"The Order of the Rose and Cross"
Our Order teaches that true Christianity is not merely a question
of belief, but also one of racial karma. After the invasion of the
kingdom of Israel, the Assyrians scattered the indigenous
population. They resettled in the Caucasus Mountains, and later
drifted into Europe. We believe that the Anglo-Saxon and
associated Indo-European cultures are the spiritual and literal
descendants of these "lost ten tribes of Israel," representing
God's chosen people as mentioned in the Old Testament.
We believe in the inevitability of the end of the world and in
the Second Coming of Christ. We believe that the coming
"end times events" are part of a cleansing process that is
needed before Christ's kingdom can be firmly established
on earth. During this time, Satan and his allies will attempt
to destroy God's chosen people using any means available.
The result will be a violent and bloody millennial struggle,
in which Christians shall battle Satan and the forces of evil.
Many will perish, and some will be forced to wear the Mark
of the Beast merely to participate in business and commerce.
After the final battle is ended, however, Christ's kingdom shall
be established on earth, and Christians be recognized as the
one and true Israel.
The principal aim of "The Order of the Rose and Cross" is to
preserve and propagate pure, esoteric Christianity, the true
essence of the Western Mystery Tradition, by means of study,
debate and meditation within a consecrated space, in order to
prepare Christians for the coming struggle. We believe,
moreover, that the Rosicrucian movement has been from its
inception an inherently Christian movement. Therefore only
Christians may join the Order of the Rose and Cross. We believe,
moreover, that Rosicrucians have a special role to play in the end
times struggle, and that Christians shall gather around the symbols
of our Order, the Rose and Cross, in their struggle against Satan
and his allies.
Many members of our Order were once members of other
Rosicrucian orders whose leaders had lost their way. The
founders of the Order of the Rose and Cross had all been senior
and long-standing members of the Sociatas Rosicruciana in Anglia
(S.R.I.A.), a masonic Rosicrucian body that professed to be
Christian in nature and membership, but which had gradually
slipped from maintaining its Christian identity as well as a wholly
Christian membership. The slippage away from spiritual integrity
gained momentum, and when the head of that body drifted away
from Christianity, they said 'Enough is enough' and left, but more
in sorrow than in anger. They did not, however, leave Rosicrucianism
behind them, and creating a new Order was a natural step - as was
the inevitable reviling and ill-will from some of their erstwhile
colleagues. But the breach was only with the misguided leaders of
that Rosicrucian body, not with its wider membership, who are
welcome among us as pilgrims on the Rosicrucian path.
We invite fellow Christians to join us on the Rosucrucian path of
true esoteric Christianity. We invite fellow Christians, Freemasons,
and Rosicrucians to join us in raising Christianity to its manifest
destiny in the final struggle to establish God's kingdom on earth,
and in restoring the Rosicrucian tradition to its true Christian
identity.
For more information, please visit our website at:
http://www.orderroseandcross.org/
GRAND OFFICERS:
Supreme Magus: M.W.Fra. Michael Buckley, IX°
Senior Deputy Supreme Magus: R.W.Fra. John Goodrum, IX°
Junior Deputy Supreme Magus: R.W.Fra. Chris Oversby, IX°
Grand Chaplain: R.W.Fra. Alan Armstrong, IX°
Grand Exponent: R.W.Fra. Charles Chic Cicero, IX°
Grand Secretary: R.W.Fra. Alan Blackstone, IX°
Grand Treasurer: R.W.Fra. John Goodrum, IX°
Grand Archivist: R.W.Fra. Robert Gilbert, IX°
Grand Tutor: R.W.Fra. Robert Gilbert, IX°
Grand Webmaster: R.W.Fra. Thomas Clarke, IX°
Grand Preceptor: R.W.Fra. Thomas Clarke, IX°
Grand 1st Ancient: R.W.Fra. Dave Winefield, IX°
Grand 2nd Ancient: R.W.Sor. Sandra Tabatha Cicero, VIII°
Grand 3rd Ancient: V.W.Fra. Nick Farrell, VI°
Grand 4th Ancient: V.W.Fra. Ross Agnew, VII°
Grand Guardian: V.W.Fra. David Williams, VI°
>We, the Fratres et Sorores of the true Rose and Cross herewith
>proclaim the birth of a new order, so that Christianity may yet
>fulfill its manifest destiny and the Rosicrucian tradition may be
>restored to its original Christian purity:
>
>"The Order of the Rose and Cross"
>
>Our Order teaches that true Christianity is not merely a question
>of belief, but also one of racial karma. After the invasion of the
> kingdom of Israel, the Assyrians scattered the indigenous
>population. They resettled in the Caucasus Mountains, and later
>drifted into Europe. We believe that the Anglo-Saxon and
>associated Indo-European cultures are the spiritual and literal
>descendants of these "lost ten tribes of Israel," representing
>God's chosen people as mentioned in the Old Testament.
>
Great, more false Lineage bullshit. "We're really the Lost Tribes of
Israel, not some other group of people who have their own History,
Gods and so forth! Pay no attention to the DNA behind the curtain!!"
>We believe in the inevitability of the end of the world
Most likely in a couple of billion years, barring a large impact of
some kind (which hasn't happened in the last billion or so). "But
we're a pessimistic death worshiping lot who want to see it happen to
this world because we hate it so much!"
>Many members of our Order were once members of other
>Rosicrucian orders whose leaders had lost their way.
Death to the People's Liberation Front of Judea. The Peoples Front
for the Liberation of Judea is the TRUE cause.
It seems based on the SRIA - who I don't think would be very happy. In
which country is this new R+C org based? Presumably not England.
You're making the mistake of thinking this is a sincere post. It's not.
It's just more of the same bullshit that these losers keep posting about one
another. And here you are, falling for it.
Occultists... bah.
You're making the mistake of thinking that I take it seriously.
Terminal skeptics... bah.
Three years ago, Andrew Stephenson was the Supreme Magus of SRIA.
R.W.Fra. Michael Buckley, IX was the Senior Substitute Magus of SRIA.
Simultaneously, Andrew Stephenson (an occult associate of Desmond
Bourke) was also the head of the revived Waite Order, or the
Fellowship of the Rosy Cross, which conducted sessions in a Loft
Temple located in his London abode; additionally, quarterly meetings
of another Masonic group, the August Order of Light Garuda Temple no.2
were held at the same location. (For more information on the
revived Waite Order, please see Christopher MacIntosh's book on the
Rosicrucians.) John Paternoster (a past poster in alt.freemasonry)
was onHigh Council, but held a somewhat lower postion down the totem
pole. There were those who then thought that at some point SRIA would
declare itself non-masonic, begin initiating women, and invade the
territory of the U.S.A. by opening a College on the American side of
the border near Niagra Falls. This never occured.
Instead, when Andrew Stephenson left office as Supreme Magus, he
wasnot succeeded by Michael Buckley as Supreme Magus, but instead,
John Paternoster was elected to office as Supreme Magus.
John Paternoster, a Master Mason in good standing under UGLE, is also
the Warden (or Chief) of the Fraternity of the Inner Light, a society
founded by Dion Fortune. It is thought that his arrival in the
latter office represented the accession of the Christian faction
within the SIL (Society of the Inner Light): Gareth Knight, a well
known
Christian occultist (and co-founder of SOL, or Servants of the Light)
returns to SIL with the accession of the Christian faction.
Secondly, Michael Buckley does NOT become Supreme Magus of SRIA:
instead, he acts with others to formulate a non-masonic schismatic
breakaway of SRIA, and leveling charges of "departure from
Christianity" against SRIA and its chiefs. May I say that it is
clear from the evidence presented here shows that this charge against
John Paternoster has no foundation whatsoever: the SRIA maintains its
trinitarian Christian requirement, following SRIA traditions just as
it always has. Additionally, SIL which John Paternoster presently
heads, also shows a marked Christian affiliation.
I would expect that this new group also plans to form Colleges within
the U.S.A. as well as England, thus invading the territory of SRICF,
a plan which might have been undertaken by SRIA itself had Buckley
succeeded in becoming Supreme Magus ! ! !
The Anglo-Israeli theology of the new organization is a curious and
interesting twist on the esoteric movements coming out of UK of late,
this one directly inspired by internal SRIA politics.
Best regards,
Sar Draconis
On Jun 2, 10:52 pm, Sar Draconis <p...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Jun 2, 9:47 pm, Sar Draconis <p...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > Masonic readers may be familiar with the SRIA - the Societas
> > Rosicruciana in Anglia, or the Masonic Rosicrucian Society in England,
> > (which interestingly, has active colleges in Canada.)
> > A recently appearing website has announced the pending formation of
> > a schismatic non-masonic breakaway of SRIA, admitting ladies and other
> > non-masons as well as men!!! :
> >http://www.orderroseandcross.org/
> > This new society is scheduled to "blast off" on June 30, so schedule
> > your
> > cosmic blinkers accordingly.
> > The founding grand officers are set forth in one of the tabs on the
> > website:
> > > ORC Officers
> > > Supreme Magus
> > > M.W.Fra. Michael Buckley, IX
> > > Senior Deputy Supreme Magus
> > > R.W.Fra. John Goodrum, IX
> > > Junior Deputy Supreme Magus
> > > R.W.Fra. Chris Oversby, IX
> > > Grand Chaplain
> > > R.W.Fra. Alan Armstrong, IX
> > > Grand Exponent
> > > R.W.Fra. Chic Cicero, IX
> > > Grand Secretary
> > > R.W.Fra. Alan Blackstone, IX
> > > Grand Treasurer
> > > R.W.Fra. John Goodrum, IX
> > > Grand Archivist
> > > R.W.Fra. Robert Gilbert, IX
> > > Grand Tutor
> > > R.W.Fra. Robert Gilbert, IX
> > > Grand Webmaster
> > > R.W.Fra. Thomas Clarke, IX
> > > Grand Preceptor
> > > R.W.Fra. Thomas Clarke, IX
> > > Grand 1st Ancient
> > > R.W.Fra. Dave Winefield, IX
> > > Grand 2nd Ancient
> > > R.W.Sor. Sandra Tabatha Cicero, VIII
> > > Grand 3rd Ancient
> > > V.W.Fra. Nick Farrell, VI
> > > Grand 4th Ancient
> > > V.W.Fra. Ross Agnew, VII
> > > Grand Guardian
> > > V.W.Fra. David Williams, VI
> > Leafing through a two or three year old directory of SRIA, I was able
> > to identify a few of the names:
> > RW Michael N. Buckley, IX degree WAS:
> > Senior Substitute Magus (i.e., next in line to the "Supreme Chief.")
> > John Goodrum,
> > WAS
> > Chief Adept, Western Counties and North Wales
> > Chris J. Overby
> > WAS
> > Chief Adept, North Western Counties
> > RA Gilbert
> > WAS
> > once Archivist of the High Council (if I recall correctly)
> > Thus, the founding impetus of this new org clearly comes from SRIA,
> > and presumably the authorities of the IX degree of SRIA (not to
> > mention
> > the authority of a past senior substitute magus!)
> > So what is the founding motif? It appears that they allege that the
> > SRIA has become less Christian than they desire!!! :
> >http://www.orderroseandcross.org/wordpress/about/:
> > "The founders of the Order had all been senior and long-standing
> > members of a masonic Rosicrucian body that professed to be Christian
> > in nature and membership, but which had gradually slipped from
> > maintaining either Christian standards or a wholly Christian
> > membership. The slippage away from spiritual integrity gained
> > momentum, and when the head of that body drifted away from
> > Christianity, they said 'Enough is enough' and left, but more in
> > sorrow than in anger."
> > But interestingly enough, one of the founding officers of this new
> > would-be
> > Rosicrucian Society:
> > - - - Nick Farrell - - -
> > is a self-professed Jew (i.e., not Christian), and who amazingly
> > enough, has threatened acts of violence and mayhem online against
> > yours truly in times past, but which I will forgo quoting for the
> > present.
> > Your roving reporter,
> > Sar Draconis-
> It should be pointed out that prior to the present announcement, the
> SRICF was the only masonic rosicrucian society in the world that once
> gave rise to a schismatic non-masonic breakaway, and one associated
> with the names of Plummer and Purcell. The American breakaway took
> place over 100 years ago. This raises the question: why has it taken
> so many years for a parallel development to occur from the Anglia side
> of the Atlantic?
> Now regarding the cited allegations against the SRIA contained in the
> website announcing the new group - - - I would take them with a grain
> of salt if I were you. The SRICF does maintain a christian
> requirement, and so does SRIA, to the best of my knowledge.
> Sar Draconis
"I meant to do that." -- PeeWee Herman
"On 30 June 2007 the Order of the Rose and Cross will be formally
consecrated as a sovereign, independent Rosicrucian Order, dedicated
to the promotion of Rosicrucianism in its traditional form.
But, you will ask, why do we need yet another 'Rosicrucian' Order?
Don't we have enough of them, busy peddling ersatz occultism, or
providing gong-hunters with yet another jewel to collect? And you are
quite right to ask, for there are indeed many self-styled
'Rosicrucian' bodies, but all too few that are truly Rosicrucian in
their aims and practices.
So what is different about the Order of the Rose and Cross? Far more
than you might expect.
First, our principal aim is to preserve and propagate Christian
esotericism - the true essence of the Western Mystery Tradition - by
means of study, debate and meditation within a consecrated space.
Next, we are truly inclusive, putting up no artificial barriers to
membership. We admit both men and women of the Christian faith, and do
not insist upon any prior membership of any other masonic or esoteric
body - nor do we restrict our members from joining, or remaining as
members of any other Rosicrucian body: tolerance, not intolerance is
our watchword.
We also offer the opportunity of following a progressive ceremonial
path for those who wish to take it up, but this is neither obligatory
nor exclusive.
Still the question remains, why did the Order of the Rose and Cross
come into being at this particular time? The answer is simple.
The founders of the Order had all been senior and long-standing
members of a masonic Rosicrucian body that professed to be Christian
in nature and membership, but which had gradually slipped from
maintaining either Christian standards or a wholly Christian
membership. The slippage away from spiritual integrity gained
momentum, and when the head of that body drifted away from
Christianity, they said 'Enough is enough' and left, but more in
sorrow than in anger.
They did not, however, leave Rosicrucianism behind them, and creating
a new Order was a natural step - as was the inevitable reviling and
ill-will from some of their erstwhile colleagues. But the breach was
only with the misguided leaders of that Rosicrucian body, not with its
wider membership, who are welcome among us as pilgrims on the
Rosicrucian path.
So what lies ahead? We are a new Order with a rewarding future before
us. We have no intention of involving ourselves in internecine
squabbles with self-aggrandising pseudo-Rosicrucians, for this would
only deflect us from our true path. Our Order is composed of
dedicated, honourable and non-judgmental Rosicrucians, true to their
faith, and committed to the search for spiritual wisdom. Every
Christian esotericist who follows the Rosicrucian path is welcome to
join us in our quest.
If you wish to know more about the Order of the Rose and Cross, please
contact the Grand Secretary at GrandSe...@orderroseandcross.org
from whom copies of our Aims & Objects, Statutes and an application
form for membership can be obtained."
Now you have really made me curious. Does your order
have racial overtones? Do you admit Jews in your order?
How about Muslims? If not, why not? Do you admit blacks?
How many blacks are there in your order at this time?
To me, the colors on your website as well as on your
rose and cross symbol give me a sense of unease and
seem somehow evocative of a Nazi swastika and flag.
Is this intentional? If so, why?
There's more to this than meets the eye, magus777...
Behold...
Orderoftheroseandcross posted this faux manifesto from NNTP-Posting-Host
IP 80.77.80.57:
On May 19 and 20, fairplaygd posted 4 messages from the identical IP
address:
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a51264dd96041a4/bfee43ae173922d5#bfee43ae173922d5)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/ff17292c818ae50f/fa00e6960bb4637c#fa00e6960bb4637c)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a51264dd96041a4/8a664ca021ef1cc3#8a664ca021ef1cc3)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a51264dd96041a4/cb190566ca05622a#cb190566ca05622a)
On June 3, susanwhite200789 posted a message from the very same IP address:
This basically means that fairplaygd, susanwhite200789 and
orderoftheroseandcross are all the same person.
Furthermore, on June 3, fairplaygd posted a message from 70.1.40.203:
This resolves to a Sprint PCS cluster with a net range of 70.1.1.1 -
70.14.255.255. However, only subnets 70.1.x.x and 70.7.xx are hosted in
Beverly Hills, CA.
Moving over to Griffin's HOGD Yahoo group...on June 3, hogdaomoderator
posted this message from X-Yahoo-Post-IP 70.1.23.202:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/12941)
and this message on May 30 from 70.7.135.164:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/12842)
Furthermore, luxexseptentrionis posted this message on May 30 from
70.7.238.92:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/12840)
and this message on April 15 from 70.7.203.153:
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/message/11568)
And the cherry on top: Griffin's "Golden Dawn Publishing", which
published his "Ritual Magic Manual" in 1999, is based out of Beverly
Hills, CA.
Final note: NNTP-Posting-Host and X-Yahoo-Post-IP headers are assigned
by the server receiving the message and therefore cannot be spoofed by
users.
Judge for yourself.
On May 28 and June 1, fairplaygd posted 5 messages from the very same IP
address:
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/314a1df14f3341d0/2b57e2f1357022af#2b57e2f1357022af)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/9378d3d5c750d155/5ac07ed863fede4f#5ac07ed863fede4f)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/9378d3d5c750d155/f793dfe34090721e#f793dfe34090721e)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/9378d3d5c750d155/3735cd61308b6a10#3735cd61308b6a10)
(http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/314a1df14f3341d0/2628a6f8f871e21c#2628a6f8f871e21c)
Now we have marabelings, fairplaygd, susanwhite200789 and
orderoftheroseandcross all the same person.
See my earlier message for further connections.
Judge for yourself.
David, cupcake . . . I've told you once and I'll tell you again.
Soci-E-tas has an 'e'.
It isn't Soci-A-tas. You need to learn to spell the word and avoid
such obvious giveaways.
This is a public service announcement posted in the sincere intention
that GH Frater L.E.S. will learn to troll more effectively in future.
The real ORC manifesto is here:
http://www.orderroseandcross.org/wordpress/about/
And, Robert, darling . . . you need to start hanging out with a better
class of friend.
Your soi-disant Imperator is just too fishy for words :
http://www.rosicrucians.org/salon/fishy/sardines_imperator.jpg
Jean
On Jun 5, 8:00 am, inlvxveritas <inlvxveri...@charter.net> wrote:
> magus...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Mr Word
> > You are a renown esoteric researcher and yet you failed to spot the
> > above post was a forgery. If you compare the above post with what is
> > written at that Order's site you will see that the 'strange racial
> > overtones' have been added by the original poster with the express aim
> > of devaluing the Order of the Rosy Cross and its membership.
> > Surely as a respected member of the esoteric community and the leader
> > of a Rosicrucian Order yourself, you should be decrying such posts.
>
> There's more to this than meets the eye, magus777...
>
> Behold...
>
> Orderoftheroseandcross posted this faux manifesto from NNTP-Posting-Host
> IP 80.77.80.57:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/a34af2...)
>
> On May 19 and 20, fairplaygd posted 4 messages from the identical IP
> address:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a5126...)
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/ff1729...)
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a5126...)
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a5126...)
>
> On June 3, susanwhite200789 posted a message from the very same IP address:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/314a1d...)
>
> This basically means that fairplaygd, susanwhite200789 and
> orderoftheroseandcross are all the same person.
>
> Furthermore, on June 3, fairplaygd posted a message from 70.1.40.203:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/314a1d...)
>
> This resolves to a Sprint PCS cluster with a net range of 70.1.1.1 -
> 70.14.255.255. However, only subnets 70.1.x.x and 70.7.xx are hosted in
> Beverly Hills, CA.
>
> Moving over to Griffin's HOGD Yahoo group...on June 3, hogdaomoderator
> posted this message from X-Yahoo-Post-IP 70.1.23.202:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> and this message on May 30 from 70.7.135.164:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> Furthermore, luxexseptentrionis posted this message on May 30 from
> 70.7.238.92:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> and this message on April 15 from 70.7.203.153:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> And the cherry on top: Griffin's "Golden Dawn Publishing", which
> published his "Ritual Magic Manual" in 1999, is based out of Beverly
> Hills, CA.
>
> Final note: NNTP-Posting-Host and X-Yahoo-Post-IP headers are assigned
> by the server receiving the message and therefore cannot be spoofed by
> users.
>
> Judge for yourself.
> -
> We, the Fratres et Sorores of the true Rose and Cross herewith
> proclaim the birth of a new order, so that Christianity may yet
> fulfill its manifest destiny and the Rosicrucian tradition may be
> restored to its original Christian purity:
>
> "The Order of the Rose and Cross"
>
> Our Order teaches that true Christianity is not merely a question of
> belief, but also one of racial karma. After the invasion of the
> kingdom of Israel, the Assyrians scattered the indigenous
> population. They resettled in the Caucasus Mountains, and later
> drifted into Europe. We believe that the Anglo-Saxon and associated
> Indo-European cultures are the spiritual and literal descendants of
> these "lost ten tribes of Israel," representing God's chosen people
> as mentioned in the Old Testament.
Jeezus Gawd...
No, Pre-Jesus God.
Heh.
H. Frater L.V.S. (Trevor Walker)
Hierophant.
Temple of Ma'at, No. 19.
London, U.K.
Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®,
outer order of the Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega®.
On 5 Jun, 08:00, inlvxveritas <inlvxveri...@charter.net> wrote:
> magus...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Mr Word
> > You are a renown esoteric researcher and yet you failed to spot the
> > above post was a forgery. If you compare the above post with what is
> > written at that Order's site you will see that the 'strange racial
> > overtones' have been added by the original poster with the express aim
> > of devaluing the Order of the Rosy Cross and its membership.
> > Surely as a respected member of the esoteric community and the leader
> > of a Rosicrucian Order yourself, you should be decrying such posts.
>
> There's more to this than meets the eye, magus777...
>
> Behold...
>
> Orderoftheroseandcross posted this faux manifesto from NNTP-Posting-Host
> IP 80.77.80.57:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/a34af2...)
>
> On May 19 and 20, fairplaygd posted 4 messages from the identical IP
> address:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a5126...)
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/ff1729...)
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a5126...)
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/4a5126...)
>
> On June 3, susanwhite200789 posted a message from the very same IP address:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/314a1d...)
>
> This basically means that fairplaygd, susanwhite200789 and
> orderoftheroseandcross are all the same person.
>
> Furthermore, on June 3, fairplaygd posted a message from 70.1.40.203:
>
> (http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/browse_thread/thread/314a1d...)
>
> This resolves to a Sprint PCS cluster with a net range of 70.1.1.1 -
> 70.14.255.255. However, only subnets 70.1.x.x and 70.7.xx are hosted in
> Beverly Hills, CA.
>
> Moving over to Griffin's HOGD Yahoo group...on June 3, hogdaomoderator
> posted this message from X-Yahoo-Post-IP 70.1.23.202:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> and this message on May 30 from 70.7.135.164:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> Furthermore, luxexseptentrionis posted this message on May 30 from
> 70.7.238.92:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
>
> and this message on April 15 from 70.7.203.153:
>
> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hermetic-Order-of-the-Golden-Dawn/messa...)
> > contact the Grand Secretary at GrandSecret...@orderroseandcross.org
> > from whom copies of our Aims & Objects, Statutes and an application
> > form for membership can be obtained."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I sympathize deeply with the misrepresentation of the views which was
made by that imposter posting as you. My views here have also often
been misquoted and misrepresented in this forum.
Indeed I immediately spotted (and commented upon) the curious nature
of the admixture of anglo-israeli theology in connection with a
rosicrucian style group, as stated in passing in my post.
But it is a myopic if not faux jugement you are making, is it not?
This was only a passing observation, whereas the true bulk of my post
dealt with issues that emerge from the website publication itself,
i.e., the fact of the schism, who is involved, and whom are you
actually attacking. I have identified them all correctly, have I
not? Or are you claiming that the website is itself a forgery?
> Surely as a respected member of the esoteric community and the leader
> of a Rosicrucian Order yourself, you should be decrying such posts.
I do decry such posts, and I sympathize with your plight. Indeed, the
bizarre religious aspect being attributed was not the real subject of
my
post, but instead issues raised by the fact of the schism itself, and
identifying the individuals that you are attacking and defaming
publically, and actually defending them against you attacks as lacking
any real foundation or merit.
> For those interested the website reports the following:
>
> "On 30 June 2007 the Order of the Rose and Cross will be formally
> consecrated as a sovereign, independent Rosicrucian Order, dedicated
> to the promotion of Rosicrucianism in its traditional form.
>
> But, you will ask, why do we need yet another 'Rosicrucian' Order?
Actually I don't ask that question. It is a free world and there will
always be a plethora of groups, including new groups on the horizon.
Groups have there period of birth, growth, and death, just as do
individuals. There will always be need for new groups of all kinds.
> Don't we have enough of them, busy peddling ersatz occultism, or
> providing gong-hunters with yet another jewel to collect? And you are
> quite right to ask, for there are indeed many self-styled
> 'Rosicrucian' bodies, but all too few that are truly Rosicrucian in
> their aims and practices.
Actually, I don't ask that either. See above.
>
> So what is different about the Order of the Rose and Cross? Far more
> than you might expect.
> First, our principal aim is to preserve and propagate Christian
> esotericism - the true essence of the Western Mystery Tradition - by
> means of study, debate and meditation within a consecrated space.
> Next, we are truly inclusive, putting up no artificial barriers to
> membership. We admit both men and women of the Christian faith, and do
> not insist upon any prior membership of any other masonic or esoteric
> body - nor do we restrict our members from joining, or remaining as
> members of any other Rosicrucian body: tolerance, not intolerance is
> our watchword.
> We also offer the opportunity of following a progressive ceremonial
> path for those who wish to take it up, but this is neither obligatory
> nor exclusive.
>
> Still the question remains, why did the Order of the Rose and Cross
> come into being at this particular time? The answer is simple.
>
> The founders of the Order had all been senior and long-standing
> members of a masonic Rosicrucian body that professed to be Christian
> in nature and membership, but which had gradually slipped from
> maintaining either Christian standards or a wholly Christian
> membership.
It is this last statement which I question and strongly disagree with.
>The slippage away from spiritual integrity gained
> momentum, and when the head of that body drifted away from
> Christianity, they said 'Enough is enough' and left, but more in
> sorrow than in anger.
Now I have already identified the individual about whom you are making
these statements, and I have already expressed my view that such
statements as you are making about him are clearly unfounded.
>
> They did not, however, leave Rosicrucianism behind them, and creating
> a new Order was a natural step - as was the inevitable reviling and
> ill-will from some of their erstwhile colleagues.
Why do you need to bring up garbage like this about rosicrucians you
have known and worked with in order to start
a "Rosicrucian" new beginning? And why should I need to believe your
garbage anyway?
How do I know the website itself isn't a forgery too? Would real
rosicrucians publish garbage like that?
> But the breach was
> only with the misguided leaders of that Rosicrucian body, not with its
> wider membership, who are welcome among us as pilgrims on the
> Rosicrucian path.
There is no reason to believe that the people you are dissing are
really misguided. Again, what makes you think you need to post
garbage like this about people, and why do you think that doing so
somehow makes you more "rosicrucian"?
>
> So what lies ahead? We are a new Order with a rewarding future before
> us. We have no intention of involving ourselves in internecine
> squabbles with self-aggrandising pseudo-Rosicrucians,
See above comment. Then you have made a VERY poor start.
> for this would
> only deflect us from our true path.
Then consider yourself deflected. Your words, not mine.
> Our Order is composed of
> dedicated, honourable and non-judgmental Rosicrucians, true to their
> faith, and committed to the search for spiritual wisdom. Every
> Christian esotericist who follows the Rosicrucian path is welcome to
> join us in our quest.
>
> If you wish to know more about the Order of the Rose and Cross, please
> contact the Grand Secretary at GrandSecret...@orderroseandcross.org
> from whom copies of our Aims & Objects, Statutes and an application
> form for membership can be obtained."
Thankyou for the offer. I'm over here in California, U.S.A. Do you
intend to start a U.S.A. branch? If not, why would I want to join
some group, far, far away, too far for me to attend regularly?
Sar Draconis
P.S. In conclusion, it is highly dubious that the website isn't as
much a fabrication as the post from orderroseandcr...@yahoo etc. May
I say that I hope that indeed this will turn out to be the case,
because very frankly I am disgusted by your remarks unjustifiably
attacking those good fratres.
.
>
> David, cupcake . . . I've told you once and I'll tell you again.
>
(snip)
>
> And, Robert, darling . . . you need to start hanging out with a better
> class of friend.
>
(snip)
Thanks.
Teletourgos is a woman.
Sar Draconis
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.magick/msg/b3acf7b8a2f1c87b
or is it the Order of the Rose Cross website
with the Nazi colors and Christian swastika at:
http://www.orderroseandcross.org/
that is the hoax? Or are they both a hoax?
What, because your Imperator posted a false version of their Manifesto
that raised the question ?
As opposed to the real one, where that question doesn't arise at
all ?
The only question that still remains is how long you choose to dwell
in fantasy land, I'll wager.
And, Christians aren't a race. Not last time I checked.
Jean
I take it the above is longhand for 'Whoops, we've been caught out' ?
The further comment that can be made about the chain of IP addresses
is that they prove HOGD/AO members are using multiple identities on
one PC.
I am sorry, but it is not really possible to falsify this data.
And what are some of the details of your temple.
Where, for instance, does it meet ? And when ?
Any events to raise the profile of the Order, that sort of thing ?
Jean
Or a gay man with a "bitchy feminine" persona.
cat yronwode
1) All of the picture links at the "rosicrucian images"
page are broken as of June 6th, 2007
2) Here is the list of officers, as accessed at
http://www.orderroseandcross.org/wordpress/leadership/
on June 6th, 2007
Order of the Rose and Cross
Search:
Home
About the ORC
Contact Us
Links
Members
Officers
Papers
Rosicrucian Images [all images broken, June 6, 2007]
Statutes
Officers
Supreme Magus
M.W.Fra. Michael Buckley, IX¬*
Senior Deputy Supreme Magus
R.W.Fra. John Goodrum, IX¬*
Junior Deputy Supreme Magus
R.W.Fra. Chris Oversby, IX¬*
Grand Chaplain
R.W.Fra. Alan Armstrong, IX¬*
Grand Exponent
R.W.Fra. Charles Chic Cicero, IX¬*
Grand Secretary
R.W.Fra. Alan Blackstone, IX¬*
Grand Treasurer
R.W.Fra. John Goodrum, IX¬*
Grand Archivist
R.W.Fra. Robert Gilbert, IX¬*
Grand Tutor
R.W.Fra. Robert Gilbert, IX¬*
Grand Webmaster
R.W.Fra. Thomas Clarke, IX¬*
Grand Preceptor
R.W.Fra. Thomas Clarke, IX¬*
Grand 1st Ancient
R.W.Fra. Dave Winefield, IX¬*
Grand 2nd Ancient
R.W.Sor. Sandra Tabatha Cicero, VIII¬*
Grand 3rd Ancient
V.W.Fra. Nick Farrell, VI¬*
Grand 4th Ancient
V.W.Fra. Ross Agnew, VII¬*
Grand Guardian
V.W.Fra. David Williams, VI¬*
Just in case anyone had any remaining doubt left, Teletourgos new
trolling
activity proves conclusively that she is a pro-Cicero and anti-
Griffin
misrepresentation and defamation troll, and consequently that her
statements
can not be trusted in any matters having even remotely to do with
Cicero,
Griffin, Babwahsing, their orders, or any derivative, affiliated, or
allied orders.
On the other hand, Cat Yronwode has already pointed our, Ms.
Teletourgos
is reasonably reliable in regard to pre-1960 occult history.
Well who ever he or she is, I think Marabel has made a few good
points. I would also like to point out that the second article in the
articles section has the heading "Aryans." So we have
1) An exclusively Christian club, no pagans, Jews, Muslim, Buddhists;
and other undesirables.
2) The emphasis on the Aryan race myth as important subject matter. It
is very doubtful that nonwhites would be accepted as members. The
constant repetition of "Western Tradition" is a give away, meaning
European, preferable of Anglo-Saxon origin. The historical information
also de-emphasizes Jewish, Asian, Middle Eastern and North African
contributions to the Western Esoteric Tradition. Even Dion Fortune who
first made this term fashionable always alluded to these sources,
especially Egypt.
3) The Nazi color scheme and Swastika like black cross; Is this
intentional, unconscious or just coincidental? How could anyone fail
to notice?
4) It is open to only Christians of the Trinitarian Faith. The
Trinitarian doctrine was set forth by the Nicaean Council in 325 C.E.,
it should exclude Gnostics, Copts, the Syrian Church as well as some
more modern denominations. In other words mostly people of European
abstraction. This means that the version of Rosicrucianism set forth
here is non-Hermetic, non-esoteric and religious in nature. This is
all very fine but remember that Christian Rosenkreutz traveled to the
East and received his tuition from the wise Arabs of Damkar.
Aren't they the same colours used by Martinist Orders, as well as the
colours of Alchemy:
Black Nigredo
White Albedo
Red Rubedo
I don't see the black cross as a swastika. Looks very much like a Calvary
cross to me. Would have been nice if it was a golden one. Would fit in
with the Golden Rossy Cross motif of RC. I wonder if the ORC could offer
a symbolic explanation. I would hazard a guess, this is the Cross of
Mourning, Death and suffering, while the 5 petalled rose red rose fits
well with YhShVh.
Josef
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 12:40:59 -0700, fr_regulus wrote:
> ...
Everything posted in any thread about affiliations sucks ass.
Yes, that means every single nubish idiot that chooses to flaunt hir idiocy
in front of all of you.
We can all make lists.
I am hoping that by mentioning lists, the idiots who keep on posting
bullshit, will take notice.
(They, being a bunch of fuckwads anyway)
A number of small, extremely conservative Fundamentalist
Christian denominations have accepted Anglo-Israelism,
and grafted it to racist, sexist, anti-communist and homophobic
beliefs. They view the Jewish people as descendants of Satan.
Anglo-Israelism (a.k.a. British-Israelism) is theological belief
that the Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Scandinavian, Germanic
and associated cultures are the racial descendents of the
tribes of Israel. Thus, by extension, Americans and Canadians,
are composed of the descendents of the ancient Israelites of
the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament).
These notions appear to be central in the "Manifesto" of the
"Order of the Rose and Cross." There presently exists a rumor,
however, that both the Manifesto and the Website of the Order
of the Rose and Cross are part of an elaborate hoax. The website
states that the OR+C admits only Trinitarian Christians (this means
no Muslims, Jews, or even Greek or Orthodox Christians). This in
itself might not necessarily indicate right wing Fundamentalism.
However, the website also states that the OR+C broke away from
another "Christians only" Rosicrucian group in Britain because
the former was not "Christian" enough. This strongly speaks for
a extremely radical Christian Fundamentalism in the "Order of
the Rose and Cross," that is, if the whole thing is not in actuality
an elaborate hoax.
The OR+C website may be viewed at:
http://www.orderroseandcross.org/
Source code of that article lists 6 0
obj<</CreationDate(D:20070515200529+01'00')/Author(Michael N. Buckley)
> So we have
>
> 1) An exclusively Christian club, no pagans, Jews, Muslim, Buddhists;
> and other undesirables.
Actually, i read the article and it specifically dealt with the late
19th and early 20th century occultist myth of an Aryan race and the fact
that late 19th and early 20th century occultism "drew heavily on the
Kaballah" even as "European occultists refused to acknowledge the Jewish
origin of the Kaballah." The Brothers Grimm are also indicted for their
role in promoting the Aryan myth. The article then debunks, at length,
the mistaken notion that the Aryans were the originators of Sanskrit
language, classing them as "immigrants" to India.
There is nothing anti-Jewish there, per se. In fact, compared to your
average late 19th and early 20th century occultist, like Crowley, the
author, Michael N. Buckley, is downright PRO-Jewish!
> 2) The emphasis on the Aryan race myth as important subject matter. It
> is very doubtful that nonwhites would be accepted as members.
Nothing at the site indicates this in any way.
In light of your bald-faced attempt to deceive readers about the content
of a site that anyone can access and read for themselves, i award you
the "Stupidest Anti-Cicero Troll of the Decade Medal with Purple Cluster-Fucks.
cat yronwode
getting bored by the sheer predictibility of these anti-Cicero goons
Why a non Christian would seek to become a Rosicrucian is beyond me;
given the symbolism utilized by all versions of the various
organizations using variations on the Rosicrucian name.
Still, i cannot find any place at The Order of the Rose and Cross site
where it forbids anyone of another faith from joining. At least not in
print.
The site does not say that it is open "only" to Christians of the
Trinitarian Faith. It says that *IF THEY ARE ALREADY MEMBERS* then those
who hold other beliefs -- either other Christian beliefs or other
religious beliefs -- should "go their way in peace." So obviously they
could have become members!
In other words, you have been busted for misrepresentation again.
cat yronwode
"No one shall be admitted into the Order unless he or she is of high
moral character and believes in the fundamental doctrines of the
Trinitarian Christian Faith."
You are proved wrong. What award does that entitle you to?
In Peace
Regulus.
On Jun 7, 6:18 am, catherine yronwode <c...@herb-magic.com> wrote:
I'm not in OR+C and unlikely to be, but as I said yesterday, if the
frauds are making so much noise about it, maybe the OR+C is onto
something.
Jean
My mind boggles at what passes for logical deduction in yours.
Jean
> How can we best preserve the Western Hermetic Tradition
> for the future? I truly believe that initiatic Orders analogous to
> the Golden Dawn are still needed and that their role is crucial in
> preserving our specifically western esoteric spirituality. We must
> also recognise that the Tradition which represents that spirituality
> faces real threats, both from the growth of religious indifference
> and from the determined efforts of its spiritual enemies to capitalise
> on such indifference, and to undermine the tradition by perverting
> its ethos and substituting darker and avowedly anti-Christian goals.
> If we are true to our Rosicrucian principles then we must recognise
> and strive against those threats."
1. Do we not see the Golden Dawn perverted here into
extremist Christian Fundamentalism?
2. Who are these mysterious "spiritual enemies?"
3. What does the OR+C mean by striving against the "threats
posed by spiritual enemies striving to undermine the "Tradition"
by perverting its ethos and substituting darker and avowedly
anti-Christian goals?"
4. Do we not see here the same scapegoating mentality so prevalent
in the radical fundamentalism of Christian Identity and British-
Israelite
groups who routinely use such flowery language to sell their veiled
racism? Christian Identity believers see themselves as
God's agents battling what they see as the forces of evil: Jews and
Muslims.
>
> GRAND OFFICERS:
>
> Supreme Magus: M.W.Fra. Michael Buckley, IX°
>
> Senior Deputy Supreme Magus: R.W.Fra. John Goodrum, IX°
>
> Junior Deputy Supreme Magus: R.W.Fra. Chris Oversby, IX°
>
> Grand Chaplain: R.W.Fra. Alan Armstrong, IX°
>
> Grand Exponent: R.W.Fra. Charles Chic Cicero, IX°
>
> Grand Secretary: R.W.Fra. Alan Blackstone, IX°
>
> Grand Treasurer: R.W.Fra. John Goodrum, IX°
>
> Grand Archivist: R.W.Fra. Robert Gilbert, IX°
>
> Grand Tutor: R.W.Fra. Robert Gilbert, IX°
>
> Grand Webmaster: R.W.Fra. Thomas Clarke, IX°
>
> Grand Preceptor: R.W.Fra. Thomas Clarke, IX°
>
> Grand 1st Ancient: R.W.Fra. Dave Winefield, IX°
>
> Grand 2nd Ancient: R.W.Sor. Sandra Tabatha Cicero, VIII°
>
> Grand 3rd Ancient: V.W.Fra. Nick Farrell, VI°
>
> Grand 4th Ancient: V.W.Fra. Ross Agnew, VII°
>
> Grand Guardian: V.W.Fra. David Williams, VI°
I am not sure they have been removed, but the site seems to be
password protected now.
On another tangent, I just joined the Griffin order group and looked
at the archived messages, and there is no mention of any London Temple
- by anyone.
Trevor Walker, styled 'Frater L.T.I' until recently, is a moderator
of
the group, and fond of writing long, turgid, grovelling missives
about
his Imperator and attacking other orders - which almost no-one
responds to.
(Given this is his own forum I found that kind of alarming.)
Notably, he makes no mention of ANY temples or order activities in
London - whatsoever.
My guess is our very honoured Hierophant is a one-man-band and
that his dominion extends only as far as the tracksuit pants he
stands
up in.
Jean
When H. Frater L.V.S. (Trevor Walker) answered the following, "Thank
you for providing an occasion for our order to set the record straight
in this important regard. The Rosicrucian Order of Alpha et Omega® is
not a religious organization. Unlike certain other orders, religion,
race, creed, colour, and sexual orientation simply are not factors in
acceptance for initiation nor for grade advancement in our outer
order, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn®. The same holds true for
the Second or Third orders of the Alpha et Omega® as well. Among its
membership, the A+O® presently has active members from various
religious faiths as well as of various sexual orientations. These
things do not even play a role in selection for leadership positions
within the Alpha et Omega. Indeed, although he prefers to personally
stay out of usenet discussions, one present Hierophant of our order is
gay. This fact is well known and well accepted by the members of the
Temple over which he presides, as well as by the leadership of our
order." She should have realized that her game of trying to paint the
HOGD/A+O as an intolerant oppressive if not a facist organization was
up. If she was misinformed she should have realized that her views
were topsy-turvy. But instead she went to the opposite extreme and
began defending an organization that was to all obvious appearances an
exclusive club for right wing fundamentalists. In a fit of violent
behaviour she even verbally attacked me for mentioning that its
membership was exclusive for Trinitarian Christians, a fact that the
order itself does not deny and openly proclaims. This is what is
called tunnel vision.
Regulus
On Jun 7, 6:10 am, catherine yronwode <c...@herb-magic.com> wrote:
Hmm. I just searched Maria Babwahsingh's, SRIA, website, at
http://www.sria.org/
and I found no mention of any local groups activities at all in
recent years whatsoever. We must therefore conclude that
the order itself does not exist and that its website is a mere
empty facade. I invite the anonymous troll, Teletourgos, to
prove that the SIRA even exists other than its pretentious
website.
-Mara
> How can we best preserve the Western Hermetic Tradition
> for the future? I truly believe that initiatic Orders analogous to
> the Golden Dawn are still needed and that their role is crucial in
> preserving our specifically western esoteric spirituality. We must
> also recognise that the Tradition which represents that spirituality
faces real threats, both from the growth of religious indifference
> and from the determined efforts of its spiritual enemies to capitalise
> on such indifference, and to undermine the tradition by perverting
> its ethos and substituting darker and avowedly anti-Christian goals.
> If we are true to our Rosicrucian principles then we must recognise
> and strive against those threats."
It is obvious, the R.A. Gilbert is here espousing a segregationist,
"Christans only" view of Rosicrucianism. This naturally raises several
important questions:
1. Do we see the Golden Dawn perverted here into
extreme Christian Fundamentalism or is Mr. Gilbert
merely advocating a segregationist view of Rosicrucianism?
2. Do Chic and Tabatha Cicero share Mr. Gilbert's segregationist
views regarding the Rosicrucian tradition?
3. Is the Rosicrucian Second Order (R.R.etA.C.) of Chic and Tabatha
Cicero's HOGD segregationist?
4. Does the Cicero R.R.et A.C. admit Jews and Muslims?
5. If so, then why do Chic and Tabatha Cicero belong to a
segregationist Rosicrucian order?
Moreover:
6. Who are these mysterious "spiritual enemies" to whom
R.A. Gilbert refers in his
7. What does the OR+C mean by striving against the "threats
posed by spiritual enemies striving to undermine the "Tradition"
by perverting its ethos and substituting darker and avowedly
anti-Christian goals?"
8. Do we not see here the same scapegoating mentality so prevalent
in the radical fundamentalism of Christian Identity and British-
Israelite
groups who routinely use such flowery language to sell their veiled
racism? The white Christian Identity believers see themselves as
God's agents battling what they see as the forces of evil: Jews and
Muslims.
9. Do Chic and Tabatha Cicero share R.A. Gilberst's apparently
racist views regarding the Rosicrucian tradition?
10. Finally, in the wake of public exposure, why is the OR+C
attempting to prevent further publich scrutiny, by password
protecting embarrassing areas of its website?
The names of Chic and Tabatha Cicero recently appeared
prominently on a list of the "Grand Officers" of a new Order
calling itself the "Order of the Rose and Cross.&qu