!!! internet is full of confusion !!! books may also !!!

[surajit koley]

Dear friends,

See an illustration of Leea macrophylla Roxb. ex Hornem. in Kirtikar, KR, Basu, BD, Indian medicinal plants, Plates, vol. 2: t. 257 (1918) (if the website is correct) - http://www.plantillustrations.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=161897

Now see the same plant in other two illustrations -

1. http://www.plantillustrations.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=161894
   
2. http://www.plantillustrations.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=34913
   

Who is correct?

All?

What Roxburgh himself writes (on Leea macrophylla) - "... leaves simple, alternate, petioled, broad cordate, irregularly serrate or toothed lobed...."

What do you think?

Regards,

surajit

[Dinesh Valke]

Surajit ji, ... would like to go with the latter two illustrations (the two are one and the same - Illustration contributed by the Library of the Missouri Botanical Garden, U.S.A.).

Plants of Leea macrophylla that I have seen in Sanjay Gandhi National Park (Yeoor Hills, Nagla Block, Tungareshwar Wildlife Sanctuary) show the leaf to be in large simple shape. In some rare sightings - I have seen the leaf splitting in one or two leaflet at the base, the rest of the leaf remaining as a whole.

My views: http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=91314344@N00&q=Leea%20macrophylla

Eager to know from those who are familiar with Leea species.

Regards.

Dinesh

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[surajit koley]

Dinesh Ji,

I have seen your L. macrophylla this morning and as an ordinary person, who has read the description in literature, i agree with you.

Regards,

surajit

[Neil Soares]

Hi Surajit & Dinesh,    Please check these links :   https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!searchin/indiantreepix/Leea$20macrophylla$20Neil$20Soares%7Csort:relevance/indiantreepix/WRBGQHgX_qA/YeOmlupBYbQJ   https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!searchin/indiantreepix/Leea$20macrophylla$20Neil$20Soares%7Csort:relevance/indiantreepix/4-Fw_Wmmww4/ZbQTu7QQOCEJ                         With regards,                         Neil Soares. --- On Sun, 5/19/13, surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Dinesh Valke]

Many thanks Neil ji.

Regards.

Dinesh

[surajit koley]

Thank you very much Neil Sir.

Very beautifully illustrated Leea macrophylla in your https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/WRBGQHgX_qA/m_vtNXm7WlYJ upload.

I will have to read again if my species could be L. asiatica as in your 2nd upload in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/4-Fw_Wmmww4/sC7pTsWY1-UJ.

Attaching few images of two plants, seemingly same species. One is about 7 ft. high and the other is about 4.5 ft., recorded on the day before yesterday (both).

Regards,

surajit

On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 7:54 PM, Neil Soares <drneil...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[surajit koley]

Dear Friends,

I started this thread to understand Leea in our region. One species (may be two) is very common among bushes in a rural area, near Calcutta.

Bengal Plants lists 9 species. We can reject L. alata Edgew. and L. rubra Bl. for their red flowers.

We can leave L. macrophylla Hornem. too, for its simple leaves.It is the only species that has simple leaves, sometimes tooth-lobed (Roxb.) as per Bnegal Plants and Flora of British India.

FoC too admits, yet it equates it with L. robusta Roxb. Is it a copycat of The Plant List?

GRIN saved itself while our group haven't! Some other efloras too mimic FoC. Does a single entity maintain all those efloras, except ours? If yes they certainly have inefficient staff in their roll.

Of the other 6 species in Bengal Plants (i will give main points only) -

1) L. crispa L. : leaves all simply pinnate, petioles and rachis often winged, leaflets broad, oblong

2) L. aspera Edgew. : leaves more or less 2-pinnate, upper leaves simply pinnate or with the lowest pair of pinnae only 3 foliolate, lower leaves 2-pinnate, leaflets cordate at base

3) L. herbacea Ham. : upper leaves usually 2-pinnate like the lower; leaflets rounded or cuneate at base

The Plant List equates all the three above with Leea asiatica (L.) Ridsdale. Let's see a few illustrations - http://www.plantillustrations.org/species.php?id_species=591028. Please also check FoC - http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242328689.

4) L. sambucina Willd. : all 2-3-pinnate, leaves glabrous beneath

Both The Plant List and FoC equate the above with Leea indica (Burm. f.) Merr. Illustrations can be found at - http://plantillustrations.org/species.php?id_species=591087 and http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=93459&flora_id=2

5) L. aequata L. : all 2-3-pinnate, leaflets with hairs and scattered flat discs beneath

It is an accepted name to both The Plant List and FoC. Illustrations - http://www.plantillustrations.org/species.php?id_species=591019 and http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=93670&flora_id=2

6) L. robusta Roxb. : all 2-3-pinnate; leaflets pilose on nerves but with no disks beneath

Well, you already know why i started this thread, and you have already seen an illustration - http://www.plantillustrations.org/ILLUSTRATIONS_HD/161897.jpg (source : http://www.plantillustrations.org/illustration.php?id_illustration=161897)

Thank you,

Regard,

surajit

[Neil Soares]

Hi Surajit,   Your plants don't look like L.asiatica to me. They could be L.indica [or some other species].

[surajit koley]

Neil Sir,

I also think my species is not L. asiatica. It could have been L. indica if it was glabrous, specially the under surface of the leaves. But the plants i photographed were hairy all over. Leaves are never glabrous on any side.

So, i think the species i am concerned with is either L. aequata or L. robusta. It will be tough to check for those "abaxial disks" if they look like the ones in fig12 of FoC illustration - http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=93670&flora_id=2.

Thank you very much for helping me to zero in to my target.

Regards,

surajit

[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

Your plants don't look like L.asiatica to me. They could be L.indica [or some other species]. With regards, Neil Soares.

I also think my species is not L. asiatica. It could have been L. indica if it was glabrous, specially the under surface of the leaves. But the plants i photographed were hairy all over. Leaves are never glabrous on any side.

So, i think the species i am concerned with is either L. aequata or L. robusta. It will be tough to check for those "abaxial disks" if they look like the ones in fig12 of FoC illustration - http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=93670&flora_id=2. Thank you very much for helping me to zero in to my target. Regards, surajit

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com>
Date: 19 May 2013 23:05
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:155485] !!! internet is full of confusion !!! books may also !!!
To: Neil Soares <drneil...@yahoo.com>
Cc: Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com>, efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'
The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise): http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world): http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 2085 members & 1,53,000 messages on 30/4/13) or Efloraofindia website: https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database of more than 8000 species).

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'. 

[Dr Pankaj Kumar]

Dear Mr. Surajit

If you had read properly the text in the protologue you would have found your answer.

If you look at your first link you may still find the answer.

Please recheck when you have time to spare.

Enjoy

Pankaj

[surajitkoley]

Dear Pankaj Sir,

What is protologue and where do i find it?

Which "first link"? I have pasted a number of links in several replies in this thread.

Regard,

surajit

[Samir Mehta]

My dear Surajit,

So near yet so far!

 http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=93670&flora_id=2.

Adaxial leaflet surface glabrous, abaxial surface pubescent; bracts conspicuously broad and large, elliptic or oval-elliptic.

7 L. compactiflora

 Leea compactiflora Kurz, J. Asiat. Soc. Bengal, Pt. 2, Nat. Hist. 42: 65. 1873.

If you can post close-up of flower & fruit I would like to compare it with images from Maharashtra though if you go strictly by the 'keys' it does not look necessary in this case .

Best Wishes,

Samir Mehta

[surajit koley]

Good morning Sir

It will be very kind of you if you please tell me which of the images in this thread bears 1) large, broad, elliptic / oval-elliptic bracts 2) large elliptic-lanceolate involucre 3) which species it fits into the species list described in the Bengal Plants.

It seems to be so easy (to experts), so clear

Yet i'm heading nowhere!

Regards,

surajit

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[Samir Mehta]

'..Yet i'm heading nowhere!'

Not at all; I think you you are pretty much there Surajit.
You need to take a short break, relax and then look at your own images again and the FoC illustration
[http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=93910&flora_id=2] and co-relate.

As you are the enthusiastic I will suggest you google the terms eg. 'involucre images' and you will get a whole lot of images and definitions on 'involucre'. This way you will 'learn how to fish rather than be given / fed a fish'. By the way, I do the same when I do not know something.

Though FoC keys are based on leaves there are other keys which are dependent on the floral elements and will therefore appreciate if close-up images of the flower are posted, as and when available.

Lastly, I must bring to your notice that mysterious software bugs / administrative changes are being made to the posting options such that my posts do not reach the group-site or reach late thereby distorting the sequence in which the posts appear. This can lead to much misunderstanding and disharmony. I have stated this on the group before also.

Regards,

Samir Mehta

[J.M. Garg]

Hi, Samir ji,

"Lastly, I must bring to your notice that mysterious software bugs / administrative changes are being made to the posting options such that my posts do not reach the group-site or reach late thereby distorting the sequence in which the posts appear. This can lead to much misunderstanding and disharmony. I have stated this on the group before also." -> Could you pl. let me know of any instances so that I can look into it for reasons ?

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[Samir Mehta]

Dear  Jagmohan ji,

There a couple of instances in the recent past.

I draw your attention to the thread below

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topicsearchin/indiantreepix/SAMIR$20AND$20MEHTA$20AND$20authorname$3A%22SAMIR$20MEHTA%22$20AND$20after$3A2013$2F04$2F01/indiantreepix/Ov4CR6FQJIA

In this particular instance / thread the reply from Manoj ji dated 24-05-2013 was not received in my inbox.
The thread was started my me on 22-05-2013 and hence any reply (activity) in this thread I should result in a e-mail to my inbox. This is how we are configured.
You will appreciate that when a person posts on your thread or in reply to your query / remark you generally would like know / reply to  him / her.
In this particular case I was lucky that I spotted the reply from Manoj ji while going through the group-site posts 2 days later and thanked him for the same. Had I not accidentally spotted the reply from him: a) I would have never known the correct identity of the species; b} It would send a wrong message to the person who helped nail the correct id that his effort was not acknowledged. c) assumed there were no responses to the post.

Will appreciate learning reasons for the same.

[Gurcharan Singh]

Looks strange Samir ji

I just checked my inbox, the reply from Manoj ji was there on 24th itself and so is your reply of 26th. The replies often get detached (or get attached to different threads) if there was no subject line in the original message (or subject line was too common) or the person who posted the reply made some change to the subject line (but thread remains intact in the web forum), but in this case your subject line was unique and subject line was unaltered by Manoj ji. 

    Perhaps reason needs to be checked further. 

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[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Samir ji,

I checked in my inbox as well as in the e-group thread.

Manoj ji's reply was marked to indian...@googlegroups.com only with no copy to you on 24-4-13 (such an option is allowed when replying from e-group theard instead of reply from g-mail).

Naturally ther specific attention of yours was drawn.

If you don't see all the mails, it is very likely that you will certainly miss it. 

 

Our e-group has been upgraded from e-group to a forum since long, where almost all activity can be done from e-group threads instead of gmail etc. unlike earlier. This is helpful to members who has not opted fro 'all mails' option & would rather like to interact from the home page. And everything in this regard is beyond the control of the moderators.

I hope this helps. 

 

[J.M. Garg]

Pl. read as 'Naturally ther specific attention of yours was not drawn.'

[surajit koley]

Dear Sir,

The issue of receiving reply mails lies in the option a particular member select during membership, or change afterwards.

I too do not receive any reply mail in my mailbox when any member/administrator/moderator replies/comments in the site itself.

That is why i and Satish Sir had a discussion in an earlier thread.

This is normal functioning, specially after a change that has been made by google itself.

Garg Sir or Gurcharan Sir doesn't face any problem because they have opted for all mails.

Please find the attached screenshots to see how it works.

• sm01.jpg = Samir Ji opted for "no mail" option
  
• sm02 = i opted for "combined updates"
• smo3 = if a member replies by clicking the tab in the site itself, it may not reach the owner of the post. It reaches only when a member himself finds the reply in the site itself and re-reply the post, this 2nd time automatically send a reply mail to the owner's inbox and CC is added automatically
• sm04 = in the above (sm03) option if a member add cc to the owner, it will reach the owner's inbox. It is exactly what i do
• sm05 = alternatively one can select "reply to author" itself to reach the person whom the reply was intended

I am returning to Leea, shortly.

Thank you

Regards

surajit

[surajit koley]

Sir,

Long ago while i tried to id a few cyperaceae i searched "involucre" and google gave me tons of asteraceae. A search of "bracts" is more head-spinning.

I think my species is not Leea compactiflora Kurz, J. Asiat. Soc. Bengal, Pt. 2, Nat. Hist. 42: 65. 1873. of FoC.

Leea compactiflora Kurz, of FoC = Leea bracteata C. B. Clarke; L. trifoliata M. A. Lawson.

You will find descriptions, along with distribution of the above three in pages 138, 139, 164, 165 & 102; along with notes of Clarke in "Journal of Botany, British & Foreign", vol. 19.

Attaching flowers pictures of the plant in this thread.

It is either L. robusta Roxb. or L. aequata L. Both the species had been described in the same journal. For the time being i select L. robusta Roxb.

Please note L. robusta Roxb. is not exactly the same plant what has been described in Flora of British India, which had been referred by "Bengal Plants" itself. Of course this is my little understanding based on very little knowledge of botany.

Regards,

surajit

[Samir Mehta]

Surajit,

It's always good to keep an open mind on the id until the very end especially in our / the circumstances.

involucre

A whorl of bracts subtending a flower or flower cluster; the calyx-like structure at the base of a capitulum, as in the Asteraceae.

I hope you find the definition of involucre  easy to understand. Armed with this definition you must tell us your where and in which image of yours the involucre is seen!

Have not had the time to read the article you have suggested - time is a very precious commodity.

Be rest assured I will follow-up on this thread and make my own attempts to nail the id.

Regards,

Samir Mehta

[surajit koley]

Yes Sir, time is very precious.

But is it commodity?

Not sure, to me -

Each second forwards you to inevitable.

I am spending a lot !

Why?

It is very surprising to me that our experts can often id a plant with a single image, even if the picture is not very clear !!!

Yet, i am spending so much time.... only for this group, lot of arguing, revisiting my plants regularly, collecting info from the net, until an id gets satisfactorily established.

What do i earn?

Absolutely nothing!

Enough is enough

Someone said -

"A picture is worth a thousand words"

Check the latest pictures of the same plant, and a screenshot.

And if you like -

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=220007382

"....you must tell us your where and in which image of yours the involucre is seen"

That was in FoC - http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242328692, not in my image!!!

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 9:41 AM, surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com> wrote:

message forwarded

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Samir Mehta <samirm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Surajit,

The ongoing thread has become very long and a bit confusing therefore this direct e-mail to you (not via efi).

Please let me know if my understanding is correct:

This plant  is a shrub, which has compound pinnate (bipinnate / tripinnate) leaves.

On under surface of leaves there are no circular discs and there is pubescence (hairiness) - is this stiff (strigose) or soft (pilose)?

Inflorescence type - is it a compound umbel or another?

Regarding flower is the staminal tube entire or notched? - cannot make out from your images.

My flower (attached) has a notched staminal tube.

What about bracts / involucre?

Is 5ft_P10305021 image of your plant? - may 19 post

P1030881.jpg - whats this? and is it image from same plant?

Am attaching two image of what I feel is L.compactiflora for you to compare with your flower and leaf (under surface).

Lastly, how does one get to the page where you can view e-mail and mailing details (sm01.jpg)

Ragards,

Samir Mehta

[surajit koley]

message forwarded

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: surajit koley <surajitno...@gmail.com>

Date: Tue, May 28, 2013 at 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Leea sp.
To: Samir Mehta <samirm...@gmail.com>

Sir,

I think the plant in this thread, and the one in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/n2iG0-D0TAw/nVFoPplDE3EJ, again the 3rd one - https://groups.google.com/d/msg/indiantreepix/czJK6AzcfAg/FmW2jUa6AQMJ are all L. aequata L.

There are somewhat clear flower pictures in the link above that show notched staminal tube.

The leaves in my species are 2-pinnate.

I think pictures P1030883 and P1030889original in today's upload show abaxial discs.

The bracts of Leea i think are not present in all species or inconspicuous in some species. When present they will be present around individual flowers.

P1030881 pic is of the stipule, that can be seen in the other two posts too.

5ft_P1030521 pic in this thread is part of the same stipule, wherefrom the peduncle emerges. I think this is what sometimes FoC refers as involucre.

The whole plant in all my threads is hairy, more or less scabrous. Both the abaxial and adaxial surface of leaves are scabrous.

Your leaf does not show any discs. So, it cannot be L. aequata L. I don't know which species it is.

Thank you

Good night

Regards,

surajit

[surajit koley]

Dear Samir Sir,

The discussion, i think, should go on in the group itself and in this very thread.

Thank you,

Regards,

surajit

On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Samir Mehta <samirm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Surajit,

What you are calling stipule is the involucre.

I feel this is L.compactiflora, you think it's L. aequata and others have still other opinions which is how a healthy group should function.

I suggest you post a one final request calling group-members to give their final opinion / views on the id. If someone responds fine , if not - no problem. The post can be resurfaced periodically till satisfactory resolution.

Regards,

Samir Mehta