Fwd: [INDOLOGY] World Sanskrit Conference 2021

[Nagaraj Paturi]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <indo...@list.indology.info>
Date: Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 4:04 AM
Subject: [INDOLOGY] World Sanskrit Conference 2021
To: indology <indo...@list.indology.info>

Dear Colleagues

Please find attached the First Circular and Call for Abstract for the World Sanskrit Conference, 18-22 January 2021, in Canberra Australia.

We are already looking forward to having you with us.

Yours sincerely,

McComas Taylor

on behalf of the WSC2021 Organising Committee

McComas Taylor Associate Professor Reader in Sanskrit College of Asia and the Pacific The Australian National University WSC Website| McC Website Tel: +61 2 6125 3179

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Jsr Prasad]

Good to see that the 2021 WSC carries a theme - 'Future Directions!'

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Prof. Prasad

Your interpretation of future directions is quite likely to be different from what they have in mind.

Ramakrishnan 

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[Jsr Prasad]

Dear Ramakrishnan ji,

Agree. Thanks for your opinion, may be the same with few other scholars.

However, I was cautious to use quotes :)

--

J.S.R. Prasad,
Professor, Dept. of Sanskrit Studies,
School of Humanities, University of Hyderabad,
Prof. C.R. Rao Road, Hyderabad - 500 046
Tel: +91-40-2313-3803

।। पुरुषोऽयं लोकसम्मितः ।।

[Ravi Khangai]

Esteemed Scholars,

 I am planning to propose a theme related to the Mahabharata for the WSC 2021. 

It will be a pleasure if some of you are willing to join me in the effort.

If yes, kindly communicate on my E mail.

Thank you

ॐ सर्वे भवन्तु सुखिनः
सर्वे सन्तु निरामयाः ।
सर्वे भद्राणि पश्यन्तु
मा कश्चिद्दुःखभाग्भवेत् ।
ॐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ॥
Om Sarve Bhavantu Sukhinah
Sarve Santu Nir-Aamayaah |
Sarve Bhadraanni Pashyantu
Maa Kashcid-Duhkha-Bhaag-Bhavet |
Om Shaantih Shaantih Shaantih ||

-Dr. Ravi Khangai, Assistant Professor, P.G.T.D. History, RTM Nagpur University, Nagpur, Maharashtra, India-440033

Adjunct Faculty

Hindu University of America

5200 Vineland Road, Suite 120, Orlando, FL 32811, USA.

Mo- 918446000912, 919665575896

https://nagpuruniversity.academia.edu/ravikhangai

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Dear Prof. Prasad,

The academia here (in the US) can be very fashion driven. This is not just in the field of humanities but in the hard sciences and engineering as well. Some topic(s) or the other will capture the attention of some "influential" folks and pretty much everyone will follow suit, since research dollars are controlled by these Kim Kardashians of the academia. I must sayit's probably worse in the hard sciences and engineering. In the earlier days it was advaita vedanta, due to whatever reasons. Then it was tantra, tantra, tantra. Now it is yoga, yoga, yoga. But you can be sure of one thing, the basic theme will NOT change

1. Hinduism = casteism - bad, bad, bad

2. Hinduism = suppression of women - bad, bad, bad

3. Hinduism = something which cannot be talked about by Hindus - bad, bad, bad people

4. Hinduism = no respect for animals and the environment -  bad, bad, bad.

5. Practicing Hindus do not understand what vedanta/tantra/yoga/latest-research-fad is - bad, bad, bad, people, they really need to listen to the white man.

The general trend is to import whatever the latest garbage sociological/anthropological ideas which are in vogue, and force fit them to arrive at the five conclusions above. You just need to pick a new "topic" that's all. Sorry, but that's what I have been seeing all these years. 

Ramakrishnan

[Kalyan K]

With all these fashion driven "fads" and "garbage", one wonders how the USA is still one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

" One of the " is very apt. That statement implies the existence of many other  one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth.  . 

"The academia here (in the US) can be very fashion driven" is a comment specific to one of those many. 

So it implies that being  one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth is not causally connected either favourably or unfavourably with academia of the nation being fashion driven. 

India has one of the best cricket teams of the world. That makes cricket one of the most fashionable game in India. Every new technique of the Indian cricket team, why even every new costume of the Indian cricket players becomes a fashion among lower levels of playing of the game. We can not say " if lower levels of playing of cricket is so fashion driven, how can India have  one of the best cricket teams of the world ?"   

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 2:44 PM Kalyan K <pk.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

With all these fashion driven "fads" and "garbage", one wonders how the USA is still one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Humans at a popular level are always driven by syllogisms such as ' a certain celebrity of , say, movie field drinks a certain instant beverage of a certain brand, so one who drinks that beverage can become a celebrity of movie field. '

This popular human logic is exploited to their advantage by commercial advertisers. 

Imitation of the costume , language , religious beliefs etc. of rulers by the ruled always happened because of such popular syllogisms only. 

Wrongly attributing the 'victory' of the British colonisers to Christian monotheism, to the absence of caste in the European society, to the birth and development of  science etc. in Europe lead to many Indian reformation movements imitating monotheism, going against caste and blindly worshipping science,  etc. Cultural influence of the colonisers on the colonised happened because of such syllogisms only. 

Worshipping the western understandings in Social Sciences and Humanities to the extent of worshipping their understanding of India, Indian literatures, cultures etc. too is rooted in this kind of wrong connections made between 'success' of one individual or society and the features of that individual and /or society that are not at all connected to that success.  

Wondering how the USA is still one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth --- is one of the reasons for the worshipping attitude towards American Indologists and their Indology among many Indians.  

 

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

>With all these fashion driven "fads" and "garbage", one wonders how the USA is still one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth.

If you look at history of Mankind the USA civilization's life is still very short. Only for 100 years it has been a great civilization. We do not know what will happen in next 100 years. Will it be great after 100 or 200 or 500 years? Indian Civilization was great for 1000s of years and then it has declined. No comparison.

You cannot have a short term view of Greatness. Look at the long term. 

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 2:44 PM Kalyan K <pk.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

With all these fashion driven "fads" and "garbage", one wonders how the USA is still one of the most technologically advanced nations on earth.

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Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[Bijoy Misra]

Lately from our analysis, we find that fashion is an expression of  declaring personal freedom unimpeded by any process of consumerism or religious laws.

We have the reason to believe was that eleventh century India was most fashion oriented as seen any time anywhere in the world.  This would express

in dress, ornaments, hairdo, makeup and continue to food and living.  It would continue to music, dance, arts and performance.  No two would

be like and rarely there would be a repetition.  Our analysis is derived from the literature of the period, temple sculptures and available travel diaries. 

The logic we develop is that fashion drives a custom market and a product is individually produced.  So there was need to export products to distant

markets etc.  High fashion was associated with extreme opulence in society and individual taste was tolerated and admired.  We think such fashion

led to the production of Sangeeta ratnakara as a text in later time.  We lately use the phrase "improvisation", which is a term for customization.

I will post our notes in course of time.

Best regards,

BM

[Kalyan K]

Ok, so MIT, Stanford, UC Berkeley, CalTech, Princeton etc are producing garbage.

[Bijoy Misra]

Most products oriented to India and Indian studies can be called garbage!

It is changing, but an old pattern has developed of examining from a

"big brother" point of view.  India as understood by a native Indian is different

what you read in the literature.  The calibration is different!  There are

few sympathetic researchers who appreciate the Indigenous culture.

Mapping India as Europe has been the mistaken track!

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 11:35 AM Kalyan K <pk.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok, so MIT, Stanford, UC Berkeley, CalTech, Princeton etc are producing garbage.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>  Ok, so MIT, Stanford, UC Berkeley, CalTech, Princeton etc are producing garbage.

---  Great Science and Technology work produced by good universities in US and many other parts of the world and including great universities and institutes of India have not been called garbage by anybody anywhere in the thread. 

Drawing inferences that can be drawn from the poorvapakshin's statements betrays only the weakness in the prativaada against the chosen poorvapaksha. 

Primary emphasis of Sri Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan-ji was his disappointment with a growing trend in Indology of showing its subject matter namely India, its literature, culture etc. in poor light. 

His response to Prof. Prasad 's views about the theme of the next WSC can be a sweeping generalisation and exaggeration because the hundreds of papers of a conference of that scale can not be and should not be expected to be following just this "hating the subject matter of the discipline" trend. Most of the papers there most probably can be expected to be away from this trend and can be expected to be focusing on topics not at all involving either positive or negative judgements about Sanskrit or related topics. 

But he like any Indian who  is being shown in bad light as part of showing the subject matter of the discipline in such light naturally tends to call such misrepresentation of his society and nation including himself using words such as 'garbage' only.

He, while talking about this trend as part of a fashion driven tendency digressed into research in the area of S & T and observed rightly or wrongly that the academics in that area too is fashion driven only. He did not call S &T research as garbage. 

It is not wrong to point out the sweeping generalisations, exaggerations and digressions . But his expression of disappointment with the growing trend in Indology of misrepresenting India can not be sidelined in the process.. 

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 10:05 PM Kalyan K <pk.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok, so MIT, Stanford, UC Berkeley, CalTech, Princeton etc are producing garbage.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Correction:

Drawing inferences that can not be drawn from the poorvapakshin's statements betrays only the weakness in the prativaada against the chosen poorvapaksha. 

Not

Drawing inferences that can be drawn from the poorvapakshin's statements betrays only the weakness in the prativaada against the chosen poorvapaksha. 

[Bijoy Misra]

The colonial "standardization" attitude in scholarship in the west is not confined to indian studies

but extends to Black studies, sociology, psychology, anthropology and other fields of humanities.

It is not the fault of the present generation.  The current people are only carrying the legacy. 

People like us who left India during the political troubles only discover such bias in-house here..

Many people of Indian origin wish to accept the status-quo and assume vain superiority.

The problem can only go when India herself would produce scholars who can articulate

views to an international audience.  I think we are making progress. 

The whole legacy is to portray India as a divided nation.  What we observe is that India has

been a unitary nation from the remote past.  There is a certain cultural Indian-ness that

binds the nation!  Dividing India was probably necessary to help administration.  Division

was purely a British invention and they wrote history to make the point..  We will study

more and I will report.

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Not sure what you are trying to achieve here, Before I try to explain what I said (glad to see Prof Paturi has understood what I was trying to say), I would like to know your background. Have you done any research in the US? I would like to know what background you have in STEM/S&T research in the US. Let me tell you mine. I have a Ph.D in a highly analytical field - information-theory/bayesian & mathematical statistics in communication theory problems. I have worked in the satellites area for 20+ years in a research/development area.

Ramakrishnan

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 11:35 AM Kalyan K <pk.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok, so MIT, Stanford, UC Berkeley, CalTech, Princeton etc are producing garbage.

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

My thanks to Prof. Paturi for his explanations. They are all right on target. At the risk of boring BVP members let me give a couple of examples:

1. In the early 90's a new type of "error control code" which is a key feature in 3G/4G/5G networks was introduced. It's also very important in satellite systems. Once people saw how good it was and some key people started working on it, every Tom Dick and Harry started working on it, quite a few with questionable quality. Now it's dying a slow death. A trend following? Yes. But does it detract from the great use of these codes? No.

2. When I was in graduate school, a sure way of not getting a job was doing something in "machine learning". Now it's the "in" thing. Every field is trying to force fit their stuff into this area because that's the fashionable thing to do. The IEEE signal processing society is actually considering changing its name to IEEE big data society! Trend following? Yes, does this mean machine learning is useless? Absolutely no.

I am quite frankly surprised with the level of dumb vitaNDAvAdam my simple, obvious statement which should be a *truism* to anyone who has any *worthwhile* experience to speak of in R&D inside the US,.

BTW, quantity also matters and not just quality. The endowment (not the amount it spends per year) of Harvard alone is bigger than the GDP of about 50% of the countries in the world. While not apples-to-apples, this should give an idea of the financial clout these people have.

Ramakrishnan

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Thank you Dr Misra-ji. I wish more Indians in the US stand up and put forth these ideas.

Ramakrishnan

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Sri Ramakrishnan,

There is nothing to stand up to.  India does not have an alternate model.

Reactions don't create model.  Scholars back home treasure what is

produced in the west.  Religious people recite verses and maintain their

own regimented beliefs. It is not the fault of the researchers in the west. 

If I was asked to create a record of US history, I would do a still poorer job.

Humans have a tendency to map the world from their perspective.

Possibly animals do.  Then India has such poor record keeping.

Low data force people to extrapolate using their own maps.  "a person

missing" would be inferred as "person killed".  Garbage in glib covers

are spewed out for the world market as we speak.

To create a cultural history of India from an Indian perspective is

the challenge of the time.  RC Majumdar at Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan

has created eleven volumes.  It was a post-independence massive effort.

Some others have created some biased political history.

A group or a university should take up the compilation of

India's cultural history from the first principles aiming to complete

by the centennial of independence.  Some Government help and

sponsorship could be necessary. 

We operate here to create a message for the new youth.  We

try to create a broad experiential view.  Our thrust is to understand

our own personality in art, literature, science and living to be able

to create a definition identifying Indian descent.  Some in BVP assist us.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

Best regards,

BM

[Kalyan K]

//2. When I was in graduate school, a sure way of not getting a job was doing something in "machine learning". Now it's the "in" thing. Every field is trying to force fit their stuff into this area because that's the fashionable thing to do.//


This is a sweeping generalization. I have been working for a US based company in an R&D role for more than 10 years, and so far have not seen any attempts to "force fit" machine learning. One can easily get away with making seemingly intelligent but actually dumb comments in unrelated forums and come accross as looking smart.

[Vandana Mishra]

ys....mostly our ppl r so much in awe of westners and hv deep inferiority complex hence instead of we producing the knowledge through our Veda we take their distored knowledge and our ex government has given awards such as Padma Shree also to these foreigners...

Narsyan Murty has given 500 volumes plus billion dollars of our ancient sanskrit text to Sheldon Pullock to write it for us !!!!! 

thats how big fools we r.

On Sat, 2 Feb, 2019, 10:21 PM Kalyan K <pk.k...@gmail.com wrote:

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Ok, so MIT, Stanford, UC Berkeley, CalTech, Princeton etc are producing garbage.

[Kalyan K]

I have a PhD in Mechanical Engineering from US. I have minor in Mathematics in Real Analysis. I have B Tech from IIT. Does that help?

[Nagaraj Paturi]

To bring the discussion back to track, to fall within the focus and scope of our forum, let us see from where - hating the subject matter of the disciplin- i.e., Sanskrit,kavyas and other literature in it, ancient Indian knowledge systemsetc.,   becomes a fashion in Indological studies in the west and /or in US.

Prof. Wendy Doniger in her article on Bhagavadgita in which she tries hard to show BhG as a bad book says, 

“The Bhagavad Gita is not as nice a book as some Americans think…Throughout the Mahabharata … Krishna goads human beings into all sorts of murderous and self-destructive behaviors such as war…. The Gita is a dishonest book …”  

This sentence "The Bhagavad Gita is not as nice a book as some Americans think " says it all. Their audience are Americans. Their concern is that Americans think that Bhagavadgita (and many works in Sanskrit )  is (are ) a nice book. The book American Veda by Philip Goldberg gives us a picture of the extent to which some Americans developed a 'nice' image of India, Sanskrit etc., and why it gains such a significance as to need a counter  to remove that impression. 

It is a different matter that to achieve this they resort to such statements as "Throughout the Mahabharata … Krishna goads human beings into all sorts of murderous and self-destructive behaviors such as war…."  which look laughable to even common audience of BhG pravachana that have been attending such pravachanas for millennia. None of them felt goaded to murderous behaviour. There is evidence to show that for millennia the book has been taken as a book guiding towards vihita karma performance , duty as a soldier of the military of the kingdom or the nation being only one of many such vihita karmas or svadharmas for the audience coming from numerous social group backgrounds of the traditional and contemporary social orders., with a karmaphalasnnyaasa approach, karmaphalasannyaasayoga being only one of many paths instructed by the book.  

But their audience are not the millions and a billion of Indians who would definitely laugh at such a naivety in understanding the book. Their audience are the Americans who think that BhG is a nice book. 

This is one of the reasons for the hating the subject matter of the disciplin- i.e., Sanskrit,kavyas and other literature in it, ancient Indian knowledge systemsetc.,   becoming a fashion in Indological studies in the west and /or in US. 

There are a few other reasons too. 

[Kalyan K]

Sri Paturiji

Let me ask you a question. What do you mean by "fashionable"? How can someone take one single example of Prof Doniger and try to generalize it to the entire American academia? Since this thread is about WSC, do you have evidence to show that there is a systemic bias against Hinduism in that forum?

Now whether in science/engineering or in indology, one needs evidence to show that certain trends are emerging or are currently in vogue. The evidence cannot be a single example or a couple of examples. Perceptions cannot become evidence. (People who claim to work in Statistics should know this better). And one should not go merely by acquired "truisms" or sensationalized news paper reports. Sweeping generalizations like "every one is doing it right now irrespective of whether it is correct/incorrect required/not required", does a great disservice to the academia, industry and whatnot. It paints a whole bunch of people as brainless sheep trying to follow a shepherd.

Actually, even before answering all these questions, one must define what constitutes bias against Hinduism. And this can be subjective. I will take an example. Prof Pollock talks about Rama's "madness" in the Aranya kanda. The use of the word "mad" for a revered figure might offend someone, but it might not offend someone else. Does the use of this word automatically imply that Prof Pollock is anti-hindu? Or is there a good reason why he chooses to use this word. Without dispassionate analysis, we cannot come to any conclusions. It is easy to appeal to base emotions, but that is not the correct way to determine the state of things.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>  Since this thread is about WSC, do you have evidence to show that there is a systemic bias against Hinduism in that forum? 

I am surprised to see how you could manage to ask this question even after reading the following paragraph by me in specific reference to WSC:

His response to Prof. Prasad 's views about the theme of the next WSC can be a sweeping generalisation and exaggeration because the hundreds of papers of a conference of that scale can not be and should not be expected to be following just this "hating the subject matter of the discipline" trend. Most of the papers there most probably can be expected to be away from this trend and can be expected to be focusing on topics not at all involving either positive or negative judgements about Sanskrit or related topics.   

That said, coming to the word " fashionable" , " growing trend"  etc. , I don't need to reinvent the wheel or waste the resources of this forum in reproducing all that is already covered in well documented elaborate , big volumes already published on this growing trend and fashion. You seem to watch some lists. This I am able to say on the basis of your recent response in this forum to a post by one professor. The following was your response at 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/yp2kud2_GFA/7Bv1qxaSAgAJ

Already, the invitation on the Indology list has received negative comments from one Walter Slaje. The gentleman in question selectively gives some quotes from BVP to show the "ideological" direction which "things" are taking at present. (Here, I am struggling to remember what ideology I hold). He either forgets or is wilfully ignorant of the fact that members here represent diverse viewpoints and we are in general not blindly anti-non-Indian. Nor is every member here a scholar (example: myself). It appears that for people like Walter, swadeshi is a bad word which needs to be looked down upon with all the condescension that it deserves. Too bad for Walter, the days of colonialism are long gone. 

I responded to this post of you as follows at 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/yp2kud2_GFA/3OQSXuexAgAJ

Thanks Sri Kalyan-ji for pointing out the selective quotes and partial representation in Indology list by Prof. Walter Slaje amounting to misrepresentation. 

Partial because :

1. Not all the posts on the BVP list have got to do with ideology or viewpoint because most of the posts are in the form of are asking for book sources are references from books. 

2. Next to such posts come the posts seeking 'guidance' in matters of 'Hindu' practices. To some Indian members themselves these posts may appear to be non-scholarly or unacademic. But let us remember that these posts are addressed to scholars for authentic guidance from praamaaNika sources and the scholars provide scholarly responses providing references from books and other sources. 

I pointed out earlier too that dealing with classics content of which is no longer in the living practice of people is different from dealing with classics content of which is in the living practice of people. A researcher from outside the culture on some other list might post a question , " how is this item in this Sanskrit text practised by people? What is the textual reference supporting such practice? ".The member on this list might post a question, " how should this item be practised by me? What is the textual reference supporting such practice?" That is the difference. Here, the answers come from greter authorities in such matters than in the other forums where enquirer and the answering person may be at an equal level in the knowledge of the matters. 

3. Posts from non-scholars or beginners or learners mostly cover grammar or etymology and other such usage aspects of Sanskrit too. BVP has a name as a forum where non-scholars or beginners or learners can seek guidance from stalwarts in such matters. For a very long time, BVP was known as a forum where such prakriyaa /siddhi aspect of vyaakaraNa dominates the discussions and intense discussions and debates of such nature run endlessly being enjoyed by both the participating scholars and learners seeking guidance. Even today, this tendency of BVP continues to a large extent. 

None of the above three kinds of posts which form the majority of the posts here have any scope for ideological positions. 

4. Yes, though less in number, there are always posts here having scope for ideological positions. When issues with such scope come for discussion, members taking a position of respect for Sanskrit, Sanskrit studies, India, Indians, Indian culture etc. which are the subject matter of Indology are more in number here than in other forums where members studying this subject matter of Indology but not those who form part of the subject matter itself of Indology are more in number. Here, because the people who are the subject matter of Indology themselves are discussing Indology, positive rather than the negative attitude towards the subject matter predominates the posts. 

Among such posts there are both rigorous scholarly ones and naive and non-rigorous expressions of emotions from the non-scholarly members. 

The ones that were quoted on the Indology list are chosen from those by a non-scholarly zealot member. 

As you rightly noted, particularly in the thread on the Leonardo da Vinci topic, there were different views most of them without such zealous and emotional expressions  as those quoted in the Indology list. But none of them got quoted there. 

Only the  zealous and emotional expressions of a non-scholarly member got quoted there as if those represent the approach of all the posts on BVP and are a basis for the tone of the BVP conference. 

If this is an expression of displeasure at members taking a position of respect for Sanskrit, Sanskrit studies, India, Indians, Indian culture etc. which are the subject matter of Indology being more in number here, so be it. 

But taking a small portion of a small portion of the whole topics on the list to create a certain impression about the list does not reflect neither fairness nor good scholarship.   

The post to which you responded is just a sample of a trend in various such forums. 

I expressed my awareness that this is not all of Indology, in another post of me at the end of which I said, 

(please note the highlighted end part of the passage0:

1. Dealing with the classics of a community which has living practitioners of various aspects of culture such as the religion contained in those classics,  is different from dealing with the classics of a community which no longer has living practitioners of the religion and other such aspects in those classics. Availability of these living practitioners is both a problem and an opportunity. Problem because the practitioners react/respond to what has been said about what they live, in the study of the classics that contain the aspects that they put in practice;  opportunity because the student of the classics can take the help of study of the practice in understanding the classics.

2. What Prof. Ingalls did to Sanskrit studies, in the form of exposing, criticizing and countering the “monstrous” (-not my word-) Eurocentric study of Sanskrit material, was very much similar to what cultural relativists did to the study of various world cultures. He made Sanskritists aware of the cultural sensitivity keeping in view the sensibilities of the culture insiders.

Cultural relativists evaluate the validity of their study by taking back their study to the studied people and testing it for cultural sensitivity.  

3.  Deromanticization, i.e., undoing of the romanticized presentation of the ‘positive’ of a culture studied need not necessarily be in the form of the other extreme, the romanticized presentation of the ‘negative’ of the studied culture.

When I go to fieldwork in Indian villages, the villagers keep asking me, “Are you going to present the same old feudal time picture of our villages that the movie guys present, a cruel landlord replacing the bullocks of a cart with the agricultural laborers and whipping them to bleed and so on?”   

It is heartening to see that there are still a very big number of Sanskrit scholars in US, who still live the sensitivity encouraged by likes of  Prof. Ingalls. Though uneventful journeys do not get reported as news, they are the ones passengers love!

Thanks and regards,

-N

   

 

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[Kalyan K]

//I am surprised to see how you could manage to ask this question even after reading the following paragraph by me in specific reference to WSC://


Ok. Thanks for pointing it out.

//That said, coming to the word " fashionable" , " growing trend" etc. , I don't need to reinvent the wheel or waste the resources of this forum in reproducing all that is already covered in well documented elaborate , big volumes already published on this growing trend and fashion.//

Alright. Can you point me to some of these elaborate, big volumes that were already published? If you mean some of Sri Rajiv Malhotra's books, already read them and not very convinced. (May be Rohan Murthy was not convinced either). If you mean something else, let me know. At least can you give me a list of 10-20 indologists in the US, who according to you, are the worst culprits?

//The post to which you responded is just a sample of a trend in various such forums.//

That I responded to a post is correct. But sample of a trend? I dont know and never implied that. Neither swadeshi nor videshi should be bad words.

//It is heartening to see that there are still a very big number of Sanskrit scholars in US, who still live the sensitivity encouraged by likes of Prof. Ingalls.//

Oh, so there are a "big number" of good guys but also a "growing fashionable trend" of bashing Hinduism. Isn't this the same as admitting there are indologists of all hues, which should not be news at all?

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>  May be Rohan Murthy was not convinced either.

---- Rohan Murthy nowhere ever expressed his awareness of the books of Sri Rajiv Malhotra that you said you read were not convinced. So to say  'Rohan Murthy was not convinced either' is does not fit here. 

You are not convinced is possible and noted. But that is inconsequential given the number of readers that are convinced by those books. 

> That I responded to a post is correct. But sample of a trend? I dont know and never implied that.  

-- That it is a sample of a trend is my statement and my information to you. So, " I dont know and never implied that. " is obvious.  

> Oh, so there are a "big number" of good guys but also a "growing fashionable trend" of bashing Hinduism. Isn't this the same as admitting there are indologists of all hues, which should not be news at all?  

---- Please read the sentence  "Though uneventful journeys do not get reported as news, they are the ones passengers love! " once again. What make news are the eventful journeys. We respond to the events because we are their victims. 

 

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[Kalyan K]

Paturiji

I am asking you again.

Can you give me a list of 10-20 indologists in US who, according to you, are the "worst culprits" in bashing Hinduism?

Also, apart from Sri Rajiv Malhotra's books, do you have anything else that points to a "growing fashionable trend" of bashing Hinduism?

[Nagaraj Paturi]

All names mentioned and discussed in many sources. 

I am not obliged to follow your instructions to set aside some source that you set aside and give the sources that are demanded by you. 

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[K S Kannan]

Dr Kalyan seems to be making a fetish of argumentation.

His animadversions betray him more as a censorious being than as a non-partisan thinker.

On the other hand, there is a great amount of truth in what Dr. Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan is bluntly yet plainly saying.

And the amount of patience and sense being evidenced in the posts of Prof Nagaraj Paturi are rather unusual.

Kalyan speaks of the great advances in science and technology, as if  all advances in science and technology have been great,

or under an assumption that all the "great" advances have been beneficial to humanity.

As to trends and fashions in science too, one may perhaps look into the writings of Kuhn, or even better, Feyerabend, or better still Polanyi.

One must only recall the statement "Science is what scientists do" that well summarises that scientists are humans too,

and realise that science has not always been impervious to fads and fashions, or to prejudices and predispositions.

And it is not for nothing that it  has been remarked that the path of progress in science is littered with discarded theories.

Of course one ought not to speak of  the master fund-suckers that scientists have always been irrespective of

how well their theories fared before and after they were discarded.

(Was it Sagan who noted that 90% of the scientists have been in the current century?)

Lest I be misconstrued, it is not science as such that I am indicting,

but the likes of Kalyan who speak from an ivory tower,

and have a fantastic notion of science as a glorious pursuit,

oblivious to the fact that there is no science apart from its practitioners

- scientists who are no embodiment of reason, pure and simple, but very much are humans

with their own quota of  ambitions or prejudices, and fancies, frailties and foibles. 

To be fair, Oppenheimer laid bare  the truth of this fairly poignantly.

(And I am not speaking of dishonest scientists who are in no small number either).

Science always looks glorious by hindsight.

As to technology, it is not cynicism alone that has inspired the remark

"technology has brought meaning to the life", and as it adds, "of technologists"

(yes, the deified purveyors that have also wrought devastations in no small measure,

with not even a modicum of compunction). Economists do not fall very much behind them either,

which is why Schumacher had to subtitle a book of his as "A study of Economics as if people mattered".

It is not for nothing that Winograd, Weizenbaum, or Hawkins caution us against Artificial Intelligence.

(And the less we speak of Genetic Engineering the better).

While true scientists are humble and hesitant, their salesmen, like Kalyan & Co.,

are suffused with a beaming confidence of their proprietorship over truth.

All this was to corroborate the ring of truth in what Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan said, and much more.

Kalyan's championing of the ilks of Pollock is another issue,

and Prof. Paturi has shown the essential fallacies of  his thinking,

and I am spared the trouble of giving a fair picture of the situation.

Brainwashed sepoys, whose adulations and admirations of the White Man's Burden are in no small measure,

are to be found even to this day,  and in august company of those who, like the celebrated presstitutes,

understand the language of the dollar and little else.

Tailpiece - Today's newspaper carries this precious news item:

"When European settlers arrived in the Americas, they killed over 56 million indigenous Americans ...

[and this] resulted in a massive decrease in Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere... enough to cool the earth.

[It] directly contributed to the success of the European economy... and helped European population to expand..."

(Was it only in America that Europeans showed their true colours?

Ask Alain Danielou about the cultural genocide in Africa. idam upalakshanam of their lakshanam.

Aren't cannibals more sensible than these vermins, the scum of the earth?

Please excuse my mildness.)

KSKannan

Dr. K.S.Kannan

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Member, BoS, Chinmaya University.

Member, BoS, University of Hyderabad.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Principal, Evening College, Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[Kalyan K]

Dr. Kannan has the unmatched ability to write empty rhetoric. I cannot compete with him.

[Adithya Pillai]

I agree with Dr. Kalyan K. 

Dr. Kannan has used a great deal of rhetoric ('censorious beings!') and name dropping (Winograd, Weizenbaum, or Hawkins!)  

As academics, the task is to sift though rhetoric and allow for a greater diversity of opinions, being aware of the political asymmetries that underlie each interpretation. All interpretations of the text are bound to be somewhat prejudiced. Some interpretations are more accurate than others, and the task of scholarship is to 'show' not 'say' what the more accurate one is and why. 

This is more so the case given that the humanities are significantly devalued in today's world and within it Sanskrit/Indian Cultural studies constitute an even more excluded domain. 

It's unfortunate that the space for calm, quiet, scholarship (where rhetoric can be kept to a minimum) seems to be diminishing.

Regards,

I’m protected online with Avast Free Antivirus. Get it here — it’s free forever.

On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 8:54 AM Kalyan K <pk.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dr. Kannan has the unmatched ability to write empty rhetoric. I cannot compete with him.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

To 'show' not 'say' is being done by various conferences and publications and Prof. Kannan has been leading significant part of that activity from the front. 

I agree with the view that  'the humanities are significantly devalued in today's world and within it Sanskrit/Indian Cultural studies constitute an even more excluded domain'.   

That is another reason in many western countries some academicians choose to show to their funding sources that their academics are useful to their governments and societies by helping them understand the past of countries like India without which understanding the present of countries such as India is difficult. In the process of arguing for more funds on this basis to their fields they directly mention the names of Indian political parties and their successes and failures and connect them to Ramayana and its content, Sanskrit and its creativity etc. When the flaws in those arguments, just in terms of Ramayana and its content, Sanskrit and its creativity etc are 'shown' not 'said' without any mention of the names of Indian political parties and their successes and failures  , they say 'this is politics. You are doing politics.' 'Care should be taken to avoid politics' etc.  

[K S Kannan]

I have done a course in Philosophy of Science at IIT-Kanpur informally when I had quite an occasion to interact with the Dept. of Computer Science there, and I hope this helps the likes of Kalyan and Pillai who rather find an easy escape route by making accusations of rhetoric and names-dropping - in lieu of attempting to answer issues raised point by point. Uncalled for deployment of exclamatory marks is also rhetoric (and incidentally, attributing the exclamation mark to me by including it inside the quotation marks is plain inaccurate).

 I have read Terry Winograd and Weizenbaum and Stephen Hawkins. I have gone through the writings of Thomas Kuhn, Feyerabend, and Michael Polanyi. These are preeminent philosophers of science who have also sized up fairly well the function, role, and methodologies of science.

There are some people cannot even realise the work and worth of such key authors cited. Sweeping generalisations and nonchalant remarks by these  people do sometimes invite rhetoric, though. If what I had written was "empty rhetoric", I must say that the grace with which Dr. Kalyan has accepted defeat in his ability to write "empty rhetoric" is quite appreciated. Indeed, it is so easy to dismiss anything in just two sentences.

All the same, the ones who cannot differentiate between rhetoric and reasoning can only be pitied.

Here is a golden rule to win any argument:

na bhetavyam, na boddhavyam,

      na s'rAvyam vAdino vacaH |

jhaTiti prativaktavyam

      sabhAsu vijigIs"ubhiH ! ||

BTW, the newspaper that I referred to is The New Indian Express dated 3rd Feb 2019, Bangalore edition (available over the net), page 20. And those are still enamoured of the White Man may read with benefit Dr. Ananda Coomaraswamy's "Laying Kipling's Ghost".

KSKannan

[Adithya Pillai]

I am sure everyone who is subscribed to this list is here because they wish to be a part of a community that cares about aspects of Indian past. I am sure Prof. Kannan's work is important and his concerns and his remarks about the scholars cited are coming from a legitimate place. But i hope he also sees why it is legitimate to accuse his last argument (and the point that a critical appreciation of the very real issues of funding-based influential paradigms within Science, Technology and the Humanities need not necessarily have anything to do with countering a 'White Man' bias. Even if the paradigm is illegitimate, the argument should be that we are countering it because it is wrong, not because some soft-headed people have certain dispositional features or monetary arrangements that made them succumb to the paradigm.) as uncalled for and 'rhetorical'. We have to be more measured. 

Regards,

I’m protected online with Avast Free Antivirus. Get it here — it’s free forever.

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Sri Pillai,

Diversity of opinion is not ignorance. 

You need a good training in Nyaya to understand what is a valid discussion.

Are these "rhetoric" posters into Sanskrit and Indian scholarship?

Their language appears disrespectful.

Free speech is not arbitrary speech!  India went through this two thousand years ago!

BM

[Nagaraj Paturi]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: CAPEEM <in...@capeem.org>
Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2019 at 5:02 PM
Subject: PRESS RELEASE: Federal Court Unseals Records of California Department Of Education's Religious Bias Scheme

FEDERAL COURT UNSEALS RECORDS OF CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION'S RELIGIOUS BIAS SCHEME   FREMONT, CA 02 FEBRUARY 2019 Judge Charles Breyer has unsealed emails showing Department of Education officials soliciting and coordinating professors’ anti-Hindu reports on 2016 drafts of the California-History Social Science Framework that were falsely presented as “public comment.” Tom Adams, the Deputy Superintendent at the California Department of Education, who has a history of working behind the scenes with professors who create anti-Hindu curriculum content, secretly contacted a group of professors with whom he had worked in the past. One of the professors, Jonathan Kenoyer of the University of Wisconsin, had co-authored a textbook the Curriculum Commission had rejected in 2005 for mocking Hinduism. Adams had then organized a group of professors who had not read this book to protest its rejection and used their protests to manipulate the State Board of Education into overruling the Commission’s decision to reject the textbook. The scheme by Adams to avoid the process for retaining experts as contemplated by California Department of Education regulation and secretly recruit professors who could be relied upon to provide content derogatory of Hinduism during the Framework adoption process in 2016 was revealed through a subpoena on Kenoyer in the case of California Parents for the Equalization of Educational Materials (CAPEEM) v. Torlakson, No. 3:17-cv-00635, pending in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California. The emails among the professors show they understood they were to use “smoke and mirrors” to address the input of Hindu groups and one of the professors recognized that “readers of our report can imagine that [the report] is meant to undermine the legitimacy of Hinduism as a religion (and Hinduism uniquely among religions, at that).” One comment that shows the hostility of the professors accuses Hindus of appropriating the Vedas, Upanishads and the Gita and calling it the foundation of Hinduism. The emails had been filed under seal until Thursday, when Judge Breyer agreed with the plaintiffs and ruled that neither the Regents of the University of California nor Professor Kenoyer had shown “compelling reasons” to keep the records under seal. “This is an important ruling that rejects the notion that government officials and professors can hide behind the label ‘academic freedom’ and allows all Californians to better understand how their government develops the public school curriculum,” noted Arvind Kumar, a board member of the Fremont-based CAPEEM. “Unfortunately, the emails reveal secrecy and doublespeak,” he added. The court made clear that unsealed records may well be relevant to the claims brought by CAPEEM and Bay Area parents that the Framework is derogatory to Hinduism, since they argue that state officials coordinated with the professors to provide reports on the curriculum was falsely construed as public comment. “We knew that the content of the Framework treats Hinduism differently from other faiths but the emails show the bad faith by the officials who created that content,” said Glenn Katon, an Oakland civil rights lawyer representing CAPEEM and the parents. “This is another strong indication of the State’s violation of the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution.” The Court has yet to rule on motions filed by both sides arguing they are entitled to judgment as a matter of law. The order and unsealed documents and can be found here. For media inquiries, contact me...@capeem.org or (510) 463-3350. CAPEEM is a 501(c)(3) organization with tax id 56-2565521 and can be reached at CAPEEM PO Box 1283 Fremont, CA 94538 USA. Want to change how you receive these emails? You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list

[K S Kannan]

A timely revelation, and a veritable eye-opener

for the rampant anti-Hindu(ism) stance amongst even "academics"

in US in particular (and the West generally).

[Vishal Agarwal]

It might be noted that this same Kamala Visvesvaran (mentioned in CAPEEM press release) had written a Hinduphobic article in a Georgetown Law Journal on the 2005-2006 CA Textbooks controversy with Michael Witzel, another rabid Hindu hater. In that controversy, a very hateful role was played by a 'Munh mein Krishna verses, bagal mein chhuri' type Indologist too who lived in Michigan and now resides in California. Yes, we are often taken in by the apparent scholarship of these Indologists whether westerners by birth or adoption, who spread hatred against Hindus in the name of scholarship.

Now K Kalyan had asked for a few names of Indologists who spread hatred against Hinduism in the west. So let me append some articles that I wrote during that 2005-2006 controversy which will give him more names than he needs (See Appendix A of the file IndiaForum2.doc). I can send him many more articles from my archive but these should suffice for the time being. Some scholars on this list might find my language in this email very acerbic - but I prefer to call the spade a spade. If people write verses on Krishna but spread hatred against Hinduism and Hindu kids elsewhere, they do not deserve my respect. My kid deserves to be taught about his heritage with the same respect that kids from other ethnic backgrounds are.

In 2007, I had requested the 9th circuit court in S Francisco for a copy of the deposition of some of these Indologists like Michael Witzel and have it digitally with me. That Hindu hater vented out his hatred and racism quite openly during this deposition. I have interacted with many of these Indologists since 1998 and have first hand experience of how prejudiced and petty these people are. May be K Kalyan needs to stop being a Gungadin and see at our tradition through our own eyes, and stop glorifying Sahibs. As for science etc., that is a different matter and I do not wish to flaunt my own degrees like he did on this list earlier.

Vishal

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

I do not see anything wrong in the description of Vaishnava families in the attachment. Even today in Madhva Maths there is a separate treatment for Madhvas and other types like Smarta Brahmins. In 1970s itself in Udupi my parents faced this. For taking lunch they had to sit separately on ground floor. Madhvas took lunch on first floor. With my own eyes I have seen they do not sit with other Brahmins for lunch. They want to eat separately. This is happening in 21st century and not 13th century.

Kindly check your facts before making allegations. We cannot deny historical facts and wish everything is fine. It is not.

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Just recently we had a huge BVP conference conducted in the premises of Udupi Sri Krishna shrine and venues of various paryaya mathas etc. 

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

True BVP conference happened. But this also happened in this century.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2621761/Udupi-temple-evicts-non-Brahmin-professor-dining-hall.html

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The topic being discussed is representation of India in textbooks for sixth graders in US. The question is it necessary to give an exaggerated picture of Saiva Vaishnava conflict to such young students while introducing them to Hinduism?

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/JnGYvKWOC5k/Dndbe5z7CwAJ

[Nagaraj Paturi]

In the conversation 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/qdZtHOtHL80/STkm5omtCAAJ,

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/qdZtHOtHL80/IGy531iuCAAJ,

please look at the openmindedness of the stalwart scholar in 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/qdZtHOtHL80/2WKNuIiuCAAJ

[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/qdZtHOtHL80/hHSB6XaxCAAJ

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/qdZtHOtHL80/xwJmeT6zCAAJ

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Let us help the youngsters know good things as follows:

https://advaita-l.advaita-vedanta.narkive.com/ZwHB74Ho/shankarapadabhushanam-sanskrit#post3

https://advaita-l.advaita-vedanta.narkive.com/ZwHB74Ho/shankarapadabhushanam-sanskrit#post5

https://advaita-l.advaita-vedanta.narkive.com/ZwHB74Ho/shankarapadabhushanam-sanskrit#post6 

https://advaita-l.advaita-vedanta.narkive.com/ZwHB74Ho/shankarapadabhushanam-sanskrit#post6

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Vishal, friends, and the moderators,

I would request all to leave political or personal views

off the list.  Let us maintain BVP as a scholar's

forum.  We read Valmiki and not examine him

through his personal life.  The latter is a social

condition, knowledge is a skill. 

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

[K S Kannan]

Are we then to turn a blind eye to the avalanche of literature produced (and being produced)

deploying vicious socio-political lenses devised and controlled by the White Supremacists and their proteges

upon Sanskrit in particular and the Hindu heritage in general for the last 250 years

- unmistakably engendering and buttressing the Breaking India forces consistently?

As Rajiv Malhotra has pointed out time and again, it is only the Hindu Studies

that have all along been under the unrelenting stranglehold of non-Hindus - the Whites/Christians,

(and their "heathen" sepoys in India or abroad) waiting for the crumbs from their tables.

(Would they even contemplate attempting this for Urdu/Islam/Judaism?

Do they have the nerve to "psychoanalyse" the Prophet as they do Rama or Krishna or Siva?

And what deters these pusillanimous hooligans? Simple: the language of daNDa!

vrajanti te mUDha-dhiyaH parAbhavam

bhavanti mAyAvis"u ye na mAyinaH !!

and

pis'AcAnam pis'Aca-bhAs"ayaivottaram deyam)

Has this not been vitiating a vast readership (and leadership) within and outside of India?

Don't they have a better business to do?

Imagine a 150-year old "civilisation" of brigands, pirates, and plunderers

(or a 100-year old "philosophy" of totalitarianism that withered in its own land of birth)

teaching lessons of living to a 5000-years (or more) old stable civilisation

that attacked none to impose its philosophy on ?

Who is interfering, and who is causing disruption, Dr. Bijoy Misra?

And who are we to be afraid of, please?

Let us respond academically, of course, to those who are genuinely academic.

Should we fight shy of confronting those acting by subterfuge

- the baiDAlika-vratin-s and go-mukha-vyAghra-s ?:

paroks"e kArya-hantAram

      pratyaks"e priya-vAdinam|

varjayet tAdRs'am mitram

      vis"a-kumbham payo-mukham||

KSKannan

[K S Kannan]

The abundant and apposite material presented by Dr Vishal Agarwal and Prof Nagaraj Paturi

should be compulsory reading for anyone, especially the younger generation, stepping into Indological studies.

It would be ideal if these/kindred ideas in their theoretical aspects

as well as commentaries on contemporary scholarship

are presented in book form, and made available in various languages

through various media.

[Vishal Agarwal]

Venketash,

You have to see the purpose for which this example was given - to deny that there is a faith tradition called Hindu Dharma, and thus deny the legitmacy of all Hindu groups clamoring that Hinduism be given equal respect as other traditions. Madhav Deshpande followed the typical Indian leftist trope (advocated by other anti Hindi academics at that time, like Vasudha Dalmia) that Hinduism is a 19th century construct. In their testimonies to the California Board of Education, they referred derisively to our tradition as 'what is now called Hinduism since the 19th century' . They branded 11 year old Hindu children appearing as witnesses and victims of harrassment by their classmates ('do you worship monkeys'? 'Is the cow your mother'?) as 'Hindu fundamentalists/nationalists', and even teamed up with terror groups like FeTNA, Khalistani orgs and so on to brow beat Hinduism. This is NOT love for history - this is pure hatred. What is the use of this scholarship and chanting hari vitthal and so on if there is poison inside their heart? On Indology forums, he has actively championed the works of Hinduphobic Leftists like R S Sharma, Rajesh Kocchar and so on.

My own children have undergone education in US schools and I know what they and their classmates have faced. My son just zoned out in the classes on Hinduism and told me, "I just ignored what the teacher said, but you had told me the other side. Not all of my Indian friends knew the other side." Students have told me how our Devi Devas were branded as satan and witches by their teacher; that Hindus are responsible for the Kashmiri Muslim terrorism per their teachers and so on. This is REAL, not a fiction or my imagination. Textbooks of sixth grade are no place to promote Hinduphobia but these Gungadins will gladly collaborate with racists and terrorists to brow beat our children and brand them as Hindu nationalists! I actually now teach Hinduism in High and Middle Schools here (have gone to 6 in the past one year) and know for a fact how bad the textbooks are on India and Hindu Dharma. And these Gungadins and racists will make sure that they continue to be bad, prejudiced and hate filled.

There was rampant Jihads, Jaziya, witch hunting and so on in other faiths too, but the textbooks are silent about them; and these same Gungadins and racists suddenly forget their historical acumen when it comes to other cultures and traditions. Which shows their nefarious agendas at work.....

When it comes to the dignity of my children, I will not mince words. No parent should. The result of this hatemongering are seen frequently - just recently a Swaminarayan Temple here was vandalized. Our own local temple was vandalized just before it was inaugurated. 

I hope that the emails of Comrade Kamala Vishveshvaran  and of the the son of Baptist Christian Missionary parents in Shillong- Jonathan Mark Kenoyer, are made public soon.

Vishal

[Adithya Pillai]

Kannanji bhait jaiye, please. We need some language of thaNDa here. 

[Vishal Agarwal]

Dr Shri Misra,

I appreciate your concerns and in general, refrain from posting these types of messages. My reply was prompted by skepticism on whether such biases even exist or not. Many of these biases are prompted by the political proclivities of these same professors. Which is why, we find them signing political petitions in the name of 'academic free speech'. I have not merely given my opinions - I can quote chapter and verse to demonstrate their hatreds in writing. Much of this is available online for anyone to verify.

We cannot be so charitable towards Hinduphobes when they brand our children as dangerous Hindu Nationalists. I hope you understand what I mean. These are not just some scholars totally lost in their research, but activisits filled with hatred who lead a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde lifestyle. You know Witzel well to understand what I am saying. Being from India, and of a Hindu heritage, we often tend to think that scholars of our tradition are also necessarily good human beings, and worthy of respect. Alas, interactions with them often reveals that they are below average in their ethical values.

The Vedas can stay with Brahma, or they can come under the possession of Asura - isn't there a difference between the two situations, as our heritage teaches us?

Of course, people can chose to remain 'shatranj ke khiladi' while the Sepoys roll into Awadh of Shri Rama.

Vishal

[Vishal Agarwal]

Attached is a summary of the problems with CA Textbooks in 2005-2006. It was published in the journal 'History Today'. The paper gives 100s of real examples from these problematic textbooks, including dozens from Kenoyer's OUP book (I still have a copies of all of these textbooks preserved with me).

Permission is granted to reproduce the attachment on websites by me (the author).

Regards,

Vishal

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear members,

Many of the recent messages in the thread have arrived during my absence when I was away on my daily teaching work. I am just back. 

Some unmoderated members like Sri Vishal-ji have been sending messages that needed moderation. I apologise for their consequences. 

All the members making unnecessarily insensitive messages to this forum shall be brought under moderation. 

I request all members to stop sending messages to this thread. 

This thread is being immediately closed. 

Violators will be controlled through appropriate measures. 

Nagaraj

Moderator.