A Libertairan speaks.

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V-for-Vendicar

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Apr 29, 2008, 2:26:35 AM4/29/08
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wm.b...@gmail.com wm.b...@gmail.com

this is evidence consensual pedophilia is ok

The Rind Report, by 2 Temple University psychology professors.

The book, Harmful to Minors: The Dangers of Protecting Children from
Sex, by journalist Judith Levine.

The book, Love Against Hate, by psychiatrist Karl Levine, M.D.

The Kinsey Report

The Gay Report

The work of anthropologist Gilbert Herdt on the sambia people.

Your own common sense

Stop persecuting innocent people over a superstition.

IF YOU AGREE, COPY AND SEND THIS MESSAGE AROUND.


Patriot Games

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Apr 29, 2008, 9:44:45 AM4/29/08
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"V-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote in message
news:xczRj.55778$612....@read1.cgocable.net...

> wm.b...@gmail.com wm.b...@gmail.com
> this is evidence consensual pedophilia is ok
> Your own common sense

My common sense tells me that pedophiles should be EXECUTED.

PseuDoeCyAnts

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Apr 29, 2008, 3:13:00 PM4/29/08
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on Tue 29 Apr 2008 06:44:45a
"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> posted
in news:4817264f$0$3366$4c36...@roadrunner.com:

That's a visceral reaction, and an understandable one.

It is important not to leave your common sense behind here though.

A story from the D.C. NBC affiliate last February offers insight:

NBC4 - Washington D.C. - February 27, 2008
Police: More Than 20,000 VA. Computers Contain Child Porn
Company Seeks Out Computers Containing Child Pornography
<http://www.nbc4.com/news/15432277/detail.html?subid=10101441>

If you read the article carefully, you'll notice that 2 different
claims are made about the frequency of child pornography. In the
first, it says 1000 computers in Herndon have child pornography on
them. In the second it claims that 1000 people in Herndon, VA,
currently trade hardcore internet child porn. Both of these
assertions are not likely to be true.

I pulled a quick stat for Herndon's population from this link:
<http://www.city-data.com/city/Herndon-Virginia.html>
It may not be a valid stat, I did not double check.

It states Herndon, VA's population July, 2006 as: 21,877

If 1000 people in Herndon, VA, are active trading child
pornography, it is somewhere between 4% and 5% of its total
population. That statistic strikes me as being greatly
exaggerated. If it is not, then my perception that child
pornography is an aberrant behavior need be reconsidered, because
of its high frequency. You seem to be expressing the feeling that
it is perverse aberrant behavior, and is not a natural thing which
need be repressed for a higher societal good. If it is a factor
prevalent within a segment of society greater than 5% (there are
bound to others who have the desire, who are restrained from
acting because of societal taboos), our whole perspective on child
pornography, and by inference child molestation, need be reworked
to fit within the reality. I am not ready to address the issue in
this fashion, and would need a more thorough investigation into it
true frequency in society.

Consider what underlies this story though: Virginia State Police
desiring funding for snooping software and seeking legitimacy to
use it without restraint. Consider also, that even if this
software is flawless (extremely improbable), and does not throw
false positives, it does not detect whether a person at the
computer console was even aware they down loaded the image, and if
it was a part of a trojan in an email attachment, it could have
retransmitted the image to everyone in the user's address book
without their knowledge. It is also quite possible to download
child pornography unintentionally. Downloading files from the net
is a practise in blind faith. A user believes they are
downloading what is indicated in the link, but in reality, they
haven't the foggiest notion what a file really is until it is
investigated from their own computer. A compressed archive of
child porn downloaded this way would be decompressed onto a user's
hard drive, and even if it was immediately deleted, traces of it
would remain.

In either of these two instances, your visceral reaction would be
to kill the users, yet they are in fact innocent.

I do not know if this is the original poster's motivation, but
recently, The LP Party leadership took it upon themselves to
roll-over on the issue of personal privacy, because of child
pornography:

Libertarian party Press Release - April 25, 2008
Libertarians call for increased communication
to combat child pornography
<http://www.lp.org/media/article_578.shtml>

"FBI Chief Robert Mueller was correct when he said we are
losing the war on child pornography," says Libertarian Party
Executive Director Shane Cory, referring to comments made by
the head of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on Wednesday
before a House Judiciary Committee meeting. "We have an
obligation to protect children from sexual exploitation and
abuse, and we can do this by increasing communication between
state and federal agencies to help combat this repulsive
industry. While privacy rights should always be respected in
the pursuit of child pornographers, more needs to be done to
track down and prosecute the twisted individuals who exploit
innocent children."

It was reported elsewhere that Mueller was not just desirous of
monitoring the internet for Child Pornography, he wants to monitor
all traffic:

CNET News dot com - April 23, 2008
FBI wants widespread monitoring of 'illegal' Internet activity
by Anne Broache
<http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9926899-7.html>

Are you willing to just surrender you rights to the F.B.I, because
of claims its director makes to Congress, attempting to get
increased funding for his Agency? Remember that what you cede to
Dubya's FBI Director, could easily be inherited by HRC's FBI
director come January.

Additionally, there are possible underlying motivations with the
LP leadership in the timing of their release. Recently, the
website Third Party Watch unleashed an attack on LP Presidential
candidate, Mary Ruwart, regarding past statements she has made
about child pornography.
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/6a7g27>
Google Search:
<http://tinyurl.com/624ypa>

This website has since the beginning of the year been a sluttish
Bob Barr promoter. The site's publisher, Stephen P. Gordon, had
been at the forefront of pitching Barr as a viable LP candidate.
On April 6, 2008, Gordon fessed-up to working for the Bob Barr
exploratory committee.
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/5nlldt>

Yet on April 5, 2008, Gordon was still pitching Barr, supposedly
from a neutral vantage point.
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/5to877>

There is strong evidence that Gordon was already working for Barr
before April 5, 2008, and since his admission of working for Barr,
Gordon's pro-Barr posts have been spotty about clear disclosure
statements listing this bias. Other posts on the website with
authorship attributed non-specifically, that are decidedly
pro-Barr, should also have this disclosure with them, because
Gordon is the site's publisher, yet they have not. The site is
clearly biased pro-Barr, and by implication biased against his
comepetitors in the LP's Presidential campaign.

A recent post at Reason Magazine referred to the website, Third
Party Watch, as "invaluable", when referencing their original
Ruwart hit piece:

Reason Magazine - April 23, 2008
Suffer the Little Children
David Weigel
<http://www.reason.com/blog/show/126164.html>

Is Weigel an idiot, and unable to see the clear evidence that
Third Party Watch is a Bob Barr whore, or is he also
pro-Barr without offering disclosure?

--- ---- ----- ------ ------- --------

I am not here to defend Mary Ruwart's opinions. She is ably
capable of doing that herself. I will however mention that what
she said in 1992 about child pornography was not out of line with
many members of the LP Party then. The LP's position on children's
rights has always conflicted a bit with my personal beliefs.
Children are not adults. Just the same, if a child is old enough
to be tried as an adult, and be sentenced to adult penal
institutions for crimes committed, surely they are also old enough
to freely make personal sexual decisions. It is hypocritically
odious to assert otherwise.

Finally, what the substantive issue truly should be regarding
child pornography, as well as child molestation is: these are
reprehensible crimes, committed by individuals who need be
restrained from interacting freely in society, but the victims are
not MY children, they are yours. It is not my fault that you
possess incompetent parenting skills. You have no legitimate right
to steal my personal liberties, because of you personal failings.

Nobody has ever honestly claimed that Liberty was the easy path.
Instead; It is the proper path.

V-for-Vendicar

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Apr 29, 2008, 4:15:23 PM4/29/08
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"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> wrote

> My common sense tells me that pedophiles should be EXECUTED.

Your Libertarian Brothers disagree. They hold that Children have the same
rights as adults, and therefore the same right to prostitute themselves as
adults.

Anything else is pure slavery and pure Statist Communism, they say.

V-for-Vendicar

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Apr 29, 2008, 5:06:08 PM4/29/08
to

"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote

> Finally, what the substantive issue truly should be regarding
> child pornography, as well as child molestation is: these are
> reprehensible crimes, committed by individuals who need be
> restrained from interacting freely in society, but the victims are
> not MY children, they are yours. It is not my fault that you
> possess incompetent parenting skills. You have no legitimate right
> to steal my personal liberties, because of you personal failings.

Of course the Libertarian will claim that they are only crimes when the
child isn't a willing participant.


* Nambla fact file *

The North American Man/Boy Love Association is a civil rights/ political
organization based on strict Libertarian principles. We support non
coercive, CONSENSUAL intergenerational relationships and help educate
society about the true nature of such relationships.

We were founded in Boston in 1978 and currently have more than one
thousand members worldwide.

NAMBLA activities include speaking to university & community groups,
appearing on television and radio, conducting public forums, and holding
an annual NAMBLA conference.

NAMBLA publishes the "NAMBLA Bulletin" which is sent by first class mail
to our members. (It includes news, feature articles, letters, book
reviews, short stories, etc.) We also publish a literary Journal, books
and other material (all of which are strictly legal).

We also have a publications list which includes over 100 titles of books
(fiction and non-fiction) and periodicals which are available for sale.

We march in Gay & Lesbian Pride Day parades in Boston, New York and San
Francisco. And are involved in other gay & lesbian activities here and
abroad.

Our membership includes people of all ages, genders, and sexual
orientations. (The youngest member of our Bulletin Collective was 11
years old when he began writing a feature column for our publication.)

Although NAMBLA members hold diverse political views, as a group we take
a pro liberty stance on the rights of the individual, focusing on youth
liberation and empowerment.

NAMBLA does not provide referrals or assistance for people seeking
sexual contacts, nor do we engage in activities that violate the law. We
unequivocally condemn all coercive acts, sexual or otherwise, and we
seek to overturn all regulation, expecially those restricting
non-coercive social condut.

If you are interested in receiving a sample copy of our Bulletin,
information regarding membership or our publications list please write
to the address below.

A list of recommended readings, quotes about intergenerational
relationship and NAMBLA by prominent people in the movement, and a short
annotated list of research in the area are available via email upon
request.

Yours in Liberation, Ron Radow

From Libertynet: Libertarian news for a free America.

Patriot Games

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Apr 29, 2008, 6:42:16 PM4/29/08
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"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A8F7C85654BOr...@198.186.190.163...

> on Tue 29 Apr 2008 06:44:45a
> "Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> posted
> in news:4817264f$0$3366$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
>> "V-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote in
>> message news:xczRj.55778$612....@read1.cgocable.net...
>>> wm.b...@gmail.com wm.b...@gmail.com
>>> this is evidence consensual pedophilia is ok
>>> Your own common sense
>> My common sense tells me that pedophiles should be EXECUTED.
> That's a visceral reaction, and an understandable one.

More than that...

> It is important not to leave your common sense behind here though.
> A story from the D.C. NBC affiliate last February offers insight:
> NBC4 - Washington D.C. - February 27, 2008
> Police: More Than 20,000 VA. Computers Contain Child Porn
> Company Seeks Out Computers Containing Child Pornography
> <http://www.nbc4.com/news/15432277/detail.html?subid=10101441>
> If you read the article carefully, you'll notice that 2 different
> claims are made about the frequency of child pornography. In the
> first, it says 1000 computers in Herndon have child pornography on
> them. In the second it claims that 1000 people in Herndon, VA,
> currently trade hardcore internet child porn. Both of these
> assertions are not likely to be true.
> I pulled a quick stat for Herndon's population from this link:
> <http://www.city-data.com/city/Herndon-Virginia.html>
> It may not be a valid stat, I did not double check.
> It states Herndon, VA's population July, 2006 as: 21,877
> If 1000 people in Herndon, VA, are active trading child
> pornography, it is somewhere between 4% and 5% of its total
> population. That statistic strikes me as being greatly
> exaggerated.

I sure HOPE that's an exaggerated figure!

> If it is not, then my perception that child
> pornography is an aberrant behavior need be reconsidered, because
> of its high frequency.

Same here.

> You seem to be expressing the feeling that
> it is perverse aberrant behavior, and is not a natural thing which
> need be repressed for a higher societal good. If it is a factor
> prevalent within a segment of society greater than 5% (there are
> bound to others who have the desire, who are restrained from
> acting because of societal taboos), our whole perspective on child
> pornography, and by inference child molestation, need be reworked
> to fit within the reality. I am not ready to address the issue in
> this fashion, and would need a more thorough investigation into it
> true frequency in society.

Here's my take on it. Its a Sexual Orientation. Just like Heterosexual.
Just like Homosexual. Add Pedophile to that list. I also am of the opinion
that Sexual Orientation is genetic.

So in a Pedophile we have a person that CANNOT be 'fixed.' No amount of
surgery or chemistry or counseling is going to defeat a human being's
genetically predetermined Sexual Orientation short of rendering that person
a zombie.

If it makes people happy I'll apologize in advance but pedophiles are
monumentally dangerous, irreparably mutated, and we must permanently remove
them from society.

Execution, prison, their own special island, whatever....

Maybe in the future we'll be able to detect this genetic mutation in the
womb and make everybody's life easier....

> Consider what underlies this story though: Virginia State Police
> desiring funding for snooping software and seeking legitimacy to
> use it without restraint. Consider also, that even if this
> software is flawless (extremely improbable), and does not throw
> false positives, it does not detect whether a person at the
> computer console was even aware they down loaded the image, and if
> it was a part of a trojan in an email attachment, it could have
> retransmitted the image to everyone in the user's address book
> without their knowledge. It is also quite possible to download
> child pornography unintentionally. Downloading files from the net
> is a practise in blind faith. A user believes they are
> downloading what is indicated in the link, but in reality, they
> haven't the foggiest notion what a file really is until it is
> investigated from their own computer. A compressed archive of
> child porn downloaded this way would be decompressed onto a user's
> hard drive, and even if it was immediately deleted, traces of it
> would remain.
> In either of these two instances, your visceral reaction would be
> to kill the users, yet they are in fact innocent.

We can put them on trial if you insist! ;)

I'm automatically suspicious of their software until I know more about how
it works.

Most people have dynamic IPs so that could make the numbers falsely larger.

How do you know what is child pornography? You download it, look at it,
make the decision and retain the file name (and size and other attributes).
But a file name is just ASCII characters and could be anything and the name
has absolutely no relationship to its content. Even filename + extension +
size doesn't guarantee that its the same file you originally marked as child
pornography.

And we don't have a lot of control of what we download. When you click on a
link you get what's there and it is ON your computer BEFORE you see it.
Depending on your settings it could be there for years or even forever.

And with a little piece of script a webpage can cause you to download images
that you never even see... That's preloading.

And you could be Redirected from one link (that you thought was safe) to
another, causing a download, without even knowing it.

Scary thought! HRC having an FBI Director in the real world.

Here's the REAL problem. We know child pornography is not a big deal in
certain countries. We know who those countries are. We know those
websites. WE KNOW WHO BRINGS that FOREIGN traffic into America.

So why are we going after ONE PERVERT in Herndon, VA, when WE SHOULD BE
filing charges against AT&T or Verizon, or THE REAL SOURCE of the material
entering the country?

I've asked this more than once in the past. If the pervert who downloads
2,000 pictures of naked chilren is BAD (and he is) then HOW IS IT POSSIBLE
that the Service Provider who transferred 100,000,000 images a month is NOT
BAD?

No it isn't. We don't try children as adults because we think they are
adults, we do that to get around having to automatically release them when
they turn 18.

Patriot Games

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Apr 29, 2008, 6:44:13 PM4/29/08
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"V-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote in message
news:ulLRj.56299$612....@read1.cgocable.net...

What "Libertarian Brothers?"

They don't even have an official political party....


V-for-Vendicar

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Apr 29, 2008, 7:44:10 PM4/29/08
to

"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> wrote

> What "Libertarian Brothers?"
>
> They don't even have an official political party....

MMMMMMOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_%28United_States%29


http://www.lp.org/


PseuDoeCyAnts

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Apr 30, 2008, 8:09:41 AM4/30/08
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on Tue 29 Apr 2008 02:06:08p
"V-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> posted
in news:35MRj.56307$612....@read1.cgocable.net:

>
> "PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote
>> Finally, what the substantive issue truly should be regarding
>> child pornography, as well as child molestation is: these are
>> reprehensible crimes, committed by individuals who need be
>> restrained from interacting freely in society, but the victims
>> are not MY children, they are yours. It is not my fault that
>> you possess incompetent parenting skills. You have no
>> legitimate right to steal my personal liberties, because of you
>> personal failings.
>
> Of course the Libertarian will claim that they are only crimes
> when the
> child isn't a willing participant.
>
>
> * Nambla fact file *
>
> The North American Man/Boy Love Association is a civil rights/
> political organization based on strict Libertarian principles.
> We support non coercive, CONSENSUAL intergenerational
> relationships and help educate society about the true nature of
> such relationships.
>

It is not proper to make broad generalisation for a whole party
based on positions of just a few.


There is a much larger percentage of Repbublicans who support
human torture than there are libertarians who support child
molestation. There are many Democrats who do not believe that a
Constitutional Amendment is necessary to strip away the right to
be armed.

Last July in the Senate the was a cloture vote to end debate on
Specter's Amendment to restore habeas corpus rights to the
detainees from the GWOT, and bring it to a vote. Cloture votes
require a super majority of 60 to pass in the Senate. Only 9
Republican Senators stood in defense of habeas corpus on that day,
a natural right of all humans, not bounded by citizenry.
Democrats welcome leftist socialists within their party, who have
no belief in democratic processes, and would at the first
opportunity, strip away the right to vote from the people, if it
meant they would control in perpetuity.

Neither side is worth a shit, and the 2-party system is a game of
good-cop/bad-cop played out for the people who have let themselves
be chained inside the bipolar polity. Both sides will take
advantage of any method the other party has used to usurp the
people's liberty in the past. Both parties' leadership is
comprised of the Rank who lie cheat and steal from their
membership of defiled. Maybe we should assume all Repbublicans
have Craiglike wide stances, or Vitter's adulterous sense of
morality. Democrats have Spitzer, and a past NJ governor.
Republicans have Abramoff, DeLay, Cunningham, and many more, but
Democrats have William J. Jefferson, and an imprisoned Trafficant.

Greens are ideological authoritarians, who beleive they have the
right to subvert the laws of the land, because they cannot succeed
at their goals by promoting their visions victoriously in the free
marketplace of ideas.

Bro, about that mote in your eye, better get your ass over in
front of a mirror ASAP, and that is just the front door to the
glass house you reside in. Quick anybody, hand me a rock!

Your assertions about libertarians are not even close to being
valid, and your example of NAMBLA speaks more of your own personal
psychological repressions than it does of libertarians' intents.
Just how large to you believe NAMBLA's membership is presently?
Why did you choose to single NAMBLA out, when there are far more
cases of little boy child molestation directly tied to the
Catholic priesthood, The Boys Scouts of America, or the Baptist
Youth Ministries? There is no direct correlation to homosexuality
and pedophilia. Where that myth gets its power is from idiots who
assume that sexual orientation of a pedophilile can be directly
derived from the predominant gender of their victims. Yet when
the standard used to assess sexual preferences of a pedophile is
their gender preferences in adult to adult sexual relationships,
the frequency of homosexuals who are pedophiles drops to below the
frequency of homosexuals in the total population. Pedophiles most
often choose their targets, not because of gender, but because of
opportunity. The reason that pedophile Catholic Priests have
predominently preyed upon boys as their victims is not as much a
function of homosexuality as it is a function of Catholic
families' gender based child-rearing practises. Little Mary Ellen
is not likely to be allowed to trim candle wicks alone with Father
Bumsfielder down at St. Buggerers Chapel, but it's good for
Antonin Jr's development of soul.

As to adults who actively seek out adolescents for sexual
partners, judging from what I read in the paper, there seems to be
no tilt towards homosexuals as perpetrators.

I was greatly amused by claims that Mark Foley was a pedophile.
His contacts were Pages, who were sons of GOP contributors, and
pedophilia is by definition sexual relations with pre-adolescent
children. If Foley is a pedophile, then Republicans have a lot of
explaining to do about their 16, 17 and 18 year old sons,
regarding why their testicles have not yet descended. That would
go a long way in illuminating why College Republican chapters are
avoided by on campus Military Recruiters, and here I thought it
was because they are afflicted, just like their daddies' with the
genetic disorders of Weak Knees, Jaundiced Abdomens, and
Alabaster-Hued Livers. Silly me, the cause was actually
Acute Genitalia Deficit Disorder (AGDD).

Clearly, your motivation is not to protect children from being
molested, but instead to falsely allege a correlation between
child molestation and homosexuality as you cast false dispersions
upon libertarians. It is you who has ridden into the valley of the
wide-stance, because of this. Yet you laughably shriek
accusations at libertarians for your own cold-sweat awakenings in
the dead of night from your sweet dreams of sword-fighting with
Peter Pan. TinkerBell, you really ought to seek out competent
psychological help.

Patriot Games

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Apr 30, 2008, 8:18:38 AM4/30/08
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"V-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote in message
news:cpORj.56336$612....@read1.cgocable.net...

Sucker.....

Nothing about "Children have the same rights as adults, and therefore the

same right to prostitute themselves as adults."

Try again?

> http://www.lp.org/

National Platform of the Libertarian Party
http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#sexgend

Nothing about "Children have the same rights as adults, and therefore the

same right to prostitute themselves as adults."

Try again?


PseuDoeCyAnts

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Apr 30, 2008, 9:07:35 AM4/30/08
to
on Tue 29 Apr 2008 03:42:16p
"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> posted
in news:4817a44a$0$3394$4c36...@roadrunner.com:

You understood the main drift of what I was trying to convey to
you. You may not understand the inherent differences between
pedophilia (sexual relations with pre-adolescents) and sexual
relations with post-pubescent minors, and the difference is a big
one, although I have no problem with either being a criminal act
(one exception below). Pedophilia is preponderately not motivated
as a method to seek sexual gratification. It is instead a twisted
drive to dominate a child, and the gender of the victim, as well
as sexual satisfaction is not the underlying motivations
compelling the act. There may be some genetic correlation to it,
but the strongest tie found so far is having been sexually
molested as a pre-adolescent youth. What is known about presently
about the causes of pedophillia are environmental factors, not
genetic.

My one exception to statutory rape, would be in cases where the
perpetrator is barely over eithteen and the victim is barely under
the age of eighteen, and the sex was cosnensual. Neither are
acting unnaturally in this circumstance, and the one who is 18
should bot be facing a felony for this. It's an entirely
different ball game when the age disparity is great. I've never
understood this attradtion to great age disparity. I've never
been married, and I've discovered over the years, that my age
preferences for female relationships has generally traversed along
with my own. admittedly, as my bow line has sunk a bit lower into
the water the wake travels back a bit further, but not
excessively. At this point in my life, I hope to have the good
fortune of living long and healthly enough to become the subject
of laviscious gossip at the retirement community's rec center.
How is that for a goal in life?

>
> I've asked this more than once in the past. If the pervert who
> downloads 2,000 pictures of naked chilren is BAD (and he is)
> then HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that the Service Provider who
> transferred 100,000,000 images a month is NOT BAD?
>

If they have knowingly allowed content to be propagated
through-out their network without taking any action to stop it,
then they are guilty of a chargeable offense. If they have not
been cognizant of any specific child pornography, then they can
rightfully stand upon a defense of safe-harbor. ISPs should not
be the content police, and if they ever agree to do this, it will
be because Congress has sold us out on the concept of free
information flow, and the Networks will then be more intent on
charging byte for byte all content that flows through their lines,
than they will be to stem criminal activity that flows through
their network. Any actions that lead to indictments, and
prosecutions will be nothing more than PR dog and pony shows for
the ISPs.

The government built the origional infrastructure for the net, and
has always been far too willing to give up monetary incentives for
private development of it. There is a substantial portion of the
internet in America, which was built directly fromm taxpayers'
monies. Because of this, claims of it being private property are
specious. The net is a public resource, and if the Network
Providers don't like it, they should be forced to pay back into
the government's treasury the financial advantages (net profits
from the investment included) they received for using the public
funding in the first place. It is not right to be taxed for
services one does not desire or use, but it is even more of an
obscenity simply give away at less than fair value, what was
produced from public funding to business interests, just for the
sake of privatisation, without first recouping the investments
plus minimally, a reasonable interest fee.

This is another place where I have contention with many
libertarians. There is no Constitutional Natural Right to Possess
Property. Private Property is indeed an essential part of a truly
free society, but the right itself is not a natural right farther
than an idividual is able directly utilise the property for their
benefit. All other forms of property, absentee landholding,
legacy transfers, intellectual property, etc. are grants from a
vigorous state, yet libertarians often state that they believe
they have a right to possess these forms of property, even as they
claim the want an anemic state power. It cannot be both ways, and
still remian a free society. Their path leads to a condition of
private feudalism, and a continuous class conflict.

And lastly, I still disagree with your assessment regarding trying
children as adults. I can understand a need for a longer
sentences than current juvenile law provides for extraordinary
circumstances, but the proper response to this would be to alter
existing juvenile law, not to toss children into the adult
judiciary and penal systems. Again, if they are old enough to be
tried as adults, then they should be considered to be lawful
adults from all angles. If they are to be held fully responsible
for their actions criminally, then they should also be considered
to be adults and responsible for their social actions. This is
nothing more than an equal application of law; a foundational
precept in a free society.

PseuDoeCyAnts

unread,
Apr 30, 2008, 10:22:44 AM4/30/08
to
on Wed 30 Apr 2008 05:18:38a
"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> posted
in news:48186392$0$7699$4c36...@roadrunner.com:

This guy is a clown, who is probably driven by an underlying urge
just dying to get out and do the soft-shoe in a performance for
one hapless soul who just happens to be occupied in the adjacent
public toilet stall.

There is no substantiation to what he claims about the LP. There
have been and are libertarians who believe that children do
possess largely the same set of rights as do adults, and almos all
libertarians believe that children get the shaft when it comes to
due process and liberty, but there has never been any party plank
close to what he is alleging.

At the same time, what is presently the LP platform is but a
shadow of what it once was. The Party has been jacked by
conservative political activists, who have under the guise of
practicality. It is the same sort of BS that has destroyed the
soul of the Republican Party: A Big Circus Tent of Inclusivenenss.
There is nothing wrong in increasing membership, if the members
agree to the party's underlying philosophy, but just as the
Newright jacked The Republican Party away from real conservatives,
all the while claiming themselves to be conservative, The LP is
now being flooded with many of the same type of right-siders, who
have decided to redefine what libertarianism is, claiming a need
for the party to moderate its extreme views. what they really
mean is that the social liberty side of libertarian theory, which
is the flip-side of the economic part, need be tossed out the
window. What is left is just another newright distortion, but
this time wrapped up in a libertarian skin, as they have shed
their appropriated conservative skin after polluting it.

it cannot be libertarianism, when the equivocate about adult drug
usage, or rights of homosexuals. It is not a libertarianism that
during the 2006 mid-term elections pressed tirelessly for eminent
domain initiatives, that when investigated, exposed legislated
remedies that in any controversy between a small individual
landholder and a collectivist business entity that a community
must decide between, the collectivist business entity wins every
time. It is not a real libertarianism, whic at the same time is
was working towards a pro-corporate view of eminent domain,
ignored the clear and egregious violations of humans rights which
were being done by the Bush administration. due process of law,
and habeas corpus are rights of humanity, and are not bounded by
citizenry. If these are not rights secured in their possession by
all, then they are grants given to a citizenry by a magnanimous
state. A dangerous idea, that will in the end be fatal to
liberty. what a government has given, it will surely some day
take away. True Friends of Liberty understand this clearly, and
fight for the natural rights of even our most dangerous enemies.

This is not madness, it is pure original intent:

"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty.
It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply
even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty
secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if
he violates this duty he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself."

Thomas Paine,
"Dissertations on First Principles of Government", 1795

--- ---- ----- ------

Enough of the philosophical musing though.
If you're interested in what the LP once stood for,
The internet Archives can provide time-capsule glimpses.

Here is a complete list of the Internet Archives' holdings of the
LP website's published party platform from Aug.2000 to Mar 2005:
<http://web.archive.org/web/*hh_/www.lp.org/issues/campplat/>

Here's the platform from October 30, 2000
<http://tinyurl.com/62xzmx>

Here's the platform from September 24, 2004
<http://tinyurl.com/564nkm>
a very nice one-page printable format on this link too.

From the latter link, I provide the two most relevant planks
to this topic verbatim:

------------------------------------{

= I Individual Rights and Civil Order =

=== 21 Families and Children ===

==== The Issue:

Government involvement in traditional parenting
responsibilities has weakened families and replaced
family-taught morals with government-taught morals.

==== The Principle:

Families and households are private institutions, which should
be free from government intrusion and interference. Parents,
or other guardians, have the right to raise their children
according to their own standards and beliefs, without
interference by government -- unless they are abusing the
children. Because parents have these rights, a child may not
be able to fully exercise his or her rights in the context of
family life. However, children always have the right to
establish their maturity by assuming administration and
protection of their own rights, ending dependency upon their
parents or other guardians, and assuming all responsibilities
of adulthood. A child is a human being and, as such, deserves
to be treated justly.

Parents have no right to abandon or recklessly endanger their
children. Whenever they are unable or unwilling to raise their
children, they have the obligation to find other person(s)
willing to assume guardianship.

==== Solutions:

We recognize that the determination of child abuse can be very
difficult. Only local courts should be empowered to remove a
child from his or her home, with the consent of the community.
This is not meant to preclude appropriate action when a child
is in immediate physical danger.

==== Transitional Action:

We would repeal all laws that impede these processes, notably
those restricting private adoption services. In particular, we
call for the repeal of all laws restricting transracial
adoption. We oppose laws infringing on children's rights to
work or learn, such as child labor laws and compulsory
education laws. We also oppose the use of curfews based on
age.

We call for an end to the practice in many states of jailing
children not accused of any crime. We call for repeal of all
"children's codes" or statutes which abridge due process
protections for young people.

=== 22. Sexual Rights ===

==== The Issue:

Government has presumed to decide acceptability over sexual
practices in personal relationships, imposing a particular
code of moral and social values and displacing personal choice
in such matters.

==== The Principle:

Adults have the right to private choice
in consensual sexual activity.

==== Solutions:

We advocate an end to all government attempts to dictate,
prohibit, control or encourage any private lifestyle, living
arrangement or contractual relationship.

==== Transitional Action:

We would repeal existing laws and policies intended to
condemn, affirm, encourage or deny sexual lifestyles, or any
set of attitudes about such lifestyles.

}------------------------------------

So maybe you have disagreement with the positions stated here, but
it should be obvious that there is no support for pedophillia
stated in it.

Patriot Games

unread,
Apr 30, 2008, 5:51:41 PM4/30/08
to
"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A903E8F9795Or...@198.186.190.163...

> on Tue 29 Apr 2008 03:42:16p
> "Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> posted
> in news:4817a44a$0$3394$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
>> Here's my take on it. Its a Sexual Orientation. Just like
>> Heterosexual. Just like Homosexual. Add Pedophile to that list.
>> I also am of the opinion that Sexual Orientation is genetic.
>> So in a Pedophile we have a person that CANNOT be 'fixed.' No
>> amount of surgery or chemistry or counseling is going to defeat
>> a human being's genetically predetermined Sexual Orientation
>> short of rendering that person a zombie.
>> If it makes people happy I'll apologize in advance but
>> pedophiles are monumentally dangerous, irreparably mutated, and
>> we must permanently remove them from society.
>> Execution, prison, their own special island, whatever....
>> Maybe in the future we'll be able to detect this genetic
>> mutation in the womb and make everybody's life easier....
> You understood the main drift of what I was trying to convey to
> you. You may not understand the inherent differences between
> pedophilia (sexual relations with pre-adolescents) and sexual
> relations with post-pubescent minors, and the difference is a big
> one, although I have no problem with either being a criminal act
> (one exception below).

"Post-pubescent minors" are will ultimately be a legal definition.

> Pedophilia is preponderately not motivated
> as a method to seek sexual gratification. It is instead a twisted
> drive to dominate a child, and the gender of the victim, as well
> as sexual satisfaction is not the underlying motivations
> compelling the act.

You are completely wrong.

ped·o·phil·i·a (ped?-fil'e-?, ped?-)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
noun - The act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual
activity with a child or children.

pe•do•phil•i•a

Pronunciation: (pe"du-fil'e-u), [key]
—n. Psychiatry.
sexual desire in an adult for a child.

pedophilia
Function: noun
sexual perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object.

Pedophilia

Definition
Pedophilia is a paraphilia that involves an abnormal interest in children. A
paraphilia is a disorder that is characterized by recurrent intense sexual
urges and sexually arousing fantasies generally involving: nonhuman objects;
the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner (not merely
simulated); or animals, children, or other nonconsenting persons. Pedophilia
is also a psychosexual disorder in which the fantasy or actual act of
engaging in sexual activity with prepubertal children is the preferred or
exclusive means of achieving sexual excitement and gratification. It may be
directed toward children of the same sex or children of the other sex. Some
pedophiles are attracted to both boys and girls. Some are attracted only to
children, while others are attracted to adults as well as to children.

Pedophilia is defined by mental health professionals as a mental disorder,
but the American legal system defines acting on a pedophilic urge as a
criminal act.

Description
The focus of pedophilia is sexual activity with a child. Many courts
interpret this reference to age to mean children under the age of 18. Most
mental health professionals, however, confine the definition of pedophilia
to sexual activity with prepubescent children, who are generally age 13 or
younger. The term ephebophilia, derived from the Greek word for "youth," is
sometimes used to describe sexual interest in young people in the first
stages of puberty.

The sexual behaviors involved in pedophilia cover a range of activities and
may or may not involve the use of force. Some pedophiles limit their
behaviors to exposing themselves or masturbating in front of the child, or
fondling or undressing the child, but without genital contact. Others,
however, compel the child to participate in oral sex or full genital
intercourse.

The most common overt aspect of pedophilia is an intense interest in
children. There is no typical pedophile. Pedophiles may be young or old,
male or female, although the great majority are males. Unfortunately, some
pedophiles are professionals who are entrusted with educating or maintaining
the health and well-being of young persons, while others are entrusted with
children to whom they are related by blood or marriage.
http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/pedophilia

Patriot Games

unread,
Apr 30, 2008, 6:30:14 PM4/30/08
to
"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A903E8F9795Or...@198.186.190.163...

> on Tue 29 Apr 2008 03:42:16p
> "Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> posted
> in news:4817a44a$0$3394$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
> My one exception to statutory rape, would be in cases where the
> perpetrator is barely over eithteen and the victim is barely under
> the age of eighteen, and the sex was cosnensual. Neither are
> acting unnaturally in this circumstance, and the one who is 18
> should bot be facing a felony for this.

Our legal systenm is already cumbersome ebough without adding 128 ddifferent
versions of statutory rape. Rare issues like this are handled by
prosecutors and judges.

> It's an entirely
> different ball game when the age disparity is great. I've never
> understood this attradtion to great age disparity.

You CAN'T understand it. If you were a pedophile you COULD NOT understand
not being one.

> I've never
> been married, and I've discovered over the years, that my age
> preferences for female relationships has generally traversed along
> with my own.

We call that "normal." We base calling that "normal" because about 99.99%
of the human population is like that.

I'm a late-50s heterosexual male who fell in love with my wife a hundred
plus years ago and we're still stupid in love today with 5 kids and 11
grandkids. I can't explain it, it happenned.

I can't explain homosexuality either EXCEPT as an OPPOSITE of myself. I'm
110% heterosecual and 110% not in any way attracted to men. So I simply
ASSUME that a homosexual would be exactly the same just in reverse.

And the same thing is true of pedophiles. That doesn't count as an
"understanding" in any serious clinical setting but it helps differentiating
the sexual orientations.

> admittedly, as my bow line has sunk a bit lower into
> the water the wake travels back a bit further, but not
> excessively. At this point in my life, I hope to have the good
> fortune of living long and healthly enough to become the subject
> of laviscious gossip at the retirement community's rec center.
> How is that for a goal in life?

We all need goals. This is a secret, don't tell anybody, but if I make to
85 my goal at 85 will be to strip butt naked except for black socks and
wingtips and a long overcoat and go to downtown Tampa and ride the elevators
flashing young secretaries until they arrest me!

I never even had to try to ne a law-abiding citizen, it came natural and I
feel I'm missing part of the American Experience having never been arrested.

>> I've asked this more than once in the past. If the pervert who
>> downloads 2,000 pictures of naked chilren is BAD (and he is)
>> then HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that the Service Provider who
>> transferred 100,000,000 images a month is NOT BAD?
> If they have knowingly allowed content to be propagated
> through-out their network without taking any action to stop it,
> then they are guilty of a chargeable offense.

Every newsgroup server (and actual computer) that hosts the binary
newsgroups has hundreds of thousands of pictures and movie clips of child
pornography on them RIGHT NOW. Many of those servers are physically located
in the continental US - RIGHT NOW.

Its NOT POSSIBLE to NOT KNOW they contain child pornography because the
newsgroup names SAY SO and the newsgroup files SAY SO.

> ISPs should not
> be the content police, and if they ever agree to do this, it will
> be because Congress has sold us out on the concept of free
> information flow, and the Networks will then be more intent on
> charging byte for byte all content that flows through their lines,
> than they will be to stem criminal activity that flows through
> their network. Any actions that lead to indictments, and
> prosecutions will be nothing more than PR dog and pony shows for
> the ISPs.

Feel free to explain how Uncle Milton living in a suburb of Houston is EVIL
because he has 400 pictures of naked children but his ISP, 1 mile away, has
400,000 pictures of naked children?

The simple solution is to take the 'police' burden OFF the ISP in same way
we take it off the Bartender for the drunk driver. The Feds can easily find
to foreign source of child porn and issue a block order to all US ISPs.

> The government built the origional infrastructure for the net, and
> has always been far too willing to give up monetary incentives for
> private development of it. There is a substantial portion of the
> internet in America, which was built directly fromm taxpayers'
> monies. Because of this, claims of it being private property are
> specious.

Not really. Most of the Internet in America was built on porn revenue. The
porn sites were the first high volume users who paid for the expansion of
T1s.

> This is another place where I have contention with many
> libertarians. There is no Constitutional Natural Right to Possess
> Property. Private Property is indeed an essential part of a truly
> free society, but the right itself is not a natural right farther
> than an idividual is able directly utilise the property for their
> benefit. All other forms of property, absentee landholding,
> legacy transfers, intellectual property, etc. are grants from a
> vigorous state, yet libertarians often state that they believe
> they have a right to possess these forms of property, even as they
> claim the want an anemic state power. It cannot be both ways, and
> still remian a free society. Their path leads to a condition of
> private feudalism, and a continuous class conflict.

I don't claim to know about natural rights. The only natural right I
understand is the right to defend myself, my family, and my stuff.

I don't possess private property because I bought it. I POSSESS it because
YOU can't take it or buy it from me. If that leads to class conflict then
let's get that started now while I'm still young enough to shoot straight!

> And lastly, I still disagree with your assessment regarding trying
> children as adults. I can understand a need for a longer
> sentences than current juvenile law provides for extraordinary
> circumstances, but the proper response to this would be to alter
> existing juvenile law, not to toss children into the adult
> judiciary and penal systems.

That would be the better approach be we frequently go with what is expedient
instead.

Right now in our legal system we have:

1) Not guilty.
2) Guilty.
3) Crazy.

What we really need is:

4) Guilty AND Crazy.

But we don't and that's why we say Jeffrey Dahmer is Guilty but not Crazy.
Of course he was completely freaking crazy! But if we let him out of our
grasp some dumbass shrink could declare him SANE in 5 years...

That just another example going with what is expedient.

Patriot Games

unread,
Apr 30, 2008, 6:38:37 PM4/30/08
to
"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A904B4DD2A6BOr...@198.186.190.165...

> on Wed 30 Apr 2008 05:18:38a
> "Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> posted
> in news:48186392$0$7699$4c36...@roadrunner.com:
>> "V-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote in
>> message news:cpORj.56336$612....@read1.cgocable.net...
>> Sucker.....
>> Nothing about "Children have the same rights as adults, and
>> therefore the same right to prostitute themselves as adults."
>> Try again?
>>> http://www.lp.org/
>> National Platform of the Libertarian Party
>> http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml#sexgend
>> Nothing about "Children have the same rights as adults, and
>> therefore the same right to prostitute themselves as adults."
>> Try again?
> This guy is a clown, who is probably driven by an underlying urge
> just dying to get out and do the soft-shoe in a performance for
> one hapless soul who just happens to be occupied in the adjacent
> public toilet stall.

Ahh. He's a one of them Wide Stance Toe-Tappers!

Bwahahahahahhahaha!!

> There is no substantiation to what he claims about the LP. There
> have been and are libertarians who believe that children do
> possess largely the same set of rights as do adults, and almos all
> libertarians believe that children get the shaft when it comes to
> due process and liberty, but there has never been any party plank
> close to what he is alleging.
> At the same time, what is presently the LP platform is but a
> shadow of what it once was. The Party has been jacked by
> conservative political activists, who have under the guise of
> practicality. It is the same sort of BS that has destroyed the
> soul of the Republican Party: A Big Circus Tent of Inclusivenenss.

Inclusiveness is wonderful and makes for sweet TV commercials but somebody
forgot to keep the RIFF-RAFF out!

> There is nothing wrong in increasing membership, if the members
> agree to the party's underlying philosophy, but just as the
> Newright jacked The Republican Party away from real conservatives,
> all the while claiming themselves to be conservative, The LP is
> now being flooded with many of the same type of right-siders, who
> have decided to redefine what libertarianism is, claiming a need
> for the party to moderate its extreme views. what they really
> mean is that the social liberty side of libertarian theory, which
> is the flip-side of the economic part, need be tossed out the
> window. What is left is just another newright distortion, but
> this time wrapped up in a libertarian skin, as they have shed
> their appropriated conservative skin after polluting it.

Don't take your seatbelt off just yet. Democrat, Republican, Libertarian,
(etc,) are ALL being redefined right now. I'm sure you can see that today's
Democrats are pure Socialists and many (most?) of todays Republicans are
actually traditional Democrats!

Everything is getting shifted around and probably won't settle down for a
few more decades.

> --- ---- ----- ------


> So maybe you have disagreement with the positions stated here, but
> it should be obvious that there is no support for pedophillia
> stated in it.

"V-for-Vendicar" is a common fool.

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 1, 2008, 2:04:01 AM5/1/08
to

>> * Nambla fact file *
>>
>> The North American Man/Boy Love Association is a civil rights/
>> political organization based on strict Libertarian principles.
>> We support non coercive, CONSENSUAL intergenerational
>> relationships and help educate society about the true nature of
>> such relationships.


"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote


> It is not proper to make broad generalisation for a whole party
> based on positions of just a few.

The Legalization of pedophelia is built directly into the Libertarian
Ideology.

As is the legalization of animal mutilation.

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 1, 2008, 2:11:36 AM5/1/08
to

"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> wrote

> Nothing about "Children have the same rights as adults, and therefore the
> same right to prostitute themselves as adults."

I guess you missed the part where the Libertarian Party Platform claims
that children always have
the right to leave their parents and acquire the standing as an independent
adult.


"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> wrote


> Nothing about "Children have the same rights as adults, and therefore the
> same right to prostitute themselves as adults."

I guess you refused to read that part.

So I take it that since you hold that children don't have the same rights
as adults, that the state decides what rights they do and do not have.

Or do you hold that the parents decide what rights their children have?

In either case, what right does a child have to refuse being used as a
prostitute should the parents or state decide that they have no such right
of refusal?

You Filthy Statist you.

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 1, 2008, 2:16:07 AM5/1/08
to

"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> wrote

> Ahh. He's a one of them Wide Stance Toe-Tappers!

Sorry KKKonservative Patriot, I don't hang out in Airport bathrooms,
hanging around the toilet stalls looking to get buggered in the toilet by
random gay men and boys, as you KKKonservative hero's have been found to do.

You thinking of joining the Libertairan Pedo Party Patriot?

Your filth belongs there.


V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 1, 2008, 2:18:58 AM5/1/08
to

"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> wrote

> The most common overt aspect of pedophilia is an intense interest in
> children. There is no typical pedophile. Pedophiles may be young or old,
> male or female, although the great majority are males.

And most belong to the Libertarian party.

From the Libertarian Party Platform.

We also support the repeal of all laws establishing any category of
crimes applicable to children for which adults would not be similarly
vulnerable, such as curfew, smoking, and alcoholic beverage laws, and
other status offenses. Similarly, we favor the repeal of "stubborn
child" laws and laws establishing the category of "persons in need of
supervision." We call for an end to the practice in many states of
jailing children not accused of any crime. We seek the repeal of all


"children's codes" or statutes which abridge due process protections

for young people. We further favor the abolition of the juvenile
court system, so that juveniles will be held fully responsible for
their crimes.


** Translation
** Since Adult prostitution is protected commerce in Libertopia, so too must
Child Prostitituon be legal in Libertopia...


From the Libertairian Party Platform...


Whenever parents or other guardians are unable or unwilling to care
for their children, those guardians have the right to seek other
persons who are willing to assume guardianship, and children have the
right to seek other guardians who place a higher value on their lives.
Accordingly, we oppose all laws that impede these processes, notably
those restricting private adoption services or those forcing children
to remain in the custody of their parents against their will.


** Translation
** In Libertopia when a child is promised greater weath and freedom from a
Child Prostitution Pimp, Neither Parents or Government have any authority
over the transfer of parental rights to the Pimp.


From the Libertairian Party Platform...


Children should always have the right to establish their maturity by


assuming administration and protection of their own rights, ending

dependency upon their parents or other guardians and assuming all the
responsibilities of adulthood.


** Translation
** In Libertopia, when 8 year old sally ran away from home she started to
fuck old men for a living.


V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 1, 2008, 2:23:23 AM5/1/08
to

"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote

> This guy is a clown, who is probably driven by an underlying urge
> just dying to get out and do the soft-shoe in a performance for
> one hapless soul who just happens to be occupied in the adjacent
> public toilet stall.
>
> There is no substantiation to what he claims about the LP.

From the Libertarian Party Platform.

We also support the repeal of all laws establishing any category of
crimes applicable to children for which adults would not be similarly
vulnerable, such as curfew, smoking, and alcoholic beverage laws, and
other status offenses. Similarly, we favor the repeal of "stubborn
child" laws and laws establishing the category of "persons in need of

supervision." We call for an end to the practice in many states of
jailing children not accused of any crime. We seek the repeal of all


"children's codes" or statutes which abridge due process protections

for young people. We further favor the abolition of the juvenile
court system, so that juveniles will be held fully responsible for
their crimes.


** Translation
** Since Adult prostitution is protected commerce in Libertopia, so too must
Child Prostitituon be legal in Libertopia...


From the Libertairian Party Platform...


Whenever parents or other guardians are unable or unwilling to care
for their children, those guardians have the right to seek other
persons who are willing to assume guardianship, and children have the
right to seek other guardians who place a higher value on their lives.
Accordingly, we oppose all laws that impede these processes, notably
those restricting private adoption services or those forcing children
to remain in the custody of their parents against their will.


** Translation
** In Libertopia when a child is promised greater weath and freedom from a
Child Prostitution Pimp, Neither Parents or Government have any authority
over the transfer of parental rights to the Pimp.


From the Libertairian Party Platform...


Children should always have the right to establish their maturity by


assuming administration and protection of their own rights, ending

dependency upon their parents or other guardians and assuming all the
responsibilities of adulthood.


** Translation
** In Libertopia, when 8 year old sally ran away from home she asserted her
responsibilities as an adult by getting herself a pimp and legally fucking

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 1, 2008, 2:32:56 AM5/1/08
to

"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote

> You understood the main drift of what I was trying to convey to
> you. You may not understand the inherent differences between
> pedophilia (sexual relations with pre-adolescents) and sexual
> relations with post-pubescent minors, and the difference is a big
> one,

Tranalation: The Libertarian implies that if she bleeds, she's fair game.
Other Libertarians prefer them younger.


"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote


> Pedophilia is preponderately not motivated as a method to seek sexual
> gratification.

From the oxford Textbook of Psychopathology
"Pedophelia: This diagnosis is used to describe adults for whom
prepubescent children are the focus of erotic attraction and interest."

MMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNN

> It is instead a twisted drive to dominate a child, and the gender of the
> victim, as well
> as sexual satisfaction is not the underlying motivations
> compelling the act.

MMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNN

PseuDoeCyAnts

unread,
May 2, 2008, 7:14:54 AM5/2/08
to
on Wed 30 Apr 2008 02:51:41p
"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> posted
in news:4818e9ef$0$20161$4c36...@roadrunner.com:

> "PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns9A903E8F9795Or...@198.186.190.163...
>> on Tue 29 Apr 2008 03:42:16p
>> "Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.com> posted
>> in news:4817a44a$0$3394$4c36...@roadrunner.com:


Here's a link I was pointed to today.

American Psychologist - February­March 2008
Janis Wolak, David Finkelhor, and Kimberly J. Mitchell,
University of New Hampshire
Michele L. Ybarra, Internet Solutions for Kids, Inc.
Online "Predators" and Their Victims
Myths, Realities, and Implications for Prevention and Treatment
<http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp632111.pdf>

----- ----- ---- --- -- -

Little of this struck me as being astounding, btw.

Also, this is about as far as I care to discuss this topic
presently. Back when World Net Daily was being quoted all over
USENET regarding Mark Foley, was when I pulled and read data about
this topic. It was also where I learned that pedophillia is a
distinctly different perversion from post-adolescent molestation.
This isn't a subject I found enjoyment learning about. Nor do I
have any strong predilection to continue learning about it.
It is almost incomprehensibly alien to me.

The study linked to above did offer something I was unaware of
though, and that is that my concern about charging 18yr olds with
statuatory rape in the U.S. is largely unwarranted.
That is a plus.

Most states exempt peer relationships by requiring
a minimum age for offenders or an age differential
between the parties. Also, many states provide more
severe charges or penalties for crimes involving
younger youths, intoxicated youths, and adults in
positions of trust with youths, such as teachers.

"Online 'Predators' and Their Victims" p 114
(references omitted)

The whole issue is overblown. This paragraph largely sums up the
risk factors associated with the victims:

Youths with histories of sexual or physical abuse, and other
troubled youths, may be particularly vulnerable. Youth
Internet users with histories of offline sexual or physical
abuse appear to be considerably more likely to receive online
aggressive sex- ual solicitations. Abused youths are more at
risk for sexual victimization and exploitation in a variety of
ways. Abuse history could be related to emotional needs or
developmental distortions that make some youths less able to
assess and more responsive to inappropriate sexual advances.
Some such youths may be vulnerable to online sexual advances
because they are looking for attention and affection. In
addition, childhood trauma is associated with adolescent risk
behavior, including risky sexual behavior. Further, the youths
interviewed for the YISS-2 who engaged in high-risk
interactive behavior had high rates of a variety of offline
problems, including rule-breaking behavior, depres- sion, and
social interaction problems at the clinical or borderline
level as measured by the Child Behavior Check- list. So, the
youths most at risk may exhibit a wide range of problems. For
some, prior abuse may trigger risky sexual behavior that
directly invites online sexual advances. But delinquency,
depression, and social interaction problems unrelated to abuse
also may increase vulnerability.

"Online 'Predators' and Their Victims" p 114
(references omitted)

Also;
youths who send personal information (e.g., name,
telephone number, pictures) to unknown people or
talk online to such people about sex are more likely
to receive aggressive sexual solicitations.

p 114

This is not to be confused with the simple posting
of personal information on the web:

Social networking sites such as MySpace
do not appear to have increased the risk
of victimization by online molesters.

p 117

The correlation is found in the use of private methods
of communication, not social networking sites.
The homosexual angle is overstated:

Although girls constitute a higher proportion of victims than
boys, boys who identify as gay or who are questioning their
sexual orientations may be another population particularly
susceptible to online victimization. Boys constitute 25% of
victims in Internet-initiated sex crimes, and virtually all of
their offenders are male.

p 118

Consider also, that there is still a significant portion of the US
population who hold different standards based upon the gender of
the victim, and the sexual orientation of the perpetrator. Many
do not refer to a boy 15-18 years old having sexual encounters
with an older women as statutory rape or molestation. Instead,
they call it "getting lucky". When you were 17, if a cute 30
woman had wanted to screw you repeatedly, would you have told your
parents and friends about the relationship? I certainly would not
have, and would also not have considered myself abused.
Gender/Sexual Orientatation have a great effect on the perception
of acceptable behaviors here. Additionally, even when an
adolescent male victim told friends about it, there would likely
be peer pressure to not report it. I firmly believe that almost
all non-coercive instances of molestation where a woman is the
perpetrator and a male is the victim go unreported, although the
frequency of females perpetrators is still much smaller than male
perpetrators.

The theft of liberty,
even when rationalised "For the Children",
is still an illegitimate act of tyranny.

No True Friend of Liberty
ever claimed it came cheap and easy.
It's just a far far better thing
than the alternatives.

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 3, 2008, 5:06:45 AM5/3/08
to

"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote

> The theft of liberty, even when rationalised "For the Children",
> is still an illegitimate act of tyranny.

And that's why Libertarians feel that laws prohibiting Child prostitution
and Child Molestation are a form of tyranny.


Patriot Games

unread,
May 3, 2008, 1:36:43 PM5/3/08
to

So why do YOU feel that way?

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 3, 2008, 5:05:41 PM5/3/08
to
"PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseu...@labb.port5.com> wrote
>>> The theft of liberty, even when rationalised "For the Children",
>>> is still an illegitimate act of tyranny.

"V-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
>> And that's why Libertarians feel that laws prohibiting Child
>> prostitution
>>and Child Molestation are a form of tyranny.


"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.Com> wrote


> So why do YOU feel that way?

Why do so many Libertarians feel it is their right to molest children?


Michael Price

unread,
May 4, 2008, 12:24:08 AM5/4/08
to
On Apr 29, 4:26 pm, "V-for-Vendicar"
<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> wm.bu...@gmail.com wm.bu...@gmail.com

Of course none of these people seem to be libertarians but don't let
the facts get in the way of a good story.

Michael Price

unread,
May 4, 2008, 12:26:39 AM5/4/08
to
On May 4, 7:05 am, "V-for-Vendicar"
<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> "PseuDoeCyAnts" <pseud...@labb.port5.com> wrote

>
> >>> The theft of liberty, even when rationalised "For the Children",
> >>> is still an illegitimate act of tyranny.
> "V-for-Vendicar" <Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> >>  And that's why Libertarians feel that laws prohibiting Child
> >> prostitution
> >>and Child Molestation are a form of tyranny.
>
> "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.Com> wrote

>
> > So why do YOU feel that way?
>
>   Why do so many Libertarians feel it is their right to molest children?

They don't, why do you? After all the "protection" of the State
seems to be
the most common molestation children are subject to. Who wants to bet
more of those FLDS kids are molested in state "protection" than were
when they were in the care of religious nutjobs?

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 4, 2008, 2:44:04 AM5/4/08
to

wm.bu...@gmail.com wm.bu...@gmail.com

> this is evidence consensual pedophilia is ok
>
> The Rind Report, by 2 Temple University psychology professors.
>
> The book, Harmful to Minors: The Dangers of Protecting Children from
> Sex, by journalist Judith Levine.
>
> The book, Love Against Hate, by psychiatrist Karl Levine, M.D.
>
> The Kinsey Report
>
> The Gay Report
>
> The work of anthropologist Gilbert Herdt on the sambia people.
>
> Your own common sense
>
> Stop persecuting innocent people over a superstition.
>
> IF YOU AGREE, COPY AND SEND THIS MESSAGE AROUND.


"Michael Price" <nini...@yahoo.com> wrote


> Of course none of these people seem to be libertarians but don't let
> the facts get in the way of a good story.

Why did your Libertarian brother feel the need to post it?

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 4, 2008, 2:50:36 AM5/4/08
to

> Why do so many Libertarians feel it is their right to molest children?


"Michael Price" <nini...@yahoo.com> wrote


> They don't, why do you?

I see. So the part of the Libertarian platform where it says that
children have the right to assert their rights as adults, leave their
parents and prostitute themselves is just a coincidence then.

Lets take these things one at a time.

Is prostitution protected legal commerce in Libertopia? Yes or No?


Michael Price

unread,
May 4, 2008, 6:30:25 AM5/4/08
to
On May 4, 4:50 pm, "V-for-Vendicar"

<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> > Why do so many Libertarians feel it is their right to molest children?
>
> "Michael Price" <nini_...@yahoo.com> wrote

>
> >  They don't, why do you?
>
>   I see.

No you don't. In fact you snip so nobody else can.


"After all the "protection" of the State seems to be
the most common molestation children are subject to. "

Why do you approve of this form of molestation?

>  So the part of the Libertarian platform where it says that
> children have the right to assert their rights as adults, leave their
> parents and prostitute themselves is just a coincidence then.
>

You feel to be confused. That is about the rights of "children" not
libertarians.

>   Lets take these things one at a time.
>
>   Is prostitution protected legal commerce in Libertopia?  Yes or No?

Yep and you have to be a legal adult to engage in it.

Michael Price

unread,
May 4, 2008, 6:34:34 AM5/4/08
to
On May 1, 4:16 pm, "V-for-Vendicar"
<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
> "Patriot Games" <Patr...@America.com> wrote

>
> > Ahh.  He's a one of them Wide Stance Toe-Tappers!
>
>   Sorry KKKonservative Patriot, I don't hang out in Airport bathrooms,
> hanging around the toilet stalls looking to get buggered in the toilet by
> random gay men and boys, as you KKKonservative hero's have been found to do.
>
Strange, you seem obsessed with sex to the extent that people who do
that
are.
Homophobia (and probably latent homosexuality) noted.

Patriot Games

unread,
May 4, 2008, 11:16:38 AM5/4/08
to

You DUCKED the question.

So why do YOU "feel that laws prohibiting Child prostitution and Child
Molestation are a form of tyranny"?

Poetic Justice

unread,
May 4, 2008, 1:21:43 PM5/4/08
to

I wasn't born with a Libertarian birthmark on my forehead either.

I would only call myself that to *help you understand* my general
ideology. I'm not a member of any party either.


Organizing libertarians, is like herding cats.

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 4, 2008, 2:50:52 PM5/4/08
to

"Poetic Justice" <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-Dog.com> wrote

> I would only call myself that to *help you understand* my general
> ideology. I'm not a member of any party either.

I'm happy to see that you really don't support the Child Molester
(Libertairian) party.

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 4, 2008, 3:40:55 PM5/4/08
to

"Michael Price" <nini...@yahoo.com> wrote

> Strange, you seem obsessed with sex to the extent that people who do
> that are. Homophobia (and probably latent homosexuality) noted.

Strange that you seem to want to change the subject in away from the
Libertairan Pedo Party in any and every way you can imagine.

Simple question. True or false. Prostitution is a form of legal,
protected commerce under Libertarian Ideology.

* Nambla fact file *

The North American Man/Boy Love Association is a civil rights/ political


organization based on strict Libertarian principles. We support non
coercive, CONSENSUAL intergenerational relationships and help educate
society about the true nature of such relationships.

We were founded in Boston in 1978 and currently have more than one
thousand members worldwide.

NAMBLA activities include speaking to university & community groups,
appearing on television and radio, conducting public forums, and holding
an annual NAMBLA conference.

NAMBLA publishes the "NAMBLA Bulletin" which is sent by first class mail
to our members. (It includes news, feature articles, letters, book
reviews, short stories, etc.) We also publish a literary Journal, books
and other material (all of which are strictly legal).

We also have a publications list which includes over 100 titles of books
(fiction and non-fiction) and periodicals which are available for sale.

We march in Gay & Lesbian Pride Day parades in Boston, New York and San
Francisco. And are involved in other gay & lesbian activities here and
abroad.

Our membership includes people of all ages, genders, and sexual
orientations. (The youngest member of our Bulletin Collective was 11
years old when he began writing a feature column for our publication.)

Although NAMBLA members hold diverse political views, as a group we take
a pro liberty stance on the rights of the individual, focusing on youth
liberation and empowerment.

NAMBLA does not provide referrals or assistance for people seeking
sexual contacts, nor do we engage in activities that violate the law. We
unequivocally condemn all coercive acts, sexual or otherwise, and we
seek to overturn all regulation, expecially those restricting
non-coercive social condut.

If you are interested in receiving a sample copy of our Bulletin,
information regarding membership or our publications list please write
to the address below.

A list of recommended readings, quotes about intergenerational
relationship and NAMBLA by prominent people in the movement, and a short
annotated list of research in the area are available via email upon
request.

Yours in Liberation, Ron Radow

From Libertynet: Libertarian news for a free America.


V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 4, 2008, 3:43:32 PM5/4/08
to

"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.Com> wrote
> You DUCKED the question.

Because I presumed it was directed at the Libertarian members of this
thread.


"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.Com> wrote


> So why do YOU "feel that laws prohibiting Child prostitution and Child
> Molestation are a form of tyranny"?

Simple answer. I don't feel that way. But Libertarians do.


Pedophelia: The Libertarian perspective
---------------------------------------

STATEMENT:

A sexual relationship between an adult and a child is, generally, *not*
abusive in itself.

ARGUMENT:

1. ANTI-PEDOPHILES ARE JUST ANTI-SEX

Saying that a child cannot have non-abusive sexual experiences with an
adult is an argument based on the assumption that sex is in itself a
traumatizing experience, and therefore the child should be spared the
trauma. This is just the last shred of the old "sex = evil" Christian
dogma.

(aside...)

This same assumption was the basis for all the hysteria - which was hype
two or three years ago especially in the U.S. and Canada - regarding
"molestation". Ant-sex crusaders have gone as far as asserting that
unless a male human being had *positive proof* that the female h.b. he
was having sex with was consenting, it was rape. And that positive proof
had to be displayed in court. Which reversed the original - and equally
unjust - tradition by which you had to physically *prove* rape before
taking legal action against the perpetrator.

Now obviously, since there is hardly ever such solid proof, in courts
this all became just a matter of proving that the accuser/defender was
actually a less respectable person than the other, a fact which suited
perfectly well the very "respectable" people that make up most of the
right-wing bigots. (...end of aside)

2. SEX IS JUST ONE OF THE FACTS OF LIFE

Adults are the main source of information for children. They are the
ones who must teach them what is right and what is wrong, and who make
them experience many - if not all - aspects of life. One of these
aspects is sex.

Now of course there are aspects of life that are better learnt about at
an early age, and some that aren't. For example, many children would
have been happy not to learn about being caught in a war, until at least
they were old enough to fight in it - or against it.

One may argue that sex is also best learned at an age when one can cope
with all the strong physical and spiritual sensations it involves.
Granted. But so are many other aspects of life, that instead are taught
children from a very early age.

3. SEX IS NO WORSE THAN RELIGION

When you teach your child about religion, do you think he/she has enough
mental and spiritual power to understand the implications of the
existence of an all-powerful supreme being (apart from his/her own
father, of course)?

Specific religions also may have traumatizing effects on children, such
as Catholicism (the canonization of martyrdom has left many victims I
know personally) or Islam, not to count all the weird sects that abound
on the globe.

4. ALL EDUCATION IS COERCIVE

The fact is, whenever an adult teaches something to a child, he/she is
actually *imposing* his view on the child. And the more passionate and
strong this teaching is, the more "trauma" - that is, permanent
imprinting - will remain on that child.

It's called "education". It's called "shaping a child". It's what has
been happening for ages. Adults impose their views on children. This
mechanism is the basis for culture, for national identity, for
everything. Humans *need* this.

So why should sex be different? It also involves an adult "teaching"
something to a child, "imposing" something to a child by stating the
adult's own view. Children - just like adults - don't like being coerced
to do something that does not please them. In other cases, it's called
"whimpering". In the case of sex, it's called "resisting abuse". But
it's exactly the same thing.

5. RAPE IS WRONG - WELL, ALMOST

Now, I'm not speaking in favor of rape. Rape is a physical coercion, a
violent attack on somebody's physical integrity. Just like parents
brutally beating up their children. I'm not endorsing it. Like all
violence, it is wrong.

A good point might be that "rape is a sexual act consumed with an
unwilling participant", and that therefore sex with an (initially)
unwilling child is automatically to be considered as rape.

However, bear in mind that the respect of one's "willingness", in human
culture, is not due to children, and that happens exactly because
otherwise it would be impossible to educate them. If you needed your
child's permission to go visit old, boring, cranky Aunt Nora, you'd
never visit her. You don't ask for permission. You just go and bring you
little Robin along. And if your little boy whines and whimpers, you tell
him that if he doesn't behave he won't get his ice-cream - in the best
of cases, that is.

6. CHILDREN ARE PEOPLE TOO

The Libertarian platform holds that all people, including children are
to be free from the tyranny of coercion. It follows that all people
must be free to decide their fate. This principle is absolute. No
restrictions are made or need be made on the basis of intellectual
capacity and by logical extension age. Children must be free to decide
their own fate. Anything less is slavery.

Nature provides us with a mechanism for avoiding error. Those who make
errors perish. So it is in nature, so it must be in life.


7. CONCLUSION

So really, is it so wrong to talk a child into having a sexual
relationship with you? It's no worse than bringing a child to a
religious service, or let him/her watch violent movies, or witness the
bitter divorce of their parents. It may be a bit weird for the child to
learn things he/she is not really well prepared to learn, but that's
all.

From Libertynet: Libertarian news for a free tomorrow.

V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 4, 2008, 3:44:12 PM5/4/08
to

"Michael Price" <nini...@yahoo.com> wrote

> You feel to be confused. That is about the rights of "children" not
> libertarians.

Patriot Games

unread,
May 4, 2008, 5:06:26 PM5/4/08
to
On Sun, 4 May 2008 15:43:32 -0400, "V-for-Vendicar"
<Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
>Libertynet

No URL = Presumed LIE.


V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 4, 2008, 6:35:13 PM5/4/08
to

"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.Com> wrote

> No URL = Presumed LIE.

As everyone knows. All truth has a URL.

MMMMMMMMMMOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOONNNNNNNNNN


Patriot Games

unread,
May 5, 2008, 9:38:08 AM5/5/08
to
On Sun, 4 May 2008 18:35:13 -0400, "V-for-Vendicar"
<Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
>"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.Com> wrote
>> No URL = Presumed LIE.
> As everyone knows. All truth has a URL.

If you can't CITE your material YOU MUST BE LYING.

Now we know.

Thanks for PROVING YOU'RE A LIAR!

hanson

unread,
May 5, 2008, 11:36:42 AM5/5/08
to
Gauche & loud communist, US-expatriate & pauper Scott Nudds
with his red pants on fire... ahahahaha... HAHAHAHA... ahahaha...
aka "VD-for-Vendicar" <Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> aka
VD Scotty who bragged that he **never** drove and much less
owned an automobile cranked himself grievously and then he
Scuttled his Nutts and as usual fantasized in
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.global-warming/msg/db3095b2b5d5d48d
and swore that HE, VD-Scotty, was indeed a Libertarian....
>
>
VD Scotty aka "VD-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote in
message
news:yloTj.71448$dA2....@read2.cgocable.net...
>
"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.Com> wrote
So why do YOU, Nudds, "feel that laws prohibiting Child

prostitution and Child Molestation are a form of tyranny"?
>
VD-Scotty wrote:
Simple answer. I don't feel that way. But Libertarians do.
>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.impeach.bush/msg/920496e1657a9c92
::VD-Scotty wrote: I'm Libertarian.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.activism.children/msg/808fe1a32a9b...
::VD-Scotty wrote: Those who love liberty vote Libertarian.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.america/msg/e3bcc30e30f20b41
::VD-Scotty wrote: I am a Libertarian.
>
>
VD-Scotty wrote:
Pedophelia: The Libertarian perspective

STATEMENT:
A sexual relationship between an adult and a child is, generally,
*not* abusive in itself.
>
VD-Scotty aka "VD-for-Vendicar" <Jus...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote in
message
news:5joTj.71441$dA2....@read2.cgocable.net...

* Nambla fact file *
The North American Man/Boy Love Association is a civil rights/
political organization based on strict Libertarian principles.
We support non coercive, CONSENSUAL intergenerational
relationships and help educate society about the true nature of
such relationships.
>
>
and VD-Scotty said:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.impeach.bush/msg/920496e1657a9c92
::VD-Scotty wrote: I'm Libertarian.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.activism.children/msg/808fe1a32a9b...
::VD-Scotty wrote: Those who love liberty vote Libertarian.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.america/msg/e3bcc30e30f20b41
::VD-Scotty wrote: I am a Libertarian.


V-for-Vendicar

unread,
May 6, 2008, 12:01:46 AM5/6/08
to

"Patriot Games" <Pat...@America.Com> wrote

> If you can't CITE your material YOU MUST BE LYING.

Can you provide a citation for that claim? Liar.


Michael Price

unread,
May 6, 2008, 1:52:30 AM5/6/08
to
On May 4, 4:44 pm, "V-for-Vendicar"

<Just...@ExecuteTheBushTraitor.com> wrote:
>  wm.bu...@gmail.com wm.bu...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> > this is evidence consensual pedophilia is ok
>
> > The Rind Report, by 2 Temple University psychology professors.
>
> > The book, Harmful to Minors: The Dangers of Protecting Children from
> > Sex, by journalist Judith Levine.
>
> > The book, Love Against Hate, by psychiatrist Karl Levine, M.D.
>
> > The Kinsey Report
>
> > The Gay Report
>
> > The work of anthropologist Gilbert Herdt on the sambia people.
>
> > Your own common sense
>
> > Stop persecuting innocent people over a superstition.
>
> > IF YOU AGREE, COPY AND SEND THIS MESSAGE AROUND.
>
> "Michael Price" <nini_...@yahoo.com> wrote

>
> >  Of course none of these people seem to be libertarians but don't let
> > the facts get in the way of a good story.
>
>   Why did your Libertarian brother feel the need to post it?

Ask him.

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