Re: Wicca's Theatrics and Commercialism
Sidney Lambe
ren <ren...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Theatrics in Wicca
> It is absolutely true that some Wiccans are not restricted to any one
> mythological source. They may also use fictional sources in their
> rituals. Wicca was founded on eclectic and creative principles when it
> was designed by Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente. It is also true
> that there are some Wiccans trying to recreate rituals and ways from
> Celtic and Teutonic folklore. But this is at best a guess as Europe
> was the "Land of Legend" at the time.
You are referring to the original 'pagans'. They were a 'shamanic'
culture and thus similar to 'shamanic' cultures everywhere, many
of which exist even today.
Rituals have very little to do with the true 'shamanism'.
> There are few written documents
> publicly available about pre-Christian spirituality in Europe. It is
> perfectly fine for Wiccans to be theatrical and dramatic in their
> rituals and personal cosmologies. Fictional or non-fictional
> inspiration is equally effective in helping a Wiccan make contact with
> the divine in nature, in the self, and with the Gods.
What helps people get in touch with "the divine in nature" are techniques
based on meditation, not costume parties in the woods.
You are desperately trying to rationalize what are really just excuses
to party. Social events. And entertaining substitutes for real
'spiritual' work.
Which, not coincidentally, require people to buy a bunch of useless
crap.
It's like this "god/godess" nonsense. God does not have a penis
or a cunt. Duh. Sex/gender has nothing to do with any rational
and informed discussion of God.
But the "god/goddess" thing sure makes for some tittilating
rituals and conversations.
This cheap commercialism at its worst.
> Wicca's Commercialism You get what you pay for.
Said the merchant to the thief.
'Spiritual' development cost nothing but time and effort. Anyone
who tells you otherwise is either ignorant or a con artist.
The only material thing that might be a help is a notebook and
a pen.
> If I craft a very beautiful work of art, and you buy it,
> gvreat! Empower it with your own spell. If you pay me to
> empower the art for you, you get what you pay for.
You couldn't empower your own asshole, you shopping mall mage.
> going to care about your wish. I'm not going to put any real
> effort into it. I'm not even going to be able to understand
> your needs. You get what you pay for which is nothing good for
> you. Do your own ritual and save your money. I have always
> thought spell-work for money is dumb. But if people are willing
> to pay for it, let 'um.
I thought that people got what they paid for. That's what you
say above.
No one can cast a spell for you. You have to do it yourself.
That's a basic fact of magick.
A fact that would-be priests and charlatans like would prefer
wasn't widely known, for obvious reasons.
> I know Wiccans who charge and I'm not
> going to preach at them anymore. They are adults and have
> made their own decisions. I approve of selling your crafts. I
> don't approve of selling your magick.
> Why don't you just teach the person who bought your craft-work
> how to conduct a ritual themselves.
Because rituals are not a part of real magickal practices.
They are a part of the useless theatrical woo-woo that the
ignorant and the deceitful believe, or pretend to believe,
are a part of magick.
> As far as purchasing cloaks, wands, and all the
> other Harry Potter trademarked things, I see nothing wrong with
> it.
Of course you don't.
But knowledgable and ethical people do. It is not only a waste of
money, but the idea that this stuff will actually help someone
master magick is destructively misleading. And why would you buy
it otherwise.
> Nor do I see anything wrong with buying books, crystals, or
> anything else that will help you with your rituals and spells.
That doesn't surprise me.
You don't know shit about magick.
>
> Wiccan Members and Wiccan Clergy I have never been a member of
> a Wiccan Coven where the Clergy lorded their positions over
> regular members who do not have the time or the commitment to
> maintain the gathering places, clean the grounds, and plan
> events.
None of which have anything to do with magick or 'spiritual'
development in general.
> Being a Wiccan clergy member is not about having power.
Being a priest (by whatever name) is about having power. By
definition.
> It is actually a lot of hard work. Clergy members are group
> organizers. It is difficult work. If you've never organized an
> event, then you won't understand just how much of a sacrifice
> people make in their lives to serve their Wiccan communities.
And they get a lot of attention and fame and, often, a nice
living, from it. Or more.
For doing nothing, really, but arranging social events.
> A Wiccan Priest Addresses Sid the Troll
You behave much more like a troll than I do. And your chief
supporter is one of the worst trolls on the usenet.
> I want to thank you for giving your comments about the
> theatrics and commercialism found within Wicca.
Now there's another one of your characteristically dishonest
remarks.
You obviously just want me to disappear so that you can go
back to your silly con game unmolested.
Why else would you have repeatedly threatened to kill me
with magick, posted numerous malicious lies about me, and
harassed me like a common troll?
Duh.
> I do not deny that my religion contains these elements.
Unfortunately, your religion contains little else. For anyone
interested in real 'spiritual' advancement, it is a waste of
time.
> Many of the books written about Wicca are just made up, basic
> or pulp. However, Wicca is not another commercial religion and
> Christianity in a dress.
That's Christianity in new-age clothing, and it is definitely
that and it is definitely commercial.
It's a consumer religion for people who want threatrics instead
of real 'spiritual' development, which takes solitary work and
requires personal changes. It's for people who want to pretend
they are 'spiritually' evolved rather than actually doing it.
So they pay their priests (in various kinds of coin) to tell
them that they are in fact evolved, when all they've done
is donned a costume.
> Nor are Wiccans as vapid as you are making them out to be.
Yes they are. The ones that aren't are cheap con artists
like you. And you aren't more than a baby step above vapid.
> You share something with the Christians. You Sid, generalize
> and demonize groups and people that you do not like.
Do you mean like the way you demonize me and other people
you don't like?
But you are wrong. I am a very objective person. If something
walks like a duck and talks like a duck, I call it a duck.
> You try to put people in a box that disagree with your
> religious views.
No. That isn't true.
But you don't care what the truth is. You have demonstrated your
basic dishonesty on this group many times.
You just hate anyone who refuses to believe anything you post
or asks you to demonstrate your alleged magickal abilities or
who posts ideas that contradict yours.
And you viciously attack them. This is a matter of public
record, you pathetic clown.
> That makes you a big hypocrite. Everybody knows it when reading
> your comments. And to some extent they know that I am also
> hypocritical. I'm just typing it all down so this newsgroup has
> a record of it.
>
This newsgroup has a record of you threatening to use magick to
kill people who dare to contradict you or ask you to demonstrate
the magickal skills you claim to have or refuse to believe anything
you choose to post.
And what have learned about you? That you can't kill people with
magick, obviously, and therefore probably can't do anything else
with magick.
That you are a sociopath who wants to kill people for excercising
their rights of free speech.
In-other-words, that you are a criminally insane charlatan.
Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.
Sidney Lambe
hy_b...@shaw.ca <hy_b...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Sidney Lambe wrote:
>> #Followup-To set to alt.religion.wicca
>> ren <ren...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Theatrics in Wicca
>>> It is absolutely true that some Wiccans are not restricted to any one
>>> mythological source. They may also use fictional sources in their
>>> rituals. Wicca was founded on eclectic and creative principles when it
>>> was designed by Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente. It is also true
>>> that there are some Wiccans trying to recreate rituals and ways from
>>> Celtic and Teutonic folklore. But this is at best a guess as Europe
>>> was the "Land of Legend" at the time.
>>
>> You are referring to the original 'pagans'. They were a 'shamanic'
>> culture and thus similar to 'shamanic' cultures everywhere, many
>> of which exist even today.
>>
>> Rituals have very little to do with the true 'shamanism'.
>
>
> is a ritual.
Word games. Petty word games.
>
>>> There are few written documents
>>> publicly available about pre-Christian spirituality in Europe. It is
>>> perfectly fine for Wiccans to be theatrical and dramatic in their
>>> rituals and personal cosmologies. Fictional or non-fictional
>>> inspiration is equally effective in helping a Wiccan make contact with
>>> the divine in nature, in the self, and with the Gods.
>>
>> What helps people get in touch with "the divine in nature" are techniques
>> based on meditation, not costume parties in the woods.
>>
>> You are desperately trying to rationalize what are really just excuses
>> to party. Social events. And entertaining substitutes for real
>> 'spiritual' work.
>>
>> Which, not coincidentally, require people to buy a bunch of useless
>> crap.
>>
>> It's like this "god/godess" nonsense. God does not have a penis
>> or a cunt. Duh. Sex/gender has nothing to do with any rational
>> and informed discussion of God.
>
> But you do have a penis or a cunt or something, don't you? You also have
> other feminine and masculine parts and energies of yourself including
> hormones and experiences and feelings and spirit, etc.
And I'm not God.
If you'd just realize that the rock sitting on the ground outside
your window is just as much a part of God as you are, and just
as important to God as you are, you'll be on your way to understanding
why sex/gender have no place in a discussion of the subject of God.
It has a place in a cheap consumer religion trying to appeal
to spoiled consumers.
>> But the "god/goddess" thing sure makes for some tittilating
>> rituals and conversations.
>>
>> This cheap commercialism at its worst.
>>
>>> Wicca's Commercialism You get what you pay for.
>>
>> Said the merchant to the thief.
>>
>> 'Spiritual' development cost nothing but time and effort. Anyone
>> who tells you otherwise is either ignorant or a con artist.
>
>
> Ritual takes time and effort and symbolizes to oneself and awareness
> that you are taking this time and effort because you want to be a part
> of this magickal current and experience. It allows you to have an on
> button and to open doors you might not necessarily experience otherwise.
You like your rituals, like you like your favorite TV shows, and
are determined to make them seem necessary.
They are not. And believing that they are is a serious impediment
to real 'spiritual' advancement.
>
> ** This doesn't mean you won't experience these energies and doorways in
> other ways, but the experience can become available to you through
> ritual and drama and theatrics.
I've been to plenty of wiccan/pagan rituals, in buildings and in the
woods. I know people who have been attending them and putting them
on for decades. Wonderful pageantry. Excellent theatre.
And everyone goes "Oh. That was so _powerful_ <blah blah>" and they
go home and it doesn't change them in any meaningful way. It's
just entertainment. They are still the same people they were decades
ago and are beginning to realize that they have been wasting their
time.
You may as well just go to the movies.
Spoiled consumers don't want to do the real, solitary work that's
involved in learning magick. They want to toss down their credit
card and buy 'enlightenment'.
Doesn't work.
Nor do elaborate rituals performed alone do anything but waste
time.
Never seen anyone into ritual magick who could make a bird fly.
All they can do is talk a great game and put on great show.
The whole idea that phsyical actions of any kind _cause_ magick
is erroneous, and that's what rituals are based on.
>> The only material thing that might be a help is a notebook and
>> a pen.
>
> You can bring those to your rituals if you want :D
>
>
>>> If I craft a very beautiful work of art, and you buy it,
>>> gvreat! Empower it with your own spell. If you pay me to
>>> empower the art for you, you get what you pay for.
>>..rituals are not a part of real magickal practices.
>>
>> They are a part of the useless theatrical woo-woo that the
>> ignorant and the deceitful believe, or pretend to believe,
>> are a part of magick.
>
>
> Some people learn and experience by taste, or by touch or by smell or
> hearing or seeing. These rituals allow you to experience with every
> sensory organ and part of your body and spirit and open awareness.
Save it for the peasants.
Again, you are simply using cheap sophistry to rationalize useless
rituals that have nothing but entertainment value.
And this is something that all commercial/consumer religions do.
Brings in the bucks....
>
>
>>> Wiccan Members and Wiccan Clergy I have never been a member of
>>> a Wiccan Coven where the Clergy lorded their positions over
>>> regular members who do not have the time or the commitment to
>>> maintain the gathering places, clean the grounds, and plan
>>> events.
>>
>> None of which have anything to do with magick or 'spiritual'
>> development in general.
>
> It allows you to take on aspects greater than yourself for a time. It
> strengthens and shapes your vessel in a way that you are able to
> experience an influx of energy different from other situations.
I've seen all this stuff you are parroting on a hundred webpages.
It's crap.
>
>
>>> Being a Wiccan clergy member is not about having power.
>>
>> Being a priest (by whatever name) is about having power. By
>> definition.
>
>
> Well, or about being the one that is responsible for "something" (for
> this ritual at least). In that regard yes, it is about having a certain
> power that one is responsible for bringing to the ritual.
The primary job of a priest is to convince his followers that they
need him/her because he/she has abilities they don't have. Knowledge
they don't have.
But all they have is a line of bullshit such as you are giving
us here.
>>> It is actually a lot of hard work. Clergy members are group
>>> organizers. It is difficult work. If you've never organized an
>>> event, then you won't understand just how much of a sacrifice
>>> people make in their lives to serve their Wiccan communities.
>>
>> And they get a lot of attention and fame and, often, a nice
>> living, from it. Or more.
>
> I don't know about Wiccan's getting money and fame out of it, since I
> haven't been to a Wiccan gathering. However, I do have a ceremonial
> magick background and I do believe in ceremony as a way to access the
> subconscious and as a way to raise energy and spirit/Spirit/spirits.
>
> As a shaman, I also experience ritual of the mind.
>
> Yes, I can see that it might make fame and attention for those involved.
>
> I was thankful for the people who put rituals on for myself and other
> participants.
>
> And when it was my turn I felt a sense of sharing and participation and
> community and the want to make it as beautiful and put as much effort
> into it as my own favourite ceremonies that I had attended in the past
> (part of that might be ego to want to put on something beautiful for
> another, however I truly did want to give the newer folk (and people who
> were not in office at that time) an exceptional experience that made it
> worth coming to the ceremony for. (Although that is a bit of ego as
> well, because that isn't the reason we should go to these ceremonies.)
> Part of watching someone else (many some one elses’) do the rituals
> before you and after you is to see how differently other people can
> experience their “power” that they are bringing to the ritual and how
> differently their experience can shape the overall energy of the room
> and other participants experiences.
>
> For instance, I enjoyed very much the fact that ice was put in the water
> of my first few rituals as an observer and that I experienced the
> extreme cold rather than the blandness of other less extreme sensory
> experiences that lukewarm water can have to it. It took me many years to
> understand the significance of these different experiences and the
> thought of why this should change something for me and what that means
> to have these different experiences.
>
> There is also the fact that going to these ceremonies over and over
> teaches our subconscious mind the energies and movements that exist so
> that they take part by themselves in our structures.
>
> You very much feel the spirit of whatever it is you will be representing
> (as either officer of one taking part as an observer), even before the
> rituals begin and it heightens these experiences and you take on new
> awareness’s and your senses are heightened.
>
> The symbols and movements are doorways of energy that we open and close
> in order to experience something different.
>
> ps. I thought the Wiccan Ceremony you posted previously was beautiful. :D
What utter crap.
You are obviously a priestess, or a wannabee priestess, probably engaged
in trying to make money selling your non-existent magickal abilities.
I repeat: I have never met anyone who was into ritual magick who
could demonstrate any magickal abilities at all.
They can bullshit like you and put on great shows, but they can't
do any magick.
You learn magick by 'meditating'. Alone. You don't learn it by
dressing up in costumes and doing theatre and spouting nonsense
like the above, that you read in some fantasy novel.
Or on some website put together by people who can't do any magick
at all.
What you are talking about is basically psuedo-magick as a drug.
It just makes you feel good at the moment. Like a good movie.
Sidney Lambe
Seon Ferguson <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They are theatrics in every religion aren't they? What about the jerks who
> go on TV saying God wants you to give them money? God is all powerful, he
> doesn't need money! he can just make things happen if he wants changes. They
> are examples in other religions as well. Yeah the new age market has lots of
> commercialism but that's the way society is heading.
> Oh this is slightly on topic but what's your opinions on spell kits, for
> beginners like me I mean.
>
>
You are asking the wrong person. Ren is a fraud. A con artist.
He's just skimmed a bunch of webpages on magick and wicca and
the like and is trying to make people believe he's an adept.
You can use google as well as he can.
He's been threatening to kill me or scramble my brains with
magick for a long time now. Same for BBDD. And yet we
are quite okay. He can't even make us go away.
This leads rational people to the conclusion that his every
other claim is a lie, too.
He has also demonstrated himelf to be quite dishonest, posting
malicious lies about people who dare to ask him to verify
his claims.
Note that Ren is anonymous. Like a troll or spammer. That
should set off warning bells in everyone's head. There's
no way someone who has done what he claims to have done
could be anonymous.
Spell kits are crap. Ritual magick of any kind is crap.
Ask anyone into either to demonstrate some magickal ability
for you. They can't. They can just bullshit and play the role.
Take a look at their lives. Are they happy? Do they have good
lives? If they aren't and don't, they know shit about magick.
Magickal Science
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/285af6796f80e3a8
A Teacher of Magick
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/937efafdee96fb64
Magick -- Back to Basics
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/962e0d14d4eef742
See also the posts of separatus to me on this thread and my responses to them.
Magick as a Supernatural Technology
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/2667fd32fb1e6189
Some Thoughts on the Nature of Magick
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/fd4ae2a7007797c1
What's a Mage
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/17f62b2931fee8fb
Priests and Teachers
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/fb2c86695b925775
charlatans:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/6546f5315283a741
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/481a2c3b324d9f55
The Two Phases of Spellwork:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/msg/be7dc4cab9b5f2e5
It's All Good
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/2e9bf77dd0854e39
Some Thoughts on Magick
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/0bfd7a825aa4f2c1
Spells
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/c303b5e5ab53c405
Basic Magick
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/48f4d78b9b176959
First Steps in Magick
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/b319bfe3a138087d
Sidney Lambe
Seon Ferguson <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Spell kits are crap. Ritual magick of any kind is crap.
>> Ask anyone into either to demonstrate some magickal ability
>> for you. They can't. They can just bullshit and play the role.
>> Take a look at their lives. Are they happy? Do they have good
>> lives? If they aren't and don't, they know shit about magick.
>>
> attacks so I'll leave you and ren's argument out of this.
I am not attacking him. I am assessing him. If it walks like a duck
and it talks like a duck....If the truth is negative, don't blame
the messenger.
Ren, on the other hand, attacks me regularly, because he hates it when
someone asks him to validate his claims and wants me to go away so
that he can get back to his cheap con game.
> I don't know why Ren would say silly things like that
> especially since karma would kick his ass three fold if he
> cursed you.
Only if his curses had power, and they don't.
> But you have a point perhaps spell kits are to impersonal and
> magic should be more personal?
'Personal'? Try 'individual'. And spells are psychic/mental.
There are no material things, including rituals, that will help
you with a spell. (Unless it's something simple that helps
you relaxe and clear your mind and concentrate and turn your
awareness within. But that isn't the magick, that's preparation.)
A spell is a belief. An idea reinforced with emotion and imagination.
You should read those. They aren't long. Some are very short.
Sidney Lambe
> I also do not see ritual as being necessary.
Both of those statements are contradicted by almost everything else
you have posted here.
> I don't see the relationship to consumerism in ritual. Do you mean a few
> candles purchased for light or the lighters (matches) or the candle
> holders or what?
>
> Everything we had we made by hand.
The web is full of wiccan/pagan stores selling stuff that is
supposedly necessary for magickal work.
Almost all the books and webpages and covens and
priests/priestesses and organizations push that stuff.
I've never seen a dedicated wiccan/pagan who didn't have hundreds
or thousands of dollars worth of that theatrical crap.
And you are missing the point entirely: Magick is about inner
awareness, inner actions, experiences in inner realms.
If you are focussing on the physical world, you are not doing
magick.
You are doing entertaining theatrics.
>> The primary job of a priest is to convince his followers that they
>> need him/her because he/she has abilities they don't have. Knowledge
>> they don't have.
>
> I would say that it teaches us that we all have that power in us, or
> will have that ability at some time.
That's not a priest you are talking about. You are talking about a
teacher, and these are quite different animals.
Priests and Teachers
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/fb2c86695b925775
charlatans:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/6546f5315283a741
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/481a2c3b324d9f55
> I say that with a bit of hesitation because we may have the power but it
> might not be our time to use it. When you step down the residual is
> there and the ability may remain, but that isn't what I am talking about
> either and I am not sure if this is the same with Wiccan's.
We are all magickal beings and we all have the power. Only a priest (by
whatever name or of whatever sex) would tell anyone otherwise.
>
> Do Wiccan's keep that energy they have as a priest/priestess until
> death?
Do they have any energy at all? I've never seen it, except theatrical
energy for entertaining the gullible.
> Or do they let it go when it is someone else's turn to lead and
> let that current move on to the other?
> For instance: if you were an officer of a certain energy that energy
> works with you and you learn from it while you are that officer and you
> have certain duties that go with it.
>
> As opposed to: I am also aware that when I say a poem to the Goddess,
> that this energy opens up to me, and does not depend on being in a
> certain office.
Please spare us this theatrical woo-woo that you love so much.
It's just crap.
A person practicing magick/studying magick is sitting or
lying alone somewhere, their attention turned within.
They aren't playing with toys and partying with other
people.
Do you think that people won't notice that you evaded almost
everything I said by just snipping it away, and spent all
of this article spewing more new-age woo-woo nonsense instead
of taking me on?
All priests are con artists.
Sidney Lambe
> news:dffj26x...@amma.net...
>> #Followup-To set to alt.religion.wicca
>> Seon Ferguson <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Spell kits are crap. Ritual magick of any kind is crap.
>>>> Ask anyone into either to demonstrate some magickal ability
>>>> for you. They can't. They can just bullshit and play the role.
>>>> Take a look at their lives. Are they happy? Do they have good
>>>> lives? If they aren't and don't, they know shit about magick.
>>>>
>>> Best bit of advice you have given in this post. I don't resort to
>>> personal
>>> attacks so I'll leave you and ren's argument out of this.
>>
>> I am not attacking him. I am assessing him. If it walks like a duck
>> and it talks like a duck....If the truth is negative, don't blame
>> the messenger.
>>
>> Ren, on the other hand, attacks me regularly, because he hates it when
>> someone asks him to validate his claims and wants me to go away so
>> that he can get back to his cheap con game.
>>
>>> I don't know why Ren would say silly things like that
>>> especially since karma would kick his ass three fold if he
>>> cursed you.
>>
>> Only if his curses had power, and they don't.
>>
> The power of the mind.
Beliefs are spells. That's what the power of the mind is
about.
>
>>> But you have a point perhaps spell kits are to impersonal and
>>> magic should be more personal?
>>
>> 'Personal'? Try 'individual'. And spells are psychic/mental.
>> There are no material things, including rituals, that will help
>> you with a spell. (Unless it's something simple that helps
>> you relaxe and clear your mind and concentrate and turn your
>> awareness within. But that isn't the magick, that's preparation.)
>>
>> A spell is a belief. An idea reinforced with emotion and imagination.
>>
> Yeah having some guy put all the ingredients together and a how to perform
> it takes away that individuality (that's a better description)
The only ingredients a spell has is an idea(s) and imagination and
emotion. (and intent and desire, if you want to get technical)
Of course, you can't sell a lot of stuff by teaching that basic
truth...
Nor build a lot of airy-fairy-new-age-woo-woo around it to
make the priests/priestesses seem to know things you don't know...
Because if they told you the truth they'd be out of a job and
wouldn't be able to convince you that you need to buy all that
stuff...
Sidney Lambe
> understand English well enough to be able to assist you. He can barely
> comprehend what you are typing. That is why his posts are so odd.
>
Not surprisingly, what you have said above is precisely the opposite
of the truth. And you know perfectly well that you are lying.
And it doesn't bother you at all.
My posts are about magick. Your posts are about convincing people
that you have abilities and knowledge that you don't have.
People can judge for themselves.
I hope they compare my articles to the useless theatrical woowoo
that you post.
Magickal Science
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/285af6796f80e3a8
Spells
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/c303b5e5ab53c405
Basic Magick
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.wicca/msg/48f4d78b9b176959
Firedraken
an attack in anyway on anyone as I do not know the people involved nor
the circumstances that lead to this. I am however going to exercise my
first amendment right and put my two cents worth in.
This entire exchange sounds more than anything like a pissing contest.
For all of recorded history people have never seen eye to eye on
religion or how it should be practiced. This has always led to war in
form or fashion, in this case it's a war of words. And, oh yes I am
going to call you both out by name.
Sidney Lambe wrote:
> #Followup-To set to alt.religion.wicca
> hy_b...@shaw.ca <hy_b...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Sidney Lambe wrote:
>>> #Followup-To set to alt.religion.wicca
>>> ren <ren...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Theatrics in Wicca
>>>> It is absolutely true that some Wiccans are not restricted to any one
>>>> mythological source. They may also use fictional sources in their
>>>> rituals. Wicca was founded on eclectic and creative principles when it
>>>> was designed by Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente. It is also true
>>>> that there are some Wiccans trying to recreate rituals and ways from
>>>> Celtic and Teutonic folklore. But this is at best a guess as Europe
>>>> was the "Land of Legend" at the time.
Ren I don't know what books you are reading or where you are getting
information from but people like Gardner, Valiente, Frost, and a few
others are not the founders of Wicca. They started the Modern movement
that is now called Wicca from principles and ideas that have been passed
down from generation to generation for millennium's. They brought it
into modern times creating their own traditions and ways of doing
things. In all honesty when it comes down to ritualism most of it is
based in myth and legend.
>>> You are referring to the original 'pagans'. They were a 'shamanic'
>>> culture and thus similar to 'shamanic' cultures everywhere, many
>>> of which exist even today.
>>>
>>> Rituals have very little to do with the true 'shamanism'.
>>
Sid, the term pagan means country folk, people of the land not shaman or
shamanic. The original pagans where made of many cultures, beliefs, and
areas from the druids of the British isles to shaman of the Native
Americans. Lumping all of our ancestors and their teachings and ways
into the heading of "shaman" is a travesty.
********Contest Starts***********
>> Every act we do is a ritual of some sort. Even taking time to meditate
>> is a ritual.
>
> Word games. Petty word games.
>
*******Contest Ends**************
>>>> There are few written documents
>>>> publicly available about pre-Christian spirituality in Europe. It is
>>>> perfectly fine for Wiccans to be theatrical and dramatic in their
>>>> rituals and personal cosmologies. Fictional or non-fictional
>>>> inspiration is equally effective in helping a Wiccan make contact with
>>>> the divine in nature, in the self, and with the Gods.
"There are few written documents", wrong there are none, that I have
ever found.
Pre - Christian spirituality was passed verbally what was written down
was in
personal book of shadows for that family. The only
known written texts come out of the middle ease and norther africa.
There are no, to my knowledge, European written records. As far as I am
concerned theatrics are never okay in any form or fashion in or out of a
rit. Theatrics are for those who don't give a damn and want to be able
to call themselves "good <fill in religion here>".
>>> What helps people get in touch with "the divine in nature" are techniques
>>> based on meditation, not costume parties in the woods.
>>>
>>> You are desperately trying to rationalize what are really just excuses
>>> to party. Social events. And entertaining substitutes for real
>>> 'spiritual' work.
>>>
>>> Which, not coincidentally, require people to buy a bunch of useless
>>> crap.
>>>
>>> It's like this "god/godess" nonsense. God does not have a penis
>>> or a cunt. Duh. Sex/gender has nothing to do with any rational
>>> and informed discussion of God.
What helps people get in touch with the divine period is not always
meditation. It is what works for them. For me it's walking through the
woods looking around, listening, sometimes talking to the animals and
listening to the wind. That is all open to interpretation. Having a
ritual does not mean party or buying a bunch of crap. Your tools are
just that tools you don't need them. They are an extension of yourself,
if you can't do the work without them then you shouldn't even have them,
can either of you do that?
Sid I do agree with you that there is no gender when it comes to the
divine force. That same force was genderized so that humans could
better understand and rationalize it. The ultimate supreme power in the
universe the "It" is not male or female. The sooner you both learn this
and come to understand it the better. But all the gods and goddess's
that have been worshiped for so many millennium are resepticals of
power. Things that can be tapped and used to achieve an ends.
I was going to address each point in this but honestly it would take me
decades to do so. Magick is a force in everything. The act of magick
isn't a ritual or just meditation. The both of you need to go back to
basics and re - discover why you chose the path you did. The act of
magick is taking the forces around you and shaping, bending and
directing them to reach the goal you have in mind. Use temperance and
never do anything in anger. My suggestion is to close any spell work
with "If this be just and right let this working find its way if it is
not then let it go no farther." You both seem to have forgotten the
rule of three. Especially you Ren. I've looked around and Sid you are
justified for being upset with Ren but please, do not try to force your
views of magikal right and wrong practices on other people. In my book
that makes you just as bad as the hypocritical Christian's. Take that
as you will.
Aine
> I am new to these boards so off the bat I want to say that this is not
> an attack in anyway on anyone as I do not know the people involved nor
> the circumstances that lead to this. I am however going to exercise my
> first amendment right and put my two cents worth in.
>
> This entire exchange sounds more than anything like a pissing contest.
> For all of recorded history people have never seen eye to eye on
> religion or how it should be practiced. This has always led to war in
> form or fashion, in this case it's a war of words. And, oh yes I am
> going to call you both out by name.
Excuse me? Stand down butt munch. Don't you march in here and pull the
I am calling you both out by name crap.
Whether you like this or not they both have the right to argue it so
watch how you come into an established group and act ill mannered.
What are you Noindens student warriors looking for points?
theardri
I beg your fucking pardon?
aine
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh, You are the head butt munch. Heeees baaa...akkkk I should have
known. The authority calling out of names and all. The lass in the
other post gave it away. Wave...bats eyes...hehehehe.
Fine. Just not a good time in here to ...ah hell email....