Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 60)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From March 2007.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- The re-constructed evidence included a
facsimile of the brown paper bag manufactured by federal police after
they had rendered the original brown paper bag useless.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- The "original bag" (CE142) was certainly not
"rendered useless". And (quite obviously) it was not destroyed or
tossed in the trash....because it was given an official exhibit number
by the Warren Commission, and was photographed as such:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0269a.jpg
CE364, the "second paper bag"....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pages/WH_Vol16_0492b.jpg
....was created by the FBI on December 1st, 1963, for comparison
purposes, not to REPLACE the bag found on the 6th Floor of the Texas
School Book Depository (CE142). The reason for CE364 being created is
fully explained by James Cadigan:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh4/html/WC_Vol4_0051a.htm
Conspiracy Kooks, as per the everlasting norm, skew the evidence once
more, in their year-round attempts to get a double-murderer named Lee
Oswald off the hook.
Surprise!
When we get back to some reality (and common sense) here, we have this
stuff on the evidence table, in a (lone) nutshell:
1.) A Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (CE139), verifiably purchased via mail-
order by Lee Harvey Oswald in March 1963, was found on the sixth floor
of the Texas School Book Depository Building at 1:22 PM on the
afternoon of President John Kennedy's assassination (November 22,
1963). This very rifle was positively linked to two bullets directly
connected with JFK's murder.
2.) Lee Harvey Oswald carried a brown paper bag CONTAINING SOMETHING
BULKY (HEAVY) into the Book Depository Building on the morning the
President was murdered.
3.) A very similar-looking EMPTY paper bag was found beneath the very
same window from where JFK was shot by a person who looked just like
somebody named Lee Harvey Oswald. (And also the very same window where
additional "Oswald Was Here" evidence resided, e.g., bullet shells
from LHO's rifle and multiple prints of Lee Harvey Oswald's on the
boxes WITHIN the "Nest" itself.)
4.) The empty paper bag contained fibers that generally matched the
fibers of the blanket in Ruth Paine's garage (the known storage
location of Oswald's rifle).
5.) Oswald's own fingerprint and palmprint were discovered on the
empty paper bag. (Did the police "manufacture" and "plant" these
prints too, per CTers?)
6.) Given all the known evidence (via witnesses), it's fairly obvious
that Oswald carried no bulky package OUT of the Book Depository when
he left in a hurry just minutes after the biggest event in the history
of Dealey Plaza took place just yards from the Depository's front
stoop.
7.) Given all the known evidence in the case, it can be determined
that Oswald felt the need to LIE about the contents of the bulky
package he hauled into the TSBD on 11/22/63. He lied (twice) to Wesley
Frazier about the supposed "curtain rods" that LHO said were in the
package; and Lee lied to the police when he flatly denied having ever
told Frazier anything about a package containing "curtain rods"....and
LHO lied some more when he told the police that the ONLY package he
took to work on November 22 was a "lunch" bag.*
* = The latter falsehood being verified as an Oswald lie by Wesley
Frazier as well, via these words to the Warren Commission ---
"He {LHO} didn't take his lunch, because I remember right when I got
in the car, I asked him where was his lunch, and he said he was going
to buy his lunch that day." -- Buell Wesley Frazier
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazierb1.htm
8.) No curtain rods were discovered inside the Book Depository after
the assassination (despite CTer claims that rods were discovered). Roy
Truly, the TSBD Superintendent, confirmed that no curtain rods were
found anywhere within the Depository after the assassination ("He is
certain no curtain rods were found in the TSBD building" -- CE2640).
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0465a.htm
9.) Oswald definitely did not take any bulky package into his
roominghouse on Beckley Avenue when he returned there briefly
following JFK's shooting on 11/22/63.
10.) There is absolutely NO evidence to support the "CT" notion that a
SECOND paper bag was manufactured by the police to covertly REPLACE
the bag that was found near the sniper's window by the Dallas police
on 11/22/63. If the conspiracists who continually spout such
allegations have some proof that this type of underhanded activity
took place....then let's have that proof. To date, no such proof
exists.
~~~~~~~~
#1 through #10 above add up to ---- LEE HARVEY OSWALD CARRYING HIS OWN
RIFLE TO WORK ON THE MORNING OF 11/22/63, CONCEALED IN A BROWN PAPER
BAG....A BAG THAT WAS LATER FOUND (EMPTY) BENEATH THE WINDOW FROM
WHERE AN ASSASSIN WAS FIRING A RIFLE AT PRESIDENT KENNEDY.
~~~~~~~~
"So we KNOW, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, we know beyond ALL
doubt that OSWALD'S RIFLE WAS THE MURDER WEAPON!!! ... And it's
obvious that Oswald carried that rifle into the building that day in
that large brown paper bag. It couldn't be more obvious. As far as Mr.
Frazier's testimony about Oswald carrying the bag under his armpit, he
conceded he never paid close attention to just how Oswald was carrying
that bag. He didn't have any reason to." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4a6b3390021d657c
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CTer -- There's every possibility that Oswald helped a shooter sneak
into the building.
DVP -- Typical CTer who belongs to the "Blame Anybody And Everybody
Except Oswald" club.
In other words -- Blame other people for the assassination, even
though all the evidence leads to Lee Harvey Oswald.
A CTer mindset must be: The only person in Dallas who I'm sure DIDN'T
shoot JFK is Lee H. Oswald. Everybody else under the sky is in the
suspect pool, however.
Pathetic.
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CTer -- It is physiologically impossible for him {JFK} to have been
struck at Z224 and be making VISIBLE major muscle arm movements 1/18th
to 2/18ths of a second later.
DVP -- Excuse my Japanese, but....BULLSHIT!
Who's "physiological" rulebook did you get that from anyway? Just
curious to know.
Via the toggling Z-Film clip provided below, let's watch JFK and JBC
react at EXACTLY the same time at Z225-Z226, just as if both mens'
right arms are attached to the same puppeteer's string--which is
absolutely incredible in a NON-SBT scenario. Not to mention the open-
mouthed startled looks that come across BOTH mens' faces at this exact
time as well. .....
http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/225-226%20Full.gif
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CTer -- And there's Jackie, who strikes her looking-at-John pose by
Z205-207.
DVP -- But you failed to mention that Jackie's turn to her right
actually BEGINS at approx. Z169 (well before JFK has been struck by
any bullet), which IMO is much more in line with her responding to
hearing the first (missed) shot at approx. Z160.
Therefore, Mrs. Kennedy is ALREADY turned toward JFK by Z190-Z195,
which is when you (evidently; I presume) think JFK has been hit.
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/film/Zapruderstable.mov
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CTer -- Funny that the old testament of the LN camp was that the SBT
happened behind the sign and only JFK is seen reacting when they come
from behind the sign because Connally had a "delayed" reaction. Then
the lapel flip changed the dogma forever. Now they both react with
lightning-like speed, not only without any "delayed" reaction times,
but faster than even speeding physiology....in the case of JFK.
DVP -- Yeah...that's about the size of the (revised SBT) situation.
Sometimes things don't always work out in perfect apple-pie order
right from the get-go, do they? Funny. ;)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/bb22792c022c5a2e
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0b30398a449c05b7
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CTer -- The bullet that entered his {JFK's} throat was lodged in it.
DVP -- Which therefore means, per your belief re. Kennedy's throat
wound being a wound of entrance (coming from the front of the
limousine, of course), that not just ONE such crazy "stops-on-a-dime-
for-no-apparent-reason" bullet is needed for your theory to be
correct....you require TWO of these weak-sister bullets to go into but
not THROUGH John Kennedy's body (the upper-back and neck shots/
bullets), in order to advance the idea of a frontal throat shot.
Because you can't just ignore the back wound that JFK suffered, which
has to be a separate, non-transiting shot as well, via such a "Frontal
Throat Shot" multi-gunmen conspiracy theory.
Is that scenario very likely? Especially within the context of the
following two things that many CTers think were in place on
11/22/63.....
1.) A "Let's Frame Oswald As A Lone Assassin" plot.
And:
2.) A "We Must Have Kennedy Dead By The Time He Leaves Dealey Plaza"
mindset of any professional plotters/hit men/conspirators who would
have pre-planned the President's assassination prior to 11/22/63.
~~~~~~
As CTers grapple with #1 in conjunction with the idea that ANY frontal
shots were fired at JFK that day in Dallas -- those CTers must surely
be asking themselves this question: Why?
And the idiocy of utilizing any LOW-POWERED, weak-ass ammunition and
guns within the context of #2 above is blatantly obvious (especially
TWO such low-velocity type bullets entering JFK's body from opposite
directions).
The assassins couldn't afford any high-powered weapons, I guess. So
they fired a couple of spitwads at John Kennedy....hoping he would die
of fright perhaps. (Sounds about as plausible as the theory we've got
now from certain CTers.)
Not to mention the ever-present question of: WHERE ARE THE BULLETS?
Where did those two CTer-created NON-TRANSITING bullets go after
entering JFK's back and neck? If neither of the darn things went
THROUGH Kennedy, then why weren't either one of them recovered or
recoverable? Ice bullets maybe?
So many theories....so many conspiracy kooks to support them.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/f4466b08f8be7c36
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/addeb5d529d1fb03
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CTer -- You've accidentally hit on the cause of the delay of his
{Vincent Bugliosi's} book. He can't make up his freakin' mind. Every
month he picks a different {Z-Film} frame for the SBT.
DVP -- After one really good look at an enhanced/digital copy of the
Zapruder Film, there can be no doubt that the victims are reacting at
an identical point in time to being shot, and everyone with one (bad)
eye should know it. ....
http://users.skynet.be/mar/SBT/Images2/222-262%20full-small.gif
Ever see the so-called "enhanced version" of the Z-Film that Bugliosi
and Spence were relying on to get their points across to the jury at
the '86 Mock Trial? It's a muddy, blurry mess. And the zoomed-in
frames were pert-near worthless. Almost nothing could be discerned
clearly.
If that's the type of crappy copies of the film that Vince B. was
relying on ALL the time during his initial research...then it's no
wonder he couldn't discern a definitive "SBT hit" at Z224...which is
where it obviously is located via the better-quality copies of the
film.**
** = Although, to be perfectly honest, I think that Governor
Connally's rapid arm jerks should still have been seen and figured out
in a "HE'S JUST BEEN HIT THERE" manner by VB and the HSCA prior to the
1990s. I can only shrug my shoulders and ask "Why not?" when pondering
that "Why Didn't They See This?" mystery.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b3a8181c73cfa095
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CTer -- The DPD's case was so weak {against Oswald} that it was nearly
non-existent.
ANOTHER LNer -- When the jury accepts that Oz lied to the cops, which
is the conclusion they undoubtedly would come to, they would then ask
themselves why an innocent man felt the need to lie under questioning.
Then they'd vote "guilty". It's a slam dunk.
DVP -- I have only two words to add to the excellent "LNer" comments
above.....
DAMN STRAIGHT!
Well, plus a few more words re. this exact sub-topic from the author
of the JFK Bible ("Reclaiming History"). Let's listen:
"Oswald, from his own lips, he TOLD us he was guilty....he told us he
was guilty....almost the same as if he had said 'I murdered President
Kennedy'....he told us. How did he tell us? Well, the lies he told,
one after another, showed an UNMISTAKABLE consciousness of guilt.
"If Oswald were innocent, why did he find it necessary to deny
purchasing that Carcano rifle from the Klein's store in Chicago? Why
did he even deny owning any rifle at all? Why did he find it necessary
to do that if he's innocent?
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, if Lee Harvey Oswald had nothing to
do with President Kennedy's assassination and was framed....this
otherwise independent and defiant would-be revolutionary, who disliked
taking orders from anyone, turned out to be the most willing and
cooperative frame-ee in the history of mankind!! Because the evidence
of his guilt is so monumental, that he could have just as well gone
around with a large sign on his back declaring in bold letters 'I Just
Murdered President John F. Kennedy'!!!" -- Vince Bugliosi; 1986
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HNmqJO4dFDE
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/ea04b9e6141f0098
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/beb8390c3526124d
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CTer -- Bugliosi was giving the same summation {at the 1986 Mock Trial
of Oswald} he gave in the Manson trial, almost word for word.
DVP -- Vince does have a tendency to use the exact same phrases from
trial to trial and summation to summation, I cannot deny that ---
e.g., "But from their GRAVES, they cry out for justice!!" --- he used
that in 1971 at the end of the Manson Trial and in 1999 for his
"Absolutely 100% Guilty" final summation to a mock O.J. "jury". .....
But...so what? The verbiage still DOES apply in each case. If it
didn't apply, Vince wouldn't be saying it.
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CTer -- Nothing in Oswald's resume tells us he was a madman.
DVP -- Except for that little quirk he had which involved shooting
people with high-powered firearms. But that's not the trait of a
"madman", is it? Nor is it anything to get worked up over....right?
(Geesh.)
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Re. Vincent Bugliosi, Esq. using the same words at different trials:
CTer -- If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?
DVP -- Damn straight. Who needs to "fix" perfection?
Manson = Guilty as sin.
Oswald = Guilty as sin.
~Mark VII~
Any additional silly arguments involving semantics issues you'd like
to raise?
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ANOTHER LNer -- {The "Insane"/"He's Crazy" line of prosecution} worked
{for Bugliosi} against Manson. I don't care for that label myself.
Oswald wasn't insane; he knew the consequences of his actions.
DVP -- Which is why Vincent Bugliosi never ONCE used the word "insane"
in his "prosecution" of LHO at the 1986 TV Docu-Trial. VB was smarter
than that. He knew if he had used that word ("insane"), it would only
harm his case against Oswald. Because it could add the element of
"sympathy for an insane person" into the minds of some of the jurors.
I've always thought Vince came a little TOO close to that very thing
at the Mock LHO Trial -- i.e., coming out and telling the jury that
Oswald WAS "insane" -- but he stopped short of using that word (and
for very good reasons, IMO).
Vince called Oswald "nuts", "bonkers", "crazy", and "mentally
unhinged" -- but he never said that Oz was "insane". At an actual
trial, I think Vince might not have used some of those precise terms,
for fear that the jury might, indeed, equate "crazy" with "legally
insane".
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ku0uAnJKLxE
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CTer -- Spence made no mention of a CIA-employed Oswald. Spence had
nothing to combat Bugliosi's "flag-waving pinko commie" argument with.
That's what lost the case.
DVP -- No. What "lost the case" for Gerry Spence (or any lawyer in his
place) is the evidence....evidence that positively tells the world
that Lee Harvey Oswald was a double-killer.
And it's just silly to think otherwise....or to complicate things
unnecessarily (the way CTers MUST over-complicate this whole case in
order to set Sweet Lee free and engulf him in a shroud of mysterious
and unknown "conspiracy" that never existed).
Because STICKING TO THE EVIDENCE gets Lee Harvey Oswald hanged each
and every time that evidence is re-examined....and everybody knows it.
~~~~~~~~
ANOTHER VINCE BREAK! ..........
"Based on the evidence in this case, Lee Harvey Oswald is as guilty as
sin, and there's NOTHING that Mr. Spence can do about it. ... Because
there's not one tiny grain of evidence....not one microscopic speck of
evidence that ANYONE -- other than Lee Harvey Oswald -- was
responsible for the assassination of John F. Kennedy. ....
"If the FBI and CIA were covering-up -- they'd be the ones who
murdered the President, right? Why doesn't Mr. Spence come right out
and say it? Why doesn't he accuse the CIA and the FBI of murdering the
President? One thing you can say about Mr. Spence, he's not a shy man.
He knows how to exercise his First-Amendment freedom of speech....but
he doesn't SAY it. Because he's very intelligent; very wise.
"I'll tell you why he doesn't say it -- because he KNOWS that if he
said that the FBI murdered the President, or the CIA murdered the
President--it would sound downright SILLY! You'd LAUGH at him!
"Let's take a look at Oswald .... Can anyone fail to see how utterly
and completely crazy this man here was? Utterly and completely nuts.
Bonkers. And you have to be bonkers to commit a Presidential murder;
you gotta be crazy; nuts. One example, among many -- how many
Americans....how many people anywhere in the WORLD....defect to the
Soviet Union? That alone shows how completely and utterly mentally
unhinged this man was. Again, that's the exact type of person to kill
the President.
"As surely as I am standing here, as surely as night follows day, Lee
Harvey Oswald -- acting alone -- was responsible for the murder of
President John F. Kennedy." -- VINCENT T. BUGLIOSI
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SOME ADDITIONAL JFK-RELATED LINKS:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/fd1a7a8f2b90a165
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/9c2238388f0a72c3
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/4d505fe064fccafb
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/869ebe2de53cbb58
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/25220574870d1cbf
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0110a.htm
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jfn...@msn.com
Ask Big Dick Nixon! He knows, baby.
If my brethren knew on November 25th, 1963 what is known now about this fiasco, the United States, as we know it, wouldn't exist.
If Marina could have remembered the year she was born, she may have seemed a little bit less like a co-conspirator. Heck, if she knew who her relatives were, it would have gone a long way to make her appear less involved.
Who put "Lee's" rifle in Ruth's garage and how is it possible none of the folks who emptied the car recalled removing it? It felleth from the heavens, along with the instantaneous endowment of Lee's sharpshooting prowess, I suppose.
Where were Lee's prints found on the rifle M said he didn't have, BTW?
Who donated THE QUICK 25 thousand bucks anonymously to the woman who couldn't speak English, except when she forgot and could and did?
Ah. I know what happened. The stud exuded such overpowering animal/sexual energy, M had no choice but to yield to him in marriage after a month.
David Von Pein
mainframetech
> Kook Alert!
LOL! DVP smelled himself and gave the alarm!
Looking above, that's one helluva effort to drag people kicking and
screaming to your website to make a few more buck on the
advertising...:)
Too bad it's so biased instead of objective.
Chris
jfn...@msn.com
He spoke out on civil rights and the despicable trreatment of blacks in this land of the free and the home of the brave. Why is it Amercans don't know about his adamant denunciation of our land for the brutal treatment of these Americans? How about you Big Dave? And you Vinny? Were you protesting against discrimination and racism when no other whites could be bothered?
How did John Connally lift himself off Nellie's lap higher than the top of the jump seats and look at JFK as they sped off to Parkland? I thought his life-threatening wounds rendered him unconscious during that trip.
jfn...@msn.com
Too bad George Joannides passed away. He had so much inside information about the CIA he was willimg to share with Bob and his Committee. What genius of The Agency to bring him out of retirement to assist them as they requested information. He knew just where to look.
No indeed! No conspiracies around here, right Big Dave, Vinny?
bigger
"I no longer believe that we were able to conduct an appropriate investigation of the [Central Intelligence] Agency and its relationship to Oswald.... We now know that the Agency withheld from the Warren Commission the CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro. Had the commission known of the plots, it would have followed a different path in its investigation. The Agency unilaterally deprived the commission of a chance to obtain the full truth, which will now never be known. Significantly, the Warren Commission's conclusion that the agencies of the government co-operated with it is, in retrospect, not the truth. We also now know that the Agency set up a process that could only have been designed to frustrate the ability of the committee in 1976-79 to obtain any information that might adversely affect the Agency. Many have told me that the culture of the Agency is one of prevarication and dissimulation and that you cannot trust it or its people. Period. End of story. I am now in that camp" Blakey
We've been saying the same things about the CIA forever.