(LSJ) "Tap and enter combat" vs Obedience

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floppyzedolfin

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May 13, 2009, 5:51:48 AM5/13/09
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Hello,
After browsing a couple of examples on the NewsGroup, we came up with
this question :
If an effect has a vampire not controlled by the acting vampire's
controler "tap and enter combat" with someone, can that vampire play
Obedience...
a/ ... before tapping ?
b/ ... after tapping, and having played a "this vampire can play
reaction cards as though untapped" card ?

Here are some examples. The most disturbing is that Deep Song and Yawp
Court are differently handled. Is there a reason for that ?

* If a vampire attempts to block an action and is successful,
Obedience is played before tapping (and he won't be tapped for
successfully blocking).
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/234abb5692fed450

* If a vampire is the target of Deep Song, he can play Obedience
before tapping (and won't be tapped by Deep Song's cardtext).
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2afc03b8086f12d9

* If Yawp Court is tapped to have an untapped Sabbat vampire tap and
enter combat with the acting vampire, then Obedience cannot be played
before tapping, but can after, with the requirement of a "this vampire
can play reaction cards as though untapped" card.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/014baab6dd9fa27f

A bit different :
* If Brujah Frenzy is played, the tapped minion cannot play Obedience
at all. [Though this is a very old ruling, things might have changed
since]
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/063bb0fc2f7ea0a6

What about Status Perfectus / Follow the Blood : can Obedience be
played before the reacting vampire taps?

--

Cardtexts

Obedience
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Dominate
Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with
an acting younger vampire.
[dom] Untap the acting vampire, do not tap this reacting vampire, and
end the current action (and combat). The acting vampire cannot attempt
the same action this turn.
[DOM] As above, but do not untap the acting vampire.

Deep Song
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Animalism
[ani] (D) Bleed at +1 bleed.
[ANI] Frenzy. (D) Tap a ready vampire controlled by another Methuselah
and enter combat with that vampire. In that combat, that vampire is
considered the acting minion.

Yawp Court
Cardtype: Master
Master: unique location. Requires a ready Sabbat vampire.
Tap when a political action is successful, before the referendum, to
have a ready untapped Sabbat vampire you control tap and enter combat
with the acting vampire. If the acting vampire is still ready at the
end of combat, the Sabbat vampire takes 2 damage, and the referendum
is conducted as normal.

Brujah Frenzy
Cardtype: Master
Clan: ={-none-}=
Master: out-of-turn. {Frenzy.}
Only usable when a ={ready}= Brujah controlled by another Methuselah
takes an action that remains unblocked. The Brujah's action is -
{unsuccessful}-. Choose a -{ready}- untapped minion in play; the
minion and the Brujah cannot have the same controller. Tap that
minion; the Brujah enters combat with the chosen minion.

The Status Perfectus
Cardtype: Action
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready anarch. Unique.
Put this card in play. During your master phase, you may move 1 blood
from a ready anarch you control to another ready anarch. When a
blocking anarch has just completed combat with an acting minion, you
may tap this card and choose a ready untapped anarch you control other
than the blocking anarch. This anarch taps and enters combat with the
acting minion. The acting minion cannot use any strikes in the first
round of that combat.

Follow the Blood
Cardtype: Reaction
Requires a Black Hand vampire. Only usable when a hunt action is
successful, after resolution.
This Black Hand vampire taps and enters combat with the acting
vampire. This reacting vampire gets an optional maneuver or press in
that combat.

LSJ

unread,
May 13, 2009, 9:08:49 AM5/13/09
to
floppyzedolfin wrote:
> Hello,
> After browsing a couple of examples on the NewsGroup, we came up with
> this question :
> If an effect has a vampire not controlled by the acting vampire's
> controler "tap and enter combat" with someone, can that vampire play
> Obedience...
> a/ ... before tapping ?
> b/ ... after tapping, and having played a "this vampire can play
> reaction cards as though untapped" card ?
>
> Here are some examples. The most disturbing is that Deep Song and Yawp
> Court are differently handled. Is there a reason for that ?

Disturbing?
With Yawp Court, the vampire taps himself (and enter combat).
With Deep Song, the acting vampire attempts to tap someone else (and enter combat).
So the former is seen as two steps the activator does while the latter is seen
as the thing the acting vampire is trying to do to the target.

I'll update the card texts to provide better illumination on that point.

> * If a vampire attempts to block an action and is successful,
> Obedience is played before tapping (and he won't be tapped for
> successfully blocking).
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/234abb5692fed450
>
> * If a vampire is the target of Deep Song, he can play Obedience
> before tapping (and won't be tapped by Deep Song's cardtext).
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2afc03b8086f12d9
>
> * If Yawp Court is tapped to have an untapped Sabbat vampire tap and
> enter combat with the acting vampire, then Obedience cannot be played
> before tapping, but can after, with the requirement of a "this vampire
> can play reaction cards as though untapped" card.
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/014baab6dd9fa27f
>
> A bit different :
> * If Brujah Frenzy is played, the tapped minion cannot play Obedience
> at all. [Though this is a very old ruling, things might have changed
> since]
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/063bb0fc2f7ea0a6

Yeah. Very old.
Obedience can be played then.

> What about Status Perfectus / Follow the Blood : can Obedience be
> played before the reacting vampire taps?

Just to move cards, eh (since there's no other effect gained by doing so)?

The Status Perfectus looks like Yawp Court.
Follow the Blood looks like Yawp Court.

floppyzedolfin

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May 13, 2009, 9:26:02 AM5/13/09
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On May 13, 3:08 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> floppyzedolfin wrote:
> > Hello,
> > After browsing a couple of examples on the NewsGroup, we came up with
> > this question :
> > If an effect has a vampire not controlled by the acting vampire's
> > controler "tap and enter combat" with someone, can that vampire play
> > Obedience...
> > a/ ... before tapping ?
> > b/ ... after tapping, and having played a "this vampire can play
> > reaction cards as though untapped" card ?
>
> > Here are some examples. The most disturbing is that Deep Song and Yawp
> > Court are differently handled. Is there a reason for that ?
>
> Disturbing?
> With Yawp Court, the vampire taps himself (and enter combat).
> With Deep Song, the acting vampire attempts to tap someone else (and enter combat).
> So the former is seen as two steps the activator does while the latter is seen
> as the thing the acting vampire is trying to do to the target.
>
> I'll update the card texts to provide better illumination on that point.

This is strange. Are "this vampire taps himself (and enter combat)"
from "successfully blocking" and "this vampire taps himself (and
enters combat)" from Yawp Court different?

Is it because "tapping from successfully blocking" is not that done at
the same point as "entering combat" (outline IV-D-3-b & IV-D-3-c) ?
But then, if so, why can a successfully blocking minion play Obedience
and still be untapped?

> > What about Status Perfectus / Follow the Blood : can Obedience be
> > played before the reacting vampire taps?
>
> Just to move cards, eh (since there's no other effect gained by doing so)?

No effect but end the action, with the acting vampire tapped and no
possibility to play Freak Drive or so. Or, eventually, play Obedience
at inferior.

LSJ

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May 13, 2009, 9:39:13 AM5/13/09
to
floppyzedolfin wrote:
> This is strange. Are "this vampire taps himself (and enter combat)"
> from "successfully blocking" and "this vampire taps himself (and
> enters combat)" from Yawp Court different?

The acting Methuselah declares the block successful (and then passes: no Change
of Target), causing the blocking vampire to tap and enter combat (or play
Obedience).

floppyzedolfin

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May 13, 2009, 11:19:52 AM5/13/09
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On May 13, 3:39 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> The acting Methuselah declares the block successful (and then passes: no Change
> of Target), causing the blocking vampire to tap and enter combat (or play
> Obedience).

I'm not sure I get it. Let's introduce a new element, the Promise of
1528: it can be used to defend an acting vampire or a reacting
vampire.
You know I much I like to divide things, and have mini-subphases
everywhere to sequence things properly. L et me try this here :
Acting minion is blocked. This is how I think things are sequenced.
a1 - Acting minion can play cards or use effects as he is blocked:
Change of Target, Aching beauty, use the Slave rule, ..
a2 - Reacting minion can play cards as he blocks: Minor Irritation,
burn acting's blood to the Banshee Ironwail, Voice of Madness, Mental
Maze, .. (funny those two get to be played before Obedience..)
a1& a2 only happen when there is an acting minion blocked.

At this point, minions are about to enter combat.
b1 - acting Meth may use "about to enter combat" effects: Promise of
1528, Diamond Thunderbolt (if it's a Malkavian acting via Madness
Network / a vampire using the Enkil Cog)
b2 - reacting minion may use "about to enter combat" effects:
Obedience, Ohoyo Hopoksia, Diamond Thunderbolt, Promise of 1528 ..
But b1& b2 seem to happen whenever a combat should start (that is
successful action to enter combat, successful block, and, as it seems,
Yawp Court.)

Your answer sounds like there is no such division - as if you skipped
from a2 to b2. Let me ask this question, it will help me get things
clear:
If my acting Giovanni is blocked by a Camarilla vampire, can I play
Promise of 1528 without burning 1 blood to the blocking vampire's
Banshee Ironwail?

(The Promise was the only card I could find that would help me
arguing. All other cards I had a look at were either a1, a2, or b2)

I think I'll make the link with the Yawp Court, Deep Song and other
things right after that. Things are a bit confused for me, by now..
I want to squeeze the Yawp court *before* b1 (though it's pretty
theoretical, since a Giovanni can't play Promise of 1528 when a Sabbat
vampire is tapped to face him in combat ... the one card that remains
is the Diamond Thunderbolt), but I am not sure yet of what that would
mean, though...

Promise of 1528
Cardtype: Action Modifier/Reaction
Clan: Giovanni
Usable by a tapped Giovanni. Only usable when this Giovanni is about
to enter combat with a Camarilla vampire, or is the target of a
Camarilla vampire's (D) action or is selected by the acting Methuselah
in the terms of a referendum called by a Camarilla vampire. End the
action.

LSJ

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May 13, 2009, 12:04:37 PM5/13/09
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floppyzedolfin wrote:
> On May 13, 3:39 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> The acting Methuselah declares the block successful (and then passes: no Change
>> of Target), causing the blocking vampire to tap and enter combat (or play
>> Obedience).
>
> I'm not sure I get it.

The acting Methuselah makes the block successful, not the blocking Methuselah.
That point addresses your previous query.

> Let's introduce a new element, the Promise of
> 1528: it can be used to defend an acting vampire or a reacting
> vampire.
> You know I much I like to divide things, and have mini-subphases
> everywhere to sequence things properly. L et me try this here :
> Acting minion is blocked. This is how I think things are sequenced.
> a1 - Acting minion can play cards or use effects as he is blocked:
> Change of Target, Aching beauty, use the Slave rule, ..

when a block is successful, yes.

> a2 - Reacting minion can play cards as he blocks: Minor Irritation,
> burn acting's blood to the Banshee Ironwail, Voice of Madness, Mental
> Maze,

Yes.

> .. (funny those two get to be played before Obedience..)

? Obedience is in that list.

Of course, it ends the action, so if you want to play "those two", you'd have to
play them first. And, of course, VoM cancels combat (thwarting Obedience's
requirement) and MM ends the action (precluding playing other cards after).

> a1& a2 only happen when there is an acting minion blocked.
>
> At this point, minions are about to enter combat.

Minions were about to enter combat when the acting Methuselah declared the block
successful.

> b1 - acting Meth may use "about to enter combat" effects: Promise of
> 1528, Diamond Thunderbolt (if it's a Malkavian acting via Madness
> Network / a vampire using the Enkil Cog)

These were all options in a1.
There is no separate b1.

> b2 - reacting minion may use "about to enter combat" effects:
> Obedience, Ohoyo Hopoksia, Diamond Thunderbolt, Promise of 1528 ..
> But b1& b2 seem to happen whenever a combat should start (that is
> successful action to enter combat, successful block, and, as it seems,
> Yawp Court.)

These are part of a2.

> Your answer sounds like there is no such division - as if you skipped
> from a2 to b2. Let me ask this question, it will help me get things
> clear:
> If my acting Giovanni is blocked by a Camarilla vampire, can I play
> Promise of 1528 without burning 1 blood to the blocking vampire's
> Banshee Ironwail?

You could play it before burning the blood. But you'd still burn the blood (just
like the blocking Camarilla vampire would still tap).

floppyzedolfin

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May 14, 2009, 3:48:57 AM5/14/09
to
Thanks for all the explanations, things are getting clearer.

On May 13, 3:08 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> floppyzedolfin wrote:
> > Hello,
> > After browsing a couple of examples on the NewsGroup, we came up with
> > this question :
> > If an effect has a vampire not controlled by the acting vampire's
> > controler "tap and enter combat" with someone, can that vampire play
> > Obedience...
> > a/ ... before tapping ?
> > b/ ... after tapping, and having played a "this vampire can play
> > reaction cards as though untapped" card ?

> > A bit different :
> > * If Brujah Frenzy is played, can the tapped minion play Obedience ?


> Obedience can be played then.

I must admit I cheated, Brujah Frenzy is not a "Tap and enter combat",
it's a "Tap that
minion; the Brujah enters combat with the chosen minion." (emphasizing
the ";" here), meaning it could probably be two separate things.
But anyway, the question is: Does the untapped target of Brujah Frenzy
have to play a Wake-like card before he can play Obedience ?
(I think so - he is tapped before entering combat).

LSJ

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May 14, 2009, 6:28:49 AM5/14/09
to

No, you didn't cheat. Tat one is one of the ones whose wording I'm cleaning up.

Stone

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May 30, 2009, 8:19:17 AM5/30/09
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a �crit dans le message de news:
7oSOl.33209$ZP4....@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com...

>
> No, you didn't cheat. Tat one is one of the ones whose wording I'm
> cleaning up.

ok, so to summarize :
-Vamp A plays Deep Song on untapped vamp B : B can play Obedience (and won't
be tapped by DS), but can't Wake+Obedience after being tapped by DS.
-Vamp A calls a referendum, untapped Vamp B uses Yawp Court : B can't play
Obedience prior to tapping, but can Wake+Obedience after being tapped by YC.
-Vamp A hunts, untapped vamp B plays Follow the Blood : B can't play
Obedience prior to tapping, but can Wake+Obedience after being tapped by
FtB.
-Vamp B uses Status Perfectus : same as YC/FtB.

Now for Brujah Frenzy, with 2 different situations (and questions) :
-Vamp A, Brujah, is acting and BF is played by Meth B. B chooses an
untapped vampire she controls. B can't play Obedience prior to tapping, but
can Wake+Obedience after being tapped by BF ? (similar to Yawp Court /
Follow the Blood)
-Vamp A, Brujah, is acting and BF is played by Meth B. B chooses an
untapped vampire controlled by Meth C. C's vampire can play Obedience (and
won't be tapped by BF), but cannot Wake+Obedience after being tapped by BF ?
(similar to Deep Song)

if the answers are "yes", I guess it means a "tap and enter" combat effect
played/used by you on your own (untapped) minions can be ended by
Wake+Obedience, but not Obedience ; if the effect target an untapped minion
you don't control, it can be ended by Obedience, but not Wake+Obedience.

thanks for any input
Stone


LSJ

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May 30, 2009, 7:16:26 PM5/30/09
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Stone wrote:
> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a �crit dans le message de news:
> 7oSOl.33209$ZP4....@nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> No, you didn't cheat. Tat one is one of the ones whose wording I'm
>> cleaning up.
>
> ok, so to summarize :
> -Vamp A plays Deep Song on untapped vamp B : B can play Obedience (and won't
> be tapped by DS), but can't Wake+Obedience after being tapped by DS.
> -Vamp A calls a referendum, untapped Vamp B uses Yawp Court : B can't play
> Obedience prior to tapping, but can Wake+Obedience after being tapped by YC.
> -Vamp A hunts, untapped vamp B plays Follow the Blood : B can't play
> Obedience prior to tapping, but can Wake+Obedience after being tapped by
> FtB.
> -Vamp B uses Status Perfectus : same as YC/FtB.
>
> Now for Brujah Frenzy, with 2 different situations (and questions) :
> -Vamp A, Brujah, is acting and BF is played by Meth B. B chooses an
> untapped vampire she controls. B can't play Obedience prior to tapping, but
> can Wake+Obedience after being tapped by BF ? (similar to Yawp Court /
> Follow the Blood)
> -Vamp A, Brujah, is acting and BF is played by Meth B. B chooses an
> untapped vampire controlled by Meth C. C's vampire can play Obedience (and
> won't be tapped by BF), but cannot Wake+Obedience after being tapped by BF ?
> (similar to Deep Song)

These are the same situations. The second is correct.

> if the answers are "yes", I guess it means a "tap and enter" combat effect
> played/used by you on your own (untapped) minions can be ended by
> Wake+Obedience, but not Obedience ; if the effect target an untapped minion
> you don't control, it can be ended by Obedience, but not Wake+Obedience.

Clarified card text has been submitted to the WW web crew, as advertised, so
look for it online soon.

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