Magick as a Supernatural Technolgoy
Sidney Lambe
On these groups, Magick is generally thought of as being
a supernatural technology that one can you use in much
the same way that natural technologies are.
If you want light in the room you are in, you flip a light switch
and there's light in the room. If you want look into the future
you perform a certain ritual and can see into the future.
It doesn't matter who you are or what you are, if you know the
proper thing to do, either technology will work for you.
And this is precisely why none of these 'mages' (by whatever
name) can do anything Magickal.
Because Magick is not a technology. It isn't something seperate
from your being and consciousness. It is the way reality works.
You can't remain the same person you are now, and learn Magick.
It isn't something you can buy at a store and plug in and
flip a switch on.
As long as you believe that the universe is a mostly dead machine
that happenned by accident, and that your consciousness is an
illusion created by electro-chemical activity in your brain, you
will not be able to use Magick consciously.
You cannot remain an ignorant and superstitious savage and
learn Magick.
You can learn all the far out words and buy all the proper books
and trinkets and clothing and play the role on the usenet and
web forums and decorate your home with pentagrams and black
candles and drying herbs.
But you won't be able to do any Magick.
Sid
Note: My newsfilter kills more than half the posts on these
groups, including replies to anyone in my killfile. So if
I don't respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in one's presence.
aine
Silly you in alt druid and reply is to alt wicca only. Recruiting or
stalking?
aine
Silly you in alt druid and original post reply is to alt wicca only.
Recruiting or
stalking?
Since you posted to Druid ..I will reply here as well thank-eee!
Druid Folks Beware
1X2Willows
>
> On these groups, Magick is generally thought of
[blupp]
There is no such thing as "supernatural". Nature is all there is.
Either it's natural or it doesn't exist outside the humancentric mind.
An Coibhi Drui
As Searles previously charged against you here, you are an atheist,
Dan. Again by your mouth you destroy yourself. !!!
Cheers,
Michael.
An Coibhi Drui
wrote:
Even worse, you do not have a shred of genuine intelligence, Dan.
Just because the human race may be doomed to the grave and no survival
after death,
it does not logically follow or infer that there is no Creator, no
God :-)
Cheers,
Michael.
Seamus
proclaimed:
> Just because the human race may be doomed to the grave and no survival
> after death,
> it does not logically follow or infer that there is no Creator, no
> God :-)
That's a rather odd comment. Dan is actually quite intelligent, and his
comment about the non-existence of the supernatural is spot-on.
A God or Goddess does not have to be supernatural to be a deity - quite the
contrary.
Magick is natural, not supernatural.
I'll not begin on the little war that Searles has going on.
__
"Question everything, then question the answers." - Socrates
"I drank WHAT?!" - Socrates
aine
> On December 13th 2008, An Coibhi Drui <PhotographerOfKilke...@gmail.com>
People always leave and come back months later acting so serious,
mature and shit....hehehe
Your Usenet personality is set to go off at..... naw I won't tell you.
I love to mickey the timers so you are caught off guard. More fun when
you blow.
1X2Willows
On Dec 13, 8:30 pm, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>
> There is no such thing as "supernatural". Nature is all there is.
> Either it's natural or it doesn't exist outside the humancentric mind.
: you are an atheist,
Non-theist does not equal atheist. Atheists are usually quite 'religious'
about their disbelief in "god". I am not; just pragmatic about Nature.
- and besides...
May I remind you of one of your own 'classics':
[Quote]
**************************************
So the Witches say, Mary
by Michael McGrath - The order of Druids in Ireland Thu Jun 22, 2006 21:42
DruidEire at cablenet dot ie
So the witches say, Mary, so the witches say. But who cares what they say
now that I have stomped them into the dust. They are conquered today,
depressed, distraught, in tears, while we victorious Druids of Ireland are
content with a job well done, none more than me.
The Wiccans thought that they could win over the internet alone. I was
brought up in the smoke-filled Fianna Fail backroom. I did what comes
naturally to a politician - I went out and canvassed the people right across
the country. I knocked on doors. I pleaded the case of the Irish Druids on
the doorsteps along the highways and byways - and, yes, I enlisted the help
of politicians and my own Catholic Church. I pleaded the cause of Tara and
they all responded magnificently.
Nobody can withstand such forces as I mustered across Ireland. The few
farrarian wiccans here hadn't a chance. The grand Coalition I organised
against them is happy and victorious today at a job they all done so well.
And I will muster even greater forces in the future. But behind all my
forces was the Christ Force - I should have been dead ten times over but for
the power of Jesus, who sheltered me against every single curse and spell
huirled at me - and there were thousands of them.
I learned how to invoke Jesus from Ian MacArt, Druid of the Isle of Man
(ODI), Druidic Missionary of Jesus.
And from some rituals I have of Ross Nicholls, Founder of OBOD, who was a
lifelong Christian.
And I had my Bishop praying for me throughout. And my own ancestral Druids
in Otherworld.
A truly potent mixture.
Try it!
Michael McGrath (The Good)
Irish Archdruid.
**************************************
[Unquote]
"Christ Force" and "invoked Jesus", ey? What a laugh, Arsedroolwit.
Quit pretending and go play some more on Stormfront, your other possy
of homies besides the good Bishop and his crew of proselytizers.
Seamus
> People always leave and come back months later acting so serious,
> mature and shit....hehehe
>
> Your Usenet personality is set to go off at..... naw I won't tell you.
> I love to mickey the timers so you are caught off guard. More fun when
> you blow.
Hey, Aine :)
Missed you.
I'll try to stop being so serious. ;p
__
>Do the cyclical "september threads" count as continuous?
It's moot now. September 1993 will go down in net.history as the
September that never ended. - Dave Fischer in 1994, alt.folklore.net
The first recorded outbreak of this was Warren Burstein saying
"It's *always* September, *somewhere* on the net" in response to
a particularly Clueless outburst from Delphi.com on alt.folklore.urban,
in fall 1993. - Wendy M. Grossman, "net.wars"
Seamus
<snip>
> "Christ Force" and "invoked Jesus", ey? What a laugh, Arsedroolwit.
> Quit pretending and go play some more on Stormfront, your other possy
> of homies besides the good Bishop and his crew of proselytizers.
Wait, so that's McGrath? Is he still convinced we're all Dwyer?
(Grimgor's Grapes, he's still around?)
1X2Willows
> On December 13th 2008, An Coibhi Drui <Photographe...@gmail.com>
> proclaimed:
>> Even worse, you do not have a shred of genuine intelligence, Dan.
>> Just because the human race may be doomed to the grave and no survival
>> after death,
>> it does not logically follow or infer that there is no Creator, no
>> God :-)
>
> That's a rather odd comment. Dan is actually quite intelligent, and his
> comment about the non-existence of the supernatural is spot-on.
I'll take the second as a given but please! don't make me blush.
> A God or Goddess does not have to be supernatural to be a deity
> - quite the contrary.
Looky there. Someone's finally getting it and it's no surprise it would be
you. "God" is whatever we make him/her/it/them. Pure semantics. I for
one prefer "Spirit" but that's just me. Spirit in that sense, however
godlike or not, by human interpretation, is indoubtedly real. Guess I'm
no "Atheist" after all... ;-)
> Magick is natural, not supernatural.
but of course, once more
> I'll not begin on the little war that Searles has going on.
Actually, that's something you missed while away. That little
'war', going both ways as it always did (not denying my own
responsibility) is over. The former Chief Lieutenant McGrath of the
failed Irish National Socialist Party just wants to keep it alive as
one of his infamous buddy-buddy devices, that's all.
1X2Willows
> On December 13th 2008, "1X2Willows" wrote:
> <snip>
>> "Christ Force" and "invoked Jesus", ey? What a laugh, Arsedroolwit.
>> Quit pretending and go play some more on Stormfront, your other possy
>> of homies besides the good Bishop and his crew of proselytizers.
>
> Wait, so that's McGrath? Is he still convinced we're all Dwyer?
>
> (Grimgor's Grapes, he's still around?)
Yupp that's him. 'Strong' as ever. Only changed his 'handle' again to
muddy the waters, although his handlers are still the same. ;)
Seamus
>> That's a rather odd comment. Dan is actually quite intelligent, and
>> his comment about the non-existence of the supernatural is spot-on.
>
> I'll take the second as a given but please! don't make me blush.
I call it as I see it; the occasional ego stroke is good for ya.
>> A God or Goddess does not have to be supernatural to be a deity
>> - quite the contrary.
>
> Looky there. Someone's finally getting it and it's no surprise it
> would be you. "God" is whatever we make him/her/it/them. Pure
> semantics. I for one prefer "Spirit" but that's just me. Spirit in
> that sense, however godlike or not, by human interpretation, is
> indoubtedly real. Guess I'm no "Atheist" after all... ;-)
I figured you more as an agnostic, with pagan influences.
>> Magick is natural, not supernatural.
>
> but of course, once more
Only clarifying, as it needed to be said.
>> I'll not begin on the little war that Searles has going on.
>
> Actually, that's something you missed while away. That little
> 'war', going both ways as it always did (not denying my own
> responsibility) is over.
Well, yes, I shouldn't have been so one-sided.
> The former Chief Lieutenant McGrath of the failed Irish National
> Socialist Party just wants to keep it alive as one of his infamous
> buddy-buddy devices, that's all.
Ah, but is it working?
__
"I would suggest that responsible people in charge of their own
destinies know exactly what happens when you go projecting negative
energy into the Universe.
I'd also suggest to you that just because some doesn't go around
claiming to be a witch, it doesn't mean that they're not perfectly
capable of exerting as much power in the psychic\spiritual realm as
they are in the material.
I'd remind you that "occult" [basically] means hidden, and occult
power would be passed down through the generations based on
temperament and ability.
What I would point out is that silly women that scream to the world
that they are witches - are most definately not."
- rec.games.miniatures.warhammer Outtakes, from the rgmw/arw flamewar
of 2002
Tom
> a supernatural technology that one can you use in much
> the same way that natural technologies are.
No, magick is generally not thought of in that way in alt.magick.
It's likely that your attitude about alt.magick is similar to your
attitude about Trungpa's book. If your first glancing impression of
it doesn't exactly correspond to what you currently believe, you make
up a bunch of shit and decide that whatever that bunch of shit you
thought up is, that's what the object of your scorn must be talking
about.
> Because Magick is not a technology. It isn't something seperate
> from your being and consciousness. It is the way reality works.
Technology, in case you hadn't noticed, is also part of reality. How
things get done is technology.
> As long as you believe that the universe is a mostly dead machine
> that happenned by accident, and that your consciousness is an
> illusion created by electro-chemical activity in your brain, you
> will not be able to use Magick consciously.
It is not necessary to see the world as "dead" in order to use
technology. Nor is it necessary to see the universe as a deliberately
created thing in order to practice magick effectively.
As for your consciousness not being an illusion created by
electrochemical activitiy in your brain, doesn"t that contradict your
assertion that there is no discontinuity between mind and body? After
all, if consciousness does not arise from the chemical reactions of
the brain, then mind and body are separate things.
> You cannot remain an ignorant and superstitious savage and
> learn Magick.
Yes, you can. There is no time in your life, now or ever, where you
are not mostly ignorant. It is incredibly arrogant to regard yourself
as omniscient or even nearly so.
sarchasm
>
"Subject: Magick as a Supernatural Technolgoy"
>
What is a "technolGOY"? Some kind of non-jewish tech?
1X2Willows
> On December 13th 2008, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>>> That's a rather odd comment. Dan is actually quite intelligent, and
>>> his comment about the non-existence of the supernatural is spot-on.
>>
>> I'll take the second as a given but please! don't make me blush.
>
> I call it as I see it; the occasional ego stroke is good for ya.
- but after the blushing, it gives me boils!
It hurtses us, Precious, it hurtses us!
Remember... I'm the EVIL 1X2, Dark Power and Monster supreme!
>>> A God or Goddess does not have to be supernatural to be a deity
>>> - quite the contrary.
>>
>> Looky there. Someone's finally getting it and it's no surprise it
>> would be you. "God" is whatever we make him/her/it/them. Pure
>> semantics. I for one prefer "Spirit" but that's just me. Spirit in
>> that sense, however godlike or not, by human interpretation, is
>> indoubtedly real. Guess I'm no "Atheist" after all... ;-)
>
> I figured you more as an agnostic, with pagan influences.
First of all totally fascinated with language and the application as
well as interpretation thereof. The problem with all those definitions
is, for me, that none of them came from within, meaning they are
rooted in a judeo-christianized 'western' and thus quite biblical
understanding of spiritual language and terminology. Hardly an
explanation of "Animism" by an animist and the like. Those words
all mean, basically, what gnostics and 'declared scientists'
(synonymous for "no religion at all!") want them to mean.
My ancestors for example 'called upon' Epona no doubt, but they
would have never referred to their dialogue with her as "prayer"
or uttered, (God forbid! :o) such rubbish as "Oh Goddess Epona,
we worship thou!" and whatever. On the other side of the spectrum,
she's not simply an "archetype" either, as true agnostics would want
you to believe. I've met her, one icey cold morning, sun barely up,
two feet of solid mist on the ground which you could have skated on
and everything. Had us a little chat. --- and that's just one.
Methinks that Spirit of this sort has not only the ability but also the
outstanding courtesy to manifest in shape and form which suits us best
and doesn't really mind either way, as long as the point gets across.
>>> Magick is natural, not supernatural.
>>
>> but of course, once more
>
> Only clarifying, as it needed to be said.
True.
Worth getting repeated, over and over, for the slow of learning. ;)
>>> I'll not begin on the little war that Searles has going on.
>>
>> Actually, that's something you missed while away. That little
>> 'war', going both ways as it always did (not denying my own
>> responsibility) is over.
>
> Well, yes, I shouldn't have been so one-sided.
It's all in flux and certainly never too late to revise one's opinion
when times have changed and the people, me included, with it.
To me, that doesn't mean I was "wrong" then (oy the guilt! :)
but I would certainly be wrong to carry on and 'war for war's sake'.
Quite honestly, I like it a lot better the way it is now. .... again
>> The former Chief Lieutenant McGrath of the failed Irish National
>> Socialist Party just wants to keep it alive as one of his infamous
>> buddy-buddy devices, that's all.
>
> Ah, but is it working?
Heck no but can't blame him for trying either, the ole prankster.
After all, he's learned his shlongtuggery from the best in the biz.
Poor fool still hopes someone in the real world would believe in
his "heredetary" credentials, amongst all the other made up
horseshit.
odubh...@gmail.com
>
> I'll not begin on the little war that Searles has going on.
>
I think you slept through that one Rip.
Seamus
>> I'll not begin on the little war that Searles has going on.
>>
>
> I think you slept through that one Rip.
As I said the 'war' was two-sided, and I used poor wording there.
So, what's happened in the aftermath?
__
"Just because I choose not to involve myself, doesn't make it civilized."
- rec.games.miniatures.warhammer Outtakes
1X2Willows
>
> I think I was gone during that.
None to blame anyway.
> As I said the 'war' was two-sided, and I used poor wording there.
>
> So, what's happened in the aftermath?
The Jimster basically dropped off the planet, after making a complete
arse of himself by sticking up for the "Coibhi Drui".
That's the short version. Trust me, you do_not_want to hear the long one.
Seamus
>> So, what's happened in the aftermath?
>
> The Jimster basically dropped off the planet, after making a complete
> arse of himself by sticking up for the "Coibhi Drui".
>
> That's the short version. Trust me, you do_not_want to hear the long
> one.
:shudder: I'll take your word for it.
1X2Willows
> On December 14th 2008, "1X2Willows" wrote:
>>> So, what's happened in the aftermath?
>>
>> The Jimster basically dropped off the planet, after making a complete
>> arse of himself by sticking up for the "Coibhi Drui".
>>
>> That's the short version. Trust me, you do_not_want to hear the long
>> one.
>
> :shudder: I'll take your word for it.
Creepy stuff. Actually, there was some humour to it but
I guess you would have had to have been there.
Well anyway, screw it. Welcome back! How's it been amongst
the Fomorian in the mean time? All well?
Parse Tree
> As long as you believe that the universe is a mostly dead machine
> that happenned by accident, and that your consciousness is an
> illusion created by electro-chemical activity in your brain, you
> will not be able to use Magick consciously.
Accidents require intent. If the universe is a dead machine, then
nothing is by accident.
Parse Tree
Is there some sort of context to the incoherent blather you just posted?
Parse Tree
But in my case it's true!
Patrick Schaaf
>On these groups, Magick is generally thought of as being
>a supernatural technology that one can you use in much
>the same way that natural technologies are.
No. You have your basic premise wrong.
>Note: My newsfilter kills more than half the posts on these
>groups, including replies to anyone in my killfile.
Your filter presents you with those killed messages, so you
can be sure to answer "I don't hear you" to each and every one.
Remember what you posted yesterday? Here's an excerpt:
>#article 53062 <49436728$0$12709$9b62...@news.freenet.de>
>#rejected by filter (XOVER) Headers: From: mailer...@bof.de
So, to anybody killfiled by Sidney, you can be sure to be read in a timely
and expedited fashion by that obsessed and confused warrlorrd.
best regards
Patrick
Seamus
>> :shudder: I'll take your word for it.
>
> Creepy stuff. Actually, there was some humour to it but
> I guess you would have had to have been there.
> Well anyway, screw it. Welcome back! How's it been amongst
> the Fomorian in the mean time? All well?
I've been well. I haven't had anything ground-shakingly huge happen over
the past while, but I'm good.
__
"Do a google search for 'the Holocaust was just a ruse' and start believing
everything you read about that. Seriously. People like this with access to
the Internet are like babies with dynamite."
- rec.games.miniatures.warhammer Outtakes
1X2Willows
> On December 14th 2008, "1X2Willows" inquired:
>>> :shudder: I'll take your word for it.
>>
>> Creepy stuff. Actually, there was some humour to it but
>> I guess you would have had to have been there.
>> Well anyway, screw it. Welcome back! How's it been amongst
>> the Fomorian in the mean time? All well?
>
> I've been well. I haven't had anything ground-shakingly huge happen
> over the past while, but I'm good.
Well, "not-interesting-times" are said to be a good thing if we
trust that Chinese proverb. Glad to hear.
whitroth
>
> On these groups, Magick is generally thought of as being
> a supernatural technology that one can you use in much
> the same way that natural technologies are.
I don't agree. That's certainly not what most folks I've known over the
years believed, either.
For one, IMO, there is no "supernatural" - if it happens, it's natural,
although you may not understand the mechanism.
For another, I agree with Bonewits, that it's "a series of psychological
techniques to control psi power", and I do *not* believe that there's no
physical basis for that. The only *bang*, it's magic is in bad stories, and
TV commercials. Even in mediocre stories, there's *always* a mechanism.
The problem with trying to do Magick is that the technology isn't
understood, any more than, say, crystallization of metal before the last
150 years or so. There's also the problem that since the mechanism isn't
understood, it's very hard to reproduce an effect.
<snip>
That being said, I do agree with what you write, below - you *do* have to
understand what it is you're trying to do, and how you intend it to happen,
and the mechanism that will make it happen.
Which is why you *really* need to bust your chops learning what it is that
you're doing. Picking and choosing, mixing and matching myths, viewpoints,
and metaphysics doesn't work, any more than tossing whatever you happen to
find while blindfolded in the kitchen will make something edible.
> Because Magick is not a technology. It isn't something seperate
> from your being and consciousness. It is the way reality works.
>
> You can't remain the same person you are now, and learn Magick.
> It isn't something you can buy at a store and plug in and
> flip a switch on.
>
> As long as you believe that the universe is a mostly dead machine
> that happenned by accident, and that your consciousness is an
> illusion created by electro-chemical activity in your brain, you
> will not be able to use Magick consciously.
>
> You cannot remain an ignorant and superstitious savage and
> learn Magick.
>
> You can learn all the far out words and buy all the proper books
> and trinkets and clothing and play the role on the usenet and
> web forums and decorate your home with pentagrams and black
> candles and drying herbs.
>
> But you won't be able to do any Magick.
mark
--
"...Our nation can no more survive as half democracy and half oligarchy
than it could survive "half slave and half free". - Bill Moyers
Sidney Lambe
whitroth <whit...@rcn.com> wrote:
> Sidney Lambe wrote:
>>
>> On these groups, Magick is generally thought of as being
>> a supernatural technology that one can you use in much
>> the same way that natural technologies are.
>
> I don't agree. That's certainly not what most folks I've known over the
> years believed, either.
Glad to hear it. But most people who are into magick (or think
they are) think that if they just say the right words and draw
the right symbols and burn the right herb and make sure the phase
of the moon is correct (blah,blah) that they can accomplish
something by means of magick.
Without changing what they are as a human being in any
significant way.
Check out most of the books and websites that are supposedly
about magick (by whatever name) and that's what you'll find.
>
> For one, IMO, there is no "supernatural" - if it happens, it's natural,
> although you may not understand the mechanism.
I agree.
Nature _is_ supernatural _is_ natural.
>
> For another, I agree with Bonewits, that it's "a series of psychological
> techniques to control psi power", and I do *not* believe that there's no
> physical basis for that. The only *bang*, it's magic is in bad stories, and
> TV commercials. Even in mediocre stories, there's *always* a mechanism.
Sure. But there's a big difference between believing that the
mechanism is an invisible machine that you can push the right
buttons on by performing the correct ritual, and understanding
that the mechanism is built into your consciousness and is a
fundamental part of your being.
That's the point I'm trying to make.
>
> The problem with trying to do Magick is that the technology isn't
> understood, any more than, say, crystallization of metal before the last
> 150 years or so. There's also the problem that since the mechanism isn't
> understood, it's very hard to reproduce an effect.
You mean that it isn't understood by you or anyone you know.
Spells are beliefs. What exists in the physical universe is the
manifestation of belief, individual and en masse. Ideas become
real.
The actual mechanisms are multi-dimensional and utterly beyond
verbalization. You can experience them, if you are advanced enough,
but you can't put them into words.
And you don't need to understand them at that level to use magick
very effectively. We all do it every day, all day long, quite
unwittingly. There's nothing else going on.
The greatest magickal feat you will ever accomplish is existing
for one minute in the physical universe.
>[delete]
> That being said, I do agree with what you write, below - you *do* have to
> understand what it is you're trying to do, and how you intend it to happen,
> and the mechanism that will make it happen.
>
> Which is why you *really* need to bust your chops learning what it is that
> you're doing. Picking and choosing, mixing and matching myths, viewpoints,
> and metaphysics doesn't work, any more than tossing whatever you happen to
> find while blindfolded in the kitchen will make something edible.
:-) Well said.
"Learning what you are doing" is, on a practical level, learning
what spells you are maintaining right now. What your beliefs
really are.
>> Because Magick is not a technology. It isn't something seperate
>> from your being and consciousness. It is the way reality works.
>>
>> You can't remain the same person you are now, and learn Magick.
>> It isn't something you can buy at a store and plug in and
>> flip a switch on.
>>
>> As long as you believe that the universe is a mostly dead machine
>> that happenned by accident, and that your consciousness is an
>> illusion created by electro-chemical activity in your brain, you
>> will not be able to use Magick consciously.
>>
>> You cannot remain an ignorant and superstitious savage and
>> learn Magick.
>>
>> You can learn all the far out words and buy all the proper books
>> and trinkets and clothing and play the role on the usenet and
>> web forums and decorate your home with pentagrams and black
>> candles and drying herbs.
>>
>> But you won't be able to do any Magick.
>
> mark
Cheers
Sid
--
My newsfilter kills more than half the posts to these groups,
including replies to any name in my killfile. So if I don't
respond to a reply it is because I didn't see it.
Thou shalt not suffer a troll to speak in thine presence.