LHO's Rifle discovered in the Texas School Book Depository ............. !
cdddraftsman
By John McAdams
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/double.htm
Two Rifles
There is today in the National Archives in College Park, Maryland, a
6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial number C2766, linked to Lee
Oswald by an impressive array of evidence.
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter...
But was this the rifle discovered in the Texas School Book Depository
less than an hour after the shooting? Not surprisingly, many
conspiracists insist that it wasn't, and that there was another
rifle.
There are at least three versions of this theory.
The Classic Version —
This version begins with reports that the rifle discovered in the
Depository was not a Mannlicher-Carcano, but a Mauser. All of these
reports had a common origin: the identification of the rifle as a
Mauser by Sheriff's Dep. Seymour Weitzman, http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/weitzman.htm
who glanced at the gun as it lay on the floor amid a pile of boxes.
This identification was repeated by other officers such as Eugene
Boone, http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/boone.gif
and picked up by the media. But J.C. Day of the Dallas Police
Identification Bureau announced that the rifle was in fact a
Mannlicher-Carcano. Was the Mannlicher-Carcano substituted for the
Mauser in the chain of evidence?
The LaFontaine Version —
In their book Oswald Talked, the Ray and Mary LaFontaine accept the
"6th floor Mauser" story, and then up the ante by concluding that two
rifles were found in the Depository: a Mauser on the 6th floor, and a
Mannlicher-Carcano on the 4th or 5th floor. Their sole source of the
"lower floor" theory is a single witness. According to the La
Fontaines:
Former AFT agent Frank Ellsworth, who participated in a second search
of the book depository conducted after 1:30 p.m. on November 22,
1963,
according to a Secret Service document, confirms that the Mannlicher-
Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the fourth or fifth floor of
the building, "not on the same floor as the cartridges." He adds: "I
remember we talked about it, and figured that he must have run out
from the stairwell and dropped it as he was running downstairs." (p.
374)
The Groden Version —
This theory, featured in Robert Groden's book The Killing of a
President,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140240039/kennedyassassina
is based on amateur movie footage shot by Ernest Charles Mentesana on
the day of the assassination. The Mentesana film shows a brief scene
of a cop with a long gun on a fire escape outside an upper floor of
the Depository, and then cuts to a scene of several police officers
huddled in a discussion. One of the officers has a long gun on his
shoulder. Groden tells his readers that the film shows a rifle that
was "reportedly handed down . . . from the roof to the seventh floor
fire escape, and examined . . . on the street" (p. 66). Groden adds
"this gun is not a Carcano, and has never been placed into evidence."
Of course, believing any of these accounts requires ignoring a lot of
evidence. The rifle discovered on the sixth floor of the Depository
was photographed in place
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/hiddenrifle.jpg
by Officer Studebaker, and then its recovery was photographed on 16
mm. film by TV cameraman Tom Alyea. The rifle shown in the films is a
Mannlicher-Carcano.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/infojfk/jfk6/assass.htm
Frank Ellsworth's story is admitted hearsay and is contradicted by
literally every witness who testified about the recovery of the
rifle.
And Groden's "second rifle" is actually a shotgun of the kind that
numerous cops had in Dealey Plaza. The officers are not "examining"
it, but are merely gathered together having a discussion, with one
officer holding the gun on his shoulder.
end ........
tl
Gil Jesus
You sure that was Oswald's rifle that was found in the TSBD ?
Oswald's rifle had bottom sling swivels and the TSBD Carcano had side
mounted swivels.
How do you account for that, Jer ?
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1LtbKne9zAjBv4xQp5Fd3Ig=/large/
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L*LOZAQv5p0vv4xQp5Fd3Ig=/large/
Sam McClung
"Gil Jesus" <gjj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:897a3674-b889-4f76...@v56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
1st link not working
seems attribution to jack white on 2nd link may be referring to jerry
mcleer's work on the graphic, seems i recall mcleer doing those graphics
when we were into that topic hot and heavy years ago, mcleer's original
without here, the labels someone added
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L*LOZAQv5p0vv4xQp5Fd3Ig=/large/
Sam McClung
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/Image14.jpg&imgrefurl=http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html&h=269&w=230&sz=28&hl=en&start=13&um=1&usg=__UM4h5m8FQCJ-B84Lm-rEqwRkjak=&tbnid=5JoZLJx4iHjotM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=97&prev=/images%3Fq%3Doswald%2Brifle%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7TSHB%26sa%3DN
"Sam McClung" <mcc...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:gdevc...@news1.newsguy.com...
Walt
> Hey Jer:
>
> You sure that was Oswald's rifle that was found in the TSBD ?
>
> Oswald's rifle had bottom sling swivels and the TSBD Carcano had side
> mounted swivels.
Gil, I believe you're on the wrong track..... CE 133A DOES in fact
show Oswald holding a Mannlicher Carcano rifle with bottom sling
swivels.
CE 133A Is THE photograph that Marina took at Lee's request in March
of 1963. Somebody "touched up" the photo at the time the print was
produced from the negative. Since Oswald was working at a photo shop
at the time it very probable that he is the person who added what
appears to be a WHITE sling floating in the air beneath the rifle.
And he may have alteed his cin slighty to give his face a stronger
countenance.
I don't know who owned this rifle with the bottom sling swivels but it
definitely isn't the rifle that was found in the TSBD with the serial
# C2766.
The only way I can make any sense out of this is by speculating that
there were two MC's involved in the hoax to create publicity for
General Walker. One belonged to Mike Paine ( botom swivel) and the
other was Oswald's (C2766 with side swivels) Somehow Paine and Oswald
got their rifles switched so when Marina took that photo Oswald had
Paine's rifle with the bottom sling swivels. ( they may never have
switched back)
It's entirely possible that Paine had the rifle that Oswald had
received from Kleins and Oswald had Paines rifle and Oswald never knew
the difference.
>
> How do you account for that, Jer ?
>
> http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1Ltb...
>
> http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L*L...
tomnln
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:d6e60496-8e02-4273...@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Walt
> MORE "Speculation" from Wally to make the WCR look Good! ! ! !
I've received an E mail that explains Tom's obsession with trying to
discredit me. The message said that Tom is desperate to be the man who
solved the mystery surrounding the assassination. He's totally
unqualified for that role because his brain is weak. He hates
anybody who he perceives as a threat to his glory.
I never thought of that....but It sure makes sense.
>
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message
> >>http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L*L...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
tomnln
On 19 Oct, 12:42, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> MORE "Speculation" from Wally to make the WCR look Good! ! ! !
I've received an E mail that explains Tom's obsession with trying to
discredit me. The message said that Tom is desperate to be the man who
solved the mystery surrounding the assassination. He's totally
unqualified for that role because his brain is weak. He hates
anybody who he perceives as a threat to his glory.
I never thought of that....but It sure makes sense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More "GHOST" Sources Wally?????
Were all of your other Lies from "GHOST" Sources Wally????
Is that WHY you RUN from your own Bullshit LIES???
Your own Lying posts is what "Discredits" you>>>
You never proved that 133-a had "Dual Sling Mounts".
When are you gonna Prove that LHO worked for RFK???
You never proved that Walker called Germany.
You never proved Oswald ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved Mike Paine gave the DOD a copy of 133-a on 11/22/63.
You never proved the wallet was found "INSIDE" the owner's car.
You never proved Michael Paine had same model rifle.
You never proved Walker believed LHO shot at him.
You never proved that Capt O A Jones said LHO shot AT Walker.
You never proved that the bullet recovered from Walker shooting was copper
jacketed.
You never proved LHO received a 40 minch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHO shot at Walker.
You never proved that LHO ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHOI altered the chin in CE-133-a.
You never proved your claim that a 6.5 was fired from a "sabot".
You never proved your claim that the CIA was gonna "rescue Oswald".
You never proved your claim that the DPD showed Weitzman a Mauser on
11/22/63.
You're a Warren Commission Shill! ! !
I got an e-mail stating that you Slept with J Edgar Hoover. (see how it
works?)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message
>
> On 19 Oct, 12:42, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > MORE "Speculation" from Wally to make the WCR look Good! ! ! !
>
> I've received an E mail that explains Tom's obsession with trying to
> discredit me. The message said that Tom is desperate to be the man who
> solved the mystery surrounding the assassination. He's totally
> unqualified for that role because his brain is weak. He hates
> anybody who he perceives as a threat to his glory.
>
> I never thought of that....but It sure makes sense.
> More "GHOST" Sources Wally?????
>
> Were all of your other Lies from "GHOST" Sources Wally????
>
> Is that WHY you RUN from your own Bullshit LIES???
Hmmmmm.... Notice the senile old pervert doesn't deny the allegation.
>
> Your own Lying posts is what "Discredits" you>>>
>
> You never proved that 133-a had "Dual Sling Mounts".
> When are you gonna Prove that LHO worked for RFK???
> You never proved that Walker called Germany.
> You never proved Oswald ordered a 40 inch rifle.
> You never proved Mike Paine gave the DOD a copy of 133-a on 11/22/63.
> You never proved the wallet was found "INSIDE" the owner's car.
> You never proved Michael Paine had same model rifle.
> You never proved Walker believed LHO shot at him.
> You never proved that Capt O A Jones said LHO shot AT Walker.
> You never proved that the bullet recovered from Walker shooting was copper
> jacketed.
> You never proved LHO received a 40 minch rifle.
> You never proved your claim that LHO shot at Walker.
> You never proved that LHO ordered a 40 inch rifle.
> You never proved your claim that LHOI altered the chin in CE-133-a.
> You never proved your claim that a 6.5 was fired from a "sabot".
> You never proved your claim that the CIA was gonna "rescue Oswald".
> You never proved your claim that the DPD showed Weitzman a Mauser on
> 11/22/63.
>
> You're a Warren Commission Shill! ! !
>
> I got an e-mail stating that you Slept with J Edgar Hoover. (see how it
> works?)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
works?)
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:d02cbe1c-ffdc-4932...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Walt
> On 19 Oct, 12:42, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > MORE "Speculation" from Wally to make the WCR look Good! ! ! !
Hey you senile old idiot, .... Would it tax yer feeble old shriveled
brain too heavily to explain how my explanation of how Oswald was
photographed with a MC that is NOT the TSBD rifle, .."Makes the Warren
Commission look good"?
This explanation coming from a diseased brain ought to be
hilarious.......Oh BTW...you CAN show how that explanation "makes the
WC look good" can't you Pervert?
>
> I've received an E mail that explains Tom's obsession with trying to
> discredit me. The message said that Tom is desperate to be the man who
> solved the mystery surrounding the assassination. He's totally
> unqualified for that role because his brain is weak. He hates
> anybody who he perceives as a threat to his glory.
>
> I never thought of that....but It sure makes sense.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
> On 19 Oct, 12:42, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > MORE "Speculation" from Wally to make the WCR look Good! ! ! !
>
> I've received an E mail that explains Tom's obsession with trying to
> discredit me. The message said that Tom is desperate to be the man who
> solved the mystery surrounding the assassination. He's totally
> unqualified for that role because his brain is weak. He hates
> anybody who he perceives as a threat to his glory.
This is the claim Walt makes of any CTer who doesn't agree with him.
We all have big egos and want to "solve the case" ourselves, meanwhile
this guy has built a cardboard box to play with!
Walt attacks any CTer who is too good at pointing out the weak
"evidence" presented by the WC, I wonder why he does that?
Sssshhhhhhh.
> I never thought of that....but It sure makes sense.
You haven't thought of A LOT OF THINGS, and it seems only the WC's
take on things make sense to you.
Walt
wrote:
> On Oct 19, 4:48 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > On 19 Oct, 12:42, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > MORE "Speculation" from Wally to make the WCR look Good! ! ! !
>
> > I've received an E mail that explains Tom's obsession with trying to
> > discredit me. The message said that Tom is desperate to be the man who
> > solved the mystery surrounding the assassination. He's totally
> > unqualified for that role because his brain is weak. He hates
> > anybody who he perceives as a threat to his glory.
>
> This is the claim Walt makes of any CTer who doesn't agree with him.
> We all have big egos and want to "solve the case" ourselves, meanwhile
> this guy has built a cardboard box to play with!
>
> Walt attacks any CTer who is too good at pointing out the weak
> "evidence" presented by the WC, I wonder why he does that?
Walt attacks any CTer who is too good at pointing out the weak
"evidence" presented by the WC, I wonder why he does that?
With all due respect Mr. Caprio....... I believe that you may be
mistaken. I can't recall EVER attacking anybody who points out any of
the "weak evidence" and outright lies of the Warren Commission.
Apparently you believe that I have attacked someone who was presenting
a good, sound, rational, and FACTUAL rebuttal to the Warren
Commission's BS.
Would you please present the post where you think I attacked someone
who was presenting FACTUAL information in a rebuttal to WC.
robcap...@netscape.com
Start with the clip Mr. Cakebread, as there is NO record of a clip
being found with the MC by the DPD (and I mean the initial time it was
recovered, not hours later when it was photographed leaving the
building).
Walt
>
> - Show quoted text -
Start with the clip Mr. Cakebread, as there is NO record of a clip
being found with the MC by the DPD (and I mean the initial time it
was
recovered, not hours later when it was photographed leaving the
building).
First off let's establish a couple of facts...
Was the photo of Lt Day leaving the TSBD taken "Hours later " or was
it taken less than an hour after it was discover BURIED BENEATH boxes
of book at 1:22pm?
Secondly....Are you willing to accept the reality that I'm pretty
well
educated about Mannlicher Carcano rifles?
AND most important.... If I decide to debate you on the clip issue,
Do you promise to stick to that issue...and not wander off into some
other area?
robcap...@netscape.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm NOT debating you Walt, let's get that clear up front as I am
repsonding to your statement. Your statement was....
> > > With all due respect Mr. Caprio....... I believe that you may be
> > > mistaken. **I can't recall EVER attacking anybody who points out any of
> > > the "weak evidence" and outright lies of the Warren Commission.**
> > > Apparently you believe that I have attacked someone who was presenting
> > > a good, sound, rational, and FACTUAL rebuttal to the Warren
> > > Commission's BS.
The clip issue is one of these. The WC offered NO proof that it was
IN the rifle when it was found, but you claim it was. You attacked me
relentlessly for this. NOW, proove it was IN the rifle when they
found it in the TSBD. I want documentation from the DPD showing it
was part of the rifle at discovery.
Your knowlege of Carcano's has NOTHING to do with this at all, you
have to use "evidence" the WC and DPD provided to prove it was IN the
rife at the time of discovery.
Good luck!
Once you solved this one (that even the WC couldn't solve) we can move
onto the 40" Carcano.
tomnln
On 19 Oct, 17:11, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message
>
> news:ec3bc84e-54df-49db...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On 19 Oct, 12:42, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > MORE "Speculation" from Wally to make the WCR look Good! ! ! !
Hey you senile old idiot, .... Would it tax yer feeble old shriveled
brain too heavily to explain how my explanation of how Oswald was
photographed with a MC that is NOT the TSBD rifle, .."Makes the Warren
Commission look good"?
This explanation coming from a diseased brain ought to be
hilarious.......Oh BTW...you CAN show how that explanation "makes the
WC look good" can't you Pervert?
I've received an E mail that explains Tom's obsession with trying to
discredit me. The message said that Tom is desperate to be the man who
solved the mystery surrounding the assassination. He's totally
unqualified for that role because his brain is weak. He hates
anybody who he perceives as a threat to his glory.
I never thought of that....but It sure makes sense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I write;
You little Dicky-Licker;
Start with your posts below.
More "GHOST" Sources Wally?????
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt
Right off the bat ...you assume something that is NOT factual. I
NEVER claimed that the clip was in the rifle (becuause it's NOT
provable) HOWEVER I do BELIEVE the preponderance of the evidence
indicates that it was in the rifle. My knowledge of how a MC
operates
along with the photographic RECORD leads me to BELIEVE that the clip
was hung up in the magazine of that rifle when it was found. AND
the
since I believe it was hung up in the Mag it is a very strong
indication that the EMPTYclip was inserted into that magazine from
the
bottom opening after the live round was placed in the chamber. ( Bolt
not latched)
You attacked me relentlessly for this. NOW, proove it was IN the
rifle when they found it in the TSBD.
Sorry you are asking the impossible......Nobody can prove anything
about that clip with the information available today.
I want documentation from the DPD showing it was part of the rifle at
discovery.
As far as I know no documentation either pro or con exists.....
The only record available is the photograph of Lt Day leaving the
TSBD
with the rifle with the clip hanging part way out of the rifle. He
seems blissfully unaware that he's about to lose that clip, and a
vital piece of evidence that could well contain fingerprints.
If you won't accept that record .....there's nothing more I can tell
you.
You attacked me
> relentlessly for this. NOW, proove it was IN the rifle when they
> found it in the TSBD. I want documentation from the DPD showing it
> was part of the rifle at discovery.
>
> Your knowlege of Carcano's has NOTHING to do with this at all, you
> have to use "evidence" the WC and DPD provided to prove it was IN the
> rife at the time of discovery.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Once you solved this one (that even the WC couldn't solve) we can move
> onto the 40" Carcano.- Hide quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
> provable)
Walt, you are lying, just admit it, don't make me go back through the
archives to prove it. I have the NG burns to show this was YOUR claim
last year when I made the "mistake" of posting an article about it.
You and your cohort, Barb J., said it was IN the rifle at the time of
discovery and it was a "dead issue."
> HOWEVER I do BELIEVE the preponderance of the evidence
> indicates that it was in the rifle.
Good for you, NOW how about listing some of this evidence for us?
> My knowledge of how a MC operates
> along with the photographic RECORD leads me to BELIEVE that the clip
> was hung up in the magazine of that rifle when it was found.
What causes it to "hang"?
> AND the
> since I believe it was hung up in the Mag it is a very strong
> indication that the EMPTYclip was inserted into that magazine from the
> bottom opening after the live round was placed in the chamber. ( Bolt
> not latched)
Great, now that we have your ASSUMPTIONS out of the way, how about
some proof?
> You attacked me relentlessly for this. NOW, proove it was IN the
> rifle when they found it in the TSBD.
>
> Sorry you are asking the impossible......Nobody can prove anything
> about that clip with the information available today.
So why did you attack me for 3 weeks last November and call in Barg
and "ABW" for help?
> I want documentation from the DPD showing it was part of the rifle at
> discovery.
>
> As far as I know no documentation either pro or con exists.....
"Con" is a non-factor, as it would prove what is not being asserted,
which is it was IN the rifle at the time of the discovery. Therefore,
you have to provide "Pro" to prove your claim. Can you provide proof
it was INSIDE the M-C at the time of discovery?
If not, I want an apology for the torment you put me through last year
as this was your contention then (the clip definitely being inside the
rifle at time of discovery).
> The only record available is the photograph of Lt Day leaving the TSBD
> with the rifle with the clip hanging part way out of the rifle. He
> seems blissfully unaware that he's about to lose that clip, and a
> vital piece of evidence that could well contain fingerprints.
But of course it did NOT contain any fingerprints. How could LHO
handle the clip without leaving a single fingerprint?
Now, your expertise of Carcanos can help here, I have read the clip
can become more apt to malfunction if all six rounds are not it, and
this can lead to misfires. Has your experience shown this to be true
or false?
> If you won't accept that record .....there's nothing more I tell you.
I accept this as you are finally admitting the truth, BUT last year
you acted like the FACTS were totally different. You attacked me for
making this claim that the WC's evidence was wrong and they were lying
about the clip. Thus your claim of NEVER attacking anyone for doing
this is just another lie.
When I first came here I thought you would be a really great source of
knowledge for me, but your inablility to tolerate any differing views
was the first indication I was wrong. Now we see you are willing to
lie just to support your wild ideas.
Walt
No Rob.... The expression "neither pro or con" means... I can't
absolutely and without any doubt prove it was in the rifle .... and
you can't prove that it was NOT. It's not a positive equation like 2+
2 =4
However.... an intelligent conclusion can be drawn by knowing the
FACTS.
>
> If not, I want an apology for the torment you put me through last year
> as this was your contention then (the clip definitely being inside the
> rifle at time of discovery).
Rob ...you tormented yourself.... By being stubborn and stupid.
>
> > The only record available is the photograph of Lt Day leaving the TSBD
> > with the rifle with the clip hanging part way out of the rifle. He
> > seems blissfully unaware that he's about to lose that clip, and a
> > vital piece of evidence that could well contain fingerprints.
>
> But of course it did NOT contain any fingerprints.
How do you KNOW that it didn't hold any prints?? Are you accepting
the word of the authorities.
Need I remind you that those same authoroties said that there were no
finger prints found on the side of JD tippits car at the place the
killer would have rested his hand while talking through the window to
Tippit?
How could LHO handle the clip without leaving a single fingerprint?
Huh?????? Who said the "nonexistant prints" were LHO's????
>
> Now, your expertise of Carcanos can help here, I have read the clip
> can become more apt to malfunction if all six rounds are not it, and
> this can lead to misfires. Has your experience shown this to be true
> or false?
Somewhat true.... It depends a lot on the condition of the ammo, the
clip, and the rifle.
The MC doesn't have the best feed system in the world and the last
round in a clip is prone to jamming. particularly if the ammo isn't
clean and shiney and the rifle is somewhat worn.
>
> > If you won't accept that record .....there's nothing more I tell you.
>
> I accept this as you are finally admitting the truth, BUT last year
> you acted like the FACTS were totally different. You attacked me for
> making this claim that the WC's evidence was wrong and they were lying
> about the clip.
Not true Rob....I could see at the time that you were NOT paying
attention and did NOT understand my position.
But what made it worse you wouldn't listen to anybody who tried to
educate you about how the clip is expelled from the rifle.
Thus your claim of NEVER attacking anyone for doing
> this is just another lie.
>
> When I first came here I thought you would be a really great source of
> knowledge for me, but your inablility to tolerate any differing views
> was the first indication I was wrong.
You are correct....I will not abide a pigheaded idiot.... who is way
off base, and argues with the umpire, that he's still safe on base.
Now we see you are willing to lie just to support your wild ideas.
Rob let me tell you something....Only a complete idiot would lie about
the evidence in this case. Because Lying is self defeating. This
isn't the first time I've posted this statement....It's been my
attitude about this case since day# 1
Walt
vital piece of evidence that could well contain fingerprints. .....
If
you won't accept that record .....there's nothing more I tell you.
Rob replied:
I accept this as you are finally admitting the truth,
Ok Thank you for your response.... Now can you tell me approximately
what time Lt Day left the TSBD with that rifle?? Was it HOURS later?
>
> - Hide quoted text -
>
>
>
>
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Walt wrote: My knowledge of how a MC operates along with the
photographic RECORD leads me to BELIEVE that the clip was hung up in
the magazine of that rifle when it was found.
Rob challenged:
What causes it to "hang"?
Rob, It's a phenomenom known as F-R-I-C-T-I-O-N. The inside surface
of the magazine of the Carcano that was found BURIED BENEATH boxes of
books was rough cast and dirty. When a clip is inserted from the
bottom of the magazine ( not the normal way the clip is put into the
rifle.) through the opening in the bottom of the mag it has nothing
to
guide it and as a consequence it can lodge in a position where it
will
not fall out of the rifle without a concerted effort. It's kinda
like
trying to get a coin out of a piggy bank. If the piggy bank isn't
completely upside down, the coin will not fall out of the coin slot
even if it is aligned with the slot. Even if the coin will come part
way out of the slot it may hang up on the sides of the slot if the
piggy bank is tipped from vertical.
The clip seen hanging part way out of the rifle in the photo is an
excellent example of an object stuck about halfway out of an opening.
Since the clip is pretty light and has many surfaces that can catch
on
the dirty rough surface inside the mag it can easily hang up inside
that magazine.
> lie just to support your wild ideas.- Hide quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
Sure we can prove it was NOT in the rifle as NONE of the evidence and
logs show any clip was found with the rifle. Now you may want to
IGNORE this fact, but I don't.
> However.... an intelligent conclusion can be drawn by knowing the
> FACTS.
Like the one above you IGNORE?
> > If not, I want an apology for the torment you put me through last year
> > as this was your contention then (the clip definitely being inside the
> > rifle at time of discovery).
>
> Rob ...you tormented yourself.... By being stubborn and stupid.
NO, you insisted the clip was IN the rifle Walt, now almost a year
later you are finally admitting you CAN'T PROVE IT!! You are here to
chase away CTers who seem to be on the ball, that is your role.
> > > The only record available is the photograph of Lt Day leaving the TSBD
> > > with the rifle with the clip hanging part way out of the rifle. He
> > > seems blissfully unaware that he's about to lose that clip, and a
> > > vital piece of evidence that could well contain fingerprints.
>
> > But of course it did NOT contain any fingerprints.
>
> How do you KNOW that it didn't hold any prints?? Are you accepting
> the word of the authorities.
> Need I remind you that those same authoroties said that there were no
> finger prints found on the side of JD tippits car at the place the
> killer would have rested his hand while talking through the window to
> Tippit?
Walt still doesn't get it does he??? He is like all LNers - confused.
See Walt, when a "Patsy" is selected and you frame them with fake
evidence you do NOT hold back all the "evidence" you can find. This
is the point the LNers fail to grasp as they think we believe the
authorities when it suits us, but say they are lying when it doesn't.
NO, the reason I believe them when they flatly say they found no
fingerprints of LHO on any part of the rifle, clip or bullets/casings
is because they ONLY did this when they knew a lie would be caught
immediately. They only exonnerated LHO of things when they definitely
thought they could not get away with a lie, otherwise, they hanged on
the phony stuff on him. Hoover's memo mentioned NO fingerprints on
the clip, he would NOT say this unless he knew it was either true, or
he knew a lie would be caught. Their goal was to frame LHO, so
whenever they said something did NOT point to him you have to believe
it as it went against their goal/mission.
> How could LHO handle the clip without leaving a single fingerprint?
>
> Huh?????? Who said the "nonexistant prints" were LHO's????
You are confused. I am asking how LHO could handle the clip as the
LNers say and NOT leave a single print on it.
> > Now, your expertise of Carcanos can help here, I have read the clip
> > can become more apt to malfunction if all six rounds are not it, and
> > this can lead to misfires. Has your experience shown this to be true
> > or false?
>
> Somewhat true.... It depends a lot on the condition of the ammo, the
> clip, and the rifle.
>
> The MC doesn't have the best feed system in the world and the last
> round in a clip is prone to jamming. particularly if the ammo isn't
> clean and shiney and the rifle is somewhat worn.
I ask because LHO allegedly ONLY put four bullets in the clip instead
of 6, thus the possibility of problems. Why not just add the other
two bullets to be safer? Of course once the first shot is fired you
have the same issue, and this is really my point, why use such a iffy
weapon?
> > > If you won't accept that record .....there's nothing more I tell you.
>
> > I accept this as you are finally admitting the truth, BUT last year
> > you acted like the FACTS were totally different. You attacked me for
> > making this claim that the WC's evidence was wrong and they were lying
> > about the clip.
>
> Not true Rob....I could see at the time that you were NOT paying
> attention and did NOT understand my position.
> But what made it worse you wouldn't listen to anybody who tried to
> educate you about how the clip is expelled from the rifle.
It doesn't really matter in terms of the the issue of whether there
was a clip in it when found or not, does it? You wasted all that time
on something that really didn't matter. Instead you ignored the claim
of the WC that is was dented so it jammed in the rifle. This is bull
as every picture in official evidence of the clip (Time/Life stuff
too) shows the clip in mint condition.
How did it jam in the rifle? The WC lied and never gave a real
reason, but we know from the evidence this is all a moot point anyway,
as it was NOT in the rifle when it was found.
> Thus your claim of NEVER attacking anyone for doing
>
> > this is just another lie.
>
> > When I first came here I thought you would be a really great source of
> > knowledge for me, but your inablility to tolerate any differing views
> > was the first indication I was wrong.
>
> You are correct....I will not abide a pigheaded idiot.... who is way
> off base, and argues with the umpire, that he's still safe on base.
So, how do you tolerate yourself?
> Now we see you are willing to lie just to support your wild ideas.
>
> Rob let me tell you something....Only a complete idiot would lie about
> the evidence in this case. Because Lying is self defeating. This
> isn't the first time I've posted this statement....It's been my
> attitude about this case since day# 1
Walt, you are lying, or you are so "pig-headed" that you won't admit
your theories are way off base and stop attacking others who don't
agree with you.
robcap...@netscape.com
Which "photographic" record are your refering to?
> Rob challenged:
> What causes it to "hang"?
>
> Rob, It's a phenomenom known as F-R-I-C-T-I-O-N. The inside surface
> of the magazine of the Carcano that was found BURIED BENEATH boxes of
> books was rough cast and dirty. When a clip is inserted from the
> bottom of the magazine ( not the normal way the clip is put into the
> rifle.) through the opening in the bottom of the mag it has nothing
> to
> guide it and as a consequence it can lodge in a position where it
> will
> not fall out of the rifle without a concerted effort. It's kinda
> like
> trying to get a coin out of a piggy bank. If the piggy bank isn't
> completely upside down, the coin will not fall out of the coin slot
> even if it is aligned with the slot. Even if the coin will come part
> way out of the slot it may hang up on the sides of the slot if the
> piggy bank is tipped from vertical.
>
> The clip seen hanging part way out of the rifle in the photo is an
> excellent example of an object stuck about halfway out of an opening.
There is NO proof for this though, and while it sounds logical it was
NOT even the reason given by the WC, they simply said the clip was
dented so that is why it remained in the rifle.
You have said already you can't prove this so please don't get mad if
I don't agree with it.
> Since the clip is pretty light and has many surfaces that can catch
> on
> the dirty rough surface inside the mag it can easily hang up inside
> that magazine.
Again, this is NOT the reason the WC gave for the clip remaining
inside the weapon. Let's not forget NO DPD or Sheriff's department
officer saw any clip in the M-C when it was found.
You skipped everything else, why?
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Help!! I can't untangle this jumble.... What the hell are you
bnabbling about??
> NO, the reason I believe them when they flatly say they found no
> fingerprints of LHO on any part of the rifle, clip or bullets/casings
> is because they ONLY did this when they knew a lie would be caught
> immediately. They only exonnerated LHO of things when they definitely
> thought they could not get away with a lie, otherwise, they hanged on
> the phony stuff on him. Hoover's memo mentioned NO fingerprints on
> the clip, he would NOT say this unless he knew it was either true, or
> he knew a lie would be caught. Their goal was to frame LHO, so
> whenever they said something did NOT point to him you have to believe
> it as it went against their goal/mission.
>
> > How could LHO handle the clip without leaving a single fingerprint?
>
> > Huh?????? Who said the "nonexistant prints" were LHO's????
>
> You are confused. I am asking how LHO could handle the clip as the
> LNers say and NOT leave a single print on it.
Hey Rob.... I'm going to revert to a more apt name for you... Stupid
Bastard..
NOBODY could handle the clip without gloves without leaving prints.
If there were prints found you can bet they were NOT Oswald's (for
obviously if LHO's prints had been found they would have broadcast
that with bullhorns) If there no prints found that might indicate
that someone other than Oswald had handled the rifle and clip and
wiped it clean. Remeber Osweald had left a clear paper trail that led
right to him when he bought that rifle (Without a clip or ammo) so why
would he suddenly decide to wipe tany prints off the rifle and
clip???
>
> > > Now, your expertise of Carcanos can help here, I have read the clip
> > > can become more apt to malfunction if all six rounds are not it, and
> > > this can lead to misfires. Has your experience shown this to be true
> > > or false?
>
> > Somewhat true.... It depends a lot on the condition of the ammo, the
> > clip, and the rifle.
>
> > The MC doesn't have the best feed system in the world and the last
> > round in a clip is prone to jamming. particularly if the ammo isn't
> > clean and shiney and the rifle is somewhat worn.
>
> I ask because ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Jesus H Christ on a skateboard!!!..... I can guaranty that I know a
lot more about Carcanos than the Warren Commission. They had their
head up their asses just like you..... So they SPECULATED ...
Let's not forget NO DPD or Sheriff's department officer saw any clip
in the M-C when it was found.
Oh for Christ's sake!! Which one of those cops even knew what kind
of gun it was??????? How the hell would any of those cops have known
what they were looking at even if it had been hanging halfway out as
it is seen in the photo of Dat carrying it in front of the TSBD.
> You skipped everything else, why?
What else?? I told you to stck to the subject ( the clip)
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Rob asdked:
Which "photographic" record are your refering to?
I don't believe this is an honest question because he and I have
already talked about the ONLY photograhic record there is.... the
photos of the clip hanging about halfway out of the rifle as Day was
carrying it from the TSBD.
Here's what I posted a couple of hours BEFORE Rob asked Which
Photographic record?
Walt: "The only record available is the photograph of Lt Day leaving
the TSBD with the rifle with the clip hanging part way out of the
rifle. He seems blissfully unaware that he's about to lose that clip,
and a vital piece of evidence that could well contain fingerprints.
Because of his inability to stay focus Rob 's attention was
diverted....and he replied:
Rob: "But of course it did NOT contain any fingerprints. How could
LHO handle the clip without leaving a single fingerprint?"
Then his befuddled brain drifted further from the subjest...
Rob: Now, your expertise of Carcanos can help here, I have read the
clip can become more apt to malfunction if all six rounds are not it,
and this can lead to misfires. Has your experience shown this to be
true or false?
Before Rob drifted off the subject I had said:
Walt: If you won't accept that record (the photos of Day leaving the
TSBD with the rifle).....there's nothing more I tell you.
Rob later replied: I accept this ( the photographic record) as you
are finally admitting the truth,
Now in this later post Rob asks: Which "photographic" record are
your refering to?
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Walt
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message
Hey you senile old idiot, .... Would it tax yer feeble old shriveled
tomnln
#1 you AIDS Distributor;
I think it's a Felony when you dispense your body fluids in Public.
#2 THESE Asshole Lying Bastard Comments from you make the WCR look good>>>
You never proved that 133-a had "Dual Sling Mounts".
When are you gonna Prove that LHO worked for RFK???
You never proved that Walker called Germany.
You never proved Oswald ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved Mike Paine gave the DOD a copy of 133-a on 11/22/63.
You never proved the wallet was found "INSIDE" the owner's car.
You never proved Michael Paine had same model rifle.
You never proved Walker believed LHO shot at him.
You never proved that Capt O A Jones said LHO shot AT Walker.
You never proved that the bullet recovered from Walker shooting was copper
jacketed.
You never proved LHO received a 40 minch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHO shot at Walker.
You never proved that LHO ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHOI altered the chin in CE-133-a.
You never proved your claim that a 6.5 was fired from a "sabot".
You never proved your claim that the CIA was gonna "rescue Oswald".
You never proved your claim that the DPD showed Weitzman a Mauser on
11/22/63.
You're a Warren Commission Shill! ! !
They're ALL HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
And, you're STILL Runnin from them ! ! !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tomnln
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:2482c076-39d1-4183...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WALLY WROTE;
Jesus H Christ on a skateboard!!!..... I can guaranty that I know a
lot more about Carcanos than the Warren Commission. They had their
head up their asses just like you..... So they SPECULATED ...
I write;
You don't even know if the receiver is on the Stock OR, the barrel ! ! !
(Lyin Stupid Bastard)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt
Ok Rob, now that I've got you scrambled brain re-focused for the
third time........
The photographic record shows Lt John Carl Day leaving the TSBD less
than an hour after the rifle was found BURIED BENEATH boxes of books
on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Several of the news photographers who
had gathered outside of the building photographed Day as he carried
the rifle from the building. Many of those photographs show a ammo
clip sticking out of the opening in the magazine on the bottom of the
rifle.
The FACT that the clip is there, in the fashion it is seen in the
photos is VERY strong evidence that it had been in the rifle from the
moment the rifle was discovered beneath the boxes of books. Anybody
who has personal experience with a Mannlicher Carcano can attest to
the roughness of the inside of the magazine. ( it is a place on the
rifle that get's neglected in routine cleaning, so it becomes corroded
and dirty) That dirty rough surface inside the magazine is a high
friction area and if a ammo clip ( 2 oz?) is inserted into the opening
in the magazine it can easily become lodged in the magazine.
I suspect that is exactly what happened in the case of the TSBD
rifle. Someone tried to load the rifle as a single shot rifle (the
way it's possible with most other bolt action rifles), by dropping a
live cartridge into the chamber of the rifle. The MC CANNOT be used
as a single shot rifle in this manner, and when that someone tried to
close the bolt the bolt jammed and would not slide down to the latched
closed position. (The bolt can be seen in that jammed position in the
video of the rifle being lifted from the boxes) After jamming the bolt
on the rifle the person then inserted the empty clip into that opening
on the bottom of the magazine, where it became lodged.
When Day and Fritz picked up and examined the rifle they handled it
very carefully and gently and the clip stayed stuck in the magazine.
Somewhere along the way in his examination, or transportation of the
rifle Day had the rifle in the normal magazine down position and
bumped the rifle hard enough to dislodge the clip and it slid part way
out of the opening. He wasn't even aware of that clip hanging
precariously from the magazine when he left the TSBD, where the
photographers took the photos.
Walt
Rob I didn't call in anybody...... I can handle my own fights, thank
you.
I want documentation from the DPD showing it was part of the rifle
at discovery.
So you want documentation that shows that water doesn't naturally flow
up hill.... Are you serious??
robcap...@netscape.com
First let me respond to the previous comment by Walt (I don't have
unlimited posting capability like him) where he is totally confused as
to what I was saying. Here it is in plain English: It was NOT in the
interest of the authorities to ADMIT they had NO evidence on LHO in
any parts of the case, thus when Hoover said there were NO
fingerprints of LHO on the clip, et. al. he was saying this because
there weren't any and he knew a lie would be caught if he said there
were.
Up to speed now?
> I don't believe this is an honest question because he and I have
> already talked about the ONLY photograhic record there is.... the
> photos of the clip hanging about halfway out of the rifle as Day was
> carrying it from the TSBD.
You are wrong as Alyea has shots of the Carcano too, and many have
studied these frames and they see NO clip in the rifle. Only when it
it is removed from the building do you see a clip, and as you have
pointed out it was not even put in all the way. I wanted to see if
you were going to mention this or not.
> Here's what I posted a couple of hours BEFORE Rob asked Which
> Photographic record?
>
> Walt: "The only record available is the photograph of Lt Day leaving
> the TSBD with the rifle with the clip hanging part way out of the
> rifle. He seems blissfully unaware that he's about to lose that clip,
> and a vital piece of evidence that could well contain fingerprints.
What about the Alyea film?
> Because of his inability to stay focus Rob 's attention was
> diverted....and he replied:
I wasn't UNFOCUSED, but rather testing you to see if you would be
honest, and you weren't.
> Rob: "But of course it did NOT contain any fingerprints. How could
> LHO handle the clip without leaving a single fingerprint?"
>
> Then his befuddled brain drifted further from the subjest...
Why did you NOT mention the Alyea film? Why did you act like the ONLY
available photograhic record is the photo as the rifle is taken from
the building?
> Rob: Now, your expertise of Carcanos can help here, I have read the
> clip can become more apt to malfunction if all six rounds are not it,
> and this can lead to misfires. Has your experience shown this to be
> true or false?
>
> Before Rob drifted off the subject I had said:
>
> Walt: If you won't accept that record (the photos of Day leaving the
> TSBD with the rifle).....there's nothing more I tell you.
IT is NOT the ONLY record, why are you being dishonest yet again?
> Rob later replied: I accept this ( the photographic record) as you
> are finally admitting the truth,
NO, I said I accept the fact you were admitting there is NO proof for
the clip being in the rifle at the time of discovery!!!!
See folks, he is a LNer, and they ALL lie and distort the record.
> Now in this later post Rob asks: Which "photographic" record are
> your refering to?
And your FLUNKED as you lied and failed to mentio the Alyea film.
Thanks for proving you are a liar yet again.
robcap...@netscape.com
Maybe, but we have to deal with the excuse the WC gave which was it
was DENTED, and there are NO official photos that show it in this
condition. Why are you backtracking and covering for the WC again?
Oh, that's right, because you are a WC shill.
> Again, this is NOT the reason the WC gave for the clip remaining
> inside the weapon.
>
> Jesus H Christ on a skateboard!!!..... I can guaranty that I know a
> lot more about Carcanos than the Warren Commission. They had their
> head up their asses just like you..... So they SPECULATED ...
And their SPECULATION is what we are dealing with, NOT your
SPECULATION of what they meant by their SPECULATION! Prove it was
dented.
> Let's not forget NO DPD or Sheriff's department officer saw any clip
> in the M-C when it was found.
>
> Oh for Christ's sake!! Which one of those cops even knew what kind
> of gun it was??????? How the hell would any of those cops have known
> what they were looking at even if it had been hanging halfway out as
> it is seen in the photo of Dat carrying it in front of the TSBD.
So their highly detailed inventory lists was NOT a place for them to
get familiar with a clip??? There is NO mention of a clip in written
or verbal form by any of them.
> > You skipped everything else, why?
>
> What else?? I told you to stck to the subject ( the clip)
I took the time to answer some of your comments below, and like usual
when you don't like the truth you skip it.
robcap...@netscape.com
This isn't what you said last year, was it???? Now that you have been
exposed for what you are you admit the truth.
> So why did you attack me for 3 weeks last November and call in Barg
> and "ABW" for help?
>
> Rob I didn't call in anybody...... I can handle my own fights, thank
> you.
I would get your handlers involved more as you are NOT doing too well
from where I sit.
> I want documentation from the DPD showing it was part of the rifle
> at discovery.
>
> So you want documentation that shows that water doesn't naturally flow
> up hill.... Are you serious??
Look at the distraction here!!!! The topic of water and a crime scene
investigation have NOTHING in common!! You are bad at this stuff too.
robcap...@netscape.com
real well?????
> photographers ...
Walt
superior to yours....
Rob wrote:
You are wrong as Alyea has shots of the Carcano too, and many have
studied these frames and they see NO clip in the rifle.
The Ayea film was taken BEFORE Day left the TSBD with the rifle. At
the time that Alyea took his video of Day with the Mannlicher Carcano
that clip WAS NOT VISIBLE ....It was hung up INSIDE the magazine.
Only when it it is removed from the building do you see a clip, and
as you have pointed out it was not even put in all the way. I wanted
to see if you were going to mention this or not.
Of course I intended to mention it ( and have mentionedit) ...IT"S
WHAT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING ....ya flippin moron!!
Only when it it is removed from the building do you see a clip, and as
you have pointed out it was not even put in all the way.
That's RIGHT and it's entirely with what I would expect if that clip
had been inserted into the opening in the magazine and had got stuck
there.
> > Here's what I posted a couple of hours BEFORE Rob asked Which
> > Photographic record?
>
> > Walt: "The only record available is the photograph of Lt Day leaving
> > the TSBD with the rifle with the clip hanging part way out of the
> > rifle. He seems blissfully unaware that he's about to lose that clip,
> > and a vital piece of evidence that could well contain fingerprints.
>
> What about the Alyea film?
>
> > Because of his inability to stay focus Rob 's attention was
> > diverted....and he replied:
>
> I wasn't UNFOCUSED, but rather testing you to see if you would be
> honest, and you weren't.
>
> > Rob: "But of course it did NOT contain any fingerprints. How could
> > LHO handle the clip without leaving a single fingerprint?"
>
> > Then his befuddled brain drifted further from the subjest...
>
> Why did you NOT mention the Alyea film? Why did you act like the ONLY
> available photograhic record is the photo as the rifle is taken from
> the building?
Jesus H. Chirst on a skateboard.... Were talkin about the photos of
Day leaving the TSBD!!!
It's a foregone conclusion that NO CLIP IS VISIBLE in the photos that
were taken on the sixth floor of the TSBD.
That DOES NOT mean there was no clip....IT means the clip was NOT
VISIBLE. because it was hung up inside of the magazine.
>
> > Rob: Now, your expertise of Carcanos can help here, I have read the
> > clip can become more apt to malfunction if all six rounds are not it,
> > and this can lead to misfires. Has your experience shown this to be
> > true or false?
>
> > Before Rob drifted off the subject I had said:
>
> > Walt: If you won't accept that record (the photos of Day leaving the
> > TSBD with the rifle).....there's nothing more I tell you.
>
> IT is NOT the ONLY record, why are you being dishonest yet again?
Oh screw you, ya stupid Bastard.... Yer hopeless.
>
> > Rob later replied: I accept this ( the photographic record) as you
> > are finally admitting the truth,
>
> NO, I said I accept the fact you were admitting there is NO proof for
> the clip being in the rifle at the time of discovery!!!!
>
> See folks, he is a LNer, and they ALL lie and distort the record.
>
> > Now in this later post Rob asks: Which "photographic" record are
> > your refering to?
>
> And your FLUNKED as you lied and failed to mentio the Alyea film.
> Thanks for proving you are a liar yet again.
>
>
>
> > > > Rob challenged:
> > > > What causes it to "hang"?
>
> > > > Rob, It's a phenomenom known as F-R-I-C-T-I-O-N. The inside surface
> > > > of the magazine of the Carcano that was found BURIED BENEATH boxes of
> > > > books was rough cast and dirty. When a clip is inserted from the
> > > > bottom of the magazine ( not the normal way the clip is put into the
> > > > rifle.) through the opening in the bottom of the mag it has nothing
> > > > to
> > > > guide it and as a consequence it can lodge in a position where it
> > > > will
> > > > not fall out of the rifle without a concerted effort. It's kinda
> > > > like
> > > > trying to get a coin out of a piggy bank. If the piggy bank isn't
> > > > completely upside down, the coin will not fall out of the coin slot
> > > > even if it is aligned with the slot. Even if the coin will
>
Walt
HUH??? You think I should prove some stupid lie that the WC used??
Are you serious??
The clip certainly was NOT D-E-N-T-E-D.... It MAY? have been
slightly sprung apart but that's not apparent in any photos of the
clip. But the clip can be sprung apart ( widened) or squeezed back
together in the blink of an eye, because it's only made of light guage
brass.
>
> > Let's not forget NO DPD or Sheriff's department officer saw any clip
> > in the M-C when it was found.
>
> > Oh for Christ's sake!! Which one of those cops even knew what kind
> > of gun it was??????? How the hell would any of those cops have known
> > what they were looking at even if it had been hanging halfway out as
> > it is seen in the photo of Dat carrying it in front of the TSBD.
>
> So their highly detailed inventory lists was NOT a place for them to
> get familiar with a clip??? There is NO mention of a clip in written
> or verbal form by any of them.
That's right.... ONLY John Carl Day examined the rifle in Dallas....
NO OTHER COP examined it. Even Day didn't know about the clip when he
left the TSBD....( I'll bet he learned of the presence of that clip
when it fell onto the concrete and made a jangling noise. ) OR it's
possible that the clip fell completely out of the rifle and was never
ever noticed by Day. When the newsphotos were examined and that clip
was seen in the photos someone may have asked Day what happened to the
clip. Since he had lost it and they needed one they may simply have
went and bought some ammo with a clip so they would have a clip
( Don't know, but it's a possibilty)
>
> > > You skipped everything else, why?
>
> > What else?? I told you to stck to the subject ( the clip)
>
> I took the time to answer some of your comments below, and like usual
> when you don't like the truth you skip it.
No Rob.... I'm only too happy to debate any point you bring
up....HOWEVER You must stick to one subject...
In this case we are discussing the presence or absence of the
ammunition clip.
Don't try to change the subject...Just stick to the subject and then
we'll move on...
>
>
>
> > > > > > AND the
> > > > > > since I believe it was hung up in the Mag it is a very strong
> > > > > > indication that the EMPTYclip was inserted into that magazine from the
> > > > > > bottom opening after the live round was placed in the chamber. ( Bolt
> > > > > > not latched)
>
> > > > > Great, now that we have your ASSUMPTIONS out of the way, how about
> > > > > some proof?
>
> > > > > > You attacked me relentlessly for this. NOW, proove it was IN the
> > > > > > rifle when they found it in the TSBD.
>
> > > > > > Sorry you are asking the impossible......Nobody can prove anything
> > > > > > about that clip with the information available today.
>
> > > > > So why did you attack me for 3 weeks last November and call in Barg
> > > > > and "ABW" for help?
>
> > > > > > I want documentation from the DPD showing it
>
robcap...@netscape.com
Don't tell me about conversations with yourself!
I like how he LIES, and I have reasoning issues!! LOL!!!
> Rob wrote:
>
> You are wrong as Alyea has shots of the Carcano too, and many have
> studied these frames and they see NO clip in the rifle.
>
> The Ayea film was taken BEFORE Day left the TSBD with the rifle. At
> the time that Alyea took his video of Day with the Mannlicher Carcano
> that clip WAS NOT VISIBLE ....It was hung up INSIDE the magazine.
This is what you say, how do you PROVE this statement? It is clearly
NOT visible is it? Yet you act like this film never existed, why?
> Only when it it is removed from the building do you see a clip, and
> as you have pointed out it was not even put in all the way. I wanted
> to see if you were going to mention this or not.
I DIDN'T say what is the ONLY photographic record for SEEING the clip,
but rather what is the photographic record. And you did what comes
naturally to you - YOU LIED.
> Of course I intended to mention it ( and have mentionedit) ...IT"S
> WHAT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING ....ya flippin moron!!
You did NOT mention it when I asked for the context of what you
consider the photographic record to be. Remember, all folks interested
can go back to a few posts earlier in this thread like this:
Now in this later post Rob asks: Which "photographic" record are
your refering to? (Walt)
Ok Rob, now that I've got you scrambled brain re-focused for the
third time........ (Walt)
**The photographic record shows Lt John Carl Day leaving the TSBD
less
than an hour after the rifle was found BURIED BENEATH boxes of books
on the sixth floor of the TSBD.** Several of the news photographers
who
had gathered outside of the building photographed Day as he carried
the rifle from the building. Many of those photographs show a ammo
clip sticking out of the opening in the magazine on the bottom of the
rifle. (Walt)
There are two more paragraphs and the Alyea film is NOT mentioned at
all. You had another post and again the Alyea film is NOT mentioned.
You are trying to distort the record. He even said this and it is
listed below:
> > > Walt: "The only record available is the photograph of Lt Day leaving
> > > the TSBD with the rifle with the clip hanging part way out of the
> > > rifle. He seems blissfully unaware that he's about to lose that clip,
> > > and a vital piece of evidence that could well contain fingerprints.
Again, he is stating the Lt. Day photo is the ONLY photographic record
of the clip, he is lying yet again. He again fails to mention the
Alyea film shots of the Carcano that show NO clip.
Tom, I think we have a NEW one to add to the list of lies.
> Only when it it is removed from the building do you see a clip, and as
> you have pointed out it was not even put in all the way.
>
> That's RIGHT and it's entirely with what I would expect if that clip
> had been inserted into the opening in the magazine and had got stuck
> there.
What caused it to be stuck??? The WC said it was DENTED, but there are
NO dents on the clip at the National Archives.
They lied, and Walt is lying.
Walt
Oh GROAN..... Damnit Rob do you remember that I made an analogy, and
I used the characterisics of water as a simple example of
NONSENSE..... I said that all ideas should be examined for validity,
BUT If some screwbaal proposed thar water flowed up hill ...then It
should be demonstrated the idea was ridiculous and discarded and
forgotten.
I guess I should have known that you are too damned dumb to understnd
the analogy and I should have replied differently to your stupid
whining plea of ..." I want documentation from the DPD showing it was
part of the rifle at discovery."
I guess I should have kept in mind that I was not talkin to an
intelligent person....And I should have said :
Rob, there IS NO documentation other that the photographic record. You
are asking for something impossible like proof that water doesn't
naturally flow uphill
robcap...@netscape.com
NO, I am saying this was their claim, and it is the official record
that has to be refuted, NOT your claims. You are adding claims to
theirs, why you are doing this can only be read as you are a WC
shill.
> The clip certainly was NOT D-E-N-T-E-D.... It MAY? have been
> slightly sprung apart but that's not apparent in any photos of the
> clip. But the clip can be sprung apart ( widened) or squeezed back
> together in the blink of an eye, because it's only made of light guage
> brass.
Yes, and because of heat, the point is there was NO clip with the
rifle at the time of discovery, period.
> > > Let's not forget NO DPD or Sheriff's department officer saw any clip
> > > in the M-C when it was found.
>
> > > Oh for Christ's sake!! Which one of those cops even knew what kind
> > > of gun it was??????? How the hell would any of those cops have known
> > > what they were looking at even if it had been hanging halfway out as
> > > it is seen in the photo of Dat carrying it in front of the TSBD.
>
> > So their highly detailed inventory lists was NOT a place for them to
> > get familiar with a clip??? There is NO mention of a clip in written
> > or verbal form by any of them.
>
> That's right.... ONLY John Carl Day examined the rifle in Dallas....
> NO OTHER COP examined it. Even Day didn't know about the clip when he
> left the TSBD....( I'll bet he learned of the presence of that clip
> when it fell onto the concrete and made a jangling noise. ) OR it's
> possible that the ...
This doesn't cut it, as he is the one who examined it but the rifle
would have been given to the other officers for inventory evidence,
and there is NO mention of a clip at all. The ONLY thing that shows a
clip is that one picture of Day leaving the building. NOTHING else
references a clip in the slightest.
tomnln
O K WALLY;
Post the e-mail ! ! !
Or, is this "claim" just Another Lie offered by you???
Like these>>>
You never proved that 133-a had "Dual Sling Mounts".
When are you gonna Prove that LHO worked for RFK???
You never proved that Walker called Germany.
You never proved Oswald ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved Mike Paine gave the DOD a copy of 133-a on 11/22/63.
You never proved the wallet was found "INSIDE" the owner's car.
You never proved Michael Paine had same model rifle.
You never proved Walker believed LHO shot at him.
You never proved that Capt O A Jones said LHO shot AT Walker.
You never proved that the bullet recovered from Walker shooting was copper
jacketed.
You never proved LHO received a 40 minch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHO shot at Walker.
You never proved that LHO ordered a 40 inch rifle.
You never proved your claim that LHOI altered the chin in CE-133-a.
You never proved your claim that a 6.5 was fired from a "sabot".
You never proved your claim that the CIA was gonna "rescue Oswald".
You never proved your claim that the DPD showed Weitzman a Mauser on
11/22/63.
You're a Warren Commission Shill! ! !
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message
As you now know I was not lying......
>
> Like these>>>
>
> You never proved that 133-a had "Dual Sling Mounts".
> When are you gonna Prove that LHO worked for RFK???
> You never proved that Walker called Germany.
> You never proved Oswald ordered a 40 inchrifle.
> You never proved Mike Paine gave the DOD a copy of 133-a on 11/22/63.
> You never proved the wallet was found "INSIDE" the owner's car.
> You never proved Michael Paine had same modelrifle.
> You never proved Walker believed LHO shot at him.
> You never proved that Capt O A Jones said LHO shot AT Walker.
> You never proved that the bullet recovered from Walker shooting was copper
> jacketed.
> You never proved LHO received a 40 minchrifle.
> You never proved your claim that LHO shot at Walker.
> You never proved that LHO ordered a 40 inchrifle.
> You never proved your claim that LHOI altered the chin in CE-133-a.
> You never proved your claim that a 6.5 was fired from a "sabot".
> You never proved your claim that the CIA was gonna "rescue Oswald".
> You never proved your claim that the DPD showed Weitzman a Mauser on
> 11/22/63.
>
> You're a Warren Commission Shill! ! !
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
THIS TIME
Walt
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
**The photographic record shows Lt John Carl Day leaving the TSBD
Gil Jesus
The through-and-through hole in the windshield seen by the witnesses
The nick in the tie and Kennedy's head turned to the right
The entry hole in the throat
Connally's reaction to a bullet wizzing by his LEFT shoulder
The sound of a firecracker
It's all put together in the following two-part video:
"Wound of Entry"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QLFOzwsYSM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sl6V-0nK3c
FROM A VIEWER:
"You got it right Gil. The large gaping wound that we see in the
President's throat in the "death stare" photo is where they gouged out
the bullet. There was a bullet hole in the front of the limousine
witnessed by many people and photographed. That's why LBJ had the limo
shipped out and stripped down. They even interviewed the guy who put
in a new windshield, he said there was in fact a bullet hole of entry
in the windshield. They had to remove the bullet from JFK before the
autopsy because they knew it had come in the front. And when you look
at the Z film you can plainly see that when that bullet hits K's
throat, C isn't even hit yet, he is still turning around."
Sam McClung
flight
perhaps they were referring to suppressed gunfire
the "firecracker" sounds reported by many is consistent with
suppressed gunfire
in any event, almost all of the witnesses describing the gunfire they
heard did not know what they heard, i.e. suppressed gunfire
starting at 45:00 into this video
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=zapruder%20film%20hoax&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&sa=N&tab=wv#
though i do not agree with much of this video,
(like reymond thinking charles rogers was a french sniper named max),
wiliam reymond discusses a possibility as to why the windshield shot
occurred, the killing zone was moved west on elm due to the limo
making such a wide turn onto elm, and explains the shot going through
the windshield
i believe the person i call "signalwoman" was out in the street
before the limo arrived, and had the zapruder film shown the limo
before it "appears" in front of the tsbd, it would have also shown
signalwoman out in the street further than she is seen
reymond also mentions h.l. hunt having a copy an unaltered original
zapruder film within a few hours of the assassination on 11-22-63
perhpas there were frames removed that show signalwoman out in the
street
if frames were removed, why? to remove evidence of signalwoman? or
evidence of something else?
Gil Jesus
>less than an hour after the rifle was found BURIED BENEATH boxes of books
>on the sixth floor of the TSBD.** Several of the news photographers
>who had gathered outside of the building photographed Day as he carried
>the rifle from the building. Many of those photographs show a ammo
>clip sticking out of the opening in the magazine on the bottom of the
>rifle. (Walt)
Does anyone have any references to those photographs of the clip
sticking out of the Carcano rifle ?
I'm not being a smartass, I'd really like to see them for myself.
Thanks in advance
Walt
I can think of one right off the top of my head....see page 550 in
Pictures of the Pain
Since you are unfamilar with the Mannlicher Carcano let me pin point
that clip sticking out of the magazine on the bottom of the rifle. The
picture in the book measures 3 inches wide and 3 7/8 inches high.
Measure from the left side of the pic over toward the right side of
the pic 1 7/8 inches now measure from the bottom of the pic up 1 5/8
inches. The light colored brass clip can be seen hanging from the
rifle at those coordinates.
There are other photographs taken by other photographers which also
show that clip hanging from the rifle, and I'll see if I can find
them.
>
> Thanks in advance