H5N1 more deadly than the 1918 Avian virus: "consequences for humankind could be catastrophic"
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
the Spanish flu (influenza A, subtype H1N1), swept the United States,
Europe and Asia in three convulsive waves. The year was 1918. The
ensuing pandemic claimed up to 100 million victims, most of whom
succumbed to severe respiratory complications associated with rapidly
progressing pneumonia. Many died within days of the first symptoms.
In a new study, Carole Baskin, formerly assistant research professor
at Arizona's Biodesign Institute, currently with Science Foundation
Arizona, and an interdisciplinary team of collaborators, compared the
recent avian strain known in the scientific community as H5N1, with
genetic ressortants of the 1918 virus—source of the most severe
influenza pandemic in recorded history. The results, which appear in
the latest issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of
Science, are sobering. H5N1 was found to replicate profusely within
the first 24 hours, causing severe damage to respiratory tissues while
sending the host's innate immune response into a lethal overdrive,
reminiscent of the trajectory of the original 1918 virus.
The threat of an avian flu pandemic hasn't gone away and emergency
preparedness efforts may be inadequate to deal with the scope of such
a pandemic, were one to occur. "In order to come up with vaccines and
therapies, you have to understand the disease," Baskin stresses.
"That's why I think this type of pathogenesis study is so important."
Although H5N1 is not readily communicable between humans, it has
nevertheless killed over 400 people to date as a result of human-avian
interactions, primarily in Vietnam, Thailand, China, Egypt and
Indonesia, according to the World Health Organization. The mortality
rate for those stricken with highly pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI)
H5N1 is 63 percent. Should a series of modifications allow the virus
to pass from person to person, the consequences for humankind could be
catastrophic.
In the new study, Baskin and colleagues examine the host-pathogen
responses to a common influenza virus and two ressortant strains of
the 1918 H1N1 virus, each containing HA and NA—key surface antigens
closely linked to the 1918 strain's potent virulence. The effects of
these strains on host tissues and gene expression was compared with
those of a 2004 Vietnam isolate of the Highly Pathogenic Avian
Influenza (HPAI) H5N1. In a non-human primate model of the disease,
the avian virus was found to significantly outpace not only run-of-the-
mill influenza but even the highly virulent 1918 ressortants, in terms
of its relentless pathogenicity.
Ressortant viruses occur when different influenza subtypes or strains
simultaneously infect the same host. A shuffling and exchange of
genetic material between two or more such viruses can occur under
these conditions, giving rise to new viral forms which share genetic
characteristics with each parent strain but may also possess novel
attributes, including heightened virulence. (Researchers borrow this
ressortant technique from nature in order to create deactivated viral
strains for use in yearly influenza vaccines.)
The perfect storm
Unlike typical seasonal flu which poses the greatest threat to
juveniles, elderly and those with compromised immunity; the 1918 flu
reserved the worst of its wrath for healthy young adults with robust
immune systems. In the case of the avian H5N1 virus, statistics of
human fatalities reveal a similar trend. In both cases, the highly
pathogenic strains replicate rapidly and induce a massive
transcription of genes associated with the innate immune response, the
body's first line of defense for combating viral challenges.
The group sought to compare the 1918 flu strain with H5N1 through a
systems biology approach, pioneered by Dr. Baskin's mentor, Michael G.
Katze, Ph.D. at the University of Washington. Using this strategy,
respiratory tissue was analyzed with high-throughput technologies of
functional genomics, proteomics and transcriptomics to measure gene
expression and regulation in fine-grained detail. Such techniques have
opened a new window onto the genetic underpinnings of infectious
disease.
A large number of these genes code for cytokines and chemokines—
immunomodulating agents which include interleukins, interferons and
other factors involved with the host's innate inflammatory response to
infection. The result of this overwhelming transcription induction,
shown graphically in figure 1, is a "cytokine storm" often leading to
acute respiratory distress syndrome in the viral host, while proving
entirely ineffective in blunting prodigious replication of the H5N1
virus.
Respiratory tissues sampled on days 1, 2 4 and 7 post-infection were
subjected to pathological, viral and microarray analysis. Although the
1918 ressortant strains were found to be highly virulent, they were
outmatched by H5N1's rapid onset, overwhelming transcription induction
of cytokine and chemokine genes and headlong, sustained viral
replication with wider distribution in the lungs. As Baskin notes,
referring to the group's measurements of Tissue Culture Infectious
Dose or TCID over the course of H5N1's infection, "the take home
message is that for H5N1 there is hardly any viable tissue left to
infect by day 7, yet there is still very strong viral replication."
Further, despite the broad and sustained upregulation of inflammatory
genes, they were of no use in limiting the H5N1 infection.
While the new study found that the 1918 ressortant strains and H5N1
each attacked specialized respiratory cells called pneumocytes, the
1918 chimaraes showed preference for so-called type I pneumocytes,
responsible for air exchange in the lungs. In contrast, H5N1
characteristically infects the more numerous type II pneumocytes, a
critical distinction, as Dr. Baskin explains: "Basically, when you
injure type II pneumocytes as opposed to type I, you impair the
ability of lung tissue to repair itself. In addition, when type II are
infected, they produce chemokines and cytokines, which contribute
directly to the overall inflammatory response." In this way, H5N1
delivers a devastating one-two punch to the host's ability to recover
from the infectious siege. The researchers observed that within 24
hours, H5N1 had caused severe bronchiolar and alveolar lesions in lung
tissue.
H5N1's penchant for infecting type II rather than type I pneumocytes
is due to the receptor preference found in avian viruses as opposed to
human viruses, (including the 1918 ressortants used in the study),
which primarily attack type I cells in the lung.
H5N1's attack on type II pneumocytes was sustained, from the point of
initial infection through the 7 days of the study, as seen in figure
2. Examination of lung tissue showed widespread, prolonged replication
of viruses and associated tissue destruction. "The fact that the
infection of type II pneumocytes was so protracted directly
contributed to the damage we saw," notes Baskin.
Another aspect of lung function debilitated by H5N1 involves the loss
of surfactants, produced by type II pneumocytes and responsible for
pliability of lung tissue. Without such surfactants, breathing becomes
impossible.
The final act
A further critical finding of the study is that H5N1, having swamped
the innate immune response, turns its attention next to the body's
adaptive response, specifically, dendritic cells whose job it is to
phagocytize protein components from the virus and present these to T
cells, either locally or at the lymph nodes that drain the lungs.
Normally, through this process, specific antibodies are then produced
to combat the viral infection. Tissue sampling for the H5N1 found a
notable absence of these dendritic cells, suggesting they were
destroyed during the infection process, which would point to H5N1's
ability not only to disable the present infection but to block the
body's ability to build immunity against later infection by the same
type of virus.
Baskin points out that the new research presented to PNAS has been
several years in the making, supported in part by her career award
from the National Institute of Infectious Disease and by a large
program project grant from the same. "The study was done at Battelle
Biomedical Research Center, which had the required containment level,
ABSL-3ag. These facilities are very rare and in great demand."
Referring to the challenges of such complicated, long distance
collaborations, she insists "you have to have just the right people to
make something like this happen."
Continuing studies of host-pathogen responses at the tissue, cellular
and molecular level may provide the understanding needed to stave off
a viral pandemic, whether from H5N1 or some other emergent strain.
Time is critical. Currently, the anti-viral known as Tamiflu, taken
before or immediately after infection, offers the only known
protection against highly pathogenic avian influenza and the first
Tamiflu-resistant strains have already emerged.
In terms of how many modifications would be required for H5N1 to
become a highly contagious human virus, Baskin expresses concern:
"There have been some estimations and it's not a lot," she notes.
"That's the short and simple answer."
Source:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090210092842.htm
"Human influenza outbreak has the potential of triggering a pandemic
when a new influenza virus appears against which the human population
has no immunity. With the increase in global transport and
communications, as well as urbanization and overcrowded conditions,
epidemics due to the new influenza virus are likely to quickly take
hold around the world leading to enormous numbers of deaths and
illness. Outbreaks of influenza in animals, especially when happening
simultaneously with annual outbreaks in humans, increase the chances
of a pandemic through the merging of animal and human influenza
viruses. During the last few years, the world has faced several
threats with pandemic potential, making the occurrence of the next
pandemic just a matter of time."
Source:
http://www.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/nov2008/475.pdf
"The effect of the influenza epidemic was so severe that the average
life span in the US was depressed by 10 years. The influenza virus had
a profound virulence, with a mortality rate at 2.5% compared to the
previous influenza epidemics, which were less than 0.1%. The death
rate for 15 to 34-year-olds of influenza and pneumonia were 20 times
higher in 1918 than in previous years (Taubenberger). People were
struck with illness on the street and died rapid deaths. One anectode
shared of 1918 was of four women playing bridge together late into the
night. Overnight, three of the women died from influenza (Hoagg).
Others told stories of people on their way to work suddenly developing
the flu and dying within hours (Henig). One physician writes that
patients with seemingly ordinary influenza would rapidly "develop the
most viscous type of pneumonia that has ever been seen" and later when
cyanosis appeared in the patients, "it is simply a struggle for air
until they suffocate," (Grist, 1979). Another physician recalls that
the influenza patients "died struggling to clear their airways of a
blood-tinged froth that sometimes gushed from their nose and
mouth," (Starr, 1976)."
Source:
http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/
What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
catastrophic Pan-Flu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a blessedly wonderful
2009th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus Christ as our Messiah,
the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus
want?" (WDJW):
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve
paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of
promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Jesus is LORD, forever !!!
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
--
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Kevysmom
what if the the toxic chemicals in these vaccine cause havoc on our
immune system and create diseases such as diabetes, ALS,
parkinson's...etc, We will survive that dreaded avian flu that has
killed less then a dozen people globally in ten years!!! Yeah baby!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXDVOG-EHgI&feature=channel_page
On Feb 14, 11:12 pm, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com>
wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/1102bc8f603d9ca2?
>
> God help us before its too late,
GOD is able to help us at any time even when folks think it is "too
late."
> Help man create ANOTHER vaccine!
Vaccines are made from pre-existing viruses. The Pan-Flu virus does
not exist as yet.
Instead, we would be wise to remember that GOD has helped His people
in the past with foreknowledge about what to do **beforehand** in
preparation to be spared (i.e. Passover) from the plague He was
sending.
What we are teaching to prepare folks **beforehand** for the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
Amen.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Andrew <><
--
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
What does Jesus want (WDJW) ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/11194899724b810d?
Kevysmom
> late."
And sometimes he allows suffering to continue, why is that?
The Pan-Flu virus does
> not exist as yet.
Man sure is working hard on making one, isnt he?
> What we are teaching to prepare folks **beforehand** for the
> eventuality of a catastrophic Pan-Flu:
I had read a couple of years ago, that those that lived in the country
who came down with the dreaded Spanish flu, survived because they
didn't have thier immune system weakened by having it drugged. Dont
you agree the best thing we could do is warn people to build up thier
immune system, NOW?
Why is it they use aborted fetal tissue in vaccines? I dont think God
approves of such a thing.
I agree with you that too much food is a bad thing for our bodies, We
should eat less and fast once a week, even just one day a week would
help rid the body of toxins. Natures way of "chelating"!
On Feb 15, 4:17 am, "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com>
wrote:
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote in part:
>
> > GOD is able to help us at any time even when folks think it is "too
> > late."
>
> And sometimes he allows suffering to continue, why is that?
There is joy and no suffering when we are doing what GOD wants **and**
are aware when He is happy with us.
> > The Pan-Flu virus does not exist as yet.
>
> Man sure is working hard on making one, isnt he?
What man does without GOD is only for vanity, completely meaningless
(Ecclesiastes).
> > What we are teaching to prepare folks **beforehand** for the
> > eventuality of a catastrophic Pan-Flu:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
> I had read a couple of years ago, that those that lived in the country
> who came down with the dreaded Spanish flu, survived because they
> didn't have thier immune system weakened by having it drugged.
There were no antiviral medications in 1918.
> Dont you agree the best thing we could do is warn people to build up thier
> immune system, NOW?
We are also teaching people to be hungrier, which is truly healthier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
> Why is it they use aborted fetal tissue in vaccines?
They don't.
> I dont think God approves of such a thing.
There is so much misbehavior happening even among Christians that we
are all in a lot of trouble.
> I agree with you that too much food is a bad thing for our bodies, We
> should eat less and fast once a week, even just one day a week would
> help rid the body of toxins. Natures way of "chelating"!
It remains wiser to simply eat the right amount each day in order to
lose the VAT thereby possibly curing most if not all chronic medical
problems especially type-2 diabetes:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May you and other dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a
Don Kirkman
article
<08a47a56-8247-42aa...@x9g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>:
>Vaccines are made from pre-existing viruses. The Pan-Flu virus does
>not exist as yet.
>Instead, we would be wise to remember that GOD has helped His people
>in the past with foreknowledge about what to do **beforehand** in
>preparation to be spared (i.e. Passover) from the plague He was
>sending.
>What we are teaching to prepare folks **beforehand** for the
>eventuality of a catastrophic Pan-Flu:
So you're as sure of what God (or evolution of the virus) will do as
Moses was? Pretty high stakes you're meddling with there, doc.
Egotistical pride is the essence of sin.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote in part:
>
> >Vaccines are made from pre-existing viruses. The Pan-Flu virus does
> >not exist as yet.
>
> >Instead, we would be wise to remember that GOD has helped His people
> >in the past with foreknowledge about what to do **beforehand** in
> >preparation to be spared (i.e. Passover) from the plague He was
> >sending.
>
> > What we are teaching to prepare folks **beforehand** for the
> > eventuality of a catastrophic Pan-Flu:
> >
>
> So you're as sure of what God (or evolution of the virus) will do as
> Moses was?
It remains my personal choice to continue to receive guidance from the
Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write. There is no such
thing as "evolution of the virus" since nothing happens by chance
(Proverbs 16:33).
> Pretty high stakes you're meddling with there, doc.
Again, nothing happens by chance (Proverbs 16:33).
> Egotistical pride is the essence of sin.
In the Holy Spirit, there is no sin.
Truth is simple.
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May you and other dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a
Don Kirkman
article
>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote in part:
>> So you're as sure of what God (or evolution of the virus) will do as
>> Moses was?
>It remains my personal choice to continue to receive guidance from the
>Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write. There is no such
>thing as "evolution of the virus" since nothing happens by chance
>(Proverbs 16:33).
Then you should quit telling people that soon the virus is going to be
transmissible from birds to humans, because that morphing, when and if
it happens, is evolution.
>> Pretty high stakes you're meddling with there, doc.
>Again, nothing happens by chance (Proverbs 16:33).
Again, the verse you cite means no such thing. Your ignorance of the
Bible and its culture is as abysmal as your medical credibility.
>> Egotistical pride is the essence of sin.
>In the Holy Spirit, there is no sin.
Then you surely are not in the Holy Spirit since your own writing is
full of spite and misanthropy and braggadocio, evidence of a sinful
and unrepentant heart.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
LarF
wrote:
If I believe that Christ is the way, the light, and the truth what
have I to fear? If Christ is in me and I proclaim health and healing
in His Holy name what have I to fear? If I call on the Holy Spirit
that resides in me, who protects me, and has the power to call on
angels who can smite all evil, what have I to fear?
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/1102bc8f603d9ca2?
> >
> > What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
> > catastrophic Pan-Flu:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
> >
> > How to not be fearful:
> >
> > Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
> >
> > http://T3WiJ.com
>
> have I to fear?
When we trust Jesus Christ, we are no longer fearful.
> If Christ is in me and I proclaim health and healing
> in His Holy name what have I to fear?
It is when we are no longer fearful, that we are able to prepare
others just as Noah prepared for the Great Flood and Mose prepared for
the Passover.
> If I call on the Holy Spirit
> that resides in me, who protects me, and has the power to call on
> angels who can smite all evil, what have I to fear?
Your use of the conditionals would be a concern.
Suggested reading:
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier for mind, body, and soul:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <><
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> >
> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4e7e80a2ae57cbba?
> >
> > It remains my personal choice to continue to receive guidance from the
> > Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write. There is no such
> > thing as "evolution of the virus" since nothing happens by chance
> > (Proverbs 16:33).
>
> Then you should quit telling people that soon the virus is going to be
> transmissible from birds to humans, because that morphing, when and if
> it happens, is evolution.
Incorrect for the following three reasons:
(1) Usenet remains a text-based medium, where though much is written
and posted, nothing is told.
(2) H5N1 has already been shown to be transmissible from birds to
humans.
(3) Mutations, which are genetic changes, that give H5N1 the ability
to be **easily** transmissible from human to human have also already
been documented to have occurred. It was only by GOD's infinite mercy
and grace that these new viruses extinguished themselves by killing
their hosts outright. Mutation (genetic change) by itself is not the
evolution described by Charles Darwin, who mandated that for his
evolution the genetic changes must be non-deterministic (i.e.
happening by chance and not by GOD) **and** that there be natural
selection (i.e. selection by chance and not by GOD).
Therefore, as long as chance does not exist because everything the
world would credit to chance, including the casting of lots, happens
by GOD (Proverbs 16:33) there will continue to be no such thing as
evolution.
Truth is simple :-)
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
you to unwittingly demonstrate that without GOD, you are led by the
spirit of error (self) to be always erroneous starting with being
unable to publicly say "Jesus is LORD."
What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
catastrophic Pan-Flu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a blessedly wonderful
Don Kirkman
article
>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4e7e80a2ae57cbba?
>> > It remains my personal choice to continue to receive guidance from the
>> > Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write. There is no such
>> > thing as "evolution of the virus" since nothing happens by chance
>> > (Proverbs 16:33).
>> Then you should quit telling people that soon the virus is going to be
>> transmissible from birds to humans, because that morphing, when and if
>> it happens, is evolution.
>Incorrect for the following three reasons:
>(1) Usenet remains a text-based medium, where though much is written
>and posted, nothing is told.
Doesn't recognize common English usage. Get over it.
>(2) H5N1 has already been shown to be transmissible from birds to
>humans.
True; I misspoke.
>(3) Mutations, which are genetic changes, that give H5N1 the ability
>to be **easily** transmissible from human to human have also already
>been documented to have occurred. It was only by GOD's infinite mercy
>and grace that these new viruses extinguished themselves by killing
>their hosts outright. Mutation (genetic change) by itself is not the
>evolution described by Charles Darwin, who mandated that for his
>evolution the genetic changes must be non-deterministic (i.e.
>happening by chance and not by GOD) **and** that there be natural
>selection (i.e. selection by chance and not by GOD).
Your idea of God is far too small and limited. Many who honor both
science and God believe that he is on a higher plane than scientists
but works through them and the truths they discover--including
evolution.
>Therefore, as long as chance does not exist because everything the
>world would credit to chance, including the casting of lots, happens
>by GOD (Proverbs 16:33) there will continue to be no such thing as
>evolution.
The verse deals *only*with settling disputes by casting lots, just as
we still settle them by drawing straws, throwing jan ken pon, rolling
dice, picking numbers out of a hat. None of those relate to
probability or eternal verities.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Don Kirkman
article
>In a new study, Carole Baskin, formerly assistant research professor
>at Arizona's Biodesign Institute, currently with Science Foundation
>Arizona, and an interdisciplinary team of collaborators, compared the
>recent avian strain known in the scientific community as H5N1, with
>genetic ressortants of the 1918 virus?source of the most severe
>influenza pandemic in recorded history. The results, which appear in
>the latest issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of
>Science, are sobering. H5N1 was found to replicate profusely within
>the first 24 hours, causing severe damage to respiratory tissues while
>sending the host's innate immune response into a lethal overdrive,
>reminiscent of the trajectory of the original 1918 virus.
>The threat of an avian flu pandemic hasn't gone away and emergency
>preparedness efforts may be inadequate to deal with the scope of such
>a pandemic, were one to occur. "In order to come up with vaccines and
>therapies, you have to understand the disease," Baskin stresses.
>"That's why I think this type of pathogenesis study is so important."
>Although H5N1 is not readily communicable between humans, it has
>nevertheless killed over 400 people to date as a result of human-avian
>interactions, primarily in Vietnam, Thailand, China, Egypt and
>Indonesia, according to the World Health Organization. The mortality
>rate for those stricken with highly pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI)
>H5N1 is 63 percent. Should a series of modifications allow the virus
>to pass from person to person, the consequences for humankind could be
>catastrophic.
[Research details omitted]
>In terms of how many modifications would be required for H5N1 to
>become a highly contagious human virus, Baskin expresses concern:
>"There have been some estimations and it's not a lot," she notes.
>"That's the short and simple answer."
Concern is appropriate. This looks like a well done study, and it
underscores the virulence of the strain. It raises the
**possibility** of an eventual mutation that would allow human to
human transfer, but Baskin does not go beyond referring to that
possibility.
>Source:
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090210092842.htm
>"Human influenza outbreak has the potential of triggering a pandemic
>when a new influenza virus appears against which the human population
>has no immunity. With the increase in global transport and
>communications, as well as urbanization and overcrowded conditions,
>epidemics due to the new influenza virus are likely to quickly take
>hold around the world leading to enormous numbers of deaths and
>illness. Outbreaks of influenza in animals, especially when happening
>simultaneously with annual outbreaks in humans, increase the chances
>of a pandemic through the merging of animal and human influenza
>viruses. During the last few years, the world has faced several
>threats with pandemic potential, making the occurrence of the next
>pandemic just a matter of time."
>
>Source:
>
>http://www.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/nov2008/475.pdf
>
>"The effect of the influenza epidemic was so severe that the average
>life span in the US was depressed by 10 years.
The author doesn't cite a source, and the meaning is ambiguous. The
author may be confusing average age at death with average life span.
The 1918 flu caused more deaths among younger persons than most flu
epidemics, probably because so many young men were in military
facilities during the epidemic. Reportedly over 100,000 of the US
casualties were military, roughly equally divided between combat and
non-combat deaths, many of the latter from the flu.
"The average life expectancy at birth increased by 10 years from 1900
to 1930, and increased by another 15 years from 1930 to 1990."
http://www.elderweb.com/home/book/export/html/2843
For all races, both sexes, using statistics from all states with
mandatory death registration laws, life expectancy was:
1900 47.3 years
1905 48.7
1910 50.0
1915 54.5
1920 54.1
1925 59.0
1930 59.7
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/lifexpec.htm
The paper you reference is from 1997, apparently a student report
though the single author is not further identified. None of the links
in the bibliography is still valid. It clearly is not a research
document done by University personnel. All the evidence appears to be
anecdotal, and some sources may be tendentious.
>The influenza virus had
>a profound virulence, with a mortality rate at 2.5% compared to the
>previous influenza epidemics, which were less than 0.1%. The death
>rate for 15 to 34-year-olds of influenza and pneumonia were 20 times
>higher in 1918 than in previous years (Taubenberger). People were
>struck with illness on the street and died rapid deaths. One anectode
>shared of 1918 was of four women playing bridge together late into the
>night. Overnight, three of the women died from influenza (Hoagg).
>Others told stories of people on their way to work suddenly developing
>the flu and dying within hours (Henig). One physician writes that
>patients with seemingly ordinary influenza would rapidly "develop the
>most viscous type of pneumonia that has ever been seen" and later when
>cyanosis appeared in the patients, "it is simply a struggle for air
>until they suffocate," (Grist, 1979). Another physician recalls that
>the influenza patients "died struggling to clear their airways of a
>blood-tinged froth that sometimes gushed from their nose and
>mouth," (Starr, 1976)."
>
It seems incredible that four women suffering from the flu would
gather to play cards, especially in light of all the warnings and
restrictions that are cited.
>Source:
>http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/
>What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
>catastrophic Pan-Flu:
>How to not be fearful:
How much better to stop making people fearful with your constant
warnings of some that may never happen.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
E.P. Uum
<3b94be83-610e-4153...@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote:
> convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > >
> > > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4e7e80a2ae57cbba?
> > >
> > > It remains my personal choice to continue to receive guidance from the
> > > Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write. There is no such
> > > thing as "evolution of the virus" since nothing happens by chance
> > > (Proverbs 16:33).
> >
> > Then you should quit telling people that soon the virus is going to be
> > transmissible from birds to humans, because that morphing, when and if
> > it happens, is evolution.
>
> Incorrect for the following three reasons:
>
> (1) Usenet remains a text-based medium, where though much is written
> and posted, nothing is told.
>
> (2) H5N1 has already been shown to be transmissible from birds to
> humans.
>
> (3) Mutations, which are genetic changes, that give H5N1 the ability
> to be **easily** transmissible from human to human have also already
> been documented to have occurred.
None of which establish your thesis that viruses do not evolve, nor that
adaption of a virus to infect a species new to it is not evolution.
So Chung is again totally wrong.
Don Kirkman
<t29jp49vpbckq5n5n...@4ax.com>:
Making a clarification
>It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
>article
><eb55dca3-13ff-4ea2...@z27g2000prd.googlegroups.com>:
>>"Human influenza outbreak has the potential of triggering a pandemic
>>when a new influenza virus appears against which the human population
>>has no immunity. With the increase in global transport and
>>communications, as well as urbanization and overcrowded conditions,
>>epidemics due to the new influenza virus are likely to quickly take
>>hold around the world leading to enormous numbers of deaths and
>>illness. Outbreaks of influenza in animals, especially when happening
>>simultaneously with annual outbreaks in humans, increase the chances
>>of a pandemic through the merging of animal and human influenza
>>viruses. During the last few years, the world has faced several
>>threats with pandemic potential, making the occurrence of the next
>>pandemic just a matter of time."
>>
>>Source:
>>
>>http://www.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/nov2008/475.pdf
>>
>>"The effect of the influenza epidemic was so severe that the average
>>life span in the US was depressed by 10 years.
>
>The author doesn't cite a source, and the meaning is ambiguous. The
>author may be confusing average age at death with average life span or expected life span.
>The 1918 flu caused more deaths among younger persons than most flu
>epidemics, probably because so many young men were in military
>facilities during the epidemic. Reportedly over 100,000 of the US
>casualties were military, roughly equally divided between combat and
>non-combat deaths, many of the latter from the flu.
Note that the author of the paper did not cite evidence for a drastic
depression of the average US life span due to the flu epidemic.
The last sentence should read "reportedly there were over 100,000 US
military casualties during World War I, roughly equally divided . . .
."
Cary Kittrell
> convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > >
> > > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4e7e80a2ae57cbba?
> > >
> > > It remains my personal choice to continue to receive guidance from the
> > > Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write. There is no such
> > > thing as "evolution of the virus" since nothing happens by chance
> > > (Proverbs 16:33).
> >
> > Then you should quit telling people that soon the virus is going to be
> > transmissible from birds to humans, because that morphing, when and if
> > it happens, is evolution.
>
> Incorrect for the following three reasons:
>
> (1) Usenet remains a text-based medium, where though much is written
> and posted, nothing is told.
...just as nothing is "written" in this digital medium to which messages
are keyed in via keyboard or generated through software.
>
> (2) H5N1 has already been shown to be transmissible from birds to
> humans.
>
> (3) Mutations, which are genetic changes, that give H5N1 the ability
> to be **easily** transmissible from human to human have also already
> been documented to have occurred. It was only by GOD's infinite mercy
> and grace that these new viruses extinguished themselves by killing
> their hosts outright.
Obviously GOD's "mercy" and "grace" fall short of "infinite", otherwise
He would never have caused this host-killing mutation in the first place.
Incidentally, where is your evidence that this strain died
along with its hosts?
> Mutation (genetic change) by itself is not the
> evolution described by Charles Darwin, who mandated that for his
> evolution the genetic changes must be non-deterministic (i.e.
> happening by chance and not by GOD) **and** that there be natural
> selection (i.e. selection by chance and not by GOD).
>
> Therefore, as long as chance does not exist because everything the
> world would credit to chance,
"the world" in this case of course includes the person who set down
Ecclesiastes.
-- cary
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >
>
> None of which establish your thesis that viruses do not evolve, nor that
> adaption of a virus to infect a species new to it is not evolution.
Without random events (i.e. events occurring solely by chance), there
can be no evolution as defined by Charles Darwin.
Truth is simple.
May we, who are Jesus' disciples (either Jew or gentile), continue to
be mindful of WDJW by rebuking you at each GOD-given opportunity as
GOD desires:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/518c33efe51560d7?
MU
> Your idea of God is far too small and limited. Many who honor both
> science and God believe that he is on a higher plane than scientists
> but works through them and the truths they discover--including
> evolution.
You see evolution as a Truth? Which parts?
All of course since "evolution is a truth".
You're full of shit.
--
http://tinyurl.com/5gt7
Don Kirkman
article
>Without random events (i.e. events occurring solely by chance), there
>can be no evolution as defined by Charles Darwin.
But your only basis for believing there are no random events is your
single misinterpreted Bible verse, which refers only to settling
disputes and not to the nature of the universe.
>Truth is simple.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Cary Kittrell
>
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
> article
> <ae5ab04c-931b-410f...@r41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>:
>
> >Without random events (i.e. events occurring solely by chance), there
> >can be no evolution as defined by Charles Darwin.
>
> But your only basis for believing there are no random events is your
> single misinterpreted Bible verse, which refers only to settling
> disputes and not to the nature of the universe.
Well, that and a steely resolve to ignore -- and that failing,
to then rationalize to the point of falsehood, this:
I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not
to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet
bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding,
nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and
chance happeneth to them all.
-- cary
Cary Kittrell
> satan via a sockpuppet (corporeal demon) despairingly posted:
> > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > >
> > > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/016a861cdab3d774?
> >
> > None of which establish your thesis that viruses do not evolve, nor that
> > adaption of a virus to infect a species new to it is not evolution.
>
> Without random events (i.e. events occurring solely by chance), there
> can be no evolution as defined by Charles Darwin.
List a single occurrence of the word "random" in "The Origin
of the Species":
Truth is not your friend.
--cary
Cary Kittrell
> com> <7dc22e69-ff31-4cdd...@d32g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <cm5ip4hbu3npiabed...@4ax.com> <3b94be83-610e-4153...@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>
> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.5.2 (PPC Mac OS X)
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 14:09:53 -0700
> Message-ID: <xyz-BC3231.1...@news.usenetmonster.com>
> Lines: 34
> Organization: Usenet Monster - http://www.usenetmonster.com
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 1781ef30.news.usenetmonster.com
> X-Trace: DXC=oBl>f1[8VcdEa7V;EGPF0n6@[5;i]W>TdV]UnmY7I`FnUSDJn<4lFWgV?2JHGh9o[nBSWdSO9a3;e^YQ7HIL=>DoQUn7HaCOE;dCAb5D<QKB7iXohI5Oohn]m
> X-Complaints-To: killthe...@usenetmonster.com
> Xref: news.arizona.edu sci.med.cardiology:162233 alt.atheism:2134982 alt.christnet.christianlife:530495
>
> In article
> <3b94be83-610e-4153...@e18g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
> "Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote:
>
> > > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It remains my personal choice to continue to receive guidance from the
> > > > Holy Spirit in everything I say, do, and write. There is no such
> > > > thing as "evolution of the virus" since nothing happens by chance
> > > > (Proverbs 16:33).
> > >
> > > Then you should quit telling people that soon the virus is going to be
> > > transmissible from birds to humans, because that morphing, when and if
> > > it happens, is evolution.
> >
> > Incorrect for the following three reasons:
> >
> > (1) Usenet remains a text-based medium, where though much is written
> > and posted, nothing is told.
> >
> > humans.
> >
> > (3) Mutations, which are genetic changes, that give H5N1 the ability
> > to be **easily** transmissible from human to human have also already
> > been documented to have occurred.
>
> adaption of a virus to infect a species new to it is not evolution.
Luis Villarreal has an extremely interesting paper in which he argues
that viruses, far from being bits of codes that have merely fallen off
of prokaryotic and eukaroytic cells, are actually the driving
engines of genetic novelty and thus evolution: genes arise
primarily in viruses and then are are incorporated into cells, not
the other way around.
In this paper he specifically argues that the eukaryotic nucleus
arose, not through prokaryotic endosymbiosis, but instead via
the incorporation of DNA viruses, which introduced the machinery
for eukaryote-style replication of DNA, which is quite different
from the mechanisms of replication found in prokaryotes.
He further suggests that it was viruses -- endogenous retroviruses,
lentivirusus, and others -- which drove the changes which separated
the placental mammals from the monotreme-like ancestors, separated
the various mammalian lineages, and which introduced the few
but critical genetic differences between ourselves and the
chimpanzee:
http://cvr.bio.uci.edu/downloads/03_villa_canvir.pdf
> So Chung is again totally wrong.
-- cary
MU
> Luis Villarreal
Kittrell, you're a waste of a human talent, God help you.
--
http://tinyurl.com/5gt7
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>>
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/016a861cdab3d774?
>> >
>> >can be no evolution as defined by Charles Darwin.
>>
>> But your only basis for believing there are no random events is your
>> single misinterpreted Bible verse, which refers only to settling
>> disputes and not to the nature of the universe.
It seems to be Don's choice to believe that he can limit GOD's power
by downplaying the profound mathematical implications of the knowledge
arising from the Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 that GOD
decides the outcome of every "coin toss" and every "dice roll."
GOD "plays dice" as Einstein refused to believe **and** even tells the
dice how to fall :-)
>Well, that and a steely resolve to ignore -- and that failing,
>to then rationalize to the point of falsehood, this:
>
> I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not
> to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet
> bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding,
> nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and
> chance happeneth to them all.
Indeed, this from a delusioned King Solomon represents his having
strayed far from the truth into the falsehood of his worshipping the
false idols of his many wives:
(1) "...the race is not to the swift..." is false.
(2) "...nor the battle to the strong... " is also false.
(3) "...neither yet the bread to the wise..." is also false.
(4) "...nor yet riches to men of understanding..." is also false.
(5) "...nor yet favour to men of skill..." is also false.
(6) Therefore, "... time and chance happeneth to them all..." is false
to complete the trap of falsehood.
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
you to unwittingly provide another part of the Bible that complements
Proverbs 16:33 in teaching us that there there is no such thing as
chance when even seemingly random events like the casting of lots, the
tossing of coins, and the rolling of dice have outcomes dictated by
GOD.
<><
Cary Kittrell
You heard it here, folks.
Chung so deeply into Must.Not.Be.Wrong that if Scripture contradicts
something he said ... well then, so much the worse for Scripture.
-- cary
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> > you to unwittingly provide another part of the Bible that complements
> > Proverbs 16:33 in teaching us that there there is no such thing as
> > chance when even seemingly random events like the casting of lots, the
> > tossing of coins, and the rolling of dice have outcomes dictated by
> > GOD.
>
Incorrect.
Usenet remains a text-based medium where though many postings can be
read, nothing is heard.
> Chung so deeply into Must.Not.Be.Wrong that if Scripture contradicts
> something he said ... well then, so much the worse for Scripture.
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
you to unwittingly affirm the veracity of what the Holy Spirit has
guided me to type and post here.
<><
Don Kirkman
>convicted neighbor Cary Kittrell wrote:
>>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/016a861cdab3d774?
>>> >Without random events (i.e. events occurring solely by chance), there
>>> >can be no evolution as defined by Charles Darwin.
>>> But your only basis for believing there are no random events is your
>>> single misinterpreted Bible verse, which refers only to settling
>>> disputes and not to the nature of the universe.
>It seems to be Don's choice to believe that he can limit GOD's power
>by downplaying the profound mathematical implications of the knowledge
>arising from the Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 that GOD
>decides the outcome of every "coin toss" and every "dice roll."
Mathematics I understand, but exactly what are the "profound
mathematical implications" of a false reading of a Bible verse? Please
spell them out for us.
Oddly, the terms you quote, coin toss and dice roll, are not even
mentioned in the verse; the concept of the verse predates coins and
dice . And you are the only one who believes in "Spirit-guided
exegesis," since the rest of us know that exegesis refers to the study
of the text and its context, not to some ephemeral sensation arising
from brain waves (the same as are involved in the OOB experience?).
Further, as I've told you before, your idea of God is too limited and
cramped to account for the vastness of creation. If not, you wouldn't
position your religious beliefs as countering nature and its
phenomena, including evolution. Darwin is not God's enemy, nor yours.
>GOD "plays dice" as Einstein refused to believe **and** even tells the
>dice how to fall :-)
Sorry, no dice mentioned, and Einstein was saying the universe is
consistent within itself--and it's up to us to deal with that fact.
>>Well, that and a steely resolve to ignore -- and that failing,
>>to then rationalize to the point of falsehood, this:
>> I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not
>> to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet
>> bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding,
>> nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and
>> chance happeneth to them all.
>
>Indeed, this from a delusioned King Solomon represents his having
>strayed far from the truth into the falsehood of his worshipping the
>false idols of his many wives:
>(1) "...the race is not to the swift..." is false.
>(2) "...nor the battle to the strong... " is also false.
>(3) "...neither yet the bread to the wise..." is also false.
>(4) "...nor yet riches to men of understanding..." is also false.
>(5) "...nor yet favour to men of skill..." is also false.
>(6) Therefore, "... time and chance happeneth to them all..." is false
>to complete the trap of falsehood.
The wise, clearheaded anonymous Preacher of Ecclesiastes reminds his
readers that man should never count on things to go as expected--there
will be exceptions and disappointments and consequences.
So now who's rejecting the clear meaning of the text? Or judging the
writer?
Besides, I know you won't believe this, but it's highly unlikely
Solomon had anything to do with proverbs, which are nuggets of folk
wisdom common to many of the Near Eastern cultures of the time, or
with Ecclesiastes either.
And you obviously aren't familiar with Ecclesiastes, which also says
"Besides being wise, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge,
weighing and studying and arranging proverbs with great care. The
Preacher sought to find pleasing words, and uprightly he wrote words
of truth."
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > convicted neighbor Cary Kittrell wrote:
> >> convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
> >>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
> >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/016a861cdab3d774?
>
> >>> > Without random events (i.e. events occurring solely by chance), there
> >>> > can be no evolution as defined by Charles Darwin.
>
> >>> But your only basis for believing there are no random events is your
> >>> single misinterpreted Bible verse, which refers only to settling
> >>> disputes and not to the nature of the universe.
>
> > It seems to be Don's choice to believe that he can limit GOD's power
> > by downplaying the profound mathematical implications of the knowledge
> > arising from the Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 that GOD
> > decides the outcome of every "coin toss" and every "dice roll."
>
> Mathematics I understand, but exactly what are the "profound
> mathematical implications" of a false reading of a Bible verse?
A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 is not a false reading of
the Bible verse:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4e9ca99694abefee?
Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
you to unwittingly update folks that you are still unable to publicly
say "Jesus is LORD."
<><
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
Don Kirkman
article
>convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>> > It seems to be Don's choice to believe that he can limit GOD's power
>> > by downplaying the profound mathematical implications of the knowledge
>> > arising from the Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 that GOD
>> > decides the outcome of every "coin toss" and every "dice roll."
>> Mathematics I understand, but exactly what are the "profound
>> mathematical implications" of a false reading of a Bible verse?
>A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 is not a false reading of
>the Bible verse:
>http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4e9ca99694abefee?
One of your newsgroup posts is not very strong evidence for the true
meaning of a Bible verse. "Not very strong" as in useless, missing
the context and the meaning of the words as they were used in the
original language and culture.
>Many thanks, much praise, and all the glory to GOD for His compelling
>you to unwittingly update folks that you are still unable to publicly
>say "Jesus is LORD."
>"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
>12:3)
It's about time you retired that raggedy old shibboleth, since it,
too, is based on a false reading of the text and the context. Paul's
only purpose in writing it was to allow his followers to distinguish
between true and false newcomers to the groups of believers--to avoid
Roman spies coming in to harm the Christians.
>What does Jesus want (WDJW) ?
You're the only one who know what that means, since you made it up out
of whole cloth.
--
Don Kirkman
don...@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> > convicted neighbor Don Kirkman wrote:
> >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > It seems to be Don's choice to believe that he can limit GOD's power
> >> > by downplaying the profound mathematical implications of the knowledge
> >> > arising from the Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 that GOD
> >> > decides the outcome of every "coin toss" and every "dice roll."
>
> >> Mathematics I understand, but exactly what are the "profound
> >> mathematical implications" of a false reading of a Bible verse?
>
> >A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 is not a false reading of
> >the Bible verse:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4e9ca99694abefee?
>
> One of your newsgroup posts is not very strong evidence for the true
> meaning of a Bible verse.
It remains informative...
... and GOD's purpose for me here remains to inform and not to
convince.
Instead, GOD has been doing the convincing through you:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/b09fe2cd7fceefc8?
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the
LORD." (Proverbs 16:33)
Amen.
A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/4e9ca99694abefee?
Nothing happens by chance because everything happens only as GOD
allows it (Ecclesiastes 9:11):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?
Sign that GOD can easily unleash an H5N1 Pandemic (Pan-Flu) at any
time:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?
What we are teaching to prepare folks for the eventuality of a
catastrophic Pan-Flu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
May you and other dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
Amen.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/991d4e30704307e7?
Marana tha
Andrew <><
--
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor
12:3)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
What does Jesus want (WDJW) ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/11194899724b810d?
indyc...@gmail.com
> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote in
"the concept of the verse predates coins and
> dice" if you look at the bible chronologically and the old testament especially (which is widely accepted as a historical text by scholars) the book of Jonah was written before the book of psalms and it refers to the sailors casting lots...and metal coins were certainly minted at that time in histry though not widely used by the general public...
Earle Jones
<b61756dc-f90a-40b3...@13g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,
"Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <lov...@thetruth.com> wrote:
[...clipcrap...]
>
> What does Jesus want (WDJW) ?
*
Better question:
WWJD?
Answer:
JWRTFM!
earle
*
Not long ago, this newsgroup (sci.med) had some rational scientific
postings. What happened? Where did these religious nuts come from?
And these ironmonger chelators? What is it with them?
Jeez!
ej
*
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
>Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote:
>
>>
>> What does Jesus want (WDJW) ?
>
>*
>Better question:
>
> WWJD?
Not for the discerning...
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
http://HeartMDPhD.com