Prof. Madhav Deshpande has left bvparishat

[Nityanand Misra]

Dear list members

I came to know that Prof. Madhav Deshpande has left this mailing list. For many years, we learned from his scholarly posts and enjoyed his poetic verses. Needless to say, it is a great loss for bvparishat.

It appears Prof. Deshpande was tired of answering questions which clearly did not deserve his time. I recall him writing “But this list has a tendency to drag me into unrelated disputes from time to time” in one of the threads recently.

I request the list owners and senior members to please make a formal request to him to join the group again.

I also request for a more active moderation of the list so that we do not lose other scholars like him. Scholarly posts (and even scholarly criticism) should be welcome, but irrelevant posts and/or ad-hominem criticism should be disallowed.   

Thanks, Nityananda  

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Sorry to hear this. I am not a list owner or a senior member, but I sent my request.

Ramakrishnan

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear List members,

Vishal had a complaint that Madhavji had participated in a petition that was put together to oppose

the Hindu parents in California text book case some fifteen years ago.  It is a question of an artificial

academic view versus a rational political view.  American textbooks are badly written and much of

the material on India does carry a bias.

There is a tendency by some to convert bvparishat to a social group by using unrestrained foul

language.  I as a learner and with my scientific discipline get pained to observe the degradation.

The question comes to observe how people of Indian origin argue and solve their differences.

I observe this with our mission here to teach Indian culture to high school students.

It is likely that Madhavji would not return to the list.  A list has no representative to apologize.

The concerned individuals may try to heal any hurt by reaching out.  It is a pure function of

experimenting how spiritual we are in our core beliefs of human behavior. Madhavji was well

respected in the list and I am begging him to reconsider joining back in the list.

I am copying Madhavji for his consideration.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra 

.    

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAH8aEvuxro8%3DRC4QurFS8AH9JJBjtnkphRbwvqjtrmoCU-X-%3DA%40mail.gmail.com.

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

1. Madhav ji, please be back in group.

 

2. What I learnt from way of Sri Krishna narrative with Shishupala and others : Never quit the field. 

 

      The ‘ jalpa, vitanda, nindaa….’ All will finally fail and fall.    

       Gita 12-18: tulya-ninda-stutir mauni santusto yena kenacit aniketah sthira-matir bhaktiman me priyo narah

 

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

[Ramesh Rao]

Words spoken, arrows released cannot be recalled... 

Broken vases cannot be put together...

Much harm was done to the Hindu cause in the CA textbook case by the Witzel, Wujastyk commandeered Hinduphobes...

Krishna leela it is.

The wise shall smile.

It is for humans to rue and regret.

Everything has consequences. 

The world turns/burns in the blink of an eye.

We shall be born again to fulfill our samskaras.

May Sri Hari's grace protect those who are going to lie awake, spending sleepless nights...

So be it.

Ramesh

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALw-kjU1GvCGZc_PyDLo9PBzas_-9L0ekhsiJK_KeTqx_NbSOw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Vipin Chaturvedi]

I also second Mishra jis opinion to request the admin to invite Prof. Deshapande back to the bvparishat. It’s a great loss if he does not come back! 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 24, 2021, at 7:07 PM, Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <b.ra...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAH8aEvuxro8%3DRC4QurFS8AH9JJBjtnkphRbwvqjtrmoCU-X-%3DA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rucha Kelkar]

Sorry to know this. I am neither a senior member nor a sanskrit scholar.

Everyday I look forward to read Professor Deshpande ji's poems on Shri Krishna. I am sure his verses bring much joy in our lives and we all learn a lot from his posts. 

In Professor Deshpande ji's poems where everyone search for Krishna are so enchanting and endearing. But, it is very sad to see that the poetic lines have become a reality.

This group is a source of invaluable knowledge where I learn something new every single day and the posts here have made invaluable contribution in my life. I consider myself very fortunate to be a member of this group. It would be extremely unfortunate if there is discord amongst list members.

A humble request and a sincere appeal to Professor Deshpande ji to be back in this group.

Many thanks and regards

Rucha Kelkar 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAOn3Y2QFuo2w37C2vnc6UezJTt4qQa0eQ5tFzSZabEZtRR26pw%40mail.gmail.com.

[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 6:53:45 AM UTC+5:30 Nityanand Misra wrote:

Dear list members

I came to know that Prof. Madhav Deshpande has left this mailing list.

First of all, is this true? Can a list owner check?

 

For many years, we learned from his scholarly posts

Agree with the above. Being a scholar, I am sure he learned a thing or two as well.

 

and enjoyed his poetic verses. Needless to say, it is a great loss for bvparishat.

It appears Prof. Deshpande was tired of answering questions which clearly did not deserve his time.

Whence this appearance? Only such "question" I saw incidentally was a comment by Megh about Biden - to which he responded amicably - https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/Bcs37LJIAAAJ . Definitely not a frequent occurance.

There was another instance concerning Vishal, pointed out by RNI at https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/3Ri47d9I_Ss/m/CUZEDA-gAwAJ , which might have triggered his exeunt. But that still is not a question.

 

I recall him writing “But this list has a tendency to drag me into unrelated disputes from time to time” in one of the threads recently.

Couldn't find this comment upon searching. I have not observed this "tendency" at all. The couple of instances of Vishal needling him hardly forms a "tendency". Even there, we can't necessarily  say "unrelatedly", without knowing past events (which even I don't know well).

My main point here is that there isn't only one side to a story; and we should not necessarily begrudge peoples' preference to leave rather than acknowledge or explain (let alone regret) past actions. On the one hand, this may entail - in our own selfish interest as students - pretending not to remember the past. On the other, it may mean coming to terms with paying the price in terms of lost knowledge, given the importance of having consequences for certain types of activism.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I was not able to respond in detail  except  allowing and /or disallowing messages to the list and give short replies earlier than this as I was travelling.

Aadaraniya Sri Ntyanand -ji suggested a more active moderation of the list. I already shared the modus operandi of the moderation of the list. If Sri Nityanand-ji has any recommendation for changes in that process , we will certainly consider making all such changes in the moderating process of the list. 

On 30th July, 2021, addressing Sri Nityanand-ji I said as follows : 

Aadaraniya Nityanand-ji,

We have been announcing the moderating procedure of the list, time and again. 

Not all mails arrive here after going through moderator's control. 

Most mails arrive here without getting moderated. 

All new members are moderated and they are changed to non-moderated or " allowed' category when they are found to be 1. frequently posting 2. not found to be impolite , indecent, unparliamentary in their posts. 

Even such an "allowed' member when found to be violating the netiquette, public norms of politeness etc., is brought back under moderated category for a temporary period. After observing the member for some time, after confirming that the member mended his ways, member is again brought into the allowed category. 

This is done for a balance between 1. reducing the burden coming from moderating every post 2. needs of moderation, like avoiding irrelevant posts, indecent posts, impolite behaviour posts etc. 

When a member is brought back from moderated to allowed category, it is done in good faith. 

But if a member is found to be repeatedly needing to get moderated, the admin committee shall think of some extreme step to avoid the repeated misbehaviour. 

I have been getting messages like that of yours below from many members individually addressed to me about such mutually disrespectful use of language. 

My view is that one can strongly articulate his view, his paksha without resorting to impolite, harsh language. Bitter debates need not have bitter language. powerful debates need not be verbally violent. 

In any case, thanks for drawing the attention of the list and the admin to this aspect that deserves attention.  

Regards,

Not just Sri Nityanand-ji, any suggestion of a change in this process that can make the moderation MORE ACTIVE is welcome. 

Thanks and regards,

Nagaraj

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAB0bV2xfXEj41poM3fMOdLyhEFRgq%2B5sWa3Mro0GG2%3DWi2pDPg%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership

Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Paturi Garu,

Moderation if converted into dictatorship would stifle the free speech that many in this group claim to stand for. I was not aware of the background of this case until I read some of the back and forth and discrepancies in the words of some scholars. Ad-hominem is a very western construct that ignores the fact that if the pAtra is impure so are its contents. Next comes the issue of "politeneness"...I fail to see when calling a spade a spade became impolite. 

If anyone has doubts in this regard all they have to do is revisit the episode of Rama giving a tongue lashing to rShi Jabali. The truth should not twisted for good or bad. Are we really so advanced  that we consider ourselves better than Rama? I for certain think not.

 I think the scholar in question should be given the opportunity to explain himself so that some of this infamy (if such it is) may go away for good and not revisit like a persistent nightmare.

Yes. A scholar is very valuable. But at the cost of dharma/truth/fairness? I think not.

Better to be a Vikarna and die on the battlefield with one's honor intact than be a superannuated Bhishma pitamaha and watch the chirharan of Draupadi (dharma) while having the power to destroy the problem at source. 

The Mahabharata has taught many things the most important of which is this:

*** The patience of great men (Yudhisthira/The long suffering dharmic Hindu) has disastrous consequences. It is better to call a spade a spade than tap dance around inequity and wait for the momentum to build up and become a flood that brings the ocean to the mountain-tops.

My fullest respect to Vishal Agarwal .

Kind Regards,

Venkat 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri Nityanand-ji wrote in the initiating message of this thread :

"It appears Prof. Deshpande was tired of answering questions which clearly did not deserve his time. I recall him writing “But this list has a tendency to drag me into unrelated disputes from time to time” in one of the threads recently." 

I would answer questions that do not deserve my time. That is how I can save myself from getting unduly tired. I don't remember any member pressurising Prof. Deshpande to answer any question. 

The following words quoted by Sri Nityanand-ji 

 “But this list has a tendency to drag me into unrelated disputes from time to time” in one of the threads recently." 

are from the thread titled " A new dawn" 

at https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/gDh288qDAwAJ

It was an old thread started with a verse by Prof. Madhav Deshpande on 8th November, 2020. 

The verse outwardly has no reference to any political event.  But in the ensuing discussion, Prof. Deshpande in the post at 

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/XRBt24jfAQAJ

appears to have admitted that there was a political suggestion in it.  He appears to have indicated that it was about the US elections in response to a post https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/XRBt24jfAQAJ

In the ensuing discussion Prof. Deshpande was amply encouraged to continue posting verses. 

The thread was revived through Sri Megh -ji's post https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/UwnSpKxfAgAJ

in which he said   

I am not sure verses might help India protect her interests in dealing with these weapons. 

citing a twitter post : 

https://twitter.com/WIONews/status/1428777496431022083?s=20

This happened because  the same topic of  US elections is back into discussions in the wake of Afghan developments. People started wondering if there was really 'a new dawn'. 

It was as part of this fresh discussion that Prof. Deshpande said what is quoted by Sri Nityanand-ji. 

Anyone who follows this thread understands that the first post by Prof. Deshpande itself took BVP into US politics /elections or brought US elections /politics into BVP. 

I think members saying that what was thought to be a new dawn is not really so , it is any ad hominem comment. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sorry, correction :

I would not answer questions that do not deserve my time

not 

I would answer questions that do not deserve my time

[Vishal Agarwal]

Surely we must not judge Ravana from his Shivastotras, Hitler from his paintings or the Taliban through their press conferences. Perhaps some list members have judged the persona of someone hated by a section of his own local Indian/Hindu American community because he has consistently not just refused to raise his voice against racism and Hinduphobia but has actually been an active party to this reprehensible behavior by his colleagues and politician cum historians. Today's Truschke's stand on shoulders of people like him, whose vyakarana and chhanda proficiency not-withstanding, they do not have our well being in their heart.

1. In an interview given to his college magazine, he emphasized how westernized he was that he could visit India only as a tourist.

2. For a while, he was on the governing body of that un-named racist list where 20/21 expelled members were of Indian origin. On that list, he was consistently on the side of the lynch mob who harangued anyone that said anything in favor of RJB (a cause dear to your Guru as well) and against AMT.

3. His intro to Indian history syllabus in his college had prominent sections on supporting AMT and condemning Hindutva.

4. He collaborated with R Thapar on a volume that had only 4 authors.

5. He would triumphantly announce works of R S Sharma, R Kocchar etc on Indology list as 'the best that have come out of India in recent years' (implying that Indian scholarship is shoddy per se).

6. He worked against the interests of our children by being a prominent spokesperson opposing edits for improving presentation of India and Hindu Dharma in CA textbooks. For instance, other than Witzel, he was the only other academic cited against us in a WSJ article by Dan Golden. Likewise, I have copies of other news articles where he aligned with the likes of Wujastyk, Doniger and J Kripal.

7. He co-signed political petitions (masquerading as academic petitions) against our interests with the likes of D N Jha, Thapar, Witzel and so on.

I could go on and on. But so much in 5 minutes, as someone who has followed him for 25 years. Are we so bygones, as a community of 1.1 billion (or even 1.4 billion) who should feel upset that haters indulging in vyakarana and chhanda have left our list? Did he EVER clarify his hateful behavior? Did he EVER raise his voice against injustices done towards us by his colleagues? He is not apolitical. He is VERY political. There is no evidence that he regrets what he has done to harm our children.

Let me leave it at that.

Vishal

______

--

[Megh Kalyanasundaram]

Namaste Nagaraj ji, 

Thank you for taking time to write the post you did. 

Namaste all, 

Since my name has come up in this thread (but not for just that reason), I feel obliged to respond. This post of mine is not intended as a response to any preceding post. 

'A new dawn' is a thread that I too see, unless anyone can point to what I might be missing, as having been initiated by Dr Deshpande on Nov 8 2020: https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/lAqTahzIAQAJ

Insofar as I can see, none of my posts in that thread actually includes any question* to anyone. 

Immediately below is Dr Deshpande's last post in the same thread, the body of which ends with "Best wishes" and which makes the context of his original post, in his own words, again, very clear, which I again appreciate now and which I had also thanked him for back then. 

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/l8sK4t59AgAJ

Anyone who has followed the thread fully would know that the above post of Dr Deshpande, was, in part, a correction to his post just prior, to which I had responded with specifics:

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/kvkj3818AgAJ 

In the same thread, I had written a post (included below) where I had reasoned that just as Dr Deshpande had chosen to express, in BVP, his worry about US elections and its outcomes for people living in USA, I had similarly expressed my worry about the same election and its outcomes for me in India, given recent developments courtesy some of the decisions of the leader elected through the same election:

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/hXHfsp9lAgAJ

In the same thread, Dr Deshpande had expressed "how any of this connects to my Krishna verses is beyond my comprehension," which too was immediately responded to (see image below), since he himself invoked his "Krishna verses," which I certainly did not invoke or even remotely allude to: 

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/u1tfZb17AgAJ

Best,

Megh

* Not that including questions is by itself a crime but I certainly neither intended nor included a question in any of my posts in this thread.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9eYVn%3DVd%2BvqwZ418_3hhi3nuTn6pMDjx1iJ8TtA4q-AJvw%40mail.gmail.com.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 7:00 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Surely we must not judge Ravana from his Shivastotras, Hitler from his paintings or the Taliban through their press conferences. Perhaps some list members have judged the persona of someone hated by a section of his own local Indian/Hindu American community because he has consistently not just refused to raise his voice against racism and Hinduphobia but has actually been an active party to this reprehensible behavior by his colleagues and politician cum historians. Today's Truschke's stand on shoulders of people like him, whose vyakarana and chhanda proficiency not-withstanding, they do not have our well being in their heart.

A few requests as someone interested in meta-indology

 

1. In an interview given to his college magazine, he emphasized how westernized he was that he could visit India only as a tourist.

2. For a while, he was on the governing body of that un-named racist list where 20/21 expelled members were of Indian origin.

RISA or Indology or something else?

On that list, he was consistently on the side of the lynch mob who harangued anyone that said anything in favor of RJB (a cause dear to your Guru as well) and against AMT

 

3. His intro to Indian history syllabus in his college had prominent sections on supporting AMT and condemning Hindutva.

Could you pass a copy?

 

4. He collaborated with R Thapar on a volume that had only 4 authors.

5. He would triumphantly announce works of R S Sharma, R Kocchar etc on Indology list as 'the best that have come out of India in recent years' (implying that Indian scholarship is shoddy per se).

6. He worked against the interests of our children by being a prominent spokesperson opposing edits for improving presentation of India and Hindu Dharma in CA textbooks. For instance, other than Witzel, he was the only other academic cited against us in a WSJ article by Dan Golden. Likewise, I have copies of other news articles where he aligned with the likes of Wujastyk, Doniger and J Kripal.

Documents pertaining to these would be very valuable - should be archived. Please upload to archive.org and send a link.

 

7. He co-signed political petitions (masquerading as academic petitions) against our interests with the likes of D N Jha, Thapar, Witzel and so on.

Please - this is very valuable material. Same request.

 

I could go on and on. But so much in 5 minutes, as someone who has followed him for 25 years. Are we so bygones, as a community of 1.1 billion (or even 1.4 billion) who should feel upset that haters indulging in vyakarana and chhanda have left our list? Did he EVER clarify his hateful behavior? Did he EVER raise his voice against injustices done towards us by his colleagues? He is not apolitical. He is VERY political. There is no evidence that he regrets what he has done to harm our children.

Let me leave it at that.

Vishal

______

On Tuesday, August 24, 2021, 08:30:04 PM CDT, Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear list members

I came to know that Prof. Madhav Deshpande has left this mailing list. For many years, we learned from his scholarly posts and enjoyed his poetic verses. Needless to say, it is a great loss for bvparishat.

It appears Prof. Deshpande was tired of answering questions which clearly did not deserve his time. I recall him writing “But this list has a tendency to drag me into unrelated disputes from time to time” in one of the threads recently.

I request the list owners and senior members to please make a formal request to him to join the group again.

I also request for a more active moderation of the list so that we do not lose other scholars like him. Scholarly posts (and even scholarly criticism) should be welcome, but irrelevant posts and/or ad-hominem criticism should be disallowed.   

Thanks, Nityananda  

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Vishvas /विश्वासः

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Vishal,

I love your passion and respect your diligence in studying and interpreting

the scriptures. We have to understand that to navigate through academia

in a western system is a balancing act. Sometimes survival instincts do

win over the internal beliefs. I do see it every day, people get tortured for

survival in their middle age.

Many scholars of western origin face artificial walls in order to be "tamed".

I think Madhavji loves India as much as you and me, but apparently has done

activities which do not appear right. You can show better sense by understanding

and condoning.  Ignorance in the west can only be removed through our

scholarship and not  through isolation.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/1366225477.1420096.1629898242762%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Nityanand Misra]

On Wednesday, 25 August, 2021 at 4:15:17 pm UTC+5:30 विश्वासो वासुकेयः wrote:

I came to know that Prof. Madhav Deshpande has left this mailing list.

First of all, is this true? Can a list owner check?

 

Yes, it is true. Prof. Deshpande himself told me me. If I suspected it or did no have complete information, I would have said it. I do not make uncorroborated claims (like S L Bhyrappa mastering the entire Laghusiddhantakaumudi in four weeks) unlike some others.

  

and enjoyed his poetic verses. Needless to say, it is a great loss for bvparishat.

It appears Prof. Deshpande was tired of answering questions which clearly did not deserve his time.

Whence this appearance? Only such "question" I saw incidentally was a comment by Megh about Biden - to which he responded amicably - https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/Bcs37LJIAAAJ . Definitely not a frequent occurance.

Not necessarily in the recent past. But over time, there have been many questions and ad-hominem attacks on him as part of the cancel culture of which some people in this list are, knowingly or unknowingly, flagbearers. Anyway, this is my opinion and if you do not agree, it is fine.     

 

 

I recall him writing “But this list has a tendency to drag me into unrelated disputes from time to time” in one of the threads recently.

Couldn't find this comment upon searching.

You did not search well enough. The quote is right there in this message (in fact I copy-pasted it). As I said, I am not in the habit of making uncorroborated claims unlike some self-proclaimed sons of soil on this list.  

 

I have not observed this "tendency" at all. The couple of instances of Vishal needling him hardly forms a "tendency". Even there, we can't necessarily  say "unrelatedly", without knowing past events (which even I don't know well).

Again, I cannot help if you could not observe this tendencies which Prof. Madhav Deshpande did. 

 

My main point here is that there isn't only one side to a story; and we should not necessarily begrudge peoples' preference to leave rather than acknowledge or explain (let alone regret) past actions. On the one hand, this may entail - in our own selfish interest as students - pretending not to remember the past. On the other, it may mean coming to terms with paying the price in terms of lost knowledge, given the importance of having consequences for certain types of activism.

Agreed, there are multiple sides to a story, but there is only one (and ugly) side of cancel culture which infects the right as much as the left in my humble opinion.

I will not be responding further to you on this thread. Not that I do not want to, but I simply do not have the time for another debate with you. 

  

[K S Kannan]

If what Vishal Agarwal states is true, Prof. Madhav Deshpande

should long ago have been expelled from BVP.

Our history and heritage has long been witness to

acts of saboteurs as moles and sepoys.

"nahi tsaravyeṇa dāruṇā vinā paraśur vr̥kṣa-cchedanāya sampadyate."

नहि त्सरव्येण दारुणा विना परशुर् वृक्षच्छेदनाय सम्पद्यते  ।

As Upton Sinclair said so well: "A man cannot be made to understand a thing

when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Making a living out of Western patronage, ंMD cannot be expected

to be any better than being true to his salt there.

Rather than an honourable exit, if the learned professor is quitting BVP

hurling his  vile and undeserved imprecations, he is only to be deemed

a good riddance, after all. The only puzzle is why he had to

linger and meander in such a "hostile" environment

deep into years of his old age.

His ingratitude to BVP, which gave him

so much scope and for so long, is reprehensible to say the least.

KSKannan

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--

Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Nominated Member, Academic Committee, Kavi Kula Guru Kalidasa University, Ramtek.
Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.
Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.
Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[Nityanand Misra]

On Wednesday, 25 August, 2021 at 7:00:48 pm UTC+5:30 Vishal Agarwal wrote:

Surely we must not judge Ravana from his Shivastotras, Hitler from his paintings or the Taliban through their press conferences.

Dear Vishal Ji

I hope you are familiar with Godwin's law of Nazi analogies. The moment somebody brings in Nazis/Hitler/Taliban (or even Ravana in some contexts), the argument is no longer sound. 

 

Perhaps some list members have judged the persona of someone hated by a section of his own local Indian/Hindu American community because he has consistently not just refused to raise his voice against racism and Hinduphobia but has actually been an active party to this reprehensible behavior by his colleagues and politician cum historians.

How different is this from some left-liberals in India canceling Sachin Tendulkar some time ago for not raising his voice against casteism, atrocities, etc (as they claimed, not me).     

 

Today's Truschke's stand on shoulders of people like him, whose vyakarana and chhanda proficiency not-withstanding, they do not have our well being in their heart.

Our? Who all are you speaking for? Are you speaking as an individual or as a self-appointed representative?

 

1. In an interview given to his college magazine, he emphasized how westernized he was that he could visit India only as a tourist.

2. For a while, he was on the governing body of that un-named racist list where 20/21 expelled members were of Indian origin. On that list, he was consistently on the side of the lynch mob who harangued anyone that said anything in favor of RJB (a cause dear to your Guru as well) and against AMT.

Minor point: Why bring in somebody's Guru (or father or brother or family) into any of this. Anyway, it is gross understatement to say that RJB was a a cause dear to his heart. He fought actively for it including deposing in Allahabad High Court. RJB is a cause dear to my heart also. But how is that relevant to Prof. Deshpande quitting this group?  

 

3. His intro to Indian history syllabus in his college had prominent sections on supporting AMT and condemning Hindutva.

4. He collaborated with R Thapar on a volume that had only 4 authors.

5. He would triumphantly announce works of R S Sharma, R Kocchar etc on Indology list as 'the best that have come out of India in recent years' (implying that Indian scholarship is shoddy per se).

6. He worked against the interests of our children by being a prominent spokesperson opposing edits for improving presentation of India and Hindu Dharma in CA textbooks. For instance, other than Witzel, he was the only other academic cited against us in a WSJ article by Dan Golden. Likewise, I have copies of other news articles where he aligned with the likes of Wujastyk, Doniger and J Kripal.

7. He co-signed political petitions (masquerading as academic petitions) against our interests with the likes of D N Jha, Thapar, Witzel and so on.

Thanks for the charge-sheet, Vishal Ji. But that is what is it, a charge-sheet. I see many assumptions and leaps of imagination. But I will not argue. I will only say that even though Prof. Deshpande and I may be diametrically opposite when it comes to ideology or political leanings, but so what? What do you say of the late Charudeva Shastri, whose Arya Samaji position on Bhagavata Purana and many other issues was quite iconoclastic (and would be found highly objectionable by many Sanatanis) to say the least? What if he was a member of this list today? Would we come up with a similar charge-sheet and hound him over years? Is this Bharatiya-Vidvat-Parishad or Bharatiya-Dharma-Samsad?

 

I could go on and on. But so much in 5 minutes, as someone who has followed him for 25 years. Are we so bygones, as a community of 1.1 billion (or even 1.4 billion) who should feel upset that haters indulging in vyakarana and chhanda have left our list? Did he EVER clarify his hateful behavior? Did he EVER raise his voice against injustices done towards us by his colleagues? He is not apolitical. He is VERY political. There is no evidence that he regrets what he has done to harm our children.

I fail to see your point. But anyway, I will stop here for lack of time. My last post on this thread.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 9:24 PM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

My main point here is that there isn't only one side to a story; and we should not necessarily begrudge peoples' preference to leave rather than acknowledge or explain (let alone regret) past actions. On the one hand, this may entail - in our own selfish interest as students - pretending not to remember the past. On the other, it may mean coming to terms with paying the price in terms of lost knowledge, given the importance of having consequences for certain types of activism.

Agreed, there are multiple sides to a story, but there is only one (and ugly) side of cancel culture which infects the right as much as the left in my humble opinion.

To be clear, shrI mAdhav deshpANDe was not "cancelled". He quit of his own free will (likely in embarrassment, from what I make of this thread). 

That there is no "cancel culture" worth mentioning here is proven by the simple fact that I haven't been "cancelled" yet (not that it hasn't been tried by some "gentle learned" souls) for supporting AIT, calling to question moderator logic multiple times etc..

 

I will not be responding further to you on this thread. Not that I do not want to, but I simply do not have the time for another debate with you. 

  

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 9:24 PM Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, it is true. Prof. Deshpande himself told me me. If I suspected it or did no have complete information, I would have said it. I do not make uncorroborated claims (like S L Bhyrappa mastering the entire Laghusiddhantakaumudi in four weeks) unlike some others.

Forgot to mention: While I don't recall the specifics of the "S L Bhyrappa mastering the entire Laghusiddhantakaumudi in four weeks" claim, it appears that you refer to some old FB post by me. Well, if someone like R Ganesh says such a thing, I don't see a need to corroborate. On the other hand, if some northie makes up examples about schwa deletion in kannaDa/ SI languages - I'd definitely verify, given the high likelihood of error.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> His ingratitude to BVP, which gave him so much scope and for so long, is reprehensible to say the least.

--- Regarding BVP giving him so much for so long and gratitude or ingratitude ,  I want to share my observation as I noted. 

This is pertaining to the Sanskrit verses shared by Prof. Deshpande on this list. 

Prof. Deshpande was sharing his Krishna verses on Indology list and on on BVP simultaneously in the beginning, uto a very few shlokas. 

After a few shlokas, his sharing shlokas on the Indology list stopped. Reasons are not known. 

But it continued on BVP list for more than a thousand and a few hundred verses. Only a few in the beginning expressed boredom from this. Many expressed their admiration to him. Some were as regular as his shloka postings in their admiration. This was not possible from the other list as he stopped sharing there. 

He shared his shlokas on many other topics. BVP members showed their sahridayataa again. 

He shared a few on Indology list again on non-Krishna topics joining some wonderful young scholars from the west composing and sharing some beautiful shlokas. This shloka sharing by him and others was opposed and stopped on that list for the reasons of the tragic environment around due to COVID. 

But he was welcomed for the sharing of the same shlokas and more and more of them on BVP. 

If I were he, I would have certainly acknowledged the platform, encouragement, admiration , bhaavuka and rasika company and discussion provided this way by BVP. 

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[Bijoy Misra]

Prof Kannan,

We should not hold scholars to political litmus tests.

There is a vested interest in the west to bring foreigners

to india.  But the origin of Sanskrit language itself

remains unsolved.  It appears indigenous, but we don't

have concrete scientific investigations yet on the topic.

To target Prof Deshpande on this score is unfortunate

In any case a scholar should have entry in any forum

of scholarship.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

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[Ganesh R]

NamaskaaraH, 

This is just a clarification: I have nowhere said/written that Dr. S. L. Bhairappa has MASTERED laghusiddhaantakaumudi, let alone in a short span of four weeks. As for my knowledge goes, not even he himself has made any such claims. But it is a fact that he took lessons on Sanskrit grammar and lexicon based on laghukaumudi and amarakosha along with a study of upanishads under Sri. H. V. Nagaraja Rao, an eminent Sanskrit scholar, speciallyknown for his prowess in grammar and poetics. 

With warm regards 

Ganesh

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

" But the origin of Sanskrit language itself

remains unsolved.  It appears indigenous, but we don't have concrete scientific investigations yet on the topic.

To target Prof Deshpande on this score is unfortunate"

??????

Where is this topic touched here, sir ? Let us not digress unnecessarily. 

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[Ramesh Rao]

There is not much more to add to this discussion except maybe a few precautions we can take, and a few observations we can make:

Precautions:

1. In social media, including in emails, we tend to rush to judgement and/or to harsh speech. Hitavaachana and priyavaachana will help. Soochanaa and parusha are seductive and should be avoided as much as possible.

2. Disagreements, if personal, should be taken up back-channel so that we do not threaten each other's face in public/in front of others.

Observations:

1. I have been in American academe for 35 years, and while I understand the pressure, especially in R1 universities, to cater to powerful movements/interests/groups, I have also seen that Hindu-centric/supportive faculty rarely speak up, let alone stick their necks out, whereas Hinduphobic folks have no qualms about publicizing their political and ideological affiliations, likes and dislikes, and sign on to a variety of petitions, speak to the media, etc.

2. Vishal Agarwal keeps closer tabs on these matters, but what is disheartening was the unwillingness of most Hindu-centric scholars to have their voices heard during the California textbook debate. By keeping silent they acquiesced to the agenda of the Hinduphobic scholars and activists. Similarly, now that there is a "Dismantling Hindutva" conference scheduled for Sept 10-12 (Ganesha/Gauri pooja time), and some 40 universities/departments are said to be supporting this blatant attack on Hindus/Hinduism in the guise of targeting Hindutva, there is not a pip from those who should be making their voices heard. They seem to care more for their promotion/tenure/awards than to true scholarship.

3. If senior academics/scholars like Prof. Deshpande not only refuse to come to the aid of Hindu students/Hindus/Hinduism but actively encourage the Hinduphobic scholars then we get what we now see in the Western study of Hindus/Hinduism -- a no-holds-barred program of demonizing us.

4. Disagreements about interpreting a text one way or another is not the same as the Hindu demonizing project now in full force that combines the enormous power and clout of monopolist, supremacist, ideological, and violent forces. 

Regards,

Ramesh

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[Vishal Agarwal]

Dr. Mishra,

This is my last post to this list on this topic as well. I will respond to others privately, if needed. Others too can write to me privately.

To keep quiet and play the game along with Hinduphobic Indologists is one thing. To actually work with them actively to create a Hinduphobic system is a totally different thing. Most of the people defending him or giving him the benefit of doubt are simply not aware of his numerous antics during his active professional life. He who complains about hostility here might well remember his own karma in the past. He too created a hostile environment deliberately for dissenters in the past. Krishna taught us that even those who condone and keep quiet are on the side of Adharma. Here, we are speaking of someone who was like Karna or Vikarna, egging on Duryodhana further in misdeeds.

Bharatiya Vidvaans cannot work indefinitely in a bubble because there are other political scholars constantly creating a hostile environment and collaborating with, promoting, endorsing the very people are belittling the vidvaans. People like Thapars, Jhas, R S Sharmas, MDs, Witzels are killing the ecosystem in which our Vidvaans can fluorish.

If you worked for the British sarkar, and were asked to fire at your own countrymen, you could either resign (and become unemployed) or just follow orders to shoot. Dr Mishra is defending someone who has done the latter. 

You have collaborated with Witzel a lot. Doesn't he say, "There is politics everywhere, in every walk of life?" Giving interviews to belittle Hindu parents (and implying that we are ignorant about our own faith) asking for improvements in school textbooks was not simply politics, it was Hindumisia. I lived in California at that time. My child was a potential victim and so were children of many of my friends there.

Just recently, the PEW survey had 90% Hindus respond that our faith believes in One Divine Power (even if the majority added that the Power might manifest in many ways). Per this scholar's interview to WSJ, all these 90% respondents are ignorant or are Hindu Nationalists. If he decided to enter the kitchen, he should be willing to take the heat. Did he ever quit any Indology list for blatant racism there?

End of my comments on this topic on this list.

Regards,

Vishal

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

There was a thread on BVP that includes posts by Sri Vishal-ji on the California text book issue, 2005 at

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/PtCz9JhPZYY/m/XnVmkX31DAAJ

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[Bijoy Misra]

Nagrajji,

I wrote in AMT and OIT context.

Madhavji appears to be sympathetic to AMT.

AMT has little basis, but a scientific analysis of vedic Sanskrit is required

to understand the origin of Sanskrit language.  We are trying, ever so slow.

So is my opinion.  I am sorry if I digressed.

Hope Madhavji may reconsider joining back.

Best regards,

Bijoy

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

No sir, this thread is not about AMT , OIT at all. That issue is not even remotely related to the present topic on hand, please.

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Vishal,

Michael Witzel and I are colleagues in the University.

I like his sustained scholarship, bit disapprove of his

unscientific theories.  My view is that any scholar should not

be tasked for his social opinions.  All kinds of opinionated

people walk on the Cambridge streets,   My view could be

wrong, I have only very limited observation in this area..

I do keep away from topics where I am not qualified.

Letely, I concentrate in our work with teaching India to High

school students via India Discovery Center.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Prof. Misra, 

I liked it when you said, " 

I do keep away from topics where I am not qualified."

I appreciate all the good work you are doing for youngsters.

Sri Vishal-ji is talking about a 2005 development related to school children only. 

He seems to be qualified with regard to that topic. 

Let us leave it to him.

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

None of the posts that Prof Deshpande posted on the list calls for his expulsion. When members like Prof Kannan or Vishalji and Visvasji mince no words  many a times on different controversial threads use  'language' even when it means the there no concluding evidences to prove most of what they say  They continue to post as they like. Can you show me any one post of Prof Deshpande on the list where he uses such language.  All views are just views and no one view is the last or concluding view or argument. I am neither a supporter or Prof Deshapande or know him personally or know what he does or think in US. Neither do I know what or Vishvasji or Vishalji  do in the US. I will always respect  them as good and sound scholars. They know what they are writing about May be I don't know. I don't wish to know The list if I may suggest should focus only on matters pertaining to Sanskrit and Indic studies in a way that suits an academic forum. That would be best way out. I will not be posting further or will be discussing further on this topic

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

[L Srinivas]

I'm very disappointed that Prof Deshpande has left the list. During his time in the list, people engaged very little with him on his primary area of expertise i.e., Paninian Studies and not at all on his secondary area of expertise i.e., socio-linguistics. He's also extremely knowledgeable on the educational and intellectual atmosphere of 19th century Pune. He doesnt talk about stuff he knows unless he is drawn out. He's also rather tech savvy having designed two nice looking Sanskrit/Vedic fonts way back in the early 90s. I'm sure most people in the group did not know this.

A scholar needs to be looked up to for his scholarship alone. Be that as it may.

The people who are attacking Prof Deshpande, with the exception of one whose posts I have seen for 20 years now, are ignoring a large part of his contributions to this group. I don"t know what they profess except a nebulous Hindu-ness who hate all kinds of Hindus except their own kind. One set hates Hindus who live in America, another set hates Tamil Hindus, another set hates 'northies' etc etc.. The list is endless. These people just remind me of the destructiveness of the likes of CPI ML (Charu Mazumdar) whose biggest enemies have always been CPI ML (Kanu Sanyal) or some such faction and never the 'class enemy'!!

Perhaps this group never deserved Prof Deshpande in the first place.

Srini

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 8:26 AM L Srinivas <lns2...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

The people who are attacking Prof Deshpande, with the exception of one whose posts I have seen for 20 years now, are ignoring a large part of his contributions to this group. I don"t know what they profess except a nebulous Hindu-ness who hate all kinds of Hindus except their own kind. One set hates Hindus who live in America, another set hates Tamil Hindus, another set hates 'northies' etc etc.. The list is endless.

Speaking for myself, I "hate" (ie- am amused by) charlatans like you who mischaracterize other people as haters. (No one except me has used the term "northies" here in the recent past.)

[Achyut Karve]

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021, 09:02 Achyut Karve, <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends,

The posts in response to the news of Madhav Deshpande leaving this group has brought forth the deep political divisions within the members of this group.  Thus except for a few who may not be so motivated the aim and intensions of this group are clear.  They are not academic.  

It is no news that the academia is infested with latent political objectives sponsored by Universities for example the student feuds in JNU. The Universities have become places of ideological indoctrination, moresoever political parties in the search for cadre infiltrate.

I am a devout adherent of Marx's method and that does not in any way come between my investigation into Panian phonetics.  On the contrary the Marxian method has helped me in understanding the nature of akshara.

There can be only one Dharma else it is Adharma.  Most scholars on this group engage in opinions rather than facts.  Even with respect to Deshpandeji his reflection into Sanskrit phonology appear to be guided by an agenda.  Once there occurs a divergence between theory and practice then the Pandora's Box opens.  

Philosophy starts where science (shastra) ends finally leading to ideological divisions. 

पर धर्म भयावः.  After migrating out of India should these people be called Indians.  Is this too not a kind of castesim i.e to identify one by place of origin if not by birth.  Dual identities corupt the mind more and many a time lead one into difficulties like the one Deshpandeji is facing.  

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

> Perhaps this group never deserved Prof Deshpande in the first place.

All relationships including memberships of groups are always mutual and deservedness too is also mutual. Group is always bigger than an individual member. This applies more particularly to a group of highly accomplished scholars such as BVP. Sour grapes statements deserve just that much value.  

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[R. N. iyengar]

Respected Founders of BVP: Please stand up!

I fully agree with Ajit. Calling for ex post facto expulsion after Prof.MD has left, is ridiculous to say the least. Has BVP been turned into a fundamentalist indeological group where only one type of ideas will be discussed as approved by some self appointed people? 

I have received quite a few messages  in my personal mail box also.  I wrote in another thread "..... What has Krishna Bhakti to do with  problems about academics organizing conferences? We all know who writes on Krishna Bhakti. If one has the scholarship to criticize his 1000 verses on traditional lines one can do so. But passing sarcastic and hateful judgements on the person is not Hindu Dharma. This calls for a proper apology on the part of Sri Vishal Agarwal."  Vishal has personally responded to me and I will not go into that.

All said and done, Vishal Agarwal for reasons best known to him chose the wrong place and time to take revenge on a well known academician after his retirement. Many members of BVP are upset by this incident.  If some one leaves the forum it is a personal choice. I have nothing to say on that. But to use the BVP forum for settling old scores and then rationalizing it by taking indirect support from others is unethical. I still believe Vishal should apologize to BVP, for sullying the atmosphere here. 

If  BVP becomes political the time is not far away for the filter

नीरक्षीरविवेके तु  हंसो  हंसः  बको बकः॥

Thanks

RN Iyengar

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri Ajit-ji, 

Let us not use words that don't apply to the present situation. 

No expulsion happened in the present case. 

There are earlier occasions too when Prof. Deshpande expressed his intention to leave the group.  He was brought back through requests from the owners of the list. 

It may be remembered that when the Sri Vishal-ji brought the California text book issue of 2005, in the thread 

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/PtCz9JhPZYY/m/XnVmkX31DAAJ,

I immediately took the same action that we take in such circumstances through my immediate response in 

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/PtCz9JhPZYY/m/bPpWFqn1DAAJ

I used sternest words possible in that post as follows

Dear members,

Many of the recent messages in the thread have arrived during my absence when I was away on my daily teaching work. I am just back. 

Some unmoderated members like Sri Vishal-ji have been sending messages that needed moderation. I apologise for their consequences. 

All the members making unnecessarily insensitive messages to this forum shall be brought under moderation. 

I request all members to stop sending messages to this thread. 

This thread is being immediately closed. 

Violators will be controlled through appropriate measures. 

Nagaraj

Moderator. 

I showed how US politics were brought into BVP by the thread " a new dawn" 

You may remember that you were the first one to point out that in your post at 

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/80xfl0HZAQAJ

You said 

I appreciate your poetry and versification. Does US Politics matter to people in India not much. I am not personally interested in any politics. US stand on Indian issues will remain the same irrespective of who the President is. George W. Bush and Barack Obama, the United States has demonstrated accommodation to India's core national interests and acknowledged outstanding concerns. You may say Joe Biden won but the race  You cannot dismiss  7,08,12,803 or 47% of popular vote that's in favor of the current President.  Are you Versifying as a person who has affiliation to a political party or a US citizen who knows Sanskrit

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

As BVP always has been you were immediately accommodative and said 

Please Continue to write and Post My mail was not intended for you to stop writing or posting. apologies if it has conveyed such a message.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

in

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/dA-Gj53zAQAJ

Can anyone show any example where only one side of the argument was allowed on this group and the other side disallowed ? 

The only reason for disallowing a post was irrelevance to the thread or impoliteness in the expression. 

I even posted a thread on " how to respectfully differ " 

But when someone repeatedly leaves or expresses desire to leave the group, the group may feel at some point that we need not pressurise the member too much against his will and wish. 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Yes I was the first to ask a question on that post. My intention was to understand the poet's intention. The poet explained his intention and there It ends I did sling mud on the poet aor any other member or took sides on a any view.

On expulsion I was referring to Prof Kannas mail on expulsion where he decides to become judge of a case when ideally such a judge should take recluse from pronouncing judgements.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Yes, Sri Ajit-ji. You were right in trying to know the intentions of the poet. In fact, that is how we came to know that US elections were being responded to by that verse. 

I didn't see any mud slinging even later in the entire thread. 

The same US election results that are responded to by the verse got discussed in the thread. 

As Prof. Kannan's post mentioning expulsion, he is not part of the BVP management. His statement can not be taken as BVP management's. His if clause statement seems to be his emotional response to the information shared by Sri Vishal. That response and his emotions in it are completely his. 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I too get emotional always and especially during pandemic and post pandemic times. But I refrain from using language against any one. I may ask an uncomfortable question but that doesn't give the right for others to use language and make claims which can neither be proven or disproved. The member to whom a question was asked responded and there the matteri ended. What happens in The US happens there. What happens in India happens here. This mailing list is designed to promote knowledge specifically on matters related to Sanskrit studies  and support academia. We are not the voice of Hindus nor do we claim we are. Those who are determined to promote and propagate their own agendas are welcome to make their decisions. This group is meant for all lovers of Sanskrit and those who do serious studies in different areas of Sanskrit research. Poetry is considered as the best form of speech.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Yes,  Sri Ajit-ji. " What happens in The US happens there. What happens in India happens here  "

"Poetry is considered as the best form of speech."

That form of speech is what brought US politics into BVP .   Unfortunately ? or fortunately ? 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I donot wish to get into vitanda vada. What I have said I have said. If you want to listen you may else all ate free to write what they wish and mudsling and civil at each other. The ball is in your court.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I am all prepared to take action against the member who did mud slinging in that thread that brought politics, that too of US into the list, if I can see such a post in that thread or you or some other member can bring such a post in that thread to my notice. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

As per taking positions, there were series of posts counter arguing with Sri Nilesh Oak's position with regard to chronology. Prof. R N Iyengar too participated in the discussion in support of one of the sides. Prof. Ramesh Rao who started the thread on the conference in US on Dismantling Global Hindutva himself repeatedly brought to the notice of the list how Sri Nilesh is not responding on the list and is mocking at the list members on social media. We would have allowed Sri Nilesh's posts if he posted on the list. He chose not to. When he used impolite words on the list, he was given stern warning.  He apologised immediately. He is continuing to choose not to respond on the list. That is his choice. But rejoinders to his position have never been disallowed on the list. 

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

With this post my writing should not continue  thank you for responding 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

👍 🙏. 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

namaste,

Some disagreement with what shrI ajit and others have said with regards to politics in this thread -

Eg. "list if I may suggest should focus only on matters pertaining to Sanskrit and Indic studies in a way that suits an academic forum."

- Political and geo-political thought is very much part of bhAratIya vidvattA since ancient days.

- There can be serious scholarship when it comes to politics and geopolitics. Example, take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwrXq1EzWio , which I (indirectly) quoted in my post https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/wDlPYRQXh0M/m/hdXgGDhzAwAJ .

- Sanskrit and Indic studies does not mean regurgitating vyAsa and kauTilya endlessly. It may involve critically examining and selectively imbibing new things from other cultures (eg. Dutch studies in Japan) and theories (including Marxism). This is the spirit with which the likes of BG Tilak worked.

- Scholarship is a tool in politics - this should be recognized and countered when necessary.

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:56 AM R. N. iyengar <narayana...@gmail.com> wrote:

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--

--
Vishvas /विश्वासः

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

I fully agree with Prof. Bijoy Misras position. It does not matter if opinions of two scholars do not see eye to eye.

But the  etiquette of respecting another scholar cannot be replaced with the norms of ‘demeaning – denigrating -disrespecting another scholar’.  

The history of Indian academia has  enough proofs on lopsided scholarship and people.  

<  On Wednesday, August 25, 2021, 01:06:05 PM CDT, Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:  

 

Prof Kannan,

 

We should not hold scholars to political litmus tests.    There is a vested interest in the west to bring foreigners to india.  But the origin of Sanskrit language itself

remains unsolved.  It appears indigenous, but we don't have concrete scientific investigations yet on the topic.  To target Prof Deshpande on this score is unfortunate

In any case a scholar should have entry in any forum  of scholarship.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra    >  

 

It is left to the wisdom, vision and powers that ink their signature for money movement and money growth using ‘Religion-Language – Faith Belief Identity models’ to  build   a  futuristic institution with fully backed HEI (Higher Education Institution) with adequate proactive private investments  to  harvest  political-and polity based ideology to help the global communities, where scholars warming the named chair will work for pleasing the ‘ Board of Investors steering the policy’  who set up  the political –polity- profit –pride  litmus tests.   Talk sans Action is travesty of ‘ Karma-yoga’.

 

How the rest of the world sees at this and responds reacts with what language is matters of no concern in such endeavours, exercising ‘ Freedom to practice a profession of education enterprise for profit’.  Such a model does not justify million dollar chairs crafted out to save a leaf under a large tree. The roots of tree  does not selectively  feed and support the individual leaf on the preferred branch .’

 

Regards

BVK Sastry  

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Yes I hope this will be tenor and language all members always use. Then proper discussions can take place and allow experts on this list to write. No  profound scholars  who are members  of this list will be encouraged to write if condusive atmosphere  for discussions  is not made by members. It's our group and let's keep it as always an inclusive group where even a devil has a chance to be benefitted from profound knowledge  which are in all our ancient  texts

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

You said it, Sri Ajit-ji. 

I was pained when colossal scholars like Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murthy , Prof. Kapil Kapur left  (though I was not moderating when Prof. Kapil Kapur left, I didn't see any attempts of requesting him to come back too) )because of the mocking or harsh language used here. 

Members are witness to my repeated requests for respectful differing and debating. There are many members here who were brought from 'allowed' to 'moderated'  by me on account of bad etiquette. The whole list is witness to my clear and categorical stand and repeated request for polite communication 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:51 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

You said it, Sri Ajit-ji. 

I was pained when colossal scholars like Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murthy , Prof. Kapil Kapur left  (though I was not moderating when Prof. Kapil Kapur left, I didn't see any attempts of requesting him to come back too) )because of the mocking or harsh language used here. 

I am curious to know what happened in the above cases.

 

Members are witness to my repeated requests for respectful differing and debating. There are many members here who were brought from 'allowed' to 'moderated'  by me on account of bad etiquette. The whole list is witness to my clear and categorical stand and repeated request for polite communication 

I am all for polite communication with a couple of caveats:

- If someone crosses the line, one should not be blamed for responding in the same manner. ("No first strike" principle.)

- One should be free to harshly and clearly criticize bad ideas - without getting to the person proposing them. (There is no shortage of almost spam-level nonsensical posts by certain people where credibility is attached to the said idea merely by not being clearly opposed here.)

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Dear Prof Paturi ji

I am at pained  to read posts like this. In fact members like me are great full  when profound and great scholars take time to write on this list. I request them to continue  to write. I hope this will be last of your such posts on this list and members will write posts in polite and considerate manner. Hate the sin not the sinner and write hate or disagreement s in  a way it should be written  so that scholars  who have diffetent view too can write. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

👍 can not agree more. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

That said, we should also clarify to those who participated in the verse on US elections that this is not against them because there was no impolite post, to my knowledge, there. We should not make the innocent feel guilty in the process of pointing at the guilt of the guilty. 

[K S Kannan]

As Prof. Paturi (NP) has rightly pointed out, my response was a conditional

starting with "If". Even though I have not personally been able to verify

all the claims of Vishal Agarwal-ji (VA), he is not known to have made any irresponsible statement

that he cannot support with evidence. In fact, he already has produced some of it.

And apparently he has much more stock than he has released already

as he has been keeping track of things for over two decades, as per his own claim.

The case I was making for was one of my personal assessment,

as rightly pointed out by Prof. Paturi, again; the only difference being that

it was not emotional.

And why should I/anybody sit in judgement? I can suggest what I think is right;

what I think BVP deserves. BVP can also assess others' assessments.

And who is infallible ?

If a member of BVP has, in his academic capacity and role (in his vidvat, that is), done something

which is to the detriment of Bharatiya heritage and its dignity, a member of Bharatiya Vidvat Parishat

has every reason to point to the same and suggest some action. In the past also, many have sought

moderation of posts even when there were mild violations. My personal assessment in the present

context is, as of VA, that the violation is gross, deserving some stern action. That is only

a suggestion, not a demand. Actually, it is not even a suggestion for some action now; it is one

that could have been appropriate right in the past.

An abettor is also a partaker of crime too.

सभा वा न प्रवेष्टव्या, वक्तव्यं वा समञ्जसम् ।

अब्रुवन् विब्रुवन् वापि नरो भवति किल्बिषी ॥

is an injunction from premier Bharatiya texts.

There may be members who may want to invite the chelas of Trushke and Pollock into BVP.

There will surely be members who could suggest to the contrary, bearing in mind

the essential interests of BVP. My assessment is that those who have no intention

to act aright even when they have had an easy opportunity and occasion to,

and on the contrary collude with those who malign our heritage on account of

their racism and supremacism, should be considered despicable.  In this,

I agree with VA.

Knowledge of Sanskrit grammar and ability to compose verses by themselves

do not count for a very great merit. If that alone suffices, why would

Ajit-ji say why US politics here? And why would NP concur? (But all the same,

if the same should impinge on the immediate/distant goals and values cherished by BVP,

they deserve to be discussed too - as for example the politics behind the re-nomenclature

of India as South Asia, bowing down to the pressures of US Dept. of Defence (or whatever)).

The pointers provided by VA could well indicate an academic felony by the scholar wrt Bharatiya heritage:

imagine the plight of Indian students in US (and even India) who are constantly mocked and jeered at

by teachers/peers stereotyping India/Hinduism, which has even become a part of the curriculum!

Surely, the Indian who with glee maligns our heritage colluding with the White Supremacists,

must, howsoever great a scholar he be, be shown the gate at the earliest - is what I meant.

And I see nothing wrong with that : मणिना भूषितस्स्सर्पः किमसौ न भयङ्करः?

The anticlimax of the whole drama was the parting shot of the quitter,

the vituperative words that deserve to be rebuked even formally.

Nothing matches the ingratitude of a person who was hosted

almost unconditionally - nay, re-re-re-invited to be a part of the List.

It was not the unwise who asserted: कृतघ्ने नास्ति निष्कृतिः ! ।

Sorry for the long mail.

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:19 PM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

There may be members who may want to invite the chelas of Trushke and Pollock into BVP.

This is a valuable point, which partly answers nityAnanda's " Is this Bharatiya-Vidvat-Parishad or Bharatiya-Dharma-Samsad?"

There is absolutely no harm in declaring that BVP's goal is to support scholarship which is pro-Hindu and pro-Hindu-interests. Make it clear that BVP welcomes those who profess to further Hindu interests (including Hindu dominance in India), whatever their views. Even people who are neutral towards these may join- and the only people barred should be those who are against these goals. That is crystal clear filter. Adapt it - don't be like secular India with its perpetual state of confusion. There can be fertile (and polite) exchange of ideas even (or especially) with this clarity.

I strongly suggest putting it on the front page where that over-long description (which mostly no one reads) now resides - "'भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्' is a  mailing list for Sanskrit researchers working from India (<-- replace this - it seems to confuse folks like Ajit)."

 

Knowledge of Sanskrit grammar and ability to compose verses by themselves

do not count for a very great merit. If that alone suffices, why would

Ajit-ji say why US politics here? And why would NP concur? (But all the same,

if the same should impinge on the immediate/distant goals and values cherished by BVP,

they deserve to be discussed too - as for example the politics behind the re-nomenclature

of India as South Asia, bowing down to the pressures of US Dept. of Defence (or whatever)).

साधूक्तम्!

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I disagree when you say Chelan of certain scholars In fact Prof . and Prof witzel including  their students are welcome to join BVP and post here.

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

And please donot become a party to a dispute and judge in the same case

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>  I disagree when you say Chelan of certain scholars In fact Prof . and Prof witzel including  their students are welcome to join BVP and post here.

-- Let me repeat, in spite of some like Sri Vishal Agarwal bringing us to our notice that some senior respected scholars on the BVP list are part of the group that includes the names that you mention, BVP always treated those senior scholars with great respect. Requested them to come back, to continue posting verses etc. repeatedly.  

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

_not_ referring to witzel or md as individuals below. point is general.

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021, 14:00 Nagaraj Paturi, <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  I disagree when you say Chelan of certain scholars In fact Prof . and Prof witzel including  their students are welcome to join BVP and post here.

so is bvp just another copy of Indology list - albeit with an indian name and management?? we all know that's not the case. what's the difference? think about it.

-- Let me repeat, in spite of some like Sri Vishal Agarwal bringing us to our notice that some senior respected scholars on the BVP list are part of the group that includes the names that you mention, BVP always treated those senior scholars with great respect. Requested them to come back, to continue posting verses etc. repeatedly.  

Bijoy misra tried to invite pollock over "for a debate" iirc. lol. what came of it? it reminds one of certain bjp governments pouring awards and honors on so called leftists only to get award wapasi.

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Nothing to think about, All views are welcome. The jury is not out yet on any of the controversial issues discussed in the past BVP is an independent list and BVP is not in competition with any other list.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Let me now share here publicly on the list. The same Prof. Bijoy Misra did request Prof. Deshpande in a mail copied to the BVP admin members and others to join back BVP. Prof. Deshpande made it clear that that was his final decision and he was not going to come back. 

The same Prof. Misra expressed his displeasure with the Indology list etc. at https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/3Ri47d9I_Ss/m/nCM8zOubAQAJ

It appears that he is trying some neutral role while being posted in his position. But it didn't work. 

Repeated pacification, particularly when it is to be done for expressions with no justifiable reason,  has an elastic limit. 

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:25 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021, 14:30 Ajit Gargeshwari, <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nothing to think about, All views are welcome.

that's for bvp management to decide ( of which you're not spokesperson). i hope they care to discuss and consider it seriously. 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Neither are you Visvaji I have tried to hint several times that BVP is a mailing list on which members adhere to norms of accepted forms of communication and all should write. Now it's for you to decide whether you wish to communicate with me or to list.  for all mailing list its members are the management I will not be tolerating any more ad heumen comments

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

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[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

There is absolutely no harm in declaring that BVP's goal is to support scholarship which is pro-Hindu and pro-Hindu-interests. Make it clear that BVP welcomes those who profess to further Hindu interests (including Hindu dominance in India), whatever their views. Even people who are neutral towards these may join- and the only people barred should be those who are against these goals. That is crystal clear filter.

 हिन्दुरित्य॒यम् अपि॒ शब्दो॑ ब॒हूना॒म् अस्प॑ष्ट ए॒व प्रति॑भाति।

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:47 PM Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Neither are you Visvaji I have tried to hint several times that BVP is a mailing list on which members adhere to norms of accepted forms of communication and all should write. 

:-) I recall the days when you were moderator, ajit - I'm glad that's long past.

 

Now it's for you to decide whether you wish to communicate with me or to list. 

 

for all mailing list its members are the management I will not be tolerating any more ad heumen comments

Any more? Weird. I find Mr Ajit's claim that there have been ad-hominem comments about him (in this thread) totally ludicrous.

 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I donot wish to correspond with Vasukiji on this thhread

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 2:48 PM उज्ज्वल राजपूत <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:

There is absolutely no harm in declaring that BVP's goal is to support scholarship which is pro-Hindu and pro-Hindu-interests. Make it clear that BVP welcomes those who profess to further Hindu interests (including Hindu dominance in India), whatever their views. Even people who are neutral towards these may join- and the only people barred should be those who are against these goals. That is crystal clear filter.

 हिन्दुरित्य॒यम् अपि॒ शब्दो॑ ब॒हूना॒म् अस्प॑ष्ट ए॒व प्रति॑भाति।

बहूनां नाम राष्ट्रियस्वयंसेवकसङ्घस्य महामतीनाम् इत्येव वाच्यम् :-D

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Not regarding these exchanges between these two members. 

But with regard to the ideological positions on the list. 

In my post at 

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/yp2kud2_GFA/m/3OQSXuexAgAJ

I had to make it clear as follows :

1. Not all the posts on the BVP list have got to do with ideology or viewpoint because most of the posts are in the form of are asking for book sources are references from books. 

2. Next to such posts come the posts seeking 'guidance' in matters of 'Hindu' practices. To some Indian members themselves these posts may appear to be non-scholarly or unacademic. But let us remember that these posts are addressed to scholars for authentic guidance from praamaaNika sources and the scholars provide scholarly responses providing references from books and other sources. 

I pointed out earlier too that dealing with classics content of which is no longer in the living practice of people is different from dealing with classics content of which is in the living practice of people. A researcher from outside the culture on some other list might post a question , " how is this item in this Sanskrit text practised by people? What is the textual reference supporting such practice? ".The member on this list might post a question, " how should this item be practised by me? What is the textual reference supporting such practice?" That is the difference. Here, the answers come from greater authorities in such matters than in the other forums where enquirer and the answering person may be at an equal level in the knowledge of the matters. 

3. Posts from non-scholars or beginners or learners mostly cover grammar or etymology and other such usage aspects of Sanskrit too. BVP has a name as a forum where non-scholars or beginners or learners can seek guidance from stalwarts in such matters. For a very long time, BVP was known as a forum where such prakriyaa /siddhi aspect of vyaakaraNa dominates the discussions and intense discussions and debates of such nature run endlessly being enjoyed by both the participating scholars and learners seeking guidance. Even today, this tendency of BVP continues to a large extent. 

None of the above three kinds of posts which form the majority of the posts here have any scope for ideological positions. 

4. Yes, though less in number, there are always posts here having scope for ideological positions. When issues with such scope come for discussion, members taking a position of respect for Sanskrit, Sanskrit studies, India, Indians, Indian culture etc. which are the subject matter of Indology are more in number here than in other forums where members studying this subject matter of Indology but not those who form part of the subject matter itself of Indology are more in number. Here, because the people who are the subject matter of Indology themselves are discussing Indology, positive rather than the negative attitude towards the subject matter predominates the posts. 

Among such posts there are both rigorous scholarly ones and naive and non-rigorous expressions of emotions from the non-scholarly members. 

The ones that were quoted on the Indology list are chosen from those by a non-scholarly zealot member. 

As you rightly noted, particularly in the thread on the Leonardo da Vinci topic, there were different views most of them without such zealous and emotional expressions  as those quoted in the Indology list. But none of them got quoted there. 

Only the  zealous and emotional expressions of a non-scholarly member got quoted there as if those represent the approach of all the posts on BVP and are a basis for the tone of the BVP conference. 

If this is an expression of displeasure at members taking a position of respect for Sanskrit, Sanskrit studies, India, Indians, Indian culture etc. which are the subject matter of Indology being more in number here, so be it. 

But taking a small portion of a small portion of the whole topics on the list to create a certain impression about the list does not reflect neither fairness nor good scholarship.  

(highlighting by me is new) 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 3:14 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

4. Yes, though less in number, there are always posts here having scope for ideological positions. When issues with such scope come for discussion, members taking a position of respect for Sanskrit, Sanskrit studies, India, Indians, Indian culture etc. which are the subject matter of Indology are more in number here than in other forums where members studying this subject matter of Indology but not those who form part of the subject matter itself of Indology are more in number. Here, because the people who are the subject matter of Indology themselves are discussing Indology, positive rather than the negative attitude towards the subject matter predominates the posts. 

This is a good description of the list in actual practice, just as something similar would be a good description of India in reality. However, it is as if this happens by accident, and not by design. Just like the Indian state not having Hinduism as the state religion (rather the reverse) comes with a chronic erosive cost, so it is in the case of the list. Making it explicit and conscious will have the benefit of having some common consensus (even vigor) and avoiding "Truschke, Pollock etc.. are all welcome", "Is this dharma pariShat or vidvat pariShat" kind of discord.

[Bijoy Misra]

The list language is degrading.  Through language, the decorum degrades.

Please save it from being a social interaction group that sustains itself by attacks and strong language.

Possibly two posts a day could be a ration.

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Dear Paturiji

Having an ideology or ideological orientation is acceptable. Hinduism or Sanskrit texts  as a tool of politics is certainly not on the agenda am I right. Please inform

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 3:14 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Dear prof Mishara

I am not surprised, this is how most of the so-called self-styled 'Hindu Saviors' in the US create noise, at least as seen in documents publicly circulated by them. Now don't ask me to share them, one can browse the web to get most of them.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

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[Srinivasakrishnan ln]

Calling the attention of list management. I am shocked that this poster is still allowed to post here. Has he not created enough damage? 

Srini

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:13 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 8:26 AM L Srinivas <lns2...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

The people who are attacking Prof Deshpande, with the exception of one whose posts I have seen for 20 years now, are ignoring a large part of his contributions to this group. I don"t know what they profess except a nebulous Hindu-ness who hate all kinds of Hindus except their own kind. One set hates Hindus who live in America, another set hates Tamil Hindus, another set hates 'northies' etc etc.. The list is endless.

Speaking for myself, I "hate" (ie- am amused by) charlatans like you who mischaracterize other people as haters. (No one except me has used the term "northies" here in the recent past.)

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

This a fit case for the member to be banned from the list sooner its done the better it is for the list

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I see the word 'hate' used several times in the post to which this post is a response. 

We should consider action against a member characterising the entire BVP list as NOT DESERVING a person being praised by that member. 

If this is not an attack on the entire list, what is ?

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

What me attacking the list I said members posting personal attacks continously should be banned whats a better word I should use when Un acceptable adjectives  are used against any scholar.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Yes, action shall be considered against all the members using unacceptable words like 'hate'. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

This thread is going too personal. 

I think it is time to close the thread. 

The thread is being closed. 

I request members not to post any further on this thread. 

It is almost impossible to impose discipline from outside. 

Self-discipline is the best path particularly for scholars. 

Thanks and regards,

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

I was pained when colossal scholars like Prof. Rani Sadasiva Murthy , Prof. Kapil Kapur left  (though I was not moderating when Prof. Kapil Kapur left, I didn't see any attempts of requesting him to come back too) )because of the mocking or harsh language used here. 

I am curious to know what happened in the above cases.

Rani Sadasiva Murthy ए॒षां प्र॒स्थान॑मि॒ह

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/F14iCmSoL5k/m/BmhwIB2_DgAJ 

[Srinivasakrishnan ln]

Wasn’t it personal when Prof Deshpande was being attacked? 

Is ‘hate’ a wrong word to be used while criticizing a persistent pattern of behavior where people spew hate without using the word?

Is it wrong to point out unacceptable behavior now when this should have been caught ages back? 

Shocked,

Srini

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I did not see any personal attack on Prof. Deshpande.  It was a thread  about a conference in which as per the thread initiator, those who indulge in representing Hinduism in bad light are involved. Pointing out that tendency in the academic writings or popular writings in academic topics of certain academicians is not a personal attack on them. One member added Prof. Deshpande to the list that was being pointed out in the thread. He saw a contradiction between what he wanted to show evidence for , misrepresenting Hinduism, by Prof. Deshpande and his writing of Krishna Bhakti verses. Both these are academic activities of the professor. There was no personal aspect being covered in the post. 

It was not intended to be against his writing Krishna Bhakti verses or the content in them. 

So there was no personal attack on him. 

 

So much for that question. 

Yes, people being too picky about any distant reference to their mother tongue Tamil, Hindi, Telugu or Marathi  and any academic discussion pointing out the flaws in some linguistic or caste supremacism etc. is academically not a healthy tendency. But if those expressions are characterized as hate, many in the list can be pointed out for those. 

We can only request to get over these tendencies. 

Let us close the thread. 

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[Nityanand Misra]

On Thursday, 26 August, 2021 at 4:56:56 pm UTC+5:30 Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

I did not see any personal attack on Prof. Deshpande.  It was a thread  about a conference in which as per the thread initiator, those who indulge in representing Hinduism in bad light are involved. Pointing out that tendency in the academic writings or popular writings in academic topics of certain academicians is not a personal attack on them. One member added Prof. Deshpande to the list that was being pointed out in the thread. He saw a contradiction between what he wanted to show evidence for , misrepresenting Hinduism, by Prof. Deshpande and his writing of Krishna Bhakti verses. Both these are academic activities of the professor. There was no personal aspect being covered in the post. 

I said I will not respond to this thread, but I have to say L. Srinivas Ji is correct. There have been many personal and ad-hominem attacks on Prof. Deshpande on this list over the years. If my memory serves me right, he was called गुरुण्डोच्छिष्टभोजी on this very list by Vishal Agarwal once. The list owners did not censor the word. They did not intervene. This despite Prof. Deshpande being on the Advisory Board of BVP.  And this despite Prof. Deshpande always being civil and nice in his exchanges including his exchanges with Vishal Agarwal on this list.

Even as of now, this is what bvparishat description reads

Advisory Board

Prof. Ashok Aklujkar, Prof. Dipak Bhattacharya, Prof. Madhav Deshpande, Prof. Amba Kulkarni, Prof. K.S. Kannan and Prof. R.N. Iyengar

So it is nothing but ridiculous if BVP does not even have problems with Prof. Deshpande, a member (or a former member in case the description is outdated) of it advisory board being called names by people who are self-appointed guardians of dharma [as they understand it]. 

I am also glad to read messages from Prof. R. N. Iyengar and Sh. Ajit Gargeshwari. 

[Kushagra Aniket]

Dear Scholars,

I agree that the standards of civil discourse in this list have been compromised by certain members. One can see it in the flurry of impulsive, unedited, and unfiltered comments in recent emails.

BVP has always given me appreciation and encouragement. I have also learnt a lot from the scholars present here. It would be unfortunate if the quality of discussion is lowered.

I represent nobody but myself. But I must comment that this kind of bickering and name calling does not help in attracting young people to the cause of Sanskrit and Samskriti. 

Best,

Kushagra

Kushagra Aniket

Economist and Management Consultant

Columbia University'21

Cornell University'15

New York, NY, U.S.A.

ka...@cornell.edu

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Even after so many posting by several scholars and respectable member's of the list if no action to ban the individual from posting  immediately  by the moderator one has to assume there will be no action and the member will be allowed to post and use any language he please on members of this list or respected scholars from other lists who may or may not be members of this list

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Ajit ,

If your reference is to Sri Vishvas Vasuki , he has been brought under moderation several times during my role as a moderator of this list. 

Any action more severe than this like banning from posting and banning from the list can not be taken just by a moderator instantly. 

It needs to be taken collectively by the admin committee in its meeting. 

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Please refer the matter to the admin committee of the list and convey the decision on BVP list owners to group at earliest. That will put to rest repeated usage of offensive language by a Visvasji should be tolerated in spite of making repeated requests to him not to do so on several occasions. On other occasions it was a mild reminder. Now is the time for a response please.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

This thread was announced as closed. 

But members are continuing to post. Is that not violation ? 

You can not command me or anyone in the admin committee regarding what I / we need to do at what speed. 

Things do not happen in proportion to the degree of your restlessness. 

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