Decks that do and don't work under 7/7
Legbiter
is Gangrel Fame. Dominate-combat is still dam' good, but now you can
defend against it with fortitude. Rush-Fame still works [actually, works a
lot better] and anarch vote is a little weaker. A new deck-type has
emerged, in the form of out-of-turn agg damage combat.
Now i'm not asking people to give away their fiendish new combos here, but
have i missed anything? The reason i ask is that people in my group are
anxious to know what the gestalt effect of the changes is, rather than the
specific rulings. Thanks for any help!
James Hamblin
>
> As far as i can tell, the only deck type that is specifically hosed by 7/7
> is Gangrel Fame. Dominate-combat is still dam' good, but now you can
> defend against it with fortitude.
Just a quick note: Potence can also now fight back against TB with Torn
Signpost and Fists of Death. This is a Good Thing.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
Joshua Duffin
: As far as i can tell, the only deck type that is specifically hosed by 7/7
: is Gangrel Fame. Dominate-combat is still dam' good, but now you can
: lot better] and anarch vote is a little weaker. A new deck-type has
: emerged, in the form of out-of-turn agg damage combat.
: Now i'm not asking people to give away their fiendish new combos here, but
: have i missed anything? The reason i ask is that people in my group are
: anxious to know what the gestalt effect of the changes is, rather than the
: specific rulings. Thanks for any help!
Well, clearly any deck using the old Fame is probably weakened. (Gangrel
fame being the most obvious perhaps because it was the most effective,
what with the Force of Will/Movement of the Slow Body/Rapid Healing/Day
Op loop.) I think "Meet the Inner Circle"-style decks are also
substantially hurt by the loss of broken-Tomb.
The new/old Rotschreck is allegedly fairly amazing in terms of making
intercept-Gangrel and Tremere effective combat clans again (especially
Tremere who have no good recourse against Immortal Grapple; note that
they're also helped by the IG weakening). (credit for this line of
thinking goes to Adrian Sullivan, who's a big fan of the Rotschreck
change as well as the IG weakening. ;-) Tremere: block, go to long
if you need to avoid IG, Burst of Sunlight, Rotschreck. Beautiful,
no? (I think Amaranth is even playable after the Rotschreck, which
makes it especially brutal when you're using Muaziz, and really, why
wouldn't you be using Muaziz?)
My take on the rulings as a whole is that they don't make that much
difference to decks that weren't trying to abuse any of the
individual altered cards.
Josh
wasting time
Jasper Phillips
Legbiter <not.av...@your.security.clearance> wrote:
>As far as i can tell, the only deck type that is specifically hosed by 7/7
>is Gangrel Fame. Dominate-combat is still dam' good, but now you can
>defend against it with fortitude. Rush-Fame still works [actually, works a
>lot better] and anarch vote is a little weaker. A new deck-type has
>emerged, in the form of out-of-turn agg damage combat.
>
>Now i'm not asking people to give away their fiendish new combos here, but
>have i missed anything? The reason i ask is that people in my group are
>anxious to know what the gestalt effect of the changes is, rather than the
>specific rulings. Thanks for any help!
This is pretty funny, since most of the people arguing for change have
been playing with these "new" rules, or similar ones, as house rules
for a long time.
The only change that I can see is that there's more effective
deck variety possible, since serious play no longer revolves around
the power cards like RtI, or weenie vote push. Far more deck variety
possible. The reversals on Fame and Rotschrek do create a little bit
of obvious variety, but nothing really outstanding.
Intercept combat decks using agg damage now have a way to avoid S:CE,
which might combo in with Eagle Sight to potentially make Intercept
effective (although you'd need to diablerize I think).
You might also be able to reliably use Rotschrek as a combat defensive
mixed with aggravated damage, since it wouldn't take much space away
from the rest of your strategy.
Actually, in retrospect this could
be quite brutal since it effectively trumps any rush, although it
might be hard to find vampires for it (Dominate, Obfuscate, and Protean
is the best I can think of, although _perhaps_ weapons). Of course,
it only works once between turns be default, and you have to
worry about hand jam, but sending someone to torpor who would
otherwise stomp you is nothing to sneeze at. Perhaps combined
with Amaranth... I think I'm going to try to make this deck.
I can't decide whether this would be better as a voting or bleeding
deck.
LSJ? I've got a question if you're listening. If a potence
monger rushes me, gets to close range, and Immortally grapples me,
can I still "attempt" to use my flamethrower so I can play
Rotschreck?
The new decks possible with Fame I don't think are particularily
effective (as I've discussed elsewhere), but they do add a little
bit of rather obvious variety.
--
/\ Jasper Phillips
/VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz
j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--.
* http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`
PDB6
Jasper wrote:
"Intercept combat decks using agg damage now have a way to avoid S:CE, which
might combo in with Eagle Sight to potentially make Intercept effective
(although you'd need to diablerize I think)."
I suspect that the Gangrel will be able to make the best use out of Rotschreck
as interceptors, as the Tremere are still suceptible to getting Immortally
Grappled, especially in an intercept deck (as the battle of deck space between
reliable intercept and reliable manuvers will constantly be being waged, and I
suspect the intercept will win out, as it is more vital). The Gangrel don't
have to worry about IG.
"You might also be able to reliably use Rotschrek as a combat defensive mixed
with aggravated damage, since it wouldn't take much space away from the rest of
your strategy."
This seems viable, but you would pretty much have to be a Protean clan,
although my pal Howard's deck that won Origins was a bizzare Pro/Obf/Dom S+B
deck that packed a few Bone Spur just for surprise could have benefited from
this angle pretty well.
"LSJ? I've got a question if you're listening. If a potence
monger rushes me, gets to close range, and Immortally grapples me,
can I still "attempt" to use my flamethrower so I can play
Rotschreck?"
I would suspect not, as you can't use the Flame Thrower, as opposed to Basilia
at long range, who isn't prevented from using her claws, they just aren't
effective.
"The new decks possible with Fame I don't think are particularily
effective (as I've discussed elsewhere), but they do add a little
bit of rather obvious variety."
The new Fame allows combat decks to have a bit of extra variety, but as you
pointed out (and I rambled on at length about at some point), it isn't going to
be a particularly effective angle. The Fame cycling
(Kill/Rescue/Kill/Rescue...) comes at the expense of being a good Rush deck,
and if you aren't being a good Rush deck, you might as well be something that
is more effective than a Fame cycling deck. A fame cycling deck will cause 3
pool loss every 2 actions. A bleed or vote deck will cause the loss of 3 pool
every action. Sure, the Rush deck has the added benefit of killing someone,
but having enough Fame to make this consistent will dilute the effectiveness of
the Rush deck. It is kitchey and kinda funny, but hardly the game breaker
feared by many folks initial reaction.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
"I'm a lucky guy to live in my building
They all need buildings to help them along"
-Talking Heads
Jasper Phillips
PDB6 <pd...@aol.com> wrote:
There's something about your posts that stumps me Peter, whenever I reply
to them they're always exactly 1 character over the line length. Do
you use some sort of editor that lets your wrap around, and then inserts
breaks?
OK, enough gripe. ;-) My usual newsreader combined with the Microsoft
telnet program just can't handle it. ;-)
>NEW DECKS AND COMBOS
>Jasper wrote:
>"Intercept combat decks using agg damage now have a way to avoid S:CE, which
>might combo in with Eagle Sight to potentially make Intercept effective
>(although you'd need to diablerize I think)."
>
>I suspect that the Gangrel will be able to make the best use out of Rotschreck
>as interceptors, as the Tremere are still suceptible to getting Immortally
>Grappled, especially in an intercept deck (as the battle of deck space between
>reliable intercept and reliable manuvers will constantly be being waged, and I
>suspect the intercept will win out, as it is more vital). The Gangrel don't
>have to worry about IG.
True, but then you run into the general problem that intercept decks just
suck -- since they can't do much to their prey. The only way I can
think to get around this is Eagle's Sight, and so I'm guessing that the
Tzimize are the best bet for this deck.
>"You might also be able to reliably use Rotschrek as a combat defensive mixed
>with aggravated damage,since it wouldn't take much space away from the rest of
>your strategy."
>
>This seems viable, but you would pretty much have to be a Protean clan,
>although my pal Howard's deck that won Origins was a bizzare Pro/Obf/Dom S+B
>deck that packed a few Bone Spur just for surprise could have benefited from
>this angle pretty well.
Yah, that's basicly what I was thinking. There are more vampires with
those disciplines that you'd expect.
>"LSJ? I've got a question if you're listening. If a potence
>monger rushes me, gets to close range, and Immortally grapples me,
>can I still "attempt" to use my flamethrower so I can play
>Rotschreck?"
>
>I would suspect not, as you can't use the Flame Thrower, as opposed to Basilia
>at long range, who isn't prevented from using her claws, they just aren't
>effective.
I suspect as much too, then again I wouldn't think that Basilia at
long range would work either. I always figured it was just a counter
to S:CE, Dodge, and First strike. However attempt is a pretty ambigous
term in Jyhad.
vte...@my-dejanews.com
> LSJ? I've got a question if you're listening. If a potence
> monger rushes me, gets to close range, and Immortally grapples me,
> can I still "attempt" to use my flamethrower so I can play
> Rotschreck?
No. You cannot choose any strike except a hand strike.
Even if your Flame Thrower came with a maneuver that you used
during the "Choose Range" step (and your opponent moved back
to close), you still would not get to threaten him with the
Flame Thrower once he grapples you.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings:
http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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vte...@my-dejanews.com
> (I think Amaranth is even playable after the Rotschreck, which
> makes it especially brutal when you're using Muaziz, and really, why
> wouldn't you be using Muaziz?)
Rotschreck ends combat first, and then sends the vampire to torpor.
Amaranth (and other combat cards) cannot be played.
Joshua Duffin
: du...@newton.ruph.cornell.edu (Joshua Duffin) wrote:
: > (I think Amaranth is even playable after the Rotschreck, which
: > makes it especially brutal when you're using Muaziz, and really, why
: > wouldn't you be using Muaziz?)
: Rotschreck ends combat first, and then sends the vampire to torpor.
: Amaranth (and other combat cards) cannot be played.
Doh, my bad. Uh... it seemed like a good idea at the time? (Couldn't
you even play Pulled Fangs, if for example the Rotz was played on an
additional strike?)
Josh
always causing trouble
PDB6
"There's something about your posts that stumps me Peter, whenever I reply
to them they're always exactly 1 character over the line length. Do
you use some sort of editor that lets your wrap around, and then inserts
breaks?"
I couldn't tell you why that is. I use newswatcher to read the group and copy
the stuff I respond to, but I actually post through AOL (cause my wife doesn't
want me to post through her ISP, and I get AOL for 5 bucks a month), so this
may have something to do with it.
"True, but then you run into the general problem that intercept decks just suck
-- since they can't do much to their prey. The only way I can think to get
around this is Eagle's Sight, and so I'm guessing that the Tzimize are the best
bet for this deck."
Always true (Intercept decks sucking and all), but perhaps with the Rotschreck
angle, they might actually be scary enough to be worth playing. The Tzimisce
are real good for this sort of thing.
"Yah, that's basicly what I was thinking. There are more vampires with those
disciplines that you'd expect."
Certainly enough to make a good deck out of.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
"My eyes!
The goggles do nothing!"
-Radioactive Man
LSJ
Pulled Fangs (and other combat cards) cannot be played after Rotschreck.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Joshua Duffin
: > : du...@newton.ruph.cornell.edu (Joshua Duffin) wrote:
: > : > (I think Amaranth is even playable after the Rotschreck, which
: > : > makes it especially brutal when you're using Muaziz, and really, why
: > : > wouldn't you be using Muaziz?)
: >
: > : Rotschreck ends combat first, and then sends the vampire to torpor.
: > : Amaranth (and other combat cards) cannot be played.
: >
: > Doh, my bad. Uh... it seemed like a good idea at the time? (Couldn't
: > you even play Pulled Fangs, if for example the Rotz was played on an
: > additional strike?)
: Pulled Fangs (and other combat cards) cannot be played after Rotschreck.
This confuses me. I was under the impression that Pulled Fangs can
be played whenever a round is ending, even if it's ending prematurely,
as long as its conditions are fulfilled. If you can play Pulled Fangs
when a vamp is going to torpor due to unhealed agg damage (which as
far as I know you can), why can't you play it if combat is ending
due to Rotschreck? You can (I think) also play it if combat is ending
due to a Strike: Combat Ends, which is (as far as I can see) directly
analogous to playing it if Rotschreck is ending combat.
I can see that there's a difficulty in that, if you play PF after
Rotschreck is played, combat seems to have already ended, which implies
that combat cards should no longer be playable. But why doesn't that
apply to someone playing Majesty? When the PF becomes playable (because
the round is ending), the Majesty has already resolved, so combat
should have already ended.
Am I missing something? (Presumably yes. ;-)
Josh
can never just let it go
The Mighty Davethulhu
Since Rotschreck ends combat before any damage is dealt, you wouldn't be
eligible to play it.
The Mighty Davethulhu
LSJ
> LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
> : du...@newton.ruph.cornell.edu (Joshua Duffin) wrote:
> : > vte...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> : > : du...@newton.ruph.cornell.edu (Joshua Duffin) wrote:
> : > : > (I think Amaranth is even playable after the Rotschreck, which
> : > : > makes it especially brutal when you're using Muaziz, and really, why
> : > : > wouldn't you be using Muaziz?)
> : >
> : > : Rotschreck ends combat first, and then sends the vampire to torpor.
> : > : Amaranth (and other combat cards) cannot be played.
> : >
> : > Doh, my bad. Uh... it seemed like a good idea at the time? (Couldn't
> : > you even play Pulled Fangs, if for example the Rotz was played on an
> : > additional strike?)
>
> : Pulled Fangs (and other combat cards) cannot be played after Rotschreck.
>
> This confuses me. I was under the impression that Pulled Fangs can
> be played whenever a round is ending, even if it's ending prematurely,
> as long as its conditions are fulfilled. If you can play Pulled Fangs
> when a vamp is going to torpor due to unhealed agg damage (which as
> far as I know you can), why can't you play it if combat is ending
> due to Rotschreck?
Because combat "has ended" with Rotschreck - there is no space for you
to play any effects during the "is ending" part of combat.
Similar to the reason that you cannot play action modifiers or reaction
cards after a Brujah Frenzy is played - Brujah Frenzy moves straight
past the "about to go to combat" part and into combat - so Change of
Target, Obedience, etc. cannot be played.
> You can (I think) also play it if combat is ending
> due to a Strike: Combat Ends, which is (as far as I can see) directly
> analogous to playing it if Rotschreck is ending combat.
>
> I can see that there's a difficulty in that, if you play PF after
> Rotschreck is played, combat seems to have already ended, which implies
> that combat cards should no longer be playable. But why doesn't that
> apply to someone playing Majesty? When the PF becomes playable (because
> the round is ending), the Majesty has already resolved, so combat
> should have already ended.
OK, I can see that. I'll put that on the list for the next RT review.
But, currently, Strike: Combat Ends can still be followed by "as
combat/round is ending" effects.
> Am I missing something? (Presumably yes. ;-)
No. Nice analysis, in fact.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings:
http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
Joshua Duffin
[why not Pulled Fangs when Rotschreck ends combat]
: Because combat "has ended" with Rotschreck - there is no space for you
: to play any effects during the "is ending" part of combat.
: Similar to the reason that you cannot play action modifiers or reaction
: cards after a Brujah Frenzy is played - Brujah Frenzy moves straight
: past the "about to go to combat" part and into combat - so Change of
: Target, Obedience, etc. cannot be played.
Well, that sort of makes sense. It's just odd that you get to do
things during 'is ending' when combat is ended in certain ways, but
not in others.
: > I can see that there's a difficulty in that, if you play PF after
: > Rotschreck is played, combat seems to have already ended, which implies
: > that combat cards should no longer be playable. But why doesn't that
: > apply to someone playing Majesty? When the PF becomes playable (because
: > the round is ending), the Majesty has already resolved, so combat
: > should have already ended.
: OK, I can see that. I'll put that on the list for the next RT review.
: But, currently, Strike: Combat Ends can still be followed by "as
: combat/round is ending" effects.
That's fine, but I want to also point out that Rotschreck's text of
'Combat ends before damage is resolved' is (I think) exactly the
same as the definition of what happens when a Strike: Combat Ends
is played. (At least, I think that was what it said in the Jyhad
rulebook; it looks a little different in the online VTES rulebook.)
: > Am I missing something? (Presumably yes. ;-)
: No. Nice analysis, in fact.
Why, thank you. I'm trying to fill the void you left of pesky players
giving the net-rep a hard time. ;-)
Josh
hmm, better get some of those insole pad things, these are some big shoes