Capt. Bartholomew Tipping of Taunton from an armigerous family?

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Jan 29, 2021, 5:27:53 PM1/29/21

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I would suggest this man, known as Captain Tipping of Taunton, Mass., may have some connection to the numerous agnate Bartholomew Tippings shown in this pedigree (from the 1660s Visitation of Berkshire):

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_visitation_of_Berkshire_1664_6_by_El/lAQHAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22bartholomew+tipping%22+barker&pg=PA99&printsec=frontcover

The Massachusetts captain appears to have some descendants (at least a few), as his daughter Lydia was in 1711 identified as "Lidia Burt whose maiden name was Lidia Tipping the only child of Mr Bartholomew Tipping who formerly dwelt in said Taunton (now Deceased)." See this information on Lydia (Tipping) Burt:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tipping-250

Notice that B. Tipping was called "Mr" in the 1711 record. Also, he appears to be the same one who witnessed the 1682/3 estate inventory of the Rev. Samuel Dudley, a son of Governor Thomas Dudley of Massachusetts:

https://books.google.com/books?id=9IhQAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA262&lpg=PA262&dq=%22bartholomew+tipping%22+seal&source=bl&ots=-JhKEK-vHh&sig=ACfU3U3HbuTNQCqoJgij5Fwk7DCvqMNJ5w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjx19qVlsLuAhVIUt8KHXZwBfAQ6AEwBHoECAYQAg#v=onepage&q=%22bartholomew%20tipping%22%20seal&f=false

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Jan 29, 2021, 5:56:09 PM1/29/21

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If there is a descent from the wife of the first Barth. Tipping (Martha Doyley), other ancestral families could include Doyley, Moore, Brocas, Hall, and Tregeon of Cornwall.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158003400172&view=1up&seq=245&q1=tregeon

JBrand

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Jan 30, 2021, 12:56:24 PM1/30/21

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On Friday, January 29, 2021 at 5:56:09 PM UTC-5, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, January 29, 2021 at 5:27:53 PM UTC-5, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I would suggest this man, known as Captain Tipping of Taunton, Mass., may have some connection to the numerous agnate Bartholomew Tippings shown in this pedigree (from the 1660s Visitation of Berkshire):
> >

> > https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_visitation_of_Berkshire_1664_6_by_El/lAQHAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22m the wife of the first Barth. Tipping (Martha Doyley), other ancestral families could include Doyley, Moore, Brocas, Hall, and Tregeon of Cornwall.
>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.31158003400172&view=1up&seq=245&q1=tregeon

Here he is called "Barth. Tipping (the merchant)" in 1688 ...

https://www.google.com/books/edition/History_of_Taunton_Massachusetts/iqsvAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22barth+tipping%22&pg=PA625&printsec=frontcover

JBrand

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Jan 30, 2021, 1:29:45 PM1/30/21

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He was apparently of sufficient status to be one of the twelve members of the provincial Assembly for New Hampshire in the early- or mid-1680s.

"[Edward Gove] had been a citizen of Salisbury first, and then of Hampton (without moving his residence), for more than thirty years; had sat on juries, served in provincial legislatures and commanded soldiers. His actual offence was an armed demonstration, at the head of a few mounted men, against the royal Governor, Edward Cranfield, and the Duke of York, heir to the throne, a Catholic. He had been a warm opponent of the Governor in the provincial Assembly of twelve members, representing the four towns which then alone constituted New Hampshire -- Robert Eliot, Philip Lewis, and John Pickering for Portsmouth; Peter Coffin, Anthony Nutter and Richard Waldron, Jr., for Dover; Anthony Stanyan, Thomas Marston, and Edward Gove for Hampton; and Bartholomew Tipping and Ralph Hall, with one vacancy, for Exeter."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Proceedings_of_the_Massachusetts_Histori/HBIXAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22bartholomew+tipping%22&pg=PA629&printsec=frontcover

So there may be a reference to him in the _Genealogical Dictionary of Maine and New Hampshire_ ...

JBrand

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Jan 30, 2021, 1:36:53 PM1/30/21

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JBrand

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Jan 30, 2021, 1:38:21 PM1/30/21

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https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ancestors_of_Frank_Herbert_Davol_and_His/kklGAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=davol%20tipping

This might be a bit different from other sources ... showing that Bartholomew's daughter Mary, rather than Bartholomew himself, married to a Deane of Taunton.

JBrand

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Jan 30, 2021, 2:22:22 PM1/30/21

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On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 1:38:21 PM UTC-5, JBrand wrote:
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Ancestors_of_Frank_Herbert_Davol_and_His/kklGAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=davol%20tipping
>
> This might be a bit different from other sources ... showing that Bartholomew's daughter Mary, rather than Bartholomew himself, married to a Deane of Taunton.

The New Hampshire Tipping married the widow Joanna (Wadleigh) Thing per Genealogical Dictionary of Maine/ NH:

"Wadleigh, John, planter, Saco, Wells, of unkn origin but by Catholic rec his dau Mary was b at "Bristol near London" Taxed Saco 1636 and appr the Williams est. Vines gr him a lot in Yeapakesset River in 1639. An arbitrator betw John Richards and Francis Knight 1640. Trj 1640, 1645; grj 1645. Evid of Wells 11/2w0/1645 when Vines gr 200 a on sw side of Obumkegg River to him and Edmund Littlefield. Wells selectman 1647, 1648. Took Ind deed in 1649 and in 1650 took poss and made deliv to s Robert as joint purchaser. In 1654 Thomas Wheelwright and Ezekiel Knight wit ag him for swearing; the next yr he was fined for defaming a grj man, a sequel to this case. Comr for Wells 1659. Wife Mary abs from meeting 1654, liv 4/18/1664. His will 7/7/1671 directed bur beside decd wife, names 3 ch, the son exec. Edw Rishworth and Samuel Wheelwirght overseers; inv. 9/20/1671 by James Gooch and James Smyth £453. Ch: Robert, Mary m. Thomas Mills; Joanna m 1st Jonathan Thing m. 2d Bartholomew Tipping. Her fa willed her 1/6 of his cattle."

wjhonson

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Jan 30, 2021, 4:53:28 PM1/30/21

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There is a more full pedigree

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Oxfordshire_The_History_and_Antiquities/vldbAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=robert%20doyley%20of%20merton&pg=PA47&printsec=frontcover&bsq=robert%20doyley%20of%20merton

To give some context to the dating, this family had a few scholars

Bartholomew "son of Thomas and father of Bartholomew"; matric Dec 1577 "aged 14"

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Alumni_Oxonienses/bOQUAAAAQAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Tipping+of+stokenchurch&pg=PA1490&printsec=frontcover

wjhonson

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Jan 30, 2021, 5:05:49 PM1/30/21

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The next Bartholomew second son; matric Jun 1604 "aged 16"

The next Bartholomew Matric May 1635 "aged 17"
I suspect that his will is that one so named 12 Feb 1681

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 3, 2021, 1:30:41 PM2/3/21

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Yes, there were quite a few males named Bartholomew in this family.

If I'm correct, the Cornish Tregeon/ Tregian line connects back to Arundell, Bonville, Grey (? daughter of Queen Elizabeth Wydeville), and ultimately to Edward III.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 3, 2021, 5:50:55 PM2/3/21

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Some entries from St. Michael Cornhill, definitely seem to connect at least to Tipping descendants of Martha Doyley:

https://archive.org/details/parishregisterso07stmi/page/126/mode/2up?q=doyle

p. 127
August 24 [1637] [christened] Anne Tippinge [Tippin], dau. of Doylie Tippinge [Tippin] & Susan his wife

p. 128
Dec. 23 [1638] [christened] Susan Teppen [Susanna Tippin], dau. of Doyle Teppen [Doyley Tippen] & Susan [Susanna] his wife

p. 130
May 17 [1640] [christened] Robart Teppeen [Tippin], son of Doyle Teppen [Doylye Tippin] & Susan [Susanna] his wife

p. 132
Sep. 8 [1642] [christened] Rose Teppen [Tippin], dau. of Dolle Teppen [Doyly Tippin] & Svsan his wife

p. 133
Feb. 2 [1643/4] [christened] Edward Teppen [Tippin], son of Dollee Teppen [Doyly Tippin] & Susan his wife

p. 237
April 23 [1640] [buried] Anne Teppen, dau. of Mr Doeylie Teppen [Doyly Tippin] & Suesan his wife

p. 239
April 4 [1643] [buried] William Garland, son[-in-law] of Mr Dollen Teppen [Doyly Tippen] & Susan his wife

Records at St. Giles Without Cripplegate also apparently match with this family:

St Giles without Cripplegate, London, England
23 April 1641, Bartholomew, son of Doylie Tipping, christened (batch C02243-5) [apparently twin with John, son of Doylie, baptized the same day]

The father Doylie Tipping might be the same one who proved his sister Martha Tipping's will in 1644/45:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x001867117&view=1up&seq=389&q1=doylie

Bartholomew Tipping/Tippin showed up in New England around 1671 and joined a church in Boston in 1674. His wife Joanna is shown as still living in 1703 (see "Tippin" in _Genealogical Dictionary of Maine and New Hampshire_). The _GDMNH_ gives only a very brief entry and seems unaware of Bartholomew's sometime association with Taunton, Mass.

Peter Stewart

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Feb 3, 2021, 5:58:38 PM2/3/21

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Granddaughter of Elizabeth Wydville, who had no Grey daughter - her son
Thomas Grey, 1st marquis of Dorset, married Cecily Bonville and their
daughter married Sir John Arundell.

Peter Stewart

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 3, 2021, 6:46:39 PM2/3/21

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Thanks, I knew I had something a little wrong.

It looks like "Doylley Tippen," linendraper, was one of the principal inhabitants of Cornhill ward in 1640.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101019652807&view=1up&seq=129&q1=doylley

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 3, 2021, 7:10:57 PM2/3/21

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The 1639 will of Robert Bourne, esq., of Bobbingworth, Essex, mentions:

--To Mary, Judith, Thomas, & Wm Garland, children of Roger Garland dec & Susan his wife (now wife of Doyley Tippinge) 50 [pounds] each [at age] ...
--To Katheren, Anne, & Susan Tippinge the 3 das of the sd Doyley Tippinge & Susan his wife 50 [pounds at age]
--... my grandchild Tippinge wife of the sd Doyley Tippinge

..from Crisp's _Sepulchral Memorials of Bobbingworth, Essex_, p. 33.

https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/records/item/791093-sepulchral-memorials-of-bobbingworth-essex-with-genealogical-notes-and-pedigrees?viewer=1&offset=0#page=54&viewer=picture&o=info&n=0&q=

So Susan Tipping was the grandchild of Robert Bourne and the widow of Roger Garland.

John Higgins

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Feb 3, 2021, 7:24:09 PM2/3/21

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There is some possibly useful information on the family of Tregian or Tregeon (“pronounced Trudgian”) in an article on Francis Tregian, the recusant, in vol. 18 (1910), pp. 103ff (especially pp. 108ff) of Journal of the Royal Institution of Cornwall, available here (following vol. 17.):
https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_Royal_Institution_of_Corn/JHFIAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1

Francis Tregian (1548–1608) has a biography in ODNB, in which he is said to be son of John Tregian (1520–1575) and Katharine Arundell (c.1520–c.1580), eldest daughter of Sir John Arundell of Lanherne and his wife, Elizabeth Grey. This agrees with the information in the article above. But that information gives Francis only a sister Jane, m. Thomas Tonkin – no sister Catherine m. Robert Doyley of Meron (d. 1577). Nor does Catherine appear as a daughter of John’s father, another John.

The Vis. Oxon. says that Catherine, daughter of John Tregeon “of Gouldein”, Cornwall m. Robert Doyley. Perhaps this is another (undocumented) branch of the family, but it doesn’t seem to have the royal link via Arundell.

Nathan Murphy

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Feb 3, 2021, 7:40:51 PM2/3/21

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> It looks like "Doylley Tippen," linendraper, was one of the principal inhabitants of Cornhill ward in 1640.
>
> https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101019652807&view=1up&seq=129&q1=doylley

I'd never noticed that principal inhabitants list. Thanks!

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 3, 2021, 7:46:16 PM2/3/21

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I was going by this webpage, but it must need some work:

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Tregian-33

I'm guessing that Robert Bourne of Bobbingworth is the gent. in this Essex visitation who married Catherine daughter of Henry Med(e)ley of Tiltey, Essex:

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Publications_of_the_Harleian_Society/JyjvAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=robert+bowrne+essex+visitation&pg=PA156&printsec=frontcover

This pedigree of Medley, though it doesn't show a daughter Catherine for Henry Medley, shows only one Henry of Tiltey/Tyltey in the whole chart (married a daughter of Sir Clement Throgmorton of Warwickshire [? of royal descent]):

https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_London_Middlesex_Notebook/GxY5AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=george+medley+danet&pg=PA40&printsec=frontcover

Peter Stewart

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Feb 3, 2021, 7:59:44 PM2/3/21

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On 04-Feb-21 11:24 AM, John Higgins wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 3, 2021 at 10:30:41 AM UTC-8, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 30, 2021 at 5:05:49 PM UTC-5, wjhonson wrote:
>>> The next Bartholomew second son; matric Jun 1604 "aged 16"
>>>
>>> The next Bartholomew Matric May 1635 "aged 17"
>>> I suspect that his will is that one so named 12 Feb 1681
>> Yes, there were quite a few males named Bartholomew in this family.
>>
>> If I'm correct, the Cornish Tregeon/ Tregian line connects back to Arundell, Bonville, Grey (? daughter of Queen Elizabeth Wydeville), and ultimately to Edward III.
>
> There is some possibly useful information on the family of Tregian or Tregeon (“pronounced Trudgian”) in an article on Francis Tregian, the recusant, in vol. 18 (1910), pp. 103ff (especially pp. 108ff) of Journal of the Royal Institution of Cornwall, available here (following vol. 17.):
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Journal_of_the_Royal_Institution_of_Corn/JHFIAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1
>
> Francis Tregian (1548–1608) has a biography in ODNB, in which he is said to be son of John Tregian (1520–1575) and Katharine Arundell (c.1520–c.1580), eldest daughter of Sir John Arundell of Lanherne and his wife, Elizabeth Grey. This agrees with the information in the article above. But that information gives Francis only a sister Jane, m. Thomas Tonkin – no sister Catherine m. Robert Doyley of Meron (d. 1577). Nor does Catherine appear as a daughter of John’s father, another John.

Something is clearly amiss here: Sir John Arundell's Grey wife (her name
was most probably Elizabeth, but apparently her epitaph made in London
mistakenly expanded El. as Eleanor as has been discussed here before)
died in 1502/03. He then married secondly Katherine Grenville by whom he
had a daughter Mary born ca 1512. I can't recall seeing any record of a
daughter named Katherine born ca 1520.

Peter Stewart

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 3, 2021, 8:00:50 PM2/3/21

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https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Bourne-1794

John Higgins

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Feb 3, 2021, 9:04:31 PM2/3/21

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This was my careless mistake. I sloppily added Grey to the statement from ODNB which referred to "Sir John Arundell of Lanherne and his wife, Elizabeth" - no surname. In fact, as the article I cited makes clear, Katherine was the daughter of Sir John Arundell and Elizabeth DANET. It was their son Sir John who was married to the Grey daughter - whatever her name may be.

As the name of the Grey daughter, I looked back in the archives, using the less-than-adequate search function of the "new" Google Groups. I found only three instances where this was discussed:

1) your post of 26 July 2000 which concludes that she was Eleanor:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/oNr_ahJtByU/m/C4tKnUacASYJ

2) your post of 24 Aug 2000 which seems to conclude that she was Eleanor:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/DrkQ7cjTESA/m/HIgvxV2nahkJ

3) your post of 28 April 2002 which concludes that she was Eleanor:
https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/9SXl9q5kRLk/m/1NsjVBkBVq8J

I may well be missing something, but I have to ask : Have you changed your mind? :-)

John Higgins

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Feb 3, 2021, 9:15:37 PM2/3/21

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Oh God, I've done it again. Sir John Arundell who married Elizabeth Danet was the SON of Sir John Arundell who married the Grey daughter. The article I cited got it backwards. And thus Katharine who married John Tregion was the granddaughter of the Grey daughter.

I think I need to quit for the day....

Peter Stewart

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Feb 3, 2021, 9:43:53 PM2/3/21

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No, I haven't changed my mind but plainly I need to change my memory - I
recalled the question back-to-fromt, and should have reversed the two
names (i.e. "her name was most probably Eleanor, but apparently her
epitaph made in London mistakenly expanded El. as Elizabeth as has been
discussed here before").

Peter Stewart

Mark Jennings

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Feb 4, 2021, 4:53:38 AM2/4/21

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ODNB does note that Francis Tregian's father John was of "Golden Manor, near Probus, Cornwall", which presumably is the "Gouldein" referenced in the Vis. Oxon. The estate was lost to the family with Francis Tregian's recusancy conviction in 1579.

Vivian & Drake's 1874 edition of the Visitation of Cornwall (p 275) contains some will extracts for the Arundell family which both makes it clear that Katherine Tregian nee Arundell was the daughter of Sir John and Elizabeth nee Danet (d 1564) and implies that she had other children: Elizabeth mentions "god-daughter Elizabeth Tregian" while Jane Arundell (sister of Sir John) mentioned "niece Mary Tregian":

https://archive.org/details/visitationofcoun00sain/page/274/mode/2up?q=tregian

These, together with the Vis. Oxon., seem good evidence for the descent from John Arundell & E. Grey to Martha, the wife of Bartholomew Tipping; the 1632 PCC will of Martha widow of Bartholomew Tipping names "my fift sonne Mr Doyly Tippinge" - so the line seems solid down to the Bartholomew baptised in London in 1641 (and the chronology is unremarkable). The question remains as to whether this is the same man as the New England settler.

JBrand

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Feb 4, 2021, 12:09:03 PM2/4/21

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Thanks for the thoughts about Tregian. I am not invested in that solution at all -- just reporting what I saw that looked basically or barely plausible.

Does anybody know how Susan (___) (Garland) Tipping was a grandchild of Robert Bourne, esq., of Bobbingworth? I am guessing she might be a child of the eldest daughter Mary Bourne, who married in 1606 to William Chapman, a merchant of London (? possibly a grocer); William Chapman died in 1627, leaving a monument at Bobbingworth. Mary Bourne then remarried to John Heath, a wealthy clothworker of London. I have not looked for wills for any of those.

It seems apparent that Susan (? ____) and Roger Garland started having their children around 1628/29 (see records of St. Christopher le Stocks, which includes Mary, Judith, Thomas, and William Garland, children of Roger, baptized up through the mid-1630s).

As far as the possible connection to New England, it does need to be verified or strengthened. I favor the "London Bartholomew" theory, because the various Bartholomews associated with Kintbury, Berkshire, and Chequers, Oxfordshire, can presumably be accounted for. It would be a bit more likely for descendants of a London branch to end up in New England. I suppose one really needs to try to track down all males descended from Bartholomew and Martha (Doily) Tipping's "five sons."

The website below indicates that Jonathan Thing's widow, Joanna (nee Wadleigh), might have been a second wife and not mother of his children:

Name Thing, Jonathan, c1621-1674
Born c1621*
Deceased Apr. 29, 1674
Deceased where Wells, Me.
Places of residence Wells, Me. by 1653.
Exeter, N.H. by 1658/59.
Spouse Possibly his 2nd wife:, Joanne Wadleigh, daughter of John and Mary Wadleigh. She [rest of text missing]
Children possibly with 1st. wife?:
1. Capt. Jonathan Thing, b. c1654, d. Oct. 31, 1694 (shot himself accidently falling off a horse), m. 1. Jul. 26, 1677 to Mary Gilman (1658-1691), daughter of John Gilman and m. 2. Martha Dennison Wiggin, daughter of John Dennison of Ipswich, Mass.
2. Elizabeth Thing, b. Jun. 5, 1664, m. Samuel Dudley (b. by 1668), son of Samuel Dudley and Elizabeth Smith.
3. John Thing, b. and d. 1665, d. Nov. 4, 1665.
4. Samuel Thing, b. Jun. 3, 1667, d. after 1746, m. 1. Jul. 8, 1696 to Abigail Gilman (1674-1728), daughter of John Gilman and Elizabeth Treworgy and m. 2. Elizabeth Gilman Dudley, daughter of Moses Gilman and widow of Biley Dudley.
5. Mary Thing, b. Mar. 6, 1673, m. Stephen Dudley (d. 1734), son of Samuel Dudley and Elizabeth Smith.
Notes * age 46 in 1667.
Relationships Apprenticed to Henry Ambrose of Hampton, N.H. in 1641.

https://athenaeum.pastperfectonline.com/byperson?keyword=Thing%2C+Jonathan%2C+c1621-1674

While JonathanThing was born around 1621, as a second wife Joanna could have been closer in age to the Bartholomew Tipping baptized in 1641. She did make it to the year 1703 at least, at which time someone born around 1621 would be over eighty. Since Jonathan Thing died in 1674, Joanna could have remarried TIpping around the time he joined the Boston church.

Josephine Frost's 1925 volume, _Ancestors of Frank Herbert Davol and His Wife Phebe Downing Willits_ is the source for the statement that Bartholomew Tipping was in New England by 1671 (Boston area), but was immediately sent north to Maine as a military commander against the native Americans. Frost ends with a brief statement about his return to the south (to Taunton, Mass.), where he had a store around 1685 and exchanged goods for iron. She states she is unaware of his death date and marriage, but shows a daughter Mary Tipping, who married Joseph Deane of Taunton, and had a line of descendants down to those commemorated in her title. On p. 63 of the Davol-Willits genealogy, discussing Joseph Deane, she notes "In 1688 Bartholomew Tipping is called his brother-in-law."

Could the Bartholomew who was Deane's brother-in-law in 1688 be a younger Bartholomew, son of the one baptized in 1641 (perhaps by an earlier marriage than Joanna Wadleigh)? If there were two young children (at least), Bartholomew and Mary, of Bartholomew Tipping, b. 1641, and an unknown English wife, born in the late 1660s, before Bartholomew-1641 came to New England, and before his possible remarriage to Widow Joanna Thing, this might explain the brother-in-law status of Bartholomew Tipping [? Jr.] and Joseph Deane in 1688.

Mark Jennings

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Feb 4, 2021, 12:11:59 PM2/4/21

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There are three more descents to Edward III via Susan, the wife of Doyley Tipping.

Doyley Tipping married Susan Garland at St Alphege's, London Wall on 10 December 1635. She was the widow of Roger Garland, citizen and grocer (PCC will, 1633, naming wife Susan and Robert Bourne), whom she had married about 1628. Susan was daughter of William Chapman, citizen and grocer of London (PCC will, 1627, naming daughter Susan) by Mary (1586-1646), the thrice-married daughter of Robert Bourne of Bobbingworth, Essex (PCC will, 1639, naming grandchild Susan, wife successively of Roger Garland and Doyley Tipping); he second husband was the wealthy clothworker John Heath (PCC will, 1641, naming wife Mary) and her third -- married 19 August 1641 at St Mary Abchurch -- was the Searcher of the Port of London, Edward Watkins (Vis. London, 1634); she was buried at St Christopher le Stock on 20 July 1646 as "- Watkins late the wife of - Heath".

Robert Bourne (maternal grandfather of Susan Chapman/Garland/Tipping) married at Chipping Ongar, Essex, 11 December 1582 to Katherine, the daughter of Henry Medley of Tiltey Abbey, Essex (PCC will, 1581, naming daughter Katherine) by his wife Frances Throckmorton; these family relationships can be see in the Visitations of Essex (Bourne) and Warwickshire (Medley, Throckmorton). Frances was the daughter of Sir Clement Throckmorton by his wife Katherine Nevill. This latter couple has three E3 descents:

1. John of Gaunt
2. Joan Beaufort
3. Richard Nevill, 1st Earl of Salisbury
4. Lady Alice Nevill
5. Elizabeth Fitzhugh
6. Miss Vaux (Katherine, per Vis. Warwick)
7. Sir Clement Throckmorton

1. John of Gaunt
2. Joan Beaufort
3. Edward Nevill, Lord Abergavenny
4. George Nevill, Lord Abergavenny
5. Sir Edward Nevill
6. Katherine Nevill

1. Edmund of York
2. Constance of York
3. Isabel le Despencer
4. Elizabeth Beauchamp
5. Sir Edward Nevill
6. Katherine Nevill

There's also a double connection with the Dannett family:

1. Gerard Dannett of Dannett's Hall married Mary Beklknap
2a. Mary Dannett married George Medley
3. Henry Medley married Frances Throckmorton
4. Katherine Medley married Robert Bourne
5. Mary Bourne married William Chapman
6. Susan Chapman married Doyley Tipping

2b. Elizabeth Dannett married Sir John Arundell
3. Katherine Arundell married John Tregian
4. Katherine Tregian married Robert Doyley
5. Martha Doyley married Bartholomew Tipping
6. Doyley Tipping married Susan Chapman - 4th cousins

wjhonson

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Feb 4, 2021, 12:44:25 PM2/4/21

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Mary Bourne and William Chapman married
5 Jan 1606
Bobbingworth, co Essex (Batch I03175-4 wj)

JBrand

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Feb 4, 2021, 1:48:52 PM2/4/21

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>
> 1. Gerard Dannett of Dannett's Hall married Mary Beklknap
> 2a. Mary Dannett married George Medley
> 3. Henry Medley married Frances Throckmorton
> 4. Katherine Medley married Robert Bourne
> 5. Mary Bourne married William Chapman
> 6. Susan Chapman married Doyley Tipping
>
> 2b. Elizabeth Dannett married Sir John Arundell
> 3. Katherine Arundell married John Tregian
> 4. Katherine Tregian married Robert Doyley
> 5. Martha Doyley married Bartholomew Tipping
> 6. Doyley Tipping married Susan Chapman - 4th cousins

Interesting! Does anybody credit the statement that the Dannetts also had a Plantagenet line of descent? "The _Visitation of Shropshire_, under Dannatt of Westhope, gives William Dannatt of Westhope [ca. 1300s ?] as marrying Juliana, natural daughter of Henry, Duke of Lancaster, thus proving that the Dannet family had some connection with Westhope at the time that the property belonged to the Earls of Arundel." (_Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological and Natural History Society_, p. 147 of the vol. for ?1907).

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Transactions/NJQ_AQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=juliana+dannet&pg=PA147&printsec=frontcover

I guess this would be before John of Gaunt's time. I think some of Doug Richardson's books indicated, without giving the exact line, that certain Danets/ Dannetts were descendants of Henry III, maybe on the basis above.

John Higgins

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Feb 4, 2021, 2:08:36 PM2/4/21

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Yes, the Henry III descent for the Danet/Dannett family is well documented, running through Henry III's son Edmund "Crouchback", Earl of Lancaster, and Edmund's grandson Henry, 1st Duke of Lancaster, who had an illegitimate daughter Juliana, mar. William Dannett of Westhope.

Mark Jennings

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Feb 4, 2021, 6:57:39 PM2/4/21

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The male line runs as follows:

Thomas Tipping married Margaret Latton. Issue:
1. Sir George Tipping c1561-1627 married Dorothy Borlase. Issue:
1a. John Tipping, BA c1589-1618 married Anne Piggot. Issue:
2a. Sir Thomas Tipping 1615-1692 - ancestor of the Tipping baronets
2b. George Tipping b c1617
1b. George Tipping b c1594
1c. Samuel Tipping, BA b c1598; of Lincoln's Inn
1d. Revd William Tipping, BA c1599-1649 married Ursula Brett. Issue:
2a. George Tipping c1629
2b. William Tipping c1630
1b. Bartholomew Tipping c1563-1630 married Martha Doyley d 1632. Issue:
2a. Thomas Tipping c1586-1655 of Chaddleworth Berks; married Catherine Samborne d 1629; no surviving issue
2b. Bartholomew Tipping 1588-1657 married Elizabeth[?Barker]. Issue:
3a. Bartholomew Tipping, MA 1617-1680; heir to uncle Thomas; married Catherine Jennys d 1663; no surviving issue
3b. John Tipping d 1679; of Chequers, Oxfordshire; married. Issue:
4a. Bartholomew Tipping, died 1718; heir to his uncle Bartholomew; of Chaddleworth; married Margaret Tubb d 1711. Issue including:
5a. Bartholomew Tipping 1672-1737; married and had issue
4b. Revd John Tipping, MA 1652-1722; married and had issue
2c. Francis Tipping d 1659; of London and Great Hormead, Herts; married Susan Brand. Issue:
3a. Francis Tipping, living in 1658
2d. Revd John Tipping, MA b c1601; of Shabbington, Bucks 1628; had 5 children
2e. Doyley Tipping, born c1605; admitted as a citizen-haberdasher, London, 1627; married Susan Garland nee Chapman
3a. Robert Tipping b c1640
3b. John Tipping b c1641
3c. Bartholomew Tipping b c1641
3d. Edward Tipping b c1644

It isn't possible to conclude that Bartholomew son of Doyley Tipping was the emigrant to North America, since the name was also used by what seems to be another branch of the family - an Elizabeth Tipping of Worminghall, Buckinghamshire, widow, left a 1654 will (PCC, 1655) which names sons John, Bartholomew, William, Edward and Leonard (deceased) as well as daughter Elizabeth Stevens, daughter Frideswide; Eliza, Elizabeth, William, Thomas, Leonard and Ralph, children of son Leonard; John and Richard, sons of son John; Thomas and Barbara, son and daughter of son William. The son Bartholomew was probably the one of that name who married Anne Stevens at Worminghall in 1651. Elizabeth the testatrix was probably the Elizabeth Gybbs married to an earlier Bartholomew Tipping at Worminghall on 30 October 1606. Worminghall manor had been bought by Thomas Tipping [who heads the pedigree above] by 1562, and was succeeded by his son Sir George and then the latter's grandson, Sir Thomas (VCH); Sir George settled the advowson on his 3rd son, Samuel, in 1618. It isn't clear where the Bartholomew who married in 1606 fits into the wider pedigree.

Mark Jennings

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Feb 4, 2021, 7:04:58 PM2/4/21

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Apologies, I muddled the numbering - try again:

(1). Thomas Tipping married Margaret Latton. Issue:
(1)(1). Sir George Tipping c1561-1627 married Dorothy Borlase. Issue:
(1)(1)(1). John Tipping, BA c1589-1618 married Anne Piggot. Issue:
(1)(1)(1)(1). Sir Thomas Tipping 1615-1692 - ancestor of the Tipping baronets
(1)(1)(1)(2). George Tipping b c1617
(1)(1)(2). George Tipping b c1594
(1)(1)(3). Samuel Tipping, BA b c1598; of Lincoln's Inn
(1)(1)(4). Revd William Tipping, BA c1599-1649 married Ursula Brett. Issue:
(1)(1)(4)(1). George Tipping c1629
(1)(1)(4)(2). William Tipping c1630
(1)(2). Bartholomew Tipping c1563-1630 married Martha Doyley d 1632. Issue:
(1)(2)(1). Thomas Tipping c1586-1655 of Chaddleworth Berks; married Catherine Samborne d 1629; no surviving issue
(1)(2)(2). Bartholomew Tipping 1588-1657 married Elizabeth Barker. Issue:
(1)(2)(2)(1). Bartholomew Tipping, MA 1617-1680; heir to uncle Thomas; married Catherine Jennys d 1663; no surviving issue
(1)(2)(2)(2). John Tipping d 1679; of Chequers, Oxfordshire; married. Issue:
(1)(2)(2)(2)(1). Bartholomew Tipping, died 1718; heir to his uncle Bartholomew; of Chaddleworth; married Margaret Tubb d 1711. Issue including:
(1)(2)(2)(2)(1)(1). Bartholomew Tipping 1672-1737; married and had issue
(1)(2)(2)(2)(2). Revd John Tipping, MA 1652-1722; married and had issue
(1)(2)(3). Francis Tipping d 1659; of London and Great Hormead, Herts; married Susan Brand. Issue:
(1)(2)(3)(1). Francis Tipping, living in 1658
(1)(2)(4). Revd John Tipping, MA b c1601; of Shabbington, Bucks 1628; had 5 children
(1)(2)(5). Doyley Tipping, born c1605; admitted as a citizen-haberdasher, London, 1627; married Susan Garland nee Chapman
(1)(2)(5)(1). Robert Tipping b c1640
(1)(2)(5)(2). John Tipping b c1641
(1)(2)(5)(3). Bartholomew Tipping b c1641
(1)(2)(5)(4). Edward Tipping b c1644

Mark Jennings

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Feb 4, 2021, 7:48:19 PM2/4/21

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Feb 5, 2021, 12:30:56 PM2/5/21

1. Edmund of York
2. Constance of York
3. Isabel le Despencer
4. Elizabeth Beauchamp

5. George Nevill, Lord Abergavenny
6. Sir Edward Nevill
7. Katherine Nevill

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 5, 2021, 6:16:13 PM2/5/21

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This source gives a birth year of "prob. about 1632" for Joanna/Joan (Wadleigh) Thing.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=wu.89069618874&view=1up&seq=255&q1=wadleigh

Another source clearly shows she was married to Jonathan Thing by the summer of 1655; the footnote mentions her remarriage to Bartholomew Tipping:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=osu.32435055830616&view=1up&seq=104&q1=wadleigh

The first source, which did not know of her remarriage to Tipping, states she died "after 9 Oct. 1676." This may mean they found a record of that date under her first married name of Thing, placing the Tipping marriage later than Oct. 1676.

The speculated birthdate of 1632 is perhaps based on a guess that she married for the first time at around age 22; she may have been younger than that in actuality.

Nonetheless, if Captain Tipping, her second husband, was the man born in 1641, then she may have been up to nine years older than he. She would have been 71 at the time of the 1703 deed, if indeed born in 1632.

It seems Tipping's marriage to _____ Deane must have been in the early 1670s, before he went north to New Hampshire and Maine.

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Feb 10, 2021, 6:51:31 PM2/10/21

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The following interesting item occurs in the records of the Suffolk, Massachusetts, county court, from the session of 30 July 1678:

TIPPING Ordered to depart

John Tipping Cordwainer being present[e]d for making Sute to some maids or women in order to marriage, hee having a wife in London, hee own[e]d that hee had a wife but denyed his making Sute to any persons as above: [I]s Ordered to depart to his wife by the next oppertunity of Shipping under the penalty express't in ye law. being twenty pounds (_Records of the Suffolk County Court, 1671-1680_, 2 vols. [Boston: Colonial Society of Massachusetts, 1932-33], 2:943).

Remember that Bartholomew Tipping, b. 1641, had a twin brother named John Tipping. This cordwainer, possibly a "Cordwainer of London," certainly had a wife living in London in 1678. Is there a Cordwainer's Company with surviving records from this period (say 1655-1680)?

Bartholomew "Tippen" makes only one appearance in the same records about a year later (2:1060), as the agent of Major Thomas Clarke (something about goods replevied, twenty shillings damage plus costs of court).

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 19, 2021, 4:29:15 PM2/19/21

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As a follow up to this, I remembered a volume of the Oxfordshire Record Society (v. 45/ 1966-7) entitled _Index of Persons in Oxfordshire Deeds Acquired by the Bodleian Library, 1878-1963_, edited by W. O. Hassall.

The volume gives many family and personal names, covering a wide range of years, arranged in two text columns per page. The Tipping entries cover a bit more than one text column (slightly more than half a page).

In a 1630 deed (# 3889) on p. 204, Bartholomew Tipping, husband of Martha, makes "bequests to Doily and Bartholomew Tipping and his own daughter Margaret Smith, Martha Tipping, Ann, Annabel and Elizabeth Warneham and his son Francis."

Compare what Mark said about Bartholomew's will: ""Bartholomew Tipping of Chequers in the county of Oxfordshire, esquire -- to be buried in the chancel at Stokenchurch -- well-beloved wife -- son Doylie Tipping -- daughter Margery Smith -- daughter Martha Tipping -- daughters Anne Annable and Elizabeth [illegible] -- son Francis -- son Bartholomew Tipping to be executor -- sons Thomas Tipping and John Tipping and son-in-law John Annable to be overseers -- 19 August 1630 -- probate granted 12 April 1632 to son Bartholomew -- personal estate: £722 8s"

It appears that W. O. Hassall read "Ann Annabel" as two daughters, Ann and Annabel, rather than a surname Annabel. Also the deed seems to show daughter Elizabeth (Tipping) Castle had a first husband ___ Warneham.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 19, 2021, 4:32:02 PM2/19/21

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Sorry ... "his own DAUGHTERS Margaret Smith, Martha Tipping, Ann, Annabel and Elizabeth Warneham ..."

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 19, 2021, 5:03:24 PM2/19/21

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I suggest the surname Warneham is the same as Wirdnam in what follows:

Ellen Wirdnam widow _might_ have been the "first" mother-in-law of Elizabeth (Tipping) (Warneham/? [Wirdnam]) Castle, who in 1648 was wife of Lawrence Castle.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Feb 19, 2021, 5:37:05 PM2/19/21

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"George Wyrdnam, Esq., of Priors' Hold, in 1623, married Elizabeth, daughter of Bartholomew Tipping, Esq. of Oxfordshire, and had three daughters, coheirs, Martha; Catherine; and Dorothy."

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Parochial_Topography_of_the_Hundred_of_W/E9VUAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=ellen+wyrdnam&pg=PA186&printsec=frontcover

wjhonson

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Feb 21, 2021, 12:29:06 PM2/21/21

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Ann Annabel is a single person. Ann Tipping m John Annable of Nettlebed Oxon Gent

Johnny Brananas

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Mar 30, 2022, 4:52:10 PM3/30/22

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Mark noted the following:

"There's also a double connection with the Dannett family:

1. Gerard Dannett of Dannett's Hall married Mary Belknap
2a. Mary Dannett married George Medley
3. Henry Medley married Frances Throckmorton
4. Katherine Medley married Robert Bourne
5. Mary Bourne married William Chapman
6. Susan Chapman married Doyley Tipping

2b. Elizabeth Dannett married Sir John Arundell
3. Katherine Arundell married John Tregian
4. Katherine Tregian married Robert Doyley
5. Martha Doyley married Bartholomew Tipping
6. Doyley Tipping married Susan Chapman - 4th cousins"

_________

There is a pertinent marriage licence printed in D. S. Chambers, _Faculty Office Registers, 1534-1549_ (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1966), p. 5.

[1534, June 28] Geo. Medley & Mary Damet [sic]. Disp. for marriage (2nd & 3rd degrees consang., and the Countess of Dorset, Geo.'s mother, was Mary's godmother). L8; 30s.

Was this "Countess" of Dorset, Margaret Wotton, daughter of Sir Robert Wotton (by Anne Belknap), who married Thomas Grey, Marquess of Dorset? If so, it looks like the consanguinity issue related to the Belknapp family.

Chris Dickinson

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Apr 13, 2022, 11:24:56 AM4/13/22

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On Friday, 29 January 2021 at 22:27:53 UTC, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

>
> Notice that B. Tipping was called "Mr" in the 1711 record. Also, he appears to be the same one who witnessed the 1682/3 estate inventory of the Rev. Samuel Dudley, a son of Governor Thomas Dudley of Massachusetts:

You probably can't infer anything useful from the use of the term 'Mr' in 1711. By that time, the term was being used for anyone who had status, especially in towns. It doesn't imply anything at all about the social status of the man's father or grandfather or other relatives.

The term 'Esq.' remains a useful social pointer at this time, losing that value in the nineteenth century.

Chris