Silence Is Golden: A protest against hostility and censorship against BDSM
Isaac
a copy of the slideshow we wrote the night before the KFADEN event.
Because it was so impromptu there's reference to QR codes, which we
ended up using links instead for sake of ease to get the slides out.
Each slide ran for one minute fifteen seconds. As soon as the videos
post, you'll see that there was no other speech or participation,
other than me nodding my head when an audience member asked if it was
OK to join.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9XNzs-WrOfrWlJOREFqbElRZ0dkMWgxeldGMjRMQQ
Secondly, maymay said (on the same facebook note) that there were
individuals who stood with us and felt mislead about the nature of the
protest, and that they regretted standing with us. I would encourage
any who felt that way to speak publicly about their experience, much
of our aim was to give a voice to those who were otherwise rendered
invisible and it's important to me that someone who gave their voice
to that and regretted it have the ability to retract their
participation and why they regret their actions.
Thank you! And once again, I'm really pleased with how everything
turned out, I really believe that an open access forum like this is a
terrific idea and has amazing potential.
Isaac
maymay
> As maymay requested on Rebecca's Facebook note, I'm posting a link to
> a copy of the slideshow we wrote the night before the KFADEN event.
>
> […]
>
> Secondly, maymay said (on the same facebook note) that there were
> individuals who stood with us and felt mislead about the nature of the
> protest, and that they regretted standing with us. I would encourage
> any who felt that way to speak publicly about their experience, much
> of our aim was to give a voice to those who were otherwise rendered
> invisible and it's important to me that someone who gave their voice
> to that and regretted it have the ability to retract their
> participation and why they regret their actions.
For those interested, that reference to Facebook is here:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/rebecca-crane/kinkforall-denver-rumor-control/10150557701106536
I appreciate the amount of work you put into writing URLs onto the mailing list archives in your slides, Isaac. I wish you'd done the same linking to the Facebook thread in your email just now, for all the reasons I already mentioned on Facebook.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Jeff Jizz
dont buy it. Good spin attempt though.
Oh and Isaac, shame on you for not pointing the conversation to
Facebook. Please pay attention to the passive aggressive details next
time!
On Feb 28, 2:44 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 28, 2012, at 12:19 PM, Isaac wrote:
>
> > As maymay requested on Rebecca's Facebook note, I'm posting a link to
> > a copy of the slideshow we wrote the night before the KFADEN event.
>
> > […]
>
> > Secondly, maymay said (on the same facebook note) that there were
> > individuals who stood with us and felt mislead about the nature of the
> > protest, and that they regretted standing with us. I would encourage
> > any who felt that way to speak publicly about their experience, much
> > of our aim was to give a voice to those who were otherwise rendered
> > invisible and it's important to me that someone who gave their voice
> > to that and regretted it have the ability to retract their
> > participation and why they regret their actions.
>
> For those interested, that reference to Facebook is here:
>
maymay
> Um yeah considering we know everyone who joined us except one person I
> dont buy it. Good spin attempt though.
me when I say I won't ever forget you've done that.
Sable Schultz
"Just on the border, Of your waking mind, There lies, Another plain, Where darkness and light are one, And as you tread the halls of sanity, You feel so glad to be, Unable to go beyond, I have a message, From another time..."
-ELO "Prologue" Time
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Jeff Jizz
threats now?
ashi
Are you calling me a liar, Jeff? For your own sake, you better trust
me when I say I won't ever forget you've done that.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
Siren Sage
participated in Silence Is Golden, I would like it to be known that I
have no regrets about doing so. While I believe there was one quote
used out of context, I overall agreed with the spirit of the protest
and would participate again.
On Feb 28, 8:39 pm, ashi <vio...@queerlyamorous.org> wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2012, maymay wrote:
> > Are you calling me a liar, Jeff? For your own sake, you better trust
> > me when I say I won't ever forget you've done that.
>
> Please remove me from this testosterone-poisoned list.
tantrums and veiled threats. For all our sake, please stop acting like
exactly the kind of overly aggressive, power hungry asshole I know (or
perhaps just hope) you disdain.
~Siren
maymay
Also, this is worth saying:
On Feb 28, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Jeff Jizz wrote:
> For my own sake??? What are you implying Maymay? Are we resorting to threats now?
Jeff, thanks to your consistent ad-hominen insults against me and others even before this thread started,[1][2] you shouldn't misinterpret my words to you as a threat. Think of them more like a promise. It's a promise that means exactly what I said: I will never forget your behavior.
I don't appreciate being called "a blog whore,"[1] beyond the fact that using "whore" as a slur is not acceptable in the first place. I also don't appreciate that you said this in reference to Alisa:[2]
> Lol oh look another star fucker. Just read her blog and you can see whose blog whoring dick is up her ass. Blog culture is dumb and full of sheep.
If you're surprised that I'm not afraid to verbally bash back after seeing misogynistic comments you made about people in relation to KinkForAll, you're even more deluded than I thought. You deserve no more attention from me.
Cheers,
-maymay
Blog: http://maybemaimed.com
Talk show: http://KinkOnTap.com
Community: http://KinkForAll.org
EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
[0] https://www.facebook.com/notes/rebecca-crane/kinkforall-denver-rumor-control/10150557701106536
[1] https://fetlife.com/users/19763/pictures/9692007#comment_26447189
[2] https://fetlife.com/users/461781/posts/933149#post_comment_2993226
---- BEGIN COPY OF RESPONSE TO MABEL ON FACEBOOK ----
> Mabel, first, thank you and the rest of the T-Haus folks kindly for letting me crash on your couch the other night after my alternative plans fell through.[0]
>
> Second, I apologize for the verbosity of this reply. I am choosing length over brevity in favor of adding depth to this conversation. Unfortunately, Facebook limits comments to a certain length which I've exceeded, so this comment is chunked into a set. Again, my apologies for whatever inconvenience this causes you.
>
> Thing is, since numerous people in this thread, such as Isaac and yourself, have expressed distaste at "reading blogs" and so on, even though that's where the majority of this stuff has already been hashed out in my own history, I feel it's worth actually writing this through rather than simply linking you to those existing references. That said, I'm still going to embed many links in this post so please feel free to ALSO follow up with those references if you are moved to do so.
>
> And also, I do hope you're moved to read the linked references. I understand that these communiqués are not your cup of tea, but in the spirit of meeting people where they are, please understand that, as a cyborg, it is important to me that those who care enough to understand and listen to my perspective do so in a way that lets me make use of the toolset for interacting with the world in the way that I have learned to survive in it.[1] I feel this is the corollary to listening to you and asking clarifying questions rather than rebutting you when you confronted me at Bearsnail's tour kickoff the other night.[2]
>
> In other words: I was not paying you lip service, I *did* listen to you, as I have to many others. However, perhaps partly because we did not get a chance to finish our conversation that night, I did not feel heard by you. That's okay; our conversation that night was not about you listening to me, it was about me listening to you. In THIS comment, despite its verbosity, however, I request the same courtesy from you: please “listen” (read) as many of my words in their full and original context as you feel willing to do, even if it does mean you spend more time than you'd like at your computer doing so. :)
>
> I want to address your comment specifically, Mabel, because I feel that our conversation the other night *was* productive and useful, and, like I said then, I greatly respected the way you spoke your mind directly to me. This makes me feel a great deal *more* respect for you than I do for others, notably, Isaac or Jeff, precisely because of your willingness to have and stick with difficult emotional conversations in a manner that doesn't rely on sensationalist, decontextualized performance art that makes some of its own participants feel apologetic for participating in it. It's this respect I have for you that makes me confident in my belief engaging with you will be productive to the larger conversation I started back on the mailing list those many weeks ago, rather than contribute more stop energy[3] to this thread, like I already see others doing. (And, modeling that directness, I'm looking at Saskia's earlier comment when I say "stop energy".)
>
> So, Mabel, you say:
>
>> "We were in no danger of being taken over by the BDSM scene in a way that would have made KFADEN ruinously inaccessible to the folks who might already be fearful of the word kink[…]."
>
> Perhaps this is true. On the other hand, perhaps it is not. I remain skeptical, so I invite you to work through a postmortem analysis with me.
>
> If we take a look at the resulting schedule grid from KFADEN,[4] I can count at least 7 sessions out of the 41 that are currently listed that were what I would describe as "BDSM-centric." These were:
>
> * Kink 101 - Crow
> * Female Top/Switch Invisibility - Kari
> * Creating Change Conference and Kink Politics
> * Silence is Golden - Isaac
> * Injecting Fun into Kink - Heather Daisy
> * Class, Inclusivity, and BDSM/"Kink" Discussion - Owen
> * Kink and Mental Health - Jeff
>
> If in this count I also include sessions whose focus feels to me to be somewhat fuzzy in that respect, or whose contents felt to me to be using "kink" specifically to contrast with "vanilla,"[5] then the number jumps to 10 and includes the following additional sessions.
>
> * Intersections of Mental Health, Sexuality, and Community - Evey
> * Intersections of Trans and Kink Identities - Alyssa
> * Human Centered Design for Better Community Experience -Alisa
>
> Out of 41 sessions, 10 spoke directly to or were mostly influenced by BDSM-centric ideologies. I want to be clear here that when I say "BDSM-centric ideologies" I am not also saying "bad and not worth presenting." In fact, Alyssa and Alisa's sessions were two of my personal favorites. Nevertheless, as an example, Alisa's case study was about sexually submissive men; that's BDSM specific. Alyssa's session drew parallels between trans identity and experience and "kink" identities ala "sexuality that is forbidden,"[6] and, later, participants in the discussion Alyssa started referenced BDSM more precisely at some points.[7] (Which, as an aside, I think is AWESOME and something I'm so glad to see others doing—so, THANK YOU, Alyssa, for that session!—since I'm often attacked for doing similar things.)[8]
>
> So 10 sessions out of 41 is 24.39%. If we make equal space for discussions about non-BDSM topic-centrism, that leaves only 3 other dominant topics. Looking at the schedule grid again, I would say that there *was* at least one different dominant topic: gender. Alyssa made this point beautifully in an earlier comment in this thread!
>
> It's also not just Alyssa's experience. Take a brief listen to the first couple of minutes of the "Opening Your Relationship" session recorded from the livestream. In particular, listen for these quotes, right at the beginning of the video:[9]
>
> Person wearing blue: "I'm actually surprised that more of the community didn't come down today."
>
> Person off-camera: "Well, I'd say that, A) the crowd here seems to be skewed young, but more importantly, especially if you look at the topics, it's skewed towards gender issues and—"
>
> Person wearing blue: "Right, right."
>
> Person off-camera: "—not so much, well, I saw a little bit on what I would consider to be 'kink', and very little on what I would consider relationship organizations. I think it's just a matter of the crowd."
>
> Note also that the majority of the BDSM-centric sessions occurred before Isaac's session, which is one reason I'm so glad Isaac's session went the way it did. This is actually a REALLY IMPORTANT point. By way of example, please let me share some anecdotes of my own experience during the day.
>
> In the first session slot at 10:40 AM in Room C, Crow presented "Kink 101."[10] I encourage you to listen to this presentation as it is exemplary of the sort of thing I want to discourage from KinkForAll precisely because its content is so pervasive—and rather essentialist in a whole slew of repulsive ways—elsewhere in BDSM communities. Crow seemed really excited to give the presentation, which is awesome; I don't know whether or not Crow has ever given presentations to BDSM community organizations in the past, but if Saskia and Jeff are still reading, perhaps this would be a good opportunity for them to invite Crow to do something along the lines of that "Kink 101" session in their RACK Room space?
>
> Here's the thing: when I went over the pictures of the schedule grid for KFADEN (and let me insert a HUGE thanks to Dakota for taking so many awesome pictures of this throughout the day!), I noticed that Crow also signed up on to do a talk called "What To Do When Your Scene Turns South", which you can see was slated for 1:40 PM in Room C.[11]
>
> After Isaac's session, I saw Crow leave KFADEN. I overheard them saying very loudly, "It appears SOME OF US are unwelcome here," to which I responded by calling out, "Thank you for doing your thing earlier today." And they said, "Yeah," and left. Someone must have taken Crow's sticky note off the schedule grid and it was eventually replaced by Dakota's "Using Gender Neutral Pronouns." After KFADEN was over, I learned that it was the tweets about this "using GNPs" session[12] that caught Paula’s eye, who volunteered during Closing Essential Communications[13] to get the ball rolling for KFADEN2 or for KinkForAll Boulder, to get on a bus and head down to the event.
>
> Mabel, when we talked about the "overabundance of BDSM-centric presentations" at KinkForAll, you skeptically asked me if this had been a problem in the past. I said yes. Bluntly, I did not feel you believed me. I tried to articulate to you the way I felt it important to disentangle two things: 1) the fact that the word "kink" lacks cross-cultural consensus and is thus illegible to many[14] and 2) the distinction between systemic perspectives/structural influences and individualistic perspectives/autonomous actions.[15]
>
> I commend you (and Siren, and others) for critiquing the power I have as a "founder" of KinkForAll. I believe power always deserves criticism, even if we agree with it, we should fucking criticize it. So you and others are totally on-point with some of your critiques regarding the powerful influences I have on the KinkForAll mailing list and other such spaces.[16] What I feel is missing from your critiques, however, is an awareness of what I am doing with this power, and why.
>
> You say:
>
>> "I really think you did more harm than good in your participation in KFADEN and I fear you're going to continue this pattern elsewhere, as it's become such a part of your explicitly stated role."
>
> I am genuinely curious: Do you really believe that? If so, in coming to that conclusion, are you also considering all the forces at play that make anecdotes like the one I shared above possible, in the first place? Do you see what else I could be doing with the power I have as an influential force related to KinkForAll? E.g., I could have easily made KinkForAll *THE* unconference/convergence for the BDSM Scene. It would have been easy; all I would have had to do was nothing challenging at all.
>
> If I had done nothing, KinkForAll would have been overrun by what I termed on the mailing list "privileged BDSM bullshit" very, very quickly. Take a look at past session grids:
>
> * Out of 46 sessions, KFANYC1 had 25 BDSM-centric sessions, and many of these were explicitly play related. (See, for instance "Suturing 101," "Basic Rope," "Seven Piercing Disasters," and so on.)[17] That's 54.34%.
> * Out of 42 sessions, KFANYC2 had 17 BDSM-centric sessions.[18] That's 40.47%.
> * Out of 28 sessions, KFABOS had 14 BDSM-centric sessions.[19] That's 50%.
> * Out of 14 sessions, KFASF had 5 BDSM-centric sessions.[20] That's 35.71%.
>
> I could go on, but I think you get the point. Contrast this to KFADEN, which, as I mentioned, had 41 sessions and 10 BDSM-centric ones (24.39%), or even less if we consider just the first count of 7. On the other hand, if we assume that, for instance, Saskia's original topic suggestions of "Temporary body mod/art (would need volunteer bodies willing to be stapled/sutured/pierced), Biofeedback breathing for pain and stress management and for enhancing play time, Lead discussion on erotic humiliation vs degradation" would have actually happened, then the BDSM-centrism we are talking about would have been even *more* pronounced at KFADEN.
>
> Moreover, this creates what I've called "perlocutionary effects," an indirect influence over future topics. One example of this in action can be observed by listening to the "three word intros" in the Opening Essential Communications session at the beginning of the day at KFADEN. Right before the beginning of the "Energetic Fucking" session,[21] Sable made the observation that the whole three word intros things privileges those with simple identities and marginalizes people with more complex identities. This is a good observation but an off-point critique because the three word intros are just that: three *words.*
>
> If you listen to the livestream recording of that session, what you'll hear is numerous people using words that aren't very identity-centric at first. For example, one person said, "Curious, confused, here!" In the past, I've used three-word phrases like, "I'm so exhausted!" or “Travelled from SF!” However, as we continued around the room, and as more people chose to use identity-centric words to introduce themselves, it became a game of telephone. By the time we got around to Sable, my guess is that people understood "three word intros" to *mean* "three identity labels." But that's a perlocutionary effect[22] of the space, i.e., an individual's interpolation of previous people's individual actions, *not* a part of KinkForAll's structural building blocks.
>
> (As an aside, nevertheless, perhaps this is an area where KinkForAll's format can be improved, and if anyone has suggestions about how to modify this part of the Essential Communications templates[23] that acknowledges perlocutionary effects exists whether we like it or not, yet remains structurally supportive of autonomous actions, I invite you to bring those ideas up for discussion on the KinkForAll mailing list.)[24]
>
> What I have learned is that the more antagonistic I am to the BDSM Scene, the more space my actions as an individual are able to create for, in Alyssa's words, "people who are frequently silenced or made invisible even in sex-positive spaces." And this gets personal for me because, bluntly, I am one of those people.[25] It's also worth noting that there *is* a distinction between "maymay" and "KinkForAll," and while I *do* have an enormous amount of influence over KinkForAll relative to, say, Isaac, that does not make it appropriate or acceptable to treat me as having the same kind of power nor the equivalent amount of it as a structural force with systemic biases against the work I am trying to do for myself to make my life worth living.
>
> I fucking run myself into the ground almost every damn time I support a local unorganizer (Rebecca Crane, in this case), and the REASON I do that is precisely because I am aware that "whoever does the work owns the conference," to use Alisa's words.[26] Period. If I want to own the conference, then I better fucking get flyers printed and distribute them, have meetings with people who might share our space, video record something, do a session, go to events that I've never considered going to before to talk up the event so people who I'd never otherwise meet will hear about the event, document the methodology and then send people those resources when they ask for help, buy snacks, fund raise, make contingency plans, and so much more.
>
> That does not mean others' contributions, such as yours, are not appreciated or important. They are! What it means is that your efforts are not directed in the same direction as mine. And that's WHY your contributions are so valuable. KFADEN could not have happened without you, Mabel, and like I said when we spoke, I am grateful to you for that. What I ask of you, please, is to recognize that my actions are targeted, intentional, sorely fucking lacking, and arguably more integrious than many of my detractors' actions precisely BECAUSE I have expressly stated my intentions, I make my actions accountable to MYSELF rather than hiding behind organizational red tape, and I do not start rumors or whisper campaigns about petty shit like "misappropriation of funds" in the amounts of $25, which I have been repeatedly questioned about. That is some serious derailing bullshit right there and I would like to have some heated words with whoever's thoughtless enough to spread lies about me.[27]
>
> These petty rumors are infuriating and ultimately feckless in comparison to many others I've had to deal with in the past,[28] but they do serve as an illustrative reminder of what sorts of things happen when one challenges a systemic force—and I believe you are capable of understanding the ways in which the BDSM Scene is a systemic force with power worth criticizing.[29] And also like I told you that night when we spoke, it has been *physically dangerous* for me to be as open as I am about the pains I have experienced and others have written, spoken, and cried to me about at the hands of the BDSM Scene for a long time. And again, let me be clear: I do NOT mean "at Saskia or Jeff's hands," but rather I mean at the hands of the *institutions known as Scenes.* And in this, I do not limit my critique to the BDSM Scene, but rather to all social structures that are affected by what Corey Robin calls "the private life of power."[30]
>
> So, yes, I have power. I genuinely thank you for critiquing my powers. I also ask that when you do so, please be mindful of what I am doing with this power. I don't believe your intent is to make me feel guilty for using my power, but even if it is, I refuse to feel that way.[31] Please understand that my actions come from a place of both extremely deep personal grievance and anger, as well as an extremely well-thought out tactical and strategic plan of action. Please believe me when I say I am *extremely* aware of the privileges I have. I ask that if you are unwilling or unable to hear my whole story and my critiques of the BDSM Scene,[32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40] (please, please, please read the many things I have written about my experiences if you would like to get to know me or why I choose to do what I do) at least believe me when I assure you that I am mindful of where, how, and for what ends I am using these privileges, the powers that come with them, and the contexts in which I am choosing to exert them.[41] I am using this power in a way no one else seems to be doing precisely because no one thinks doing what I am doing is worth doing. And that, frankly, is something I find closed-minded about your critique thus far because it does not acknowledge that a diversity of tactics is as important as a diversity of topics.
>
> On that note, let me share another anecdote. At KFADEN, someone came up to me and remarked that they found my critique of The RACK Room[15] to be unfounded because, and I'm paraphrasing, "It's unfair to make that critique just based on the photos hung on the walls." I answered this person by asking, "Did you follow any of the links and read their content?" They answered, "No." So I said, "Consider the fact that my critique is not solely based on this one thing, and consider also that you could learn more about my views if you followed those links."
>
> That is why I feel insulted and my experience trivialized, Mabel, when you say things like this to me:
>
>> "Maymay, you'll recall at that point I brought up anti-oppression work, and the importance of shutting up and sitting aside when *repeatedly* called out for unwelcome silencing tactics rather than just going to the next city and playing out your power role all over again in what seems to be a deep-seated personal grudge match with BDSMers."
>
> I plead with you, please, do not think I have not thought what I am doing through. Do not make the mistake of treating me as though I am not able or willing to do the work of moving up when I feel it is appropriate for myself to do so, or of moving back when I understand that would be useful.
>
> I *do* understand that what I am doing appears to you to be just a "personal grudge match," but what that tells me is that you do not actually know me or my experiences. Thus, you are not yet able to empathize with me. That's okay, it's not your job to do so. But if you want to "call me out," please at least consider doing so AFTER making the effort to understand me in full, not just using cherry-picked quotes that pissed off some of your friends.
>
> And on that note, Isaac, you told me earlier that you were "sensitive to the fact that the gay community was also under represented on Saturday." Knowing this, I have to question why you found it a more valuable use of your time and energy to metaphorically stomp your foot and cry "Censorship!" instead of, I don't know, reaching out to your connections in the gay community and encouraging them to come to KinkForAll Denver. Frankly, due to your actions, I don't trust you, your motives, or your ability to understand the systemic influences under which you are operating.
>
> That being said, I still really appreciate your session, since it helped me achieve my goals for KFADEN and has helped me lay a fantastic foundation for future conversations about the complex intricacies of scoped power and privilege that are illegible to many people in sex-positive, queer, and radical movements. For that, I sincerely thank you, and I look forward to our future tussles. ;)
>
> Finally, Jeff, you said this in an earlier comment in this thread:
>
> "We helped organize this. All but one person at the Boulder unorganizing meeting was a BDSMer."
>
> So, hey, thanks for helping me prove my points. And in one sentence, no less. You're a rock star. Rock on.
>
> Cheers,
> -maymay
> http://maybemaimed.com/cv/
>
> EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
>
> [0] https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151332744335005&l=de9bb444ec
> [1] http://maymay.net/blog/2011/11/05/on-being-a-social-cyborg-how-icalendar-helps-me-fight-loneliness/
> [2] https://www.facebook.com/events/272982009436290/
> [3] http://maybemaimed.com/2010/02/24/open-thread-when-educators-are-censors/
> [4] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllDenverSchedule
> [5] http://maybemaimed.com/2010/10/05/honor-thy-language-kinky-is-an-adjective-not-an-activity/
> [6] https://twitter.com/maymaym/status/174287768606883840
> [7] http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20695631/highlight/245078
> [8] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/17865402220/this-simple-information-graphic-depicts-various
> [9] http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20695631/highlight/245063
> [10] http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20690619/highlight/244756
> [11] http://www.flickr.com/photos/77347861@N02/6932687309/
> [12] https://twitter.com/drtangential/status/173494947503280128
> [13] http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20697390/highlight/245088
> [14] http://maybemaimed.com/2012/02/23/invisibility-versus-illegibility-kinkforall-shows-how-kink-is-everything-you-didnt-know-it-can-be/
> [15] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/17854730707/individualism-versus-systems-behavior-you-are-not-a
> [16] http://kinkinexile.wordpress.com/2012/02/05/baby-with-the-bath-water/#comment-1184
> [17] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllNewYorkCitySchedule
> [18] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllNewYorkCity2Schedule
> [19] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllBostonSchedule
> [20] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/KinkForAllSanFranciscoSchedule
> [21] http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20690619/highlight/244765
> [22] https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Perlocutionary_act
> [23] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/EssentialCommunications
> [24] http://wiki.KinkForAll.org/UsingTheKinkForAllMailingList
> [25] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/10422252352/omnipresent-eroticization-can-suck-my-big
> [26] http://kinkinexile.wordpress.com/2012/02/27/create-awesome-or-create-cliques-your-choice/
> [27] https://groups.google.com/group/kinkforall/browse_thread/thread/3384fc7f07c26d34#msg_0414d440dea2fc4c
> [28] http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2010/04/06/salvation-army-attacks-sex-positive-activist-through-its-human-trafficking-email-list/
> [29] http://thirdxlucky.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/hate-all-the-systems-love-all-the-people/
> [30] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/14858281678/p-olitical-motivated-firings-fit-into-a-much
> [31] https://twitter.com/maymaym/status/172985580844630016
> [32] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/05/19/story-of-how-to-improve-the-future-always-hate-the-status-quo/
> [33] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/16036372049/the-bdsm-scenes-whiteness-is-classism-at-work
> [34] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/12/04/on-being-bondage-furniture/
> [35] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/06/02/signal-boost-the-devaluation-of-male-submission/
> [36] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/07/16/on-letting-the-world-burn/
> [37] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/04/20/we-are-all-victims-even-the-revolutionaries/
> [38] http://maybemaimed.com/2010/10/13/its-not-changing-the-world-thats-hard/
> [39] http://malesubmissionart.com/post/5498352136/an-opulently-dressed-man-in-greek-inspired
> [40] http://maybemaimed.com/2011/05/02/my-unreal-experience-on-the-kink-inc-armory-tour/
> [41] http://days.maybemaimed.com/post/17865402220/this-simple-information-graphic-depicts-various
---- END COPY OF RESPONSE TO MABEL ON FACEBOOK ----
Jeff Jizz
meant to generate traffic to your blog. You even embed tags on this
group. You have a tactic of stirring up shit and then using that
exchange to drive more traffic. When I see a similar smearing tactic
against my peers it comes off as more of the same. Call my words
misogynistic if you need, but considering several of those upset at
you in that thread are local feminist activists, well I will leave it
at that.
Once again this is becoming about you, so I am ending this as I will
not participate in an SEO campaign for your blog.
On Feb 29, 7:32 am, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've added a reply in the Facebook thread Isaac referenced earlier[0] where I wrote to Mabel. Since it's long, I've also embedded it at the end of this message since I imagine it might be easier for some who are interested in this to read it in plain text than it might be to read on Facebook. (That's true for me, anyway.) Plus, it's relevant to KinkForAll more generally, so it's sensible to archive it here, too.
>
> Also, this is worth saying:
>
> On Feb 28, 2012, at 7:30 PM, Jeff Jizz wrote:
>
> > For my own sake??? What are you implying Maymay? Are we resorting to threats now?
>
> Jeff, thanks to your consistent ad-hominen insults against me and others even before this thread started,[1][2] you shouldn't misinterpret my words to you as a threat. Think of them more like a promise. It's a promise that means exactly what I said: I will never forget your behavior.
>
> I don't appreciate being called "a blog whore,"[1] beyond the fact that using "whore" as a slur is not acceptable in the first place. I also don't appreciate that you said this in reference to Alisa:[2]
>
> > Lol oh look another star fucker. Just read her blog and you can see whose blog whoring dick is up her ass. Blog culture is dumb and full of sheep.
>
> If you're surprised that I'm not afraid to verbally bash back after seeing misogynistic comments you made about people in relation to KinkForAll, you're even more deluded than I thought. You deserve no more attention from me.
>
> Cheers,
> -maymay
> Blog:http://maybemaimed.com
> Talk show:http://KinkOnTap.com
> Community:http://KinkForAll.org
>
> EXTERNAL REFERENCES:
>
>
> read more »
Benjamin Kowalski
Do you really feel that nobody else would get behind this? Of course I'd anticipate a lot of pushback and further discussion (e.g. do session slots feel like a scarce resource we have to compete for? maybe that's a distinct but related problem, etc etc) But it feels like those are at least the right *kinds* of discussions to be having.
Ben
Rebecca Crane
Sable Schultz
Here is the thing though. It is my understanding some of the presentations which were shot down where not even BDSM related. They were just going to be shared by people who are prominant figures in the Colorado BDSM scene.
For example, one of the ideas was - and I cannot remember the exact name - was on breathing exercises and intimacy. Now this is classic Tantric work, not necessarily BDSM related at all. These basic breathing techniques are something Tantric practioners often charge quite a bit of money for a class like this. And we had someone willing to teach this stuff *for free*.
So, because of this personal vendetta against the BDSM scene, KFADen missed an oppurtuninty to receive a free class on something which normally runs anywhere from $25 to $100 per participant to take.
Benjamin Kowalski
Ben
Rebecca Crane
I've so far chosen not to publish these e-mails publicly, because they were a private exchange between myself and Saskia, and I feel like it would be unethical to forward her personal e-mail correspondence to the list just for the sake of "clearing my name." But if she's willing to have them shared with the community, then I'm happy to share them.
I think all this silliness about how Saskia's presentations were "shot down" or she was "encouraged not to come" is just that: silliness. I personally invited and encouraged Saskia's involvement repeatedly, in several different formats, including through mutual friends, directly myself via e-mail, and even trying to "raise a white flag" after all the drama between her and maymay by personally taking KFADEN fliers to a party at the RACK Room - where, incidentally, she essentially refused to so much as make eye-contact with me much less have a conversation. That is until she suddenly called my phone, with no forewarning, in the middle of a the night, to shout at me about - what else? - her problems with maymay.
"I'm not sure what to tell you or how I can help with this..." I said. "Why don't you call maymay?"
Unsurprisingly, she never called maymay.
In fact, to my knowledge, Saskia has never interacted with maymay directly. Instead, despite the fact that she and I have no personal relationship and had never spoken to one another before KFADEN started, she's taken all of her ire about his behavior out on me. The only public place she's engaged in this discussion at all is on my Facebook, and all of her comments have been directed at me personally. Not a single one to maymay, himself. Why? I don't know. Maybe I'm just an easier target. Maybe because I haven't been willing to talk publicly about the way she's been personally harassing me until now, so she figured I was a safer person to yell at. Whatever. It all sucks.
I wanted Saskia to come to KinkForAll, and would have been very happy to see her present on any topic that fell within the rules of the space (e.g. no stapling demo, because of the all-ages oriented "no play" rule). This is the "behind-the-scenes sneakery and shenanigans" that everyone keeps referring to: Me saying over and over again, "I'm sorry you're feeling uncomfortable. I would really like it if you came. I would be very interested in your topic."
There was never, ever, an effort on the part of KFADEN to exclude Saskia or her topics. She chose not to come, as far as I can tell, because she has a personality or political conflict with maymay. That conflict is totally legitimate. He did and said things to her that would piss anybody off. But opting out of KFADEN -- despite the fact that lots of people, including myself, wanted her there -- was a good way for her to get a bunch of other people spun up about it. And it worked. Just look at this thread.
And that's fine. Saskia and maymay are both big players in the BDSM scene and having a noisy, public, attention-grabbing fight is good PR for both of them. But it's manipulative and disingenuous of her to drag KFADEN, and me, into the middle of it. I don't think that's fair at all. I don't think it's fair to me. I don't think it's fair to KFADEN. And I feel sad that so many people who I respect seem to think it's a defensible way to behave.
< /rant >
Rebecca Crane
If "intentionally challenging" is code for "we want this to be a space where we can critique systematic problems in our various alt-sex communities, or maybe just realize that there are radically different possibilities for community organizing", then we should say exactly that.
Hi Ben. :-) That's not actually what I meant by "intentionally challenging," although I think that's definitely one way of being challenged - and one of many ways that KFADEN would be great for, but not the only one. As we discussed in the e-mail where we talked about this before, KinkForAll is a challenging/uncomfortable space for EVERYBODY - so, for some, "intentionally challenging" might mean a place to make themselves vulnerable by critiquing systemic problems, or a place to make themselves vulnerable by looking at their own privilege, but it also might just mean a place to challenge yourself to, say, do some public speaking, or talk about sex around people you don't know, or any other activity that might not come easily to you.
When I say "intentionally challenging," I mean emotionally challenging, not necessarily politically challenging. Political challenges are definitely a WAY of accessing emotional challenges, but certainly not the only one. For example, even though I didn't feel particularly politically challenged by it, I was incredibly emotionally challenged by Isaac's presentation and the aspects of it that felt personally threatening to me - as I'm sure was obvious to anyone who saw me shell-shocked and shaking afterwards. Likewise, with Evey's awesome mental health presentation and the conversation I had with her afterwards about outness and vulnerability. And I was really glad that I had those experiences; they were vulnerability-inducing and scary, but I learned a lot about myself from them. And I got to learn it in a saf(er) container where there were e.g. people who cared about me that I could go to for hugs, and a meditation/visualization workshop that helped me come down from being triggered, etc.
My point is: KFADEN shouldn't be easy or comfortable for anybody. (And I don't think it was.) But it's going to be difficult for everybody in different ways. Some political, some emotional, some interpersonal, some physical, etc. And hopefully it's going to be supportive and empowering and growthful for everybody in different ways, too. I don't think that's "coded language". I just think that's a description of the event. One that I'd love to have more explicit conversations about.
- R
maymay
imagine how the locals feel with your exploitation of kinkforall as a platform to run a sex negative campaign against an entire community you are not even a local member of.
I am glad you bring up the RACK room Maymay. You were granted accesd to my private space for the sole intention of promoting kinkforall. Without Kinkforall you never would have been let into that event, especially after your previous behavior on the group. You showed up with a notepad and proceded to take notes about the space and the individuals. You also left a BDSM bingo sheet next to the flyers which makes fun of BDSM presentations as a way to say fuck you to BDSM presenters. You used kinkforall to do this. You exploited kinkforall to gain access in a premeditated act to further your agenda. I dont care as much about the blog post itself, it is that you used kinkforall to violate that trust, especially after Saskia expressed reservations about it.
Maymay, when I say blog whore I mean that everything you do online is
meant to generate traffic to your blog. You even embed tags on this
group. You have a tactic of stirring up shit and then using that
exchange to drive more traffic. When I see a similar smearing tactic
against my peers it comes off as more of the same. Call my words
misogynistic if you need, but considering several of those upset at
you in that thread are local feminist activists, well I will leave it
at that.
Once again this is becoming about you, so I am ending this as I will
not participate in an SEO campaign for your blog.
People who know me or know Jeff and I have been whispering realize at this point whats about to happen.
I would say at least 50% of the attendees I saw were BDSM'ers and that number would have been much higher if shit did not hit the fan.
The KinkforAllDenver excluded BDSM? That's like a GOP convention excluding all Republicans.
Rebecca, I wasn't actually trying to talk about the "intentionally challenging" thing, but here too I think we'd be best served by radical transparency. If "intentionally challenging" is code for "we want this to be a space where we can critique systematic problems in our various alt-sex communities, or maybe just realize that there are radically different possibilities for community organizing", then we should say exactly that. I think that's a goal that a *lot* of us would already get behind; the coded language is both unnecessary and invites misunderstanding.
Ben
On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Sable Schultz <sable.t...@gmail.com> wrote:Here is the thing though. It is my understanding some of the presentations which were shot down where not even BDSM related. They were just going to be shared by people who are prominant figures in the Colorado BDSM scene.
For example, one of the ideas was - and I cannot remember the exact name - was on breathing exercises and intimacy. Now this is classic Tantric work, not necessarily BDSM related at all. These basic breathing techniques are something Tantric practioners often charge quite a bit of money for a class like this. And we had someone willing to teach this stuff *for free*.
So, because of this personal vendetta against the BDSM scene, KFADen missed an oppurtuninty to receive a free class on something which normally runs anywhere from $25 to $100 per participant to take.
Jeff Jizz
such a freedom fighting maverick.
On Feb 29, 8:10 pm, maymay <bitetheappleb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Y'know, I was gonna let this die, Jeff, but when decontextualization tactics[0] of the sort you've been using pile up like this, it demands a response. There's only one other situation involving people who were so invested in targeting me personally: Donna M. Hughes's "Citizens Against Trafficking" group seemed to hate my guts because, in their view, I was a BDSM-friendly sex-positive activist.[1] You seem to hate my guts because you view my behavior as being anti-BDSM and "sex-negative". You said:[3]
>
> > imagine how the locals feel with your exploitation of kinkforall as a platform to run a sex negative campaign against an entire community you are not even a local member of.
>
> And also:[4]
>
> > I am glad you bring up the RACK room Maymay. You were granted accesd to my private space for the sole intention of promoting kinkforall. Without Kinkforall you never would have been let into that event, especially after your previous behavior on the group. You showed up with a notepad and proceded to take notes about the space and the individuals. You also left a BDSM bingo sheet next to the flyers which makes fun of BDSM presentations as a way to say fuck you to BDSM presenters. You used kinkforall to do this. You exploited kinkforall to gain access in a premeditated act to further your agenda. I dont care as much about the blog post itself, it is that you used kinkforall to violate that trust, especially after Saskia expressed reservations about it.
>
> First of all, I didn't have a notepad, I used my own business cards and a pen to write notes to myself, mostly notes about the imagery the RACK Room featured on the walls, and also contact information for the people I spoke to when they offered me links to their websites and FetLife profiles. The BDSM Bingo sheets you referenced are these:
>
> http://maybemaimed.com/playground/bdsm-bingo/
>
> But, hey, let's not make this about me. Okay? Instead, let's talk about how it is the RACK Room exists, why it's so similar to so many other BDSM venues I've been to, and why my behavior pisses people, not just you, off so much.
>
> To that, I challenge you: Doesn't the fact that the religious right hates me for being BDSM-friendly and sex-positive and you hate me for behaving in ways you deem anti-BDSM and sex-negative tell you *anything* about the structural systems in which we are complicit? Even just a little tiny SOMETHING? Obviously you don't agree with what *I* think it says about these systems,[5] and that's fine, but can't you come up with SOMETHING substantive AT ALL? Like I said earlier, I *know* (but now I'll more accurately just say that I at least hope) you're smarter than you make yourself out to be.[6]
>
> And you also said this:
>
> On Feb 29, 2012, at 6:41 AM, Jeff Jizz wrote:
>
> > Maymay, when I say blog whore I mean that everything you do online is
> > meant to generate traffic to your blog. You even embed tags on this
> > group. You have a tactic of stirring up shit and then using that
> > exchange to drive more traffic. When I see a similar smearing tactic
> > against my peers it comes off as more of the same. Call my words
> > misogynistic if you need, but considering several of those upset at
> > you in that thread are local feminist activists, well I will leave it
> > at that.
>
> > Once again this is becoming about you, so I am ending this as I will
> > not participate in an SEO campaign for your blog.
>
> This reminds me of that recent study which showed homophobic men were the study group most aroused by homosexual porn.[7] The fact that you are evidently capable of viewing my actions solely in the narrow way you do shows the depth with which you are invested in the capitalist system that grants you the privileges I've termed "privileged BDSM bullshit."[8] Need I remind you that it is you whose income is at least in part derived from a for-profit BDSM venue?[5]
>
> This is why I am so damned grateful for even the smallest of donations that people choose to send me. That way I can do things like travel, but also things I have to do even more frequently, like EAT FOOD.
>
> Now, I tried several times to have a conversation with you at the RACK Room and you hardly even looked up from your computer all night at Matriarchy. Part of the reason I accepted your gracious invitation to come flyer for KFADEN *was to meet with you and Saskia.* For her part, when I tried to introduce myself Saskia, she barely took my hand, never made eye contact, and just kept walking by me. For your part, when I finally moved to head back to my hosts', I approached you one last time while fetching my things in a last ditch effort to actually *have* a conversation with you.
>
> Again, you barely acknowledged my presence, citing that it was "totally a work night" or something like that. I sympathized, stating again that I was familiar with the IT/sysadmin grind,[9] and stating, "Well, I'll be at KFADEN. Maybe I'll see you there?" As I recall, it was at that point you pushed yourself away from the table, finally looked up at me, and said, "Oh, I'll definitely be there." I remember because it seemed odd that you would suddenly be so emphatic.
>
> Matriarchy was Friday, February 17.[10] Isaac's recent FetLife post about your KFADEN session states:[11]
>
> > People who know me or know Jeff and I have been whispering realize at this point whats about to happen.
>
> So, my takeaway is that perhaps I would've been better served if I simply behaved more along the lines of, "Go fuck yourself" towards you from the very beginning. I no longer believe you had any intent of inviting me to the RACK Room with a genuine interest in interacting with me in any meaningful way, and I think you already had at least a vague idea of what you wanted to do at KFADEN when Rebecca and I got there that night.
>
> Obviously, I pissed you off on the mailing list (and I'm in no way sorry about that) but, of the two of us, I was not the one who chose to disengage first. I couldn't possibly have proven my points about the privileged BDSM bullshit we talked about[8] better if I'd made a presentation about it myself. And I *didn't* in part because I don't want to talk about BDSM at KinkForAll, so to date I never have, precisely BECAUSE of the systemic influences that ensure KinkForAll is going to be a privileged environment for BDSM'ers. In your own words, Jeff, your own fucking words:[12]
>
> > I would say at least 50% of the attendees I saw were BDSM'ers and that number would have been much higher if shit did not hit the fan.
>
> Does it not strike you as even a tiny little bit problematic when a space intended to be "ForAll" is overwhelmingly dominated by BDSM'ers? I've seen the following analogy made by commenters in your FetLife threads:[13]
>
> > The KinkforAllDenver excluded BDSM? That's like a GOP convention excluding all Republicans.
>
> The correct analogy is more along the lines of the GOP doing everything it possibly can do to make sure there is speaking space at the GOP convention that's available for Democrats, Independents, and people who are not yet registered with any political party, while at the same time not actually telling any GOP party members that they don't have a right to come to the convention, knowing full well what windbags GOP politicians can be. Now, can you imagine ANY political party doing that? If not, consider the possibility that your lack of imagination is why you can't conceive that what I've been doing with KinkForAll Denver was trying to ensure things went down that way.
>
> And since no one else seems to be able or willing to do so, I just want to point out the fucked-up-ness of a lauded BDSM Scene member who owns a for-profit BDSM venue with his married partner calling me and Alisa "blog whore"s and "pimps,"[14] (and, as an aside, WHAT is WITH all the sex work slurs, Jeff?! For fuck's sake, YOU AND YOUR WIFE OPERATE A PRO-DOMME HOUSE AND MAKE AND SELL PORN!) who calls Alisa's "voice…just an extension of Maymay's," erasing her agency by using misogynistic ad-hominem insults.
>
> I'm not surprised at Jeff's behavior. I'm *disappointed* in everyone else who's apparently too invested in this BDSM Scene-State Work-Play economy[15] that they're not saying one peep about, or at least not *noticing* behavior like Jeff's. Don't you fancy yourselves well-versed and sensitive to anti-oppression work? Is Jeff's social capital that strong? Is that not also a form of power worth criticizing?[16]
>
> And in making these points I'm not even talking directly about the way behavior like Jeff's effects *me,* or Alisa (despite the fact that it does). Rather, I'm talking about the structural ways behavior like Jeff's contributes to a system called the BDSM Scene that keeps submissive-identified people of any gender from claiming personal autonomy, that makes it easy for abusers and rapists to prey in BDSM venues, and worse.[17] Jesus fucking christ, people! This dynamic mirrors an abused person defending their abusers. What are we so afraid of or hurt by that makes it difficult to see this clearly?!
>
>
> read more »
Jeff Jizz
before the event.
> > This is why I am so damned grateful for even the smallest of donations that people choose to send me. That way I can do things like travel, but also things I have to do even more frequently, like EAT FOOD.
>
> > Now, I tried several times to have a conversation with you at the RACK Room and you hardly even looked up from your computer all night at Matriarchy. Part of the reason I accepted your gracious invitation to come flyer for KFADEN *was to meet with you and Saskia.* For her part, when I tried to introduce myself Saskia, she barely took my hand, never made eye contact, and just kept walking by me. For your part, when I finally moved to head back to my hosts', I approached you one last time while fetching my things in a last ditch effort to actually *have* a conversation with you.
>
> > Again, you barely acknowledged my presence, citing that it was "totally a work night" or something like that. I sympathized, stating again that I was familiar with the IT/sysadmin grind,[9] and stating, "Well, I'll be at KFADEN. Maybe I'll see you there?" As I recall, it was at that point you pushed yourself away from the table, finally looked up at me, and said, "Oh, I'll definitely be there." I remember because it seemed odd that you would suddenly be so emphatic.
>
> > Matriarchy was Friday, February 17.[10] Isaac's recent FetLife post about your KFADEN session states:[11]
>
> > > People who know me or know Jeff and I have been whispering realize at this point whats about to happen.
>
> > So, my takeaway is that perhaps I would've been better served if I simply behaved more along the lines of, "Go fuck yourself" towards you from the very beginning. I no longer believe you had any intent of inviting me to the RACK Room with a genuine interest in interacting with me in any meaningful way, and I think you already had at least a vague idea of what you wanted to do at KFADEN when Rebecca and I got there that night.
>
> > Obviously, I pissed you off on the mailing list (and I'm in no way sorry about that) but, of the two of us, I was not the one who chose to disengage first. I couldn't possibly have proven my points about the privileged BDSM bullshit we talked about[8] better if I'd made a presentation about it myself. And I *didn't* in part because I don't want to talk about BDSM at KinkForAll, so to date I never have, precisely BECAUSE of the systemic influences that ensure KinkForAll is going to be a privileged environment for BDSM'ers. In your own words, Jeff, your own fucking words:[12]
>
> > > I would say at least 50% of the attendees I saw were BDSM'ers and that number would have been much higher if shit did not hit the fan.
>
> > Does it not strike you as even a tiny little bit problematic when a space intended to be "ForAll" is overwhelmingly dominated by BDSM'ers? I've seen the following analogy made by commenters in your FetLife threads:[13]
>
> > > The KinkforAllDenver excluded BDSM? That's like a GOP convention excluding all Republicans.
>
> > The correct analogy is more along the lines of the GOP doing everything it possibly can do to make sure there is speaking space at the GOP convention that's available for Democrats, Independents, and people who are not yet registered with any political party, while at the same time not actually telling any GOP party members that they don't have a right to come to the convention, knowing full well what windbags GOP politicians can be. Now, can you imagine ANY political party doing that? If not, consider the possibility that your lack of imagination is why you can't conceive that what I've been doing with KinkForAll Denver was trying to ensure things went down that way.
>
> > And since no one else seems to be able or willing to do so, I just want to point out the fucked-up-ness of a lauded BDSM Scene member who owns a for-profit BDSM venue with his married partner calling me and Alisa "blog whore"s and "pimps,"[14] (and, as an aside, WHAT is WITH all the sex work slurs, Jeff?! For fuck's sake, YOU AND YOUR WIFE OPERATE A PRO-DOMME HOUSE AND MAKE AND SELL PORN!) who calls Alisa's "voice…just an extension of Maymay's," erasing her agency by using misogynistic ad-hominem insults.
>
> > I'm not surprised at Jeff's behavior. I'm *disappointed* in everyone else who's apparently too invested in this BDSM Scene-State Work-Play economy[15] that they're not saying one peep about, or at least not *noticing* behavior like Jeff's. Don't you fancy yourselves well-versed and sensitive to anti-oppression work? Is Jeff's social capital that strong? Is that not also a form of power worth criticizing?[16]
>
> > And in making these points I'm not even talking directly about the way behavior like Jeff's effects *me,* or Alisa (despite the fact that it does). Rather, I'm talking about the structural ways behavior like Jeff's contributes to a system called the BDSM Scene that keeps submissive-identified people of any gender from claiming personal autonomy, that makes it easy for abusers and rapists to prey in BDSM venues, and worse.[17] Jesus fucking christ, people! This dynamic mirrors an abused person defending their abusers. What are we so afraid of or hurt by that makes it difficult to see this clearly?!
>
> > On a personal note, Jeff's
>
>
> read more »
ashi
Maymay, when I say blog whore I mean that everything you do online is
meant to generate traffic to your blog. You even embed tags on this
group. You have a tactic of stirring up shit and then using that
exchange to drive more traffic. When I see a similar smearing tactic
against my peers it comes off as more of the same. Call my words
misogynistic if you need, but considering several of those upset at
you in that thread are local feminist activists, well I will leave it
at that.
Sable Schultz
+1 Thank you ashi.
--
Sable Schultz
Oh, and I want to add, slamming anyone for making money off of any form of sex work - including, but not limited to - professional domination, running a bdsm club, or providing BDSM tools, supply, or knowledge is innapprate. It shows a decided lack of resepct for those attempting to survive in alternative markets in a very sex negative and puritanical society, and certial level of sex worker negitivity. And when coupled with a sentiment of "not anti-capitolist or anti-establishment enough" demonstrates a decided level of elitism and entitlement, and, to me, smacks of a certain level of economic privildge.
--
Jeff Jizz
Burn! Valid point and point taken.
Jeff Jizz
who read this list who feel that way. Ashi is 100% correct for calling
me out in that regard. I did not even consider that point and admit my
ignorance to how that would have marginalize others who work in a
profession which my own friends are proud to be a part of.As someone
who works with sex workers, is married to a sex worker, and maybe even
considered a sex worker myself (if you view on camera adult video work
in that category), there is absolutely nothing about adult sex work I
consider shameful. My views about Maymay and his endless self
promotion remain unchanged but there are probably better ways to
express that.