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apple's idiotic file app
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sobriquet
Dec 12, 2018, 11:43:21 AM12/12/18
to
Hi.
Why is apple so moronic that they don't allow people to make a folder
on their own device?!
I was downloading a file from We-Transfer and I'm a bit new to
IOS 12 so I reckoned that with the new file app it should be
possible to simply store a file on the ipad, but it turns out
you can only create folders in the icloud section of the file app
and not in the "on my ipad" section.
What is the rationale behind this seemingly idiotic decision?
Isn't it kind of logical to allow people to make folders on their
own device so they can store files in appropriate folders?
If people are allowed to create folders on their icloud storage space
with the file app, why on earth would apple not enable users to
create folders on their own device?!
This really baffles me. Maybe someone can offer some kind of rational
explanation for this mysterious lack of basic functionality
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT206481
Jolly Roger
Dec 12, 2018, 12:21:33 PM12/12/18
to
sobriquet <dohd...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> Why is apple so moronic that they don't allow people to make a folder
> on their own device?!
>
> I was downloading a file from We-Transfer and I'm a bit new to
> IOS 12 so I reckoned that with the new file app it should be
> possible to simply store a file on the ipad, but it turns out
> you can only create folders in the icloud section of the file app
> and not in the "on my ipad" section.
The "folders" in “On my iPhone" represent the storage of the apps on your
>
> Hi.
>
> Why is apple so moronic that they don't allow people to make a folder
> on their own device?!
>
> I was downloading a file from We-Transfer and I'm a bit new to
> IOS 12 so I reckoned that with the new file app it should be
> possible to simply store a file on the ipad, but it turns out
> you can only create folders in the icloud section of the file app
> and not in the "on my ipad" section.
actual device. If you create a document in Pages on the iPhone, if will be
accessible from the Files app. Apps on iOS are sandboxed which means there
is no central location for files and they are instead stored inside of each
app’s sandbox.
You can create sub folders inside of these app folders, but not top-level
folders in “On My Device” since there is no central place in the file
system to actually hold files outside of app sandboxed.
Support for the Files app is opt-in for each app developer.
You’re right that it’s irritating. But knowing that these folders actually
point to file system locations that reside within each individual app
sandbox explains why you can’t create orphan top-level folders: the data
has no centralized place in the file system.
--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.
JR
sobriquet
Dec 12, 2018, 12:34:50 PM12/12/18
to
sort of like the way you can't create folders in the
"This PC" location in the windows file explorer even though it
shows some folders seemingly existing in that location
(Documents, Downloads, Music, Pictures, Videos, ..).
But somehow it seems like an arbitrary choice that the icloud
storage space allows the creation of custom folders, while the
local storage space does not. So I guess icloud is treated like
a sandbox in its own right, but from a security perspective
I don't see how it would somehow compromise things if users
were allowed to create custom folders on their local storage
space just like they are allowed to create custom folders on
their icloud storage space.
arlen holder
Dec 20, 2018, 7:12:27 PM12/20/18
to
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 09:34:49 -0800 (PST), sobriquet wrote:
> But somehow it seems like an arbitrary choice that the icloud
> storage space allows the creation of custom folders, while the
> local storage space does not.
This post is intended to be an erudite summary on that statement.
> But somehow it seems like an arbitrary choice that the icloud
> storage space allows the creation of custom folders, while the
> local storage space does not.
Over the decades, I've probably read most, if not almost all the "ios
versus Android" articles, where almost nobody, and probably nobody,
actually "gets it", IMHO, with respect to the functional ramifications of
the "they're different" statement.
For example, people like nospam say "they're different", which, of course,
is true, but that assumes a childishly naiev functional equality in apps
that just isn't there.
That is, for app functionality, and for hardware functionality, it's
trivial to perform a one-to-one comparison, where the fact that "they're
different" is subsumed by the facts of functionality
o Hardware: (They're different - and close to equal in functionality)
o Apps: (They're different - but not even close to equal in functionality)
However, on this "local storage" issue - here is where they truly "are
different", and yet, the functionality is also different, in that:
o Storage: (They're different - and completely different in functionality)
I realize only two or three people on this newsgroup will have the innate
intelligence to comprehend the point above, where it's ONLY in the way
files are stored that the two platforms are BOTH different, and different
in functionality - and yet - the tradeoffs are functional).
If you understood what I just summarized, Sobriquet, then kudos to you.
If you don't understand what I just summarized, and if you're interested in
comprehending the three facts below, just ask me to clarify.
Few comprehend this is the fundamental difference between iOS & Android
o On hardware - they're different - but essentially equal in functionality
o On apps - they're different - where functional inequities are immense
o On storage - they're completely different paradigms for local storage
Notice that, in essence, only in the storage paradigm, are they truly
"different" in a way that indicates an equality in functional tradeoffs.
sms
Dec 21, 2018, 9:10:59 AM12/21/18
to
On 12/20/2018 4:12 PM, arlen holder wrote:
<snip>
> o On hardware - they're different - but essentially equal in
> functionality
Not really. While the raw hardware may be essentially equal in most
cases, the functionality often is not. Two major annoyances to app
developers (and hardware developers) when it comes to iOS are:
1. No support for the Bluetooth Serial Port Protocol (SPP).
The somewhat, but limited, workaround is to use BLE, which increases the
cost of the hardware devices and greatly decreases data rates. For
example, an ELM327 Bluetooth dongle is as little as $2. A BLE ELM327
dongle has much lower data rates and costs about $13, and since the
device is powered by the vehicle there is no good reason to have to us
BLE other than the manufacturer wanted compatibility with iOS devices so
they sacrificed speed for compatibility.
I have never figured out the reason why iOS doesn't support SPP. There
doesn't seem to be any security issue related to this.
2. No support for acquiring and using NMEA data from the GPS.
A major pain for some of the work I do with IOT, with the need to tell
customers, "you have to buy an Android device with a GPS to use our app
and to do set up, but any cheap prepaid Android phone, and many cheap
Android tablets, will work, but we could not do an iOS version of the app."
Also, hardware functionality is NOT "essentially equal" in several key
respects:
1. No GPS on Wi-Fi only iOS devices (iPod Pro, Wi-Fi only iPad). So any
apps that require a GPS can't work on Wi-Fi only iOS devices. When I
travel internationally, a local navigation app, that does not require
expensive data, is extremely useful, and works on my LTE iPad Pro as
well as on my Wi-Fi only Android tablet (which has a GPS of course).
However there are many apps that require a GPS that have nothing to do
with navigation.
2. Headphone jack. Forget for a minute about simple headphones or
earbuds. There are many other accessories that use that ubiquitous
interface, many of them low cost devices that can't afford the royalties
for the MFi license, some of them high cost devices. Removing the only
standard, royalty-free port was done for a reason, but it's still a
PITA! <https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/07/applejack/>. Well don't forget
about headphones completely! I have a very good set of noise reducing
headphones for travel. Now I have to keep track of yet another adapter
(well I actually don't have to since I have an iPhone 6s Plus, but I
have to give up some nice features of the newer iPhones).
3. Dual SIM. Well the Xr and the Xs Max do have one eSIM and one
physical SIM, and the China versions have two physical SIMs. For those
of us that need to separate personal and professional calls, we either
carry two phones or use a dual SIM phone, though there are now
workarounds with Google Voice and other similar systems. I was at an
event last night, and people were asking me, and my colleagues, why do
you guys all have multiple phones? Ditto for my wife who has to keep her
work phone separate.
I have an iPhone and an iPad as well as Android phones and tablets. The
hardware differences are significant, and that directly affects the
available applications.
<snip>
> o On hardware - they're different - but essentially equal in
> functionality
cases, the functionality often is not. Two major annoyances to app
developers (and hardware developers) when it comes to iOS are:
1. No support for the Bluetooth Serial Port Protocol (SPP).
The somewhat, but limited, workaround is to use BLE, which increases the
cost of the hardware devices and greatly decreases data rates. For
example, an ELM327 Bluetooth dongle is as little as $2. A BLE ELM327
dongle has much lower data rates and costs about $13, and since the
device is powered by the vehicle there is no good reason to have to us
BLE other than the manufacturer wanted compatibility with iOS devices so
they sacrificed speed for compatibility.
I have never figured out the reason why iOS doesn't support SPP. There
doesn't seem to be any security issue related to this.
2. No support for acquiring and using NMEA data from the GPS.
A major pain for some of the work I do with IOT, with the need to tell
customers, "you have to buy an Android device with a GPS to use our app
and to do set up, but any cheap prepaid Android phone, and many cheap
Android tablets, will work, but we could not do an iOS version of the app."
Also, hardware functionality is NOT "essentially equal" in several key
respects:
1. No GPS on Wi-Fi only iOS devices (iPod Pro, Wi-Fi only iPad). So any
apps that require a GPS can't work on Wi-Fi only iOS devices. When I
travel internationally, a local navigation app, that does not require
expensive data, is extremely useful, and works on my LTE iPad Pro as
well as on my Wi-Fi only Android tablet (which has a GPS of course).
However there are many apps that require a GPS that have nothing to do
with navigation.
2. Headphone jack. Forget for a minute about simple headphones or
earbuds. There are many other accessories that use that ubiquitous
interface, many of them low cost devices that can't afford the royalties
for the MFi license, some of them high cost devices. Removing the only
standard, royalty-free port was done for a reason, but it's still a
PITA! <https://techcrunch.com/2016/09/07/applejack/>. Well don't forget
about headphones completely! I have a very good set of noise reducing
headphones for travel. Now I have to keep track of yet another adapter
(well I actually don't have to since I have an iPhone 6s Plus, but I
have to give up some nice features of the newer iPhones).
3. Dual SIM. Well the Xr and the Xs Max do have one eSIM and one
physical SIM, and the China versions have two physical SIMs. For those
of us that need to separate personal and professional calls, we either
carry two phones or use a dual SIM phone, though there are now
workarounds with Google Voice and other similar systems. I was at an
event last night, and people were asking me, and my colleagues, why do
you guys all have multiple phones? Ditto for my wife who has to keep her
work phone separate.
I have an iPhone and an iPad as well as Android phones and tablets. The
hardware differences are significant, and that directly affects the
available applications.
nospam
Dec 21, 2018, 9:50:16 AM12/21/18
to
In article <pvis9h$ci6$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> 1. No support for the Bluetooth Serial Port Protocol (SPP).
>
> The somewhat, but limited, workaround is to use BLE, which increases the
> cost of the hardware devices and greatly decreases data rates.
complete nonsense.
bluetooth le is not a workaround. it's a vastly more capable protocol
versus bluetooth classic and spp. it's *much* easier to use, both for
users and developers.
> For
> example, an ELM327 Bluetooth dongle is as little as $2. A BLE ELM327
> dongle has much lower data rates and costs about $13,
you're worried about $11??
there is also *no* issue with data rates.
more ignorant bullshit.
> and since the
> device is powered by the vehicle there is no good reason to have to us
> BLE other than the manufacturer wanted compatibility with iOS devices so
> they sacrificed speed for compatibility.
nonsense. there is no sacrifice for speed (or anything else) and
android supports bluetooth le anyway.
> I have never figured out the reason why iOS doesn't support SPP. There
> doesn't seem to be any security issue related to this.
it's very simple: spp is obsolete.
bluetooth le does a lot more than spp could ever possibly do.
> 2. No support for acquiring and using NMEA data from the GPS.
> A major pain for some of the work I do with IOT, with the need to tell
> customers, "you have to buy an Android device with a GPS to use our app
> and to do set up, but any cheap prepaid Android phone, and many cheap
> Android tablets, will work, but we could not do an iOS version of the app."
most people don't know what nmea *is*.
if you need nmea data, use a real gps device.
> Also, hardware functionality is NOT "essentially equal" in several key
> respects:
>
> 1. No GPS on Wi-Fi only iOS devices (iPod Pro, Wi-Fi only iPad). So any
> apps that require a GPS can't work on Wi-Fi only iOS devices. When I
> travel internationally, a local navigation app, that does not require
> expensive data, is extremely useful, and works on my LTE iPad Pro as
> well as on my Wi-Fi only Android tablet (which has a GPS of course).
> However there are many apps that require a GPS that have nothing to do
> with navigation.
the reason is because the gps uses cellular to eliminate any delay in
obtaining an accurate location. no data plan is needed, nor even an
active account. it just needs a cellular radio.
without cellular to obtain valid ephemeris, the time to first fix would
be much, much longer, especially for someone who travels, where the
ephemeris would be stale, requiring a delay to get a gps fix, possibly
several minutes.
so while there are wifi-only android devices with gps, they don't work
particularly well.
> 2. Headphone jack.
analog headphone jacks are obsolete. they have been replaced by more
capable digital headphone jacks.
most people use the bundled headphones, bluetooth headphones or the
built in speaker (i.e., no headphones), so it's not an issue
whatsoever.
those who want to use specific headphones can get an adapter. no big
deal.
it's not just apple who is removing the outdated analog headphone jack
either.
although apple gets criticized, it was actually android who was the
first to not have an analog headphone jack, starting with the first
android phone, the t-mobile g1 a decade ago.
more recently, a number of android phones have replaced it with a
digital headphone jack.
the analog headphone jack takes up space that could be better used for
other purposes, which is very important on a space-constrained phone.
> 3. Dual SIM. Well the Xr and the Xs Max do have one eSIM and one
> physical SIM, and the China versions have two physical SIMs.
that's a rarely needed feature, which the new iphones support, so it's
not an issue.
<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > o On hardware - they're different - but essentially equal in
> > functionality
>
> Not really. While the raw hardware may be essentially equal in most
> cases, the functionality often is not. Two major annoyances to app
> developers (and hardware developers) when it comes to iOS are:
not only are they not 'major annoyances', but they aren't even an issue.
> > o On hardware - they're different - but essentially equal in
> > functionality
>
> Not really. While the raw hardware may be essentially equal in most
> cases, the functionality often is not. Two major annoyances to app
> developers (and hardware developers) when it comes to iOS are:
> 1. No support for the Bluetooth Serial Port Protocol (SPP).
>
> The somewhat, but limited, workaround is to use BLE, which increases the
> cost of the hardware devices and greatly decreases data rates.
bluetooth le is not a workaround. it's a vastly more capable protocol
versus bluetooth classic and spp. it's *much* easier to use, both for
users and developers.
> For
> example, an ELM327 Bluetooth dongle is as little as $2. A BLE ELM327
> dongle has much lower data rates and costs about $13,
there is also *no* issue with data rates.
more ignorant bullshit.
> and since the
> device is powered by the vehicle there is no good reason to have to us
> BLE other than the manufacturer wanted compatibility with iOS devices so
> they sacrificed speed for compatibility.
android supports bluetooth le anyway.
> I have never figured out the reason why iOS doesn't support SPP. There
> doesn't seem to be any security issue related to this.
bluetooth le does a lot more than spp could ever possibly do.
> 2. No support for acquiring and using NMEA data from the GPS.
> A major pain for some of the work I do with IOT, with the need to tell
> customers, "you have to buy an Android device with a GPS to use our app
> and to do set up, but any cheap prepaid Android phone, and many cheap
> Android tablets, will work, but we could not do an iOS version of the app."
if you need nmea data, use a real gps device.
> Also, hardware functionality is NOT "essentially equal" in several key
> respects:
>
> 1. No GPS on Wi-Fi only iOS devices (iPod Pro, Wi-Fi only iPad). So any
> apps that require a GPS can't work on Wi-Fi only iOS devices. When I
> travel internationally, a local navigation app, that does not require
> expensive data, is extremely useful, and works on my LTE iPad Pro as
> well as on my Wi-Fi only Android tablet (which has a GPS of course).
> However there are many apps that require a GPS that have nothing to do
> with navigation.
obtaining an accurate location. no data plan is needed, nor even an
active account. it just needs a cellular radio.
without cellular to obtain valid ephemeris, the time to first fix would
be much, much longer, especially for someone who travels, where the
ephemeris would be stale, requiring a delay to get a gps fix, possibly
several minutes.
so while there are wifi-only android devices with gps, they don't work
particularly well.
> 2. Headphone jack.
analog headphone jacks are obsolete. they have been replaced by more
capable digital headphone jacks.
most people use the bundled headphones, bluetooth headphones or the
built in speaker (i.e., no headphones), so it's not an issue
whatsoever.
those who want to use specific headphones can get an adapter. no big
deal.
it's not just apple who is removing the outdated analog headphone jack
either.
although apple gets criticized, it was actually android who was the
first to not have an analog headphone jack, starting with the first
android phone, the t-mobile g1 a decade ago.
more recently, a number of android phones have replaced it with a
digital headphone jack.
the analog headphone jack takes up space that could be better used for
other purposes, which is very important on a space-constrained phone.
> 3. Dual SIM. Well the Xr and the Xs Max do have one eSIM and one
> physical SIM, and the China versions have two physical SIMs.
not an issue.
arlen holder
Dec 21, 2018, 10:51:35 AM12/21/18
to
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 09:50:15 -0500, nospam wrote:
> bluetooth le is not a workaround.
> bluetooth le is not a workaround.
> you're worried about $11??
> it's very simple: spp is obsolete.
> bluetooth le does a lot more than spp could ever possibly do.
> bluetooth le does a lot more than spp could ever possibly do.
> most people don't know what nmea *is*.
> if you need nmea data, use a real gps device.
> if you need nmea data, use a real gps device.
> so while there are wifi-only android devices with gps,
> analog headphone jacks are obsolete
> those who want to use specific headphones can get an adapter
> the analog headphone jack takes up space
The purpose is to provide an erudite summary for intelligent people.
Intelligent people will note that sms brought up an excellent clarification
on the general hardware differences, which adds to our knowledge, while
it's always reassuring that nospam responds with "just give up" and "buy an
adapter" and "just do without" the functionality (in addition to nospam's
classic MO of blaming Android for iOS deficiencies).
Given sms' erudite comments and nospam's classic apologies, how's this look
for a more accurate summary of the general next level to the "They're
Different" answer that few comprehend.
o *Hardware* - they're different - Apple often being lesser in basic functionality
o *Apps* - they're different - where functional inequities are immense
o *Storage* - they're completely different paradigms for local storage
Notice that, in essence, only in the storage paradigm, are they truly
day will notice.
The rest of the inequalities will be noticed every day by the power users,
where I notice the lack of functionality on iOS every single time I touch
the thing - but where every Mom & Pop & Kid users might not notice the
differences.
*How does this look for an erudite summary for intelligfent people?*
o Hardware - essentially equal - but Apple is deficient in basic areas
o Apps - equal in basic functionality - Apple woefully deficient overall
o Storage - completely different paradigms - no 1-to-1 comparison
nospam
Dec 21, 2018, 10:56:47 AM12/21/18
to
In article <pvj266$1tk$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
done once again.
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
>
> > bluetooth le is not a workaround.
> > you're worried about $11??
> > it's very simple: spp is obsolete.
> > bluetooth le does a lot more than spp could ever possibly do.
> > most people don't know what nmea *is*.
> > if you need nmea data, use a real gps device.
> > so while there are wifi-only android devices with gps,
> > analog headphone jacks are obsolete
> > those who want to use specific headphones can get an adapter
> > the analog headphone jack takes up space
>
> The purpose is to provide an erudite summary for intelligent people.
intelligent people do not snip to alter context, which is what you have
>
> > bluetooth le is not a workaround.
> > you're worried about $11??
> > it's very simple: spp is obsolete.
> > bluetooth le does a lot more than spp could ever possibly do.
> > most people don't know what nmea *is*.
> > if you need nmea data, use a real gps device.
> > so while there are wifi-only android devices with gps,
> > analog headphone jacks are obsolete
> > those who want to use specific headphones can get an adapter
> > the analog headphone jack takes up space
>
> The purpose is to provide an erudite summary for intelligent people.
done once again.
arlen holder
Dec 21, 2018, 12:04:10 PM12/21/18
to
On Fri, 21 Dec 2018 10:56:46 -0500, nospam wrote:
> intelligent people do not snip to alter context
Standard Usenet quoting etiquette...
> intelligent people do not snip to alter context
<http://www.rvelthuis.de/articles/articles-quoting.html>
"Do not overquote. "
<http://www.river.com/users/share/etiquette/#quotes>
"quote only those portions of the original message that are
relevant to the topic we're addressing."
"There is almost never any need to quote someone else's post in full.
As a matter of fact, full-quoting is usually considered quite rude."
You complain about the quoting, but you can't defend on facts.
I've learened over the years Apologists have virtually no defense to facts.
nospam
Dec 21, 2018, 12:14:30 PM12/21/18
to
In article <pvj6e9$91f$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
>
> > intelligent people do not snip to alter context
>
> Standard Usenet quoting etiquette...
is *not* alter context, nor is it to troll.
>
> > intelligent people do not snip to alter context
>
> Standard Usenet quoting etiquette...
Zaidy036
Dec 21, 2018, 2:40:21 PM12/21/18
to
Use DropBox or AirTransfer
--
Zaidy036
sms
Dec 22, 2018, 1:28:11 PM12/22/18
to
On 12/21/2018 7:51 AM, arlen holder wrote:
<snip>
> The rest of the inequalities will be noticed every day by the power users,
> where I notice the lack of functionality on iOS every single time I touch
> the thing - but where every Mom & Pop & Kid users might not notice the
> differences.
Power users are not the target market for those devices. It's a key
difference in philosophy that goes all the way back to the Mac versus PC.
Don't think like a Silicon Valley person. The average consumer has no
interest in app launchers, NMEA data, transferring files into their
phone, or using their device as a front-end controller for industrial,
medical, or military devices. They can't even spell IOT.
<snip>
> The rest of the inequalities will be noticed every day by the power users,
> where I notice the lack of functionality on iOS every single time I touch
> the thing - but where every Mom & Pop & Kid users might not notice the
> differences.
difference in philosophy that goes all the way back to the Mac versus PC.
Don't think like a Silicon Valley person. The average consumer has no
interest in app launchers, NMEA data, transferring files into their
phone, or using their device as a front-end controller for industrial,
medical, or military devices. They can't even spell IOT.
nospam
Dec 22, 2018, 2:05:52 PM12/22/18
to
In article <pvlvnq$pka$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
so, and the same for ios and android.
> Don't think like a Silicon Valley person. The average consumer has no
> interest in app launchers, NMEA data, transferring files into their
> phone, or using their device as a front-end controller for industrial,
> medical, or military devices. They can't even spell IOT.
average consumers absolutely are interested in file transfer and
medical applications, both of which are *easier* on ios than on
android.
average consumers do not have access to military devices so they can't
use a phone (or a computer for that matter) as a front end to one even
if they wanted to (which they don't).
average consumers not only can spell iot, but they're buying lots of
iot devices, mostly to use with amazon alexa, but also apple homekit.
<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > The rest of the inequalities will be noticed every day by the power users,
> > where I notice the lack of functionality on iOS every single time I touch
> > the thing - but where every Mom & Pop & Kid users might not notice the
> > differences.
>
> Power users are not the target market for those devices. It's a key
> difference in philosophy that goes all the way back to the Mac versus PC.
more ignorant trolling. macs are just as powerful as pcs, if not more
> > The rest of the inequalities will be noticed every day by the power users,
> > where I notice the lack of functionality on iOS every single time I touch
> > the thing - but where every Mom & Pop & Kid users might not notice the
> > differences.
>
> Power users are not the target market for those devices. It's a key
> difference in philosophy that goes all the way back to the Mac versus PC.
so, and the same for ios and android.
> Don't think like a Silicon Valley person. The average consumer has no
> interest in app launchers, NMEA data, transferring files into their
> phone, or using their device as a front-end controller for industrial,
> medical, or military devices. They can't even spell IOT.
medical applications, both of which are *easier* on ios than on
android.
average consumers do not have access to military devices so they can't
use a phone (or a computer for that matter) as a front end to one even
if they wanted to (which they don't).
average consumers not only can spell iot, but they're buying lots of
iot devices, mostly to use with amazon alexa, but also apple homekit.
Alan Browne
Dec 22, 2018, 4:50:17 PM12/22/18
to
transport files to/from work that are not work related. For smaller
files I can resort to Dropbox, larger, not so much. It would be
sensible to have such facility.
NMEA. Yeah, that would be nice, but I get a substitute in the form of
GPX files from apps like Trails, so not such a big issue. NMEA is much
easier to write quick and dirty code for - esp. since I have lots of
code to do such already written. GPX (XML on a diet) is really not a
good realtime recorded data container (also bandwidth hungry).
I keep meaning to buy a later model Android to get access to deeper
("raw") GPS data as that's an interest of mine.
I use my iPhone or iPad as part of the solution to fly my drones. This
is less than perfect but more than adequate. A lot of electronic
"flight bag" apps work very nicely on iPhone/iPad as well, so well done
industrial apps should be fine. Military? Sure - with the usual
recognition of the limits of commercial appliances in wartime...
--
"2/3 of Donald Trump's wives were immigrants. Proof that we
need immigrants to do jobs that most Americans wouldn't do."
- unknown protester
sms
Dec 22, 2018, 5:39:54 PM12/22/18
to
On 12/22/2018 1:50 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> I use my iPhone or iPad as part of the solution to fly my drones. This
> is less than perfect but more than adequate. A lot of electronic
> "flight bag" apps work very nicely on iPhone/iPad as well, so well done
> industrial apps should be fine. Military? Sure - with the usual
> recognition of the limits of commercial appliances in wartime...
I find that using a remote device for configuration of military devices
> I use my iPhone or iPad as part of the solution to fly my drones. This
> is less than perfect but more than adequate. A lot of electronic
> "flight bag" apps work very nicely on iPhone/iPad as well, so well done
> industrial apps should be fine. Military? Sure - with the usual
> recognition of the limits of commercial appliances in wartime...
is better than trying to integrate a touch screen into the device and
having to worry about IP68, shock resistance, etc.
Alan Browne
Dec 22, 2018, 10:35:38 PM12/22/18
to
not much of a concern. Later iPhones (than mine) are reasonably water
resistant ...
If the interface is there (and usually is not), an iPad or similar would
be quite acceptable. I've found myself in the field (as a marketer)
using a Toshiba laptop to get engineering f/w support from 8000 km away
on military radars w/o much issue. W/o violating export permits for
that matter.
arlen holder
Dec 23, 2018, 2:21:07 AM12/23/18
to
On Sat, 22 Dec 2018 14:05:51 -0500, nospam wrote:
> and the same for ios and android.
I've read everything I can find on the "differences" between iOS and
> and the same for ios and android.
Android, where, in the end, it boils down to just three things (IMHO),
which I corrected slightly based on erudite input from sms.
o Hardware (about the same, Apple slightly less functional in general)
o Apps (about the same for Mom & Pop - not even close for power users)
o Storage (a completely different paradigm - no way to compare logically)
> average consumers absolutely are interested in file transfer and
> medical applications, both of which are *easier* on ios than on
> android.
As with James Comey & the AT&T Marketing exec who called me,
I have to wonder:
o Are you really as uneducated and naive as what you say indicates?
o Or, are you yet again brazenly fabricating imaginary iOS functionality?
HINT: *Your claimed iOS functionality _never_ once shows up!*
Never.
Not even once.
nospam
Dec 23, 2018, 8:44:03 AM12/23/18
to
In article <pvnd12$3ig$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
> o Hardware (about the same, Apple slightly less functional in general)
> o Apps (about the same for Mom & Pop - not even close for power users)
> o Storage (a completely different paradigm - no way to compare logically)
all false.
> o Hardware (about the same, Apple slightly less functional in general)
> o Apps (about the same for Mom & Pop - not even close for power users)
> o Storage (a completely different paradigm - no way to compare logically)
sms
Dec 23, 2018, 2:37:13 PM12/23/18
to
On 12/22/2018 7:35 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
<snip>
> If the interface is there (and usually is not), an iPad or similar would
> be quite acceptable. I've found myself in the field (as a marketer)
> using a Toshiba laptop to get engineering f/w support from 8000 km away
> on military radars w/o much issue. W/o violating export permits for
> that matter.
The stuff I have been mainly working on requires the ability to look at
the NMEA data in order to do configuration and to optimize placement. We
also need to be able to install applications onto the device. So we
cannot use iOS devices for the configuration and setup. It's no big
deal. Even an unactivated Android prepaid phone, that costs $20, is
sufficient
<https://shop.straighttalk.com/shop/en/straighttalk/phones/st-zte-zfive-2>.
It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS. Android is an
open platform that is suitable for a lot more industrial, commercial,
medical, etc. uses because apps can be directly loaded and because the
operating system is not as restrictive when it comes to moving data in
and out of the device.
<snip>
> If the interface is there (and usually is not), an iPad or similar would
> be quite acceptable. I've found myself in the field (as a marketer)
> using a Toshiba laptop to get engineering f/w support from 8000 km away
> on military radars w/o much issue. W/o violating export permits for
> that matter.
the NMEA data in order to do configuration and to optimize placement. We
also need to be able to install applications onto the device. So we
cannot use iOS devices for the configuration and setup. It's no big
deal. Even an unactivated Android prepaid phone, that costs $20, is
sufficient
<https://shop.straighttalk.com/shop/en/straighttalk/phones/st-zte-zfive-2>.
It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS. Android is an
open platform that is suitable for a lot more industrial, commercial,
medical, etc. uses because apps can be directly loaded and because the
operating system is not as restrictive when it comes to moving data in
and out of the device.
nospam
Dec 23, 2018, 3:18:11 PM12/23/18
to
In article <pvoo57$eop$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
false.
custom apps can be directly loaded on ios *without* going through the
app store and there is *zero* restriction about what data can be moved
into or out of a device.
the only thing you can't do is use raw nmea data. that's *it*.
custom apps can be directly loaded on ios *without* going through the
app store and there is *zero* restriction about what data can be moved
into or out of a device.
the only thing you can't do is use raw nmea data. that's *it*.
arlen holder
Dec 23, 2018, 4:48:59 PM12/23/18
to
On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 15:18:09 -0500, nospam wrote:
> custom apps can be directly loaded on ios *without* going through the
> app store
As you know, I've easily & freely loaded custom apps over USB on Android:
> custom apps can be directly loaded on ios *without* going through the
> app store
<http://www.bild.me/bild.php?file=4728196custom01.jpg>
Where loading custom apps on Android takes nothing but the free IDE
and a USB cable.
Tell us all, nospam, how *easy* & *free* is it for an average person
(which is what I purport to be) to load similar custom apps on iOS iPads?
nospam
Dec 23, 2018, 4:55:56 PM12/23/18
to
In article <pvovsa$osl$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
and there are other ways that don't require an ide.
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
> Where loading custom apps on Android takes nothing but the free IDE
> and a USB cable.
exactly the same for ios, except that the usb cable is optional.
> Where loading custom apps on Android takes nothing but the free IDE
> and a USB cable.
and there are other ways that don't require an ide.
Alan Browne
Dec 23, 2018, 5:29:01 PM12/23/18
to
On 2018-12-23 14:37, sms wrote:
>
> It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS. Android is an
> open platform that is suitable for a lot more industrial, commercial,
> medical, etc. uses because apps can be directly loaded and because the
> operating system is not as restrictive when it comes to moving data in
> and out of the device.
Sorta true. A lot of companies make their own iOS apps w/o publishing
>
> It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS. Android is an
> open platform that is suitable for a lot more industrial, commercial,
> medical, etc. uses because apps can be directly loaded and because the
> operating system is not as restrictive when it comes to moving data in
> and out of the device.
them via the Apple Store. Apple have a limited distribution model for
that. So - that should not be an issue at all.
Though not sure why GPX (as ugly as it is) won't do for whatever it is
you're doing. Various GPS apps on iOS output in a variant or other of GPX.
Here's what that crap looks like...
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no"?>
<gpx xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1" creator="GaiaGPS"
version="1.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"
xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1
http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd">
<trk>
<name>1100 Chemin Remembrance à Chalet du Mont-Royal, Montréal, QC,
Canada</name>
<trkseg>
</trkseg>
<trkseg>
<trkpt lat="45.503843" lon="-73.586860">
<ele>195.0</ele>
<time>2018-11-04T15:00:08Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="45.503868" lon="-73.586975">
<ele>200.0</ele>
<time>2018-11-04T15:00:17Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="45.503861" lon="-73.587050">
<ele>200.0</ele>
<time>2018-11-04T15:00:20Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="45.503759" lon="-73.587406">
<ele>202.0</ele>
<time>2018-11-04T15:00:38Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="45.503680" lon="-73.587538">
<ele>202.0</ele>
<time>2018-11-04T15:00:46Z</time>
</trkpt>
arlen holder
Dec 23, 2018, 7:27:31 PM12/23/18
to
On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 11:37:08 -0800, sms wrote:
> It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS.
> Android is an open platform...
> It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS.
This statement by sms is easily verified since it's a fact.
Facts are funny that way.
Direct quote:
"Apple's main goal is to have full control of all its software┬ source
code. Currently, developers who are not employed at Apple have only partial
access to elements of this platform. This setup was originally backed by
Steve Job's authoritative stance and the setup of the company. In
particular, Apple's mastermind made several negative remarks regarding
Android's complete open source, and always, essentially, chose the exact
opposite strategy."
<https://applikeysolutions.com/blog/7-differences-between-ios-and-android-app-development>
arlen holder
Dec 23, 2018, 7:30:58 PM12/23/18
to
On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 16:55:54 -0500, nospam wrote:
> exactly the same for ios, except that the usb cable is optional.
Hehhehheh....
> exactly the same for ios, except that the usb cable is optional.
*What's interesting about you Apple Apologists is that you _hate_ facts.*
I knew you'd spew some sort of bullshit to cover up the prison-like closed
nature of iOS app development versus the wide-open free nature of Android
app development, even for loading of your own customized apps.
Because facts are anathema to you, your record is worse than the monkey.
The facts are that there is an astoundingly huge differences in lack of
openness & freeness in personal iOS app development versus personal Android
app development.
That's a well known fact (see details below).
The fact you don't like that fact doesn't change that fact being that fact.
> and there are other ways that don't require an ide.
*You Apple Apologists have a huge weakness - and that weakness is facts.*
I knew you'd dance around the facts which is, to sms' point, that Android
app development is hugely more open and free than iOS app development,
particularly for the one-off custom apps that a basic Windows user might
wish to write.
HINT: Most use Objective-C/Swift, Cocoa Touch, & Xcode for iOS versus Java
or Kotlin, & Android Studio freeware for Android.
DOUBLEHINT: Bearing in mind the Windows PC has something like well over 90%
of the market share for home users, Xcode only runs on Mac OS X and iOS
while Android Studio, to sms' point, runs on anything you want to run it
on, whether that's Windows, Linux, or Mac OS - and you can't even download
XCode without informing Apple who you are - just to develop custom apps
that you want to put on your own device!
TRIPLEHINT: Android allows far more access to the system's inner workings,
which lets you create things you just can't do on iOS (which is why app
functionality on Android far surpasses that of iOS).
TRIPLEHINT: While for professional developers, cost is no object, let's not
even get started on iOS' ridiculous subscription model, even for a mom and
pop setup, where you have to pay FOUR TIMES the one-time cost of Google's
play store upload fee, every single year, year, after year, after year,
just for the privilege of uploading your custom app to the iOS app store.
arlen holder
Dec 23, 2018, 7:38:23 PM12/23/18
to
On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 08:44:01 -0500, nospam wrote:
>> o Hardware (about the same, Apple slightly less functional in general)
>> o Apps (about the same for Mom & Pop - not even close for power users)
>> o Storage (a completely different paradigm - no way to compare logically)
>
> all false.
I've been studying you Apple Apologists for many years.
>> o Hardware (about the same, Apple slightly less functional in general)
>> o Apps (about the same for Mom & Pop - not even close for power users)
>> o Storage (a completely different paradigm - no way to compare logically)
>
> all false.
You're not like normal adults.
What's amazing about Apple Apologists is that you're entirely fact free.
Facts have no place to exist in your entirely imaginary belief system.
You deny the obvious - which makes your record worse than the monkey.
Meanwhile, I've _never_ been wrong(note1) since I only speak facts.
Facts are funny that way, just as adults are funny that way.
--
Note1: Out of thousands of posts, there _must_ be a case where I've been
wrong with facts simply because I'm human - but it's so rare that the best
you can find is a typo or two. Meanwhile, your record, nospam, of being
correct, is worse than that of the monkey - partly becuase you basically
deny almost everytyhing - even that which Apple themselves admits to.
nospam
Dec 23, 2018, 7:54:30 PM12/23/18
to
In article <pvp9c1$8nv$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
there is *very* little that can be done on android that can't be done
on ios. there are also things that can be done on ios that *can't* be
done on android. choose the best tool for the job.
raw nmea is one example, which affects almost nobody.
location services on ios has better integration and overall lower power
consumption than android, which means the apps are better and with less
impact to battery life.
i've written apps on both platforms. you haven't (other than horribly
fumbling with a couple of android tutorials), so you're not in a
position to comment.
> HINT: Most use Objective-C/Swift, Cocoa Touch, & Xcode for iOS versus Java
> or Kotlin, & Android Studio freeware for Android.
that's a completely meaningless 'hint'.
two different platforms using different languages and frameworks.
there's nothing surprising about that.
> DOUBLEHINT: Bearing in mind the Windows PC has something like well over 90%
> of the market share for home users,
another wrong 'hint'.
> Xcode only runs on Mac OS X and iOS
also wrong. xcode only runs on mac os. it does not run on ios.
> while Android Studio, to sms' point, runs on anything you want to run it
> on, whether that's Windows, Linux, or Mac OS - and you can't even download
> XCode without informing Apple who you are - just to develop custom apps
> that you want to put on your own device!
wrong on that too.
tl;dr you are clueless.
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
> I knew you'd dance around the facts which is, to sms' point, that Android
> app development is hugely more open and free than iOS app development,
> particularly for the one-off custom apps that a basic Windows user might
> wish to write.
ios is not 'hugely more open'.
> I knew you'd dance around the facts which is, to sms' point, that Android
> app development is hugely more open and free than iOS app development,
> particularly for the one-off custom apps that a basic Windows user might
> wish to write.
there is *very* little that can be done on android that can't be done
on ios. there are also things that can be done on ios that *can't* be
done on android. choose the best tool for the job.
raw nmea is one example, which affects almost nobody.
location services on ios has better integration and overall lower power
consumption than android, which means the apps are better and with less
impact to battery life.
i've written apps on both platforms. you haven't (other than horribly
fumbling with a couple of android tutorials), so you're not in a
position to comment.
> HINT: Most use Objective-C/Swift, Cocoa Touch, & Xcode for iOS versus Java
> or Kotlin, & Android Studio freeware for Android.
two different platforms using different languages and frameworks.
there's nothing surprising about that.
> DOUBLEHINT: Bearing in mind the Windows PC has something like well over 90%
> of the market share for home users,
> Xcode only runs on Mac OS X and iOS
> while Android Studio, to sms' point, runs on anything you want to run it
> on, whether that's Windows, Linux, or Mac OS - and you can't even download
> XCode without informing Apple who you are - just to develop custom apps
> that you want to put on your own device!
tl;dr you are clueless.
arlen holder
Dec 23, 2018, 11:08:10 PM12/23/18
to
On Sun, 23 Dec 2018 19:54:29 -0500, nospam wrote:
> there is *very* little that can be done on android that can't be done
> on ios. there are also things that can be done on ios that *can't* be
> done on android. choose the best tool for the job.
I've studied you Apologists for years, where your biggest weakness is fact.
> there is *very* little that can be done on android that can't be done
> on ios. there are also things that can be done on ios that *can't* be
> done on android. choose the best tool for the job.
*You Apple Apologists have absolutely no defense to facts.*
Facts are you fundamental weakness.
You're like children that way in that you're not at all like normal adults.
o What are the common well-verified psychological traits of the Apple Apologists?
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/18ARDsEOPzM/veU8FwAjBQAJ>
We've proved time and again, two fundamental facts:
1. There is zero app functionality on iOS that isn't already on Android
2. There is tons of app functionality on Android that isn't on iOS
The examples abound, where you Apologists are immune to fact.
o Is there a single bit of functionality on iOS that isn't already on Android?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/trNDEOFg-A4/RTkbXrngBgAJ>
> raw nmea is one example, which affects almost nobody.
functionalities on Android not on iOS, where even if Apple did half of them
(which they didn't), you'd still _start_ at 50 and then count _up_ from
there.
o How hard would it be to name a hundred functional things Android apps do that iOS apps just can't do?
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/OAls8ZO1dCI/L2xeT4ktBQAJ>
I personally could list so many things that I do every day on Android that
are impossible on iOS (all by its itty bitty self non jailbroken) that it's
not even a question that the app functionality on iOS is woefully deficient
compared to that of Android.
o It's a fact iOS devices can't even graph Wi-Fi signal strength over time
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/PZuec56EWB0/FmsbIqpPBwAJ>
o After all these years, is there still no New Pipe or Sky Tube functionality on iOS?
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/3bkestmymAA/tJXJ1m-gDAAJ>
o Name a single iOS app functionality that you can get for a buck, that isn't already on Android, for free
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/aUyeuaPI9pc/rZw1O-7XAwAJ>
o What is the free Tor Browser Bundle app functionality that is closest to the real thing?
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/A8yry1XPCxI/Hb1d67uaBAAJ>
o Does iOS have the capability to list all the installed apps into an editable file, sms, & email?
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/D_MRi7yx_2c/KopyM5fJBAAJ>
o Does iOS have basic *accurate* address lookup anonymously from the stellar Google Maps DB API?
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/zMyax-Exgdw/61onQ8lWBAAJ>
The list of basic app functionaligyh on Android that isn't on iOS is so
long that it's boring to just find the URLs to prove the point.
Meanwhile, you've _never_ even once been able to find a single app
functionality on iOS that isn't _already_ on Android.
Not even one.
The difference is astounding, where, the fact you deny facts is why you're
a canonical Apple Apologists.
Facts have no place to fit in your imaginary belief system.
o Why do iOS apologists incessantly fabricate fictional iOS functionality?
o <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/K_yBNZiPFYo/yekUPvIXAwAJ>
> location services on ios has better integration and overall lower power
> consumption than android, which means the apps are better and with less
> impact to battery life.
Just one believable reliable cite.
Just one.
> i've written apps on both platforms. you haven't (other than horribly
> fumbling with a couple of android tutorials), so you're not in a
> position to comment.
You do realize, nospam, how childish that statement is, given that I
already _proved_ what sms said, which is that Android is hugely more open
and free than is iOS app development.
Take just for one example, that Xcode *requires* you to regeister with
Apple that you're coding even if you want to develop your own apps for your
own device, and that Xcode only works on iOS & Mac OS X while Android
Studio doesn't have any of those idiotic prison-like restrictions.
> two different platforms using different languages and frameworks.
> there's nothing surprising about that.
computer out there (Windows, Linux, and Mac) while the iOS development
environment works on only a teeny tiny portion of them (Mac & iOS).
You can deny obvious facts all you want, nospam,
*Denying obvious facts doesn't change that the facts are still obvious.*
*It proves, yet again, facts don't fit in your imaginary belief system.*
> also wrong. xcode only runs on mac os. it does not run on ios.
I stand corrected as I misinterpreted this specific statement
when I had researched my facts - since I never make this stuff up
like you do all the time:
"Xcode is an integrated development environment (IDE) that
consists of set of software development tools which are designed
by Apple specifically for developing software on Mac OS X and iOS."
<https://www.alltechbuzz.net/install-xcode-on-windows-for-ios-sdk/>
The fact is that it's even worse than what I had said, since XCode _only_
works on the Mac and on nothing else (sans emulation, which would just be
idiocy on top of crazy).
<https://developer.apple.com/support/xcode/>
The point is that it's so obvious how _restricted_ iOS app development is
compared to Android App Development that only you Apologists would
deny that which is obvious to all normal rational sentient adults.
<https://developer.apple.com/xcode/>
>> while Android Studio, to sms' point, runs on anything you want to run it
>> on, whether that's Windows, Linux, or Mac OS - and you can't even download
>> XCode without informing Apple who you are - just to develop custom apps
>> that you want to put on your own device!
>
> wrong on that too.
> tl;dr you are clueless.
You have no defense to facts.
Like the response of a child, your response to facts never changes.
You can't back up a _single_ denial of facts that you repeatedly claim.
I always have to wonder why you Apologists are not like normal adults.
I think you're just not used to dealing with facts since your belief system
appears to be akin to a "religious" belief system.
*As such, your belief system is completely immune to facts.*
Facts have no room to fit into the Apologists' imaginary belief system.
In summary, sms brought up a good point which is that the iOS development
environment is completely restricted in almost every way possible compared
to the wide open development environment of Android.
That you don't comprehend that obvious fact doesn't negate it's a fact.
It simply means your belief system is immune to obvious facts.
arlen holder
Dec 23, 2018, 11:15:08 PM12/23/18
to
On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 04:08:10 -0000 (UTC), arlen holder wrote:
> Take just for one example, that Xcode *requires* you to regeister with
> Apple that you're coding even if you want to develop your own apps for your
> own device, and that Xcode only works on iOS & Mac OS X while Android
> Studio doesn't have any of those idiotic prison-like restrictions.
Ooooooooops......,there's a typo that I forgot to pull out in that quote
> Take just for one example, that Xcode *requires* you to regeister with
> Apple that you're coding even if you want to develop your own apps for your
> own device, and that Xcode only works on iOS & Mac OS X while Android
> Studio doesn't have any of those idiotic prison-like restrictions.
above which supported sms' logical assessment that the Android developoment
environment is more open than the iOS development environment.
Xcode only works on the Mac so it's even _worse_ than I said it was.
Meanwhile, Android Studio works in the real world
(i.e., Windows, Linux, and Mac).
It's a basic and _obvious_ fact that every logical adult would agree with
sms that iOS app development is less open than Android app development,
where this is only the tip of the iceberg that the IDE only works on an
Apple OS.
HINT: It's more proof that Apple products don't work in the real world.
Only Apple Apologists deny what is blatantly obvious to normal adults.
nospam
Dec 24, 2018, 12:21:49 AM12/24/18
to
In article <pvpm39$uj2$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
> and that Xcode only works on iOS & Mac OS X while Android
> Studio doesn't have any of those idiotic prison-like restrictions.
also false.
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
> Take just for one example, that Xcode *requires* you to regeister with
> Apple that you're coding even if you want to develop your own apps for your
> own device,
false.
> Take just for one example, that Xcode *requires* you to regeister with
> Apple that you're coding even if you want to develop your own apps for your
> own device,
> and that Xcode only works on iOS & Mac OS X while Android
> Studio doesn't have any of those idiotic prison-like restrictions.
arlen holder
Dec 24, 2018, 12:42:37 AM12/24/18
to
On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 00:22:06 -0500, nospam wrote:
>> Take just for one example, that Xcode *requires* you to regeister with
>> Apple that you're coding even if you want to develop your own apps for your
>> own device,
>
> false.
Let's see how you respond to a basic adult question, nospam.
>> Take just for one example, that Xcode *requires* you to regeister with
>> Apple that you're coding even if you want to develop your own apps for your
>> own device,
>
> false.
How are you going to download Xcode without giving Apple your AppleID?
>> and that Xcode only works on iOS & Mac OS X while Android
>> Studio doesn't have any of those idiotic prison-like restrictions.
>
> also false.
Apple Apologists constantly prove to be.
We covered the platforms that Xcode runs on, where it's even _worse_ than I
had originally said when backing up what sms accurately summarized as
Android app development is more open than iOS app development.
The fact is that the standard Android IDE works in the real world.
The standard Apple IDE does not.
HINT: *Even Apple doesn't deny that the real world is "not supported".*
You can deny the obvious facts all you want.
But your denial of the facts doesn't change that they are still the facts.
nospam
Dec 24, 2018, 5:06:37 AM12/24/18
to
In article <pvprkb$6o6$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
> How are you going to download Xcode without giving Apple your AppleID?
an apple id is not 'registering with apple'.
everyone who uses an ios device already has an apple id, just as those
who use an android device has a google id.
although it's possible to use either without that, it's a significant
hassle with zero benefit and substantial drawbacks. for example, apps
cannot be downloaded from the respective app stores.
however, for those overwhelmed with fear and paranoia, create an apple
id using a fake name.
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
> >> Take just for one example, that Xcode *requires* you to regeister with
> >> Apple that you're coding even if you want to develop your own apps for your
> >> own device,
> >
> > false.
>
> Let's see how you respond to a basic adult question, nospam.
let's see you cease being an ignorant troll.
> >> Take just for one example, that Xcode *requires* you to regeister with
> >> Apple that you're coding even if you want to develop your own apps for your
> >> own device,
> >
> > false.
>
> Let's see how you respond to a basic adult question, nospam.
> How are you going to download Xcode without giving Apple your AppleID?
everyone who uses an ios device already has an apple id, just as those
who use an android device has a google id.
although it's possible to use either without that, it's a significant
hassle with zero benefit and substantial drawbacks. for example, apps
cannot be downloaded from the respective app stores.
however, for those overwhelmed with fear and paranoia, create an apple
id using a fake name.
sms
Dec 24, 2018, 8:25:37 AM12/24/18
to
On 12/23/2018 2:28 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2018-12-23 14:37, sms wrote:
>>
>> It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS. Android is an
>> open platform that is suitable for a lot more industrial, commercial,
>> medical, etc. uses because apps can be directly loaded and because the
>> operating system is not as restrictive when it comes to moving data in
>> and out of the device.
>
> Sorta true. A lot of companies make their own iOS apps w/o publishing
> them via the Apple Store. Apple have a limited distribution model for
> that. So - that should not be an issue at all.
Yes, "sorta true" is accurate <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204460>.
> On 2018-12-23 14:37, sms wrote:
>>
>> It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS. Android is an
>> open platform that is suitable for a lot more industrial, commercial,
>> medical, etc. uses because apps can be directly loaded and because the
>> operating system is not as restrictive when it comes to moving data in
>> and out of the device.
>
> Sorta true. A lot of companies make their own iOS apps w/o publishing
> them via the Apple Store. Apple have a limited distribution model for
> that. So - that should not be an issue at all.
My wife's company has custom apps for their corporate iPhones, but that
capability is not available for the individual user. It used to be, kind
of, if the device was jailbroken, but that is going away
<https://www.slashgear.com/cydia-paid-store-shutdown-could-signal-iphone-jailbreakings-end-16558103/>.
nospam
Dec 24, 2018, 10:10:40 AM12/24/18
to
In article <pvqmog$997$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
individual users have always been able to write apps for their own
devices.
> It used to be, kind
> of, if the device was jailbroken, but that is going away
also wrong.
jailbreaking is not required for individual app development and only
cydia is going away, not jailbreaking itself.
<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS. Android is an
> >> open platform that is suitable for a lot more industrial, commercial,
> >> medical, etc. uses because apps can be directly loaded and because the
> >> operating system is not as restrictive when it comes to moving data in
> >> and out of the device.
> >
> > Sorta true. A lot of companies make their own iOS apps w/o publishing
> > them via the Apple Store. Apple have a limited distribution model for
> > that. So - that should not be an issue at all.
>
> Yes, "sorta true" is accurate <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204460>.
>
> My wife's company has custom apps for their corporate iPhones, but that
> capability is not available for the individual user.
enterprise deployment is not, but that doesn't matter.
> >>
> >> It's a fundamental difference between Android and iOS. Android is an
> >> open platform that is suitable for a lot more industrial, commercial,
> >> medical, etc. uses because apps can be directly loaded and because the
> >> operating system is not as restrictive when it comes to moving data in
> >> and out of the device.
> >
> > Sorta true. A lot of companies make their own iOS apps w/o publishing
> > them via the Apple Store. Apple have a limited distribution model for
> > that. So - that should not be an issue at all.
>
> Yes, "sorta true" is accurate <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204460>.
>
> My wife's company has custom apps for their corporate iPhones, but that
> capability is not available for the individual user.
individual users have always been able to write apps for their own
devices.
> It used to be, kind
> of, if the device was jailbroken, but that is going away
jailbreaking is not required for individual app development and only
cydia is going away, not jailbreaking itself.
arlen holder
Dec 24, 2018, 11:57:25 AM12/24/18
to
On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 05:06:36 -0500, nospam wrote:
> let's see you cease being an ignorant troll.
Hehhehheh...
> let's see you cease being an ignorant troll.
You have no adult response to facts.
When I (easily) prove your statements dead wrong on facts,
you call me a troll.
That's _exacty_ the response we expect from Jolly Roger, Lewis, BK, etc.
*You Apologists have proven you have _no adult defense_ to facts.*
>> How are you going to download Xcode without giving Apple your AppleID?
>
> an apple id is not 'registering with apple'.
The point that sms made was that the Android app development environment is
more open than is the iOS development environment, where I provided plenty
of examples of why the Android app development environment is vastly more
open than the extremely restricted iOS development environment, not the
least of which is that Xcode doesn't even work in the real world for
Christs' sake.
*Apple themselves says Xcode in the real world is "not supported".*
> everyone who uses an ios device already has an apple id, just as those
> who use an android device has a google id.
an Android phone, there is no reason you need any user has to have what you
called a "google id" on Android since they can just load their sd card from
their prior phone and re-install almost all the apps without needing Google
Play (which also enables them to have the SAME versions they had before,
which, in both iOS and Android, is generally a good thing to NOT have the
latest versions).
By not having what you call a "google id", you also don't have an Advertiser ID.
By loading your apps from your SD card, you don't tell Google anything.
(Settings have to be set though to eliminate play store scan shenanigans.)
On iOS, non jailbroken, not only MUST you have an Apple ID, but you also
MUST have an Advertiser ID, and worse, every app you download MUST be
associated with an Apple ID, and worse, you can't even get Xcode without
giving Apple that Apple ID.
NONE of that is needed for Android.
To sms' point...the facts are clear to all but the Apologists that...
*_Everything_ about iOS app development is restrictive compared to Android.*
> although it's possible to use either without that, it's a significant
> hassle with zero benefit and substantial drawbacks. for example, apps
> cannot be downloaded from the respective app stores.
There are substantial benefits to re-using your own APKs on all new devices
and after factory resets and on all the devices in your household.
Huge benefits.
Besides, there's nothing stopping you from just downloading the APK on your
desktop and loading that onto your phone if you want the newest version
(although the newest version of apps is often no better than the older
version that you were familiar with).
Yet again, to sms' point, no matter where you look, EVERYTHING about the
app development environment from start to finish is more open on Android
than on iOS.
*You Apologists argue against facts that are obvious to sentient adults.*
> however, for those overwhelmed with fear and paranoia, create an apple
> id using a fake name.
that you MUST provide "an identity" to Apple, where, you conveniently omit
the fact that the Apple ID being given to Apple is just an Xcode datapoint,
where you omit that Apple _already_ maintains, almost certainly, a database
of information about that Apple ID that is completely unrelated to Xcode
app development.
HINT: Apple is controlling many underlying OS processes that are ASSOCIATED
with that Apple ID, not the least of which are all the apps associated with
that Apple ID, such as, oh, say, medical and personal related apps.
Hence it's nice to see that you combined FEAR into your response,
because it's clear that Apple owners are not only driven by fear, but they
are likely almost completely ignorant that Apple almost certainly maintains
a database of information about each and every Apple ID that is completely
unrelated to the Xcode development environment - and yet - now all that
data is instantly associated with your Xcode download.
The point is that none of this happens when you download the Android
development environment.
Only you Apologists dispute facts that are obvious to sentient adults.
The fact is that the Android development environment is vastly more open
and less restrictive than the iOS development environment (and it's even
far less expensive, although for a professional developer, having to pay
forty times the Google fee over the next decade is probably not a huge
additional expense for them for the upload privileges to the app stores).
In summary, the facts show what is obvious to sentient adults like sms:
*Of the two app-development environments, Android is far more open.*
Put another way, it's obvious to all but the fact-free Apologists that...
*The iOS app-development environment has gotchas in every direction.*
nospam
Dec 24, 2018, 12:42:21 PM12/24/18
to
In article <pvr35j$4vm$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
> The point that sms made was that the Android app development environment is
> more open than is the iOS development environment, where I provided plenty
> of examples of why the Android app development environment is vastly more
> open than the extremely restricted iOS development environment, not the
> least of which is that Xcode doesn't even work in the real world for
> Christs' sake.
no, the point that sms *tried* to make (and failed) was that there was
no way to deploy non-store apps for custom projects, which is
completely false.
in addition to enterprise deployment, which would apply in his case,
anyone can write apps for their own devices. that's how developers
develop their apps.
since he claims to be working on apps for military use, you can be sure
that the military wants a legitimate developer who is not hiding their
real identity from anyone.
> *Apple themselves says Xcode in the real world is "not supported".*
no they don't. more of your bullshit.
not only is it fully supported but apple offers *free* *classes*.
> > everyone who uses an ios device already has an apple id, just as those
> > who use an android device has a google id.
>
> While most Android users blindly press the "Next" buttons when setting up
> an Android phone, there is no reason you need any user has to have what you
> called a "google id" on Android since they can just load their sd card from
> their prior phone and re-install almost all the apps without needing Google
> Play (which also enables them to have the SAME versions they had before,
> which, in both iOS and Android, is generally a good thing to NOT have the
> latest versions).
they 'can' but nobody in their right mind would actually do that.
> By not having what you call a "google id", you also don't have an Advertiser
> ID.
> By loading your apps from your SD card, you don't tell Google anything.
> (Settings have to be set though to eliminate play store scan shenanigans.)
absolutely false.
no matter where anyone gets apps, including f-droid, the analytics in
them will phone home, and that's *in* *addition* to what android itself
reports back.
<https://developers.google.com/analytics/solutions/mobile>
<https://developers.google.com/analytics/devguides/collection/firebase/a
ndroid/>
<https://firebase.google.com>
google collects a *lot* of data about app use and the phone itself and
there's *no* way out of that other than a custom rom and custom apps.
> On iOS, non jailbroken, not only MUST you have an Apple ID, but you also
> MUST have an Advertiser ID, and worse, every app you download MUST be
> associated with an Apple ID, and worse, you can't even get Xcode without
> giving Apple that Apple ID.
who cares. the advertising id not tied to anything that uniquely
identifies the user and can be reset at any time for any reason.
for an apple id, use a fake name if you're that paranoid.
legitimate developers aren't interested in hiding, certainly not from
apple, nor can they, because if they did, they could not be paid for
any app sales.
> NONE of that is needed for Android.
actually it is.
there are ways around it, but there is *no* reason to do so.
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
> >> How are you going to download Xcode without giving Apple your AppleID?
> >
> > an apple id is not 'registering with apple'.
>
> Now you're playing your silly semantic games.
it ain't me who is playing games.
> >> How are you going to download Xcode without giving Apple your AppleID?
> >
> > an apple id is not 'registering with apple'.
>
> Now you're playing your silly semantic games.
> The point that sms made was that the Android app development environment is
> more open than is the iOS development environment, where I provided plenty
> of examples of why the Android app development environment is vastly more
> open than the extremely restricted iOS development environment, not the
> least of which is that Xcode doesn't even work in the real world for
> Christs' sake.
no way to deploy non-store apps for custom projects, which is
completely false.
in addition to enterprise deployment, which would apply in his case,
anyone can write apps for their own devices. that's how developers
develop their apps.
since he claims to be working on apps for military use, you can be sure
that the military wants a legitimate developer who is not hiding their
real identity from anyone.
> *Apple themselves says Xcode in the real world is "not supported".*
not only is it fully supported but apple offers *free* *classes*.
> > everyone who uses an ios device already has an apple id, just as those
> > who use an android device has a google id.
>
> While most Android users blindly press the "Next" buttons when setting up
> an Android phone, there is no reason you need any user has to have what you
> called a "google id" on Android since they can just load their sd card from
> their prior phone and re-install almost all the apps without needing Google
> Play (which also enables them to have the SAME versions they had before,
> which, in both iOS and Android, is generally a good thing to NOT have the
> latest versions).
> By not having what you call a "google id", you also don't have an Advertiser
> ID.
> By loading your apps from your SD card, you don't tell Google anything.
> (Settings have to be set though to eliminate play store scan shenanigans.)
no matter where anyone gets apps, including f-droid, the analytics in
them will phone home, and that's *in* *addition* to what android itself
reports back.
<https://developers.google.com/analytics/solutions/mobile>
<https://developers.google.com/analytics/devguides/collection/firebase/a
ndroid/>
<https://firebase.google.com>
google collects a *lot* of data about app use and the phone itself and
there's *no* way out of that other than a custom rom and custom apps.
> On iOS, non jailbroken, not only MUST you have an Apple ID, but you also
> MUST have an Advertiser ID, and worse, every app you download MUST be
> associated with an Apple ID, and worse, you can't even get Xcode without
> giving Apple that Apple ID.
identifies the user and can be reset at any time for any reason.
for an apple id, use a fake name if you're that paranoid.
legitimate developers aren't interested in hiding, certainly not from
apple, nor can they, because if they did, they could not be paid for
any app sales.
> NONE of that is needed for Android.
there are ways around it, but there is *no* reason to do so.
arlen holder
Dec 24, 2018, 6:30:43 PM12/24/18
to
On Mon, 24 Dec 2018 12:42:20 -0500, nospam wrote:
>> *Apple themselves says Xcode in the real world is "not supported".*
>
> no they don't. more of your bullshit.
>
> not only is it fully supported but apple offers *free* *classes*.
Facts nospam.
>> *Apple themselves says Xcode in the real world is "not supported".*
>
> no they don't. more of your bullshit.
>
> not only is it fully supported but apple offers *free* *classes*.
Facts.
Fact is, Apple does not support Xcode running native on Windows.
A Windows Xcode port is "not available" and "not supported".
The real world includes Windows computers, nospam.
Lots and lots of them, in fact.
You may hate that fact, nospam, but that doesn't change the fact.
All the free classes in the world won't change that fact, nospam.
You can (and always will) dance around facts, nospam.
But you can't change the fact that you hate facts.
When you compare the two app development environments, almost everything,
if not everything about the iOS app development environment is a Draconian
prison compared to the wide open environment of Android.
You, nospam, hate the fact that the Android environment is more open.
*But the fact you hate that fact doesn't change that the fact is a fact.*
sms
Dec 25, 2018, 3:19:08 AM12/25/18
to
On 12/24/2018 3:30 PM, arlen holder wrote:
> Fact is, Apple does not support Xcode running native on Windows.
> A Windows Xcode port is "not available" and "not supported".
There are some workarounds to run Xcode on a Windows box, but it won't
> Fact is, Apple does not support Xcode running native on Windows.
> A Windows Xcode port is "not available" and "not supported".
really be running on Windows. You can run an OS-X virtual machine on a
Windows box either locally or remotely, or of course you can build a
Hackintosh. <https://codewithchris.com/xcode-for-windows/> and
<http://www.thomashanning.com/xcode-for-windows/>.
Of course it would be easier, and probably no more expensive, to just
buy a used Mac Mini Core i7/16GB for around $400.
nospam
Dec 25, 2018, 3:30:02 AM12/25/18
to
In article <pvsp5r$508$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
ios development can be done in visual studio, although final deployment
will need a mac.
> but it won't
> really be running on Windows.
yes it very definitely will.
> You can run an OS-X virtual machine on a
> Windows box either locally or remotely, or of course you can build a
> Hackintosh.
both terrible ideas.
ios development can be done in visual studio, although final deployment
will need a mac.
> but it won't
> really be running on Windows.
> You can run an OS-X virtual machine on a
> Windows box either locally or remotely, or of course you can build a
> Hackintosh.
sms
Dec 25, 2018, 12:11:09 PM12/25/18
to
On 12/24/2018 3:30 PM, arlen holder wrote:
> When you compare the two app development environments, almost
> everything, if not everything about the iOS app development
> environment is a Draconian prison compared to the wide open
> environment of Android.
If you're an app developer you always want to do the iOS app first
> everything, if not everything about the iOS app development
> environment is a Draconian prison compared to the wide open
> environment of Android.
because it's much more profitable. iOS users are more willing to ante up
for paid apps, whereas Android users expect more apps to be
ad-supported. I know that a lot of Android users have never paid for an App!
Personally I have several paid apps. Torque Pro, OSMAND, and CoPilot.
The latter two work on both iOS and Android platforms with one payment.
Torque is not available for iOS because of operating system limitations.
nospam
Dec 25, 2018, 12:22:09 PM12/25/18
to
In article <pvtobc$1co$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> iOS users are more willing to ante up
> for paid apps, whereas Android users expect more apps to be
> ad-supported.
mostly true.
> I know that a lot of Android users have never paid for an App!
a lot of ios users have never paid for an app either.
> Personally I have several paid apps. Torque Pro, OSMAND, and CoPilot.
> The latter two work on both iOS and Android platforms with one payment.
> Torque is not available for iOS because of operating system limitations.
absolutely false.
there is *no* os limitation whatsoever preventing torque or any other
obd app on ios.
torque is not on ios because the developer chose not to bother writing
it for ios. it's as simple as that.
there are *numerous* obd apps on ios, many of which are much better
than torque.
<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> If you're an app developer you always want to do the iOS app first
> because it's much more profitable.
it's also much easier.
>
> If you're an app developer you always want to do the iOS app first
> because it's much more profitable.
> iOS users are more willing to ante up
> for paid apps, whereas Android users expect more apps to be
> ad-supported.
> I know that a lot of Android users have never paid for an App!
> Personally I have several paid apps. Torque Pro, OSMAND, and CoPilot.
> The latter two work on both iOS and Android platforms with one payment.
> Torque is not available for iOS because of operating system limitations.
there is *no* os limitation whatsoever preventing torque or any other
obd app on ios.
torque is not on ios because the developer chose not to bother writing
it for ios. it's as simple as that.
there are *numerous* obd apps on ios, many of which are much better
than torque.
Rod Speed
Dec 25, 2018, 1:01:45 PM12/25/18
to
"sms" <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:pvtobc$1co$1...@dont-email.me...
> On 12/24/2018 3:30 PM, arlen holder wrote:
>
>> When you compare the two app development environments, almost
>> everything, if not everything about the iOS app development
>> environment is a Draconian prison compared to the wide open
>> environment of Android.
>
> If you're an app developer you always want to do the iOS app first
> because it's much more profitable. iOS users are more willing to ante up
> for paid apps, whereas Android users expect more apps to be ad-supported.
> I know that a lot of Android users have never paid for an App!
I have never paid for an iOS app and have paid for just one android app.
>
>> When you compare the two app development environments, almost
>> everything, if not everything about the iOS app development
>> environment is a Draconian prison compared to the wide open
>> environment of Android.
>
> If you're an app developer you always want to do the iOS app first
> because it's much more profitable. iOS users are more willing to ante up
> for paid apps, whereas Android users expect more apps to be ad-supported.
> I know that a lot of Android users have never paid for an App!
arlen holder
Dec 25, 2018, 2:20:58 PM12/25/18
to
On Tue, 25 Dec 2018 03:30:01 -0500, nospam wrote:
>> but it won't
>> really be running on Windows.
>
> yes it very definitely will.
Merry Christmas! (If you have two bibles of BS to believe in.)
>> but it won't
>> really be running on Windows.
>
> yes it very definitely will.
(Happy Holidays if you only have one bible of BS to believe in.)
Facts.
The main point was a quick summary, by sms, which I agree with,
since we're both logical sentient adults who comprehend facts.
o Android Studio IDE is well supported on all 3 desktop platforms
o *iOS Xcode app development is only supported on the Mac*
Personal message to sms:
I never understand why nospam says the idiotic crap he says.
o Is nospam brazenly denying the obvious because he's stupid?
o Or does nospam deny the obvious just to play a silly game?
(I can never figure out if he's really stupid, or just childish.)
We are all well aware of emulation, but that's not the point if we have
nospam spouting that the iOS deveolopment environment is "just as open" as
is the Android development environment, when, in fact, it's just not.
If you really want to run in emulation, then it's said that you can:
o Xcode for Windows
<https://codewithchris.com/xcode-for-windows/>
o XCode on Windows: How to Develop for Mac or iOS on a PC
<https://blog.udemy.com/xcode-on-windows/>
o Xcode for Windows- Develop apps for iOS or MacOS ¡V 2018
<https://techworm.net/programming/xcode-for-windows-develop-apps-ios-mac-os/>
How to Install Xcode on Windows 10, 8 or 8.1and 7 for iOS SDK
<https://www.alltechbuzz.net/install-xcode-on-windows-for-ios-sdk/>
The facts are obvious to all sentient logical intelligent adults.
o Xcode is not supported on the major platform (Windows) or Linux.
o If you jump through hoops, you can develop for iOS on those platforms
o Android Studio is well supported on all 3 major development platforms
I understand that nospam has a religous belief system in Apple,
so I wish him well in the holiday spirit, claiming his religious
conviction that iOS and Android app development environments are equally
open.
arlen holder
Dec 25, 2018, 2:25:56 PM12/25/18
to
On Wed, 26 Dec 2018 05:01:37 +1100, Rod Speed wrote:
> I have never paid for an iOS app and have paid for just one android app.
Merry Christmas!
> I have never paid for an iOS app and have paid for just one android app.
I am the opposite of Rod Speed.
I have never paid for an Android app but paid for one iOS app.
The reason I paid was I was testing the process of private payments
via a cash credit card.
I think it was iHikeGPS (which is on a different iPad, which has GPS).
(My current iPad is WiFi only so I haven't bothered to move it over, and
even if I did, I have no idea what apple id it was originally bought
under.)
(Is there a way to find the apple id from the app itself?)
nospam
Dec 25, 2018, 2:50:08 PM12/25/18
to
In article <pvu083$lqj$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
you wanted a particular app, so you bought a gift card to buy it and
couldn't even get that much right.
> I think it was iHikeGPS (which is on a different iPad, which has GPS).
> (My current iPad is WiFi only so I haven't bothered to move it over, and
> even if I did, I have no idea what apple id it was originally bought
> under.)
>
> (Is there a way to find the apple id from the app itself?)
yes, but since you claim to have no idea what any of your multiple
apple/google id passwords are, it doesn't actually matter.
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
> I have never paid for an Android app but paid for one iOS app.
>
> The reason I paid was I was testing the process of private payments
> via a cash credit card.
no it wasn't.
> I have never paid for an Android app but paid for one iOS app.
>
> The reason I paid was I was testing the process of private payments
> via a cash credit card.
you wanted a particular app, so you bought a gift card to buy it and
couldn't even get that much right.
> I think it was iHikeGPS (which is on a different iPad, which has GPS).
> (My current iPad is WiFi only so I haven't bothered to move it over, and
> even if I did, I have no idea what apple id it was originally bought
> under.)
>
> (Is there a way to find the apple id from the app itself?)
apple/google id passwords are, it doesn't actually matter.
arlen holder
Dec 25, 2018, 3:29:55 PM12/25/18
to
On Tue, 25 Dec 2018 12:22:08 -0500, nospam wrote:
>> If you're an app developer you always want to do the iOS app first
>> because it's much more profitable.
>
> it's also much easier.
Merry Christmas!
>> If you're an app developer you always want to do the iOS app first
>> because it's much more profitable.
>
> it's also much easier.
For a professional developer, I doubt "much easier" matters, but I also
doubt that, for a professional developer, "much easier" is even close to
correct.
A professional can develop on both if they want to, since one uses
Java/Kotlin and the other mainly uses Objective-C/Swift, neither of which
would be any big deal to a professional coder.
I would agree, in principle, that iOS users spend more money more easily on
less functionality, literally by virtue of the fact that they bought an
iPhone (which means price-to-performance isn't part of their vocabulary).
But the 'profit' will vary greatly depending on a host of factors such as:
o What type of app it is (e.g., what market it appeals to)
o The competition
o How good the app is
etc.
Those three will matter, I suspect, more than the platform.
>> iOS users are more willing to ante up
>> for paid apps, whereas Android users expect more apps to be
>> ad-supported.
>
> mostly true.
that Android users not only tend to find free stuff, but that we find stuff
that is open source and doesn't have _any_ ads, such as NewPipe YouTube Red
clones.
>> I know that a lot of Android users have never paid for an App!
>
> a lot of ios users have never paid for an app either.
card on a phone, which pretty much negates any chance of paying for an app
(without jumping through hoops).
>> Personally I have several paid apps. Torque Pro, OSMAND, and CoPilot.
<https://f-droid.org/packages/net.osmand.plus/>
Notice it's the _same_ executable.
We have an entire thread on the (minor) differences, which, as I recall,
are basically in the update schedule (but which is otherwise the same).
On CoPilot, it's good software, no doubt, but I'd never pay for it simply
because good software for offline roadmap navigation abounds.
The main problem with offline software is the address lookup, where, at
least on Android, if you're smart, you can do a single quick accurate
online lookup to scrape the google database privately, and send the GPS
location automatically from that one open-source lookup app to any map app
on the phone, for that map app to *accurately* route to your destination.
Unfortunately, as far as anyone knows how, you can't do that on iOS.
Does iOS have basic *accurate* address lookup anonymously from the stellar Google Maps DB API?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/zMyax-Exgdw/61onQ8lWBAAJ>
>> The latter two work on both iOS and Android platforms with one payment.
>> Torque is not available for iOS because of operating system limitations.
>
> absolutely false.
>
> there is *no* os limitation whatsoever preventing torque or any other
> obd app on ios.
>
> torque is not on ios because the developer chose not to bother writing
> it for ios. it's as simple as that.
>
> there are *numerous* obd apps on ios, many of which are much better
> than torque.
guess, to have a free app with a paid-for transmitter.
If you know of a good price-to-performance transmitter that can transmit to
both Android & iOS OBD receiver freeware, that would be useful.
I'm asking that of others since nospam is allergic to actual links that
back up any claim he makes - where my goal is the goal of the best
price-to-performance, which, for cross platform use would be:
o ELM (or something similar most likely) transmitter (most likely BT?)
o iOS/Android freeware, most likely open source as the receiver & display
Merry Christmas!
nospam
Dec 25, 2018, 4:08:04 PM12/25/18
to
In article <pvu402$r2h$1...@news.mixmin.net>, arlen holder
more and better features for the same amount of development time.
> A professional can develop on both if they want to, since one uses
> Java/Kotlin and the other mainly uses Objective-C/Swift, neither of which
> would be any big deal to a professional coder.
you're spewing buzzwords, pretending to know what you're talking about.
you don't.
the different languages and frameworks means it's a *lot* of work to do
both, particularly since the frameworks & apis are vastly different.
some functionality might be a few lines of code on one (usually ios)
and a *lot* of work on the other (usually android).
indie developers don't usually have the skills or time to do both
platforms, so they pick one or the other, or they contract out one
version, usually with less than ideal results.
larger developers have the resources to devote entire teams to each
platform and can release native apps on both at the same time.
there are also cross platform frameworks, where one writes to the
framework instead of ios or android apis, however, they mostly suck
(and that's being generous). apps that use them are generally pretty
bad. there are the occasional exceptions, but they're rare.
another option is wrap a webview around a website and pretend it's an
app, which is *really* bad.
> I would agree, in principle, that iOS users spend more money more easily on
> less functionality, literally by virtue of the fact that they bought an
> iPhone (which means price-to-performance isn't part of their vocabulary).
false on all counts.
> But the 'profit' will vary greatly depending on a host of factors such as:
> o What type of app it is (e.g., what market it appeals to)
> o The competition
> o How good the app is
> etc.
>
> Those three will matter, I suspect, more than the platform.
except that if there's a key app on one platform and not on the other,
it will often motivate someone to switch platforms just to use it.
that's part of what killed windows phone. the os was actually pretty
good, but there weren't very many apps.
it's also why linux users are always dual-booting into windows.
> >> iOS users are more willing to ante up
> >> for paid apps, whereas Android users expect more apps to be
> >> ad-supported.
> >
> > mostly true.
>
> I would agree, where I'd go one further, since F-Droid exists, which is
> that Android users not only tend to find free stuff, but that we find stuff
> that is open source and doesn't have _any_ ads, such as NewPipe YouTube Red
> clones.
there are plenty of open source ios apps, which are easily installed.
of course, saving a buck or two is hardly worth the hassle, but there
are those who think they're getting a 'deal'.
> >> I know that a lot of Android users have never paid for an App!
> >
> > a lot of ios users have never paid for an app either.
>
> I'm sure both exist, where, for me, the secret is to never put a credit
> card on a phone, which pretty much negates any chance of paying for an app
> (without jumping through hoops).
your loss, and there are no hoops.
cardholders have zero liability for fraudulent charges, but for the
truly paranoid, you can dedicate a card for online purchases or use a
virtual card, so in the unlikely event it is compromised, it has zero
effect on any other card. also, with a virtual card, the maximum
purchase amount can be limited. set it to $1.00 and only 99c apps can
be bought.
or just buy an itunes gift card. the number can even be scanned with
the camera (no need to tap it in).
> >> Personally I have several paid apps. Torque Pro, OSMAND, and CoPilot.
>
> On OSMAnd+, you can get the "payware" for free as "OSMAnd~" on F-Droid.
> <https://f-droid.org/packages/net.osmand.plus/>
>
> Notice it's the _same_ executable.
so what?
> We have an entire thread on the (minor) differences, which, as I recall,
> are basically in the update schedule (but which is otherwise the same).
>
> On CoPilot, it's good software, no doubt, but I'd never pay for it simply
> because good software for offline roadmap navigation abounds.
>
> The main problem with offline software is the address lookup, where, at
> least on Android, if you're smart, you can do a single quick accurate
> online lookup to scrape the google database privately, and send the GPS
> location automatically from that one open-source lookup app to any map app
> on the phone, for that map app to *accurately* route to your destination.
>
> Unfortunately, as far as anyone knows how, you can't do that on iOS.
nonsense. of course that can be done on ios.
> Does iOS have basic *accurate* address lookup anonymously from the stellar
> Google Maps DB API?
of course. any app that uses that api can do so, and there's nothing
'stellar' about it.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/zMyax-Exgdw/61onQ8lW
reader could ever possibly do, and for way the hell less money.
> If you know of a good price-to-performance transmitter that can transmit to
> both Android & iOS OBD receiver freeware, that would be useful.
i do, and it is.
<ar...@arlen.com> wrote:
> >> If you're an app developer you always want to do the iOS app first
> >> because it's much more profitable.
> >
> > it's also much easier.
>
> Merry Christmas!
>
> For a professional developer, I doubt "much easier" matters, but I also
> doubt that, for a professional developer, "much easier" is even close to
> correct.
of course it matters. easier development means faster to market and/or
> >> If you're an app developer you always want to do the iOS app first
> >> because it's much more profitable.
> >
> > it's also much easier.
>
> Merry Christmas!
>
> For a professional developer, I doubt "much easier" matters, but I also
> doubt that, for a professional developer, "much easier" is even close to
> correct.
more and better features for the same amount of development time.
> A professional can develop on both if they want to, since one uses
> Java/Kotlin and the other mainly uses Objective-C/Swift, neither of which
> would be any big deal to a professional coder.
you don't.
the different languages and frameworks means it's a *lot* of work to do
both, particularly since the frameworks & apis are vastly different.
some functionality might be a few lines of code on one (usually ios)
and a *lot* of work on the other (usually android).
indie developers don't usually have the skills or time to do both
platforms, so they pick one or the other, or they contract out one
version, usually with less than ideal results.
larger developers have the resources to devote entire teams to each
platform and can release native apps on both at the same time.
there are also cross platform frameworks, where one writes to the
framework instead of ios or android apis, however, they mostly suck
(and that's being generous). apps that use them are generally pretty
bad. there are the occasional exceptions, but they're rare.
another option is wrap a webview around a website and pretend it's an
app, which is *really* bad.
> I would agree, in principle, that iOS users spend more money more easily on
> less functionality, literally by virtue of the fact that they bought an
> iPhone (which means price-to-performance isn't part of their vocabulary).
> But the 'profit' will vary greatly depending on a host of factors such as:
> o What type of app it is (e.g., what market it appeals to)
> o The competition
> o How good the app is
> etc.
>
> Those three will matter, I suspect, more than the platform.
it will often motivate someone to switch platforms just to use it.
that's part of what killed windows phone. the os was actually pretty
good, but there weren't very many apps.
it's also why linux users are always dual-booting into windows.
> >> iOS users are more willing to ante up
> >> for paid apps, whereas Android users expect more apps to be
> >> ad-supported.
> >
> > mostly true.
>
> I would agree, where I'd go one further, since F-Droid exists, which is
> that Android users not only tend to find free stuff, but that we find stuff
> that is open source and doesn't have _any_ ads, such as NewPipe YouTube Red
> clones.
of course, saving a buck or two is hardly worth the hassle, but there
are those who think they're getting a 'deal'.
> >> I know that a lot of Android users have never paid for an App!
> >
> > a lot of ios users have never paid for an app either.
>
> I'm sure both exist, where, for me, the secret is to never put a credit
> card on a phone, which pretty much negates any chance of paying for an app
> (without jumping through hoops).
cardholders have zero liability for fraudulent charges, but for the
truly paranoid, you can dedicate a card for online purchases or use a
virtual card, so in the unlikely event it is compromised, it has zero
effect on any other card. also, with a virtual card, the maximum
purchase amount can be limited. set it to $1.00 and only 99c apps can
be bought.
or just buy an itunes gift card. the number can even be scanned with
the camera (no need to tap it in).
> >> Personally I have several paid apps. Torque Pro, OSMAND, and CoPilot.
>
> On OSMAnd+, you can get the "payware" for free as "OSMAnd~" on F-Droid.
> <https://f-droid.org/packages/net.osmand.plus/>
>
> Notice it's the _same_ executable.
> We have an entire thread on the (minor) differences, which, as I recall,
> are basically in the update schedule (but which is otherwise the same).
>
> On CoPilot, it's good software, no doubt, but I'd never pay for it simply
> because good software for offline roadmap navigation abounds.
>
> The main problem with offline software is the address lookup, where, at
> least on Android, if you're smart, you can do a single quick accurate
> online lookup to scrape the google database privately, and send the GPS
> location automatically from that one open-source lookup app to any map app
> on the phone, for that map app to *accurately* route to your destination.
>
> Unfortunately, as far as anyone knows how, you can't do that on iOS.
> Does iOS have basic *accurate* address lookup anonymously from the stellar
> Google Maps DB API?
'stellar' about it.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/zMyax-Exgdw/61onQ8lW
> BAAJ>
>
> >> The latter two work on both iOS and Android platforms with one payment.
> >> Torque is not available for iOS because of operating system limitations.
> >
> > absolutely false.
> >
> > there is *no* os limitation whatsoever preventing torque or any other
> > obd app on ios.
> >
> > torque is not on ios because the developer chose not to bother writing
> > it for ios. it's as simple as that.
> >
> > there are *numerous* obd apps on ios, many of which are much better
> > than torque.
>
> I do OBDII the old-fashioned way, where, someday, it would be nice, I
> guess, to have a free app with a paid-for transmitter.
obd apps on a smartphone do way the hell more than an old school obd
>
> >> The latter two work on both iOS and Android platforms with one payment.
> >> Torque is not available for iOS because of operating system limitations.
> >
> > absolutely false.
> >
> > there is *no* os limitation whatsoever preventing torque or any other
> > obd app on ios.
> >
> > torque is not on ios because the developer chose not to bother writing
> > it for ios. it's as simple as that.
> >
> > there are *numerous* obd apps on ios, many of which are much better
> > than torque.
>
> I do OBDII the old-fashioned way, where, someday, it would be nice, I
> guess, to have a free app with a paid-for transmitter.
reader could ever possibly do, and for way the hell less money.
> If you know of a good price-to-performance transmitter that can transmit to
> both Android & iOS OBD receiver freeware, that would be useful.
arlen holder
Dec 25, 2018, 4:26:40 PM12/25/18
to
On Tue, 25 Dec 2018 16:08:02 -0500, nospam wrote:
>> Notice it's the _same_ executable.
>
> so what?
Merry Christmas.
>> Notice it's the _same_ executable.
>
> so what?
The fact it's the exact _same_ APK means:
o You can pay for OSMAnd+ on Google Play, or,
o You can get the same APK (called OSMAnd~) for free on F-Droid
(Pick one.)
It doesn't matter to me which you use, I'm just providing the information.
Android (these are both the same executable):
o Free: <https://f-droid.org/packages/net.osmand.plus/>
o Pay: <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus>
iOS
o <https://itunes.apple.com/us/developer/osmand-b-v/id934850255?mt=8>
o ?
arlen holder
Dec 25, 2018, 4:35:25 PM12/25/18
to
On Tue, 25 Dec 2018 16:08:02 -0500, nospam wrote:
>> Does iOS have basic *accurate* address lookup anonymously from the stellar
>> Google Maps DB API?
>
> of course. any app that uses that api can do so, and there's nothing
> 'stellar' about it.
Hi nospam,
>> Google Maps DB API?
>
> of course. any app that uses that api can do so, and there's nothing
> 'stellar' about it.
Merry Christmas.
You're a funny kind of adult in that I don't really understand how your
brain works with so few facts inside of it.
It's like I asked "where can I get X" and you say "X exists".
That helps nobody.
That your brain is so fact free is kind of odd, but I guess a lot of adult
brains are fact free, so, maybe the fact that I speak facts is the oddity
here.
I mean, Jesus, you claim all sorts of things, almost all of which turns out
to be dead wrong, that your brain is PERFECT for a politician, professional
swindler, and a used-car salesman. You're also kind of sort of ok for a
defense lawyer, since your claims are so outlandish that you just might get
a client off the hook if you can sew enough doubt in the jury's mind.
The one thing your brain is TERRIBLE for though, are facts.
By way of simple example, you claim that there's nothing "stellar" about
it, and yet, you can't name a _single_ iOS app that actually _does_ it.
You _never_ come up with the good's nospam.
You're like the guy I know whose hand always goes into his pocket when it's
time to pay the bill, but his hand never comes out of his pocket with the
money.
You _claim_ the world, nospam - and you deliver absolutely nothing.
Unless you're just playing silly stupid games with us, nospam, I sincerely
do not understand how your brain works. It has zero facts inside of it.
You _never_ deliver the goods nospam.
Never.
Hence, nothing you say can _ever_ be believed.
(It's all just made up.)
I don't know what kind of people you associate with, nospam, but here, in
the Silicon Valley, people like you who make everything up and who never
deliver on the facts, wouldn't last ten seconds, which I'm sure sms can
concur with me on.
I spent decades solving tough problems in the Silicon Valley, where the
only time I met people like you was when I interviewed folks and asked them
about what they wrote on their resume. (Obviously they were not hired.)
arlen holder
Dec 25, 2018, 6:29:10 PM12/25/18
to
On Tue, 25 Dec 2018 21:35:25 -0000 (UTC), arlen holder wrote:
> You're also kind of sort of ok for a
> defense lawyer, since your claims are so outlandish that you just might get
> a client off the hook if you can sew enough doubt in the jury's mind.
Oooops. Sorry for the typo.
> You're also kind of sort of ok for a
> defense lawyer, since your claims are so outlandish that you just might get
> a client off the hook if you can sew enough doubt in the jury's mind.
"sow enough doubt"
In summary, nospam, I think I can easily understand the other Apologists
like Jolly Roger, because he actually _believes_ what he says, just as a
religious zealot actually believes the earth is something like 6K years
old.
There's _nothing_ on this planet that will change their mind.
But you're a bit different from those Apologists, in that you seem to be
slightly more intelligent, such that there's just no way you actually
believe anything you say.
In that way, you're like the politician who says all sorts of things, with
a convincing smile, but he doesn't believe a word he says.
But at least I UNDERSTAND why a politician says things that even he doesn't
believe, just as I understand why a salesman says things he knows to be
untrue.
But you. You are like those politicians and salesmen who say things that
are complete untrue - but they do it for a personal benefit. Why you do it
is unclear to me.
What personal benefit do you get from lying all the time in almost
everything you write on Usenet?
You can object that it's unfair of me to state unoquivocally that you're
lying, but, the only other option is rthat you're like Jolly Roger, which
means you actually _believe_ the idiotic things you write.
You're an enigma to me, nospam:
o If I assume you're intelligent, then I have to conclude you're a liar.
o If I assume you're just stupid, then that explains everything you write.
The enigma doesn't happen with BK or Lewis or Jolly Roger, because I simply
assume they're stupid.
The enigma is for you, nospam, because I assume you're intelligent.
Given that I assume you're intelligent, I have to conclude you're a liar.
If I stop there, then it's easy to figure you out.
But then I have to ask WHY you're such an inveterate liar?
What on earth do you GAIN by lying almost every time you respond?
THAT is what I don't understand.
With Snit, he's just an attention whore - so that's why he lies.
You don't NEED the attention.
So the enigma with you nospam, is WHY you lie almost all the time?
What on earth do you GAIN by always denying obvious facts?
What do you gain by always claiming YES is no and NO is yes?
You're an enigma to me, nospam.
What is your motive in being an inveterate liar?
You don't gain anything?
Me? I tell the facts.
What I gain is credibility.
I'm never wrong. (Since I'm human, I _can_ be wrong - but it's rare.)
I'm never wrong because I don't make it all up.
You're almost always wrong, nospam.
*What do you gain by being almost always wrong almost all the time?*
I don't understand how your brain works, nospam.
I just don't.
There's no observable benefit to you almost always being wrong.
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