
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >Well, I am still awaiting your standpoint. When exactly is it justified
>> >> >> >> >and when is it not justified to deport people from their homeland? If the
>> >> >> >> >UN or the US or aPV say so, perhaps?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> You might address that question to those who have deported the Jews.
>> >> >> >> They deserve a homeland, just as any other humans do. But you
>> >> >> >> seem to believe they do not. Given that you really don't care about
>> >> >> >> what happens to them.
>> >> >
>> >> >Your standpoint, please, to the deportations of 4,000,000 Palestinians.
>> >> >What are the consequences which should be made in your opinion?
>> >>
>> >> And those 6,000,000 Jews of the holocaust? ......
>> >
>> >I can not see how the deportations of the Palestinians can be justified
>> >with the Holocaust. Explain.
>> >
>> What a surprise! I cannot see how the holocaust can be justified by the
>> deportations of the Palestinians. Explain.
>> ......
>
>What ridiculous a reply.
Little wonder that you would think so. But you are only ignorant of the facts.
The holocaust was the driving force that created the State of Israel. Had it not
occurred, there is little doubt that Zionism would still be only words on paper,
and the Palestinians would still occupy land that has no meaning in the sense
of 'ownership,' since all humans own all the land.
As the real tragedy of the holocaust unfolded at the end of WW II, the guilt of
decades of European anti-Semitism forced the creation of Israel in 1948. But
it seems only to have given that European anti-Semitism a new focus... that of
hating the 'creation of the State of Israel,' which is still a clear expression of
hate for the Jews. But again, given another mask behind which to hide that
anti-Semitism.
> You are claiming persistently that deportations
>are not right, whilst the foundation of the State of Israel, which could
>not be performed without deporting the Palestinians, is right. Your claim
>- your explanation:
>
Of course it could be performed without deporting the Palestinians. In
fact it WOULD have been performed without deporting the Palestinians,
had five Arab nations NOT tried to once again exterminate the Jews. On the
day that Israel was born, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq
immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were clearly spelled out by
the Secretary-General of the Arab League, stating "This will be a war
of EXTERMINATION..." Had the Arabs accepted the creation of Israel
not a single Palestinian would have necessarily become a refugee. See --
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/1948toc.html
>_______
>
>
>> >
>> >Interesting. The deportations are not right, but the creation of the
>> >State of Israel, which meant deportations, was right. Clear up your
>> >standpoint, Meister.
>> >
>> At least you haven't called me SATAN for having argued that both sides in
>> the conflict are often at fault and that Israel has a legal right to exist, as you've
>> done before.
>
>Well, name-calling is your domain, Sir. I surely did not call you S.
>
Of course you did... see
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=am53vc%24m9s%2402%241%40news.t-online.com
You called me "Mister Diaboli," with the clear meaning that this implies.
>>
>> Clear up your standpoint, Jürgen.
>
>My standpoint has been cleared up over and over - it is yours which lacks
>clarity most profoundly.
>
>WHERE IS YOUR STANDPOINT, MEISTER??
>
My standpoint is that Israel has a legal right to exist, and does exist in every
legal sense. Nor are the Jews - thieves -- as you have called them. What is
YOUR standpoint, my repugnant anti-Jewish opponent? Of course... your
'standpoint' is that the Jew must be exterminated from any sense of a homeland
in the Middle-East. Simply a continuation of the policies held for centuries by
many Europeans... conversion...expulsion...extermination....
PV
>K.
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
When you are wrong you are so very wrong that it's difficult to know where
to start in order to correct you. Let's try. I take this quote from the
Department of Jewish Zionist Education: Section
http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/mandate.html
British Mandate 1920-1946
"Under the terms of the Mandate, Britain's principal obligation was to
facilitate the implementation of the Balfour Declaration of November 2,
1917, which pledged "the establishment of a national home for the Jewish
people."(2) No territorial restrictions whatsoever - neither east nor west
of the Jordan River were placed on the Jewish National Home. In fact, the
Mandate stipulated that Britain was to "facilitate Jewish immigration under
suitable conditions and shall encourage close settlement by Jews on the
land."(3)"
The State of Israel was the child of the National Home for the Jews a
creation of the
British long before the Holocaust.
"
> As the real tragedy of the holocaust unfolded at the end of WW II, the
guilt of
> decades of European anti-Semitism forced the creation of Israel in 1948.
But
> it seems only to have given that European anti-Semitism a new focus...
that of
> hating the 'creation of the State of Israel,' which is still a clear
expression of
> hate for the Jews. But again, given another mask behind which to hide
that
> anti-Semitism.
Hatred is your word; unfortunate is mine. The creation of the State of
Israel
was an unfortunate occurance. It's existence may well cause more deaths
than the holocaust but those deaths will be spread over centuries if the
world
as we know it exists for that long.
>
> > You are claiming persistently that deportations
> >are not right, whilst the foundation of the State of Israel, which could
> >not be performed without deporting the Palestinians, is right. Your claim
> >- your explanation:
> >
> Of course it could be performed without deporting the Palestinians. In
> fact it WOULD have been performed without deporting the Palestinians,
> had five Arab nations NOT tried to once again exterminate the Jews.
The pathetic thing is that you really believe all this Zionist propaganda.
There was never any intention of 'sharing' Palestine after the British
left. The British knew it, the Foreign Office denounced in America
for being 'arabic' were certain that the Palestinians would be deported.
On the
> day that Israel was born, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq
> immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were clearly spelled out by
> the Secretary-General of the Arab League, stating "This will be a war
> of EXTERMINATION..." Had the Arabs accepted the creation of Israel
> not a single Palestinian would have necessarily become a refugee. See --
> http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/1948toc.html
What a source; so unprejudiced. A source that has the bare faced cheek to
mention the Bernadotte plan without also mentioning that he was murdered
by the Hagganah. How on earth can you think that the Arabs could agree
to the importation of an European state into their midst? Their pathetic
military performance merely shows the superiority of European military
to that of the Orientals. A fact proved time and again by European and
American imperialists. The only way to defeat such opposition is to use
guerrilla tactics as is being shown in far too many areas of the world..
nonsense hyperbole snipped.
A Planet Visitor
Quite right... BAVARIA... the feeding ground upon which Hitler began his
rise to power... was the ONLY truly moral and legal ground on which the
State of Israel should have been created.
Given that such was not created... that did not relieve the moral necessity to
create such a homeland consistent with some historical significance to the Jews.
The ancient land of Hebrew origin was quite reasonably chosen, given no other
historically significant land existed.
PV
Elli
> > "John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:cdigb.778$b93...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
> [snip Daniel's tiny tears over everyone ignoring him]
>
> > Do the Israelis attack civilians or those involved in planning and carrying
> > out acts of terror?
>
> Both, Daniel. Or didn't you know that?
Daniel knows very little indeed. Didn't you know that?
<rest of Daniel's unbiased take on the War of Palestinian Independence
snipped>
> I'm pretty sure that he's on record as supporting Israel's right to exist.
I wonder how many daft Merkins scums like Daniel support Palestine's
'right to exist'? Double-standard bastards to a man and no mistake,
them Merkins.
> He just seems to feel, as I do, that its creation where it is was something
> of a tragedy.
>
> > which was their's
> > anyway, and from which they were expelled.
>
> Oh. Not unlike the Native Americans who were displaced (in some cases
> systematically) by white settlers in North America, then?
Yes, and as Daniel is on the record as being a big fan of the IRA, I
wonder what his reaction would be to the Cheyanne Republican Army
blowing up his local 'Dunkin Donuts'? Ho ho ho!!
> [snip ham-fisted attempt at character assassination]
>
> Mr Q. Z. D.
*****
Elli
Elli
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 11:19:22 +0100, "John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <sa...@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:HIogb.139392$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> In article <blsfvl$gkh$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>, danh wrote:
> >> > "John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:cdigb.778$b93...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
> >
> >snip
> >>>
> >> I don't believe that John proposes that Israel should somehow be
> abolished.
> >> I'm pretty sure that he's on record as supporting Israel's right to exist.
> >> He just seems to feel, as I do, that its creation where it is was
> something
> >> of a tragedy.
> >
> >Confirmed.
> >
> Quite right... BAVARIA... the feeding ground upon which Hitler began his
> rise to power... was the ONLY truly moral and legal ground on which the
> State of Israel should have been created.
And there it is, ladies and gentlemen, 'A Planet Visitor' has finally
conceded that the founding of the State if Israel on what was/is
occupied Palestinian land was both immoral and illegal.
<snip>
*****
Elli
A Planet Visitor
Without the holocaust... I believe it would still be only words on paper. You
may presume that it would have become a reality. But that opinion is
only an opinion... since the holocaust WAS, and always will. Thus, you will
never convince me it would have become a reality. Obviously, without the
U.N. resolution creating Israel there would be no Israel, and I believe without
the holocaust there would still be no U.N. resolution having created Israel.
The great influx of Jewish refugees would not have followed WW II without the
holocaust.
>"
>> As the real tragedy of the holocaust unfolded at the end of WW II, the
>guilt of
>> decades of European anti-Semitism forced the creation of Israel in 1948.
>But
>> it seems only to have given that European anti-Semitism a new focus...
>that of
>> hating the 'creation of the State of Israel,' which is still a clear
>expression of
>> hate for the Jews. But again, given another mask behind which to hide
>that
>> anti-Semitism.
>
>Hatred is your word; unfortunate is mine.
If you do not see anti-Semitism, or the holocaust as hatred, then your definitions in
the English language are quite different than mine. But we have already
determined that. You never call it what it is... as you characterized racist slurs
and Ol' Racist Nev comparing Dachau with Guantanamo as only 'insensitive.'
> The creation of the State of
>Israel
>was an unfortunate occurance. It's existence may well cause more deaths
>than the holocaust but those deaths will be spread over centuries if the
>world as we know it exists for that long.
Don't be absurd. The Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years,
and if they did not have that homeland that persecution would not abate in
the slightest. Thus, one can equally offer that the creation of the State of
Israel will SAVE more lives than the continuation of a lesser holocaust
spread over the centuries. Primo Levi perhaps placed the holocaust in
the proper perspective, demonstrating that the murders of certain ethnic groups
over centuries cannot be compared to the holocaust -- "At no other place
or time has one seen a phenomenon so unexpected and so complex: never
have so many human lives been extinguished in so short a time, and with
so lucid a combination of technological ingenuity, fanaticism, and cruelty."
It would take much less than even one century to extinguish all Jews, at
the rate they were being exterminated in the holocaust.
The Jews have just as much a right to the ancient land of Judea, and the
Negev desert as any people on this planet, including each and every Palestinian.
The original diaspora notwithstanding. I have no doubt that the world... as
we know it... will not be the same in centuries to come. One needs only
to look at the singular past century to realize that fact. But the extermination
of the Jews, which is what many Arabs suggest as a 'final solution' to the
'problem of the Middle East,' is certainly not an acceptable choice in any
sense of our humanity toward our fellow man. I certainly fault the Jews for
the many atrocities they have committed in Palestinian lands... just as I
fault those Palestinians who believe that terrorism will achieve their ends...
when it has been shown to achieve just the opposite.
>> > You are claiming persistently that deportations
>> >are not right, whilst the foundation of the State of Israel, which could
>> >not be performed without deporting the Palestinians, is right. Your claim
>> >- your explanation:
>> >
>> Of course it could be performed without deporting the Palestinians. In
>> fact it WOULD have been performed without deporting the Palestinians,
>> had five Arab nations NOT tried to once again exterminate the Jews.
>
>The pathetic thing is that you really believe all this Zionist propaganda.
The pathetic thing is that you really IGNORE all the Arab non-propaganda,
which has a purpose not the least bit dissimilar to the holocaust, except
for the 'lack of expertise' in achieving that end -- See --
http://home.earthlink.net/~onetimeuse/AntiSemitism.htm
>There was never any intention of 'sharing' Palestine after the British
>left. The British knew it, the Foreign Office denounced in America
>for being 'arabic' were certain that the Palestinians would be deported.
>
You seem to be privy to a great deal of opinion that you offer as FACT.
Nonetheless... it simply remains an opinion.
>>On the
>> day that Israel was born, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq
>> immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were clearly spelled out by
>> the Secretary-General of the Arab League, stating "This will be a war
>> of EXTERMINATION..." Had the Arabs accepted the creation of Israel
>> not a single Palestinian would have necessarily become a refugee. See --
>> http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/1948toc.html
>
>What a source; so unprejudiced. A source that has the bare faced cheek to
>mention the Bernadotte plan without also mentioning that he was murdered
>by the Hagganah.
What a load of rubbish. My source was the Jewish Virtual Library. And if you
had bothered to look beyond that short history of the 1948 war, you would find
that library provides an extensive discussion of the murder of Count Bernadotte...
See --
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/folke.html
The Jewish group responsible for the murder of Count Bernadotte, in fact,
was often at odds with the Haganah. Your 'knowledge' of the historical
events of that time, are deeply prejudiced by your fanatical beliefs that
the Jews have 'no right' to be in the Middle East, despite the fact that they
do. You only accept the 'right' of Israel to exist... because you recognize that
to deny that 'right' would be supporting the extermination of the Jews in
the Middle East, as you realize that there is no other way than extermination
that they will ever be removed again. Thus, your 'accepting' that 'right to
exist' of the Jews in the Middle East, falls a bit short of believability.
> How on earth can you think that the Arabs could agree
>to the importation of an European state into their midst? Their pathetic
>military performance merely shows the superiority of European military
>to that of the Orientals. A fact proved time and again by European and
>American imperialists. The only way to defeat such opposition is to use
>guerrilla tactics as is being shown in far too many areas of the world..
>
Long live the revolution!!! You become more prejudiced each day, yourself.
Clearly, you have no idea what events brought about the creation of Israel,
and little concern for the fate of the Jews. The very fact that you now
demonstrate SUPPORT for TERRORISM... which you again in typical
euphemistic fashion call "guerrilla tactics," shows that you haven't totally
shed your communist roots.
>nonsense hyperbole snipped.
Of course...
PV
j.rennie1
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
You can say that again.
But we have already
> determined that. You never call it what it is... as you characterized
racist slurs
> and Ol' Racist Nev comparing Dachau with Guantanamo as only 'insensitive.'
Which is what it was as well as being incorrect.
>
> > The creation of the State of
> >Israel
> >was an unfortunate occurance. It's existence may well cause more deaths
> >than the holocaust but those deaths will be spread over centuries if the
> >world as we know it exists for that long.
>
> Don't be absurd. The Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years,
> and if they did not have that homeland that persecution would not abate in
> the slightest.
I flatly deny that statement; indeed the majority of the present day
persecution
of the Jews is activated by the existence of Israel.
Thus, one can equally offer that the creation of the State of
> Israel will SAVE more lives than the continuation of a lesser holocaust
> spread over the centuries.
If one has one's head firmly stuck in the sand one can offer it but
so expect that many to accept it. All that the creation of Israel
has done is to transfer European persecution of the Jews to
the Arabs.
Primo Levi perhaps placed the holocaust in
> the proper perspective, demonstrating that the murders of certain ethnic
groups
> over centuries cannot be compared to the holocaust -- "At no other place
> or time has one seen a phenomenon so unexpected and so complex: never
> have so many human lives been extinguished in so short a time, and with
> so lucid a combination of technological ingenuity, fanaticism, and
cruelty."
Ah - he uses the term 'technological ingenuity' which is unique to the
Nazi holocaust because that horror belongs to the 20th century.
However, previous centuries have given us plenty of examples
of sudden extinctions of races and cultures. The reduction of the great
civilisation of the Abbacids after the destruction of Damacus by the
Mongols is probably comparable to the holocaust in its intensity. Haroun
El Raschid ruled a country of some 25,000,000; within a generation
only a million or so survived in Syria. Ceasar killed perhaps
3,000,000 Gauls and what Africanus Scipio did to the Carthaginians
doesn't bear repeating.
>
> It would take much less than even one century to extinguish all Jews, at
> the rate they were being exterminated in the holocaust.
>
> The Jews have just as much a right to the ancient land of Judea, and the
> Negev desert as any people on this planet, including each and every
Palestinian.
Bollocks, PV. They left and another race took their place and that
should have been the end of it.
Oh yes, of course the Irgun were at odds with the Haganah. So much
at odds that their leader became Prime Minister of Israel. They
worked hand in hand.
Your 'knowledge' of the historical
> events of that time, are deeply prejudiced by your fanatical beliefs
Fanatical belief! What are you on about, PV? I happen to disagree
with the founding of Israel. Is that opinion a fanatical belief? Am
I to take it that when I happen to disagree with you I automatically
turn into a fanatic? I don't call you a fanatic for your views on
Israel and if you dare to call me fanatic again for any of the views I
express on any matter in this news group I shall cease to have
any interest in any discussion with yourself. I kid you not.
that
> the Jews have 'no right' to be in the Middle East, despite the fact that
they
> do. You only accept the 'right' of Israel to exist... because you
recognize that
> to deny that 'right' would be supporting the extermination of the Jews in
> the Middle East, as you realize that there is no other way than
extermination
> that they will ever be removed again. Thus, your 'accepting' that 'right
to
> exist' of the Jews in the Middle East, falls a bit short of believability.
>
> > How on earth can you think that the Arabs could agree
> >to the importation of an European state into their midst? Their pathetic
> >military performance merely shows the superiority of European military
> >to that of the Orientals. A fact proved time and again by European and
> >American imperialists. The only way to defeat such opposition is to use
> >guerrilla tactics as is being shown in far too many areas of the world..
> >
> Long live the revolution!!! You become more prejudiced each day,
yourself.
> Clearly, you have no idea what events brought about the creation of
Israel,
> and little concern for the fate of the Jews.
I have demonstrated time and again that my knowledge of the
middle east and of the events leading to the creation of Israel is
superior to that of your own - not a high standard to achieve
but still better than a poster who originally believed that
the Arabs statrted the diaspora.
It is my concern for the fate of the Jews that is the cause of
my misgivings over the creation of Israel which I might remind you
I do NOT blame America for. I blame English politicans
almost entitrely for it's creation.
The very fact that you now
> demonstrate SUPPORT for TERRORISM... which you again in typical
> euphemistic fashion call "guerrilla tactics," shows that you haven't
totally
> shed your communist roots.
Indeed, you may well have given new life to them, PV.
FitzHerbert
<snip>
> > The Jews have just as much a right to the ancient land of Judea, and the
> > Negev desert as any people on this planet, including each and every
> Palestinian.
>
> Bollocks, PV. They left and another race took their place and that
> should have been the end of it.
FuckWit should be well happy with that, 'j. rennie1': you seem to
imply the existence of a 'Jewish race'.
<snip FW denouncing Rennie as a 'fanatic'>
> The very fact that you now
> > demonstrate SUPPORT for TERRORISM... which you again in typical
> > euphemistic fashion call "guerrilla tactics," shows that you haven't
> totally
> > shed your communist roots.
>
> Indeed, you may well have given new life to them, PV.
Don't be so flippent, Rennie!
If you recall what FuckWit's adopted country has done (and continues
to do) to your commie breathren, you will realise quite how
threatening and sinister the FuckWit is trying to be.
Why not ask FW how many communists he's killed personally with his
bare hands?
I shudder to think!
*****
Hope this helps,
Neville FitzHerbert, esq.
JIGSAW1695
>Subject: Re: PV and the holocaust
>From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
>Date: 10/17/2003 2:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bhn561-...@zeouane.org>
>
>le 17 Oct 2003 10:52:12 -0700, dans l'article
><f85d58f0.03101...@posting.google.com>, FitzHerbert
><FitzHerb...@hotmail.com> a dit ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Why not ask FW how many communists he's killed personally with his
>> bare hands?
>
>
==============================
Do now Dezi is implying that PV killed Dr. King.
What a fucking Twat Dez is. How can he make such a claim and get away with it?
Do any of the liberal thinkers out there find anything wrong with what he is
claiming?
Earl? Donna? Euro? Anyone?
Jigsaw
JIGSAW1695
>Message-id: <qsv561-...@zeouane.org>
>
>le 17 Oct 2003 18:27:37 GMT, dans l'article
><20031017142737...@mb-m04.aol.com>, JIGSAW1695
><jigsa...@aol.com> a dit ...
>>>> Why not ask FW how many communists he's killed personally with his
>>>> bare hands?
>
>>>Martin Luther King wasn't a communist, Fitz !
>
>>
>> What a fucking Twat Dez is. How can he make such a claim and get away with
>it?
>>
>> Do any of the liberal thinkers out there find anything wrong with what he
>is
>> claiming?
>>
>> Earl? Donna? Euro? Anyone?
>
>to some of the others, to help him !!!
>
>No, of course FuckWit didn't kill Martin Luther King by himself, SFB. He
>is, after all, a deathie, and your scummy kind only ever get others to do
>their dirty work for him. However, allow me to repost my classic and
>masterful destruction of FuckWit,
==============================
"Classic and masterful"??
Dezi, your argument consisted of calling him a fuckwit, a retard as well as
several other verbal insults. Your "argumentive powers" are sparce...if they
exist at all.
All I can say is that you need some psychotherpy to improve your overinflated
value of yourself.
Im not kidding Dezi, you have a very serious inferiority problem that is
displayed by your constant need to belittle your opponents.
Jigsaw
Euro
"JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com>
??????:20031017171335...@mb-m06.aol.com...
(snipped)
>
> Dezi, your argument consisted of calling him a fuckwit, a retard as well
as
> several other verbal insults. Your "argumentive powers" are sparce...if
they
> exist at all.
Do you imply that PV, whose posts are mainly consisting in calling his
opponents "murderer lovers", "racist anti-semites", "spastic" or other kinds
of verbal insults, display "sparce argumentative powers"?
Euro
j.rennie1
"Euro" <vs...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8021f0f3e363be4b...@news.meganetnews.com...
His abuse does not excuse your or any other poster's abuse, Euro.
Euro
"j.rennie1" <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
??????:Iw8kb.104$2r6.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
No. It motivates them.
Euro
j.rennie1
Are we suffering from a translation problem here, Euro?