The Ammo Clip
Walt
was becoming illegible.
Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the rifle at the time
of discovery, period."
Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
discovery of the rifle?
muc...@gmail.com
You're a cruel man, Walt.
Walt
Some call me an asshole.......... I'm not offended....To me an
asshole is someone who doesn't go along with screwball ideas just so
he'll be liked and included in the "club". The "asshole" will speak
his mind, and let the chips fall where they may.
tomnln
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:1d26c976-df3b-4200...@p58g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On 21 Oct, 11:48, much...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On 21 Okt., 18:43, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I started a new thread because we had the old one so scribbled up it
>> > was becoming illegible.
>>
>> > Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the rifle at the time
>>
>> > of discovery, period."
>>
>> > Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
>> > discovery of the rifle?
>>
>> You're a cruel man, Walt.
Wally wrote;
> Some call me an asshole.......... I'm not offended....To me an
> asshole is someone who doesn't go along with screwball ideas just so
> he'll be liked and included in the "club". The "asshole" will speak
> his mind, and let the chips fall where they may.
I write;
Your own Stupid Bastard Unsubstantiated claims show you to be an "Asshole"
Wally>>>
You never proved that 133-a had "Dual Sling Mounts".
When are you gonna Prove that LHO worked for RFK???
You never proved that Walker called Germany.
You never proved Oswald ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved Mike Paine gave the DOD a copy of 133-a on 11/22/63.
You never proved the wallet was found "INSIDE" the owner's car.
You never proved Michael Paine had same model rifle.
You never proved Walker believed LHO shot at him.
You never proved that Capt O A Jones said LHO shot AT Walker.
You never proved that the bullet recovered from Walker shooting was copper
jacketed.
You never proved LHO received a 40 minch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHO shot at Walker.
You never proved that LHO ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHOI altered the chin in CE-133-a.
You never proved your claim that a 6.5 was fired from a "sabot".
You never proved your claim that the CIA was gonna "rescue Oswald".
You never proved your claim that the DPD showed Weitzman a Mauser on
11/22/63.
You're a Warren Commission Shill! ! !
THAT's why you RUN from your own words.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1d26c976-df3b-4200...@p58g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...> On 21 Oct, 11:48, much...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On 21 Okt., 18:43, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> >> > I started a new thread because we had the old one so scribbled up it
> >> > was becoming illegible.
>
> >> > Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the rifle at the time
>
> >> > of discovery, period."
>
> >> > Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
> >> > discovery of the rifle?
>
> >> You're a cruel man, Walt.
>
> Wally wrote;
>
> > Some call me an asshole.......... I'm not offended....To me an
> > asshole is someone who doesn't go along with screwball ideas just so
> > he'll be liked and included in the "club". The "asshole" will speak
> > his mind, and let the chips fall where they may.
>
> I write;
>
Your own Stupid Bastard Unsubstantiated claims show you to be an
"Asshole"
It's a pity that yer shriveled old diseased brain can't comprehend
that I wear the badge with pride.. Thank you
> You never proved that 133-a had "Dual Sling Mounts".
> When are you gonna Prove that LHO worked for RFK???
> You never proved that Walker called Germany.
> You never proved Oswald ordered a 40 inch rifle.
> You never proved Mike Paine gave the DOD a copy of 133-a on 11/22/63.
> You never proved the wallet was found "INSIDE" the owner's car.
> You never proved Michael Paine had same model rifle.
> You never proved Walker believed LHO shot at him.
> You never proved that Capt O A Jones said LHO shot AT Walker.
> You never proved that the bullet recovered from Walker shooting was copper
> jacketed.
> You never proved LHO received a 40 minch rifle.
> You never proved your claim that LHO shot at Walker.
> You never proved that LHO ordered a 40 inch rifle.
> You never proved your claim that LHOI altered the chin in CE-133-a.
> You never proved your claim that a 6.5 was fired from a "sabot".
> You never proved your claim that the CIA was gonna "rescue Oswald".
> You never proved your claim that the DPD showed Weitzman a Mauser on
> 11/22/63.
>
> You're a Warren Commission Shill! ! !
>
> THAT's why you RUN from your own words.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
robcap...@netscape.com
I don't have to prove it, the DPD already DID Walt!!! There is NO
mention of a clip in the crime scence inventory logs, just like the
paper bag. Do you think there was a real paper bag too????
Walt is so flustered he doesn't realize he is the ONE claiming
something the evidence DOESN'T show, that a clip was in the rifle.
Thus, it is up to him to provide something that shows the DPD and
Sheriff deputies were all wrong.
Have fun Walt.
Walt
wrote:
> On Oct 21, 12:43 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > I started a new thread because we had the old one so scribbled up it
> > was becoming illegible.
>
> > Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the rifle at the time
>
> > of discovery, period."
>
> > Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
> > discovery of the rifle?
>
> I don't have to prove it, the DPD already DID Walt!!! There is NO
> mention of a clip in the crime scence inventory logs,
Let's see it this is rational..... The clip was not visible at the
time the rifle was found and yet Rob thinks there should be some kind
of document that says "I did not see any clip, and I'm going to not
put it on an evidence inventory list" so there won't be an inventory
list with the clip listed on it.
Hmmmm..... I wonder why the didn't include an elephant on that
list.....Perhaps it's because didn't see one of them either.
Gil Jesus
was identified as a 6.5 millimeter caliber, Italian-made, bolt-action,
military rifle called a Mannlicher-Carcano, after its two inventors.
It is largely unknown that during WWII, it was one of only two
military-use rifles in the world that fed a cartridge into the chamber
from a clip. The other was the M-1 Garand. The difference between the
two is that the clip on the M-1 Garand ejects when the last round is
fired, while on the Carcano the clip ejects when the last round is
chambered. "In the clip system, the clip remains attached to the
rounds on loading and forms an essential part of the magazine system,
a follower forcing the rounds out of the clip and presenting them in
turn to the bolt for loading."8
According to the Warren Report, when the weapon allegedly used to kill
the President was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
Depository (TSBD), one cartridge remained, and it was in the chamber.
9
Therefore, if operating properly, the rifle had automatically ejected
the clip. The Warren Commission reported, however, that when the rifle
was found, it contained a clip.10
Firearms experts for the HSCA explained the discrepancy. On September
8, 1978, Monty C. Lutz of the Committee's firearms panel, was asked
about this by Pennsylvania Representative Robert W. Edgar.
Mr. Edgar. The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant
Day of the Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime
laboratory for the police department. Shouldn't a clip automatically
fall out once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber?
Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that
the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the
clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening that you see in the
bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this
particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through
it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had
been stripped and fed into the chamber. Because the lips or the edges
of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the
walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that
areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it
will hang up in the box area.11
That explanation seems reasonable enough. But it is not. It is true
that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck
as this one. But once bent, it stays bent. Commission Exhibits (CEs)
574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent
condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed,
Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal
condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12
According to assassination researcher and author J.W. Hughes, who has
tested this deformation over fifty times on each of his seven
Mannlicher-Carcanos, "When deformed, it will not hold the rounds
because the locking ridge is spread too wide to hold the round and the
weapon jams."13
The Warren Commission was apparently silent about whether expert
riflemen from the U.S. Army and FBI had such difficulty firing the
alleged murder weapon in 1964, and whether it was fired with its
alleged clip. Whether or not those marksmen used the original clip,
they were required to use any test clip in the original's apparent
"found" condition, i.e., deformed. Anyone could have tested the clip
by duplicating its required abnormal behavior, and can still. But CBS
News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual
assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967, did not. According to
reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took turns firing
clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They fired a total
of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which resulted in
unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle." Clip problems or not,
all data from those seventeen troubled series was disregarded by CBS
analysts. It was the other series of shots, however, with properly
emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of analysis by CBS, that
should have been disqualified. In the CBS film, clips can be seen
flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14
If a test clip is not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's
alleged feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA
firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since
it did not test the clip under firing conditions. Congressman Edgar
learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about
their firing test:
Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber
and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the
box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then
firing into it, in order to recover the projectile.
Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing with clip -- using the clip, were
you?
Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.
Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?
Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.
Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?
Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to
identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time
firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.15
Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel
Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets
were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests
were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]
cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The
cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected
without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the
cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it
is designed to do."16
Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open up" statement, this
result demands further explanation.
"Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when
heated and can alter its shape. But during the HSCA tests of the
loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE
541 (3), a photograph of the clip stuck in the magazine reproduced on
page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the
rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography
session. Is Lutz suggesting that the clip's sides spring out when cool
and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a
violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle and clip, how
then could the rifle have "contained a clip" when found?
Also, the HSCA's explanation does not explain what happened after the
rifle was found. Over at least the next twenty-four hours, the Dallas
Police Department reported, and left uncorrected, descriptions that
remain a paradox to this day. Early news reports seemed to identify
the murder weapon as anything but a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano. NBC
and WBAP radio identified it as a British Enfield .303. KLIF radio
said it was a 7.65 German Mauser. KRLD radio announced that the rifle
was "presumed to be a .25 caliber high powered Army or Japanese
rifle." Radio station KBOX reported a German Mauser or a Japanese
rifle. Dallas television station WFAA described it as three different
kinds of Mauser: a "German Mauser," a 6.5 "Argentine Mauser" with a
four-power scope, and a 7.65 "Mauser." Dallas NBC-affiliate television
station WBAP's continuous coverage between 12:56 p.m. and 5:26 p.m.
Central Standard Time (C.S.T.) reveals that the "conflicting reports"
of the rifle's make evolved from the first (British .303) to the last
(7.65 Mauser) in a very short time frame between 2:14 and 2:24.17
Despite the fact that the alleged murder weapon that allegedly
belonged to Oswald reportedly was clearly stamped "Made Italy" and
"Cal. 6.5," local authorities and the media seemed to finally agree
that it was a 7.65 German-made Mauser. Had as few as two different
descriptions continued to dominate news reports the rest of the day,
one of them being an Italian, or a clip-fed weapon, an argument could
be made for confusion. But that is not what happened. The supposed
murder weapon was not "called...most everything," as Captain Will
Fritz testified.18
Initial descriptions quickly gave way to a short-lived consensus for a
7.65 German Mauser, not further confusion. Probably due to the earlier
conflicting reports, reporters remained skeptical. But they asked if
it was a Mauser, and were told, tacitly at least, that it was. As
different as these early descriptions seemed from each other and from
the weapon the Warren Commission finally chose, there is one
difference they all have in common. It is the one difference from the
Mannlicher-Carcano they all share. It is the key to the conspiracy.
None of them can use an ammunition clip.
The early critics of the Warren Commission who dealt directly with the
rifle descriptions and clip problems, including Mark Lane, Harold
Weisberg and Sylvia Meagher, missed this particular paradox. Since the
mid-seventies, most of the clip and rifle problems have been
recognized by gun experts and many researchers, including Gary Shaw,
Mary Ferrell, Jack White and George Michael Evica. But the fact that
there is only one other clip system with which the Mannlicher-
Carcano's can be confused (the significance of which is explained
below), and the absolute impossibility of confusing a Mannlicher-
Carcano for any rifle but that one, seem to have been completely
overlooked.
In the case of Meagher, it was a near miss. She was aware of a lack of
direct evidence that a clip was found at the crime scene. The Texas
Department of Public Safety official "Evidence Sheet" lists the
incriminating evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald in detail. The number
of spent shells found at the crime scene even changed from "(2)" to an
obviously distorted "(3)" by the time the Warren Commission published
the list, but no clip was ever accounted for.19
The FBI Laboratory Report from J. Edgar Hoover to Police Chief Jesse
Curry the day after the assassination itemizes and numbers everything
from metal fragments to a belatedly identified rifle. But the clip is
not listed or numbered. It is mentioned only in passing as part of a
group of things without fingerprints.20
Meagher even wrote, referring to testimony about confusion over the
clip, "It is another coincidence, one supposes, that someone has
mistaken a six-shot clip for a clip suitable to a Mauser, just as the
Carcano was taken for a Mauser."21
This unfortunate statement may have ended further questions before
they could be asked. Mausers are loaded from a "charger" (a.k.a.
"stripper clip") which must be discarded after loading. While it is
sometimes called a "clip," a charger has a completely different
function.
Meagher fell for FBI weapons expert Robert Frazier's subtle testimony.
The question asked of Frazier was, "Is there any reason that you can
think of why someone might call that a five-shot clip?" Frazier
answered, "No, sir, unless they were unfamiliar with it. There is an
area of confusion in that a different type of rifle shooting larger
ammunition, such as a 30.06 or a German Mauser rifle, uses five-shot
clips, and the five-shot clip is the common style or size of clip,
whereas this one actually holds six."22
Frazier limited his answer to unfamiliarity with the clip itself. The
full answer reveals the deception. The confusion is over the term, not
the function. How could weapons expert Frazier not know this?
Confusing a charger with a clip is only possible through complete and
total ignorance of the way rifles are loaded. And that irrefutable
fact leads, as the reader will see, to conclusive proof of conspiracy
in the JFK assassination.23
Many questions about other rifles at the crime scene have been raised,
and some of them answered conclusively, by JFK assassination
researchers over the years.24 Oswald and his fellow employees had even
seen a Mauser at the TSBD in the possession of their supervisor, Roy
Truly, just two days before the assassination.25 But had the critics
known about the charger-clip discrepancy, they might have asked, along
with questions about other rifles, slightly different questions: Why
would a description of a superficially similar but non-clip-fed rifle
prevail for at least twenty-four hours (and at most three days) after
a clip-fed rifle became the most important piece of evidence? Was it
because it prevented questions from being asked about ammunition
clips? Why avoid such questions? Was it because no clip was found with
the gun? Did the crime scene investigators replace the clip? Why would
the crime-scene investigators lie and fabricate evidence to hide a
rifle's normal firing condition? Did they confuse the Mannlicher-
Carcano's feeding system with that of the more familiar M-1 Garand,
thinking it needed a clip if a round was in the chamber? Did they
know, therefore, that the rifle was planted? And if they knew that,
did they knowingly help frame Lee Harvey Oswald?
Things might have been very different had Mark Lane known to ask these
questions when he brought the Mauser description to the Commission's
attention on March 4, 1964. This analysis does not exculpate Lee
Harvey Oswald. Nor does it conclusively indict other individuals. But
if this analysis is correct, it does conclusively prove conspiracy.
And it serves to remind us that, in this time of new evidence produced
through technology and file declassification, nothing is wrong with
the old evidence. A hard question we must ask -- and answer for our
children -- is why it took us so long. That delay caused great damage
they will have to undo.
SOURCES
8. Ian V. Hogg, "The Mannlicher Clip System," The Encyclopedia of
Infantry Weapons of World War II (London: Bison Books, 1977, New York:
Thomas Y. Crowell, Inc., 1977).
9. Warren Commission Report (Washington D.C.: U.S. Government Printing
Office, 1964) p. 555; hereafter cited as R 555.
10. R 555.
11. 1 HH 482.
12. 17H (CE 574) 258, (CE 575) 259. Life magazine, November 1983, pp.
16-17.
13. Letter from J.W. Hughes to Walter F. Graf, May 25, 1994.
14. R 193-95. "CBS News Inquiry: `The Warren Commission Report'" (4-
part series produced by Leslie Midgely, narrated by Walter Cronkite)
June 25-28, 1967; official transcript cited in Mark Lane, A Citizen's
Dissent (New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1968) pp. 103, 104,
106-07; hereafter cited as Lane, Dissent 103, 104, 106-07. Anson 143.
CBS rifle test film rebroadcasts: "The 20th Century" (narrated by Mike
Wallace, Arts & Entertainment Cable Network, Nov. 16, 1994, 1 hr.);
"Cronkite Remembers: Television and Politics" (Discovery Channel Cable
Network, Jan. 23, 1997, 30 mins.).
15. 1 HH 483.
16. 7 HH 365.
17. 26 H (CE 3048) 599. Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact
(New York: Bobbs-Merrill, 1967, Vintage Books, 1976, 1992) p. 95;
hereafter cited as Meagher, Accessories 95. Sylvia Meagher, "Treasure-
Hunting in the National Archives," The Third Decade January 1986, p.
2; cited in Sheldon Inkol, "Other Patsies," The Third Decade May 1990,
p. 8. Richard B. Trask, Pictures of the Pain (Danvers, Mass.: Yeoman
Press, 1994) p. 532; hereafter cited as Trask 532. "JFK Assassination:
As It Happened" (Arts & Entertainment Cable Network, Nov. 22, 1988, 6
hrs.) at 1 hr..-14 min. and 1 hr.-24 min.; hereafter cited as As It
Happened 1:14, 1:24.
18. 4H 206.
19. Texas Department of Public Safety Evidence Sheet No. 443-A, and
24H (CE 2003, p. 130), reproduced in J. Gary Shaw and Larry R. Harris,
Cover-Up: The Governmental Conspiracy to Conceal the Facts About the
Public Execution of John Kennedy (Cleburne, Texas: self-published,
1976) pp. 159, 160.
20. 24 H (CE 2003 pp. 131-35) 262-64. FBI file no. PC-78243 BX, Nov.
23, 1963, p. 5; reproduced in Jesse E. Curry, Retired Dallas Police
Chief Jesse Curry Reveals his personal JFK Assassination File (Dallas
Tx.: American Poster and Printing Company, 1969) p. 94; hereafter
cited as Curry 94. Suspiciously, that FBI lab report, a photo of Day
with the rifle in front of the TSBD on p. 54, and a reproduction of a
Klein's Sporting Goods ad on p. 99, are the only references to the
essential ammunition clip in Chief Curry's 133-page book. Nowhere in
his main text does Curry mention the clip.
21. Meagher, Accessories 119.
22. 3H 398. Meagher, Accessories 119.
23. The unmistakable difference between these two methods of loading a
rifle (charger vs. clip) is clearly demonstrated in two adjacent film
segments approximately 1 hr.-30 min. into the 1973 National General
Cinema, Inc. film, Executive Action. When viewing them, keep in mind
that one method is not interchangeable with the other.
MORE:
http://www.jfk-info.com/discus/messages/23/222.html?997724005
robcap...@netscape.com
> On 21 Oct, 14:06, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 21, 12:43 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > I started a new thread because we had the old one so scribbled up it
> > > was becoming illegible.
>
> > > Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the rifle at the time
>
> > > of discovery, period."
>
> > > Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
> > > discovery of the rifle?
>
> > I don't have to prove it, the DPD already DID Walt!!! There is NO
> > mention of a clip in the crime scence inventory logs,
>
> Let's see it this is rational..... The clip was not visible at the
> time the rifle was found and yet Rob thinks there should be some kind
> of document that says "I did not see any clip, and I'm going to not
> put it on an evidence inventory list" so there won't be an inventory
> list with the clip listed on it.
Please Walt, you are sounding as lame as the LNers you claimed NOT to
be for many years. Once the rifle was dusted for prints it was handed
over to the officers to be categorized into the inventory log. NO
mention of a clip appears, in fact, according to Sylvia Meagher (she
spent a ton of time making an index for the delibrately non-indexed 26
volumes) there was NO mention of any clip until the WCR came out in
9/64. NOT ONE mention.
If you think there was then show us this evidence or witness
testimony. While you are it, explain why Lt. Day made a run for it
with the rifle and then locked it up in a safe for 5 hours instead of
processing it right away.
> Hmmmm..... I wonder why the didn't include an elephant on that
> list.....Perhaps it's because didn't see one of them either.
You are sounding more like the LNer you are every post.
Walt
he (Walt) is the ONE claiming something the evidence DOESN'T show,
that a clip was in the rifle.
No No Rob....Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the
rifle at the time of discovery, period."
Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
discovery of the rifle?
Thus, it is up to him to provide something that shows the DPD and
Sheriff deputies were all wrong.
I have to provide something to show that the DPD and the Sheriff's
deputies were all wrong?
What were they wrong about Rob?? They ONLY person who actually
examined thar Mannlicher Carcano. ( Oh excuse mean the 7.65 Mauser)
was Lt JC Day. The only other person that got close to it was Capt.
Fritz, but he didn't examine he rifle that wasn't his job, it was Lt
Day's job to examine the rifle. So nobody else could have filed a
report on clip that they didn't see.
Now that I've put the ball back on your side of the court... Please
proceed to PROVE that there was no clip in the rifle.
YOU made this claim:" the point is there was NO clip with the rifle
at the time of discovery, period."
>
> Have fun Walt.
Walt
wrote:
> On Oct 21, 3:20 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 21 Oct, 14:06, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 21, 12:43 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > > I started a new thread because we had the old one so scribbled up it
> > > > was becoming illegible.
>
> > > > Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the rifle at the time
>
> > > > of discovery, period."
>
> > > > Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
> > > > discovery of the rifle?
>
> > > I don't have to prove it, the DPD already DID Walt!!! There is NO
> > > mention of a clip in the crime scence inventory logs,
>
> > Let's see it this is rational..... The clip was not visible at the
> > time the rifle was found and yet Rob thinks there should be some kind
> > of document that says "I did not see any clip, and I'm going to not
> > put it on an evidence inventory list" so there won't be an inventory
> > list with the clip listed on it.
>
> Please Walt, you are sounding as lame as the LNers you claimed NOT to
> be for many years. Once the rifle was dusted for prints it was handed
> over to the officers to be categorized into the inventory log.
As usual.... You make up stuff.
Lt Day was the ONE and ONLY person to have possession of the rifle
until it was turned over to FBI agent Vince Drain at midnight that
night. Drain took possession of it and was flown on an airforce jet
to FBI headquarters in Washington DC.
NO
> mention of a clip appears, in fact, according to Sylvia Meagher (she
> spent a ton of time making an index for the delibrately non-indexed 26
> volumes) there was NO mention of any clip until the WCR came out in
> 9/64. NOT ONE mention.
I can explain that.... We ABSOLUTELY AND POSITIVELY know that there
was a clip hanging out of the magazine when Day left the TSBD ( You
can't honestly deny that because several different photographers took
photos showing the clip hanging there) BUT Lt Day DID NOT know that
he was about to lose that clip. And he did lose it.....somewhere along
the way. When someone asked what happened to the clip that was shown
in the photos the DPD covered their ass and went and got a replacement
clip.
> If you think there was then show us this evidence or witness
> testimony. While you are it, explain why Lt. Day made a run for it
> with the rifle and then locked it up in a safe for 5 hours instead of
> processing it right away.
>
> > Hmmmm..... I wonder why the didn't include an elephant on that
> > list.....Perhaps it's because didn't see one of them either.
>
> You are sounding more like the LNer you are every post.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
> On 21 Oct, 14:06, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 12:43 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > I started a new thread because we had the old one so scribbled up it
> > > was becoming illegible.
>
> > > Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the rifle at the time
>
> > > of discovery, period."
>
> > > Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
> > > discovery of the rifle?
>
> > I don't have to prove it, the DPD already DID Walt!!! There is NO
> > mention of a clip in the crime scence inventory logs, just like the
> > paper bag. Do you think there was a real paper bag too????
>
> > Walt is so flustered he doesn't realize he is the ONE claiming
> > something the evidence DOESN'T show, that a clip was in the rifle.
> > Thus, it is up to him to provide something that shows the DPD and
> > Sheriff deputies were all wrong.
>
> he (Walt) is the ONE claiming something the evidence DOESN'T show,
> that a clip was in the rifle.
>
> No No Rob....Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the
>
> rifle at the time of discovery, period."
>
> Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
> discovery of the rifle?
Already done with the Alyea film that shows NO clip, the officers and
deputies NEVER mentioned a clip and all the official evidence logs
NEVER mention a clip. How could there be a clip and yet it NEVER be
mentioned or cataloged by the police?
Besides a properly functioning M-C will have the clip fall out when
the last round is chambered (as they found it) so the likely scenario
is there was NO clip in it. But the WC couldn't have this, so they
lied and said the clip was bent, but the clip in evidence is in mint
condition.
I have the issue of the DPD, Sheriff deputies and all the SN crime
scene logs on my side, you have a picture and a bunch of liars on the
WC on your side.
> Thus, it is up to him to provide something that shows the DPD and
> Sheriff deputies were all wrong.
>
> I have to provide something to show that the DPD and the Sheriff's
> deputies were all wrong?
Yes, they NEVER said a clip was in the rifle at the time of
discovery. I didn't tell you to claim there was one in the M-C.
> What were they wrong about Rob?? They ONLY person who actually
> examined thar Mannlicher Carcano. ( Oh excuse mean the 7.65 Mauser)
> was Lt JC Day. The only other person that got close to it was Capt.
> Fritz, but he didn't examine he rifle that wasn't his job, it was Lt
> Day's job to examine the rifle. So nobody else could have filed a
> report on clip that they didn't see.
Walt, your understanding of crime scene proceedures is as lacking as
DVP's. Just because Day dusted it do you think it was never given to
anyone else for evidence logging? You are now claiming that ONLY Lt.
Day ever saw the rifle? IF so, this in and of itself would throw out
the rifle as the proper chain of custody was NOT followed. For if Day
took it from Fritz, and then left the TSBD with it and locked it up
for 5 hours the defense could claim anything they wanted in terms of
Day tampering with evidence.
> Now that I've put the ball back on your side of the court... Please
> proceed to PROVE that there was no clip in the rifle.
The ball has ALWAYS been in your court, and will remain so, as you are
the one claiming something the evidence and witness testimony does NOT
show.
> YOU made this claim:" the point is there was NO clip with the rifle
> at the time of discovery, period."
Based on the police records and the testimony of those there, NOT my
opinion.
robcap...@netscape.com
> On 21 Oct, 14:34, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 21, 3:20 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 21 Oct, 14:06, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 21, 12:43 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > I started a new thread because we had the old one so scribbled up it
> > > > > was becoming illegible.
>
> > > > > Rob wrote: " the point is there was NO clip with the rifle at the time
>
> > > > > of discovery, period."
>
> > > > > Ok, Rob PROVE that there was no clip with the rifle at the time of
> > > > > discovery of the rifle?
>
> > > > I don't have to prove it, the DPD already DID Walt!!! There is NO
> > > > mention of a clip in the crime scence inventory logs,
>
> > > Let's see it this is rational..... The clip was not visible at the
> > > time the rifle was found and yet Rob thinks there should be some kind
> > > of document that says "I did not see any clip, and I'm going to not
> > > put it on an evidence inventory list" so there won't be an inventory
> > > list with the clip listed on it.
>
> > Please Walt, you are sounding as lame as the LNers you claimed NOT to
> > be for many years. Once the rifle was dusted for prints it was handed
> > over to the officers to be categorized into the inventory log.
>
> As usual.... You make up stuff.
LOL!! This coming from a guy who has made up more stuff than anyone on
here with the exception of DVP.
> Lt Day was the ONE and ONLY person to have possession of the rifle
> until it was turned over to FBI agent Vince Drain at midnight that
> night. Drain took possession of it and was flown on an airforce jet
> to FBI headquarters in Washington DC.
First of all, this violated the chain of custody proceedure as it
should have been handed over for a second view and cataloging. Let's
say he did do this though, do you think he would not check the rifle
fully and at least tell the officer logging in the evidence that there
was a clip in the rifle???? You can squirm all you want, there is NO
valid reason to explain why the clip is NEVER mentioned if it was in
the rifle.
> > mention of a clip appears, in fact, according to Sylvia Meagher (she
> > spent a ton of time making an index for the delibrately non-indexed 26
> > volumes) there was NO mention of any clip until the WCR came out in
> > 9/64. NOT ONE mention.
>
> I can explain that.... We ABSOLUTELY AND POSITIVELY know that there
> was a clip hanging out of the magazine when Day left the TSBD ( You
> can't honestly deny that because several different photographers took
> photos showing the clip hanging there) BUT Lt Day DID NOT know that
> he was about to lose that clip. And he did lose it.....somewhere along
> the way. When someone asked what happened to the clip that was shown
> in the photos the DPD covered their ass and went and got a replacement
> clip.
More SPECULATION from Walt, how about some proof for a change? Even
with a clip "hanging out of the rifle" as it left the building still
does NOT prove the clip was IN the rifle when it was discovered. Why
is Walt lying and distorting this point?
tomnln
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WALLY WROTE;
I can explain that.... We ABSOLUTELY AND POSITIVELY know that there
was a clip hanging out of the magazine when Day left the TSBD ( You
can't honestly deny that because several different photographers took
photos showing the clip hanging there) BUT Lt Day DID NOT know that
he was about to lose that clip. And he did lose it.....somewhere along
the way. When someone asked what happened to the clip that was shown
in the photos the DPD covered their ass and went and got a replacement
clip.
I write;
Please PROVE that "the DPD covered their ass and went and got a replacement
clip."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tomnln
Because You had Your head up the Elephant's Ass.
Walt
> It is well-known that the rifle allegedly used as the murder weapon
> was identified as a 6.5 millimeter caliber, Italian-made, bolt-action,
> military rifle called a Mannlicher-Carcano, after its two inventors.
> It is largely unknown that during WWII, it was one of only two
> military-use rifles in the world that fed a cartridge into the chamber
> from a clip. The other was the M-1 Garand. The difference between the
> two is that the clip on the M-1 Garand ejects when the last round is
> fired, while on the Carcano the clip ejects when the last round is
> chambered.
This is the trouble with ignoramuses .... They are IGNORANT.
It is stupid to compare a Mannlicher carcano to a M1 Garand
The M1 clip is EJECTED by mecanical action of the rifle spitting the
clip out of the rifle when the last round is fired.
The clip is ejected and the bolt automatically locks open so the user
can insert another full clip of live ammo.
The mannlicher Carcano does NOT E-J-E-C-T the the clip. The clip
merely falls out the bottom f the rifle when the last round is
chambered. ....And there is NOTHING to force that to happen. The clip
can easily get stuck in the magazine and stay there until it is pushed
out by a new clip of live ammunition.
"In the clip system, the clip remains attached to the
> rounds on loading and forms an essential part of the magazine system,
> a follower forcing the rounds out of the clip and presenting them in
> turn to the bolt for loading."8
>
> According to the Warren Report, when the weapon allegedly used to kill
> the President was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
> Depository (TSBD), one cartridge remained, and it was in the chamber.
Again we are dealing we ignoramuses... Who listened to the original
ignoramus ( Fritz and Day)
Photos show that the bolt was NOT latched when the rifle was pulled
from beneath the boxes. Therefore the rifle was NOT ready to
fire....because the round was not lached into the firing chamber.
> 9
>
> Therefore, if operating properly, the rifle had automatically ejected
> the clip.
Flatly incorrect as I explained above.
The Warren Commission reported, however, that when the rifle
> was found, it contained a clip.10
It probably did....but NOBODY saw that clip until the cameras saw it
outside of the TSBD but those cameras merely recorded the image.
After the cameras recorded the clip hanging from the magazine we have
no further record of that clip.
>
> Firearms experts for the HSCA explained the discrepancy. On September
> 8, 1978, Monty C. Lutz of the Committee's firearms panel, was asked
> about this by Pennsylvania Representative Robert W. Edgar.
>
> Mr. Edgar. The cartridge clip was removed from CE-139 by Lieutenant
> Day of the Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime
> laboratory for the police department.
I doubt that the clip stayed in that rifle for very long after the
cameras recorded it being there. It was about to drop out when it was
recorded.... to believe that it stayed in that rifle all the way to
the police station and up to the crime lab falls in the same realm as
believing that it's possible to drive a motorcycle a mile down a
gravel road with a goblet of water sitting on the gas tank and never
spill a drop of water.
Shouldn't a clip automatically
> fall out once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber?
> Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that
> the last cartridge is stripped out of the clip, then that allows the
> clip itself to fall or to drop from the opening
Hoorah!!... The man got it right....
that you see in the
> bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this
> particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through
> it, we found this clip to stay in the rifle after the last round had
> been stripped and fed into the chamber.
Hoorah!...he's right again
Because the lips or the edges
> of the clip many times will open up, they will spring against the
> walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that
> areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it
> will hang up in the box area.11
Dirt and rust should also have been mentioned ....
>
> That explanation seems reasonable enough. But it is not. It is true
> that the clip must be deformed to have any chance of getting as stuck
> as this one. But once bent, it stays bent.
NOT true.... The clip was light guage brass and it is easily squeezed
shut again.
Commission Exhibits (CEs)
> 574 and 575 are photographs of the alleged clip in its normal, unbent
> condition. And five years after the HSCA reported the clip deformed,
> Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal
> condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12
True ....BUT...BUT....IS this clip the same clip that the cameras
saw ??? Or did that clip get lost??
>
> According to assassination researcher and author J.W. Hughes, who has
> tested this deformation over fifty times on each of his seven
> Mannlicher-Carcanos, "When deformed, it will not hold the rounds
> because the locking ridge is spread too wide to hold the round and the
> weapon jams."13
If it's spread so far apart that it won't hold cartridges, It won't go
in the rifle either.
>
> The Warren Commission was apparently silent about whether expert
> riflemen from the U.S. Army and FBI had such difficulty firing the
> alleged murder weapon in 1964, and whether it was fired with its
> alleged clip. Whether or not those marksmen used the original clip,
> they were required to use any test clip in the original's apparent
> "found" condition, i.e., deformed.
WHO can attest to the clips "found condition"?? When we can't be
certain that the clip in custody is the same clip the camera's saw.
He had to use a clip... The rifle cannot be used as a single shot
rifle. The DESIGN of the rifle prohibits it.
>
> Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with the clip in?
>
> Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.
>
> Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?
>
> Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to
> identify as having come from the clip, nor were we checking for time
> firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.15
>
> Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel
> Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets
> were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests
> were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]
> cartridge clip and inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The
> cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected
> without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the
> cartridge clip remained in the magazine instead of falling out as it
> is designed to do."16
>
> Given Mr. Lutz's "the clip many times will open up" statement, this
> result demands further explanation.
>
> "Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when
> heated and can alter its shape.
This idea of the clip changing shape because of heat is utterly
ludicrious.... MY God!! Did any witness report about twenty rounds
being fired so the MAGAZINE area of the rifle would be warm??
> obviously distorted "(3)" by the time the Warren ...
>
> read more »
robcap...@netscape.com
> On 21 Oct, 14:27, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > It is well-known that the rifle allegedly used as the murder weapon
> > was identified as a 6.5 millimeter caliber, Italian-made, bolt-action,
> > military rifle called a Mannlicher-Carcano, after its two inventors.
> > It is largely unknown that during WWII, it was one of only two
> > military-use rifles in the world that fed a cartridge into the chamber
> > from a clip. The other was the M-1 Garand. The difference between the
> > two is that the clip on the M-1 Garand ejects when the last round is
> > fired, while on the Carcano the clip ejects when the last round is
> > chambered.
>
> This is the trouble with ignoramuses .... They are IGNORANT.
This is the trouble with ignaramuses who CAN'T READ....they mess
everything up.
The point made in this story, and others I have read, is that the were
ONLY two WWII style rifles that used a clip at all....the M-C and the
M-1.
The whole point Walt refuses to get, or is too full of lies to admit,
is that the police found a Carcano with NO clip in it. The ones in on
the conspiracy panicked as there was a round in the chamber still so
they said "hey, wait a minute, there is still a round in the chamber
the clip shouldn't have ejected yet." Of course this is how the M-1
works, NOT the Carcano. But since many of these men were far more
familiar with a M-1 than a Carcano they went and got a clip to put in
it.
They goofed of course as a Carcano does not cause the clip to fall
away until the last round is chambered, NOT fired, thus the shooters/
conspirators left it in the right condition, but the conspirators who
were working for the police (i.e. Fritz) thought there should still be
a clip.
This is how you can have a rifle found with NO clip and still have one
in it later on.
> It is stupid to compare a Mannlicher carcano to a M1 Garand
Tell that to the conspirators who only knowledge was with the M-1 in
all liklihood.
Walt
Properly functioning....Key words....
For the rifle to properly function it would have to have been used in
a normal manner that day. It presumes that the rifle was used as a
firearm that day.
Do you believe the rifle was functioned that day??
The clip will not always fall out and it doesn't need to be deformed
in any way... Since gravity is the ONLY force behind the clip when the
last cartrige is stripped from it, if the rifle isn't vertical,
gravity cannot overcome the friction and the clip will remain in the
rifle. It may even get a little out of place in that magazine and
become stuck there.
But the WC couldn't have this, so they
> lied and said the clip was bent, but the clip in evidence is in mint
> condition.
The Warren Commission was as dishonest and stupid as you about the
rifle
So they made stuff up just like you do.
>
> I have the issue of the DPD, Sheriff deputies and all the SN crime
> scene logs on my side, you have a picture and a bunch of liars on the
> WC on your side.
Ill take the photo evidence any day
>
> > Thus, it is up to him to provide something that shows the DPD and
> > Sheriff deputies were all wrong.
>
> > I have to provide something to show that the DPD and the Sheriff's
> > deputies were all wrong?
>
> Yes, they NEVER said a clip was in the rifle at the time of
> discovery. I didn't tell you to claim there was one in the M-C.
>
> > What were they wrong about Rob?? They ONLY person who actually
> > examined thar Mannlicher Carcano. ( Oh excuse mean the 7.65 Mauser)
> > was Lt JC Day. The only other person that got close to it was Capt.
> > Fritz, but he didn't examine he rifle that wasn't his job, it was Lt
> > Day's job to examine the rifle. So nobody else could have filed a
> > report on clip that they didn't see.
>
> Walt, your understanding of crime scene proceedures is as lacking as
> DVP's. Just because Day dusted it do you think it was never given to
> anyone else for evidence logging?
You need an education ....to learn the FACTs read the records, and
burn those funny books...
You are now claiming that ONLY Lt.
> Day ever saw the rifle? IF so, this in and of itself would throw out
> the rifle as the proper chain of custody was NOT followed. For if Day
> took it from Fritz, and then left the TSBD with it and locked it up
> for 5 hours the defense could claim anything they wanted in terms of
> Day tampering with evidence.
>
> > Now that I've put the ball back on your side of the court... Please
> > proceed to PROVE that there was no clip in the rifle.
>
> The ball has ALWAYS been in your court, and will remain so, as you are
> the one claiming something the evidence and witness testimony does NOT
> show.
>
> > YOU made this claim:" the point is there was NO clip with the rifle
> > at the time of discovery, period."
>
> Based on the police records and the testimony of those there, NOT my
> opinion.
Not Good enough Rob.... I want PROOF..documented PROOF that there was
no clip in that rifle when it was found ..as you claimed.
Walt
wrote:
Oh, Now I get it!!...... The conspirators who were working for Fritz
were all confused . Though they had never seen the rifle (the 7.65
Mauser) up close because only Day examined it but the knew that they'd
have to dash right out to their nearest Mannlicher Carcano store and
buy a clip for a 7.65 Mauser to sick in the magazine opening of a 40
inch long Mannlicher Carcano so the photographers would get a photo of
that 7.65 Mauser clip hanging fron a 6.5mm Carcano .
OK carry on....
robcap...@netscape.com
Walt, why is it so IMPORTANT for you have a clip in the Carcano when
all the evidence shows there wasn't one?????? What is your motive for
this action?
Well again the WC shot themselves in the foot as they said this weapon
killed JFK, so it had to be working properly in their world.
> For the rifle to properly function it would have to have been used in
> a normal manner that day. It presumes that the rifle was used as a
> firearm that day.
NO it doesn't, it simply means the shooters (who had far more
knowledge how a Carcano works) left it the was it would have looked IF
it was used, but of course no one would have used the mess they left.
The problem was the few who were in on it that found it did NOT know
how a Carcano functioned in regards to the clip, so they used the M-1
as a standard.
> Do you believe the rifle was functioned that day??
No, and it did NOT have to be used to be left with NO clip. Don't try
and twist things around either.
> The clip will not always fall out and it doesn't need to be deformed
> in any way... Since gravity is the ONLY force behind the clip when the
> last cartrige is stripped from it, if the rifle isn't vertical,
> gravity cannot overcome the friction and the clip will remain in the
> rifle. It may even get a little out of place in that magazine and
> become stuck there.
So what makes you more of an expert than J.W. Hughes who has 7
Carcanos? This is the lame stuff you tried last year, but now we know
you have admitted you CAN'T prove the clip was in the rifle when
found.
All this is conjecture, the real proof is NO officer mentioned it, no
inventory log shows it, and there is NO mention of it until 9/64 when
the WCR came out.
> But the WC couldn't have this, so they
>
> > lied and said the clip was bent, but the clip in evidence is in mint
> > condition.
>
> The Warren Commission was as dishonest and stupid as you about the
> rifle
> So they made stuff up just like you do.
You are priceless, but luckily Tom has chronicled all of your lies for
us. I'm NOT the one insisting there is a clip in the rifle (which
benefits the WC) when there is NO proof of it being there. You are a
WC shill.
> > I have the issue of the DPD, Sheriff deputies and all the SN crime
> > scene logs on my side, you have a picture and a bunch of liars on the
> > WC on your side.
>
> Ill take the photo evidence any day
It shows how much you understand an investigation and it's
proceedures. NO wonder you are so lost in this case. It is a murder
case, not a traffic ticket case.
> > > Thus, it is up to him to provide something that shows the DPD and
> > > Sheriff deputies were all wrong.
>
> > > I have to provide something to show that the DPD and the Sheriff's
> > > deputies were all wrong?
>
> > Yes, they NEVER said a clip was in the rifle at the time of
> > discovery. I didn't tell you to claim there was one in the M-C.
>
> > > What were they wrong about Rob?? They ONLY person who actually
> > > examined thar Mannlicher Carcano. ( Oh excuse mean the 7.65 Mauser)
> > > was Lt JC Day. The only other person that got close to it was Capt.
> > > Fritz, but he didn't examine he rifle that wasn't his job, it was Lt
> > > Day's job to examine the rifle. So nobody else could have filed a
> > > report on clip that they didn't see.
>
> > Walt, your understanding of crime scene proceedures is as lacking as
> > DVP's. Just because Day dusted it do you think it was never given to
> > anyone else for evidence logging?
>
> You need an education ....to learn the FACTs read the records, and
> burn those funny books...
Already have, that is why I know what you are saying is a LIE!
Walt
Well, well, well, ...lookie here.....
Rob Wrote:They goofed of course as a Carcano does not cause the clip
to fall away until the last round is chambered,
clip to fall away until the last round is chambered, FALL AWAY WHEN
THE LAST ROUND IS CHAMBERED
Rob why the hell couldn't you have acknowledged this a year ago???
This is where we first crossed swords....Barb J and Ben and Myself all
tried to tell you that the rifle is DESIGNED so that the clip merely
falls out of the rifle when the last round is chambered.
At that time we were discussing this very same subject about the
mystery behind why Day didn't see a clip at the time the rifle was
discovered.....and you in your pigheaded stubbornness called us liars
and LNer's and other choice names.
Now a year later you acknowledge that you learned that lesson. Well
you may be a slow learner but at least I was able to teach you one
thing.
Walt
Rob, My motive has always been the same....I want the Facts and the
truth...
Walt, why is it so IMPORTANT for you have a clip in the Carcano when
all the evidence shows there wasn't one??????
Rob the evidence does NOT show that there wasn't a clip.... It shows
that nobody was aware of one.
I've asked you to prove your point that there was no clip with the
rifle and you have failed miserably.
Here's your claim again: "the point is there was NO clip with the
rifle at the time of discovery, period."
Do you want to try again to PROVE that there was NO clip with the
rifle when it was discovered??
What is your motive for this action?
Motive:...Establish the FACTS to the best of my knowledge working from
the evidence and my knowledge of the Mannlicher Carcano .
>
> Well again the WC shot themselves in the foot as they said this weapon
> killed JFK, so it had to be working properly in their world.
>
> > For the rifle to properly function it would have to have been used in
> > a normal manner that day. It presumes that the rifle was used as a
> > firearm that day.
>
> NO it doesn't, it simply means the shooters (who had far more
> knowledge how a Carcano works) left it the was it would have looked IF
> it was used, but of course no one would have used the mess they left.
> The problem was the few who were in on it that found it did NOT know
> how a Carcano functioned in regards to the clip, so they used the M-1
> as a standard.
>
> > Do you believe the rifle was functioned that day??
>
> No, and it did NOT have to be used to be left with NO clip. Don't try
> and twist things around either.
Twist things around?? ... Rob I merely want to know if you think that
rifle was even fired that day??
>
> > The clip will not always fall out and it doesn't need to be deformed
> > in any way... Since gravity is the ONLY force behind the clip when the
> > last cartrige is stripped from it, if the rifle isn't vertical,
> > gravity cannot overcome the friction and the clip will remain in the
> > rifle. It may even get a little out of place in that magazine and
> > become stuck there.
>
> So what makes you more of an expert than J.W. Hughes who has 7
> Carcanos?
I don't care if he's got 700 Carcanos ....The guy's wrong
However if number of rifles equate to a higher knowledge then I'm
smarter than Hughes because I have more Carcanos that he does.
This is the lame stuff you tried last year, but now we know
> you have admitted you CAN'T prove the clip was in the rifle when
> found.
>
> All this is conjecture, the real proof is NO officer mentioned it, no
> inventory log shows it, and there is NO mention of it until 9/64 when
> the WCR came out.
>
> > But the WC couldn't have this, so they
>
> > > lied and said the clip was bent, but the clip in evidence is in mint
> > > condition.
>
> > The Warren Commission was as dishonest and stupid as you about the
> > rifle
> > So they made stuff up just like you do.
>
> You are priceless, but luckily Tom has chronicled all of your lies for
> us. I'm NOT the one insisting there is a clip in the rifle (which
> benefits the WC) when there is NO proof of it being there. You are a
> WC shill.
Rob ...how does a clip being in the rifle benefit the Warren
Commission?
>
> > > I have the issue of the DPD, Sheriff deputies and all the SN crime
> > > scene logs on my side, you have a picture and a bunch of liars on the
> > > WC on your side.
>
> > Ill take the photo evidence any day
>
> It shows how much you understand an investigation and it's
> proceedures. NO wonder you are so lost in this case. It is a murder
> case, not a traffic ticket case.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > > Thus, it is up to him to provide something that shows the DPD and
> > > > Sheriff deputies were all wrong.
>
> > > > I have to provide something to show that the DPD and the Sheriff's
> > > > deputies were all wrong?
>
> > > Yes, they NEVER said a clip was in the rifle at the time of
> > > discovery. I didn't tell you to claim there was one in the M-C.
>
> > > > What were they wrong about Rob?? They ONLY person who actually
> > > > examined thar Mannlicher Carcano. ( Oh excuse mean the 7.65 Mauser)
> > > > was Lt JC Day. The only other person that got close to it was Capt.
> > > > Fritz, but he didn't examine he rifle that wasn't his job, it was Lt
> > > > Day's job to examine the rifle. So nobody else could have filed a
> > > > report on clip that they didn't see.
>
> > > Walt, your understanding of crime scene proceedures is as lacking as
> > > DVP's. Just because Day dusted it do you think it was never given to
> > > anyone else for evidence logging?
>
> > You need an education ....to learn the FACTs read the records, and
> > burn those funny books...
>
> Already have, that is why I know what you are saying is a LIE!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Gil Jesus
> On 21 Oct, 14:27, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > It is well-known that the rifle allegedly used as the murder weapon
> > was identified as a 6.5 millimeter caliber, Italian-made, bolt-action,
> > military rifle called a Mannlicher-Carcano, after its two inventors.
> > It is largely unknown that during WWII, it was one of only two
> > military-use rifles in the world that fed a cartridge into the chamber
> > from a clip. The other was the M-1 Garand. The difference between the
> > two is that the clip on the M-1 Garand ejects when the last round is
> > fired, while on the Carcano the clip ejects when the last round is
> > chambered.
>
> This is the trouble with ignoramuses .... They are IGNORANT.
Again, Walt rejects an article with sources and footnotes because he
KNOWS better. But where are Walt's sources ? Anyone see them ? I
didn't.
Remember Walt that you were the one who started the insults and name
calling. You were the one who did the stabbing in the back. You are
the one posting OPINION without any foundation of fact.
Now it's MY TURN:
WALT ON SPECULATING IN GENERAL:
Speculating is speculating....... Whether it's you, or I, or anybody
else...... There are no "varying degrees" .....Some theories are
more logical than others but they are still just speculation until
they are demonstrated to be correct.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/ff4cda36b1c0231d
WALT ON THE SPECULATION OF OTHERS -- IT'S BS:
"They had their head up their asses just like you..... So they
SPECULATED ... "
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/899e1cbcf8a10c4c
"I don't need a bunch of silver tongued lawyers to SPECULATE and then
hand me their pile of B.S."
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/c38bcf3206e752f8
"The authorities handed us a platter of BS that is entirely based on
speculation."
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/c2d9a89909a82125
BUT WALT TAKES A DIFFERENT STANCE HOWEVER ON HIS OWN SPECULATING:
"It's no secret that any intellgent person will speculate about an
event. A good detective will speculate and set up possible scenarios
about a crime based on the evidence availble to him."
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0a674c55f1a2bc51
WALT SPECULATES WITH NO EVIDENCE THEN SETS UP THE SCENARIO, LIKE
THESE:
1. 133-a had "Dual Sling Mounts".
2. LHO worked for RFK
3. Mike Paine gave the DPD a copy of 133-a on 11/22/63.
4. A wallet was found in the jacket INSIDE the Oldsmobile, rather
than under it.
5. Michael Paine had same model rifle as Oswald
6. LHO received a 40 inch rifle.
7. LHO shot at Walker.
8. LHO altered the chin in CE-133-a.
9 . A 6.5 was fired from a "sabot".
10. The CIA was gonna "rescue Oswald".
11. The FBI showed Weitzman a Mauser on 11/23/63.
There is not one piece of witness testimony, not one single Commission
Document, not one single Commission Exhibit, not one single sworn
affidavit and not one single witness has come forward in 45 years to
support ANY of the above speculative statements.
And I'm not just talking about the Warren Commission, here. You won't
find it in the HSCA report. You won't find it in the Church Committee
Report. You won't find it in the ARRB report. You won't find it in ANY
pro-conspiracy book ever written. I know, I looked.
It exists only in the mind of one man.
The most damaging thing to the reputation of conspiracy theorists, and
the thing that contributes the most to the stereotypical prejudice
that anyone who believes in a conspiracy is a "kook", are the wild and
unsubstantiated claims made by conspiracy theorists without any basis
of fact.
tomnln
"Gil Jesus" <gjj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:af160311-2407-476c...@l76g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Walt
>
> news:af160311-2407-476c...@l76g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 21, 4:31 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > On 21 Oct, 14:27, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > It is well-known that the rifle allegedly used as the murder weapon
> > > was identified as a 6.5 millimeter caliber, Italian-made, bolt-action,
> > > military rifle called a Mannlicher-Carcano, after its two inventors.
> > > It is largely unknown that during WWII, it was one of only two
> > > military-use rifles in the world that fed a cartridge into the chamber
> > > from a clip. The other was the M-1 Garand. The difference between the
> > > two is that the clip on the M-1 Garand ejects when the last round is
> > > fired, while on the Carcano the clip ejects when the last round is
> > > chambered.
>
> > This is the trouble with ignoramuses .... They are IGNORANT.
>
> Again, Walt rejects an article with sources and footnotes because he
> KNOWS better. But where are Walt's sources ? Anyone see them ? I
> didn't.
>
> Remember Walt that you were the one who started the insults and name
> calling. You were the one who did the stabbing in the back.
Well if you weren't running like a craven coward....I'd have "stabbed
you in the guts and disemboweled you"
Walt
Hey Gil, I thought you were done with me..... I guess you want to get
down and dirty, Huh.
That's ok with me but let's forget the ad hominem attacks...That's
silly adolescent crap more suited to Tom, than you.
Lets debate the evidence.....
And I'd ask you to keep your rebuttals on the subject and as short as
possible.
And I'll do the same.
tomnln
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:02aa9f2e-a22a-42b1...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wally wrote;
Hey Gil, I thought you were done with me..... I guess you want to get
down and dirty, Huh.
That's ok with me but let's forget the ad hominem attacks...That's
silly adolescent crap more suited to Tom, than you.
I WRITE;
You thought it was a pretty good idea when you Started the insults Wally.
Changed your mind after I beat the shit outta you with Better insults Huh?
Like when I asked you to Document your Wild Ass Speculation Claims.
You Packed up and, RAN from your own words.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tomnln
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:f2bb06f8-ecd5-4364...@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On 21 Oct, 17:18, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> Very Well put Gil;
>
> "Gil Jesus" <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:af160311-2407-476c...@l76g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 21, 4:31 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > On 21 Oct, 14:27, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > It is well-known that the rifle allegedly used as the murder weapon
> > > was identified as a 6.5 millimeter caliber, Italian-made, bolt-action,
> > > military rifle called a Mannlicher-Carcano, after its two inventors.
> > > It is largely unknown that during WWII, it was one of only two
> > > military-use rifles in the world that fed a cartridge into the chamber
> > > from a clip. The other was the M-1 Garand. The difference between the
> > > two is that the clip on the M-1 Garand ejects when the last round is
> > > fired, while on the Carcano the clip ejects when the last round is
> > > chambered.
>
> > This is the trouble with ignoramuses .... They are IGNORANT.
>
> Again, Walt rejects an article with sources and footnotes because he
> KNOWS better. But where are Walt's sources ? Anyone see them ? I
> didn't.
>
> Remember Walt that you were the one who started the insults and name
> calling. You were the one who did the stabbing in the back.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WALLY WROTE;
Well if you weren't running like a craven coward....I'd have "stabbed
you in the guts and disemboweled you"
I WRITE;
Like other LN's, Wally resorts to "Threats of Violence" !
Wally's Losin it !
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt
> MIDDLE POST;
>
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message
>
> news:f2bb06f8-ecd5-4364...@q9g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On 21 Oct, 17:18, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Very Well put Gil;
>
> > "Gil Jesus" <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:af160311-2407-476c...@l76g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> > On Oct 21, 4:31 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 21 Oct, 14:27, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > It is well-known that the rifle allegedly used as the murder weapon
> > > > was identified as a 6.5 millimeter caliber, Italian-made, bolt-action,
> > > > military rifle called a Mannlicher-Carcano, after its two inventors.
> > > > It is largely unknown that during WWII, it was one of only two
> > > > military-use rifles in the world that fed a cartridge into the chamber
> > > > from a clip. The other was the M-1 Garand. The difference between the
> > > > two is that the clip on the M-1 Garand ejects when the last round is
> > > > fired, while on the Carcano the clip ejects when the last round is
> > > > chambered.
>
> > > This is the trouble with ignoramuses .... They are IGNORANT.
>
> > Again, Walt rejects an article with sources and footnotes because he
> > KNOWS better. But where are Walt's sources ? Anyone see them ? I
> > didn't.
>
> > Remember Walt that you were the one who started the insults and name
> > calling. You were the one who did the stabbing in the back.
>
> WALLY WROTE;
>
> Well if you weren't running like a craven coward....I'd have "stabbed
> you in the guts and disemboweled you"
>
> I WRITE;
>
> Like other LN's, Wally resorts to "Threats of Violence" !
>
> Wally's Losin it !
Hey you senile, old homosexual..... I am a violent person...But don't
misconstued what I said as threat. I don't make threats.
I was merely pointing out that if you weren't a coward and faced your
foe face to face, like a man. you wouldn't get stabbed in the back.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > of fact.- Hide quoted text -
Walt
> Wally wrote;
>
> Hey Gil, I thought you were done with me..... I guess you want to get
> down and dirty, Huh.
>
> That's ok with me but let's forget the ad hominem attacks...That's
> silly adolescent crap more suited to Tom, than you.
>
> I WRITE;
>
> You thought it was a pretty good idea when you Started the insults Wally.
What the hell's the matter with you haven't you been able to hook up
on any of your homosexual solicitations today? Keep try you sick old
homosexual... Perhaps you'll find some other sicko that wants a BJ.
> Changed your mind after I beat the shit outta you with Better insults Huh?
>
> Like when I asked you to Document your Wild Ass Speculation Claims.
> You Packed up and, RAN from your own words.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Lets debate the evidence.....
>
> And I'd ask you to keep your rebuttals on the subject and as short as
> possible.
> And I'll do the same.- Hide quoted text -
Walt
> On 21 Oct, 15:42, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
clip to fall away until the last round is chambered, FALL AWAY WHEN
THE LAST ROUND IS CHAMBERED
Rob, why the hell couldn't you have acknowledged this a year ago???
> > all liklihood.- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
> I WRITE;
>
> You thought it was a pretty good idea when you Started the insults Wally.
Wally writes;
What the hell's the matter with you haven't you been able to hook up
on any of your homosexual solicitations today? Keep try you sick old
homosexual... Perhaps you'll find some other sicko that wants a BJ.
I write;
Keep Runnin Wally ! ! ! !
tomnln
I write;
You already have my address Whimpy-Ass.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt
You want to challenge me, and show that I'm a Warren Commission
shill....Let's debate #6 on your list, which is entitled "LHO received
a 40 inch rifle." Now you've already established that you're a liar
( concerning you programming your computer to block E mail from me) So
I'm going to have some problem with your integrity. Just try to be as
honest as you were in accepting responsibilty for that E mail.
( Incidentally I had no intention of revealing who sent me that
letter )
Do you understand that first you sent me that letter expressing doubts
about Rob's true colors and then you swung around and endorsed his
screwball stuff and attacked me. But I'm willing to forget and
forgive, in the hope that we can have a fruitful discussion about the
rifle that was sent to Box 2915 in Dallas.
.- Hide quoted text -
Walt
> On 21 Oct, 18:28, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 21 Oct, 17:09, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 21, 4:31 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On 21 Oct, 14:27, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > It is well-known that the rifle allegedly used as the murder weapon
> > > > > was identified as a 6.5 millimeter caliber, Italian-made, bolt-action,
> > > > > military rifle called a Mannlicher-Carcano, after its two inventors.
> > > > > It is largely unknown that during WWII, it was one of only two
> > > > > military-use rifles in the world that fed a cartridge into the chamber
> > > > > two is that theclipon the M-1 Garand ejects when the last round is
> > > > > fired, while on the Carcano theclipejects when the last round is
Gil, doesn't feel that he's prepared to discuss the 40 inch rifle.....
Anybody else want to discuss it?
How about you Tom.... Since you've got the 26 volumes you should be
well prepared to debate me.
Do you have the guts?
>
> .- Hide quoted text -
>
>
>
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
> On 21 Oct, 15:42, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 21, 1:31 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> Well, well, well, ...lookie here.....
>
> Rob Wrote:They goofed of course as a Carcano does not cause the clip
> to fall away until the last round is chambered,
>
> clip to fall away until the last round is chambered, FALL AWAY WHEN
> THE LAST ROUND IS CHAMBERED
>
> Rob why the hell couldn't you have acknowledged this a year ago???
> This is where we first crossed swords....Barb J and Ben and Myself all
> tried to tell you that the rifle is DESIGNED so that the clip merely
> falls out of the rifle when the last round is chambered.
Walt, I think I did say that it could fall away, I remember admitting
that. The point is how it leaves the rifle - in terms of ejecting or
falling - is NOT pertinent to whether it was INSIDE the rifle when it
was discovered. This is what is suspicious about you and Ben, you
make side issues that have NO bearing on the topic the focal point of
the topic. You guys must have when to the same class as you argue the
same way.
Ben even admitted at one point he did NOT believe a clip was in the
rifle, and this was the central point, but he instead attacked me,
along with you, for 3 weeks or so over how the clips leaves the
rifle!! Is that insane or what??? Not really if your mission is to
distort and hide the truth.
> At that time we were discussing this very same subject about the
> mystery behind why Day didn't see a clip at the time the rifle was
> discovered.....and you in your pigheaded stubbornness called us liars
> and LNer's and other choice names.
I called you a liar as you claimed, and still seem to claim, there was
a clip INSIDE the rifle when it was discovered. I called Barb a liar
because she claimed this was a "dead issue" because the clip was
PROVEN to have been inside the rifle when found. This is an out-and-
out lie, it was NEVER mentioned in any report, inventory log of
evidence, or in any witness testimony, in fact, it was NOT mentioned
until 9/64 when the WCR finally come out. I don't remember if I
called Ben a liar or not, but I do remember posting many "expert"
cites that also used the term "eject" and I was told these were NO
good.
> Now a year later you acknowledge that you learned that lesson. Well
> you may be a slow learner but at least I was able to teach you one
> thing.
I admitted it then it could fall away as I wanted the FOCUS on the
point of whether there was a clip or not, you and your cohorts were
obsessed with how the clip leaves a rifle.
robcap...@netscape.com
So I guess your FACTS and TRUTH are different from mine as you are
supporting the FACTS and TRUTHS of the WC.
> Walt, why is it so IMPORTANT for you have a clip in the Carcano when
> all the evidence shows there wasn't one??????
>
> Rob the evidence does NOT show that there wasn't a clip.... It shows
> that nobody was aware of one.
This is the lamest response I have gotten for awhile, exactly what I
would expect from Bud or DVP. It is the job of the officers to LOG
ALL EVIDENCE, so you are saying they would ignore a clip?
> I've asked you to prove your point that there was no clip with the
> rifle and you have failed miserably.
Hardly, the mere FACT there is NO mention of a clip in the reports,
inventory logs, Alyea film and witness testimony proves there was NO
clip. You have provided NOTHING to prove the clip was there.
> Here's your claim again: "the point is there was NO clip with the
> rifle at the time of discovery, period."
>
> Do you want to try again to PROVE that there was NO clip with the
> rifle when it was discovered??
Don't need to, how about proving the clip was dented like the WC
claimed? You seem willing to support them all the time so go for it.
> What is your motive for this action?
Giving my words back to me won't make you any less of a liar. You
claimed the ONLY photograhpic record was the picture of Lt. Day
leaving the TSBD with the rifle, but we know you are a liar as the
Alyea film shows the rifle in may more detail and there is NO clip.
> Motive:...Establish the FACTS to the best of my knowledge working from
> the evidence and my knowledge of the Mannlicher Carcano .
You are just lying to support the WC due to your shill status.
tomnln
Wally wrote;
Gil, doesn't feel that he's prepared to discuss the 40 inch rifle.....
Anybody else want to discuss it?
How about you Tom.... Since you've got the 26 volumes you should be
well prepared to debate me.
Do you have the guts?
I write;
Robert's Rules of Order Wally;
Old Business Before New Business.
You never proved that 133-a had "Dual Sling Mounts".
When are you gonna Prove that LHO worked for RFK???
You never proved that Walker called Germany.
You never proved Oswald ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved Mike Paine gave the DOD a copy of 133-a on 11/22/63.
You never proved the wallet was found "INSIDE" the owner's car.
You never proved Michael Paine had same model rifle.
You never proved Walker believed LHO shot at him.
You never proved that Capt O A Jones said LHO shot AT Walker.
You never proved that the bullet recovered from Walker shooting was copper
jacketed.
You never proved LHO received a 40 minch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHO shot at Walker.
You never proved that LHO ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHOI altered the chin in CE-133-a.
You never proved your claim that a 6.5 was fired from a "sabot".
You never proved your claim that the CIA was gonna "rescue Oswald".
You never proved your claim that the DPD showed Weitzman a Mauser on
11/22/63.
You're a Warren Commission Shill! ! !
tomnln
Wally wrote;
Gil, doesn't feel that he's prepared to discuss the clip..... Anybody
else want to discuss it?
I write;
We're still waitin for you to address those issues already brought up>>>
Walt
> On 21 Oct, 14:27, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > It is well-known that the rifle allegedly used as the murder weapon
> > was identified as a 6.5 millimeter caliber, Italian-made, bolt-action,
> > military rifle called a Mannlicher-Carcano, after its two inventors.
> > It is largely unknown that during WWII, it was one of only two
> > military-use rifles in the world that fed a cartridge into the chamber
> > two is that theclipon the M-1 Garand ejects when the last round is
> > fired, while on the Carcano theclipejects when the last round is
> > chambered.
>
> This is the trouble with ignoramuses .... They are IGNORANT.
>
> It is stupid to compare a Mannlicher carcano to a M1 Garand
>
> Theclipis ejected and the bolt automatically locks open so the user
> can insert another fullclipof liveammo.
>
> The mannlicher Carcano does NOT E-J-E-C-T the theclip. Theclip
> merely falls out the bottom f the rifle when the last round is
> chambered. ....And there is NOTHING to force that to happen. Theclip
> can easily get stuck in the magazine and stay there until it is pushed
> out by a newclipof live ammunition.
>
>
> > rounds on loading and forms an essential part of the magazine system,
> > turn to the bolt for loading."8
>
> > According to the Warren Report, when the weapon allegedly used to kill
> > the President was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
> > Depository (TSBD), one cartridge remained, and it was in the chamber.
>
> Again we are dealing we ignoramuses... Who listened to the original
> ignoramus ( Fritz and Day)
>
> Photos show that the bolt was NOT latched when the rifle was pulled
> from beneath the boxes. Therefore the rifle was NOT ready to
> fire....because the round was not lached into the firing chamber.
>
> > 9
>
> > Therefore, if operating properly, the rifle had automatically ejected
> > theclip.
>
> Flatly incorrect as I explained above.
>
> The Warren Commission reported, however, that when the rifle
>
> > was found, it contained aclip.10
>
> outside of the TSBD but those cameras merely recorded the image.
> no further record of thatclip.
>
>
>
> > Firearms experts for the HSCA explained the discrepancy. On September
> > 8, 1978, Monty C. Lutz of the Committee's firearms panel, was asked
> > about this by Pennsylvania Representative Robert W. Edgar.
>
> > Day of the Dallas Police Department on November 22, 1963 at the crime
> > laboratory for the police department.
>
> cameras recorded it being there. It was about to drop out when it was
> recorded.... to believe that it stayed in that rifle all the way to
> the police station and up to the crime lab falls in the same realm as
> believing that it's possible to drive a motorcycle a mile down a
> gravel road with a goblet of water sitting on the gas tank and never
> spill a drop of water.
>
> Shouldn't aclipautomatically
>
> > fall out once the last cartridge has fed into the chamber?
> > Mr. Lutz. This rifle is designed to incorporate that feature so that
> > the last cartridge is stripped out of theclip, then that allows the
>
> Hoorah!!... The man got it right....
>
> that you see in the
>
> > bottom of the box magazine. However, in many cases, and in this
> > particular case, where we functioned the rifle, fed cartridges through
> > been stripped and fed into the chamber.
>
> Hoorah!...he's right again
>
> Because the lips or the edges
>
> > walls on the inside of the box magazine and it will hang up in that
> > areaa [sic], and even though it is supposed to drop out, many times it
> > will hang up in the box area.11
>
> Dirt and rust should also have been mentioned ....
>
>
>
> > That explanation seems reasonable enough. But it is not. It is true
> > as this one. But once bent, it stays bent.
>
> shut again.
>
> Commission Exhibits (CEs)
>
> > condition. And five years after the HSCA reported theclipdeformed,
> > Life magazine photographer Michael O'Neill photographed it in normal
> > condition for Life's November 1983 issue.12
>
> saw ??? Or did thatclipget lost??
>
>
>
According to assassination researcher and author J.W. Hughes, who has
tested this deformation over fifty times on each of his seven
Mannlicher-Carcanos, "When deformed, it will not hold the rounds
because the locking ridge is spread too wide to hold the round and the
weapon jams."13
If it's spread so far apart that it won't hold cartridges, It won't
go in the rifle either.
AND... Hughes statement would presuppose that the clip was actually
being used as a as a device to hold cartridges to fire the rifle. If
it had been inserted into the opening on the bottom of the magazine
just so it would be there with the rifle, what difference would it
make if it would hold cartridges .... It was merely a part of the
stage prop rifle that had not been fired that day.
>
> > The Warren Commission was apparently silent about whether expert
> > riflemen from the U.S. Army and FBI had such difficulty firing the
> > alleged murder weapon in 1964, and whether it was fired with its
> > allegedclip. Whether or not those marksmen used the originalclip,
> > they were required to use any testclipin the original's apparent
> > "found" condition, i.e., deformed.
>
> WHO can attest to the clips "found condition"?? When we can't be
> certain that theclipin custody is the sameclipthe camera's saw.
>
> Anyone could have tested theclip
>
>
>
>
>
> > by duplicating its required abnormal behavior, and can still. But CBS
> > News, which claimed to "duplicate the conditions of the actual
> > assassination" in its filmed rifle test in 1967, did not. According to
> > reporter Dan Rather, "Eleven volunteer marksmen took turns firing
> > clips of three bullets each at the moving target." They fired a total
> > of thirty-seven three-round series, seventeen of which resulted in
> > unfired bullets due to "trouble with the rifle."Clipproblems or not,
> > all data from those seventeen troubled series was disregarded by CBS
> > analysts. It was the other series of shots, however, with properly
> > emptied and ejected clips, deemed worthy of analysis by CBS, that
> > should have been disqualified. In the CBS film, clips can be seen
> > flying out of the gun so fast as to be a blur.14
>
> > If a testclipis not bent, or ejects, or moves at all, Oswald's
> > alleged feat is not duplicated, invalidating the test. The HSCA
> > firearms panel seemed not to be interested in this phenomenon, since
> > it did not test theclipunder firing conditions. Congressman Edgar
> > learned about the defect from Mr. Lutz when he asked for details about
> > their firing test:
>
> > Mr. Lutz. This was a single cartridge being inserted into the chamber
> > and firing into a cotton waste recovery box...backing away from the
> > box, a foot or two, and pointing the muzzle into the box and then
> > firing into it, in order to recover the projectile.
> > Mr. Edgar. But you weren't firing withclip-- using theclip, were
> > you?
>
> > Mr. Lutz. No sir; I did not.
>
> He had to use aclip... The rifle cannot be used as a single shot
> rifle. The DESIGN of the rifle prohibits it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Mr. Edgar. Did anyone on the panel fire with theclipin?
>
> > Mr. Lutz. I do not believe so; no, sir.
>
> > Mr. Edgar. What was the reason for that?
>
> > Mr. Lutz. There were no particular markings that we were able to
> > identify as having come from theclip, nor were we checking for time
> > firing or sequential firing in any way in that respect.15
>
> > Under the heading "Findings and Conclusions of the Firearms Panel
> > Concerning the Kennedy Assassination," we learn that, "Two bullets
> > were test-fired into a horizontal water recovery tank. Further tests
> > were conducted by loading four cartridges into the CE 375 [sic]
> > cartridgeclipand inserting it into the magazine of the rifle. The
> > cartridges were worked through the rifle's mechanism and ejected
> > without being fired. When the last cartridge was chambered, the
> > cartridgeclipremained in the magazine instead of falling out as it
> > is designed to do."16
>
> > Given Mr. Lutz's "theclipmany times will open up" statement, this
> > result demands further explanation.
>
> > "Many times will" also means "many times won't." Metal expands when
> > heated and can alter its shape.
>
> This idea of theclipchanging shape because of heat is utterly
> ludicrious.... MY God!! Did any witness report about twenty rounds
> being fired so the MAGAZINE area of the rifle would be warm??
>
> But during the HSCA tests of the
>
>
>
> > loading mechanism, the rifle should have been cool. In addition, CE
> > 541 (3), a photograph of theclipstuck in the magazine reproduced on
> > page 83 of the Warren Report, shows it in a cool rifle. Surely the
> > rifle had not been fired for some time before that photography
> > session. Is Lutz suggesting that theclip'ssides spring out when cool
> > and then return to a normal shape in the heat of firing? If such a
> > violation of the laws of physics occurs with this rifle andclip, how
> > then could the rifle have "contained aclip" when found?
>
> > Also, the HSCA's explanation does not explain what happened after the
> > rifle was found. Over at least the next twenty-four hours, the Dallas
> > Police Department reported, and left uncorrected, descriptions that
> > remain a paradox to this day. Early news reports seemed to identify
> > the murder weapon as anything but a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano. NBC
> > and WBAP radio identified it as a British Enfield .303. KLIF radio
> > said it was a 7.65 German Mauser. KRLD radio announced that the rifle
>
> ...
>
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