Newsgroup Reorganization (Again)

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fantasai

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Mar 25, 2006, 2:24:13 PM3/25/06
to st...@mozilla.org
I noticed that mozilla.dev.tech.style (previously n.p.m.style, a
development newsgroup devoted to Gecko's style system) was closed
in favor of mozilla.dev.tech.css.

And then I noticed that mozilla.web-developers.css was also closed
in favor of mozilla.dev.tech.css.

It has always been mozilla.org's newsgroup policy that web developer
discussion does not belong in development newsgroups. The whole newsgroup
reorganization plan was designed around that concept.

So I looked up the bug <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=324057>
and asked why web developer traffic from mozilla.web-developers.css was
being directed to mozilla.dev.tech.css, an internal development newsgroup.

I was told that "the thinking has changed" and "all the questions on
a topic should go in the same group" because "this is the way that users
become developers".

Now, that's the first I've heard of /this/ plan.

When I queried Gerv about where the discussion was that decided this,
I found out that this was a last minute change demanded by three people
and that there wasn't any discussion.

Combining web development and internal development newsgroups is a *major*
policy change both from the declared reorganization plan [1] and also
from the newsgroup policy we've been running with the past eight years.
Furthermore, it's going to have a huge impact on the traffic dynamics
in developer groups. Maybe not in .xpinstall, but certainly in DOM, HTML,
Javascript, and CSS-related discussion groups. (I also don't see how posts
about refactoring reflow and making performance changes to the style system
are on the same topic as table-free CSS layouts and "why doesn't this code
work in Mozilla?".)

The whole point of the reorganization was to create a setup that encourages
both groups to use the discussion lists more. Leaving the Mozilla developers,
the people these mozilla.dev.* groups were designed to support, entirely out
of this decision is inappropriate. It is also entirely out of line with the
open and transparent decision-making process mozilla.org is supposed to be
championing.

I would like to see the discussion happen *here*, in the newsgroups, where
everyone can see and comment. Deb and shaver and bsmedberg can post their
proposal *here* and explain the details and the rationale behind it to the
community it's going to affect. The rest of us can express our wholehearted
support or dissent, we can work towards a consensus, and if we can't reach
one we can call in st...@mozilla.org to mediate. Then someone can file a bug
about what needs to be done so the server ops make it happen. When it's all
said and done, we will all know whether a post about 3-column CSS layouts on
m.d.t.layout is off-topic or not and whether (and where) we should redirect
the poster or not.

That's how it's supposed to work--not by harassing Gerv over private email
to make unannounced last-minute architectural changes to a public plan
that's been mostly unchanged for five years!


[1] http://www.mozilla.org.uk/newsgroups.txt

followup-to: mozilla.dev.mozilla-org

~fantasai

Boris Zbarsky

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Apr 2, 2006, 4:40:09 PM4/2/06
to
fantasai wrote:
> and asked why web developer traffic from mozilla.web-developers.css was
> being directed to mozilla.dev.tech.css, an internal development newsgroup.

I believe the idea (as it was communicated to me in the relevant bugs) is that
fracturing Gecko development nto multiple newsgroups is counter-productive and
that it would make more sense to have all CSS/DOM/layout/etc development
discussion in mozilla.dev.platform or something along those lines.

Frankly, that makes a lot of sense to me...

-Boris

fantasai

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Apr 2, 2006, 8:04:48 PM4/2/06
to

Then I'd expect mozilla.dev.tech.style and mozilla.dev.tech.layout
to be consolidated, not mozilla.dev.tech.style and mozilla.web-developers.css

~fantasai

Michael Lefevre

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Apr 3, 2006, 1:17:49 PM4/3/06
to

That sounds like it does make sense, but I'm not sure you're talking about
the same thing. The discussion here is combining web developer discussion
(e.g. "why doesn't Firefox load my stylesheet?") with Gecko development
discussion. That sounds like it would be helpful to web developers, and
web developer support does tend to creep into the Gecko development groups
anyway, but depending on traffic, Gecko developers may not want to have
web page authoring for Gecko mixed up with the Gecko development
discussion.

--
Michael

Boris Zbarsky

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Apr 3, 2006, 2:07:56 PM4/3/06
to
Michael Lefevre wrote:
> That sounds like it does make sense, but I'm not sure you're talking about
> the same thing. The discussion here is combining web developer discussion
> (e.g. "why doesn't Firefox load my stylesheet?") with Gecko development
> discussion.

As I understood it, the point was to have web developer discussion in
mozilla.dev.tech.css and to move the Gecko development discussion elsewhere....

-Boris

fantasai

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Apr 3, 2006, 2:59:12 PM4/3/06
to

We had a mozilla.web-developers.css group *specifically for* web developer
discussion. It was shut down and discussion was ostensibly forwarded to
mozilla.dev.tech.css. Why would someone do that if all they wanted was
a web developer channel for CSS? We already had one.

The whole newsgroup restructuring was designed from the start to give
web developers their own hierarchy, and there was some discussion even
on how to make the *name* of the developer hierarchy something web
developers wouldn't mistake for their own channels. Why move a web
developer group into the mozilla.dev.tech.* hierarchy unless you want
to encourage web developers to move their discussion to those groups
as a whole?

~fantasai

Chris Ilias

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Jan 12, 2007, 6:21:26 PM1/12/07
to
_fantasai_ spoke thusly on 25/03/2006 3:24 PM:

I think this discussion needs to be re-opened. From what I've been
reading on mozilla.dev.tech.css [1], neither Mozilla developers, nor web
developers like the current set-up; and after one year, I don't know of
any case of a web-developer becoming a Mozilla developer as a result of
the current set-up.

Plus we still get a fair amount of web-dev questions in the support
groups, partly because the name mozilla.dev.tech is not as intuitive as
mozilla.web-developers.

[1]<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.tech.css/browse_frm/thread/5849787097940884>
--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
List-owner: support-firefox, support-thunderbird
mozilla.test.multimedia moderator
(Please do not email me tech support questions)

fantasai

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Jan 19, 2007, 8:18:09 AM1/19/07
to
Chris Ilias wrote:
> _fantasai_ spoke thusly on 25/03/2006 3:24 PM:
[ http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.mozilla-org/msg/ce98283e7fbf512e ]

>
> I think this discussion needs to be re-opened. From what I've been
> reading on mozilla.dev.tech.css [1], neither Mozilla developers, nor web
> developers like the current set-up; and after one year, I don't know of
> any case of a web-developer becoming a Mozilla developer as a result of
> the current set-up.
>
> Plus we still get a fair amount of web-dev questions in the support
> groups, partly because the name mozilla.dev.tech is not as intuitive as
> mozilla.web-developers.
>
>
[1]<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.tech.css/browse_frm/thread/5849787097940884>


I believe the Gecko developers are quite happy to merge what was
previously n.p.m.layout and n.p.m.style into m.d.t.layout. (That
distinction was pretty artificial anyway.) So, I think all you need to
do is set up the web developer newsgroup(s) and close m.d.t.css in favor
of mozilla.web-developer.css. If there are any other m.d.t.* candidates
for moving/splitting, ask first in that group if/where they want to move,
giving the corresponding newsgroup from Gerv's plan [1] as a suggestion.
If the active participants of the group all (or mostly) seem to agree on
a direction, then I say take them there.

[1] http://www.mozilla.org.uk/newsgroups.txt

[Cross-posted to m.d.t.css; follow-up to m.d.mozilla-org]

~fantasai

Chris Ilias

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Feb 5, 2007, 10:55:07 PM2/5/07
to
On 19/01/2007 8:18 AM, _fantasai_ spoke thusly:
> Chris Ilias wrote:
>> <http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.mozilla-org/msg/8218893f7412e8ff>
>
> I believe the Gecko developers are quite happy to merge what was
> previously n.p.m.layout and n.p.m.style into m.d.t.layout. (That
> distinction was pretty artificial anyway.) So, I think all you need to
> do is set up the web developer newsgroup(s) and close m.d.t.css in favor
> of mozilla.web-developer.css. If there are any other m.d.t.* candidates
> for moving/splitting, ask first in that group if/where they want to move,
> giving the corresponding newsgroup from Gerv's plan [1] as a suggestion.
> If the active participants of the group all (or mostly) seem to agree on
> a direction, then I say take them there.

I've just asked in mozilla.dev.web-development[1],
mozilla.dev.tech.javascript[2], and mozilla.dev.tech.html[3], which are
the other three group that have mozilla.web-developer* equivalents, and
were created as part of bug 324790. The only other one created in that
move is mozilla.dev.ajax; and I'm not sure what type of group that is.

I also sent an email to deb, Shaver, and bsmedberg about this; and it
doesn't look like they'd be against it.

[1]<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.web-development/browse_frm/thread/2e25f772b764ab9a>
[2]<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.tech.javascript/browse_frm/thread/623551fcb2fb009b>
[3]<http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.dev.tech.html/browse_frm/thread/a6b24a7235cb257f>

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