Data-Only SIMS, Google Voice, SMS Forwarding, and WeChat in China

[sms]

Yesterday I was asked to go to China in a few weeks. It's a whirlwind
trip, 5 days, and the woman that asked me to go wants me to use Wechat
on my phone since our hosts in China can't use WhatsApp. I've used
Wechat a little, but since it's mainly used in Chinese, I haven't been
much of a user.

Since we're going straight from Shanghai to a small city (800,000
people!) I won't have time to start doing SIM shopping. China Unicom HK
sells an 8 day data-only SIM for $15 with 2GB of high speed data which
should be plenty.

So I started to figure out how I could forward my texts and voice calls
to my Google Voice number so I can use the SIM card, perhaps with a VPN
(but it's a Hong Kong SIM so Google, Facebook, Youtube, are not blocked
according to reviews on Amazon).

Being able to receive SMS is very important because often there are
authentication codes sent only via SMS.

With Android devices there are a bunch of SMS forwarding apps available.
So I can leave a phone with my regular SIM card at home and bring
another phone with me. Calls and texts will be forwarded to Google
Voice. My Moto X4 has all the bands necessary for China (my Stylo 3 Plus
does not).

On iOS devices they don't allow SMS forwarding apps which is a real
pain. They view SMS forwarding as a security risk, and they're probably
right to some degree, considering two-factor authentication, but they
should give the user the option to take that risk.

[nospam]

In article <pkta0j$mkd$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> On iOS devices they don't allow SMS forwarding apps which is a real
> pain.

false. just because *you* don't know how doesn't mean it's forbidden

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 18:07:20 GMT, sms wrote:

> On iOS devices they don't allow SMS forwarding apps which is a real
> pain.

This isn't for sms (who knows all this) ... this post is for android users.

Almost everything on iOS is "a real pain" compared to the ease of Android.
How hard would it be to name a hundred functional things Android apps do that iOS apps just can't do?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/OAls8ZO1dCI/L2xeT4ktBQAJ>

Proven idiots like nospam who have zero credibility, will scream otherwise.
Why do the Apple Apologists deny facts & habitually fabricate imaginary content?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/eRTC23FyVDY/fDk0k8KAAwAJ>

But the fact is that iOS is a primitive system locked up by Apple.
Is there a single bit of functionality on iOS that isn't already on Android?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/trNDEOFg-A4/hWr22d6DBwAJ>

What nospam constantly claims is that everything can be done on iOS, but,
not surprisingly, he never knows how to do anything on iOS.

All he is is talk but no references, no proof, no backing up claims.
Guys like nospam have proven that their entire belief system is a sham.

If you pin him down, he lies and says he told you how (when he didn't).
If you continue to pin him down, he'll say he told you but you didn't do
it.
Why do the iOS trolls like Jolly Roger & nospam always FABRICATE everything?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/GExRc1qrFGo/JBzdCKSSAwAJ>

If you continue to pin him down, you'll get the most childish set of
nonsensical excuses out of him (and the other Apple Apologists).
What technical tricks can iOS users use to do the simplest of things?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c566n86RdyQ/2GzrrDHGBQAJ>

I've wondered for years why the Apple Apologists brazenly fabricate
imaginary functionality but they never can come up with a single fact:
What are the common well-verified psychological traits of the Apple Apologists on this newsgroup?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM/veU8FwAjBQAJ>

Apple Apologists like nospam are not like normal adults.
They have almost no formal education (which they prove in every post).

But what's worse is that they lie incessantly about imaginary functionality
that never seems to exist, even after decades they continue to brazenly
fabricate imaginary functionality.

Why?
I don't know why.

The Windows, Linux, and Android users can speak facts about their OS.
It's only the Apple Apologists who have no concept whatsoever of facts.

I think facts don't fit into their imaginary belief system.
Why do the Apple Apologists deny facts & habitually fabricate imaginary content?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/eRTC23FyVDY/fDk0k8KAAwAJ>

[Arlen Holder]

On 13 Aug 2018 18:07:20 GMT, sms wrote:

> Yesterday I was asked to go to China in a few weeks.

I used to visit Shanghai (and the technical trading zones nearby) but when
I did, we had to bring our own throwaway cellphones (since I was on Verizon
at that time) to buy a local SIM card, and even then, all the frequencies
had to line up - which was a pain to do.

The local people were always very helpful - but you had to bring the right
phone for them to get you a SIM card that did both calls & SMS.

Unfortunately, that was years ago, so I can't help you but I want to say
that your concerns are valid - and I wanted to let Android users know to
ignore that nospam guy - who brazenly fabricates imaginary functionality
every day but he never backs anything up with facts (because they don't
exist).

> It's a whirlwind
> trip, 5 days, and the woman that asked me to go wants me to use Wechat
> on my phone since our hosts in China can't use WhatsApp. I've used
> Wechat a little, but since it's mainly used in Chinese, I haven't been
> much of a user.

There seem to be a bunch of WeChat-versus-WhatsAp reviews...

This says they're both extremely vulnerable on both iOS & Android, so
there's not much of a difference there if that's factually true:
<https://www.appfutura.com/blog/wechat-versus-whatsapp-which-instant-messaging-app-is-the-most-used-by-young-users/>

This says the Chinese use it for social media in addition to chat:
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/rahilbhagat/2016/09/29/5-wechat-features-that-whatsapp-should-really-use/#6e2266b27eea>

This says What'sApp is ranked 8th while WeChat is ranked 33rd:
<https://www.slant.co/versus/1927/1983/~wechat_vs_whatsapp>

This explains where WeChat is better than What'sAp:
<https://www.indiatimes.com/technology/mobile/10-reasons-why-wechat-is-better-than-whatsapp-58313.html>

This explains what WeChat does that WhatsAp doesn't:
<https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-WeChat-and-WhatsApp>

Here's a side-by-side chart of the features comparison:
<https://versus.com/en/wechat-vs-whatsapp>

> Since we're going straight from Shanghai to a small city (800,000
> people!) I won't have time to start doing SIM shopping. China Unicom HK
> sells an 8 day data-only SIM for $15 with 2GB of high speed data which
> should be plenty.

It's pretty hard to shop for SIM cards in Shanghai. Even I let the locals
do it for me. I gave them money, and let them do it. It was hard, even for
them. For you, I agree with your assessmenet that you won't have the time
to do it when you're in

> So I started to figure out how I could forward my texts and voice calls
> to my Google Voice number so I can use the SIM card, perhaps with a VPN
> (but it's a Hong Kong SIM so Google, Facebook, Youtube, are not blocked
> according to reviews on Amazon).

There are Chinese VPNs. We had a thread on one of them recently.
Pragmatic experience with Freegate, Ultrasurf, and Polarity
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/oHuik0iDqcA/7GJlVUiyCgAJ>

Personally, if you want VPN on your Android phone, I'd do this:
1. Load the OpenVPN client from Google Play or from F-Droid
2. Point to a previously download openvpn text config file.

You can get the free openVPN text config files from a bunch of places.
Here's just one: http://vpngate.net

On iOS, everything is harder (as you're well aware), so, if you want it for
iOS, I can explain the steps, but only to nospam is what's impossible
possible (but, as you know, he never can come up with the factual goods).

Here's a VPN how to for Android:
VPN "How to"?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/K91Qh0bv9s4/h4aFVEv1BAAJ>

> Being able to receive SMS is very important because often there are
> authentication codes sent only via SMS.

Yup. You need SMS when you travel.

Plus, with some plans (like my T-Mobile defaults), you get free tethering,
free hotspotting, free unlimited data and free unlimited SMS while outside
the USA. Calls outside the USA are typically 20 cents a minute, unless you
do them on WIFI, in which case they're free.

Check your carrier while you're in the USA:
a. Get their toll-free (usually collect) number for customer support
b. Ask how much calls are for calls to and from the local district
c. Ask how much calls are to and from the USA
d. Ask if wifi calling is free
e. Ask if the data is free unlimited (or if you can buy bytes)
f. Ask if sms is unlimited & free to and from anyone
g. Ask if tethering & hotspotting are free
etc.

> With Android devices there are a bunch of SMS forwarding apps available.

What's a good one that you recommend for Android?

There are so many choices on Android, it's not funny!
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lvwind.smsforwarding>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.yas.freeSmsForwarder>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fettinger.p2elite>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lvwind.smsforwarding>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=si.ox.smsforwarder>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kerryn.autoforwardsms>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.gearandroid.phoneleashfree>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.smartapps.SMSCallDivert>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.socialproof.forwarder>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mysms.android.mirror>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.gyaoshi.smsforwarderl>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zhaocw.wozhuan3>
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jf.callforward>
etc.

This list went on and on and on and on and on and on...

> So I can leave a phone with my regular SIM card at home and bring
> another phone with me. Calls and texts will be forwarded to Google
> Voice. My Moto X4 has all the bands necessary for China (my Stylo 3 Plus
> does not).

Bummer on the Styloe 3 Plus! That's my current phone!
Good that you're checking bands.

> On iOS devices they don't allow SMS forwarding apps which is a real
> pain. They view SMS forwarding as a security risk, and they're probably
> right to some degree, considering two-factor authentication, but they
> should give the user the option to take that risk.

As you know, almost everything is harder to do on iOS, and so many things
are impossible to do on iOS (except to the functionality fabricators like
nospam), that it's not funny.

Googling for the tools on iOS for SMS forwarding ... many seem to be using
the Mac. Will you be bringing along a Mac?
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ios+sms+forwarding&ia=web>

For example:
<https://www.wired.com/2014/11/texts-ios-8-yosemite/>

If you're not going to be wholly ensconced inside the walled garden, this
implies that there is forwarding available for iOS (but a lot of times such
things fail due to the huge inherent restrictions of iOS)
<https://www.imyfone.com/backup-restore-iphone/enable-text-message-forwarding-on-ios-11/>
<https://www.techwalla.com/articles/is-there-an-iphone-application-that-allows-text-message-forwarding>
<https://www.seattletimes.com/business/technology/how-to-auto-forward-text-messages-from-an-iphone/>
etc.

I know you know iOS (and I know you know to ignore anything nospam says),
and I am telling you that I haven't done what you wish to do (at least not
in years), so all I can say is that it "seems" from the last search listed
above that you "can" forward, even with the Orwellian restrictions of iOS.

Have you tested out iOS to be sure that it's too restrictive to forward?

[sms]

On 8/13/2018 7:20 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:

<snip>

> It's pretty hard to shop for SIM cards in Shanghai. Even I let the locals
> do it for me.

Last time I was in Shanghai was in 2012, on vacation. It was super-easy
to buy a SIM card. We got them at the hostel we were staying at, and
they weren't marked up.

I have been to China at least six times, but the first time there were
no cell phones, and subsequent times before 2012 I was always with a
local person from whoever I was working for and didn't need a phone.

> There are Chinese VPNs. We had a thread on one of them recently.
> Pragmatic experience with Freegate, Ultrasurf, and Polarity
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/oHuik0iDqcA/7GJlVUiyCgAJ>

I have Pure VPN which will work. They tell you how to set it up
specifically for China. But the Hong Kong China Unicom SIM card
supposedly doesn't have the same restrictions as a SIM card that you buy
in mainland China.

> Plus, with some plans (like my T-Mobile defaults), you get free tethering,
> free hotspotting, free unlimited data and free unlimited SMS while outside
> the USA. Calls outside the USA are typically 20 cents a minute, unless you
> do them on WIFI, in which case they're free.

Yeah, I signed up for T-Mobile prior to a European trip a few years ago.
When we got back to the U.S. it was just so abysmal in California that I
would have had to get a divorce and my children would have disowned me
had I not gone back to a top-tier carrier. My son is in college in San
Diego and we drive down there a couple of times a year. You can really
tell how awful T-Mobile is on that drive down I-5, as well as in the
Sierras.

> What's a good one that you recommend for Android?

This one didn't ask for any permissions like access to contacts,
etc.:<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.lvwind.smsforwarding>.
It does what it's supposed to do, it's not rocket science.

> Bummer on the Styloe 3 Plus! That's my current phone!
> Good that you're checking bands.

The Stylo 3 lacks band 41 (TD-LTE), but it would still work on band 3.

China Unicom: 3, 41
China Telecom: 3, 41

Stylo 3 Plus: 1,2,3,4,5,7,12,20,66
Moto X4: 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,12,13,17,20,25,26,28,38,41,66
iPhone 8/8 Plus:
1,2,3,4,5,7,8,12,13,17,18,19,20,25,26,28,29,30,34,38,38,40,41,66

> As you know, almost everything is harder to do on iOS, and so many things
> are impossible to do on iOS (except to the functionality fabricators like
> nospam), that it's not funny.

There are apps for jail-broken iPhones that allow SMS forwarding. All
you can do for now is to forward iPhone texts to an iPad, iPod touch, or
Mac, but you can't forward them to another phone number (either to a
different phone or to Google Voice). As I said before, it's a legitimate
security concern, but it's a risk that is sometimes worth taking. The
carriers allow call forwarding but they don't allow SMS forwarding.

Remember, while the SMS forwarding apps are only on Android, it doesn't
really matter if you're an iPhone user because you're just leaving a
phone behind at home with your regular SIM card and the SMS forwarding
app running. You can buy any cheap Android phone and stick your normal
SIM into it. You can still take your iPhone with you. In fact you
probably wouldn't want to have to buy another iPhone just to leave
behind in order to send texts to either a Mac, iPad, or iPod Touch, or
to another phone number, when a $30 Android phone would work just fine.

Personally, I have a phone with a U.S. SIM with a different phone number
that's fine for the short domestic portion of the trip, as well as a
global SIM card that works fine but isn't cheap to use.

> Googling for the tools on iOS for SMS forwarding ... many seem to be using
> the Mac. Will you be bringing along a Mac?
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ios+sms+forwarding&ia=web>

I will be bringing an iPad Pro LTE, need to have my IT director be sure
it is set up for international roaming. But if I did have an iPhone I
would not want to leave it at home just to have it forward SMS to my
iPad Pro.

The motivation of nospam is certainly very strange. It goes way beyond
the typical fanboi behavior. Usually they'll just insist that anything
that isn't possible to do is something that no one would, or should,
ever want to do, but they don't claim that the impossible is possible.
None of the Apple aficionados that I know in real life are anything like
a fanboi.

Personally I like the minimalist design philosophy of Apple. I've been
in the new Apple "Spaceship" three times and the building, and the whole
campus, reflects that philosophy. Even the Apple bicycles: mixte frames,
one speed gearing that is low enough to prevent high speed riding. The
campus is so big that my host and I rode the bikes to our meeting, but
then on the way back a security person said that visitors aren't allowed
to ride the bikes. Next time I'll bring my Brompton. Even the coffee
machines are minimalist. The coffee is dispensed from a hidden system
under the counter that grinds the beans and dispenses the coffee through
a stainless steel spout, after you select one of three choices from an iPad.

[sms]

On 8/13/2018 6:46 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 13 Aug 2018 18:07:20 GMT, sms wrote:
>
>> On iOS devices they don't allow SMS forwarding apps which is a real
>> pain.
>
> This isn't for sms (who knows all this) ... this post is for android users.

Here's a video that shows how to do it. As he explains, you must have an
Android phone as the forwarding phone.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_3594705133&feature=iv&src_vid=iLjFfI7uepM&v=MNlxxDiAaA4>

[nospam]

In article <pkvb1o$a9j$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> All
> you can do for now is to forward iPhone texts to an iPad, iPod touch, or
> Mac, but you can't forward them to another phone number (either to a
> different phone or to Google Voice).

you might not be able to, but others can.

> As I said before, it's a legitimate
> security concern, but it's a risk that is sometimes worth taking. The
> carriers allow call forwarding but they don't allow SMS forwarding.

forwarding sms is indeed a risk, especially if one is foolish enough to
use sms for 2-factor.

[nospam]

In article <pkvb6k$a9j$2...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> Here's a video that shows how to do it. As he explains, you must have an
> Android phone as the forwarding phone.

that's one way, but not the only way, and an android phone is not
required.

[Chris in Makati]

On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 18:07:20 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>So I started to figure out how I could forward my texts and voice calls
>to my Google Voice number so I can use the SIM card, perhaps with a VPN
>(but it's a Hong Kong SIM so Google, Facebook, Youtube, are not blocked
>according to reviews on Amazon).

Google and Facebook are blocked in China. The fact that you're using a
roaming SIM card from Hong Kong doesn't change that. You can sometimes
get around it by using a VPN, but even that doesn't always work in
China.

[Chris in Makati]

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 01:46:30 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

>What nospam constantly claims is that everything can be done on iOS, but,
>not surprisingly, he never knows how to do anything on iOS.
>
>All he is is talk but no references, no proof, no backing up claims.
>Guys like nospam have proven that their entire belief system is a sham.
>
>If you pin him down, he lies and says he told you how (when he didn't).
>If you continue to pin him down, he'll say he told you but you didn't do
>it.

Yup. It's a consistent pattern of behaviour we've seen over and over
again with him. He's been doing it for years.

[nospam]

In article <ujg6nd1ilbiu2dshi...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >What nospam constantly claims is that everything can be done on iOS, but,
> >not surprisingly, he never knows how to do anything on iOS.
> >
> >All he is is talk but no references, no proof, no backing up claims.
> >Guys like nospam have proven that their entire belief system is a sham.
> >
> >If you pin him down, he lies and says he told you how (when he didn't).
> >If you continue to pin him down, he'll say he told you but you didn't do
> >it.
>
> Yup. It's a consistent pattern of behaviour we've seen over and over
> again with him. He's been doing it for years.

nope. i *always* back up what i claim with numerous references.

i do get tired of repeating myself to trolls, who continually ignore
numerous explanations and would rather trot out the same old bullshit.

[sms]

The other users of the Hong Kong SIM said that all of that works because
the servers it connects to are in Hong Kong and you have a Hong Kong IP
address. These reviews were recent. Apparently it's the same for
international roaming on a U.S. carrier though this can be very
expensive, depending on the carrier.

It's a lot harder to bypass the firewall restrictions if you're using a
Wi-Fi or hardwired connection at your hotel. Last time I was in China,
to use Facebook with the hotel's WI-Fi required the use of a VPN
(PrivateVPN), but it worked fine. Now the number of VPNs that still work
in China has shrunk considerably, but there are still at least three
that appear to still be working.

[sms]

On 8/14/2018 2:10 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> Yup. It's a consistent pattern of behaviour we've seen over and over
> again with him. He's been doing it for years.

It's very odd. And note that he never backs up anything he claims with
detailed information, citations, or references.

In this case he insists that SMS forwarding is possible, but obviously
he never explains how it can be done.

Since a method to forward SMS to another device, or to e-mail, is a
fairly common request, it would be enormously helpful if he would share
how to do this, if in fact the capability exists. There may be some
wonderfully secret workaround that no one else knows about.

[nospam]

In article <pkvngc$naf$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> It's very odd. And note that he never backs up anything he claims with
> detailed information, citations, or references.

false. i always back up what i say, and with numerous references.

you, on the other hand, do not, or your 'citations' are outdated or
themselves bogus.

> In this case he insists that SMS forwarding is possible, but obviously
> he never explains how it can be done.

i've explained it in the past, plus it's not that difficult to figure
it out, at least for those without an agenda.

you've repeatedly demonstrated that you aren't interested in actual
solutions and would rather repeatedly spew the same old bullshit.

> Since a method to forward SMS to another device, or to e-mail, is a
> fairly common request,

nonsense. forwarding sms is not common at all. there is no reason to do
so. just take the phone *with* *you* wherever you go.

t-mobile even offers *free* international texts, so there's no
additional cost, and since it's roaming, there *can't* be any issue
with coverage (not that there is in the usa, another one of your lies).

as usual, you're creating a problem that does not exist and then
blaming apple for not allowing your carefully crafted convoluted
solution which is designed so it *can't* work, ignoring all other
options that *do* work.

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 16:27:26 GMT, nospam wrote:

> false. i always back up what i say, and with numerous references.

It's clear to all but to nospam himself that he never backs up anything.
That's because everything he says is merely made up.

He has zero credibility.
Everything he says is a game to him - it's all just made up.

He's a child. Not an adult.
Everything he posts proves that is a fact.

Why does nospam constantly prove that all he can do, is play his silly fifth-grade games?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/irbuhYwQz9g/rVcddlu0AgAJ>

[sms]

On 8/13/2018 7:20 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:

> Have you tested out iOS to be sure that it's too restrictive to forward?

No. I will bring the iPad with international roaming enabled. I'll also
get 30 days of one of the three VPN services that are supposed to still
work in China.

If it doesn't work it's not the end of the world for only five days.
I'll be so busy that I won't have much time for anything else anyway.

I'll also have an Android phone with the China Unicom SIM and my
Knowroaming SIM which will work there but is expensive.

Last time I was in China we bought four China Unicom voice/text only SIM
cards and I used the Wi-Fi on my Netbook, with a VPN. Since we were on
our own, not on a tour, having phones was really useful since we didn't
all always want to do the same thing.

What I also found was that some hotels had hard-wire Ethernet
connections but no Wi-Fi. Fortunately, the Netbook had an 100BaseT
Ethernet connection, plus I had brought along a portable router.

The China Unicom Hong Kong SIM also allows hotspots so I should be okay.
I do want to be able to retrieve texts from my regular phone, so
hopefully I'll be able to get onto Gmail somehow. Sometimes the nicer
hotels don't have the Great Firewall and I think they will put us up in
a good hotel.

(removing misc.phone.mobile.iphone so hopefully our favorite troll won't
chime in).

[sms]

On 8/14/2018 4:56 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 14 Aug 2018 16:27:26 GMT, nospam wrote:
>
>> false. i always back up what i say, and with numerous references.
>
> It's clear to all but to nospam himself that he never backs up anything.
> That's because everything he says is merely made up.

Actually he once did post something that was true. That was that
Sunnyvale Costco (Mountain View and Santa Clara as well) have NFC
equipped credit card readers that can accept both Apple Pay and Google
Pay. I was in southern California two weeks ago and the Costco I went
into there (Chino Hills) did not have Tap and Pay working yet.

[Chris]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> The China Unicom Hong Kong SIM also allows hotspots so I should be okay.
> I do want to be able to retrieve texts from my regular phone, so
> hopefully I'll be able to get onto Gmail somehow. Sometimes the nicer
> hotels don't have the Great Firewall and I think they will put us up in
> a good hotel.

If all you want texts for is to access gmail with 2FA then you should
consider an authenticator app. It's more secure and doesn't even require a
data connection. There are several available and I've started using authy.
Or a more manual option is to download a set of back-up codes from Google.

> (removing misc.phone.mobile.iphone so hopefully our favorite troll won't
> chime in).

He's everywhere :( just killfile him.

[Chris in Makati]

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 16:01:39 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/14/2018 2:10 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 18:07:20 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So I started to figure out how I could forward my texts and voice calls
>>> to my Google Voice number so I can use the SIM card, perhaps with a VPN
>>> (but it's a Hong Kong SIM so Google, Facebook, Youtube, are not blocked
>>> according to reviews on Amazon).
>>
>> Google and Facebook are blocked in China. The fact that you're using a
>> roaming SIM card from Hong Kong doesn't change that. You can sometimes
>> get around it by using a VPN, but even that doesn't always work in
>> China.
>
>The other users of the Hong Kong SIM said that all of that works because
>the servers it connects to are in Hong Kong and you have a Hong Kong IP
>address. These reviews were recent. Apparently it's the same for
>international roaming on a U.S. carrier though this can be very
>expensive, depending on the carrier.

Perhaps it varies, depending on which Hong Kong network the SIM is
from, but that wasn't my experience. I was using a Travel SIM from
Birdie Mobile in Hong Kong.

>It's a lot harder to bypass the firewall restrictions if you're using a
>Wi-Fi or hardwired connection at your hotel. Last time I was in China,
>to use Facebook with the hotel's WI-Fi required the use of a VPN
>(PrivateVPN), but it worked fine. Now the number of VPNs that still work
>in China has shrunk considerably, but there are still at least three
>that appear to still be working.

That's what I found. I use NordVPN, and some of the servers I
connected to would work and some wouldn't. Also, a particular server
might work one day and not the next, so you just have to keep
reconnecting until you find one that works again.

[sms]

On 8/15/2018 12:45 AM, Chris wrote:

<snip>

> He's everywhere :( just killfile him.

I have him filtered out but others keep responding to him. And my
original post was only to comp.mobile.android, but "Arlen Holder"
cross-posted it to misc.phone.mobile.iphone just to annoy "nospam"
because I mentioned that SMS forwarding isn't possible with iPhones.

[nospam]

In article <pl1j5d$35a$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> because I mentioned that SMS forwarding isn't possible with iPhones.

and i mentioned that it is.

<https://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2014/10/smsforwarding.jpg>

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 18:08:21 GMT, sms wrote:

> Actually he once did post something that was true. That was that
> Sunnyvale Costco (Mountain View and Santa Clara as well) have NFC
> equipped credit card readers that can accept both Apple Pay and Google
> Pay. I was in southern California two weeks ago and the Costco I went
> into there (Chino Hills) did not have Tap and Pay working yet.

I agree that of all the Apple Apologists, nospam is right more than they
are, but they're all wrong far (far) more often than they are right.

Jolly Roger is almost always wrong (if not always wrong).
I'd guess nospam is wrong 19 out of 20 times.
The rest, Lewis, BK@OnRamp, etc., are wrong 20 out of 20 times.
Savageduck is an anomoly as he's just an idiot - but he's not malicious
like the rest are.

For example, if someone (like Wade Garrett or Ant perhaps) were to ask a
valid question, of that bunch, only Savageduck would *try* to provide a
valid answer.

Both nospam and Jolly Roger would unhelpfully fabricate entirely fictional
functionality, in a sadistic approach that sends the poor iOS user on wild
goose chases that have no hope of success.

If you or especially I were to post anything, they *hate* the facts that we
bring up, so they will do *anything* they can to cloud the facts with their
meaningless drivel (particularly their unilateral pronouncements that iOS
can do whatever it is that iOS just can't possibly do).

Luckily, you and I know that they have almost zero credibility - where - I
agree with you - if nospam wants to be accurate - he *can* be.

Of that entire bunch, the only one who is ever helpful is Savageduck, but
most of the time Savageduck is just an utter moron (based on the garbage he
posts).

Of that bunch, only nospam has any knowledge - but since he's wrong 19 out
of 20 times, it's not all that useful to anyone. (It's amazing that he
cares not about his credibility - which is one reason I know he has no
formal education - because credibility is important to educated adults).

The rest, i.e., Jolly Roger, Lewis, BK@onRamp, etc., are worthless in all
respects. If they all died instantly - the world would become a better
place simply by their absence. That's how worthless they are.

Jolly Roger is nice though - as I love when he posts as he has the mind of
the average iOS user - which is very insightful indeed.

[sms]

On 8/14/2018 4:56 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:

> On 14 Aug 2018 16:27:26 GMT, nospam wrote:
>
>> false. i always back up what i say, and with numerous references.
>
> It's clear to all but to nospam himself that he never backs up anything.
> That's because everything he says is merely made up.
>
> He has zero credibility.
> Everything he says is a game to him - it's all just made up.

What you _can_ do on an iPhone is to set things up so you read your text
messages on a Mac, iPad, iPod Touch, or another iPhone, with data
access, while signed into the same AppleID. This is much less useful
than text forwarding when traveling, but more secure. It's one more
example of security versus functionality. Apple almost always chooses
security, and with good reason, I wasn't knocking them for this, just
pointing out that you can only do this with Android.

The other thing I've done with SMS forwarding is when I have purchased a
prepaid SIM card in a foreign country and want SMS forwarded to that
phone number, is to set up a Gmail filter to forward all the incoming
text messages to an SMS to e-mail gateway, but not all wireless carriers
have SMS gateways because of "caller pays" (or texter pays). See
<https://www.opentextingonline.com/emailtotext.aspx> for a list of Gateways.

A long time ago I prepared a document on all this. I updated it
recently. See
<https://docs.google.com/document/d/16Iv7dUGsrLNaoykWhJ9cW7PwSTFNRHQPC2hQ8p4hL4E>

Speaking only for myself.

[sms]

On 8/13/2018 7:20 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:

>> So I can leave a phone with my regular SIM card at home and bring
>> another phone with me. Calls and texts will be forwarded to Google
>> Voice. My Moto X4 has all the bands necessary for China (my Stylo 3 Plus
>> does not).
>
> Bummer on the Styloe 3 Plus! That's my current phone!
> Good that you're checking bands.

What's really useful in Europe and Asia are dual-SIM phones. They're
extremely common there, but not generally sold in the U.S., though
BHPhoto sells a bunch of them.

The Samsung Galaxy A7 was ideal since it had two SIM slots, plus a
MicroSD card slot, but the A8 now shares the second slot between a SIM
card and a MicroSD card slot.

Apple is rumored to finally be releasing a dual-SIM iPhone for Europe
and Asia
<https://9to5mac.com/2018/07/30/ios-12-dual-sim-support-future-iphones/>:

"A component of the system responsible for the generation of diagnostic
reports includes new references to “second SIM status” and a “second SIM
tray status”. Another component references a “dual sim device”. Those
references are clearly an indication that iOS is being updated to run in
a future device with support for two SIM cards, as seen in the
screenshot below. The mention of a “second sim tray” indicates it would
in fact have two physical SIM cards instead of a regular one and an
e-SIM as the second.

A dual-SIM card option for the larger iPhone model would allow users to
switch between different carrier plans without having to swap out SIM
cards. The feature is also important for European and Asian users who
routinely visit multiple countries."

Apple has lost a lot of sales due to the lack of a dual-SIM model, and
this would address that concern.

[Lewis]

In message <plap1v$bm5$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/13/2018 7:20 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:

>>> So I can leave a phone with my regular SIM card at home and bring
>>> another phone with me. Calls and texts will be forwarded to Google
>>> Voice. My Moto X4 has all the bands necessary for China (my Stylo 3 Plus
>>> does not).
>>
>> Bummer on the Styloe 3 Plus! That's my current phone!
>> Good that you're checking bands.

> What's really useful in Europe and Asia are dual-SIM phones. They're
> extremely common there, but not generally sold in the U.S., though
> BHPhoto sells a bunch of them.

I have a number of friends in Europe and not a single one of them has
ever had (or wanted) a dual-sim phone. Nearly half of them have never
*heard* of a dual-sim phone being available in their countries.

I have friends in Thailand and Japan, who also have never had a dual-sim
phone.

It is a niche, and a very very small niche.

> Apple is rumored to finally be releasing a dual-SIM iPhone for Europe
> and Asia

Rumors are nothing but rumors. If Apple DOES do a dual SIM phone it will
almost certainly be unique to China.

> Apple has lost a lot of sales due to the lack of a dual-SIM model, and
> this would address that concern.

Absurd bullshit.

--
Is a vegetarian permitted to eat animal crackers?

[sms]

On 8/18/2018 8:43 PM, sms wrote:

> What's really useful in Europe and Asia are dual-SIM phones. They're
> extremely common there, but not generally sold in the U.S., though
> BHPhoto sells a bunch of them.

Here's a good article on dual SIM phones:
<https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/best-dual-sim-phones/>.

"Using a device with two SIM cards allows you to remain connected to two
mobile networks at once and receive calls on both numbers, or maintain
service if you move from one coverage zone to another. For that reason,
dual-SIM capabilities are a selling point in mainland Europe and Asia —
though, as you might expect, few devices sold outside of those regions
support the feature."

Note that what you won't find, because these are phones primarily for
Europe and Asia, is CDMA support for Sprint or Verizon (or the handful
or other carriers in the world still operating CDMA voice networks).

For an iPhone, you'll have to wait a bit longer, and it's a virtual
certainty that any dual-SIM model, should the rumors prove true, will
not be sold in the U.S. see
<https://www.macrumors.com/2018/08/03/dual-sim-dual-standby-china-6-1-inch-iphone-2018/>
and <21st Century Business Herald>. China-only makes sense because
that's the place where the lack of a dual-SIM model has most affected
sales. If you ever rode a train going from China to Hong Kong, prior to
dual-SIM phones, as the train stops at the border you see a large number
of people swapping SIMs.

[Arlen Holder]

On 19 Aug 2018 13:02:58 GMT, Lewis wrote:

> I have a number of friends in Europe and not a single one of them has
> ever had (or wanted) a dual-sim phone. Nearly half of them have never
> *heard* of a dual-sim phone being available in their countries.

Hi sms,
I fully agree with you that a dual-SIM phone would be very useful.

Well-known Apple Apologists like Lewis can't fathom the utility - but -
remember - he's the type that would enthuse endlessly about a gold colored
iPhone - so anything Lewis says is just ignorant rubbish.

For the Apple Apologists like Lewis, a phone is just a mere stylish toy.

What I do, to "approach" the usefulness of dual-SIM phones sans the dual
SIMs, is use the freeware line replicators, such as TextNow or Talkatone
(Sideline went to the dark side).

Neither is anywhere nearly as nice as having a dual SIM though.

[Frank Slootweg]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <plap1v$bm5$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > On 8/13/2018 7:20 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
>
> >>> So I can leave a phone with my regular SIM card at home and bring
> >>> another phone with me. Calls and texts will be forwarded to Google
> >>> Voice. My Moto X4 has all the bands necessary for China (my Stylo 3 Plus
> >>> does not).
> >>
> >> Bummer on the Styloe 3 Plus! That's my current phone!
> >> Good that you're checking bands.
>
> > What's really useful in Europe and Asia are dual-SIM phones. They're
> > extremely common there, but not generally sold in the U.S., though
> > BHPhoto sells a bunch of them.
>
> I have a number of friends in Europe and not a single one of them has
> ever had (or wanted) a dual-sim phone. Nearly half of them have never
> *heard* of a dual-sim phone being available in their countries.
>
> I have friends in Thailand and Japan, who also have never had a dual-sim
> phone.
>
> It is a niche, and a very very small niche.

As the Apple reference says:

"The feature is also important for European and Asian users who
routinely visit multiple countries."

I.e. it's for people who visit multiple countries in different areas
of the world.

Example:

I live in The Netherlands and indeed do no need a dual-SIM phone for
use in my country nor in most other European countries, because I can
use my Dutch SIM in most other European countries, without extra roaming
costs. (Hurah, for the EU! :-)).

But I also frequently travel to/in Australia. For that, a dual-SIM
phone would be handy, because my Dutch SIM would incur very high roaming
costs (some USD 3/minute and even more per MB). So, I use an *extra*
phone, with an Australian SIM.

[sms]

On 8/19/2018 10:24 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> But I also frequently travel to/in Australia. For that, a dual-SIM
> phone would be handy, because my Dutch SIM would incur very high roaming
> costs (some USD 3/minute and even more per MB). So, I use an *extra*
> phone, with an Australian SIM.

True, for people that never travel internationally a dual-SIM phone is
of little use. But when the alternative is carrying two separate phones,
or swapping SIMs, the dual SIM is very nice to have. In China and
Europe, dual-SIM phones are quite popular.

[sms]

On 8/19/2018 8:41 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:

<snip>

> Neither is anywhere nearly as nice as having a dual SIM though.

<https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2018/07/05/apple-iphone-new-iphone-x-x2-se2-x-plus-specs-design-release-date-price-cost/#121ced5c4598>

"While dual sim phones have been hugely popular in Asia for years, Apple
has long resisted the pull until now. Kuo’s report says Apple will
introduce dual-sim dual-standby (DSDS) functionality for the iPhone X
Plus (no word on other models) allowing users to run two networks
simultaneously.

For some, this will be a pointless feature but for many the option to
keep work and home sims, or home and foreign sims when travelling, in
the same phone could prove a deal maker."


However there are other reasons besides foreign travel for dual-SIM
phones. Separating personal and business phone numbers, but carrying
only one phone, would be really nice for a LOT of people in the U.S. as
well. I know that my wife carries her work iPhone and her Android
personal phone. That's two phones to keep charged and to hassle with,
when if the one phone could have two SIMs she could pay for her personal
line but still use the iPhone. I also have to carry two phones.

For my wife, she has a Verizon iPhone so the alleged Chinese dual-SIM
iPhone would not be of much use even if she could get one.

[nospam]

In article <plcn2b$idj$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> However there are other reasons besides foreign travel for dual-SIM
> phones. Separating personal and business phone numbers, but carrying
> only one phone, would be really nice for a LOT of people in the U.S. as
> well.

physically separate work & personal phones are normally required, and
not just for phones either.

combining both would mean personal apps could access work data and vice
versa, which would be bad. work phones are also normally managed by the
employer and the second sim slot would probably be disabled (or locked
to a second work-related sim).

the reality is that the best selling phones are single-sim. dual-sim
phones are a special use case and many phone makers do not make them,
including the google pixel.

[Arlen Holder]

On 19 Aug 2018 14:11:14 GMT, sms wrote:

> True, for people that never travel internationally a dual-SIM phone is
> of little use. But when the alternative is carrying two separate phones,
> or swapping SIMs, the dual SIM is very nice to have. In China and
> Europe, dual-SIM phones are quite popular.

Pragmatically speaking...

If dual sim is "of little use", how do sideline, textnow, talkatone, etc.,
make their money?

I think anyone might want to separate business and personal calls.

You can even separate personal calls from the kinds of calls you get
whenever you have to sign up for something, like a Costco card or whatever
(and then you get inundated with Costco calls for free travel vouchers).

[Arlen Holder]

On 19 Aug 2018 15:38:59 GMT, nospam wrote:

> combining both would mean personal apps could access work data and vice
> versa, which would be bad.

Since Android users are on this thread, it is important to note that the
newer Android versions have the ability to have various logins, much like
Windows computers do.

I have never tried this feature - so I can't say whether it would help keep
personal data and work data separate.

I will say it's a difficult task, as when I was working, the company
insisted on paying for not only the phone but also the phone bill, such
that they "controlled" the phone more so than I did.

They installed apps on it - where to this day - I have no idea what they
installed - but that was years ago and things are likely very different now
in terms of seeing and knowing what they did to "spy" on the employees.

In summary though, it _may_ be the case that the ability of Android to
allow multiple users can protect the data.

Do others have experience using Android's multiple login features?

[Arlen Holder]

On 19 Aug 2018 14:22:16 GMT, sms wrote:

> However there are other reasons besides foreign travel for dual-SIM
> phones.

While Lewis, a canonical Apple Apologist, clearly has no comprehension of
why anyone would want dual SIMs ... I agree with you that keeping your work
and personal calls separate is a good reason for wanting two numbers within
the same phone ... as is the ability to travel on a temporary SIM card, I
agree.

[sms]

On 8/19/2018 7:06 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> On 19 Aug 2018 15:38:59 GMT, nospam wrote:
>
>> combining both would mean personal apps could access work data and vice
>> versa, which would be bad.
>
> Since Android users are on this thread, it is important to note that the
> newer Android versions have the ability to have various logins, much like
> Windows computers do.

Yes, that is a key difference. On Android you can separate both the
applications that each user has access to, as well as the data they can
see. iOS does not have that capability, except for iPads that are
enrolled in the Education Deployment Plan.

For a secure dual-SIM setup, you'd have to have corporate accounts be
able to limit access to certain apps and data.

The current major use of dual-SIM card phones is for people that travel
internationally and want to use a lower cost service in a foreign
country, but still not miss calls or texts on their primary number.

"Back in the olden days," pre-SIM, many dumb phones had dual or
multi-NAM capability. This was for users that wanted to combine home and
work phone numbers on one phone, or have multiple numbers on one phone
for some other reason, but all numbers had to be on the same carrier,
and the same account at that carrier.

[nospam]

In article <plei3e$s2d$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> The current major use of dual-SIM card phones is for people that travel
> internationally and want to use a lower cost service in a foreign
> country, but still not miss calls or texts on their primary number.

which would incur roaming charges, so no.

and they don't need a second sim to do that. simply turn off data
roaming and use wifi. calls and text will still work.

[Arlen Holder]

On 20 Aug 2018 07:14:20 GMT, nospam wrote:

> which would incur roaming charges, so no.
>
> and they don't need a second sim to do that. simply turn off data
> roaming and use wifi. calls and text will still work.

You always find the *worst* comparisons, nospam, to justify your thinking.

It's a key trait of you Apple Apologists to find the *worst* comparisons.

In the USA, I have no romaing chargers, and I travel to Europe every year,
and I don't incur _any_ roaming charges whatsoever there either, whether
for local cellular calls or USA cellular calls, in either direction.

All cellular calls to and from my phone over the local networks are at the
flat rate of 20 cents per minute while I'm in Europe (using my USA plan).

Any fool can easily find a lousy cellular plan that incurs roaming charges.
So, yet again, you can only cherry pick the *worst* setup to justify your
arguments.

[Chris in Makati]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 18:38:59 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

The more recent Samsung phones are dual-SIM, and are well up in the
list of "best selling phones".

[Chris in Makati]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:14:20 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

We don't want to turn off data because we need network access wherever
we are. We don't want to wait until we can find a place with free
wifi.

And world travelers don't need someone who has probably never left his
home country telling us how we should muddle through with workarounds
that don't provide adequate solutions.

[Chris in Makati]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 18:38:59 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <plcn2b$idj$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
><scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> However there are other reasons besides foreign travel for dual-SIM
>> phones. Separating personal and business phone numbers, but carrying
>> only one phone, would be really nice for a LOT of people in the U.S. as
>> well.
>
>physically separate work & personal phones are normally required, and
>not just for phones either.
>
>combining both would mean personal apps could access work data and vice
>versa, which would be bad. work phones are also normally managed by the
>employer and the second sim slot would probably be disabled (or locked
>to a second work-related sim).

Then turn off data for the whichever SIM you don't want to access
data.

You can invent as many reasons as you want for not having a dual-SIM
phone, but the fact is that huge numbers of people have good uses for
them. Maybe not in the US, but America has always been way behind the
curve with mobile phone usage and is only just starting to catch up.

[nospam]

In article <vlqlnddj0mbini8n3...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >
> >the reality is that the best selling phones are single-sim. dual-sim
> >phones are a special use case and many phone makers do not make them,
> >including the google pixel.
>
> The more recent Samsung phones are dual-SIM, and are well up in the
> list of "best selling phones".

nope. the samsung galaxy s9, note and other models sold in the usa and
other places, where a *significant* number of phones are sold, are
single-sim.

the dual-sim versions are not sold everywhere because its not needed by
most people.

[nospam]

In article <2sqlnddmeiorijp58...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> However there are other reasons besides foreign travel for dual-SIM
> >> phones. Separating personal and business phone numbers, but carrying
> >> only one phone, would be really nice for a LOT of people in the U.S. as
> >> well.
> >
> >physically separate work & personal phones are normally required, and
> >not just for phones either.
> >
> >combining both would mean personal apps could access work data and vice
> >versa, which would be bad. work phones are also normally managed by the
> >employer and the second sim slot would probably be disabled (or locked
> >to a second work-related sim).
>
> Then turn off data for the whichever SIM you don't want to access
> data.

that won't prevent cross-pollination of data.

do you really want your employer having access to your personal call
and text history? your photos?

do you think your employer wants your friends and family to have access
to work-related data? in many cases, employees are legally bound to
make sure anything work-related stays private.

and as i said, if the phone is managed, it's not possible.

> You can invent as many reasons as you want for not having a dual-SIM
> phone, but the fact is that huge numbers of people have good uses for
> them. Maybe not in the US, but America has always been way behind the
> curve with mobile phone usage and is only just starting to catch up.

the usa is not behind at all. for example, 5g is already in testing,
with deployments starting in a few months.

the reality is that dual-sim phones are a special use case, one which
is not needed anywhere near as much as it once was. it's most common in
emerging markets, where the technology is very behind.

[nospam]

In article <86rlndls426psdf1l...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> The current major use of dual-SIM card phones is for people that travel
> >> internationally and want to use a lower cost service in a foreign
> >> country, but still not miss calls or texts on their primary number.
> >
> >which would incur roaming charges, so no.
> >
> >and they don't need a second sim to do that. simply turn off data
> >roaming and use wifi. calls and text will still work.
>
> We don't want to turn off data because we need network access wherever
> we are.

i didn't say turn off data. i said turn off data *roaming* to avoid
roaming fees.

> We don't want to wait until we can find a place with free
> wifi.

what waiting? wifi is nearly everywhere.

about the only place it isn't is while driving, when you shouldn't be
using your phone anyway, and any navigation apps don't need wifi or
cellular.

[Frank Slootweg]

Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

+1 As a famous poster said: "You [nospam] *really* should get out more!"

Not to mention that "calls and text will still work [with wifi]" is
BS, because it doesn't mention what additional stuff/setup is required
to let SMS and phone calls work via Wi-Fi. And some of that 'stuff'
isn't available worldwide.

But heh, if it works in nospam's (US) city dweller's bubble, it can't
be a problem, can it!?

[nospam]

In article <plf5d8...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg

<th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > >> The current major use of dual-SIM card phones is for people that travel
> > >> internationally and want to use a lower cost service in a foreign
> > >> country, but still not miss calls or texts on their primary number.
> > >
> > >which would incur roaming charges, so no.
> > >
> > >and they don't need a second sim to do that. simply turn off data
> > >roaming and use wifi. calls and text will still work.
> >
> > We don't want to turn off data because we need network access wherever
> > we are. We don't want to wait until we can find a place with free
> > wifi.
> >
> > And world travelers don't need someone who has probably never left his
> > home country telling us how we should muddle through with workarounds
> > that don't provide adequate solutions.
>
> +1 As a famous poster said: "You [nospam] *really* should get out more!"
>
> Not to mention that "calls and text will still work [with wifi]" is
> BS, because it doesn't mention what additional stuff/setup is required
> to let SMS and phone calls work via Wi-Fi. And some of that 'stuff'
> isn't available worldwide.

i didn't say calls and texts work with wifi. i said disable data
roaming, leaving only calls and texts via the original sim.

[sms]

On 8/20/2018 9:36 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> We don't want to turn off data because we need network access wherever
> we are. We don't want to wait until we can find a place with free
> wifi.

Correct. What you want to do is to see incoming calls while roaming
internationally, then call the number back using a local SIM card.

The other good alternative is, before you leave, forward your U.S.
number through, to a service like Localphone, Then when you know your
foreign SIM phone number, log onto Localphone and forward the Localphone
number to your local SIM number.

> And world travelers don't need someone who has probably never left his
> home country telling us how we should muddle through with workarounds
> that don't provide adequate solutions.

True. Exceedingly foolish suggestions, from people that lack adequate
knowledge, seem to be routine for the poster you are referring to!

[sms]

On 8/20/2018 9:36 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> The more recent Samsung phones are dual-SIM, and are well up in the
> list of "best selling phones".

True, but the U.S. versions are single SIM. The U.S. carriers demand
single SIM phones, for obvious reasons.

If you're on AT&T, and to a lesser extent T-Mobile, you can purchase
dual-SIM phones that will work in the U.S. as well (lacking only
T-Mobile's latest band). But for Sprint or Verizon, you're out of luck
until CDMA is decommissioned.

For a dual-SIM phone right now, I'd buy the Samsung Galaxy A8+,
SM-A730F/DS 64GB. <https://www.ebay.com/itm/192432067618>. Since it
doesn't have a warranty in the U.S. I suppose I'd opt for the
Squaretrade warranty. BHPhoto has the 32GB version
<https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1390094-REG>, and they warranty
the phone themselves, but since Samsung removed the separate MicroSD
card slot, and now shares it with the second SIM slot, I would want the
64GB version. There are some very small USB-C flash drives available if
you really need more than 64GB while using two SIM cards.

[nospam]

In article <plf5k6$vnq$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > The more recent Samsung phones are dual-SIM, and are well up in the
> > list of "best selling phones".
>
> True, but the U.S. versions are single SIM. The U.S. carriers demand
> single SIM phones, for obvious reasons.

the usa is a major market and it's not just the usa where single-sim
phones are sold.

according to the link below, australia, canada, usa, japan, united
kingdom, sweden are all under 10%, and under 16% if you include france
and germany. only in india is it a majority.

<https://deviceatlas.com/blog/dual-sim-smartphone-usage-2017>

> If you're on AT&T, and to a lesser extent T-Mobile, you can purchase
> dual-SIM phones that will work in the U.S. as well (lacking only
> T-Mobile's latest band). But for Sprint or Verizon, you're out of luck
> until CDMA is decommissioned.

false. cdma is a fallback and rarely used anymore. it's being
decommissioned *because* it's been replaced.

[Chris in Makati]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:33:22 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <vlqlnddj0mbini8n3...@4ax.com>, Chris in
>Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >
>> >the reality is that the best selling phones are single-sim. dual-sim
>> >phones are a special use case and many phone makers do not make them,
>> >including the google pixel.
>>
>> The more recent Samsung phones are dual-SIM, and are well up in the
>> list of "best selling phones".
>
>nope. the samsung galaxy s9, note and other models sold in the usa and
>other places, where a *significant* number of phones are sold, are
>single-sim.

There's more to the world than just the US. The US represents less
than 15% of smartphone users in the world.

The Samsung S9 and many other top end phones in the rest of the world
is comes in a dual SIM version.

[Chris in Makati]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:33:23 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <86rlndls426psdf1l...@4ax.com>, Chris in
>Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >> The current major use of dual-SIM card phones is for people that travel
>> >> internationally and want to use a lower cost service in a foreign
>> >> country, but still not miss calls or texts on their primary number.
>> >
>> >which would incur roaming charges, so no.
>> >
>> >and they don't need a second sim to do that. simply turn off data
>> >roaming and use wifi. calls and text will still work.
>>
>> We don't want to turn off data because we need network access wherever
>> we are.
>
>i didn't say turn off data. i said turn off data *roaming* to avoid
>roaming fees.
>
>> We don't want to wait until we can find a place with free
>> wifi.
>
>what waiting? wifi is nearly everywhere.

You need to get out and travel the world more, then you'll have a
better idea of reality outside of your own back yard.

Wifi covers only a tiny proportion of the land area of the world, and
is limited to just a few metres from the service provider. Even then
many hotspots are password restricted and you wouldn't have ready
access to it. Wifi most certainly isn't "nearly everywhere" or
anything remotely close to it, especially in rural and residential
areas.

Serious users need "always on" internet connectivity and the only way
to achieve that is to have access to mobile data.

[Chris in Makati]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 12:42:58 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/20/2018 9:36 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> The more recent Samsung phones are dual-SIM, and are well up in the
>> list of "best selling phones".
>
>True, but the U.S. versions are single SIM. The U.S. carriers demand
>single SIM phones, for obvious reasons.

That's right. The main reason there are not more dual-SIM phones
around is because the networks don't like them. A large proportion of
phones are sold with subsidies through the networks, and the last
thing they want is for their customers to have the ability of using
their subsidised phone on a competitor's network.

[nospam]

In article <5u8mnd5d0nc7ruhu4...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >True, but the U.S. versions are single SIM. The U.S. carriers demand
> >single SIM phones, for obvious reasons.
>
> That's right. The main reason there are not more dual-SIM phones
> around is because the networks don't like them. A large proportion of
> phones are sold with subsidies through the networks, and the last
> thing they want is for their customers to have the ability of using
> their subsidised phone on a competitor's network.

exactly.

the problem is with the carriers, not apple.

apple has long wanted to switch to e-sims, which would allow the user
to switch among many carriers without needing *any* sim and not just
two as with a dual-sim. the carriers want no part of that and are
actually being investigated for collusion:

<https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/at-t-verizon-under-doj-antitrus
t-investigation-for-possible-esim-collusion-report-says>
According to a number of new reports, the U.S. Department of Justice
is conducting an antitrust investigation into the nation's four
largest wireless carriers, with a focus on AT&T and Verizon as well
as the GSMA, about possible collusion over eSIM technology.
Specifically, the agency is looking at whether the companies worked
together to prevent broad adoption of the technology, which would
allow customers to more easily switch carriers.

ipads have had either a physical apple sim or an e-sim (in addition to
a standard sim), and again, the carriers are fighting it. verizon
doesn't support it, requiring users to get a verizon sim, and at&t will
lock an apple sim to at&t if activated.

the future is not dual-sim, but rather e-sim.

the google pixel has an e-sim, but the carriers are still fighting it.
currently, it's only supported on google's own project fi.
<https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/4/16424740/google-pixel-2-xl-esim-tech
nology-project-fi-first-ever>
Youąll be able to use Googleąs newest smartphones, the Pixel 2 and
Pixel 2 XL, without needing to pop in a SIM card, the company
announced today. As long as youąre a Project Fi subscriber, Google
will use the devicesą built-in eSIMs to authenticate your cellular
account.
...
Switching SIM cards can be quite obnoxious, especially if you happen
to be moving between devices regularly, either out of habit or for
work, and happen to need SIM adapters to make it all work. So itąs
nice to see Google embracing eSIM tech on its own network, a process
it says itąs piloting with Pixel and Fi for now. Down the line, łWe
look forward to sharing what we learn and working together with
industry partners to encourage more widespread adoption,˛ Xi writes.
A SIM-less future would be nice indeed.

[nospam]

In article <b18mndh577ppmgsds...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> >the reality is that the best selling phones are single-sim. dual-sim
> >> >phones are a special use case and many phone makers do not make them,
> >> >including the google pixel.
> >>
> >> The more recent Samsung phones are dual-SIM, and are well up in the
> >> list of "best selling phones".
> >
> >nope. the samsung galaxy s9, note and other models sold in the usa and
> >other places, where a *significant* number of phones are sold, are
> >single-sim.
>
> There's more to the world than just the US. The US represents less
> than 15% of smartphone users in the world.

there's more to the wold than where you are and it's not just the usa
that doesn't care about dual-sims, which is not a good solution anyway.

the future is e-sim, not dual (or single) sim.

> The Samsung S9 and many other top end phones in the rest of the world
> is comes in a dual SIM version.

it does, except that the single-sim versions outsells it.

[nospam]

In article <on8mndlp534njltvn...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> We don't want to wait until we can find a place with free
> >> wifi.
> >
> >what waiting? wifi is nearly everywhere.
>
> You need to get out and travel the world more, then you'll have a
> better idea of reality outside of your own back yard.

you need to knock off the insults.

> Wifi covers only a tiny proportion of the land area of the world,

same with cellular.

covering all land areas is not necessary. if there are no people, there
is no point in offering coverage there.

where there are people, there is coverage.

> and
> is limited to just a few metres from the service provider. Even then
> many hotspots are password restricted and you wouldn't have ready
> access to it. Wifi most certainly isn't "nearly everywhere" or
> anything remotely close to it, especially in rural and residential
> areas.

actually, wifi is nearly everywhere, except in very remote locations
where there are few people, in which case it doesn't matter all that
much.

> Serious users need "always on" internet connectivity and the only way
> to achieve that is to have access to mobile data.

which does not require a dual sim device.

[sms]

On 8/20/2018 1:23 PM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> There's more to the world than just the US. The US represents less
> than 15% of smartphone users in the world.
>
> The Samsung S9 and many other top end phones in the rest of the world
> is comes in a dual SIM version.

64% of Amaricans don't have a valid passport.

<https://matadornetwork.com/life/64-americans-never-left-u-s/>

Not sure where you live Chris, but living in Silicon Valley, which is
extremely diverse, I don't know anyone that has never left the U.S.. But
Silicon Valley is not representative of the rest of the country.

There's a big disconnect when you talk to people who don't ever travel
outside the U.S., or just go on cruises, down to a Mexican resort, or on
some organized tour. it's a whole different mindset.

[Arlen Holder]

On 20 Aug 2018 15:08:26 GMT, sms wrote:

> Not sure where you live Chris, but living in Silicon Valley, which is
> extremely diverse, I don't know anyone that has never left the U.S.. But
> Silicon Valley is not representative of the rest of the country

As sms states, I'm in Silicon Valley, and I've traveled the world many
times over. And I wasn't born here - and I still traveled the world many
times over.

[Lewis]

In message <plcg55...@ID-201911.user.individual.net> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <plap1v$bm5$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> > On 8/13/2018 7:20 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
>>
>> >>> So I can leave a phone with my regular SIM card at home and bring
>> >>> another phone with me. Calls and texts will be forwarded to Google
>> >>> Voice. My Moto X4 has all the bands necessary for China (my Stylo 3 Plus
>> >>> does not).
>> >>
>> >> Bummer on the Styloe 3 Plus! That's my current phone!
>> >> Good that you're checking bands.
>>
>> > What's really useful in Europe and Asia are dual-SIM phones. They're
>> > extremely common there, but not generally sold in the U.S., though
>> > BHPhoto sells a bunch of them.
>>
>> I have a number of friends in Europe and not a single one of them has
>> ever had (or wanted) a dual-sim phone. Nearly half of them have never
>> *heard* of a dual-sim phone being available in their countries.
>>
>> I have friends in Thailand and Japan, who also have never had a dual-sim
>> phone.
>>
>> It is a niche, and a very very small niche.

> As the Apple reference says:

> "The feature is also important for European and Asian users who
> routinely visit multiple countries."

> I.e. it's for people who visit multiple countries in different areas
> of the world.

Like I said, a very very small niche.

> Example:
>
> I live in The Netherlands and indeed do no need a dual-SIM phone for
> use in my country nor in most other European countries, because I can
> use my Dutch SIM in most other European countries, without extra roaming
> costs. (Hurah, for the EU! :-)).

> But I also frequently travel to/in Australia. For that, a dual-SIM
> phone would be handy, because my Dutch SIM would incur very high roaming
> costs (some USD 3/minute and even more per MB). So, I use an *extra*
> phone, with an Australian SIM.

And normal people simple replace the SIM when they are in Australia.

--
Gehm's Corollary to Clarke's law: Any technology distinguishable from
magic is insufficiently advanced.

[Lewis]

In message <plcmdl$el4$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> On 8/19/2018 10:24 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

>> But I also frequently travel to/in Australia. For that, a dual-SIM
>> phone would be handy, because my Dutch SIM would incur very high roaming
>> costs (some USD 3/minute and even more per MB). So, I use an *extra*
>> phone, with an Australian SIM.

> True, for people that never travel internationally a dual-SIM phone is
> of little use. But when the alternative is carrying two separate phones,
> or swapping SIMs, the dual SIM is very nice to have. In China and
> Europe, dual-SIM phones are quite popular.

They are *NOT* popular in Europe.

--
'And stars don't care what you wish, and magic don't make things better,
and no-one doesn't get burned who sticks their hand in a fire.'

[Chris in Makati]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 16:46:09 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>In article <on8mndlp534njltvn...@4ax.com>, Chris in
>Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> >> We don't want to wait until we can find a place with free
>> >> wifi.
>> >
>> >what waiting? wifi is nearly everywhere.
>>
>> You need to get out and travel the world more, then you'll have a
>> better idea of reality outside of your own back yard.
>
>you need to knock off the insults.

It wasn't an insult, it was a genuine piece of advice. It's clear that
you have very limited experience of the world. I've noticed this on
many threads you get involved in. You make statements which may apply
for your own home area, but they don't hold true for most of the of
the rest of the world.

>> Wifi covers only a tiny proportion of the land area of the world,
>
>same with cellular.

That's one of the most ridiculous statements you've ever made. Wi-fi
is designed as a very localised service with a range of a few metres
from the access point. Mobile networks are designed to have wide area
coverage and the signal can cover up to ten of kilometres.

To claim they have similar coverage is just nonsense.

[Chris in Makati]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 00:02:48 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> I live in The Netherlands and indeed do no need a dual-SIM phone for
>> use in my country nor in most other European countries, because I can
>> use my Dutch SIM in most other European countries, without extra roaming
>> costs. (Hurah, for the EU! :-)).
>
>> But I also frequently travel to/in Australia. For that, a dual-SIM
>> phone would be handy, because my Dutch SIM would incur very high roaming
>> costs (some USD 3/minute and even more per MB). So, I use an *extra*
>> phone, with an Australian SIM.
>
>And normal people simple replace the SIM when they are in Australia.

They do, but then they're unable to receive SMS messages sent to their
normal home number. That's why world travelers prefer dual-SIM phones
to they can stay in touch both locally and at home without having to
carry around two phones.

[Frank Slootweg]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <plcg55...@ID-201911.user.individual.net> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> >> In message <plap1v$bm5$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >> > On 8/13/2018 7:20 PM, Arlen Holder wrote:
> >>
> >> >>> So I can leave a phone with my regular SIM card at home and
> >> >>> bring another phone with me. Calls and texts will be forwarded
> >> >>> to Google Voice. My Moto X4 has all the bands necessary for
> >> >>> China (my Stylo 3 Plus does not).
> >> >>
> >> >> Bummer on the Styloe 3 Plus! That's my current phone!
> >> >> Good that you're checking bands.
> >>
> >> > What's really useful in Europe and Asia are dual-SIM phones. They're
> >> > extremely common there, but not generally sold in the U.S., though
> >> > BHPhoto sells a bunch of them.
> >>
> >> I have a number of friends in Europe and not a single one of them has
> >> ever had (or wanted) a dual-sim phone. Nearly half of them have never
> >> *heard* of a dual-sim phone being available in their countries.
> >>
> >> I have friends in Thailand and Japan, who also have never had a dual-sim
> >> phone.
> >>
> >> It is a niche, and a very very small niche.

A niche is small by definition. "a very very small niche" is way too
strong.

But it's not a substantial part of total sales, let's leave it at that.

[...]

> > Example:
> >
> > I live in The Netherlands and indeed do no need a dual-SIM phone for
> > use in my country nor in most other European countries, because I can
> > use my Dutch SIM in most other European countries, without extra roaming
> > costs. (Hurah, for the EU! :-)).
>
> > But I also frequently travel to/in Australia. For that, a dual-SIM
> > phone would be handy, because my Dutch SIM would incur very high roaming
> > costs (some USD 3/minute and even more per MB). So, I use an *extra*
> > phone, with an Australian SIM.
>
> And normal people simple replace the SIM when they are in Australia.

s/normal/dumb/

Because then they wouldn't get any SMS sent to their 'home' number,
nor hear/see calls to that number, which both would be free of charge.

[Arlen Holder]

On 23 Aug 2018 03:34:10 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

>> And normal people simple replace the SIM when they are in Australia.
>
> s/normal/dumb/
>
> Because then they wouldn't get any SMS sent to their 'home' number,
> nor hear/see calls to that number, which both would be free of charge.

Always remember that Lewis is one of the *dumbest* people on this ng.

Nothing Lewis has ever said even approaches the midline of the bell curve.

There are three people on this ng who post what you have to shake your head
in dismay when reading, muttering to yourself something to the effect of,
"I can't believe these people are _that_ dumb".

a. Lewis
b. Jolly Roger
c. BK@OnRamp

[Arlen Holder]

On 23 Aug 2018 01:59:15 GMT, Chris in Makati wrote:

> It wasn't an insult, it was a genuine piece of advice. It's clear that
> you have very limited experience of the world. I've noticed this on
> many threads you get involved in. You make statements which may apply
> for your own home area, but they don't hold true for most of the of
> the rest of the world.

What's clear is that nospam has a very black & white view of the world.
There is nospam's way, or the highway, so to speak.

Mostly his view is dead wrong (e.g., he constantly claims it's Android's
fault for everything bad about Apple and he constantly fabricates imaginary
functionality that simply doesn't exist).

Since even the monkey gets things right sometimes, even when he's right,
his lack of credibility means you have to doublecheck everything he says,
simply because his guesses are right so infrequently, that anything he says
is worthless - simply because it's all just a wild ass guess on his part.

>>> Wifi covers only a tiny proportion of the land area of the world,
>>
>>same with cellular.
>
> That's one of the most ridiculous statements you've ever made. Wi-fi
> is designed as a very localised service with a range of a few metres
> from the access point. Mobile networks are designed to have wide area
> coverage and the signal can cover up to ten of kilometres.
>
> To claim they have similar coverage is just nonsense.

See above.
Nospam has a very black & white view of the world.

Facts such as the typically huge difference in coverage between WiFi and
Cellular, simply don't fit into nospam's imaginary belief system.

[nospam]

In article <uossndpucqlitqmbp...@4ax.com>, Chris in

i'm not talking about a single transmitter, and wifi is more than 'a
few metres'.

cellular does not cover the entire land area of the world either, nor
does it need to. what matters is coverage where people actually are.

[nospam]

In article <plm9jp...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg

<th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > And normal people simple replace the SIM when they are in Australia.
>
> s/normal/dumb/
>
> Because then they wouldn't get any SMS sent to their 'home' number,
> nor hear/see calls to that number, which both would be free of charge.

sms and calls while roaming are rarely free of charge, plus most people
have switched to messaging apps, which also do a lot more.

[nospam]

In article <nltsnd5c95ften16n...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> But I also frequently travel to/in Australia. For that, a dual-SIM
> >> phone would be handy, because my Dutch SIM would incur very high roaming
> >> costs (some USD 3/minute and even more per MB). So, I use an *extra*
> >> phone, with an Australian SIM.
> >
> >And normal people simple replace the SIM when they are in Australia.
>
> They do, but then they're unable to receive SMS messages sent to their
> normal home number. That's why world travelers prefer dual-SIM phones
> to they can stay in touch both locally and at home without having to
> carry around two phones.

sms messages are old school.

messaging apps, including whatsapp, signal, facebook messenger, apple
imessage and many, many others, have largely replaced plain sms texts
for many reasons, and not just for those who travel.

[Arlen Holder]

On 23 Aug 2018 07:15:21 GMT, nospam wrote:

> sms and calls while roaming are rarely free of charge, plus most people
> have switched to messaging apps, which also do a lot more.

Not only are you wrong about almost everything (because you just guess),
the fact is that I have T-Mobile which has zero roaming charges both in the
USA and every summer and winter when I travel to Europe.

SMS is free and unlimited in both the USA and in Europe.

I realize you, nospam, are immune to facts.
Facts don't have a place in your imaginary belief system.

*But the fact you don't like facts doesn't make them not facts.*

[Arlen Holder]

On 23 Aug 2018 07:15:20 GMT, nospam wrote:

> sms messages are old school.
>
> messaging apps, including whatsapp, signal, facebook messenger, apple
> imessage and many, many others, have largely replaced plain sms texts
> for many reasons, and not just for those who travel.

Once again, the Apple Apologist nospam redefines, unilaterally, what the
world does, by claiming that plain SMS has "largely been replaced".

These Apple Apologists like nospam have to redefine the world to fit into
their imaginary belief system.

[Arlen Holder]

On 23 Aug 2018 07:15:20 GMT, nospam wrote:

> i'm not talking about a single transmitter, and wifi is more than 'a
> few metres'.
>
> cellular does not cover the entire land area of the world either, nor
> does it need to. what matters is coverage where people actually are.

What is so very consistent with Apple Apologists like nospam is that they
constantly are forced to *redefine* common definitions, simply so that they
can begin to defend their idiotic guesses.

Since facts don't fit into nospam's imaginary belief system, he has to
resort to re-defining definitions, with specific distances and coverage
that fit his needs.

Every week, Apple Apologists like nospam & Jolly Roger hilariously redefine
common words, as they did last week with their own peculiar definition of
web domains being part of a cloud storage system such as iCloud is.

Only on the Apple newsgroups can Apple Apologists survive.
On other platform newsgroups, nospam gets his head handed to him.

[Frank Slootweg]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <plm9jp...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
> <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > And normal people simple replace the SIM when they are in Australia.
> >
> > s/normal/dumb/
> >
> > Because then they wouldn't get any SMS sent to their 'home' number,
> > nor hear/see calls to that number, which both would be free of charge.
>
> sms and calls while roaming are rarely free of charge,

[Assuming that this is not yet another case of failing Reading for
Comprehension 101:]

They *are* free of charge in most of the real/civilized world, i.e.
outside your US-centric bubble.

[Yet another red herring deleted.]

[Frank Slootweg]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <plcmdl$el4$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > On 8/19/2018 10:24 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>
> >> But I also frequently travel to/in Australia. For that, a dual-SIM
> >> phone would be handy, because my Dutch SIM would incur very high roaming
> >> costs (some USD 3/minute and even more per MB). So, I use an *extra*
> >> phone, with an Australian SIM.
>
> > True, for people that never travel internationally a dual-SIM phone is
> > of little use. But when the alternative is carrying two separate phones,
> > or swapping SIMs, the dual SIM is very nice to have. In China and
> > Europe, dual-SIM phones are quite popular.
>
> They are *NOT* popular in Europe.

$nospam_Lewis_mode ON

Yes, they *ARE* popular in Europe!

$nospam_Lewis_mode OFF

Just for fun, I just checked the smartphones at one of our major - if
not the major - webshops (which operates in several European countries).

They have 340 different smartphones - iPhones included - with prices
from EUR 78 to EUR 1279.

Of those 340 smartphones, 184 - i.e. *54%* - are dual-SIM.

Normal people consider 54% to be popular.

QED.

HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.

N.B. For cheaper/less-expensive smartphones, the percentage is even
higher: For a maximum of EUR 500, 142 out of 221, 64%.

[nospam]

In article <plmjmt$5cv$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

> the fact is that I have T-Mobile which has zero roaming charges both in the
> USA and every summer and winter when I travel to Europe.

t-mobile is a minority carrier and the exception.

<http://www.wireless2020.com/media/images/W2020_1.jpg>

at&t, verizon and sprint have roaming fees, as do most international
carriers.

messaging apps do not.

[nospam]

In article <pln3mh...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg

<th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

>
> They have 340 different smartphones - iPhones included - with prices
> from EUR 78 to EUR 1279.
>
> Of those 340 smartphones, 184 - i.e. *54%* - are dual-SIM.
>
> Normal people consider 54% to be popular.

normal people understand that what matters is how many are actually
sold *and* how many are used with both sims, *not* how many sit on a
shelf, or bought 'just in case' and the second sim never actually used
(or rarely used).

the original claim was that apple is losing money by not making a dual
sim phone. apple is not losing money. far from it. apple makes more
money than the rest of cellular phone industry *combined*.

apple has long wanted to switch to e-sims, where the user can switch
carriers with a few taps, a much better solution versus dual-sims, but
the carriers are fighting that, going so far as claiming that phones
with e-sims will not be supported at all.

[Arlen Holder]

On 23 Aug 2018 11:09:09 GMT, nospam wrote:

> t-mobile is a minority carrier and the exception.
> <http://www.wireless2020.com/media/images/W2020_1.jpg>
> at&t, verizon and sprint have roaming fees, as do most international
> carriers.

Jesus. You're an utter idiot, nospam. Really.

You consistently prove you're an utter moron, nospam.
Every time you post - you say fantastically stupid things that have zero
basis in actual fact.

How on earth to you survive being _that_ incomprehensibly stupid?

*Absolutely nothing you say. nospam, is ever a factual truth.*

Everything you say, nospam, is a childish wild-ass guess - where - when
challenged - you completely redefine the English language to suit your
needs.

You, nospam, always have to respond to factual challenges with arbitrary
*custom* definitions, just as you did last week where you and Jolly Roger
completely re-defined the meaning of the "cloud" to suit your idiotic
wild-ass guesses.

Now you're redefining the word "rarely".

US carrier plans with zero roaming charges & unlimited SMS are not rare.

I only have to look up the T-Mobile market share to see they're not even
close to rare.
<https://www.statista.com/statistics/199359/market-share-of-wireless-carriers-in-the-us-by-subscriptions/>
<https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/how-verizon-at-t-t-mobile-sprint-and-more-stacked-up-q2-2016-top-7-carriers>

The problem with you, nospam, is you make idiotic wild-ass guesses all the
time, where not only is your credibility utterly worthless, but when
challenged on the facts behind your wild-assed guesses, we find out that
the facts are all imaginary ...

*Your entire belief system is underlain by wholly imaginary statistics.*

The only way you can respond to factual challenges is to incessantly
childishly fabricate completely imaginary meanings for the words you use.

HINT: 3rd place in the USA is not even remotely close to "rare". Idiot.
<https://www.benzinga.com/news/17/02/9074651/t-mobile-continues-to-gobble-up-market-share-now-3rd-place-in-the-u-s>

[nospam]

In article <pln4eo$1mi$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen...@nospam.net> wrote:

> US carrier plans with zero roaming charges & unlimited SMS are not rare.

yes they are, and your links confirm it.

> I only have to look up the T-Mobile market share to see they're not even
> close to rare.
>
> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/199359/market-share-of-wireless-carriers-
> in-the-us-by-subscriptions/>
>
> <https://www.fiercewireless.com/wireless/how-verizon-at-t-t-mobile-sprint-and-
> more-stacked-up-q2-2016-top-7-carriers>

add it up.

142.754 (vz) + 131.805 (att) + 67.384 (tmo) + 58.446 (spcs) + 4.979
(uscell) + 1.007 (shentel) = 406.375 million subscribers.

of that, t-mobile has 67.384 million subscribers, or a 16.6% share.

that leaves 83.4% of mobile customers in the usa who do *not* have free
international roaming on t-mobile because they don't use t-mobile.

it's actually more than that, since not all t-mobile plans have that
feature, so roughly 9 out of 10 do not.

and that's using the numbers *you* provided.

[Arlen Holder]

On 23 Aug 2018 10:28:55 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

>> sms and calls while roaming are rarely free of charge,
>
> [Assuming that this is not yet another case of failing Reading for
> Comprehension 101:]
>
> They *are* free of charge in most of the real/civilized world, i.e.
> outside your US-centric bubble.
>
> [Yet another red herring deleted.]

Hi Frank,
I just responded to nospam where I said the same thing you did, but not as
nicely as you said it.

What amazes me about nospam is that he has no compunction about making
wild-assed guesses that are so far off base that I have to wonder if
a. He's incredibly stupid, or,
b. He's just toying with the world.

His statements are so utterly ridiculous all the time that I have to wonder
if anyone can be _that_ stupid as what nospam writes indicates about him.

For example, while I don't spend my time compiling statistics, it's easy
for me to see factual proof that T-Mobile alone is the number 3 player in
market share in the USA, where my T-Mobile plan certainly has unlimited SMS
in the USA and Europe (which is mostly where I travel) along with no
roaming charges in the USA & Europe and, in addition, free unlimited data
while in Europe (where my data is capped in the USA, interestingly enough).

While most adults make a wild-assed wrong guess once in a while (this is
Usenet after all), what's strange about nospam is he makes wild-assed
wholly incorrect guesses all the time.

Post after post, day after day, week after week, year after yeat.

What's strange about nospam is that he can't seem to learn how to act like
an adult where adults just don't do what he does.

Adults don't constantly make wild-assed almost always wrong guesses, and
then when confronted, adults don't redefine the definitions of common words
like the "cloud" or "rarely", just to attempt to defend their incorrect
wild assed guesses.

Adults speak facts.
Or they put a clear "IMHO" on their wild-assed unsubstantiated guesses.

The child nospam does neither.

[Arlen Holder]

On 23 Aug 2018 13:28:31 GMT, nospam wrote:

> yes they are, and your links confirm it.

What amazes me about you nospam is that you have absolutely no compunction

about making wild-assed guesses that are so far off base that I have to
wonder if

a. You're really _that_ incredibly stupid, or,
b. You are just childishly toying with us.

While most adults make a wild-assed wrong guess once in a while (this is

Usenet after all), what's strange about you nospam is you make so many

wild-assed wholly incorrect guesses all the time.

*You're almost always dead wrong, nospam.*

Post after post, day after day, week after week, year after year.
*Almost everything you write - is dead wrong, nospam.*


The only way you can "defend" your imaginary belief system is to
incessantly fabricate completely imaginary meanings to common words like
the "cloud" or "rarely".

[sms]

On 8/23/2018 10:59 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> $nospam_Lewis_mode ON
>
> Yes, they *ARE* popular in Europe!
>
> $nospam_Lewis_mode OFF
>
> Just for fun, I just checked the smartphones at one of our major - if
> not the major - webshops (which operates in several European countries).
>
> They have 340 different smartphones - iPhones included - with prices
> from EUR 78 to EUR 1279.
>
> Of those 340 smartphones, 184 - i.e. *54%* - are dual-SIM.
>
> Normal people consider 54% to be popular.
>
> QED.
>
> HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
>
> N.B. For cheaper/less-expensive smartphones, the percentage is even
> higher: For a maximum of EUR 500, 142 out of 221, 64%.

Yeah, most Europeans and Asians I know that live in the U.S. but travel
back there frequently, have dual-SIM phones. They are quite popular on
both of those continents.

It will be interesting to see what Apple does. One report I read was
that there will be one E-SIM and one physical SIM, but not two physical
SIMs. Another report says that there will be two physical SIMs because
China doesn't support E-SIMs. We shall see. Of course they could decide
to do nothing at all, but I think that that's unlikely since dual-SIMs
are such a sought after feature, in Europe, and even more so in China.

This report
<https://www.slashgear.com/dual-sim-6-1-inch-iphone-isnt-going-out-of-china-05540171/>
states:

"It’s not hard to see why Apple is finally implementing a much-requested
feature at least in China. It is quickly losing ground in that market to
Android OEMs, particularly to the likes of Xiaomi and Huawei. It now has
to put in greater effort in appealing to consumers there who expect
their expensive smartphones to support two SIM cards.

What is a bit harder to understand is why Apple will limit that model to
China, which is hardly the only market that has a high percentage of
dual SIM smartphone users. Europe comes to mind as well. That is slowly
also becoming a thing in the US, though more slowly than in other markets."

The reason they won't offer it in the U.S. is because the carriers don't
want them to, though they could always just offer it direct from Apple
and not through the carriers.

[nospam]

In article <plnjbg$r13$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> The reason they won't offer it in the U.S. is because the carriers don't
> want them to,

yep, and not just the usa.

> though they could always just offer it direct from Apple
> and not through the carriers.

that won't change anything.

carriers will continue to refuse to activate e-sims in phones, instead
requiring a physical sim.

the google pixel 2 has an e-sim, but it's only supported with google's
own project fi. there is a physical sim for the other carriers.

ipads have had e-sims for a several years (in addition to a physical
sim), but not all carriers support the e-sim. many carriers require a
physical sim.

eventually the carriers will start supporting e-sims in phones as it's
clearly the future, but when that will happen is unknown. they're
starting to warm up to it in tablets and wearables.

[Lewis]

If you are in India with a UK SIM then no, the texts and calls to your
UK number are not free, they are very very expensive.

Calling a UK number while in India costs 2 pounds a minute on Three, and
each text to the UK is 35p. Incoming calls are 1 pound 25p and data use
is 3 pounds per MEGABYTE.

<http://www.three.co.uk/Support/Roaming_and_international/Mobile_Roaming?content_aid=1214306363631>

--
++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.

[Lewis]

In message <pln3mh...@ID-201911.user.individual.net> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <plcmdl$el4$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> > On 8/19/2018 10:24 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
>>
>> >> But I also frequently travel to/in Australia. For that, a dual-SIM
>> >> phone would be handy, because my Dutch SIM would incur very high roaming
>> >> costs (some USD 3/minute and even more per MB). So, I use an *extra*
>> >> phone, with an Australian SIM.
>>
>> > True, for people that never travel internationally a dual-SIM phone is
>> > of little use. But when the alternative is carrying two separate phones,
>> > or swapping SIMs, the dual SIM is very nice to have. In China and
>> > Europe, dual-SIM phones are quite popular.
>>
>> They are *NOT* popular in Europe.

> $nospam_Lewis_mode ON

> Yes, they *ARE* popular in Europe!

> $nospam_Lewis_mode OFF

> Just for fun, I just checked the smartphones at one of our major - if
> not the major - webshops (which operates in several European countries).

> They have 340 different smartphones - iPhones included - with prices
> from EUR 78 to EUR 1279.

> Of those 340 smartphones, 184 - i.e. *54%* - are dual-SIM.

And how many are used with two SIMs? 1%? Less?

--
Laugh it up, fuzzball!

[Lewis]

In message <plnjbg$r13$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/23/2018 10:59 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> <snip>

>> $nospam_Lewis_mode ON
>>
>> Yes, they *ARE* popular in Europe!
>>
>> $nospam_Lewis_mode OFF
>>
>> Just for fun, I just checked the smartphones at one of our major - if
>> not the major - webshops (which operates in several European countries).
>>
>> They have 340 different smartphones - iPhones included - with prices
>> from EUR 78 to EUR 1279.
>>
>> Of those 340 smartphones, 184 - i.e. *54%* - are dual-SIM.
>>
>> Normal people consider 54% to be popular.
>>
>> QED.
>>
>> HTH. HAND. EOD. NL.
>>
>> N.B. For cheaper/less-expensive smartphones, the percentage is even
>> higher: For a maximum of EUR 500, 142 out of 221, 64%.

> Yeah, most Europeans and Asians I know that live in the U.S. but travel
> back there frequently, have dual-SIM phones. They are quite popular on
> both of those continents.

Bullshit. I know several Europeans who travel multiple times a year to
the US and none use dual SIMS. And one of them had never even HEARD of
dual SIM phone before the recent Apple rumors.

> It will be interesting to see what Apple does. One report I read was
> that there will be one E-SIM and one physical SIM, but not two physical
> SIMs.

95% that is the case, the other 5% is they do a dual SIM phone in China.

--
Age is only important if you're cheese.

[Chris in Makati]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 10:15:21 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

SMS messages are free to receive while roaming with almost every
network. I've been using mobile phones in dozens of countries around
the world since 1994 and I have NEVER been charged for an incoming SMS
while roaming.

See what I mean about you needing to get some real life world
experience before you get involved in discussion that are out of your
depth. No insult intended.

[Chris in Makati]

That's for SENDING texts to the UK while you're roaming. Texts
RECEIVED on your phone while you are roaming are free of charge, as
they are everywhere.

[Chris in Makati]

On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 10:15:20 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

To a certain extent you're correct, but SMS is still used a lot where
security is important, such as for banks and other financial
institutions to send verification codes to approve secure logins etc.

Do you know of any bank that sends verification codes via Facebook?

[Frank Slootweg]

Sure, these companies make them, these shops stock them, customers buy
them and then Lewis pulls "1%? Less?" out of thin air (or out of
something else)!

Like nospam, you *really* should get out more!

[Frank Slootweg]

Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <pln1tf...@ID-201911.user.individual.net> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> > nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >> In article <plm9jp...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
> >> <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >> > > And normal people simple replace the SIM when they are in Australia.
> >> >
> >> > s/normal/dumb/
> >> >
> >> > Because then they wouldn't get any SMS sent to their 'home' number,
> >> > nor hear/see calls to that number, which both would be free of charge.
> >>
> >> sms and calls while roaming are rarely free of charge,
>
> > [Assuming that this is not yet another case of failing Reading for
> > Comprehension 101:]
>
> > They *are* free of charge in most of the real/civilized world, i.e.
> > outside your US-centric bubble.
>
> If you are in India with a UK SIM then no, the texts and calls to your
> UK number are not free, they are very very expensive.

[Rewind/repeat:]

> > [Assuming that this is not yet another case of failing Reading for
> > Comprehension 101:]

Apparently my assumption was misplaced. See Chris' response.

> Calling a UK number while in India costs 2 pounds a minute on Three, and
> each text to the UK is 35p. Incoming calls are 1 pound 25p and data use
> is 3 pounds per MEGABYTE.
>
> <http://www.three.co.uk/Support/Roaming_and_international/Mobile_Roaming?content_aid=1214306363631>

Which proves *our* point.

[sms]

On 8/23/2018 10:26 PM, Lewis wrote:

> And how many are used with two SIMs? 1%? Less?

In terms of the percentage of time they are used with two SIMs, low.
In terms of if they are _occasionally_ used with two SIMs, high.

When you travel outside your country, or in Europe outside of western
Europe, is when you use the second SIM slot with a prepaid SIM card.
Most of the time you're on your regular carrier.

What's also relevant is the number of dual SIM phones where both SIM
slots are actually used. In Europe, it ranges from 7.5% to 33.6%. U.S.,
Australia, and Canada were the lowest at 3.5% to 4%.

Dual SIM phones are a matter of convenience. You can always carry two
separate phones. Or you can swap SIM cards, though you lose the standby
functionality that makes dual-SIM phones so attractive in the first place.

In some countries, people use dual-SIMs internally, i.e. the wsj article
stated that is some African countries "call rates between different
telecom networks were more expensive than intra-network calls." In the
U.S. this used to be the case as well, with in-network calls not using
minutes (and it's still true on some prepaid plans).

The bottom line is that the lack of dual-SIM models has hurt sales of
the iPhone in some regions, and it looks like Apple is about to address
this. Last week I was a judge at a kids' hackathon where many of the
teams were from Shanghai, and we had lunch with their teachers the next
day. We had a big discussion about phones (being 1/2 mile from Apple
there's a lot of talk about phones around here!). They were talking
about the meteoric rise of Oppo in China, which has taken their cues
from Apple in terms of marketing, and that has been building phones with
different features for different regions of the world, including
dual-SIM models.

It's difficult to understand the defensiveness by some posters in this
thread regarding dual-SIM phones. When evidence is presented regarding
the popularity of dual-SIM phones it should engender a response of "oh,
thank you, I didn't know that," rather than a demand to know exactly how
many of those dual-SIM phones are actually used with two SIMs.

It's no secret that dual-SIM phones are extremely popular in some parts
of the world, including China, Africa, and Europe, but not popular in
the U.S.. I think that some people need to obtain a passport and do some
world-traveling and understand that not everything is exactly the same
as in the U.S.. And try not to eat at McDonald's when you go, though I
confess to eating at a McDonald's in Russia, and at a KFC in China.

<https://deviceatlas.com/blog/dual-sim-smartphone-usage-2017>
<https://opensignal.com/reports/2015/01/android-devices-dual-sim/>
<https://www.wsj.com/articles/two-sim-cards-and-better-selfies-how-chinas-smartphones-are-taking-on-apple-1496827801>

[sms]

On 8/24/2018 3:56 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> Sure, these companies make them, these shops stock them, customers buy
> them and then Lewis pulls "1%? Less?" out of thin air (or out of
> something else)!
>
> Like nospam, you *really* should get out more!

Perhaps we should set up crowd-funding to buy them a trip to Europe,
Asia, or Africa, so they can learn about the world.

[sms]

On 8/24/2018 2:35 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2018 10:15:21 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> In article <plm9jp...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>, Frank Slootweg
>> <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> And normal people simple replace the SIM when they are in Australia.
>>>
>>> s/normal/dumb/
>>>
>>> Because then they wouldn't get any SMS sent to their 'home' number,
>>> nor hear/see calls to that number, which both would be free of charge.
>>
>> sms and calls while roaming are rarely free of charge, plus most people
>> have switched to messaging apps, which also do a lot more.
>
> SMS messages are free to receive while roaming with almost every
> network. I've been using mobile phones in dozens of countries around
> the world since 1994 and I have NEVER been charged for an incoming SMS
> while roaming.

That is true with most prepaid country-specific SIM cards and many
prepaid global SIM cards. Incoming calls are also often free, or charged
at low rates, due to "caller pays." However this has led to some abusive
practices, with some global SIM cards assigning phone numbers in
countries which cost a lot to call, especially Estonia. One of the
lowest cost international long distance services charges 36.5¢ to call a
mobile phone in Estonia, while calling a mobile phone in Germany is
5.2¢, U.K. is 2.3¢, and China is 1.2¢.

Inside China, a lot of people use WeChat instead of SMS, and in India
WhatsApp is most popular. In the U.S., these messaging apps have not
been as popular for general use. I'm on WeChat and WhatsApp because my
Chinese and Indian colleagues use them.

> See what I mean about you needing to get some real life world
> experience before you get involved in discussion that are out of your
> depth. No insult intended.

Those that don't travel outside their home country simply do not
understand that the whole world is not the same as the U.S.. And it
doesn't have to be expensive to travel to most countries if you get over
the need to stay in expensive hotels.

[sms]

On 8/24/2018 2:35 AM, Chris in Makati wrote:

<snip>

> That's for SENDING texts to the UK while you're roaming. Texts
> RECEIVED on your phone while you are roaming are free of charge, as
> they are everywhere.

As an aside, one Global SIM card that I've used offers 30 days of
WhatsApp access with no data charges after each purchase of credit. If
you can get all your contacts to use WhatsApp, this is a good
alternative to SMS when traveling outside the U.S.. You can even make
voice calls over WhatsApp, though in my experience, the quality of
WhatsApp calls has been terrible.

SMS is still so widely used because it's ubiquitous, it works even if
you're not signed up with some other messaging app.

[Arlen Holder]

On 24 Aug 2018 04:00:11 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> Which proves *our* point.

I didn't read the reference because I believe what Frank Slootweg said.
If true that Lewis' reference disproved his own point, it wouldn't be the
first time since this habit of quoting references that disprove what they
think it says, is a common trait of the Apple Apologists.

What amazes me is that Jolly Roger, Lewis, and just yesterday, nospam,
quote references when confronted which don't even back up their points.

While their credibility is worthless, what is odd is that they can't seem
to comprehend what their references actually say.

Just like Snit's video doesn't show what they think it shows.
<https://youtu.be/7QaABa6DFIo>

And just as Jolly Roger's video doesn't show what he thinks it shows:
<http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/usenet/ios-voice-recordings/uploadfiles_test.mp4>

And nospam's reference yesterday doesn't show what he thinks it shows:
<http://www.wireless2020.com/media/images/W2020_1.jpg>

*It's amazing that their own references directly refute their statements!*

Whenever I see that from these classic Apple Apologists, I have to ask:
a. Are they really _that_ dumb to not even _understand_ their own cites?
b. Or are they simply hoping that we are?

[Arlen Holder]

On 24 Aug 2018 04:50:37 GMT, sms wrote:

> Perhaps we should set up crowd-funding to buy them a trip to Europe,
> Asia, or Africa, so they can learn about the world.

The Apple Apologists like Lewis & nospam & Jolly Roger, all exhibit similar
(but slightly different) traits.

Mostly they make outrageous claims that have absolutely no validity.
Certainly they care not for their credibility.

I think they haven't been challenged on facts in their lives.
That must mean they deal mostly with unintelligent undemanding people.

I'm sure most of us, even we intelligent ones, make a statement that might
not be wholly accurate from time to time, particularly in an informal
Usenet conversation.

But the incessant outrageously incorrect statements they make is odd.
They don't act like normal adults should act.

*Specifically, their credibility is worthless to them (and hence, to us).*

[nospam]

In article <plor82$m0t$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > And how many are used with two SIMs? 1%? Less?
>
> In terms of the percentage of time they are used with two SIMs, low.
> In terms of if they are _occasionally_ used with two SIMs, high.

exactly the point.

there's little point in making a product that's rarely used.

also, a dual-sim phone means something *else* must be removed to
accommodate the second physical sim, one reason why apple has been
pushing e-sims, but the carriers are fighting it.

[nospam]

In article <t3kvnd59hgvcfku9s...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> Texts
> RECEIVED on your phone while you are roaming are free of charge, as
> they are everywhere.

receiving texts is not free everywhere.

[nospam]

In article <8akvndp9mntblf694...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >
> >messaging apps, including whatsapp, signal, facebook messenger, apple
> >imessage and many, many others, have largely replaced plain sms texts
> >for many reasons, and not just for those who travel.
>
> To a certain extent you're correct, but SMS is still used a lot where
> security is important, such as for banks and other financial
> institutions to send verification codes to approve secure logins etc.

nonsense.

sms is used for 2 factor solely for convenience, not security, and any
bank that uses it is a bank to avoid. close your account now before
it's too late. and not just banks either.

sms can be intercepted and it's also fairly easy to sim hijack a phone
to take over someone's account and then get all of their 2 factor codes
along with voice confirmation calls.

in fact, sim hijacking is *so* common that t-mobile issued a warning to
all customers to inform them about the risks:
<https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/gy8bxy/t-mobile-text-warning-
phone-hijacking-number-port-out-scam>
T-Mobile Is Sending a Mass Text Warning of ŚIndustry-Wideą Phone
Hijacking Scam
Cybercriminals are increasingly targeting peopleąs phone numbers,
hijacking and then using them to access peopleąs bank or social media
accounts.

sms 2 factor also requires an active cellular account *and* being
within coverage area, which is not a given and for some people, a
financial burden.

companies who understand security (not just banks, who mostly do not)
use hardware tokens, totp or u2f, which are not only significantly more
secure, but will work anywhere, regardless of cellular service.

> Do you know of any bank that sends verification codes via Facebook?

what ever gave you that idea?

[123456789]

On 8/24/2018 6:35 AM, nospam wrote:

> sms is used for 2 factor solely for convenience, not security, and
> any bank that uses it is a bank to avoid. close your account now
> before it's too late.

It's certainly better than password alone security.

> sms can be intercepted

The 2 factor code from my bank is only sent ONCE per NEW device. For
example the 2 factor bank (device verify) code was last sent to my phone
about 2 YEARS ago. The chances of someone targeting one text in 2 years
is pretty slim, don't you think?

PLUS...in order to get my bank to send me that 2 factor code I
have to enter my BANK ACCOUNT PASSWORD using the bank's secure app. No
password - no code.

> and it's also fairly easy to sim hijack a phone

Even if someone hijacked my sim and took over my phone account they
would need my BANK PASSWORD to get into my bank account app. Likewise if
someone steals my phone and breaks my phone's password, still no bank
access without a bank password.

> to take over someone's account and then get all of their 2 factor
> codes

My bank app would not open on an unverified device (strange phone with a
hijacked sim) without my BANK PASSWORD. And without that password they
would NOT be able to get a text verify code. Catch 22.

> in fact, sim hijacking is *so* common that t-mobile issued a warning
> to all customers to inform them about the risks:

Sim hijacking may make other problems for me but bank security is likely
not one.

> sms 2 factor also requires an active cellular account *and* being
> within coverage area

Since I only need the code ONCE for each new device I get, maybe a
couple times a year, I suppose I could plan ahead. But then Verizon has
great coverage so that's not a really really a big problem. YMMV.

> companies who understand security (not just banks, who mostly do
> not) use hardware tokens, totp or u2f, which are not only
> significantly more secure, but will work anywhere, regardless of
> cellular service.

There are for sure more secure methods. But 2 factor verification over
text for banking is not the terrible security risk you're making it out
to be...

[Chris]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <uossndpucqlitqmbp...@4ax.com>, Chris in
> Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Wifi covers only a tiny proportion of the land area of the world,
>>>
>>> same with cellular.
>>
>> That's one of the most ridiculous statements you've ever made. Wi-fi
>> is designed as a very localised service with a range of a few metres
>> from the access point. Mobile networks are designed to have wide area
>> coverage and the signal can cover up to ten of kilometres.
>>
>> To claim they have similar coverage is just nonsense.
>
> i'm not talking about a single transmitter, and wifi is more than 'a
> few metres'.
>
> cellular does not cover the entire land area of the world either, nor
> does it need to. what matters is coverage where people actually are.

Exactly. Even in urban areas Wi-Fi coverage is a fraction of mobile
networks. For example, In my home city, if I'm anywhere other than work or
home I have no Wi-Fi access while on the move or outside. If desperate I
could duck into a coffee shop to use their Wi-Fi, but that doesn't change
the overall disparity in coverage.

[Lewis]

You said they are free, they are not. If you leave you UK SIM in your
phone in India, and you get a text, you will pay 35p. If you get a call,
you will pay £1.25 per minute. the only way to avoid that is to disable
your UK SIM or remove it from a phone. Having a dual-SIM phone would
only cost you much much more money.

> QED.

You obviously have no idea what that means, since you have failed to
prove anything at all.

--
A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory.

[Lewis]

In message <plor82$m0t$1...@dont-email.me> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/23/2018 10:26 PM, Lewis wrote:

>> And how many are used with two SIMs? 1%? Less?

> In terms of the percentage of time they are used with two SIMs, low.
> In terms of if they are _occasionally_ used with two SIMs, high.

Cite?

> What's also relevant is the number of dual SIM phones where both SIM
> slots are actually used. In Europe, it ranges from 7.5% to 33.6%. U.S.,
> Australia, and Canada were the lowest at 3.5% to 4%.

Those number are for the number of dual SIM phones sold, not the
number in use.

> It's no secret that dual-SIM phones are extremely popular in some parts
> of the world, including China, Africa, and Europe,

China, yes. Africa, sure. Eurpoe, no.

> <https://deviceatlas.com/blog/dual-sim-smartphone-usage-2017>

That page cites no data at all and even admits the estimates are base on
web traffic TO THAT SPECIFIC SITE from phones that can have dual sims.
Try again.


--
I SAW NOTHING UNUSUAL IN THE TEACHER'S LOUNGE Bart chalkboard Ep. 8F17