I am not pursuing a historically accurate revival, and I find the historically appropriate trapezoidal forms quite ungainly.
For a classist feel I recommend extending the terminal in У below the baseline.
Here is a sample from Trajan with an extended У.
Made a drop-terminal version of У and small-caps у for the default cut. The Garamond cut retains the «stainless steel murderspider» look, as orthoxerox called it.
Another type of terminal in У. May be used in lowercase to match the "murderspider".
Your updated Яя looks good.
I'm rather surprised at the tear-shaped central descenders. Shouldn't they match the lateral descenders in Ц etc.? This seems to be the case in many other typefaces.
з l.c.— needs a serif in the bottom, similar to э
б the middle part of the tail should be more horizontally oriented. Reference:
ДдЛЛУу There are two main conventions. Please choose one (for a single stylistic set). Your current solutions for ЛлДд in the default set feel out of place.
1. Garamond-style / Broad nib Cyrillic
2. Didone-style / Pointed nib Cyrillic
Once again, sorry for the late answer. Let me know if you have more questions to proceed further.
Regards,
-a
It is absolutely fine if you don't pursue a historical revival. The main problem as I see it is that you are mixing in Garamond, Bodoni, and Trajan. In Cyrillic you need to stick to one convention — per stylistic set in your case :)
I like how the new terminals in Уу relate to Лл.The Лл represents a modern Didone shape, while /б is an old-fashioned Garamond.
з l.c.— needs a serif in the bottom, similar to э
б the middle part of the tail should be more horizontally oriented.
ДдЛЛУу There are two main conventions. Please choose one (for a single stylistic set). Your current solutions for ЛлДд in the default set feel out of place.
/з is good.
The lowercase /у does not look good.
The proper way to design it would be to 'chop off' the drop, and make it into a straight.
The left /б is good. The Bold one is falling to the left.
I really don't understand this issue. As far as I can tell, I'm faithfully adhering to the architecture of the Bodoni approach with my default cut of ЛлДд (thin stem starts vertical and curves out into a ball terminal, proportions match). The only differences I see are the obvious ones due to the different stress and contrast in Cormorant. I certainly can't have hairlines everywhere like Bodoni, or super-curled terminals.
To my native eyes a mix of two different conventions looks inappropriate, and distracting. Compare the amount of white in /а and /л. It does not feel right, because it isn't backed up by tradition. The 'boneless diagonals' are called trapeziodal, and are traditional for broad-nib structure. I do advise trying out this solution.
I also strongly dislike the boneless diagonals of the traditional Garamond.
The lowercase /у does not look good.
The proper way to design it would be to 'chop off' the drop, and make it into a straight.
I really don't understand this issue. As far as I can tell, I'm faithfully adhering to the architecture of the Bodoni approach with my default cut of ЛлДд (thin stem starts vertical and curves out into a ball terminal, proportions match). The only differences I see are the obvious ones due to the different stress and contrast in Cormorant. I certainly can't have hairlines everywhere like Bodoni, or super-curled terminals.
To my native eyes a mix of two different conventions looks inappropriate, and distracting. Compare the amount of white in /а and /л. It does not feel right, because it isn't backed up by tradition. The 'boneless diagonals' are called trapeziodal, and are traditional for broad-nib structure. I do advise trying out this solution.
I also strongly dislike the boneless diagonals of the traditional Garamond.You can't dislike them before you try them.
The new bold /б looks good.
I think this one looks better, but it's terminal is too large.
This would probably work too. I need to check in text.
Based on your previous suggestions, I chose «Trajan» as the style for Cormorant Garamond and «Bodoni» for Cormorant. In that context, a Bodoni-style shape for /л seems appropriate. Are you now saying that Bodoni-style shapes were never an option because my font is humanist in nature...?
I am already confused what you mean by Bodoni-cut, Garamond-cut, etc. I don't think you can mix Bodoni and Garamond in one style and get away with it.
To my eyes /л and /д look wrong. I am used to seeing them much narrower with a trapezoid top.
Compare the amount of white in the counters.
Do you think you can mix an /a from Baskerville into Jenson and make it a feature? Good luck with that....
I am already confused what you mean by Bodoni-cut, Garamond-cut, etc. I don't think you can mix Bodoni and Garamond in one style and get away with it.
Christian,
I have adjusted лд to fit the current style. What are your thoughts on this?
The descenders in /ц were too heavy. This size feels more natural to me.
Another stylistical note. I would expect lowercase жк to be drop-shaped in this scenario. They feel like small caps.
If you wish these жк may be kept in a separate stylistical set, and should be matched with л+y with "spider-terminals".
This type of customisation is acceptable, unless you don't alter the letter-skelet.
Example:
Could I salvage those лд by using the /a/e from .ss02, which have larger apertures? Or are there many more letters in the current Cormorant lowercase that would need to be changed to fit Bodoni-style лд?
I'm not sure whether the ball-terminal кж work out as well, though
Judging from the Google Fonts usage stats, Cormorant Garamond seems much more popular on Russian sites than Cormorant, so the triangular bodies really seem to work. Maybe changing the trapezoids in the regular Cormorant will help it catch up. :)
Descenders of ц: I guess that should be propagated to all similar descenders?
The top bowl of /з should be contracted
Top pennant in б is too long. In Bold the left extrema point on the bowl should be raised up, cutting the extra black from the bowl.
/м is off balance. The apex can be moved to the left
The descenders in uc and lc triangular Д are too long. Need to be contracted.
Hi Alexei, thanks for the feedback! Questions:
— /ustrait-cy: I made the serif on the descender to match /p/q. What would you suggest instead? A horizontal serif? Something else?
— «Slightly bring in the left shoulder.» Not sure what exactly you mean. Should the whole bottom left structure be nudged to the right, making the glyph narrower? Only the descender? Only the sloping thin stem?
— I don't have precedent for the /gheupturn-cy; it just made the most sense to me like that. The curved bottom left instroke doesn't make much sense in humanist pen logic. I guess I'll use a plain sans stem foot, then.
— /ghemiddlehook-cy, /gestrokehook-cy: If I just slant the Roman form, the serifs will look very out of place in the Italics... I'll try to figure something out.
I really hate those slanted /ge derivatives. Any suggestions on how to improve them? Or should I just accept that they're hideous...?
As a reference, Old Standard is a true-italic font. No experimentations here. Just slanting.
Thanks! Working on the corrections.
Meanwhile, is this /de-cy better?
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What was that about /zhe-cy, though? I don't have a corrected layer to compare to.
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in ж you need to retract the two c-shaped forms 15 units inwards. So the widths of ж and ш become similar.
in ж you need to retract the two c-shaped forms 15 units inwards. So the widths of ж and ш become similar.
I did that already. Is it not narrow enough?
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As for the language coding, isn't it safer to keep the loclMKD glyphs so the locl feature can still be generated automatically until the fix is issued...?
Hi Alexei,
thanks for the corrected version; I've accepted the changed glyphs and propagated them to the Bold. Here's my new /ka-cy.
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Are we done?
I'd like to push for an update of Cormorant on GF soon. Those missing characters in the SC and Unicase cuts are bugging me.
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New commit is out.
On SS02 and SS10: Yes, that's intentional. SS10 mirrors the loclBGR; it needs the Trajan-style diagonals from SS02 («Garamond») to match the triangular /De-cy and /El-cy.
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Awesome! :) Thanks for all your work and patience, Alexei!
Dave, shall I issue a new release? How quickly can we expect an update on GF?
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Thank you for your work Christian, well done. I recommend Cormorant Cyrillic among GF best examples.
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The different form of the б — in Roman, it rather corresponds to didones than to old-style serifs.
For some reason, Garamond’s Cyrillic у has a different descender terminal compared to the Latin y.
That said, in both italics the form of б is the same and complies with the upright б from Roman.
Letters Ии, м in Garamond have a different form, which is rather typical for earlier type styles, reminiscent of capital Latin writing.
Чч have evidently different character in various cases and styles, the most relevant is the lowercase letter in Roman and Garamond.
In Cormorant Roman, the arc of the uppercase Ч has thickness distribution atypical for an old-style serif.
Uppercase and lowercase Тт have different vertical serif forms in both Roman and Garamond. Moreover, vertical serifs are different in lowercase т and ъ.
The different form of the б — in Roman, it rather corresponds to didones than to old-style serifs.— we are mixing styles intentionally, there is no historical accuracy in the brief.
For some reason, Garamond’s Cyrillic у has a different descender terminal compared to the Latin y.— intentional and acceptable
That said, in both italics the form of б is the same and complies with the upright б from Roman.— let's add /be-cy.ss02/ to italic for consistency, the contrast in the top pennant would be similar to this:
Letters Ии, м in Garamond have a different form, which is rather typical for earlier type styles, reminiscent of capital Latin writing.— that would be a feature. Again, historical accuracy isn't intended.
— I am happy with the Чч as long as they relate to the curve in /h
There are more issue I found:de-cy.ss11 feels uncomfortable for this style. What was your intention?
I can understand shorter descenders in Д compared to Ц.But I suggest to make descenders in De-cy.loclBGR the same length as in De-cy
New version is up on GitHub. Do these work?On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 3:59:50 PM UTC+2 Christian Thalmann wrote:Hi Alexei,The different form of the б — in Roman, it rather corresponds to didones than to old-style serifs.— we are mixing styles intentionally, there is no historical accuracy in the brief.«Mixing styles intentionally» sounds unnecessarily much like a haphazard potpourri to me. Instead, we settled on two distinct styles with internally consistent design goals:
- Default Cormorant makes concessions to the pointed-pen origin of the Cyrillic alphabet, departing from strict old-style tradition to allow for more recognizable and «comfortable» forms for Cyrillic readers.
- Cormorant Garamond, in contrast, leans into the dramatic monumental old-style flavor of Trajan etc. and welcomes triangular counters and elegant pointed apices at the cost of conformity to Cyrillic expectations.
In either case, we chose each individual form to best fit our design goals rather than restricting ourselves to pre-packaged historical solutions.
For some reason, Garamond’s Cyrillic у has a different descender terminal compared to the Latin y.— intentional and acceptableAgreed.That said, in both italics the form of б is the same and complies with the upright б from Roman.— let's add /be-cy.ss02/ to italic for consistency, the contrast in the top pennant would be similar to this:OK, I'll look into it.
Letters Ии, м in Garamond have a different form, which is rather typical for earlier type styles, reminiscent of capital Latin writing.— that would be a feature. Again, historical accuracy isn't intended.I would use «conformity» rather than «accuracy», since the latter implies we aimed at historicity and missed...— I am happy with the Чч as long as they relate to the curve in /hShould the joint be thinner in the /che-cy/, then?
There are more issue I found:de-cy.ss11 feels uncomfortable for this style. What was your intention?I kept that form as an alternate because I very much like it, even though everybody tells me it doesn't work for Cyrillic readers. I guess I should finally delete it. :(
I can understand shorter descenders in Д compared to Ц.But I suggest to make descenders in De-cy.loclBGR the same length as in De-cyOK, will do.Cheers, Christian
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Looks like we're ready to ingest, otherwise.
Hi Alexei,I imported your «like so» version into Glyphs to compare to the current version, and I saw almost no change. The flag just seemed to be raised by a few units compared to the previous version... in any case, does that work now?Looks like we're ready to ingest, otherwise.
Hi Alexei,I changed the style of /i-cy/ and /yi-cy/ from the Latin /idotless/ to something more like a smallcaps /i/ on the suggestion of someone on TypeDrawers. Now it turns out most typefaces apparently stick to the Latin /idotless/ form... Should I go back to that?
I also equalized the height of the dots in the two letters; I suppose that's a good change in any case.
(The same goes for Ysabeau)Cheers, ChristianOn Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 10:28:47 PM UTC+2 Christian Thalmann wrote:Fantastic! I've alerted the Google folks. Thanks for your time Alexei! :)On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 10:05:29 PM UTC+2 a...@cyreal.org wrote:On Friday, September 24, 2021 at 3:49:51 PM UTC+3 christian....@gmail.com wrote:Hi Alexei,I imported your «like so» version into Glyphs to compare to the current version, and I saw almost no change. The flag just seemed to be raised by a few units compared to the previous version... in any case, does that work now?Looks like we're ready to ingest, otherwise.Yes, this is fine. We are ready for the update.
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