Lee Harvey Oswald, The TSBD Employees, And Those Stuck Elevators
David Von Pein
DEPOSITORY CO-WORKERS (AND SOME ELEVATOR TALK; PLUS A LITTLE "M.M." AT
THE END TOO)........
=================================================
On Friday, November 22, 1963 (the day of President Kennedy's
assassination), a group of Texas School Book Depository employees (who
were working on the sixth floor of that Dallas textbook warehouse
before lunchtime) "raced" the two freight elevators to the first floor
shortly before noon, with 24-year-old Lee Harvey Oswald being THE ONLY
EMPLOYEE who decided not to join his co-workers downstairs for lunch.
Oswald, instead, stayed on the sixth floor when the other employees
took the elevators downstairs. Oswald even asked for one of the two
elevators to be sent back up to him.*
* = I can't quite figure out, however (via the witness testimony), if
an elevator actually WAS sent back up to Oswald or not. Charles
Givens' testimony doesn't say one way or the other; and Bonnie Ray
Williams' WC testimony verifies that Oswald yelled for one of the boys
(Williams says he probably yelled at Givens specifically) to send an
elevator back up to him by closing the gate when the elevator reached
the first floor, but Williams never verified whether an elevator did,
in fact, go back up after the boys raced them both to the bottom
floor.
But if an elevator was sent back up, Oswald probably left the gate
open after it was sent back up to him; by doing this, the elevator
would have been stuck on the sixth floor.
The overall evidence indicates that no employees (other than Oswald)
were on the sixth floor at the exact time of the President's
assassination (12:30 PM).
Depository employee Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th Floor for a
short time just after 12:00, eating his chicken-sandwich lunch (with
Oswald more-than likely hiding in his "Nest" the whole time, without
Williams realizing he was there).
Before he joined James Jarman and Harold Norman on the 5th Floor
around 12:15, Williams left his empty lunch sack and Dr. Pepper soda
bottle near a hand cart ("two-wheeler truck") in the middle of the 6th
Floor.
Here's CE484, showing the cart/truck and soda bottle:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce484.jpg
Early news reports just after the assassination erroneously were
reporting that the assassin had been "snacking on a chicken lunch"
just before shooting President Kennedy....with some reporters going so
far as assuming the assassin had been camped out for "several days" in
the Sniper's Nest prior to performing the evil deed on November 22.
(That one always makes me laugh a tad bit.)
How both elevators came to be stuck on the FIFTH floor just after the
shooting.....
Bonnie Ray Williams, after eating his lunch on the 6th Floor, took the
east elevator down one floor to the 5th Floor to join Jarman and
Norman (although when he started down, Williams said he didn't know if
anyone was on that floor or not, but he thought there might have been,
because he heard someone "walking" around and the windows were "moving
or something").
Harold Norman testified that he and James Jarman took the west
elevator to the fifth floor (from the first floor) a short time before
the motorcade arrived in Dealey Plaza.
This is perfectly consistent with Depository Superintendent Roy
Truly's testimony....when Truly said that both freight elevators were
on the fifth floor when he and police officer Marrion Baker were
trying to retrieve one of them around 12:31 to 12:32.
Those stuck elevators on the fifth floor were indirectly responsible
for Oswald almost getting caught coming down the stairs. Because if
one of the elevators had been available to Truly and Baker, they would
not have needed to take the stairs and would have, instead, gone
straight to the seventh floor by elevator (seeing as how Baker thought
the shots had come from the roof of the building...via the pigeons
flying off the roof).
Final analysis.....
When all available evidence is weighed and considered, it can be
reasonably determined that nobody (except Lee Harvey Oswald) occupied
the 6th Floor of the Book Depository at the exact time of JFK's
murder.
=================================================
SOME FOLLOW-UP (CLARIFYING) "ELEVATOR" COMMENTS.......
By all accounts, it appears that Lee Oswald's request for an elevator
to be sent back up to him on the 6th Floor of the TSBD around 12:00
Noon on November 22nd was not granted.
Five TSBD employees raced the Book Depository's two freight elevators
from the 6th Floor to the 1st Floor at noontime on 11/22/63, with Lee
Oswald being the lone employee up on the sixth floor to not join this
group of five.
The five employees were: Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Charles Givens,
Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Arce.
Four of these five employees acknowledged the fact that Oswald yelled
down to the boys for an elevator to be sent back up, but none of the
employees actually verified that an elevator WAS sent back up to
Oswald.
Williams, in his Warren Commission testimony, said "I don't know what
happened after that", indicating that he didn't know if an elevator
was sent back up or not.
And this testimony from Charles Givens leads to the conclusion that an
elevator was never sent back up to LHO:
CHARLES GIVENS -- "I was getting ready on the elevator, and I say,
'Boy, are you going downstairs?'"
DAVID BELIN -- "What did he say to you?"
GIVENS -- "I say, 'It's near lunch time'. He said, 'No, sir. When you
get downstairs, close the gate to the elevator'. That meant the
elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down and it will
come up by itself."
BELIN -- "What else did he say?"
GIVENS -- "That is all."
BELIN -- "What did you say to that? Did you say you would close the
elevator gate, or not say anything?"
GIVENS -- "I said, 'Okay', and got on the elevator."
BELIN -- "Do you know whether or not when you got down to the first
floor, the west elevator was there?"
GIVENS -- "No, sir, it wasn't; because I looked over there to close
the gate and it wasn't there."
BELIN -- "It wasn't there when you got down to the first floor?"
GIVENS -- "No, sir; it wasn't."
BELIN -- "Do you know where it was?"
GIVENS -- "No, sir; I don't."
~~~~~~~~~
What is interesting about Givens' testimony shown above (in a
"confusing" fashion) is that Givens says all of the above occurred
only AFTER Givens went back up to the sixth floor to retrieve his
jacket and cigarettes (which he had forgotten on his first trip
downstairs on the elevators with the other employees).
So, either Oswald TWICE asked Givens to send an elevator back up to
him -- or Givens is mistaken about exactly when Oswald made his
elevator request.
But, either way, it would seem that Oswald never did get that elevator
sent back up to him....an elevator that Oswald probably wanted to
freeze on his sixth floor so that he'd have a quick escape route off
of the Death Floor just after shooting at the President.
But, instead, Lee was forced to take the stairs at the very back of
the building....because he obviously wasn't going to just wait around
for an elevator to arrive on his floor just after he had fired a
series of bullets at the President of the United States from that very
same sixth floor.
But I always had the impression that an elevator WAS sent back up to
Oswald. (Perhaps this impression is merely an "impression", similar to
many of the "CT myths" that have been foisted upon us over the years
since '63.) ;)
Interestingly, however, the excellent 1964 David L. Wolper-produced
documentary film on the JFK assassination ("FOUR DAYS IN NOVEMBER")
implies that an elevator was sent back up to Oswald on the sixth
floor.**
** = I think the exact verbiage in the movie (via actor Richard
Basehart's narration) is .... "Oswald arranges for a fellow worker to
send the elevator back up".
Although that verbiage doesn't really verify that an elevator WAS, in
fact, sent back up. The words in the film, to be perfectly technical,
merely indicate that Oswald took measures to "arrange" for a fellow
worker to send an elevator back up to him. Whether that "arrangement"
materialized or not, the film stops short of saying.
I put a lot of trust in a Wolper documentary for accuracy. YMMV on
that, but I love Wolper programs....another great one from that same
year as "Four Days" is Wolper's haunting and poignant documentary on
Marilyn Monroe ("THE LEGEND OF MARILYN MONROE").
In Wolper's "Four Days", which I've watched countless times and have
yet to tire of it, I think I have found only one factual error....and
it was a minor one.
I'd recommend those two David Wolper films highly. Excellent music
scores accompany each of those motion pictures as well. .....
=================================================
"FOUR DAYS IN NOVEMBER" (1964):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.video/msg/5093634b419405d5
"THE LEGEND OF MARILYN MONROE" (1964):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html/ref=cm_rdp_dp/002-2065385-6525668?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00005RDRQ&authorID=A1FDW1SPYKB354&store=yourstore&reviewID=R3T7KHKEKLUNN5&displayType=ReviewDetail
=================================================
ADDITIONAL SOURCE MATERIAL RE. THIS POST/ESSAY (LINKS TO WARREN
COMMISSION WITNESS TESTIMONY AND RELATED EXHIBITS):
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/givens1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley2.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arce.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0114a.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0119b.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0120a.htm
=================================================
Walt
Perhaps there were no TSBD "EMPLOYEES" on the sixth floor, but there
damned sure was a 30 to 35 year old, 165 to 175 pound man who was
dressed in a dingy white khaki shirt, and trousers that were a shade
lighter than his shirt. Howard Brennan and several other witnesses
saw him there at the windows. Whether he was an employee is an open
question.
Oswald on the other hand weighed 140 pounds, was just 24 years old,
and was dressed in a dark colored reddish brown shirt and dark gray
cotton twill trousers. He was seen in the lunchroom dressed in his
brown shirt and dark gray trousers about 90 seconds after the shots
were fired. Nobody saw him on the sixth floor at the time of the
shooting. It's highly doubful that he would have been up there with
the guy that was firing a rifle from the wide open window at the WEST
end of the sixth floor.
Howard Brennan said he only saw the white clothing clad gunman on the
sixth floor at the time of the shooting.
Walt
> http://www.amazon.com/Four-Days-In-November/dp/6301969308/ref=sr_1_1/...
>
> "THE LEGEND OF MARILYN MONROE" (1964):http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
>
> =================================================
>
> ADDITIONAL SOURCE MATERIAL RE. THIS POST/ESSAY (LINKS TO WARREN
> COMMISSION WITNESS TESTIMONY AND RELATED EXHIBITS):
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/givens1.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley2.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arce.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
> ...
>
> read more »
Walt
> On 26 Mar, 05:33, "David Von Pein" <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > SOME MISC. 11/22/63 THOUGHTS ABOUT LEE HARVEY OSWALD AND HIS BOOK
> > DEPOSITORY CO-WORKERS (AND SOME ELEVATOR TALK; PLUS A LITTLE "M.M." AT
> > THE END TOO)........
There may be a clue to who was using the elevators in Jack Dougherty's
Testimony
Mr. Ball.
Did you see him ( Oswald )again that morning?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes; just one more time.
Mr. Ball.
Where was that?
Mr. Dougherty.
That was on the sixth floor.
Mr. Ball.
On the sixth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
About what time of day?
Mr. Dougherty.
It was about 11 o'clock-that was the last time I saw him.
Mr. Ball.
What was he doing up there?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some stock---as far as I
could tell.
Mr. Ball.
What were you doing there?
Mr. Dougherty.
I was getting some stock also.
Mr. Ball.
. And were there some other workmen up there at the time?
Mr. Dougherty.
Not that I know of.
Mr. Ball.
Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, Bill
Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that morning---
laying floor on the sixth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Oh, yes; they were laying floor---yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
And were they there at the time you were there?
Mr. Dougherty.
Oh, yes, sir; they were there---yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Is that the same time you saw Oswald?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir; just about that time.
Mr. Ball.
And how long were you on the sixth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, just long enough to get some stock.
Mr. Ball.
Where did you go then?
Mr. Dougherty.
I went to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, I went to the fifth floor to get some stock also on the fifth
floor.
Mr. Ball.
Then what did you do?
Mr. Dougherty.
Then, just about that time---I thought I heard---
Mr. Ball.
Wait a minute---did you go to lunch?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, I went back downstairs to eat lunch---yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
What time?
Mr. Dougherty.
Oh, it was 12 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. When you talked to the FBI men, I've got a statement here
dated the 19th of December 1963, a statement from Special Agent
William O. Johnson, and he reports that you told him that you saw Lee
Harvey Oswald at approximately 8 a.m. when he, Oswald, arrived.
Mr. Dougherty.
That's right.
Mr. Ball.
That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the sixth
floor?.
Mr. Dougherty.
That's right.
Mr. Ball.
But you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
Is that the truth?
Mr. Dougherty.
That's right.
Mr. Ball.
And it also says, this report from Mr. Johnson, states that you told
him that just prior to 12 noon you and five other men were working on
the sixth
floor. Were you?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes; we were working on the sixth floor.
Mr. Ball.
What were you doing?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, I was getting some stock off of the sixth floor.
Mr. Ball.
You weren't helping the men lay floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
No, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Did you go down to lunch?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
To what floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
The first floor.
Mr. Ball.
How did you get down there?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well---used the elevator.
Mr. Ball.
Did you go down alone or with someone?
Mr. Dougherty.
I went down alone.
Mr. Ball.
Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. Dougherty.
In the domino room.
Mr. Ball.
Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr. Dougherty.
Oh, at 12:30.
Mr. Ball.
Did you know that the President was going to pass in a motorcade that
noon?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, they said something about it.
Mr. Ball.
Did you intend to go out and watch him?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched
him but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I
could get out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you take a look at it---did you go out and take a look
at it, or didn't you?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well---no, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Now, you were on the first floor in the domino room when you
finished your lunch, didn't you?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you stay there any length of time after you finished
your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir---just a short length of time.
Mr. Ball.
Then what did you do?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. Ball.
And where did you go to work?
Mr. Dougherty.
Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. Ball.
Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
About what time?
Mr. Dougherty.
At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.
Mr. Ball.
Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes---I heard one---it sounded like a backfire.
Mr. Ball.
Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr. Dougherty.
I was on the fifth floor.
Mr. Ball.
You were on the fifth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor
or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to
go down to eat lunch.
Mr. Ball.
Yes; and then what happened?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---
Mr. Ball.
Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your
lunch?
Mr. Dougherty.
Before---before I ate my lunch.
Mr. Ball.
You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr. Dougherty.
Let's see---yes, I believe I did.
Mr. Ball.
Well, now, you remember having your lunch, do you?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember after you had your lunch, you went back to
work that day?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
When you talked on the day this accident happened, on the 22d of
November 1963, in a statement made to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation and, Mr. Dougherty, you told them you went down to the
first floor to eat your lunch?
Mr. Dougherty.
That's right.
Mr. Ball.
And that you went back to work?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson,
that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you
arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get
some stock?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. Ball.
And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?
Mr. Dougherty.
That's right---it sounded like a car backfiring.
Mr. Ball.
. And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise?
Mr. Dougherty.
No; that was the only one I heard.
Mr. Ball.
You only heard one?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
And where did it sound like it came from?
Mr. Dougherty.
It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere.
Mr. Ball.
>From overhead?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
How did you get to the fifth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Elevator.
Mr. Ball.
You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
Which elevator did you take?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you see, there's one on this side and one on this
side the one on this side is the one I took.
Mr. Ball.
Well, now, "The one on this side and the one on this side," doesn't
mean much when it's written down.
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, I know it.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west
side elevator?
Mr. Dougherty.
East side.
Mr. Ball.
Is it the one that you punch a button on?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Or the one that you use a control on?
Mr. Dougherty.
It's the one you push a button on.
Mr. Ball.
The one you push a button on?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
I believe that is the west side, isn't it?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, I believe it is.
Mr. Ball.
Now, that's the one you took up?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
Where did you take that---to what floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
I took it up to the sixth floor.
Mr. Ball.
Then what did you do?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, when I got through getting stock off of the sixth floor, I came
back down to the fifth floor.
Mr. Ball.
What did you do on the fifth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, I got some stock.
Mr. Ball.
Then what happened then?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise---it
sounded like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first
floor, and I asked Eddie Piper, I said, "Piper, what was that?" I
says, "Has the President been shot?'. He said, "Yes."
Mr. BALL. You didn't say--did you say, 'Has the President been
shot?"---you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor
and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud
noise.
Mr. Dougherty.
I asked him that too.
Mr. Ball.
And Piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you that
somebody had Just shot the President; is that right?
Mr. Dougherty.
That's right.
Mr. BALL. Who mentioned the fact that the President had been shot
first--- you or Eddie Piper?
Mr. Dougherty.
Eddie Piper.
Mr. Ball.
Did you say anything to Piper about the President being shot?
Mr. Dougherty.
No, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you talked to Eddie Piper, did you know that the
President had been shot?
Mr. Dougherty.
No, sir; I didn't know that at the time.
Mr. Ball.
When is the first time you heard that the President had been shot?
Mr. Dougherty.
When Eddie told me that.
Mr. Ball.
Eddie told you that?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. BALL. You told Mr. Johnson of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
that when you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise and it
appeared to have come from within the building, but you couldn't tell
where you told him that on the 19th; did you tell him that?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the day that this happened, on the 22d of November, you
told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderson that you heard "a loud
explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor
above me."
Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from
the next floor above you, or didn't you?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well; I believe I told them it sounded like a car backfiring.
Mr. Ball.
Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor above
you, or didn't you tell them that?
Mr. Dougherty.
No.
Mr. Ball.
You did not tell them that?
Mr. Dougherty.
No.
Mr. Ball.
Did it sound like it came from the floor above you?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, at the time it did---yes.
Mr. BALL. Tell me this---when you heard that explosion or whatever it
was--- that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor-tell me
exactly where you were ?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator---the
west side of the elevator.
Mr. Ball.
That's the elevator that uses the push button; is that right?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
And what were you doing?
Mr. Dougherty.
I was getting some stock.
Mr. Ball.
And what did you do then?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, I came on back downstairs.
Mr. Ball.
How did you come downstairs?
Mr. Dougherty.
I used that push button elevator on the west side.
Mr. Ball.
Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. Dougherty.
I didn't hear anybody yell.
Mr. BALL. Or, did you see Mr. Truly?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, when the FBI men---I imagine it was who it was---
he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and
I told him, "Mr. Truly." He told me to go find him. Well, I didn't
know where he was so I started from the first floor and Just started
looking for him, and .by the time I got to the sixth floor, they had
found a gum and shells.
Mr. BALL. When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found
the shotgun and shells?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; and I found out later he was on the fourth
floor, which I didn't find.
Mr. Ball.
Did you ever see a gun around there?
Mr. Dougherty.
No, sir; I sure didn't.
Mr. Ball.
Did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place?
Mr. Dougherty.
No, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Did you see any strangers in the building that day?
Mr. Dougherty.
No, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. Ball.
Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw
him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. Ball.
When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, it was--the day after it happened.
Mr. Ball.
Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, I'm positive.
Mr. Ball.
Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir; I didn't see nobody---there wasn't nobody on
the fifth floor at all---it was just myself.
Mr. BALL. You told me that just before you heard the shots, you had
been on the sixth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
And then you went down to the fifth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
That's right.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there,
before you went to the fifth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Oh, yes; I did.
Mr. Ball.
Who?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, there was Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady---
Mr. Ball.
That was in the morning, wasn't it?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
That wasn't after lunch, was it?
Mr. Dougherty.
No, sir.
Mr. Ball.
After lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Ball.
Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch?
Mr. Dougherty.
It was before lunch it was before lunch.
Mr. Ball.
You think it was before lunch you heard the shot?
Mr. Dougherty.
I believe it was--yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
And you were alone, were you?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. BALL. That's all I have to ask you, and this will be written up
and if you would like to come down and read it and sign it, you can,
or you can waive your signature.
What do you want to do?
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Walt
JD says there was nobody besides himself and Oswald during this
encounter.
Then Mr Ball has to "prompt" him......
> Mr. Ball.
> Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, Bill
> Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that morning---
> laying floor on the sixth floor?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> Oh, yes; they were laying floor---yes, sir.
> Mr. Ball.
> And were they there at the time you were there?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> Oh, yes, sir; they were there---yes, sir.
> Mr. Ball.
> Is that the same time you saw Oswald?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> Yes, sir; just about that time.
After the prompting, JD agrees that the other TSBD employees were
there also. First JD says they are alone but then changes his
story ....it's a little hard to believe that he would not have
answered that Oswald and five other employees were there at that
time.
If JD was there on the sixth floor just before noon when all of the
TSBD employees knocked off for lunch then he certainly would have
heard Oswald yell to send the elevator back up. JD does not mention
this incident that all of the other employees recalled happening.
> Mr. Ball.
> What were you doing?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> Well, I was getting some stock off of the sixth floor.
> Mr. Ball.
> You weren't helping the men lay floor?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> No, sir.
> Mr. Ball.
> Did you go down to lunch?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> Yes.
> Mr. Ball.
> To what floor?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> The first floor.
> Mr. Ball.
> How did you get down there?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> Well---used the elevator.
> Mr. Ball.
> Did you go down alone or with someone?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> I went down alone.
If JD was on the sixth floor a few minutes before noon and he didn't
go down on the elevator with the others, then He and Oswald would have
been alone on the sixth floor just as he said before Ball "prompted"
him.
> Mr. Ball.
> Where did you eat your lunch?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> In the domino room.
> Mr. Ball.
> Now, what time did you go back to work?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> Oh, at 12:30.
> Mr. Ball.
> Did you know that the President was going to pass in a motorcade that
> noon?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> Well, they said something about it.
> Mr. Ball.
> Did you intend to go out and watch him?
> Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched
> him but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I
> could get out there.
JD was not out front watching the parade......Where was he?
Nonsense....by 12:40 the TSBD was swarming with cops
JD finished his lunch at about 12:20 -12:25 and then went to the sixth
floor.....then he immediately went to the fifth floor and heard the
first shot just as he got to the fifth floor at 12:30
> Mr. Ball.
> And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> That's right---it sounded like a car backfiring.
> Mr. Ball.
> . And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> No; that was the only one I heard.
> Mr. Ball.
> You only heard one?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> Yes.
> Mr. Ball.
> And where did it sound like it came from?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere.
> Mr. Ball.>From overhead?
JD heard ONE explosion.... and it sounded like it was in the building
on an upper floor.
If JD was telling the truth he could not have failed to hear two more
explosions from a floor above. Nor could he have failed to see and
hear Oswald crashing his way to the lunchroom if Oswald had done
that. The rifle was found at a spot on the sixth floor that would
have been nearly directly over JD's head. An eight pound rifle being
thrown on the floor over his head would certainly have caught his
attention.
If JD was telling the truth the elevator would have been on the first
floor when Baker and Truley tried to use the elevator and noticed that
both elevators were on an upper floor.
> Mr. BALL. You didn't say--did you say, 'Has the President been
> shot?"---you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor
> and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud
> noise.
A loud noise....singular
> Mr. Dougherty.
> I asked him that too.
> Mr. Ball.
> And Piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you that
> somebody had Just shot the President; is that right?
> Mr. Dougherty.
> That's right.
preposterous!! Eddie Piper didn't go outside to see JFK pass by...so
how would he have known just seconds after the gunshots that JFK had
been shot?
> Did it sound like it came from the floor above ...
>
> read more »
David Von Pein
That's almost certainly because Dougherty was not among that group of
five TSBD employees who raced the elevators down.
What makes you think Dougherty had to be on the elevators with the
other five employees? He didn't. He said he was on the 6th Floor
around lunchtime only long enough to grab some books and then he went
back down to the first floor.
JD didn't have to be on the elevators with the other 5. Therefore, he
wouldn't have heard Oswald's verbal request for an elevator to be sent
back up.
None of the other 5 employees says Dougherty was one of the people who
were "racing" the 2 elevators down to the 1st Floor. Likely, he was
NOT among that group.
Why in the world is Dougherty's testimony the slightest bit suspicious
(in any fashion) to you, Walt?
Or is it just like "breathing" to you...i.e., putting in the
"conspiracy" where none exists at all??
Walt
> >>> "If JD {Jack Dougherty} was there on the sixth floor just before noon when all of the TSBD employees knocked off for lunch, then he certainly would have heard Oswald yell to send the elevator back up. JD does not mention this incident that all of the other employees recalled happening." <<<
>
> That's almost certainly because Dougherty was not among that group of
> five TSBD employees who raced the elevators down.
>
> What makes you think Dougherty had to be on the elevators with the
> other five employees? He didn't. He said he was on the 6th Floor
> around lunchtime only long enough to grab some books and then he went
Did you see him ( Oswald )again that morning?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes; just one more time.
Mr. Ball.
Where was that?
Mr. Dougherty.
That was on the sixth floor.
Mr. Ball.
On the sixth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes.
Mr. Ball.
About what time of day?
Mr. Dougherty.
It was about 11 o'clock-that was the last time I saw him.
Dougherty must have meant 12:00.... read the rest of his testimony.
Mr. Ball.
What was he doing up there?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some stock---as far as I
could tell.
Mr. Ball.
What were you doing there?
Mr. Dougherty.
I was getting some stock also.
Mr. Ball.
. And were there some other workmen up there at the time?
Mr. Dougherty.
Not that I know of.
At 11:00 there were five or six TSBD employees on the sixth floor.
But they all left for lunch at around 11:55
We know that Oswald was there because he yelled for them to send one
of the elevators back up to the sixth floor.
so If Dougherty was there too then he and Oswald were the only two
there just as he said before Ball "prompted" him.
Mr. Ball.
Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, Bill
Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that
morning---
laying floor on the sixth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Oh, yes; they were laying floor---yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
And were they there at the time you were there?
Mr. Dougherty.
Oh, yes, sir; they were there---yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Is that the same time you saw Oswald?
Mr. Dougherty.
Yes, sir; just about that time.
Mr. Ball.
And how long were you on the sixth floor?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, just long enough to get some stock.
Mr. Ball.
Where did you go then?
Mr. Dougherty.
I went to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, I went to the fifth floor to get some stock also on the fifth
floor.
Mr. Ball.
Then what did you do?
Mr. Dougherty.
Then, just about that time---I thought I heard---
Mr. Ball.
Wait a minute---did you go to lunch?
Mr. Dougherty.
Well, I went back downstairs to eat lunch---yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
What time?
Mr. Dougherty.
Oh, it was 12 o'clock.
>
> JD didn't have to be on the elevators with the other 5. Therefore, he
> wouldn't have heard Oswald's verbal request for an elevator to be sent
> back up.
>
> None of the other 5 employees says Dougherty was one of the people who
> were "racing" the 2 elevators down to the 1st Floor. Likely, he was
> NOT among that group.
>
> Why in the world is Dougherty's testimony the slightest bit suspicious
> (in any fashion) to you, Walt?
>
> Or is it just like "breathing" to you...i.e., putting in the
> "conspiracy" where none exists at all??
That's the problem with you LNer's..... You can't discern when a
person is lying....
Walt
David Von Pein
incident. Why don't any of the other 5 employees say the words "Jack
Dougherty" during their testimony re. the elevator "race" incident?
(Are they all "liars" too? Or covering something up?)
Why you think Jack HAD to be there, is anyone's guess.
>>> "That's the problem with you LNer's....You can't discern when a person is lying." <<<
We can discern kooks when we see them though. You qualify.
BTW, care to tell me what Dougherty's testimony re. this "6th Floor"
incident is supposed to prove or disprove? Or are you merely going off
half-cocked, as usual?
If Dougherty's lying....why? Is Oswald supposedly innocent or
something, due to your interpretation of JD's 11/22 movements?
Explain it to me again....Kook Logic is hard for me to follow
sometimes; this is one of those times; so leave some more bread crumbs
for me.
Walt
> Dougherty probably wasn't on the 6th Floor during the "elevator race"
> incident. Why don't any of the other 5 employees say the words "Jack
> Dougherty" during their testimony re. the elevator "race" incident?
> (Are they all "liars" too? Or covering something up?)
>
> Why you think Jack HAD to be there, is anyone's guess.
He SAID he was there at 12:00.... Duh..
>
> >>> "That's the problem with you LNer's....You can't discern when a person is lying." <<<
>
> We can discern kooks when we see them though. You qualify.
>
> BTW, care to tell me what Dougherty's testimony re. this "6th Floor"
> incident is supposed to prove or disprove? Or are you merely going off
> half-cocked, as usual?
>
> If Dougherty's lying....why? Is Oswald supposedly innocent or
> something, due to your interpretation of JD's 11/22 movements?
I don't know why J.D. was lying.......
I understand that he was scared to death when he appeared before the
W.C. and was one of the few people who had a lawyer with him.
>
> Explain it to me again....Kook Logic is hard for me to follow
> sometimes; this is one of those times; so leave some more bread crumbs
> for me.
Have someone who can comprehend what he reads, read Dougherty's
testimony for you.
Dougherty said he was there on the sixth floor at 12:00 just before
he went to lunch..... Oswald was also there on the sixth floor when
the floor laying crew jumped on the elevators and raced to the
lunchroom. If Dougherty was there as he said and just he and Lee were
alone as he first said before being prompted by Joe Ball, then Oswald
left and went down stairs alone then just JD would have been there
alone on the sixth floor.
We know, by his own admission, that he was there at 12:00 ..... we
don't know what he did there, or what time he left.
Walt
David Von Pein
You must have missed the part where Dougherty specifically states he
went downstairs in the elevator "ALONE". ......
Mr. BALL - That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the
sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - But you didn't see him again after that, is that your
testimony?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Is that the truth?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - And it also says, this report from Mr. Johnson, states that
you told him that just prior to 12 noon you and five other men were
working on the sixth floor. Were you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; we were working on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - What were you doing?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was getting some stock off of the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - You weren't helping the men lay floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you go down to lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - To what floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - The first floor.
Mr. BALL - How did you get down there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well---used the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Did you go down alone or with someone?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went down alone.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Once more........
Mr. DOUGHERTY -- "I WENT DOWN ALONE."
Walt
OK .....So JD wend down alone on an elevator....... When ?? What
time?? Did Oswald leave before or after Dougherty left?
Walt
Walt
> On 27 Mar, 08:01, "David Von Pein" <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > >>> "Dougherty said he was there on the sixth floor at 12:00 just before he went to lunch. Oswald was also there on the sixth floor when the floor-laying crew jumped on the elevators and raced to the lunchroom." <<<
I was mistaken....Oswald was on the fifth floor when the floor laying
crew took the elevators down to lunch at about 11:45..
> Walt- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I was confused about the time the TSBD employees knocked off for
lunch.....Apparently they quit working and broke for lunch at about
11:45 am
They raced the elevators to the first floor. They passed Oswald on the
fifth floor as they were going down to lunch. He yelled for them to
close the gate on the elevator. The WEST elevator was the only
elevator that would operate automatically, and respond to a signal
from another floor IF the gates were closed. The EAST elevator
required a person to be on board the elevator to operate it it was not
an automatic elevator. If a person got off the EAST elevator on any
floor and left it there that east elevator would stay there until
someone got aboard and actually operated it.
Oswald was on the fifth floor when the two elevators passed him loaded
with the floor laying crew from the sixth floor at about 11:45 am.
Charles Givens
returned to the sixth floor a few minutes later to get his cigarettes
out of a jacket pocket and he saw Lee Oswald with his clipboard
apparently still filling orders at about 11:55 am. He asked Lee if he
was going to lunch, and Lee replied yes in a few minutes.... and he
asked Givens who was using the non automatic elevator to be sure the
gate was closed on the automatic (west) elevator when he got to the
first floor.
Where was Dougherty when Given's and Oswald were talking on the sixth
floor? Dougherty claimed that he was on the sixth floor at 12:00,
and he saw Oswald there.... But Givens was there just a few minutes
before noon and talked to Oswald but never saw Dougherty.
It appears that Dougherty was lying about where he was at a given
time.
I wish I could remember where I read that he was very near a nervous
breakdown after the murder of JFK and hired a lawyer to help him
testify before the W.C.
Does anybody have information about Dougherty's mental state after
JFK's murder??
Walt
tomnln
entered the TSBD with "NOTHING in his Hands"
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:1175018496.9...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Todd W. Vaughan
How about his mental state at the time of JFK's murder?
Mr. BALL - How old are you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Forty.
Oddly, forty year old Jack Dougherty still lived with his mother and
father...
Mr. BALL - Have you ever been married?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - And you still live with your father and mother?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Roy Truly had this to say about Dougherty:
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years.
Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State
Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders
for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order
basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent
and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the
time.
I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few
times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong,
and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not
anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not
be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39
years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He
gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had
any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hard working employee. He always has
been.
Mr. BELIN. Would you _consider him of average intelligence?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his
emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of
average intelligence.
I'm not sure what the "Deletion" is, but I do recall hearing at one
time (I don'[t recall the source) that Dougherty was mildly mentally
handicapped. Perhaps this is why he still lived at home.
Walt
How do you arrive at this conclusion?..... Givens said the west
elevator was NOT on the first floor when he got there after leaving
Oswald on the sixth floor. Givens was using the EAST elevator and that
elevator required an operator on board to operate it. The WEST
elevator was the only one that was automatic. It didn't need to be
"SENT" to another floor.
All that was required to summon the elevator to a floor was the
pushing of a button....When the button was pushed a loud bell would
ring if the elevator gate was open ( like a fire alarm bell) which
would notify anybody using the elevator that somebody wanted to use
it. I f the elevator was traveling as soon as the occupant got off and
closed the gate the elevator would automatically go to the floor on
which the button had been pushed.
The point is ..... If the WEST elevator wasn't on the first floor ( so
Givens could close the gate) it was either on another floor or it was
traveling when Givens got to the first floor. If he didn't hear the
bell ring then it must have been traveling.
That bell is what told Truly that the elevators were on an upper floor
with the gates open. As soon as he heard the bell when he pushed the
button he knew the gates were open and that's when he yelled up the
open shaft "Turn loose the elevator"
Walt
> http://www.amazon.com/Four-Days-In-November/dp/6301969308/ref=sr_1_1/...
>
> "THE LEGEND OF MARILYN MONROE" (1964):http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.ht...
>
> =================================================
>
> ADDITIONAL SOURCE MATERIAL RE. THIS POST/ESSAY (LINKS TO WARREN
> COMMISSION WITNESS TESTIMONY AND RELATED EXHIBITS):
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/givens1.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/williams.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/shelley2.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/arce.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/truly1.htm
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
> ...
>
> read more »
Walt
Hey Von Pea Brain.... You'll probably want to retract this statement
DVD on......On Friday, November 22, 1963 (the day of President
Kennedy's
assassination), a group of Texas School Book Depository employees
(who
were working on the sixth floor of that Dallas textbook warehouse
before lunchtime) "raced" the two freight elevators to the first
floor
shortly before noon, with 24-year-old Lee Harvey Oswald being THE
ONLY
EMPLOYEE who decided not to join his co-workers downstairs for lunch.
You now should know that what you posted was not true. Lee Oswald was
NOT the only employee who was not with the rest of the TSBD
employees....
Walt
Walt
Thank you for the info..... I definitely remember reading that
Dougherty was nearly a nervous wreck about having to testify before
the Warren commission.
He was in the Army during WWII so he couldn't have been a mental case.
I can't imagine why he would have been so upset about being questioned
about the assassination....unless.....
Walt
>
>
>
> > Walt- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
David Von Pein
On Nov. 22, 1963. ~wink~
>>> "What time?" <<<
Sometime between 11:00 and 12:00 is all I can determine from
Dougherty's testimony. He obviously doesn't know the precise time. Why
would he EXACTLY?
But Walt The Kook thinks he can pinpoint with ultra-precision what
Dougherty means when he gives these very BROAD timelines...like
"lunch" time or "about 11:00".
Now, Dougherty at one point does seem to be firm in a timeline-based
hunk of testimony when he said "It was 12 o'clock" when he went down
to lunch.....but does Walt want to think that it was ECACTLY 12:00:00
on the nose? Or was Jack probably doing a little estimating there
too...like when he said "about 11:00" earlier in his testimony?
To Walt, JD MUST have meant "12:00:00.00" (Coordinated Universal Time-
verified from Boulder, Colorado).
<chuckle>
>>> "Did Oswald leave before or after Dougherty left?" <<<
Leave?? What are you talking about now? Oswald didn't "leave" (the
building) until 12:33.
Are you talking about Oz "leaving" the 6th Floor just to go to another
floor? If so, why? When when this supposedly verified? Shelley's
testimony of Shelley last seeing Oswald on the FIRST floor "10 or 15
minutes before 12:00", right?
OK...but how does that give Oswald any kind of useful alibi for the
time of JFK's murder (12:30)?
But to "MOUNTAINS OUT OF MOLEHILLS" Walt, Dougherty's (and probably
Shelley's) loose-fitting "timelines" are somehow meaningful to Walter
(and in a "conspiratorial/Oswald must be innocent" sort of
way....naturally).
David Von Pein
ONLY EMPLOYEE who decided not to join his co-workers downstairs for
Lee Oswald was NOT the only employee who was not with the rest of the
TSBD employees." <<<
I don't need to retract anything there....because Dougherty confirmed
that he took the elevator downstairs ALONE....not with other
employees.
Therefore, during the "elevator race" and "Oswald yelled" timeline, my
above comments are perfectly accurate -- i.e., only five employees
(not counting Dougherty who obviously was NOT there) raced the
elevators...with Oswald being the only employee who was up there at
the time to not join the other FIVE.
Also -- Oswald was probably not on the 5th Floor during his "yell
down". It's very likely he was on Floor 6, which is just where Givens
sees him just minutes later when goes to "6" to get his cigarettes and
jacket.
Could Oz have gone from "5" to "6" in that very short timespan? Sure
he could have. But most of his work on 11/22 was confined to "6"
during the whole day, per the TSBD witnesses.
Bonnie Ray even says he wasn't sure whether Oz hollered from 5 or
6.....
Mr. WILLIAMS. "Yes; on the way down I heard Oswald--and I am not sure
whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. But on the way down
Oswald hollered "Guys, how about an elevator?" I don't know whether
those are his exact words."
tomnln
He testified he saw Oswald enter with NOTHING in his hands,
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1175031328....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
Living with parents has NO Effect on eyesight.
Dougherty saw Oswald /Enter with NOTHING in either hand.
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1175031328....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Todd W. Vaughan
> Nobody said Doufgerty had mental problem
Oh really, Tomnln?
C'mon, I thought you knew all about "evidence/testimony", and loved to
"discuss" it?
On 22 November 1963 Dougherty gave a statement to FBI agents Ellington
and Anderton (FBI DL 89-43 Dallas Field Office FBI Files). That
statement can also be found in the 26 Volumes as "Dougherty Exhibit
C".
The following paragraph follows Dougherty's statement:
QUOTE ON
Also present during the interview with JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY was his
father, R. C. DOUGHERTY, who advised his son received a medical
discharge from the U. S. Army and indicated his son had considerable
difficulty in coordinating his mental
facilities with his speech.
QUOTE OFF
Just the fact that his fatehr is present at his interview should tell
you something.
>
> Living with parents has NO Effect on eyesight.
I never said it did.
I indicated that it was odd for a 40 year old man to still be living
with his parents.
Do you think it's odd, or do you too still live with Mommy and Daddy?
>
> Dougherty saw Oswald /Enter with NOTHING in either hand.
That's what he said, but do you allow for the possibility that he
could have missed the package?
William Newman said that after the first shot, JFK stood up in the
car. Do you beleive that too?
>
> "Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaughan2...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:1175031328....@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Todd W. Vaughan
I'd love to see that if you ever come across it again.
>
> He was in the Army during WWII so he couldn't have been a mental case.
He was given an unspecified medical discharge.
On 22 November 1963 Dougherty gave a statement to FBI agents
Ellington
and Anderton (FBI DL 89-43 Dallas Field Office FBI Files). That
statement can also be found in the 26 Volumes as "Dougherty Exhibit
C".
The following paragraph follows Dougherty's statement:
QUOTE ON
Also present during the interview with JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY was his
father, R. C. DOUGHERTY, who advised his son received a medical
discharge from the U. S. Army and indicated his son had considerable
difficulty in coordinating his mental
facilities with his speech.
QUOTE OFF
>
> I can't imagine why he would have been so upset about being questioned
> about the assassination....unless.....
Truly said he had emotional trouble.
Walt
> On Mar 28, 12:12 am, "tomnln" <e...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Nobody said Doufgerty had mental problem
>
> Oh really, Tomnln?
>
> C'mon, I thought you knew all about "evidence/testimony", and loved to
> "discuss" it?
>
> On 22 November 1963 Dougherty gave a statement to FBI agents Ellington
> and Anderton (FBI DL 89-43 Dallas Field Office FBI Files). That
> statement can also be found in the 26 Volumes as "Dougherty Exhibit
> C".
>
> The following paragraph follows Dougherty's statement:
>
QUOTE ON
Also present during the interview with JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY was his
father, R. C. DOUGHERTY, who advised his son received a medical
discharge from the U. S. Army and indicated his son had considerable
difficulty in coordinating his mental
facilities with his speech.
QUOTE OFF
Thanks for posting that.... I knew I'd read somewhere that Jack
Dougherty was a nervous wreck because he had to testify before the
Warren Commission.
Jack's father's statement about his son, seems to be at odds with what
Roy Truly said about Jack Dougherty.
RT said that Dougerty was a good, intelligent, hard working,
employee. He said nothing about Dougherty having trouble putting his
thoughts into words.
Dougherty could well have had trouble communicating his thoughts when
he was under duress, but It's hard for me to imagine why he would have
felt duress about telling what he'd seen and heard that
day........unless??
Unless he had seen something that refuted the official story that
Oswald was the man who shot JFK.
Many others had seen things that contradicted the official story and
they certainly felt intimidated by the FBI agents who told them to
keep their mouths shut. Perhaps Jack Dougherty was another one of
those who received the warning and simply wasn't mentally strong
enough to handle the threat.
Walt
Walt
Hey Von Pea Brain.... I'm not trying to give Oswald a useful
alibi..... I'm looking for facts.
I don't care if Dougherty was on the sixth floor PRECISELY at 12:00
noon ....I'm merely pointing out that there are holes big enough to
drive a Mack truck through in Jack Dougherty's testimony.
It's difficult to determine just who was where at about noon that
day...... But Givens testified that he saw Lee on the sixth floor
apparently still working filling book orders at about 11:55. If
that's true then Given's and Oswald were there on the sixth floor just
a few minutes before noon. Dougherty said he saw Lee Oswald on the
sixth floor just before he went down to eat lunch, at about 12:00. If
that is true then all three TSBD employees had to have been there on
the sixth floor at about noon.
To be honest I don't know what Oswald said about this time period or
if he said anything at all.
I strongly suspect that Jack Dougherty saw something that didn't jibe
with the official story and was scared to death about revealing what
he knew.
Walt
Todd W. Vaughan
Walt
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jack Dougherty said he ate his lunch and then went right back to work.
( This fits with what Roy T said about JD,...that he was always
working) Dougherty said he went to the sixth floor ( He said the time
was 12:40, but the rest of his testimony makes it clear it was before
the shot was fired at 12:30) Worked there for a few minutes filling
orders, and then went to the fifth floor and had just got off the
elevator on 5 when he heard an explosion.
If what JD said is true then there can be no doubt that he was there
on the sixth floor when Howard Brennan, Arnold Roland and others saw
the white clothing clad gunman behind the windows on the sixth floor.
In fact he may have actually talked to that white clothing clad gunman
just minutes before the shooting, because Arnold Rowland said he saw
another man with the white clothing clad gunman at the WEST end window
just before JFK's motorcade arrived. If I recall correctly Arnold
Rowland said that the man who was with the white clothing clad gunman
was dressed in a brown jacket.
Does anybody have any idea how Dougherty was dressed that day? What
did Jack Dougherty look like?
Walt
Bud
That much is apparent from reading his affidavit. He has events all
out of chronology.
tomnln
Proving what a LIAR you are.
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1175101323.8...@r56g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1175097464.7...@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
> Oh really, Tomnln?
>
> C'mon, I thought you knew all about "evidence/testimony", and loved to
> "discuss" it?
Enough to Prove you WRONG on 3 occassions.
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/todd_vaughan.htm
==================================================
> On 22 November 1963 Dougherty gave a statement to FBI agents Ellington
> and Anderton (FBI DL 89-43 Dallas Field Office FBI Files). That
> statement can also be found in the 26 Volumes as "Dougherty Exhibit
> C".
>
> The following paragraph follows Dougherty's statement:
>
> QUOTE ON
>
> Also present during the interview with JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY was his
> father, R. C. DOUGHERTY, who advised his son received a medical
> discharge from the U. S. Army and indicated his son had considerable
> difficulty in coordinating his mental
> facilities with his speech.
>
> QUOTE OFF
=====================================================
> Just the fact that his fatehr is present at his interview should tell
> you something.
fatehr? what's one of them?
=====================================================
>>
>> Living with parents has NO Effect on eyesight.
>
=================================================
> I never said it did.
>
> I indicated that it was odd for a 40 year old man to still be living
> with his parents.
>
> Do you think it's odd, or do you too still live with Mommy and Daddy?
Is this your Denial that many 40 year olds live with their Parents?
Or, don't you get out much?
=======================================================
>> Dougherty saw Oswald /Enter with NOTHING in either hand.
> That's what he said, but do you allow for the possibility that he
> could have missed the package?
Can you PROVE he "missed the package"?
(I didn't think so)
After All YOU MISSED what Lee Bowers said didn't you.
========================================================
> William Newman said that after the first shot, JFK stood up in the
> car. Do you beleive that too?
Are you Often Confused over Apples/Oranges?
=====================================================