Question : NRA

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Orpheus

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Oct 21, 2001, 7:58:26 AM10/21/01
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Is the NRA action just the rules update preventing to play twice the same
card in the same action and to do twice the same action type with the same
vampire ?

If it is, then no problem with reacting twice out-of-turn with Wake /
Majesty with the same vampire ? Or with other vampires ?

And is Freak Drive concerned by this rule ? INcluding out-of-turn ?

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GreySeer

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Oct 21, 2001, 9:14:28 AM10/21/01
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I'm a bit unsure about what you're asking but I'll try my best....

"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:9qudev$arc$1...@wanadoo.fr...


> Is the NRA action just the rules update preventing to play twice the same
> card in the same action and to do twice the same action type with the same
> vampire ?

NRA is a special rule used for tournaments but it is also a very common
house rule. A good explination of the NRA can be found in the V:TES FAQ at
The Lasombra's page. http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm

> If it is, then no problem with reacting twice out-of-turn with Wake /
> Majesty with the same vampire ? Or with other vampires ?


NRA only applies to the acting vampire, you can react as many times as you
like. You cannot, however, play the same reaction card twice with the same
minion during the same action, this is a rule in the rulebook and has
nothing to do with the NRA.

> And is Freak Drive concerned by this rule ? INcluding out-of-turn ?

I'm not sure what you're asking here, esp when you say out-of-turn but
here's a few things that might help.
If a minion, for example, plays Govern the Unaligned at inferior ( (D) Bleed
with +2 bleed ), it has performed a bleed action. If that minion plays Freak
Drive and untaps at the end of the Govern the Unaligned, it could not play a
Scouting Mission at inferior ( (D) Bleed with +1 Bleed ) because that is
also a bleed action ( for the purposes of the NRA ), nor could it take the
default bleed action. It could however, after the Freak Drive, Govern the
Unaligned at superior ( Put 3 blood on a younger, uncontrolled vampire )
because that is not a bleed action.

The Lasombra

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Oct 21, 2001, 10:33:19 AM10/21/01
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"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
news:tt5ik45...@news.supernews.com...

> A good explination of the NRA can be found in the V:TES FAQ at
> The Lasombra's page. http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm

Be sure you go read it again.
The example you use below is specifically covered in the example there.

> If a minion, for example, plays Govern the Unaligned at inferior ( (D) Bleed
> with +2 bleed ), it has performed a bleed action. If that minion plays Freak
> Drive and untaps at the end of the Govern the Unaligned, it could not play a
> Scouting Mission at inferior ( (D) Bleed with +1 Bleed ) because that is
> also a bleed action ( for the purposes of the NRA ), nor could it take the
> default bleed action. It could however, after the Freak Drive, Govern the
> Unaligned at superior ( Put 3 blood on a younger, uncontrolled vampire )
> because that is not a bleed action.

You cannot Govern, Freak Drive, Govern.
That is taking the same action twice.

Re-read section 6.4.1 of the VEKN Tournament Rules.

Alternately, re-read the FAQ, section 3.19, Example #2.

http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm#c3s19


Carpe noctem.

Lasombra

http://www.TheLasombra.com


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The Lasombra

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Oct 21, 2001, 11:13:35 AM10/21/01
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"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:9qudev$arc$1...@wanadoo.fr...

> Is the NRA action just the rules update preventing to play twice the same


> card in the same action and to do twice the same action type with the same
> vampire ?

Not exactly.
You never could play the same action modifier twice on an action,
that has always been in the rules.

NRA prohibits taking the same action twice, where the same action is
any of the following:

Action by card in play: one Haven Uncovered, one Smiling Jack, one Powerbase.
Action by card name: Govern the Unaligned, Fifth Tradition, Temptation.
Action by type: bleed, hunt, equip, employ retainer, recruit ally,
political action, leave torpor, rescue a vampire from torpor, or
diablerize a vampire in torpor.

So, you could attack a vampire with Bum's Rush, Untap, attack a vampire
with Ambush, Untap, attack a vampire with Haven Uncovered, Untap, attack
a vampire through a different copy of Haven Uncovered, Untap, attack
a vampire through an inherent ability (Wynn, Amelia), Untap, attack a vampire
through BloodHunt, Untap, attack a vampire through a different BloodHunt card,
Untap, attack a vampire through War Party, Untap, attack a vampire through
a different War Party. Notice that you could have attacked the same vampire
in each instance, nothing is prohibiting that.

Any card that lets you Bleed, will prohibit you from bleeding with any other
card or from bleeding without a card again that turn. It also prohibits
you from using any other effects that card may have at different discipline
levels. For example: Slaughtering the Herd.
Bleed with Slaughtering the Herd, Untap. You cannot bleed with that minion
again this turn. You may not use the superior of Slaughtering the Herd
either.

(LSJ 1997/09/16) -
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=51mfct%248k6%40redwood.cs.sc.edu

> If it is, then no problem with reacting twice out-of-turn with Wake /
> Majesty with the same vampire ? Or with other vampires ?

Reacting has nothing to do with taking actions.
You may have one vampire untap and block every action
taken by every minion on the table if your cards permit it.


> And is Freak Drive concerned by this rule ? INcluding out-of-turn ?

Freak Drive is an action modifier. You may play one per action.
You may play one on each action. You can play Freak Drive as
many times per turn as you have different actions and blood.

If you are acting out-of-turn, with Madness Network for example,
you are still held by the NRA rule. On each player's turn, you
may only bleed with the vampire once, hunt once, and so on and so forth.
You can bleed and untap on each player's turn though.
The Clan Impersonated Malkavian Masika may take a bleed action at the
end of each Methuselah's minion phase as long as he remembers to untap
between each turn.

Orpheus

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Oct 21, 2001, 11:14:51 AM10/21/01
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> > A good explination of the NRA can be found in the V:TES FAQ at
> > The Lasombra's page. http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm

Fromwhat I read, if you Ambush and untap, you can still (provided you have
what it takes for it) go Bum's Rush, untap, go fulfill a contract, untap, go
make a Clandestine Contract, untap, and go attack through Haven Uncovered.
Is that right ???

Also, it says nothing about using Freak Drive twice on the same vampire to
untap, so I guess that's possible ?


Orpheus

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Oct 21, 2001, 11:53:00 AM10/21/01
to

> NRA prohibits taking the same action twice, where the same action is
> any of the following:
>
> Action by card in play: one Haven Uncovered, one Smiling Jack, one
Powerbase.
> Action by card name: Govern the Unaligned, Fifth Tradition, Temptation.
> Action by type: bleed, hunt, equip, employ retainer, recruit ally,
> political action, leave torpor, rescue a vampire from torpor, or
> diablerize a vampire in torpor.

Ok, thanks, that's what I thought.

> So, you could attack a vampire with Bum's Rush, Untap, attack a vampire
> with Ambush, Untap, attack a vampire with Haven Uncovered, Untap, attack
> a vampire through a different copy of Haven Uncovered, Untap, attack
> a vampire through an inherent ability (Wynn, Amelia), Untap, attack a
vampire
> through BloodHunt, Untap, attack a vampire through a different BloodHunt
card,
> Untap, attack a vampire through War Party, Untap, attack a vampire through
> a different War Party. Notice that you could have attacked the same
vampire
> in each instance, nothing is prohibiting that.

Isn't that creating a great advantage for combat decks ?

Cartman

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Oct 21, 2001, 1:57:39 PM10/21/01
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If a minion, for example, plays Govern the Unaligned at inferior ( (D) Bleed
> with +2 bleed ), it has performed a bleed action. If that minion plays
Freak
> Drive and untaps at the end of the Govern the Unaligned, it could not take
any bleed action. It could however, after the Freak Drive, Govern the

> Unaligned at superior ( Put 3 blood on a younger, uncontrolled vampire )
> because that is not a bleed action.

>Any card that lets you Bleed, will prohibit you from bleeding with any
other
>card or from bleeding without a card again that turn. It also prohibits
>you from using any other effects that card may have at different discipline
>levels. For example: Slaughtering the Herd.
>Bleed with Slaughtering the Herd, Untap. You cannot bleed with that minion
>again this turn. You may not use the superior of Slaughtering the Herd
>either.

Is there something wrong in the above answers, or I'm not catching the NRA
thing?

The Lasombra

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Oct 21, 2001, 2:34:08 PM10/21/01
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"Cartman" <federi...@libero.it> wrote in message
news:n0EA7.67318$1H1.7...@news.infostrada.it...

Greyseer wrongly said:
> If a minion, for example, plays Govern the Unaligned at inferior ( (D) Bleed
> > with +2 bleed ), it has performed a bleed action. If that minion plays
> Freak Drive and untaps at the end of the Govern the Unaligned, it could not take
> any bleed action. It could however, after the Freak Drive, Govern the
> > Unaligned at superior ( Put 3 blood on a younger, uncontrolled vampire )
> > because that is not a bleed action.

TheLasombra correctly said:
> >Any card that lets you Bleed, will prohibit you from bleeding with any
> other card or from bleeding without a card again that turn. It also prohibits
> >you from using any other effects that card may have at different discipline
> >levels. For example: Slaughtering the Herd.
> >Bleed with Slaughtering the Herd, Untap. You cannot bleed with that minion
> >again this turn. You may not use the superior of Slaughtering the Herd
> >either.
>
> Is there something wrong in the above answers, or I'm not catching the NRA
> thing?

Greyseer was wrong.

Exactly as I mentioned in my response to his post.

Look at the FAQ for clarification, http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm
section 3.19. Read Example 2.

You may also verify my statements here:

"All actions taken with a "name" action card are the same actions."

-------------------------

"> How about at different times in the same round? (i.e.
> Govern the Unaligned to bleed at +2, then somehow untap and then use
> another to put 3 blood on a younger uncontrolled vampire?)
-"in the same turn", you mean.
-For action cards, the answer is "no". Each action card is the
-same type of action as itself, regardless of the level used, so
-repeating it is restricted by the NRA rule."
(LSJ 1998/10/05) -
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6vatc5%241ut%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com

-------------------------

"Since actions taken by action cards are the "same" based only
on card name (for purposes of Change of Target and Obedience),
this makes inferior Govern the Unaligned the "same action" as
superior Govern the Unaligned (since they have the same action
card name). Therefore, they are also the same action type."
(LSJ 1997/12/05) -
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=34886DE3.41C6%40wizards.com

-------------------------

The Lasombra

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Oct 21, 2001, 3:36:08 PM10/21/01
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"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:9qur6t$32b$1...@wanadoo.fr...

> > So, you could attack a vampire with Bum's Rush, Untap, attack a vampire
> > with Ambush, Untap, attack a vampire with Haven Uncovered, Untap, attack
> > a vampire through a different copy of Haven Uncovered, Untap, attack
> > a vampire through an inherent ability (Wynn, Amelia), Untap, attack a
> > vampire through BloodHunt, Untap, attack a vampire through a different
> > BloodHunt card, Untap, attack a vampire through War Party, Untap,
> > attack a vampire through a different War Party. Notice that you
> > could have attacked the same vampire in each instance,
> > nothing is prohibiting that.
>
> Isn't that creating a great advantage for combat decks ?

Yes. And they need all the help they can get.

It isn't a "great advantage". Look at all the different
cards that had to be played to make that work without
including any of the combat cards at all. You could certainly
go through an entire deck in one turn, but you are probably
out of the game before you have anything like that set up.

Untapping to fight again is usually very card intensive and
expensive bloodwise. I have two decks that do this based
on the ideas of Legbiter & Phillipe Richer, here:

http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/emp.htm
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/majesty-psyche.htm

One using Majesty, the other using Earth Meld. Both
using Psyche! to start new combats once you are untapped
and then you can go attack someone else. It is also
possible to do it with Freak Drive, but most of the fortitude
combat decks that can do this are too blood intensive or
vulnerable to Combat Ends.

Both decks are very vulnerable to weenie bleed and weenie vote.

GreySeer

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Oct 21, 2001, 8:19:21 PM10/21/01
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"The Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0afd8d8577df4815da5...@mygate.mailgate.org...

> "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> news:tt5ik45...@news.supernews.com...
>
> > A good explination of the NRA can be found in the V:TES FAQ at
> > The Lasombra's page. http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm
>
> Be sure you go read it again.
> The example you use below is specifically covered in the example there.
>
> > If a minion, for example, plays Govern the Unaligned at inferior ( (D)
Bleed
> > with +2 bleed ), it has performed a bleed action. If that minion plays
Freak
> > Drive and untaps at the end of the Govern the Unaligned, it could not
play a
> > Scouting Mission at inferior ( (D) Bleed with +1 Bleed ) because that is
> > also a bleed action ( for the purposes of the NRA ), nor could it take
the
> > default bleed action. It could however, after the Freak Drive, Govern
the
> > Unaligned at superior ( Put 3 blood on a younger, uncontrolled vampire )
> > because that is not a bleed action.
>
> You cannot Govern, Freak Drive, Govern.
> That is taking the same action twice.
>
> Re-read section 6.4.1 of the VEKN Tournament Rules.
>
> Alternately, re-read the FAQ, section 3.19, Example #2.
>
> http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm#c3s19
>

I'm a bad person, but I did write that late at night after I'd been
travelling for 3.5 hours :/


GreySeer

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Oct 21, 2001, 8:22:20 PM10/21/01
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"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:9quovb$sm0$1...@wanadoo.fr...

NRA only limits actions you can take. Freak Drive is an action modifier and
is only limited by the "one action modifier per action per minion" rule.
Since all the actions you describe above are separate actions, there's
nothing stopping you from playing Freak Drive after each one.


....salem christ....

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Oct 23, 2001, 3:39:28 AM10/23/01
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Just a little question about Malleable Visage....

Is the origional acting minion considered to have not taken the action
for NRA purposes, once the vampire with vic has Malleabled it over?
(With Mask 100 Faces, the Masking vampire is "now the acting vampire",
but Malleable Visage just seems to change who is in the combat resulting
from a block....so i am not sure..)

ta,

salem.

....salem christ....

unread,
Oct 23, 2001, 4:00:17 AM10/23/01
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..and something that people often forget is that the vampire that Freak
Drives and untaps doesn't have to act next. You can rush, freak drive
with vampire A. Vampire B goes and does some other action. A does some
haven or something and then freak drives. Vampie C does some other
action. A then bleeds or whatever.

So, it looks quite obvious then that multiple Freak Drives are permitted,
on separate actions.

salem.

LSJ

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Oct 23, 2001, 6:41:14 AM10/23/01
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No. Malleable Visage doesn't chnage the acting minion.
(And also you can use it even if you couldn't have taken the action itself).

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

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