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TIMELINE: LEE HARVEY OSWALD: NOVEMBER 22, 1963

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David Von Pein

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Feb 17, 2008, 6:49:49 AM2/17/08

My Proposed "LEE HARVEY OSWALD ASSASSINATION TIMELINE"......

(Beginning at lunchtime on November 22, 1963; all times
approximate)......

========================================================

11:45-11:50 AM (Friday, Nov. 22, 1963) -- Bill Shelley sees Lee Harvey
Oswald downstairs on the first floor. ....

MR. BALL -- "On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot,
when is the last time you saw Oswald?"

MR. SHELLEY -- "It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12."

MR. BALL -- "Where?"

MR. SHELLEY -- "On the first floor over near the telephone.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley2.htm

11:50-11:54 AM -- Oswald goes from the first floor to the sixth floor.
Just a few minutes after getting to the sixth floor, the five other
men who are on the 6th Floor break for lunch and race the two freight
elevators downstairs. Oswald remains on the sixth floor.

11:55 AM -- Charles Givens comes back up to the sixth floor to
retrieve his jacket and cigarettes. He sees Oswald, with clipboard in
hand, on the east end of the floor. Per Givens' testimony, it's during
this "cigarette trip" back up to the sixth floor when Oswald asks
Givens to close the elevator gate and to send the elevator back up to
him. This differs in chronology from the other witnesses who said they
heard Oswald requesting the elevator during the "racing" of the
elevators downstairs...i.e., BEFORE Givens went back up by himself.

In any event, it's fairly certain that (at some point just prior to
12:00) Oswald did ask for an elevator to be returned back up to him on
the sixth floor.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/8823834c81dea1be

It's very likely that no one inside the Book Depository Building saw
Lee Oswald after approx. 11:55 AM on November 22nd, until LHO was next
seen by Marrion Baker at approx. 12:31-12:32 PM on the second floor.

Carolyn Arnold has stated her belief that she saw Oswald in the
lunchroom, eating his lunch, at either 12:15 PM or about 12:25 PM
(over the years, she apparently has used both of those time
estimates).

Now, such an "Oswald sighting" by Arnold at either of those times
still would not give Oswald an alibi for the exact time of the
assassination (12:30). But, it would be hard to believe that LHO would
have been downstairs, casually eating his lunch, just a few minutes
before dashing upstairs to murder the President.

But other witness testimony tends to debunk Carolyn Arnold's "I Saw
LHO In The Lunchroom" account. And, in my view, there's just too much
evidence (overall) that concretely puts Oswald on the 6th Floor during
the approximate timeframe when Arnold claimed he was in the lunchroom.

11:55 AM-12:05 PM (estimated) -- Oswald has the whole sixth floor to
himself. This is just prior to Bonnie Ray Williams coming back up to
the 6th Floor to eat his lunch. It's my belief that Lee Oswald, during
this (approx.) 10-minute time period around noon or shortly after,
probably went to the west end of the sixth floor (where he had his
rifle hidden in the brown bag).

Oswald unwraps the rifle at the west end of the sixth floor and
assembles the rifle at the west end (hence, Arnold Rowland sees a
white man with a rifle at the west end of the building at approx. this
time, maybe a little later, 12:15 or so, but keep in mind the
approximation of all times).

It's quite possible, IMO, that Oswald initially was considering using
the WEST-end window as his shooting window. But, for one reason or
another, he decided that a window on the EAST end of the sixth floor
would better serve his purposes.

Perhaps he was mentally factoring in the angles and trajectories in
his head, and possibly realized that an east-end perch would be a
better one, especially since the Secret Service agents would all have
their backs to him when he began firing, if he decided to wait until
after the cars had turned to Elm/Houston corner....which, IMO, Oswald
definitely had in his mind to do, due to the pre-arranged way the
rifle-rest boxes were constructed (i.e., in a "Rifle Always Pointing
West/Southwest" manner).

It's also possible that, as Oswald mulled over potential shooting
locations, he realized that a goodly number of boxes were already down
on the east end of the 6th Floor, which would make constructing a
makeshift "Nest" all the easier for him.

Now, I cannot fully explain why Oswald wanted to take the empty paper
bag WITH HIM to the east end from the west end via this scenario I'm
laying out here....but I've got to assume (naturally) that he DID do
just that after assembling the rifle on the west end.

Perhaps--just perhaps--Oswald had it in his mind that he would be able
to re-insert the weapon back into that bag and, just maybe, get the
incriminating rifle out of the building the same way he smuggled it
in--in the brown paper package that supposedly contained those never-
found "curtain rods".

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7a460183ae4c6c41

Yes, that last part is fairly weak...I'll admit that. I don't much
like that idea either. For, Oswald would surely have known that he
wouldn't have the time (or want to take time) to dismantle the rifle
AFTER shooting at the President.

But, then too, who can know what crazy thoughts might be swimming
through the head of a person who is contemplating murdering a U.S.
President from his very own place of employment? That's a difficult
type of mind to thoroughly probe and to figure out....indeed. Wouldn't
you all agree?

12:00-12:05 PM -- Oswald (with his rifle and the paper bag) moves to
the east end of the sixth floor, where Oswald works on constructing
his Sniper's Nest. Now, some of these boxes might have been pretty
close to the SN window already...which, as I mentioned, could have
been a partial factor in Oswald choosing that southeast corner window
to begin with. So, perhaps the building of the "Nest" wasn't as
difficult or as time-consuming as some people seem to think it had to
be.

I really have no idea how long it would have taken Oswald to create
his makeshift Sniper's Nest of book cartons. And nobody else knows for
sure either. This is one of the several "unknowables" surrounding this
case.

But the sum total of "Oswald Was There" evidence tells me that Lee
Oswald (alone) DID construct that Sniper's Nest at some point prior to
Bonnie Ray Williams arriving back up on that sixth floor (or, at least
Oz had ENOUGH of the Nest constructed so that he was able to hide
behind a wall of partially-constructed boxes during Williams brief 5-
to-12-minute stay up on that floor).

12:05-12:15 PM (estimated) -- Oswald can hear Bonnie Ray Williams in
the middle portion of the sixth floor, near the south windows, as
Williams eats his lunch. I think, therefore, it's logical to assume
that Oswald would have been trying to remain extra quiet as he hides
within his "Nest" of boxes (whether the Nest is totally complete or
not, we cannot know; but we do know that some boxes in that southeast
corner are prohibiting Williams from seeing deep into that
corner). ....

"Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because
the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the
path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see
anything to the east side of the building." -- Bonnie Ray Williams

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm

But Oswald's rifle was probably already completely assembled when
Williams was on the sixth floor....so there's no need for any noise to
be coming from the metal parts in this "rifle" regard.

And I think it's logical to assume that Oswald was probably getting a
tad anxious, waiting for his prey to turn from Main to Houston...and,
at the same time, wondering if he'll have to abandon his murder
attempt due to Williams' pesky presence on the very same 6th Floor. So
Oswald quietly moves to the window and looks out a couple of times
(per Brennan), but without his rifle in his hands....the rifle is no
doubt resting at Oswald's feet in the SN.

Re. Howard Brennan -- I'm going to have to take issue with Mr.
Brennan's account of seeing Oswald sitting "sideways on the window
sill", however. I'm just doubting that was even physically possible,
given the arrangement of book cartons IN the window itself. And it
doesn't seem likely that Oswald would want to sit up on the sill
anyhow, thereby making himself even MORE visible to anyone outside.

However, as a footnote to my last comments, it's possible (but not
provable by any means) that Oswald had not yet placed the rifle-rest
boxes in the window at the time Brennan said he saw the man (later
IDed by Brennan as Lee Oswald) sitting "sideways on the window sill".

Perhaps Oswald, as alluded to previously, was interrupted (by
Williams' presence) during the construction of his Sniper's Nest (the
timeline was, indeed, a fairly-tight one, granted, between Givens
seeing Oswald at approx. 11:55 and Williams arriving back on the 6th
Floor a very few minutes later...with Williams seeing nobody at all on
the entire sixth floor).

So, Brennan could very well be correct re. the "sideways on the sill"
observation. But I'm going to exercise my proverbial "grain of salt"
option when considering the accuracy of such a "sideways on the sill"
observation.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan.htm

12:10-12:15 PM (estimated) -- Bonnie Ray Williams finishes his
"chicken-on-the-bone" sandwich (~LOL~) and his Dr. Pepper soft drink
and vacates the sixth floor (after Williams heard some activity on the
5th Floor below him). Williams takes an elevator down one flight to
join two other employees on the fifth floor to watch the motorcade.

Lee Oswald now is alone, once again, on the Texas School Book
Depository's sixth floor. He has approximately 15 minutes to wait
until the President will come into his view on the street below him.

During these last few minutes prior to 12:30 PM, it's possible that
Oswald puts some finishing touches on his Sniper's Nest....and/or his
rifle-rest cartons.

Regarding the 5th-Floor witnesses (Harold Norman, James Jarman, and
Bonnie Ray Williams), and what they heard.....

Norman stated positively that he heard three rifle shots being fired
from directly above him. And he told Vincent Bugliosi in 1986 that he
heard precisely three "hulls" (shells) hitting the floor as the
shooting was taking place above him....

BUGLIOSI -- "And by 'hulls', you mean cartridge casings?"
NORMAN -- "Cartridges."
BUGLIOSI -- "How many did you hear falling to the floor?"
NORMAN -- "Three."

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/fa26e26f62263eeb

Now, as far as the 5th-Floor witnesses not specifically hearing any
footsteps from the assassin upstairs just before and just after the
assassination -- I'd ask: What difference does that really make?

Obviously, SOMEBODY was up on that 6th Floor, in that Sniper's Nest,
firing a gun (be it Lee Harvey Oswald or somebody else....SOME HUMAN
BEING WITH TWO FEET was up there with a gun).

So the conspiracy theorists who think it's odd to have Norman, Jarman,
and Williams not hearing the footsteps of Oswald just prior to and
just after 12:30 on November 22nd are not thinking the situation
through logically.

Because somebody was located in that southeast corner of the 6th Floor
at 12:30 (and, naturally, just a little bit PRIOR to 12:30 too)....so
if it wasn't Lee Oswald doing the shooting, then the CTers have to
wonder why the "real killer's" footsteps were not heard by N,J,&W
either. It turns out to be a moot argument from anyone's particular
point-of-view.

POST-SHOOTING CHRONOLOGY......

Lee Oswald is able to perform his deadly deed at 12:30, as he fires
three of his four bullets from his 6th-Floor SN window, killing JFK
with shot #3. I'm guessing that Oswald, too, like the rest of the
world, was very surprised indeed that he had actually been able to
pull off this task in total secrecy from his workplace (not counting
Mr. Brennan outside the building). I'm doubting LHO thought he'd
REALLY get a golden chance to do it.

But, unfortunately, he was given that chance when Williams vacated the
sixth floor....and Oswald was aided further, as it turns out, when no
other employees decided they would use the SIXTH floor as a parade-
watching perch that Friday.

12:30:30 PM -- Lee Harvey Oswald's task is completed. He pauses at the
window for just a moment (per Brennan's account), and then disappears
from Brennan's view.

Oswald, in his haste, leaves the three traceable rifle shells and the
brown paper sack in the Sniper's Nest. He hustles (with rifle in hand,
and with one remaining bullet chambered in his Carcano, if needed) to
the northwest corner of the sixth floor.

It's my personal belief that Oswald (during this trip to the NW
corner) was wiping as many fingerprints off of his Mannlicher-Carcano
rifle as he could in the time allowed. He was very likely (IMO) using
the brown shirt in which he was arrested to perform this print-wiping
task.

Oswald gets to the northwest corner of the building without being seen
by anyone. He notices that neither of the two freight elevators is on
his floor. So he's forced to take the nearby stairs in that NW corner
of the building.

He stashes his rifle between some boxes very close to the stairway.
It's possible that Oswald had PRE-ARRANGED this rifle-stowing location
prior to the assassination. We can never know this for sure, of
course. But I think it's possible.*

* = However, I'll add here my own confusion re. Oswald's seemingly
willy-nilly attitude toward the evidence he was leaving
behind....because, as you'll recall a little bit ago, I postulated
that Oswald might have been of the initial opinion that he'd be able
to slip the rifle (somehow, some way) back into the paper bag and
perhaps get it out of the building in such a manner.

But if he had PRE-arranged a rifle-stashing location near the stairs,
that would mean he probably wasn't thinking of removing the rifle from
the 6th Floor at all. Who can know for sure? No one can. Perhaps
Oswald was thinking along BOTH of those lines.

Here's a possibility to consider as well (re. the rifle) -- If Oswald
had never been given the chance to shoot at the President (and IMO
it's VERY likely that Oswald was thinking that he might very well NOT
have this perfect opportunity to carry out the shooting), it's quite
possible, indeed, that Oswald would have made BOTH of the previously-
mentioned rifle-hiding provisions -- e.g., pre-arranging a place on
the NW side to hide the rifle from view AND having a potential need
for that brown paper bag once again (even after 12:30, given the
possibility he might never fire the weapon at all).

Via the last option, it's likely Oswald would probably still not want
to waltz out the front door of the Depository carrying a fully-
assembled Carcano rifle in full view of many people. (It could look
kinda bad, in a "Maybe That Guy Is Up To No Good With That Rifle The
Same Day The President Has Passed By This Building" sort of fashion.)

So, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Oswald
could have planned out BOTH of those rifle-stashing options on
November 22.

Granted, in the option where Oswald doesn't fire the gun at all, he
COULD have simply left the bag on the WEST side of the building....and
then casually retrieved it after 12:30. (In such a situation, of
course, no shots would have been fired, and nobody would be rushing
into the building searching desperately for a gunman; hence, Oswald
would not need to be in a really big hurry to gather up the bag.)

Continuing on with Oswald's post-shooting movements......

12:31-12:32 PM -- Oswald travels quickly down to the second floor of
the TSBD via the back stairway. (It's possible that the reason he
ducked off at Floor #2 is because he heard the footsteps of the
approaching Roy Truly and Marrion Baker.)

Oswald is then stopped at gunpoint in the 2nd-Floor lunchroom by
Officer M.L. Baker. LHO is then immediately cleared as an employee and
is let go by Baker.

Oswald is calm, silent, and unflustered during his encounter with
Baker (per Baker's testimony). This reaction, IMO, is much more
indicative of GUILT than with INNOCENCE.

If innocent, isn't it quite likely that Oswald would have been a bit
scared, rattled, and probably would have at least said to Baker, "What
the hell is this?! What's going on?! I didn't do anything! Why are you
stopping me?!"

Oswald, instead, is dead-quiet. Never changing his expression one bit
(per Baker).

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm

12:32 PM -- Oswald then buys a soft drink from the soda machine in the
lunchroom, and then strolls casually and unhurriedly toward the stairs
near the 2nd-Floor offices (after having just been cleared as a worker
in the building, thereby probably allowing Oswald to relax a little
bit more at that point in time).

Mrs. Robert A. Reid sees Oswald with a full beverage bottle. She says
to him "The President's been shot". Oswald mumbles something
incoherent and continues toward the front stairs, which lead to the
first-floor TSBD entrance.

12:40 PM -- Oswald boards a bus on Elm Street, east of the TSBD. He
stays on the bus about 4 minutes, gets a transfer from driver Cecil
McWatters, and then exits the bus. Mary Bledsoe positively identifies
Oswald as having been on board McWatters' bus on 11/22/63.

Oswald, in an out-of-character move (given his usual tightfisted
habits), spends 95 cents ($1.00 with the whopping tip given to driver
William Whaley) on a cab ride from the Greyhound bus station to the
general area of his Oak Cliff roominghouse.

Oswald has Whaley take him PAST the roominghouse at 1026 North Beckley
Avenue (probably so that Lee can check to see if any cops are near his
home at the time), with Oswald getting out of Whaley's cab at the
intersection of Neely and Beckley, three blocks beyond his rented
room.

Oswald then backtracks the three blocks and rushes into his
roominghouse at approx. 12:59-1:00 PM.

Housekeeper Earlene Roberts said the following (during a re-enactment
that was done for the 1964 movie "Four Days In November").....

"I got word about the President being killed...and he {LHO} come in,
in a hurry. I said 'Ooh, you're in a hurry'. He never parted his
lips....he went to his room, got a short coat to put on, and then he
walked on out to the bus stop....and that's the last I saw of him."

1:14-1:15 PM -- Oswald shoots and kills Dallas policeman J.D. Tippit
on Tenth Street (0.85 of a mile from the roominghouse Oswald just left
a short time earlier).

Multiple witnesses verify it was Lee Harvey Oswald who killed Officer
Tippit. Bullet shells from Oswald's revolver ("to the exclusion") were
recovered by THREE different witnesses at the Tippit murder scene.

THE TIPPIT MURDER AND THE HILARIOUS ATTEMPTS TO DEFEND MR. OSWALD:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85fe573544d89f90

Oswald is next seen by Johnny Brewer at approx. 1:35 to 1:40 PM.
Brewer notices Oswald's "funny" and "scared" look as LHO lurks in the
entrance of Brewer's shoe store.

Brewer follows Oswald a short distance up Jefferson Boulevard and
watches as Oswald slips into the Texas Theater (without paying).
Brewer confers with Texas Theater employee Julia Postal about the man
who just entered the theater. Postal calls the police.

The following passage can be found in Julia Postal's WC testimony
transcript....

"So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it
was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well,
it fits the description," and I have not---I said I hadn't heard the
description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some
reason"."

1:50 PM -- Lee Harvey Oswald is apprehended in the Texas Theater.
Oswald pulls his revolver on Officer McDonald and a wild fight ensues.
While inside the theater, Oswald is heard to say, "It's all over now"
and/or "This is it".

After his arrest, Oswald repeatedly lies to the authorities about
important issues connected to the investigation of the murders of
President Kennedy and Officer Tippit....

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/ea04b9e6141f0098

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/beb8390c3526124d

======================

The above "Oswald timeline" is not perfect. It has some weaknesses,
yes. The "Rowland" timeline isn't a perfect dead-on match. And the
"Bonnie Ray Williams" timeframe isn't rock-solid either.

But those witnesses were not staring at their watches when they
observed the things they observed and did the things they did on
11/22/63. And I'd say, generally-speaking (give or take a very few
minutes in "real time"), that those witness accounts of the events of
that November day work out pretty close to corroborating the general
"Oswald timeline" I've laid out in this post.

The long and the short of the matter is this --- Just about every last
thing Lee Harvey Oswald did following the assassination of John F.
Kennedy indicates a GUILTY LEE HARVEY OSWALD.

David Von Pein
April 2007

robcap...@netscape.com

unread,

Feb 18, 2008, 12:15:25 AM2/18/08

On Feb 17, 6:49 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

"My Proposed "LEE HARVEY OSWALD ASSASSINATION TIMELINE"......"

I'll stick with what we know based on eyewitness sightings and
testimony.

> (Beginning at lunchtime on November 22, 1963; all times
> approximate)......
>
> ========================================================
>

"11:45-11:50 AM (Friday, Nov. 22, 1963) -- Bill Shelley sees Lee
Harvey Oswald downstairs on the first floor. ...."

11:45 AM - Charles Givens sees Oswald as his elevator passes the fifth
floor on its way down to the first floor. He forgets his cigarettes so
he heads back to the sixth floor via the elevator to get them as they
are in his jacket. On arrival he sees Oswald with a clipboard walking
from the "southeast" corner to towards the elevator. All this was
given under testimony, but it is physically impossible for him to see
Oswald unless he walked east far enough from the elevator. Givens,
was a known narcotics user with a police record, some have said he was
pressured into his story by the police. Givens, like Oswald, will
leave the building after the assassination.
Bonnie Ray Williams and Billy Lovelady also testify to seeing Oswald
on the fifth floor, waiting impatiently for them to send back up the
elevator once they made it down so he could come down. Charles Givens
also sees Oswald at the gate on the fifth floor as the elevator goes
by.

> MR. BALL -- "On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot,
> when is the last time you saw Oswald?"
>
> MR. SHELLEY -- "It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12."
>
> MR. BALL -- "Where?"
>
> MR. SHELLEY -- "On the first floor over near the telephone.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley2.htm

"11:50-11:54 AM -- Oswald goes from the first floor to the sixth
floor. Just a few minutes after getting to the sixth floor, the five
other men who are on the 6th Floor break for lunch and race the two
freight elevators downstairs. Oswald remains on the sixth floor."

11:50 AM - Charles Givens now observes Oswald reading a newspaper in
the domino lunchroom, which is located on the first floor. (He will
later deny testifying to this account) William Shelley will testify he
sees Oswald when Givens came down to lunch at about 10 minutes to
twelve. (See 12:00 PM for next Oswald sighting)

In any event, it's fairly certain that (at some point just prior to
12:00) Oswald did ask for an elevator to be returned back up to him on
the sixth floor."

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/8823834c81dea1be

"It's very likely that no one inside the Book Depository Building saw
Lee Oswald after approx. 11:55 AM on November 22nd, until LHO was next
seen by Marrion Baker at approx. 12:31-12:32 PM on the second floor."

You're right because when Bonnie Ray Williams goes to eat his lunch on
the 6th floor he will NOT see LHO up there.

"Carolyn Arnold has stated her belief that she saw Oswald in the
lunchroom, eating his lunch, at either 12:15 PM or about 12:25 PM
(over the years, she apparently has used both of those time
estimates).

It was 12:15 p.m. and she saw him sitting in a booth on the right-hand
side of the second floor lunchroom when she entered. This was key and
the FBI would alter her statement to say she just "glimpsed" LHO in
the hallway to make it sound like she could be wrong.

"But other witness testimony tends to debunk Carolyn Arnold's "I Saw
LHO In The Lunchroom" account. And, in my view, there's just too much
evidence (overall) that concretely puts Oswald on the 6th Floor during
the approximate timeframe when Arnold claimed he was in the
lunchroom."

Lay it out then, why are you saying this but not showing us who
refuted her statement?

"11:55 AM-12:05 PM (estimated) -- Oswald has the whole sixth floor to
himself. This is just prior to Bonnie Ray Williams coming back up to
the 6th Floor to eat his lunch. It's my belief that Lee Oswald, during
this (approx.) 10-minute time period around noon or shortly after,
probably went to the west end of the sixth floor (where he had his
rifle hidden in the brown bag)."

12:00 PM - Bonnie Ray Williams returns to the sixth floor with his
lunch, fried chicken, in a paper bag. He does not see Oswald or
Douglas Givens on the sixth floor. Eddie Piper, an employee of the
TBSD, will see LHO on the first floor of the building. According to
Piper, Oswald tells him "I'm going up to eat". Oswald then goes to the
second floor and purchases his lunch from one of the vending machines.
(See 12:15 PM for next sighting of Oswald)

"Oswald unwraps the rifle at the west end of the sixth floor and
assembles the rifle at the west end (hence, Arnold Rowland sees a
white man with a rifle at the west end of the building at approx. this
time, maybe a little later, 12:15 or so, but keep in mind the
approximation of all times)."

Pure speculation as the ONLY person on the sixth floor did NOT see LHO
up there.

"It's quite possible, IMO, that Oswald initially was considering using
the WEST-end window as his shooting window. But, for one reason or
another, he decided that a window on the EAST end of the sixth floor
would better serve his purposes.

Why would he pick a window with a big tree in the way?

"Perhaps he was mentally factoring in the angles and trajectories in
his head, and possibly realized that an east-end perch would be a
better one, especially since the Secret Service agents would all have
their backs to him when he began firing, if he decided to wait until
after the cars had turned to Elm/Houston corner....which, IMO, Oswald
definitely had in his mind to do, due to the pre-arranged way the
rifle-rest boxes were constructed (i.e., in a "Rifle Always Pointing
West/Southwest" manner)."

Any proof of this, like LHO saying this on the record? I didn't think
so. So he would choose the window further from the ideal shooting
spot (unless you fired when the car was on Houston St.) and one with a
huge tree in the way. Makes sense.

"It's also possible that, as Oswald mulled over potential shooting
locations, he realized that a goodly number of boxes were already down
on the east end of the 6th Floor, which would make constructing a
makeshift "Nest" all the easier for him.

Any proof? What happened to the bag? How did he make the bag?

"Perhaps--just perhaps--Oswald had it in his mind that he would be
able to re-insert the weapon back into that bag and, just maybe, get
the incriminating rifle out of the building the same way he smuggled
it in--in the brown paper package that supposedly contained those
never-found "curtain rods"."

What bag?

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7a460183ae4c6c41

"Yes, that last part is fairly weak...I'll admit that. I don't much
like that idea either. For, Oswald would surely have known that he
wouldn't have the time (or want to take time) to dismantle the rifle
AFTER shooting at the President.

I love how the day he allegedly brings a rifle to work the President
passes right below his window. How convenient for a would be assassin
who can't drive.

"12:00-12:05 PM -- Oswald (with his rifle and the paper bag) moves to
the east end of the sixth floor, where Oswald works on constructing
his Sniper's Nest. Now, some of these boxes might have been pretty
close to the SN window already...which, as I mentioned, could have
been a partial factor in Oswald choosing that southeast corner window
to begin with. So, perhaps the building of the "Nest" wasn't as
difficult or as time-consuming as some people seem to think it had to
be.

Notice how he glosses over the fact Bonnie Ray Williams said he
returned to the sixth floor for lunch at 12:00 p.m. How could LHO do
all this stuff with him up there? It is all pure speculation.

"12:05-12:15 PM (estimated) -- Oswald can hear Bonnie Ray Williams in
the middle portion of the sixth floor, near the south windows, as
Williams eats his lunch. I think, therefore, it's logical to assume
that Oswald would have been trying to remain extra quiet as he hides
within his "Nest" of boxes (whether the Nest is totally complete or
not, we cannot know; but we do know that some boxes in that southeast
corner are prohibiting Williams from seeing deep into that
corner). ...."

This is ridiculous! Williams NEVER saw LHO and the floor was wide
open as everything was moved to the ends of the warehouse as they were
reflooring. Notice also that while Dave has him doing all of this on
the sixth floor Carolyn Arnold will see him in the second floor
lunchroom.

12:15 PM - Carolyn Arnold, secretary to the VP of the TSBD, goes into
the lunchroom on the second floor and sees Oswald sitting in one of
the booth seats on the right hand side of the room. He is alone and
appears to be having lunch. The motorcade will be by in 15 minutes.
(See 12:20 PM for the next Oswald sighting)

> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm

"But Oswald's rifle was probably already completely assembled when
Williams was on the sixth floor....so there's no need for any noise to
be coming from the metal parts in this "rifle" regard.

This is all speculation, Mr. Williams will say he saw no one on the
floor when he left at 12:20 p.m. I'm sure he would have seen and
heard LHO if he were there.

"Re. Howard Brennan -- I'm going to have to take issue with Mr.
Brennan's account of seeing Oswald sitting "sideways on the window
sill", however. I'm just doubting that was even physically possible,
given the arrangement of book cartons IN the window itself. And it
doesn't seem likely that Oswald would want to sit up on the sill
anyhow, thereby making himself even MORE visible to anyone outside.

"So, Brennan could very well be correct re. the "sideways on the sill"
observation. But I'm going to exercise my proverbial "grain of salt"
option when considering the accuracy of such a "sideways on the sill"
observation."

This is all speculation.

> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brennan.htm

"12:10-12:15 PM (estimated) -- Bonnie Ray Williams finishes his
"chicken-on-the-bone" sandwich (~LOL~) and his Dr. Pepper soft drink
and vacates the sixth floor (after Williams heard some activity on the
5th Floor below him). Williams takes an elevator down one flight to
join two other employees on the fifth floor to watch the motorcade.

Lee Oswald now is alone, once again, on the Texas School Book
Depository's sixth floor. He has approximately 15 minutes to wait
until the President will come into his view on the street below him."

12:20 PM - Bonnie Ray Williams testifies that, at this time, **the
sixth floor of the TSBD is apparently vacant as he leaves it to go
downstairs.** Williams had gone to the sixth floor to eat his lunch.
(The WC will later say Oswald is on the sixth floor from 11:55 AM to
12:30 PM)

"During these last few minutes prior to 12:30 PM, it's possible that
Oswald puts some finishing touches on his Sniper's Nest....and/or his
rifle-rest cartons."

12:25 PM - Depository employee Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald on the first
floor near the front door of the building.

"Regarding the 5th-Floor witnesses (Harold Norman, James Jarman, and
Bonnie Ray Williams), and what they heard.....

BUGLIOSI -- "And by 'hulls', you mean cartridge casings?"
NORMAN -- "Cartridges."
BUGLIOSI -- "How many did you hear falling to the floor?"
NORMAN -- "Three.""

It is funny you don't mention Mr. Norman denying that he said this to
the SS agent who interviewed him. Let's look at this testimony:

Q. "The document I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do
you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, special agent of
the Secret Service, on that day? "
Norman: "I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr.
Carter."
Q. "I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I
will ask you if you told him that: 'Just after the President passed
by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots.
I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could
hear he expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the
bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the the
ceiling of the fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the
shots was directly above me.Did you make that statement to the Secret
Service man? "
Norman: "I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots
came from directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't
remember saying I heard several seconds later. I merely told him that
I heard three shots because I didn't have any idea what time it was."

Mr. Norman would flatly deny ever saw "dust falling from the
ceiling." (XVII,208)

>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/fa26e26f62263eeb

"Now, as far as the 5th-Floor witnesses not specifically hearing any
footsteps from the assassin upstairs just before and just after the
assassination -- I'd ask: What difference does that really make?"

Nice try, if they can hear cartridges hitting the floor how come they
did not hear footsteps? It seems of the two the footsteps of a running
man would be easier to hear.

"Obviously, SOMEBODY was up on that 6th Floor, in that Sniper's Nest,
firing a gun (be it Lee Harvey Oswald or somebody else....SOME HUMAN
BEING WITH TWO FEET was up there with a gun)."

What's this? Dave admitting it may not be LHO? You are finally
coming around.

"So the conspiracy theorists who think it's odd to have Norman,
Jarman, and Williams not hearing the footsteps of Oswald just prior to
and just after 12:30 on November 22nd are not thinking the situation
through logically.

12:30 PM - James Altgens takes his famous photo and a man who many
people think strongly resembles Oswald is standing near the front
entrance of the TSBD. The WC will discount any thought of this and
claim it is Billy Lovelady. The man in the photo is wearing a dark ,
heavy textured shirt open halfway to the waist over a white
undershirt. Lovelady will later tell reporters he was wearing a red-
and-white sport shirt that day. (See 12:32 PM for the next Oswald
sighting)

"POST-SHOOTING CHRONOLOGY......

Dave, you are slipping. Three of four shots? The WC would claim LHO
only fired three shots. You are really becomming a CTer right before
our eyes.

Williams did NOT vacate until 12:20 and testified he saw NO one when
he left, so the earliest LHO could have come back was 12:21 or 12:22
p.m. The FBI said it took 6-7 minutes to assemble the rifle so we are
looking at one minute or two tops to sight the scope, oh sorry it was
hanging off, and get ready for the limo. Very unlikely.

"12:30:30 PM -- Lee Harvey Oswald's task is completed. He pauses at
the window for just a moment (per Brennan's account), and then
disappears from Brennan's view.

How did he shells get in a neat little row? What happened to the bag
because the man who discovered the nest, Officer Mooney, did not see
it as he never mentions it in his report or inventory log?

"It's my personal belief that Oswald (during this trip to the NW
corner) was wiping as many fingerprints off of his Mannlicher-Carcano
rifle as he could in the time allowed. He was very likely (IMO) using
the brown shirt in which he was arrested to perform this print-wiping
task."

He was a master wiper as there were NO prints left on the rifle.

"Oswald gets to the northwest corner of the building without being
seen by anyone. He notices that neither of the two freight elevators
is on his floor. So he's forced to take the nearby stairs in that NW
corner of the building.

Why bother to slip the rifle back into the bag when you are leaving
shell casing behind? Why hide the rifle as well?

All speculation.

"Continuing on with Oswald's post-shooting movements......

12:32 PM - Officer Baker and Roy Truly ID Oswald on second floor.
Oswald is also seen on the second floor by TBSD employee, Mrs. Robert
Reid, as she returns to her desk. Oswald calmly walks east and south
to the second floor stairwell and descends down to the first floor of
the building and exits the TSBD from the main entrance - before the
police seal off the building.

"Oswald is then stopped at gunpoint in the 2nd-Floor lunchroom by
Officer M.L. Baker. LHO is then immediately cleared as an employee and
is let go by Baker.

Oswald is calm, silent, and unflustered during his encounter with
Baker (per Baker's testimony). This reaction, IMO, is much more
indicative of GUILT than with INNOCENCE."

Sure your a pyschiatrist, right?

"If innocent, isn't it quite likely that Oswald would have been a bit
scared, rattled, and probably would have at least said to Baker, "What
the hell is this?! What's going on?! I didn't do anything! Why are you
stopping me?!"

Oswald, instead, is dead-quiet. Never changing his expression one bit
(per Baker)."

> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm

"12:32 PM -- Oswald then buys a soft drink from the soda machine in
the lunchroom, and then strolls casually and unhurriedly toward the
stairs near the 2nd-Floor offices (after having just been cleared as a
worker in the building, thereby probably allowing Oswald to relax a
little bit more at that point in time).

12:33 PM - The Warren Commission states: This is the earliest time
Oswald could have exited the building after shooting JFK. Oswald would
later testify that a Secret Service man will stop him in front of the
TBSD and ask where the nearest phone is located. The SS man may
actually be Pierce Allman, a crewcut reporter, who enters the TSBD to
telephone a report to WFAA. Others have said it is Robert McNeil.
During his interrogation Fritz, and the other interrogators, will
never ask which exit he used, whether a policeman had been stationed
at the exit, if so, was he prevented from leaving or was his ID
checked.

12:36 PM - According to the WC, Oswald boards the bus driven by Cecil
McWatters and is claimed to be recognized by Mary Bledsoe. He
supposedly walks past her and goes to the back of the bus. When the
traffic becomes bad he walks to the front of the bus and takes a
transfer. On November 23, 1963 she will remember Oswald wore a "brown
shirt with holes in the elbows" and "ragged gray work pants". The
driver, McWatters, remembers giving a man a transfer (and a woman
too), but he didn't remember what types of clothes he was wearing
beyond "work clothes". He could not specifically say that Oswald was
the man on the bus or the one who made the comment about the President
being shot in the right temple. He does pick out a man in a DPD lineup
because he was the only one wearing clothes anywhere near the man on
the bus. Roy Jones was a passenger too, and he said a dark haired man
and a blond woman got on together. The man sat in the seat behind
him, but the woman went further to the back of the bus. Jones, along
with McWatters, heard the woman say she had to catch a train at 1:00
PM and she had a suitcase. About six blocks after they got on, and
before the police entered the bus, they got off. She got a transfer
and then left by the back of the bus and the man left by the front.
Jones wouldn't be interviewed until March 30, 1964, but he said he
never really got a good look at the man and couldn't identify him as
being identical with LHO. At this interview, he said the driver told
him the man was Oswald, but 4 months later in an FBI interview, he
said the man was wearing "a light blue jacket and gray khaki pants".
The WC claim Oswald gets off with his transfer and walks two blocks
south on Lamar St. and says to William Whaley "May I have this cab"?

12:38 PM - Latin man is detained by the DPD whom they have seized on
Elm Street. (Roger Craig will state this is the same man he will see
driving the Rambler station wagon who will pick up a man in front of
the TSBD in a few minutes) The police let him go when he indicates he
can't speak English.

"12:40 PM -- Oswald boards a bus on Elm Street, east of the TSBD. He
stays on the bus about 4 minutes, gets a transfer from driver Cecil
McWatters, and then exits the bus. Mary Bledsoe positively identifies
Oswald as having been on board McWatters' bus on 11/22/63."

12:40 PM - Roger Craig will see a light colored Rambler pick up a man
he will later ID as Oswald from the TSBD. He also states the man
driving is the man the DPD released a few minutes before. Quite a few
other witneses will see the Rambler and a picture of the car will turn
up years later. According to the WC: This is the time LHO boards a
bus on Elm St. seven short blocks from the TSBD. The bus is traveling
west to the very building LHO just left. He would have had to walk at
a very brisk pace to cover the seven blocks and then he will be
heading back to the TSBD after he boards. McWatters and Jones will
disagree with Bledsoe, the main witness, on two points, 1) the man is
wearing a jacket and 2) he sits closer to the front, right behind
Jones.

"Oswald, in an out-of-character move (given his usual tightfisted
habits), spends 95 cents ($1.00 with the whopping tip given to driver
William Whaley) on a cab ride from the Greyhound bus station to the
general area of his Oak Cliff roominghouse."

12:44 PM - This is the time LHO, as his bus approaches the congestion
of Dealey Plaza, gets off the bus and supposedly walks south to the
Greyhound Bus station in search of a cab.

"Oswald has Whaley take him PAST the roominghouse at 1026 North
Beckley Avenue (probably so that Lee can check to see if any cops are
near his home at the time), with Oswald getting out of Whaley's cab at
the intersection of Neely and Beckley, three blocks beyond his rented
room."

12:48 PM - The Warren Commission says: Oswald gets into a cab at the
Greyhound Bus station that is five blocks from Dealey Plaza. The
driver is William Whaley. Whaley's log for 11/22/63 will show he
takes a single passenger from the Greyhound Bus station to 500 N.
Beckley. It shows the trip took between 12:30 and 12:45 PM. IF his
time record is correct, it means Oswald boards his cab at the exact
time JFK is assassinated. The WC will later try and explain this away
by saying Whaley logged in quarter-hour intervals, regardless of their
actual length. But Whaley's log proves this theory to be in error.
Further, Whaley testifys that just as he was about to drive off, an
old lady who sees his passenger enter his cab, tells Whaley she wants
a cab too. Whaley's passenger opens the door and tells the old lady
she can have this one. She says Whaley can simply call her another
one. Based on Whaley's testimony the WC concludes without a doubt
that Oswald was the passenger he took from the Greyhound Bus station
to 500 N. Beckly that day. To do this the WC they have to first
disprove almost every statement initially made by Whaley!

"Oswald then backtracks the three blocks and rushes into his
roominghouse at approx. 12:59-1:00 PM.

Housekeeper Earlene Roberts said the following (during a re-enactment
that was done for the 1964 movie "Four Days In November").....

1:00 PM - Butch Burroughs, an employee of the Texas Theater, hears
someone enter the theater shortly after 1:00 PM and go to the
balcony. LHO has apparently entered the theater and gone to the
balcony without being seen by Burroughs.

1:01 PM - Oswald is seen by Jimmy Burt and William A. Smith walking
west. (WC says east)

1:03 PM - Oswald leaves his rooming house. He is last seen by the
housekeeper at the bus stop a short distance away. He will have to
cover a mile in 8 minutes or less to shoot JDT at the time the WC
claims it happens. (Supposedly Oswald retrieves his pistol )

1:04 PM - Helen Markham leaves the washateria of her apartment near
the corner of 9th and Patton. While walking south on Patton she
notices a police car driving slowly east on 10th St. One Half block
in front of her, cab driver William Scoggins is eating his lunch in
his cab. Scoggins notices a man walking west as J.D. Tippit's car
passes in front of him. Jack Tatum, sitting in his red 1964 Ford
Galaxie, a block east notices the same turn and walk toward the police
car. Tatum turns left onto 10th street and drives slowly west past
Tippit's car.

1:10 PM - Officer Tippit in car #10 now supposedly spots a man walking
east on 10th street (Oswald) who seems to fit the description of the
suspect assailant in Dealey Plaza. Tippit then supposedly stops and
calls the man over to his car. The man walks over to the car, leans
down, speaks to Tippit through the window on the passenger's side.
There is no indication that Tippit is at all concerned about the
possibility of danger. Then, according to the WCR, Tippit gets out and
starts to walk around the front of the car. As Tippit reaches the
left front wheel, the man pulls out a revolver and fires several
shots. At the sound of shots, Tatum turns to see the man walk around
the car and shoot Tippit in the head. He says, "whoever shot Tippit
was determined that he shouldn't live and he was determined to finish
the job".

"1:14-1:15 PM -- Oswald shoots and kills Dallas policeman J.D. Tippit
on Tenth Street (0.85 of a mile from the roominghouse Oswald just left
a short time earlier)."

The shooting occured between 1:06 and 1:10 p.m. Witness testimony
shows it could not have been later, but the WC will just decide to
change the timeline to fit their needs.

"Multiple witnesses verify it was Lee Harvey Oswald who killed Officer
Tippit. Bullet shells from Oswald's revolver ("to the exclusion") were
recovered by THREE different witnesses at the Tippit murder scene."

No one said it was LHO based on his face, only one shaky witness will
be coerced into saying it was LHO, but no one else at the scene agrees
with her on anything.

> THE TIPPIT MURDER AND THE HILARIOUS ATTEMPTS TO DEFEND MR. OSWALD:http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85fe573544d89f90

"Oswald is next seen by Johnny Brewer at approx. 1:35 to 1:40 PM.
Brewer notices Oswald's "funny" and "scared" look as LHO lurks in the
entrance of Brewer's shoe store.

Brewer sounds like a LNer as he can tell who is an assassin by "funny"
and "scared" looks.

"The following passage can be found in Julia Postal's WC testimony
transcript....

Dave fails to mention she said the man was in the balcony and the
first cops on the scene went there and were questioning a man they
would later take out the back door. Only when Hutson, Walker and
MacDonald come do they look on the floor of the theater and find the
"patsy."

It is interesting that Officer MacDonald is the one to get into a
fight with LHO as I have read for many years now he was the one
selected to shoot LHO at the theater. LHO outsmarted them by saying
loudly "I'm not resisting arrest."

"After his arrest, Oswald repeatedly lies to the authorities about
important issues connected to the investigation of the murders of
President Kennedy and Officer Tippit...."

More speculation with no proof. DVP has no way of knowing if LHO lied
or not, in fact, we don't even know all that was said since the DPD
failed to record or take notes during the three interrogations.

> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/ea04b9e6141f0098
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/beb8390c3526124d
>
> ======================

"The above "Oswald timeline" is not perfect. It has some weaknesses,
yes. The "Rowland" timeline isn't a perfect dead-on match. And the
"Bonnie Ray Williams" timeframe isn't rock-solid either."

It is all speculation as the evidence does not support your claims.

"But those witnesses were not staring at their watches when they
observed the things they observed and did the things they did on
11/22/63. And I'd say, generally-speaking (give or take a very few
minutes in "real time"), that those witness accounts of the events of
that November day work out pretty close to corroborating the general
"Oswald timeline" I've laid out in this post.

"The long and the short of the matter is this --- Just about every
last thing Lee Harvey Oswald did following the assassination of John
F. Kennedy indicates a GUILTY LEE HARVEY OSWALD."

If only the evidence showed this we could have put this to rest 44
years ago, but it doesn't so there are still people out there who have
reaped the rewards of killing a President they didn't agree with.

David Von Pein

unread,

Feb 18, 2008, 4:06:46 AM2/18/08

www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/449aa00a62b093c3

>>> "I love how the day he {LHO} allegedly brings a rifle to work the President passes right below his window. How convenient for a would-be assassin who can't drive." <<<

Yeah, imagine Oswald actually having planned out something like that
-- i.e., actually knowing that he'd need a rifle (or some such similar
weapon) with which to shoot the President as he drove by the building
on Friday.

Versus the fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants type of assassination plan
which would have had Oswald utilizing an apple from somebody's lunch
box and an empty Dr. Pepper bottle with which to try and kill the
President.*

* = Via this "OOPS, I FORGOT MY RIFLE, BUT I STILL WANT TO TRY AND
MURDER THE PRESIDENT" haphazard type of plan, Oswald (using the
aforementioned apple and/or soda-pop bottle) would perform a "wind-
up", like a baseball pitcher, and fire his best fastball in the
direction of JFK's limousine as it passed by the building....in the
hopes of striking the President a fatal blow to the head (or other
bodily part that got in the way of Oswald's deadly apple blast).

Tell us again, Rob, why it was unusual for assassin Lee Harvey Oswald
to have toted a rifle into the Depository on the day he knew the
President was going to be driving by the building?

Should Oz have waited until the following MONDAY, perhaps, to carry
his rifle to work--instead of taking it there on the day he was going
to need it to murder his prey?

(I seem to be short a "DUH!" icon here. And, man-baby, I really need
one of those things now!)

>>> "{Bonnie Ray} Williams did NOT vacate {the TSBD's 6th Floor} until 12:20 and testified he saw NO one when he left, so the earliest LHO could have come back was 12:21 or 12:22 p.m." <<<

Once more, we have a conspiracy-loving kook placing more exactitude on
"times" than can actually be placed on such things. Williams' "12:20"
statement was an "estimate"....a mere "approximation"....and everybody
knows it. Even Williams, himself, knew it was only an approximated
time estimate...and he even said so, in just those words. ....

BONNIE R. WILLIAMS -- "It was after I had left the sixth floor, after
I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich
maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time
it was."

JOE BALL -- "Approximately what time was it?"

WILLIAMS -- "Approximately 12:20, maybe."

==========

Worth an instant replay:

WILLIAMS -- "Approximately 12:20, maybe."

Williams even added a "maybe" in there too...which additionally makes
Williams' timeline testimony fall into the "estimated" category all
the more.

But to CTers, the "12:20" is rooted in fact, as if the precise moment
when Bonnie Ray Williams vacated the sixth floor on 11/22/63 had been
noted by the Naval Observatory or NORAD or something. Ridiculous.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm

REPRISE:

>>> "Williams did NOT vacate {the TSBD's 6th Floor} until 12:20 and testified he saw NO one when he left, so the earliest LHO could have come back was 12:21 or 12:22 p.m." <<<

You're an idiot.

Oswald was probably ALREADY HIDING IN THE SNIPER'S NEST the entire
time that Williams was on the sixth floor. Williams, as I verified via
his testimony linked previously (and re-posted below), said he could
not see the eastern part of the 6th Floor, due to the high stacks of
boxes that blocked his line of sight.

So, Oswald could very well have already been hiding in his makeshift
"Nest", and almost certainly was hiding there, while Williams ate his
"chicken-on-the-bone sandwich" [proverbial LOL]. .....

"Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor,
because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only
in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly
see anything to the east side of the building." -- Bonnie Ray Williams

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm

>>> "The FBI said it took 6-7 minutes to assemble the rifle so we are looking at one minute or two tops to sight the scope, oh sorry it was hanging off, and get ready for the limo. Very unlikely." <<<

Read my "Timeline" post again. You skipped a few things. There was
enough time for Oswald to assemble his rifle in private, without
Williams (or Givens) having to get in the way of Ozzie's task.

www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3a3d654f3c43ed16

And, again, you're placing way too much importance on the approximate
times given by witnesses. NONE of the times stated by ANY witnesses
that we've been talking about today are firmly rooted in
concrete....and that's very important to always keep in mind. (But
CTers, as usual, never seem to want to keep it in mind.) ~shrug~

>>> "How did the shells get in a neat little row?" <<<

They were never ever in a "neat little row". That's Liar "7.65" Craig
talking. And (naturally) you believe Craig over this documented
photograph of the shells in the Nest:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0124a.htm

Another of the many "fake" pictures connected to this case, right Rob-
Kook?

Any chance of you proving that the above picture does NOT represent
the three cartridge cases as they were when first discovered in the
Sniper's Nest on 11/22/63?

Didn't think you could.

>>> "What happened to the bag, because the man who discovered the nest, Officer Mooney, did not see it as he never mentions it in his report or inventory log?" <<<

So? Other officers who were ALSO there at approximately the same time
DID see the empty paper bag in the Sniper's Nest (J.C. Day and Robert
Studebaker). Are they both liars, while Mooney is the truth-teller?

And why wasn't Mooney told to "lie" his way out of this "bag"
situation, btw? Apparently Day and Studebaker got the "WE'RE ALL
FRAMING OSWALD TODAY" memo on November 22nd.

I wonder why the sheriff's deputies (like Mooney and Weitzman and
Craig) were left out of the "Police Liar's Club", and were left to
tell the whole truth of what happened that day?

Kinda strange, wasn't it?

>>> "He {Sweet Lee Harvey} was a master wiper, as there were NO prints left on the rifle." <<<

Lookie, ma! The kook's dead-wrong again!

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0158b.htm

>>> "The {Tippit} shooting occured between 1:06 and 1:10 p.m. Witness testimony shows it could not have been later, but the WC will just decide to change the timeline to fit their needs." <<<

Seeing as how we KNOW beyond every single shred of a doubt that Lee
Oswald was Tippit's killer, the timeline witnesses are meaningless,
regardless of what time they said the shooting occurred.

Incredibly, CT-Kooks like Rob are willing to let Ozzie go free based
on a measly 240 seconds in real time. We're only talking about a four-
minute differential here (between Bowley's 1:10 timeline and 1:14,
which is the moment when the shooting most likely occurred, based on
the DPD Radio logs and Dale Myers' extensive research on the Tippit
murder).

If you'll look at the testimony and affidavits of various Dealey Plaza
witnesses, I think you'll find that some witnesses said that President
Kennedy was shot at a time other than when we know the assassination
took place (which was precisely 12:30).

Do those slight timeline discrepancies mean that JFK was REALLY shot
at a time other than 12:30 PM? Answer -- of course not.

That's not a perfect parallel to the Oswald/Tippit scenario over on
Tenth Street, but the main point here is that people generally do not
judge EXACT times very well. There are almost always discrepancies in
such testimony.

And there are so many varying factors and potential "timeline"
differences that could enter into the scenario surrounding Oswald's
activities following the assassination at 12:30.

Such as:

We can't possibly know with 100% certainty how fast or slow Oswald was
walking and/or running at ANY point in time after he departed the TSBD
at approx. 12:33 PM on November 22. All times regarding LHO's
movements are, therefore, just approximations. There is no way around
this fact.

And we can't know with 100% certainty just exactly how long it took
cab driver William W. Whaley to transport Oswald from the bus station
to Neely & Beckley in Oak Cliff that Friday.

Whaley estimated his run, and he re-enacted it on multiple occasions
(for the FBI/WC and for the United Artists "Four Days In November"
movie-making crew in 1964), but it's still not possible to know how
many minutes (exactly) it took Whaley to make that trip on 11/22/63.
It's an estimate. Period.

And we also have to rely on the testimony of just ONE single witness
(Earlene Roberts) when it comes to the timeline issue of when Oswald
entered his roominghouse on Beckley on the afternoon of the
assassination (and the issue of how long LHO stayed in his crackerbox-
sized room after entering that residence on Beckley Avenue, which I
maintain was an amount of time that was much less than Mrs. Roberts'
stated "3 to 4 minutes").

ANY of the above timeline issues, when utilizing an ordinary amount of
common sense plus the proverbial and always-present "plus-or-minus"
factor, could easily accommodate the "OSWALD KILLED J.D. TIPPIT"
scenario.

And, based on the fact we do know Oswald killed Tippit via all kinds
of witness and ballistics proof, it's fairly obvious that mere
"timeline discrepancies" alone cannot and will not exonerate Mr.
Oswald. Period.

>>> "No one said it was LHO based on his face." <<<

Oh, yeah! That's right! All of those Tippit witnesses (approx. a dozen
in total) positively identified the man they saw as Lee Harvey Oswald
based on looking at the killer's shoes and socks. I forgot about that.
Thanks for reminding me, Robert.

(Thank God we have Robert Caprio to straighten these things out for us
weak-minded LNers.)

>>> "{Johnny Calvin} Brewer sounds like a LNer, as he can tell who is an assassin by "funny" and "scared" looks." <<<

Brewer didn't know for sure whether or not Oswald was an "assassin"
when he observed LHO on Jefferson Boulevard on November 22nd. Why
you're jumping to this conclusion must be another hint as to why
you're the ABO Mega-Kook you currently are (or are pretending to be,
at any rate).

Brewer had his suspicions about the man who appeared in his storefront
looking "scared" and "running" and "funny", yes. His suspicions turned
out to be spot-on accurate ones too.

So, I suppose you'd now like to label Mr. Brewer (a true unsung hero
on 11/22/63 if you want my opinion about him) as one of the
"conspirators" in your make-believe assassination plot too...huh Rob?

Why not? After all, per CTers, it would seem that the vast majority of
the population of Dallas, New Orleans, and Washington were out to nail
this schnook named Oswald....so why not shoe salesman Johnny Brewer
too? Throw in theater cashier Julia Postal too while you're at it. It
was her phone call which directly led to LHO's capture, so she surely
can't be any ol' innocent bystander. Right?

Don't disappoint me. Show me your true Kook Stripes here, Rob. I'm due
for my daily belly-laugh.

[Excising remainder of Rob's normal pro-conspiracy mush. My stomach
can only handle so much poppycock from Robby in a single session. And
my "Kook Kapacity" has been reached for this post. Thanks Robby. And
keep searching for those make-believe assassins. In the year 2525--"if
man is still alive"--perhaps one of your future relatives will finally
unearth one of the real culprits.]

www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com

www.JFK-Audio-Video-Page.blogspot.com

robcap...@netscape.com

unread,

Feb 18, 2008, 1:27:30 PM2/18/08

On Feb 18, 4:06 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/449aa00a62b093c3
>
> >>> "I love how the day he {LHO} allegedly brings a rifle to work the President passes right below his window. How convenient for a would-be assassin who can't drive." <<<

"Yeah, imagine Oswald actually having planned out something like that
-- i.e., actually knowing that he'd need a rifle (or some such similar
weapon) with which to shoot the President as he drove by the building
on Friday."

What are the odds of the President's limo passing below his building
to make it so easy in regards to him NOT having to go to the target?
Throw in the two illegal turns, poor SS and police protection, the
motorcade being 10 minutes behind schedule and the extreme slow speed
(all things LHO had NO control over) and this is a miracle second only
to the immaculate conception.

"Versus the fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants type of assassination plan
which would have had Oswald utilizing an apple from somebody's lunch
box and an empty Dr. Pepper bottle with which to try and kill the
President.*

No, the usual scenario is the professional hitter is hired and they
stake out a location and then do the deed, they don't just show up to
work and have the target laid out on a silver platter for them. They
wouldn't command the money they get if it was this easy.

"Tell us again, Rob, why it was unusual for assassin Lee Harvey Oswald
to have toted a rifle into the Depository on the day he knew the
President was going to be driving by the building?"

Because there is conjecture about him knowing the President was coming
that day as there are witnesses that testified to the fact LHO had no
idea what all the fuss was about. Also, the WC failed to show beyond
all doubt that LHO read the parade route changes published in the
papers on the 19th and 20th. They just said he did, but the didn't
prove it. He also had no control over the speed, the turns, the SS and
police protection, and the stand down of the Army group stationed
nearby, so he was facing an unbelievable task if this things did NOT
happen.

"Should Oz have waited until the following MONDAY, perhaps, to carry
his rifle to work--instead of taking it there on the day he was going
to need it to murder his prey?"

Why not get off this speculation merry go-round and prove he knew for
sure JFK would be coming so close to his place of work? Good luck as
the WC couldn't.

"(I seem to be short a "DUH!" icon here. And, man-baby, I really need
one of those things now!)"

Any icon will due, except for the proof and evidence icons of course.

> >>> "{Bonnie Ray} Williams did NOT vacate {the TSBD's 6th Floor} until 12:20 and testified he saw NO one when he left, so the earliest LHO could have come back was 12:21 or 12:22 p.m." <<<

"Once more, we have a conspiracy-loving kook placing more exactitude
on "times" than can actually be placed on such things. Williams'
"12:20" statement was an "estimate"....a mere "approximation"....and
everybody knows it. Even Williams, himself, knew it was only an
approximated time estimate...and he even said so, in just those
words. ....

JOE BALL -- "Approximately what time was it?"

WILLIAMS -- "Approximately 12:20, maybe."

Yes, but even 12:15 p.m. does not help your case by much as Ms. Arnold
saw LHO in the second floor lunchroom at that time. LHO still
wouldn't have gotten upstairs much before 12:20 p.m. and the issue is,
NO one saw him using an elevator at that time. I don't remember any
witnesses saying they saw him on the stairs at that time either, so
how did he get up to the sixth floor? As for Mr. Williams seeing LHO
or anyone else when he got up there here is his testimony:

Mr. Mccloy: "What time of day was this, when you were eating your
lunch?"
Mr. Williams: "About 12."
Mr. Mccloy: "Just 12?"
Mr. Williams: "Yes, sir."
Mr. Ball: "Now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where
you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner?"
Mr. Williams: "In the southeast--that is--the southeast. I really
don't remember if I seen anything-- it would be just the top edge of
the window, as I remember."
Mr. Ball: "Did you see anyone else up there that day?"
Mr. Williams: "No, I did not."

> ==========

"Worth an instant replay:

WILLIAMS -- "Approximately 12:20, maybe."

Williams even added a "maybe" in there too...which additionally makes
Williams' timeline testimony fall into the "estimated" category all
the more."

Worth a replay, how did he get to the sixth floor around 12:20 p.m.?
Also, explain why LHO is seen by Ms. Arnold near the front entrance
around 12:25 p.m. if he went to the sixth floor?

"But to CTers, the "12:20" is rooted in fact, as if the precise moment
when Bonnie Ray Williams vacated the sixth floor on 11/22/63 had been
noted by the Naval Observatory or NORAD or something. Ridiculous."

The time Mr. Williams (in terms of 5 minutes) is the least of your
worries as you have to explain how he got to to the sixth floor and
why Ms. Arnold saw him near the front entrance of the building just 5
minutes before the shooting. Get to work on those.

> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm

"REPRISE:

>>>Williams did NOT vacate {the TSBD's 6th Floor} until 12:20 and testified he saw NO one when he left, so the earliest LHO could have come back was 12:21 or 12:22 p.m." <<<

You're an idiot."

Reprise:

Mr. Ball: "Did you see anyone else up there that day?"
Mr. Williams: "No, I did not."

Again, a few minutes here or there is the least of your problem as you
have NO witness who saw LHO on an elevator or on the stairs around
this time, so how did he allegedly get to the sixth floor? Also, you
have to explain the sighting of him near the front entrance at 12:25
p.m.

"Oswald was probably ALREADY HIDING IN THE SNIPER'S NEST the entire
time that Williams was on the sixth floor. Williams, as I verified via
his testimony linked previously (and re-posted below), said he could
not see the eastern part of the 6th Floor, due to the high stacks of
boxes that blocked his line of sight."

Pure speculation as you have NO witness(es) to put him there at that
time.

"So, Oswald could very well have already been hiding in his makeshift
"Nest", and almost certainly was hiding there, while Williams ate his
"chicken-on-the-bone sandwich" [proverbial LOL]. ....."

Like Mr. Williams wouldn't have at least heard something if they were
the only two on the floor, come on. LHO was assembling a rifle
supposedly and moving boxes, how could he NOT hear anything? I know
why, because there was NO one else up there.

Mr. Ball: "Did you see anyone else up there that day?"
Mr. Williams: "No, I did not."

And the man had ears didn't he? How come he heard NOTHING?

> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm

> >>> "The FBI said it took 6-7 minutes to assemble the rifle so we are looking at one minute or two tops to sight the scope, oh sorry it was hanging off, and get ready for the limo. Very unlikely." <<<

"Read my "Timeline" post again. You skipped a few things. There was
enough time for Oswald to assemble his rifle in private, without
Williams (or Givens) having to get in the way of Ozzie's task."

I have read the posts and yes he is NOT definitive, but you can't
prove he didn't leave at 12:20 p.m., can you? Also, you have issue of
him getting up there and being seen near the front entrance to deal
with.

> www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3a3d654f3c43ed16

"And, again, you're placing way too much importance on the approximate
times given by witnesses. NONE of the times stated by ANY witnesses
that we've been talking about today are firmly rooted in
concrete....and that's very important to always keep in mind. (But
CTers, as usual, never seem to want to keep it in mind.) ~shrug~"

I love how we have to keep this in mind when the timeframes don't work
for the LNers, but we are supposed to except the wacky times given for
the WC star witnesses like they are the gospel. My point is still
valid even if you get 4 or 5 minutes back (and you haven't proved
12:20 was NOT the time he left as well) as it is still very little
time to be ready. Also, the President's limo was 10 minutes behind
schedule, so if it had been on time he would have missed him entirely
based on this whole timetable, whether he left at 12:15 or 12:20 p.m.
Also, you have no way to prove he went to the sixth floor around this
time anyway.

> >>> "How did the shells get in a neat little row?" <<<

"They were never ever in a "neat little row". That's Liar "7.65" Craig
talking. And (naturally) you believe Craig over this documented
photograph of the shells in the Nest:"

No it wasn't, Tom Alyea said the shell casings were so close together
they could be covered by a small basket. Also, documentation and
photographs seem to show only 2 shells were recovered. Here is that
part of his Shaw-Garrison trial testimony:

> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...

"Another of the many "fake" pictures connected to this case, right Rob-
Kook?"

How do we know this is the way they were found, we have Mr. Alyea
saying Capt. Fritz picked them up before they were photographed.

"Any chance of you proving that the above picture does NOT represent
the three cartridge cases as they were when first discovered in the
Sniper's Nest on 11/22/63?"

Yeah, here is Tom Alyea's testimony from the Shaw trial again:

"The barricade on the sixth floor ran parallel to the windows,
extending in an "L" shape that ended against the front wall between
the first and second twin windows. The height of the stack of boxes
was a minimum of 5 ft. I looked over the barricade and saw three shell
casings laying on the floor in front of the second window in the two
window casement. **They were scattered in an area that could be
covered by a bushel basket.** They were located about half way
between the inside of the barricade. I set my lens focus at the
estimated distance from the camera to the floor and held the camera
over the top of the barricade and filmed them before anybody went into
the enclosure. I could not position my eye to the camera's view finder
to get the shot. After filming the casings with my wide angle lens,
from a height of 5 ft., I asked Captain Fritz, who was standing at my
side, if I could go behind the barricade and get a close-up shot of
the casings. He told me that it would be better if I got my shots from
outside the barricade. He then rounded the pile of boxes and entered
the enclosure. This was the first time anybody walked between the
barricade and the windows."

Why was his film never viewed by the WC? Why was he never called to
testify?

"Didn't think you could."

Sorry, see above. Since we are demanding proof, show some that this
picture was taken on 11/22/63 and NOT staged later (like 11/23/63).

> >>> "What happened to the bag, because the man who discovered the nest, Officer Mooney, did not see it as he never mentions it in his report or inventory log?" <<<

"So? Other officers who were ALSO there at approximately the same time
DID see the empty paper bag in the Sniper's Nest (J.C. Day and Robert
Studebaker). Are they both liars, while Mooney is the truth-teller?"

Yes, because if it was there they should have photographed it being
there. Studebaker, by the way, was in training so anything he says is
questionable. You haven't explained why the officer who found the SN
did NOT note the bag or include it in his inventory log. He would
have seen it just as it was left, therefore, he is the one to believe.

"And why wasn't Mooney told to "lie" his way out of this "bag"
situation, btw? Apparently Day and Studebaker got the "WE'RE ALL
FRAMING OSWALD TODAY" memo on November 22nd."

I don't know, and I won't speculate like you do all time.

"I wonder why the sheriff's deputies (like Mooney and Weitzman and
Craig) were left out of the "Police Liar's Club", and were left to
tell the whole truth of what happened that day?"

Not all the cops were involved in the conspiracy, especially the
sherriff and his deputies, because they couldn't trust Sheriff Decker
at all.

"Kinda strange, wasn't it?"

Not really, they were only including those that could be trusted.
Thankfully they did, because the "non-included" ones have given us
many of the leads that showed the investigation was bogus.

> >>> "He {Sweet Lee Harvey} was a master wiper, as there were NO prints left on the rifle." <<<

"Lookie, ma! The kook's dead-wrong again!"

Sure, the tired old "palmprint" that was not photographed or seen by
the FBI. Good luck with that one.

> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...

> >>> "The {Tippit} shooting occured between 1:06 and 1:10 p.m. Witness testimony shows it could not have been later, but the WC will just decide to change the timeline to fit their needs." <<<

"Seeing as how we KNOW beyond every single shred of a doubt that Lee
Oswald was Tippit's killer, the timeline witnesses are meaningless,
regardless of what time they said the shooting occurred."

Only you and about 10% of our fellow Americans know LHO did it, most
of us who can think and read, know NOT one credible witness said it
was LHO who shot JDT.

"Incredibly, CT-Kooks like Rob are willing to let Ozzie go free based
on a measly 240 seconds in real time. We're only talking about a four-
minute differential here (between Bowley's 1:10 timeline and 1:14,
which is the moment when the shooting most likely occurred, based on
the DPD Radio logs and Dale Myers' extensive research on the Tippit
murder)."

The WC said it happened at 1:16 p.m. and I believe it occured at 1:06
p.m. so it is 10 minutes. It is key because the WC star witness should
have not been there given her reason for being there in the first
place - to catch a 1:15 p.m. bus! Based on the WC timeframe she would
have been long gone, thus, the time is key, as you have no witness
now.

"If you'll look at the testimony and affidavits of various Dealey
Plaza witnesses, I think you'll find that some witnesses said that
President Kennedy was shot at a time other than when we know the
assassination took place (which was precisely 12:30).

"Do those slight timeline discrepancies mean that JFK was REALLY shot
at a time other than 12:30 PM? Answer -- of course not."

We have better than witnesses though in this case, we have Craig and
the radio dispatch logs that showed the report of the shooting went
out around 1:06 p.m. Also, as stated above, your witness would have
been on her 1:15 p.m. bus at 1:16 p.m., so how could she have seen
anything?

"That's not a perfect parallel to the Oswald/Tippit scenario over on
Tenth Street, but the main point here is that people generally do not
judge EXACT times very well. There are almost always discrepancies in
such testimony."

Of course not, and these were seperate crimes, only the WC has made
them one to show LHO has a maniac.

"And there are so many varying factors and potential "timeline"
differences that could enter into the scenario surrounding Oswald's
activities following the assassination at 12:30.

Such as:

This is not what the WC put forth, they based their whole "conviction"
on their times being 100% accurate.

And we can't know with 100% certainty just exactly how long it took
cab driver William W. Whaley to transport Oswald from the bus station
to Neely & Beckley in Oak Cliff that Friday."

Even this can't be agreed on, as Whaley's log shows the man dropped
off at 500 N. Beckley, but the WC realized this was too far away so
they just up and changed it to 1026 to make it fit better. Is this
how an investigation should be run?

" Whaley estimated his run, and he re-enacted it on multiple occasions
(for the FBI/WC and for the United Artists "Four Days In November"
movie-making crew in 1964), but it's still not possible to know how
many minutes (exactly) it took Whaley to make that trip on 11/22/63.
It's an estimate. Period."

It could never be re-created accurately as the traffic was all backed
up due to the assassination, I would bet (without even viewing the
above-mentioned movie) they did not simulate the same amount of
traffic.

"And we also have to rely on the testimony of just ONE single witness
(Earlene Roberts) when it comes to the timeline issue of when Oswald
entered his roominghouse on Beckley on the afternoon of the
assassination (and the issue of how long LHO stayed in his crackerbox-
sized room after entering that residence on Beckley Avenue, which I
maintain was an amount of time that was much less than Mrs. Roberts'
stated "3 to 4 minutes")."

You, and the WC, rely on ONE witness for everything, you should be
used to it by now.

"ANY of the above timeline issues, when utilizing an ordinary amount
of common sense plus the proverbial and always-present "plus-or-minus"
factor, could easily accommodate the "OSWALD KILLED J.D. TIPPIT"
scenario."

NO, I think it shows the bull crap the WC put forth was NOT possible
at all.

"And, based on the fact we do know Oswald killed Tippit via all kinds
of witness and ballistics proof, it's fairly obvious that mere
"timeline discrepancies" alone cannot and will not exonerate Mr.
Oswald. Period."

We do? I guess I have missed this evidence and testimony for 20 +
years then, NOT! You have NO proof.

> >>> "No one said it was LHO based on his face." <<<

"Oh, yeah! That's right! All of those Tippit witnesses (approx. a
dozen in total) positively identified the man they saw as Lee Harvey
Oswald based on looking at the killer's shoes and socks. I forgot
about that. Thanks for reminding me, Robert.

(Thank God we have Robert Caprio to straighten these things out for us
weak-minded LNers.)"

Hey, I do what I can. How about pasting some of this testimony that
shows they said they ID'd LHO by his face beyond all doubt?

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