Arundell, Grey & Grenville
Stewart, Peter
of Sir John Arundell of Lanherne (d 1545), which I hope someone else may be
able to solve.
In a post of 27 July, responding to one from CE Wood, I wrote that Sir
John's first wife was named Eleanor, a daughter of Thomas Grey, 1st marquess
of Dorset, adding: "I'm told that a contemporary memorial brass in the
Arundell chapel at St Columb confirms the wife's name as Eleanor, but I
haven't seen this". Now I discover that my informant was incorrect on two
counts - the brass inscription was not quite contemporary, and actually
reads: "Elizabeth Grey, daughter to the Lorde Marques Dorset".
However, I believe this is wrong and her name was more probably Eleanor
after all. This seems to be part of a wider confusion over the names of
various Arundell wives in the early sixteenth century, in both the Arundell
and Trerice branches of that family.
The same inscription goes on to commemorate Sir John's second wife as:
"Kathryn, ye daughter of Sir Thomas Gre"[nville of Stowe in Kilkhampton,
Cornwall - the rest of his name is missing].
Starting with a modern compendium that many people will consult, it may be
instructive to build a short "ahnentafel" of some sources of information on
these women's names, following the usual format, with numbers attached to
citations instead of generations (work first, then the name given for each
wife of Sir John Arundell of Lanherne (d 1545):
1. Faris *Plantagenet Ancestry....* (Calvert lineage): Eleanor/Jane
2. Brydges *Collins's Peerage*, vol 7 (1812): ? Eleanor/? Jane
3. ST Bindoff *The House of Commons 1509-1558*, vol 3: Elizabeth/not given
4. ? Dugdale's Baronage & MS notes: not available to me, but heavily used by
Brydges
6. Vivian's *Visitations of Cornwall* (1887): Eleanor/Catherine
7. *Complete Parochial History of....Cornwall*, vol 3 (1870): Eleanor/not
given
12. Visitation of 1530 (Benolte) or 1573: ? El[eanor]/ ?
13. Inq pm of Sir John: not given/Catherine
I have not seen the visitation records of 1530 and 1573 used by Vivian, but
can exclude his third source of 1620 which was published separately [ed
Vivian and HH Drake, Harleian Society Publications, vol LX (1874)], as this
only starts from the relevant generation and gives no names in it. The
oddity here is that a visitant in 1573 at the latest should have been given
the name Eleanor, whereas a brass inscription in the family chapel giving
Elizabeth had been made approximately eight years earlier - according to
*The Monumental Brasses of Cornwall* by W Lack, H Martin Stuchfield & P
Whittemore (London, 1997).
However, the lady in question may have died as early as 1505. I can't find
any record of her first name earlier than the brass at St Columb Major,
though this probably does exist within a marriage contract or other
documents in the Arundell archive recently acquired by the Cornwall County
Record Office. (Enquiries about this are apparently not yet answerable.) It
would seem rather odd for the lady's descendants to leave an incorrect
memorial inscription in the church at St Columb, but by the time this was
put in place ca 1565 her widower and sons were dead, and her eldest grandson
had converted back to Catholicism so was probably not inclined to enter or
linger in the the churches of his neighbourhood studying the brasses he had
ordered. If he had done so, he might have found his own mother's name was
wrong too: this woman, who died in September 1564, is named as Elizabeth
(née Danet) in a brass for her daughter (died 1578) in the church of St
Mawgan in Pydar, but apparently was named as Jane on a now-vanished portion
of the inscription over her own grave in the same church - this according to
*The Complete Parochial History of the County of Cornwall* cited by Bindoff
(see above).
My guess is that the last woman's death in Sept 1564 was the occasion for a
bulk order of Arundell memorial brasses, all in a similar style and made in
London, and that the artisan got things hopelessly muddled. This could be
the original or only source of the Eleanor/Elizabeth confusion for all I
know: Sir John's first wife had a better-known sister named Elizabeth, who
married Gerald Fitzgerald, 9th earl of Kildare and became mother to the
famous "Fair Geraldine". Her given name is not in any doubt. Two full
sisters named Elizabeth would be unlikely, although it's certainly possible
if both were goddaughters of their aunt queen Elizabeth of York. However,
there were eight daughters in the family of their parents, all with names
that reappear throughout the Grey pedigree including Eleanor. Their father
Thomas Grey was not especially fond of his mother queen Elizabeth Wydville,
nor particularly close to his half-sister of York, and a determination to
perpetuate the name of either through duplication seems not very likely. The
visitation by Benolte in 1530 may be the source for Eleanor, when the lady's
husband and sons were all still living; or the next one in 1573 at the
latest. Possibly the visitant came away with jus "El." written down, and
no-one was quite sure what this stood for later. Vivian specifically notes
that Eleanor comes from the College of Arms original, not a copy.
Sir John's second wife is called Katherine in every source I know of except
Collin's Peerage as cited by Faris, where she is Jane. This is almost
certainly from a simple confusion over husbands with her sister Jane
Grenville, who married Sir John Arundell of Trerice and became mother of the
famous Jack of Tilbury, Henry VII's friend. It isn't clear why Faris sticks
with Collins's Peerage of 1812, which was his only source in the first
edition (Mr Hines has kindly checked and provided the extra citation of
Bindoff from the current edition). Vivian dates this second marriage in 1507
- Katherine's daughter, the blue-stocking Mary Arundell, successively
countess of Essex and Arundel, was born around 1512. I have never seen a
birth or death date for the first wife Eleanor(/Elizabeth) Grey.
Incidentally, I wonder if Faris followed the trail of Bindoff back to his
source - as a leading authority on the Tudor period, he can only have
consulted the *Parochial History of Cornwall* faute de mieux, it is a very
patchy compilation indeed, though it still has pride of shelf space in
academic libraries today. Anyone who wants to use it should first look at
the choice piece of genealogical scholarship on p 230 of vol 4, where St
Thomas à Becket's ancestry is traced back through 14 generations - the
martyr's mother is given as "Maud, dau. of the Earl of Chylye" and his
stammvater is no less than "Garlois, duke of Cornwall", whose wife "Igerna
the Fair" later married Uter-Pendragon (who "slew Garlois....for love of his
wife") and became mother of "King Arthur, reigned 26 years". Eat your heart
out, Sir Bernard Burke.
Peter Stewart
edw.morgan
In Yeatman's "History of the House of Arundel", under the pedigree of the
Arundels of Lanherne and Wardour, the wives of this Sir John are given as
1.-Elizabeth, dau. of Sir Thomas Grey, 1st Marquis of Dorset, son of Sir
John Grey, by Elizabeth, afterwards Queen of Edward IV. settlement 27 Henry
VII.
2.-Catherine, dau. of Sir Thomas Grenveyle, 2nd wife, sett. 19 Oct. 28 Henry
VIII.
Edw. Morgan.
P A MagLOCHLAINN
(a) How can Elizabeth Grey's marriage settlement to Sir John Arundell be
dated 29 Henry VII, when that king reigned for less than 29 years?
(b) Was this the same Elizabeth Grey who married (presumably later) Gerald
FitzGerald (ob 1534), 9th Earl of Kildare?
P A MagLOCHLAINN
=================
edw.morgan wrote in message <000901c00f9f$f820f4e0$cbb989d4@oemcomputer>...
edw.morgan
----- Original Message -----
From: P A MagLOCHLAINN <magloc...@dnet.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: 27 August 2000 0:30
Subject: Re: Arundell, Grey & Grenville
> Dear Edward,
>
> (a) How can Elizabeth Grey's marriage settlement to Sir John Arundell be
> dated 29 Henry VII, when that king reigned for less than 29 years?
>
> (b) Was this the same Elizabeth Grey who married (presumably later) Gerald
> FitzGerald (ob 1534), 9th Earl of Kildare?
>
> P A MagLOCHLAINN
> =================
Well spotted PA, I had not noticed it, whether it was a typographical error
or an error of Yeatman's I do not know but it was printed 27 Henry VII, a
non-existent date. Can anyone supply the correct date for the settlement?
I have no knowledge of a marriage to Gerald FitzGerald, but Sir John Arundel
married again, so I presume that his first wife had died.
Edward.
> edw.morgan wrote in message
<000901c00f9f$f820f4e0$cbb989d4@oemcomputer>...
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Stewart, Peter <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au>
> >To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> >Sent: 25 August 2000 7:34
> >Subject: Arundell, Grey & Grenville
Stewart, Peter
Even if Yeatman had the right year, I'm not sure that any value can be
placed on this without a source, and especially if the only chronological
information for two successive wives is a regnal year for their mariage
settlements. Does Yeatman claim to have sighted a Grey/Arundell marriage
contract with the given name Elizabeth?
My suggestion was that the original source for this name attached to the
first wife of Sir John (ob 1545) may be the memorial brass at St Columb
Major, and that this could be unreliable given that a visitation record
ante- or not much post-dating it names the lady Eleanor - and another
Arundell brass of the same date and "batch" apparently misnamed a later
Arundell wife over her own grave.
The younger sister Elizabeth Grey married Gerald (Geroit Oge) Fitzgerald,
9th earl of Kildare, in 1519 [see CP, vol VII, p 234]. Her elder sister
Eleanor (aka Elizabeth) married Sir John Arundell before 1500, and was dead
by 1507 when he married Katherine Grenville.
Peter Stewart