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1984-05-30 Deposition UNDER OATH of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
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Peetee Aitchei
Oct 11, 2014, 1:37:50 AM10/11/14
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1984-05-30 Deposition UNDER OATH of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
PART ONE of 2 parts - Being from the First of TWO Depositions given by KLEMP
US District Court - District of Oregon - Civil No. 84-228
- EXAMPLE OF PLAINTIFF WITNESSES BEING GROOMED BY ECKANKAR's COUNSEL
- EXAMPLE OF WITNESSES GIVING FAULTY ILLOGICAL SWORN EVIDENCE
- Another example of the incompetence and abdication of the
Responsibilities and DUTY as Trustees of the Board
- Involvment of Patti Simpson-Rivinus and 8th Initiates
- Reliance upon Hearsay and Office Gossip versus TRUE FACTS
QUOTING Extracts from pp 1 - 141:
1984-05-30 Deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
--- --- ---
[My comments are bracketed thus - My CAPS for emphasis]
Quoting from: The Deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP:
[pg 1]
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF OREGON
DEPOSITION OF SRI HAROLD KLEMP
Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff
BE IT REMEMBERED That the deposition of SRI
HAROLD KLEMP was taken in behalf of the Plaintiff,
before Gretia R. Capri, Court Reporter and Notary
Public for Oregon, on the 30th day May, 1984,
at the Red Carpet Room, United Airlines,
Portland, Oregon, commencing at the hour of 9:30 a.m.
APPEARANCES
SCHWABE, WILLIAMSON, WYATT, MOORE & ROBERTS
By Mr. David W. Axelrod, appearing in behalf the Plaintiff.
ESLER & SCHNEIDER
by Mr. Michael J. Esler, appearing in behalf of the Defendant.
ALSO PRESENT Mr. Gary Hardiman
[Representing The Nichols Law Corporation TNLC,
previously Legal Counsel for ECKANKAR Corporation]
[pg 2]
STIPULATION
(At said time and place the following Stipulation
was entered into between the attorneys present in
behalf of the respective parties:)
It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between
the parties hereto, through their respective attorneys, that
the deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP may be taken in behalf of
the Plaintiff on May 30, 1984, before Gretia R. Capri, Court
Reporter and Notary Public of Oregon, at this time and
place, on oral interrogatories, direct and cross, to be
propounded to said witness as by law provided.
It is further stipulated and agreed that the
deposition, when fully transcribed, may be used in the trial
of the above-entitled action as by law and the Rules of Civil
Procedure for District Courts of the United States provide;
that all questions as to the notice of the time and place of
taking the same are waived; and that all objections as to the
form of questions are waived unless objected to at the time
the questions are asked, but that all objections as to
relevancy, materiality and competency of the questions and
answers are reserved to the parties until the time of trial.
[pg 3]
SRI HAROLD KLEMP
called as a witness in behalf of the Plaintiff, being duly
sworn by a notary, is examined and testifies as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MR. AXELROD:
Q. Mr. Klemp, can you state your name for the record, and
then give your current residence address, please?
A. My name is Harold Klemp. Is it necessary to give my
residence address for the sake of privacy and protection in
case this ever becomes public record? Because a person in my
position has --
Q. You have concern about people knowing where you live?
A. Safety. For my family, yes. My wife and my daughter.
Q. Why don't you give me your current business address?
A. The current business address is 120 Scott Drive.
That's Menlo Park, California. 94026.
Q. Is your RESIDENCE OWNED by ECKANKAR, the defendant?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you lived there?
A. We moved in in October or November 1981.
Q. And your family consists of your wife and a daughter?
A. Yes.
Q. How old is your daughter?
A. Well, again for the safety and protection, I don't like...
[skip - pg 16]
[...] ...Vairagi Masters are supporting him.
Q. WHEN did you conduct this investigation?
A. Which investigation?
Q. Concerning the CHARLY [Charlie] WALLACE AFFAIR?
A. The investigation was simply looking into the public
records to see what information was available from the court
proceedings that surrounding the litigation of the property
that ECKANKAR had which he disputed as being that of his
FORMER ALLEGED WIFE [HELEN FRYE of SEDONA Az.], because
there is question whether they were married or not.
Q. The question was, WHEN did you do this?
A. This was in the fall, sometime in the fall, of 1983.
[ POST Gross' termination in August of 1983 ]
Q. Do you know when in the fall?
A. Not precisely. Because many events were happening then.
Q. Do you RECALL what records you looked at?
A. NO.
Q. Do you RECALL whether you discussed this matter with
anyone on staff?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you discuss it with?
A. This was done with the SPIRITUAL DEPARTMENT. Because I
was investigating it as a SPIRITUAL CONCERN in this position
as initiate of ECK because I wasn't gaining information, but
I did NEED TO KNOW this information for SPIRITUAL REASONS.
[pg 17]
Q What were the spiritual reasons you needed to know this
information?
A If they were true, or if they were added to the other
acts of the Plaintiff [GROSS], and if they were other
indications of the SPIRITUAL FALL, this was for me to have as
knowledge whether or not to permit him to be a representative
and a spokesman for the ECK teachings.
[ NOTE: This was in the period Sept-Nov of 1983 ]
Q. Who were the people that you talked with?
A. This was done in a PRIEST PENITENT MANNER because it
was done for SPIRITUAL REASONS not to set a case in court.
Q. I don't care whether it was done to set a case in court,
but you went to people and asked them whether they had any
knowledge or information regarding the ALLEGATIONS WERE
MADE BY CHARLY WALLACE in this court proceeding years before,
did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you did it in connection with YOUR DESIRE to make a
determination whether or not you would find it in your
interest to have DARWIN GROSS continue to be A SPOKESMAN
FOR ECKANKAR; is that correct.
MR. ESLER: I'm going to object to the characterization of
that question, you are trying to restate his testimony.
MR. AXELROD: That's why I asked if that was...
[skip to pg 80]
[regarding DARWIN GROSS in the past]
...this one period just came in, there was no other manager
except himself and he just sat in the chair and did the
day-to-day job. People came in and answered to him directly.
Q. How long did that last?
A. I don't recall the exact length of time. But it was a
matter of a number of weeks.
Q. That would have been 1977 or '78?
A. That might be an approximate good guess.
Q. When you became Living ECK Master, what did you see as
your responsibilities in the physical side of the defendant's
operation?
A. The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad makes it very clear that the
Living ECK Master is at the head of the entire organization.
[ NOTE: Does it? I don't think it does say anything about
the "physical organization" at all. Does anyone have a
quotation reference? ]
Q. So you were going to run the day-to-day affairs, handle
the responsibilities of the board of trustees of the
defendant and all of the spiritual work?
A Darwin Gross offered to run the business office, and he
made mention very often that there ought to be two separate
areas of working, the spiritual is done by the Living ECK
Master and the business and the corporate affairs would be
handled now instead of under the Living ECK Master as it had
been originally with him, that I would handle just the
spiritual and he would handle the business.
[ NOTE: Paul TWITCHELL DID THE EXACT THING this way from
1968 until his death. The BOARD ran the Organization under
the direction and management of the PRESIDENT, Dr Louis
BLUTH, with much help from GAIL before that, plus other
Office managers and department heads.
TWITCHELL was a Trustee of the Board, and he just handled
the SPIRITUAL side of things, giving talks, interviews and
writing his books, newsletters and giving Spiritual guidance
to people and the BOARD of Trustees as the DOCTRINE,
Teachings changed rapidly during that time 1968-1971.
Twitchell admitted on many occasions how bad he was with
money and managing Eckankar. Patti Simpson-Rivinus likewise
confirmed this was true on multiple occasions, including
just weeks before she passed away in 2011.
THEREFORE, much as Twitchell when he was the LEM, Klemp
here appears to simply be "making things up" as he goes
along, providing no valid or CREDIBLE references back
to REALITY nor what was actually done and written up
before he was the LEM in Oct 1981.]
Q. When did the two of you first discuss this?
[skip to pg 86]
Q. [...] things the Living ECK Master has to do on the
spiritual side of the physical end, such as dealing with
all the correspondence?
A. Well, these things are taken for granted.
Q. What was he telling you about the spiritual end?
A. As far as writings were concerned, he said I was a good
writer because of the publication of my book, The Wind of
Change, [ Heavily edited and assisted by Patti Simpson who
herself said Klemp was DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH when preparing
that book ] and other articles I had written for the ECK
publications previous to this time.
[ NOTE: The Wind of Change, was heavily edited and assisted
by Patti Simpson who herself said Klemp was DIFFICULT TO
DEAL WITH when preparing that book. Read her books and
her other public statements made over the years;
especially after she LEFT ECKANKAR, allowing her
Lifetime Membership to intentionally lapse. ]
Q. Did he talk about responsibilities that you had to continue
writing?
A. NO. Because this is something that if you are a Master you do
what has to be done by direction or inspiration FROM GOD, and
it's NOT for one person to TELL ANOTHER WHO IS A MASTER.
[ NOTE: Is that a two way street? GROSS too was a MASTER of
ECKANKAR, no different than Rebazar Tarzs, Twitchell, or
Gopal Das. Did KLEMP really believed his ideas overrode
whatever Direction or Inspiration all the other ECK masters
were receiving from GOD? Nope!
IOW this is a typical example of KLEMP "cherry-picking"
his beliefs and opinions from the conflicted writings
in Twitchell's Doctrines and Dogma about ECKANKAR.
Did Twitchell, as the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master, hold
the AUTHORITY, if he so believed it necessary, to remove
all Rebazar's Initiations and banish him from the Order of
the Vairagi Masters?
Rebazar Tarzs was still in human form, he was not an ascended
master, just like Darwin Gross was not, correct? The answer
is NO, of course Twitchell could not and would not have
done what Klemp did to Gross the former MAHANTA, Living ECK
Master.
What is given by the SUGMAD cannot be taken away by man,
by any man, even one claiming to be the current Mahanta,
the Living ECK Master of ECKANKAR. Right? Or Wrong?
Patti Simpson stated categorically that: "No one can remove
anyone else's Initiations." End of story. Maybe she was
mistaken, but who would really know? ]
Q. You indicated he talked to you about the spiritual aspects
of being a Living ECK Master and I'm just trying to figure out
what he talked to you about? [BEFORE being Promoted in 1981]
A. Not in the line of do this or do that, because this is
not the kind of relationship that one Master can pass to a
successor. Because the Living ECK Master is the direct
AGENT FOR GOD, and this is where the direction comes from.
Q. Did he at all [speak to you] about the operations of the
defendant's board of trustees during this period of time?
A. There MAY HAVE been general comment about the people...
I DON'T RECALL ...
[skip to pg 130]
Q. [The Decision to terminate] As employee.
A. To the best of my recollection, this was a few days
prior to the August 7th meeting of 1983.
Q. Do you RECALL WHERE YOU WERE?
A. This was a decision that was forming wherever I was
going, wherever I HAPPENED TO BE RIGHT THEN.
Q. During what period of time was it forming?
A. It had been forming FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.
Q. How many is several months?
A. First of all, I saw indications at the beginning of 1983
where the Plaintiff was no longer giving full support to
the Living ECK Master,...
[Speaking of self in the THIRD PERSON is a sign of mental
illness and/or character disorders]
...which is part of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, our Holy Bible.
[ NOTE: Where does it state in the SKS that it is a requirement
for anyone, ECKist or not, to "give full PHYSICAL support to
the LEM"? Do you have a quotation reference? I know of none. ]
Q. So is it your testimony you began forming that decision
the beginning of 1983?
A. PERHAPS, if WE [?] wanted to put it into words. The INQUIRIES
or the things that I began to see as a spiritual leader began to
show up in a number of INNER WAYS as well as OUTER BEHAVIOR.
Q. I'm interested WHEN YOU FIRST formulated the idea or gave
consideration to effecting the DISCHARGE OF DARWIN GROSS as an
EMPLOYEE. That's WHAT I'M ASKING FOR. Am I correct in
understanding you are saying that was first considered by you
in EARLY 1983?
A. It happened over a period of time, and I wouldn't be...
[pg 131]
...able to lay it on anyone specific date.
[ NOTE: But Klemp wasn't asked for a specific date. Is Klemp
really paying attention to the questions. Maybe as little as
he paid attention to the Subject of Discussions, the Resolutions
and the Votes taken in Board of Trustees meetings? It appears
so, for Klemp has great difficulty in LISTENING to what others
actually say to him face to face. This is a pattern of behavior
that extends to this day I believe.
This is something that GROSS also had great difficulty in
dealing with from the moment AFTER Klemp was elevated to LEM
in Oct 1981.
It is GROSS who also claims that KLEMP was causing problems
in the Office, that Klemp did not communicate effectively at
all with anyone regarding "business matters". Klemp didn't
understand the issues even after 2 years in the role.
That he didn't listen and repeatedly had to have his "hand
held" when doing basic work for the Organization and at
Board Meetings.
Was Klemp simply looking in a mirror when he criticized
Darwin Gross and complained about him to others, the 8ths,
including some STAFF at the Office?
This all normal human psychology:101 kinds of issues here.
Simple Teamwork problems, failures to communicate, being
promoted above ones ability to do the work, and of course
some big Egos and people taking sides based on
"personalities" as opposed to Integrity and shared Values. ]
Q. Did you give thought to it during the period of time
that you were in reserved disagreement with the [YOUR]
TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT that had been given to you in the fall?
A. In October of 1982?
Q. Yes.
A. Whatever happens in a dealing like this is just a
reflection of a person's SPIRITUAL CONDITION and on its own
merits I would never have let that happen as soon as October
[1982] based on a contract like this.
Q. Never let what happen?
A. In answer to your question.
Q. I misunderstood. MY QUESTION WAS whether or not you were
giving consideration to AFFECTING THE DISCHARGE of Darwin
Gross as early as the time [Oct 1982] that you have unexpressed
concerns or disagreements with the agreement that was tendered
to you?
A. NO.
Q. When was the FIRST TIME that you discussed the termination
of Darwin Gross with any other person?
A. I BELIEVE the preliminary THING that was of concern to me
as the management ECKANKAR in a proper manner so that I could
go on and DO MY MISSION, the spiritual mission, in the most
direct and positive way. And the first step to this was
stepping in as THE PRESIDENT [in Aug 7TH 1983].
[ NOTE: Klemp was made PRESIDENT in January 1982, but he QUIT
in APRIL 1982. The whole Board accepted that DECISION by
the LEM of the day, Klemp himself. Klemp never raised any
issue about his concerns of the Terms in his EMPLOYMENT
AGREEMENT at any Board Meeting or with other TRUSTEES. ]
And this in fact was... [more AVOIDANCE OF THE QUESTIONS PUT
as to the "FIRST TIME" he discussed it with anyone else. This
aversion to answering direct questions never stopped in both
these SWORN Depositions by KLEMP in 1984.]
[skip to pg 136]
Q. [...] you hadn't made any decision to have Darwin Gross
removed as president --
MR. ESLER: That's not what he said at all, termination of
employment.
MR. AXELROD: That's what I understand.
MR. ESLER: You are jumping back and forth from
termination of employment to removal as president.
BY MR. AXELROD:
Q. When did you make the decision to remove Darwin Gross
as president?
A. Sometime on Wednesday, on the Wednesday before -- late
in the day when I consulted with [NEW] legal counsel.
And at this point considering the SPIRITUAL implications
that were of the concern that led me to the attorney, from
this point I DID IT from an aspect of the SPIRITUAL
INTEGRITY of the ORGANIZATION as an arm to carry out
and to help assist in MY MISSION. At this point I did
it from a spiritual perspective.
[ NOTE: GROOMED BY COUNSEL TO EMPHASIZE THIS POINT OVER AND OVER ]
Q. And at the same time did you make the decision to
terminate him as AN EMPLOYEE of the defendant?
A. At this time WE [WHO IS WE?] STILL TALKED about it as
-- now I got in contact with -- on Saturday with other
board members, except for Darwin Gross and Alan Nichols,
to discuss with them the conditions besides the spiritual,
which were MY ORIGINAL REASON for even initiating this
direction, because as I tried to move with MY spiritual
mission I was being...
[pg 137]
...blocked by the mismanagement and the misdirection of
ECKANKAR property.
[ Note: Totally false, not true, absolute rubbish! There is
no way possible that the movement of funds from one ECKANKAR
bank account to another is either mismanagement nor
interfering in Klemp's "spiritual mission". ]
Prior to our June [1983] meeting there was a movement of
funds, $100,000 from ECKANKAR funds to an Oregon corporation
[ read that as a wholly owned ECKANKAR Corporation] which
was completely without my knowledge, and a week or two
after our meeting another $500,000 was moved without my
knowledge.
[ NOTE: At the time there was NO requirement placed on
management by the Board of Trustees to obtain PRIOR APPROVAL
personally from KLEMP for any such actions. Not once, not
ever. To do so would have been totally impractical and no
such Corporation could have operated in such a manner.
It is ludicrous to suggest it ever could be.
Was there ever a requirement that Klemp be contacted when
travelling abroad or in the USA to be consulted or advised
of any such movements of FUNDS or Property? No, never.
Management operated solely as per the By-Laws under the
Orders and Directives of the Board of Trustees of ECKANKAR,
and day to day through the President/CEO and Officials of
the Corporation.
Klemp was neither. KLEMP never once raised ANY ISSUES OF
MISMANAGEMENT nor the movement of any funds, or the specific
$100,000 prior to June 1983, from one bank account to
another at ANY Board of Trustees meeting from Oct 1981
until August 1983. ]
Q. Hold on a minute. Let me ask a question we will get
into all that other stuff.
Am I correct in understanding that the decision to
discharge him as an EMPLOYEE was made on the Wednesday
before the board meeting or the Saturday?
A. I WAS WAITING UNTIL THE VERY LAST MINUTE TO MAKE A
DECISION of this nature. Because I was looking at it from
all angles on a SPIRITUAL LEVEL. I was checking and double
CHECKING OUTER FACTS. We [ WHO IS WE?] had gotten
very close on a decision but it wasn't absolutely final
on Wednesday, but IT WAS THE WEEK BEFORE the
August 7th meeting.
[NOTE: The Wednesday here IS THE "week before" August 7th ]
I wouldn't specify to the minute, [ NO ONE ASKED HIM TO SPECIFY ]
but it was within the week, to the best of MY RECOLLECTION.
Q. We is "who"?
A. MEMBERS OF THE 8th INITIATES, because this was a
spiritual concern and THEY HAD GRAVE concerns about the
direction that the management of the outer office and the
treatment of the Living ECK Master was suffering at
the hands...
[NOTE: They being ONLY four women 8ths led by Patti Simpson,
post the printing of the original version of LTG III in June
1983 that was not edited by her personally but D.G. & B.B.
Patti Simpson then sent KLEMP a formal Letter of Demand to
REMOVE GROSS in late JULY 1983 [30th?] claiming it was on
behalf of those 8th Initiates, or they would go public with
the ECK Membership. It was a THREAT to ACT or ELSE. But,
KLEMP never spoke directly to any of them, besides Simpson. ]
[pg 138]
(was suffering at the hands)...of Darwin Gross at this time.
Q Would those 8th initiates be Patti Simpson, Pat Henderson,
Millie Moore and Dorothy Moore and Elmo DeWhitt?
A. Are they all of them?
[He doesn't know who the 8ths were?]
MR. ESLER: I think there were five.
MR. AXELROD: That's my question, were there five of them?
MR. AXELROD:
Q. Was Helen Baird one of them?
A. YES
[ Which makes 6, not 5. Mr. DeWhitt was NOT involved ]
Q. Was she in that group?
A. She's another one.
Q. It's my understanding the first five were urging you to
get rid of Darwin; is that correct?
A. There was from their end on the SPIRITUAL LEVEL,
which was what I was considering this whole issue on,
FROM THEIR VIEWPOINT it would have to be done where the
Living ECK Master by whatever was able to work the
resources of THE PHYSICAL END in order to accomplish
his mission in the most direct manner.
Q. My question was, whether those FIVE INDIVIDUALS
WERE URGING YOU TO GET RID OF DARWIN GROSS?
A. I ASKED THEM FIRST -- gave them THE FACTS AS I
HAD AT HAND and asked them to look at the information
I gave them TO MAKE A DETERMINATION BASED ON
THEIR INNER DIRECTION.
[ NOTE: So much for KLEMP's claim to have made the sole
decision for SPIRITUAL REASONS, as the MAHANTA, the living
ECK Master, the only AGENT of GOD, under the guidance
and inspiration of SUGMAD. "Oh what a web we weave!"
Especially AFTER being GROOMED by COUNSEL prior to
giving SWORN Evidence to the COURTS.
Also it was PATTI who contacted KLEMP about the LTG III
book, 16,000 printed copies that arrived in early June
1983. Patti was rope-able over this due to the
"contents" inside.
Twitchell's "writings" were of very serious major concern
at this time. Patti sought to PROTECT PAUL's reputation
by having that version of the book blocked from sale,
and re-written. Close friends with Gail, plus the 8ths
who all *loved Paul*, the target of their attack over
LTG III was DARWIN GROSS. In June, 1983.
Patti was urging Klemp to act, Klemp then rang her back
AFTER he believed he had found a way to OUST HIM.
ie "missing funds" post-JUNE 1983.
This is a stitch up, and the STORY told later is REDACTED
after the events to make it appear totally different.
This LTG III issue was discussed at the Oct 22 HI meeting,
and why it such a critical issue, that KLEMP had the
16,000 copies pulped in September 1983. This "story"
that Klemp contacted them about Darwin is NOT THE
WHOLE TRUTH AT ALL.
QUOTING Klemp at the HI meeting:
"It's not like a fixed situation that has come with like a good story
with a front, a middle, and an end. The end is just going on an on.
And as the end goes on and on it changes things that happen from
front to middle."
IT'S CALLED WRITING A FAUX HISTORY BACKWARDS ]
[pg 139]
Q. What determination were you asking them to make?
A. I was asking them to look it over from a spiritual
viewpoint even as I myself was doing and see if they could
SEE ANY ALTERNATIVES in the situation that had occurred
in the BUSINESS AREA that might be worked out peacefully
in some area, in some way so that I could accomplish
MY SPIRITUAL MISSION without being TRIPPED by
the management of the office.
Q. WHEN DID YOU talk to them about this the FIRST TIME?
A. I had called AN [ ie ONE = Patti] 8th initiate
sometime, I DON'T RECOLLECT the exact date, but within
TWO WEEKS BEFORE -- as I recollect it was within two
weeks OR THREE or SOMETHING like this before August 7th.
Q. Who did you call?
A. I talked with Patti Simpson.
Q. Did you talk with the others as well?
A. I ASKED HER TO CALL THEM FOR ME. I DELEGATED
TO HER THAT CALLING OF THIS. AND THEN WE WOULD
MAKE A INNER CONNECTION.
[ NOTE: Surely the Mahanta, LEM, wouldn't need to make
such an outer delegation? All he would need to do as the
AGENT OF GOD, was to "dial up" the 8th Initiates, the
GOD-Realized Souls of ECKANKAR for an Inner Meeting
at any time 24/7. Obviously not. ]
Q. Did you have a meeting -- a inter or inner connection?
A. Inner.
Q. Did you ever have A PHYSICAL MEETING?
A. NO.
Q. Did you ever have a PHYSICAL CONVERSATION with any of
the other FIVE exclusive of Patti Simpson -- other than
Patti Simpson?
[pg 140]
A. NO. Because the evaluation of Darwin Gross as a
spiritual being is something that I as the Living ECK Master
has to do MYSELF AS AN AGENT FOR GOD.
Q. You were asking Patti Simpson for some kind of feedback
from THE OTHER 8th INITIATES, weren't you?
A. The use the information from people as a sounding board
to consider all possible alternatives that might be included.
Q. And I take it, you told them the problems that you
felt you were experiencing?
A. I told them about THE MOVEMENT OF MONEY TO OREGON
from ECKANKAR which had been done without my knowledge
or without the knowledge of the board of trustees, which
I mentioned before.
[NOTE: SO KLEMP WAS PASSING ON UNTRUE DISINFORMATION,
HEARSAY GOSSIP, AND INCOMPETENT BELIEFS TO OTHERS,
VIA PATTI, but they had no opportunity nor permission
to ask Darwin, or Alan Nichols, or Bob Brant directly
to get THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY.
Nor were they provided with MINUTES of Board Meetings
from the last 12 months to make a proper FACT BASED call.
Now that is brilliant! If one wanted to sack someone
unjustly based solely on Gossip, the Evil Tongue, untrue
facts and out of control unbalanced PARANOID DELUSIONS
of Grandeur, this is the way to go about it.
Of course, KLEMP might well have been SIMPLY MISTAKEN too!
In the world of Irrational Arguments and Logical Fallacies,
this is known as the Fallacy of POISONING THE WELL.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html ]
Q. When did you tell them that?
A. Oh, sometime during the -- all of this movement of money
hadn't come to light at this time.
[ NOTE: LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE - Klemp just contradicted
his own Sworn Testimony here. The man is not Credible as
a Witness. He was not credible as a leader, nor as an adult
with integrity. But that's only my humble opinion based
on my own dealings with Corporate BOARD MEMBERS and in
BOARD Meetings. ]
Q. That's what I understand so I WANT TO KNOW
WHEN YOU TOLD THEM THIS?
A. Well, the BIG ISSUE that I brought up was the -- July
9th was when the Plaintiff [GROSS] had announced to the
staff at the ECK office that within -- by the middle of
August in less than a month and half, there would be 21
ECKANKAR staff members at this Oregon corporation,
and the Living ECK Master and the distribution facilities
would be in Las Vegas,...
[pg 141]
...Nevada, and one of them asked and said, well, does the
board know about this, and they were told words to this
affect, "the board will be taken care of."
[ NOTE: HEARSAY OFFICE GOSSIP - KLEMP DID NOT CHECK
THIS WITH GROSS DIRECTLY, FACE TO FACE.
Also this again CONTRADICTS his previous Testimony
that what he spoke to Patti Simpson about was the
MOVEMENT OF MONEY to an OREGON Corporation.
REF: ]
Q. In July 9 you were in Oklahoma, weren't you, at a camp out?
A. July 8 I was at hone, and this is when I got the call
from THE STAFF MEMBER [JOAN CROSS-KLEMP] the staff member
who told me and said, "Hey, there's a big move coming and
do you have any knowledge of it," and I said NO.
[ NOTE: Did Klemp get in his car and drive to the Office
to speak with GROSS? NO. Did he telephone him at the
Office and ask Gross directly? NO. The staff member
couldn't possibly have been "mistaken", or confused a
JOKE with a FACT could she? Oh no, never! Yeah, right! ]
Q. You said July 9 earlier, do you really mean July 8?
MR. ESLER: Are you certain of the dates?
THE WITNESS: I may not be exact on the dates.
MR. AXELROD: July 8 was the date in which there
WAS A BOARD MEETING BY TELEPHONE, if you will.
THE WITNESS: July 8, okay, this was the NIGHT BEFORE,
which was July 7th, on Thursday night. I don't have a
calendar in front of me here so I'm working on
RECOLLECTION HERE.
BY MR. AXELROD: [A formal complaint about the Witness]
Q. We tend to get a part of an answer to my question
and then start getting a little OFF THE TRACK.
MR. ESLER: [TO KLEMP] LISTEN TO THE QUESTION.
MR. AXELROD: So I'd like TO GET BACK TO WHEN you
told Patti Simpson about the various problems that
you were experiencing.
[end quotes]
[ SPECIAL NOTE:
So far KLEMP has given THREE different times, and
several different PROBLEMS, occurring at different
times that do not add up with the FACTS that occurred,
nor his assertions about his "contacts with Patti."
Klemp is lying and distorting the Testimony he is
giving here because he is being caught up in his own
lies, half truths, and matters he is intentionally
excluding from his testimony here, and all Under Oath.
I first year Police Recruit would pick this up in a
"role play" situation at the Police Academy. ]
--- --- ---
Useful References:
Traits of Malignant Narcissism
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BT6jbYbz3LY/JRcU8M2bA-wJ
TELLING LIES: Clues to Deceit by an EK Man
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/lsDSOBYw8qE/ZWuWC8nd7HMJ
Handling Hostile Attacks - Denials by Liars - Dead Agenting
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/7rFV6QBwkT8/n3Fdg0WiDCkJ
Necessity of a Strong Mind ~ Letters to Gail Vol 2 - Redux
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mObK_NvpihQ/96GEYJGS6hoJ
Unethical Decision Making in Organizations - Online Course
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mxZiE5uS4is/FoficVhWr9AJ
--- --- ---
END OF PART ONE of Two Parts
1984-05-30 Sworn Deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
PART ONE of 2 parts - Being from the First of TWO Depositions given by KLEMP
US District Court - District of Oregon - Civil No. 84-228
- EXAMPLE OF PLAINTIFF WITNESSES BEING GROOMED BY ECKANKAR's COUNSEL
- EXAMPLE OF WITNESSES GIVING FAULTY ILLOGICAL SWORN EVIDENCE
- Another example of the incompetence and abdication of the
Responsibilities and DUTY as Trustees of the Board
- Involvment of Patti Simpson-Rivinus and 8th Initiates
- Reliance upon Hearsay and Office Gossip versus TRUE FACTS
QUOTING Extracts from pp 1 - 141:
1984-05-30 Deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
--- --- ---
[My comments are bracketed thus - My CAPS for emphasis]
Quoting from: The Deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP:
[pg 1]
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF OREGON
DEPOSITION OF SRI HAROLD KLEMP
Taken on behalf of the Plaintiff
BE IT REMEMBERED That the deposition of SRI
HAROLD KLEMP was taken in behalf of the Plaintiff,
before Gretia R. Capri, Court Reporter and Notary
Public for Oregon, on the 30th day May, 1984,
at the Red Carpet Room, United Airlines,
Portland, Oregon, commencing at the hour of 9:30 a.m.
APPEARANCES
SCHWABE, WILLIAMSON, WYATT, MOORE & ROBERTS
By Mr. David W. Axelrod, appearing in behalf the Plaintiff.
ESLER & SCHNEIDER
by Mr. Michael J. Esler, appearing in behalf of the Defendant.
ALSO PRESENT Mr. Gary Hardiman
[Representing The Nichols Law Corporation TNLC,
previously Legal Counsel for ECKANKAR Corporation]
[pg 2]
STIPULATION
(At said time and place the following Stipulation
was entered into between the attorneys present in
behalf of the respective parties:)
It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between
the parties hereto, through their respective attorneys, that
the deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP may be taken in behalf of
the Plaintiff on May 30, 1984, before Gretia R. Capri, Court
Reporter and Notary Public of Oregon, at this time and
place, on oral interrogatories, direct and cross, to be
propounded to said witness as by law provided.
It is further stipulated and agreed that the
deposition, when fully transcribed, may be used in the trial
of the above-entitled action as by law and the Rules of Civil
Procedure for District Courts of the United States provide;
that all questions as to the notice of the time and place of
taking the same are waived; and that all objections as to the
form of questions are waived unless objected to at the time
the questions are asked, but that all objections as to
relevancy, materiality and competency of the questions and
answers are reserved to the parties until the time of trial.
[pg 3]
SRI HAROLD KLEMP
called as a witness in behalf of the Plaintiff, being duly
sworn by a notary, is examined and testifies as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MR. AXELROD:
Q. Mr. Klemp, can you state your name for the record, and
then give your current residence address, please?
A. My name is Harold Klemp. Is it necessary to give my
residence address for the sake of privacy and protection in
case this ever becomes public record? Because a person in my
position has --
Q. You have concern about people knowing where you live?
A. Safety. For my family, yes. My wife and my daughter.
Q. Why don't you give me your current business address?
A. The current business address is 120 Scott Drive.
That's Menlo Park, California. 94026.
Q. Is your RESIDENCE OWNED by ECKANKAR, the defendant?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you lived there?
A. We moved in in October or November 1981.
Q. And your family consists of your wife and a daughter?
A. Yes.
Q. How old is your daughter?
A. Well, again for the safety and protection, I don't like...
[skip - pg 16]
[...] ...Vairagi Masters are supporting him.
Q. WHEN did you conduct this investigation?
A. Which investigation?
Q. Concerning the CHARLY [Charlie] WALLACE AFFAIR?
A. The investigation was simply looking into the public
records to see what information was available from the court
proceedings that surrounding the litigation of the property
that ECKANKAR had which he disputed as being that of his
FORMER ALLEGED WIFE [HELEN FRYE of SEDONA Az.], because
there is question whether they were married or not.
Q. The question was, WHEN did you do this?
A. This was in the fall, sometime in the fall, of 1983.
[ POST Gross' termination in August of 1983 ]
Q. Do you know when in the fall?
A. Not precisely. Because many events were happening then.
Q. Do you RECALL what records you looked at?
A. NO.
Q. Do you RECALL whether you discussed this matter with
anyone on staff?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Who did you discuss it with?
A. This was done with the SPIRITUAL DEPARTMENT. Because I
was investigating it as a SPIRITUAL CONCERN in this position
as initiate of ECK because I wasn't gaining information, but
I did NEED TO KNOW this information for SPIRITUAL REASONS.
[pg 17]
Q What were the spiritual reasons you needed to know this
information?
A If they were true, or if they were added to the other
acts of the Plaintiff [GROSS], and if they were other
indications of the SPIRITUAL FALL, this was for me to have as
knowledge whether or not to permit him to be a representative
and a spokesman for the ECK teachings.
[ NOTE: This was in the period Sept-Nov of 1983 ]
Q. Who were the people that you talked with?
A. This was done in a PRIEST PENITENT MANNER because it
was done for SPIRITUAL REASONS not to set a case in court.
Q. I don't care whether it was done to set a case in court,
but you went to people and asked them whether they had any
knowledge or information regarding the ALLEGATIONS WERE
MADE BY CHARLY WALLACE in this court proceeding years before,
did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you did it in connection with YOUR DESIRE to make a
determination whether or not you would find it in your
interest to have DARWIN GROSS continue to be A SPOKESMAN
FOR ECKANKAR; is that correct.
MR. ESLER: I'm going to object to the characterization of
that question, you are trying to restate his testimony.
MR. AXELROD: That's why I asked if that was...
[skip to pg 80]
[regarding DARWIN GROSS in the past]
...this one period just came in, there was no other manager
except himself and he just sat in the chair and did the
day-to-day job. People came in and answered to him directly.
Q. How long did that last?
A. I don't recall the exact length of time. But it was a
matter of a number of weeks.
Q. That would have been 1977 or '78?
A. That might be an approximate good guess.
Q. When you became Living ECK Master, what did you see as
your responsibilities in the physical side of the defendant's
operation?
A. The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad makes it very clear that the
Living ECK Master is at the head of the entire organization.
[ NOTE: Does it? I don't think it does say anything about
the "physical organization" at all. Does anyone have a
quotation reference? ]
Q. So you were going to run the day-to-day affairs, handle
the responsibilities of the board of trustees of the
defendant and all of the spiritual work?
A Darwin Gross offered to run the business office, and he
made mention very often that there ought to be two separate
areas of working, the spiritual is done by the Living ECK
Master and the business and the corporate affairs would be
handled now instead of under the Living ECK Master as it had
been originally with him, that I would handle just the
spiritual and he would handle the business.
[ NOTE: Paul TWITCHELL DID THE EXACT THING this way from
1968 until his death. The BOARD ran the Organization under
the direction and management of the PRESIDENT, Dr Louis
BLUTH, with much help from GAIL before that, plus other
Office managers and department heads.
TWITCHELL was a Trustee of the Board, and he just handled
the SPIRITUAL side of things, giving talks, interviews and
writing his books, newsletters and giving Spiritual guidance
to people and the BOARD of Trustees as the DOCTRINE,
Teachings changed rapidly during that time 1968-1971.
Twitchell admitted on many occasions how bad he was with
money and managing Eckankar. Patti Simpson-Rivinus likewise
confirmed this was true on multiple occasions, including
just weeks before she passed away in 2011.
THEREFORE, much as Twitchell when he was the LEM, Klemp
here appears to simply be "making things up" as he goes
along, providing no valid or CREDIBLE references back
to REALITY nor what was actually done and written up
before he was the LEM in Oct 1981.]
Q. When did the two of you first discuss this?
[skip to pg 86]
Q. [...] things the Living ECK Master has to do on the
spiritual side of the physical end, such as dealing with
all the correspondence?
A. Well, these things are taken for granted.
Q. What was he telling you about the spiritual end?
A. As far as writings were concerned, he said I was a good
writer because of the publication of my book, The Wind of
Change, [ Heavily edited and assisted by Patti Simpson who
herself said Klemp was DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH when preparing
that book ] and other articles I had written for the ECK
publications previous to this time.
[ NOTE: The Wind of Change, was heavily edited and assisted
by Patti Simpson who herself said Klemp was DIFFICULT TO
DEAL WITH when preparing that book. Read her books and
her other public statements made over the years;
especially after she LEFT ECKANKAR, allowing her
Lifetime Membership to intentionally lapse. ]
Q. Did he talk about responsibilities that you had to continue
writing?
A. NO. Because this is something that if you are a Master you do
what has to be done by direction or inspiration FROM GOD, and
it's NOT for one person to TELL ANOTHER WHO IS A MASTER.
[ NOTE: Is that a two way street? GROSS too was a MASTER of
ECKANKAR, no different than Rebazar Tarzs, Twitchell, or
Gopal Das. Did KLEMP really believed his ideas overrode
whatever Direction or Inspiration all the other ECK masters
were receiving from GOD? Nope!
IOW this is a typical example of KLEMP "cherry-picking"
his beliefs and opinions from the conflicted writings
in Twitchell's Doctrines and Dogma about ECKANKAR.
Did Twitchell, as the MAHANTA, the Living ECK Master, hold
the AUTHORITY, if he so believed it necessary, to remove
all Rebazar's Initiations and banish him from the Order of
the Vairagi Masters?
Rebazar Tarzs was still in human form, he was not an ascended
master, just like Darwin Gross was not, correct? The answer
is NO, of course Twitchell could not and would not have
done what Klemp did to Gross the former MAHANTA, Living ECK
Master.
What is given by the SUGMAD cannot be taken away by man,
by any man, even one claiming to be the current Mahanta,
the Living ECK Master of ECKANKAR. Right? Or Wrong?
Patti Simpson stated categorically that: "No one can remove
anyone else's Initiations." End of story. Maybe she was
mistaken, but who would really know? ]
Q. You indicated he talked to you about the spiritual aspects
of being a Living ECK Master and I'm just trying to figure out
what he talked to you about? [BEFORE being Promoted in 1981]
A. Not in the line of do this or do that, because this is
not the kind of relationship that one Master can pass to a
successor. Because the Living ECK Master is the direct
AGENT FOR GOD, and this is where the direction comes from.
Q. Did he at all [speak to you] about the operations of the
defendant's board of trustees during this period of time?
A. There MAY HAVE been general comment about the people...
I DON'T RECALL ...
[skip to pg 130]
Q. [The Decision to terminate] As employee.
A. To the best of my recollection, this was a few days
prior to the August 7th meeting of 1983.
Q. Do you RECALL WHERE YOU WERE?
A. This was a decision that was forming wherever I was
going, wherever I HAPPENED TO BE RIGHT THEN.
Q. During what period of time was it forming?
A. It had been forming FOR SEVERAL MONTHS.
Q. How many is several months?
A. First of all, I saw indications at the beginning of 1983
where the Plaintiff was no longer giving full support to
the Living ECK Master,...
[Speaking of self in the THIRD PERSON is a sign of mental
illness and/or character disorders]
...which is part of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, our Holy Bible.
[ NOTE: Where does it state in the SKS that it is a requirement
for anyone, ECKist or not, to "give full PHYSICAL support to
the LEM"? Do you have a quotation reference? I know of none. ]
Q. So is it your testimony you began forming that decision
the beginning of 1983?
A. PERHAPS, if WE [?] wanted to put it into words. The INQUIRIES
or the things that I began to see as a spiritual leader began to
show up in a number of INNER WAYS as well as OUTER BEHAVIOR.
Q. I'm interested WHEN YOU FIRST formulated the idea or gave
consideration to effecting the DISCHARGE OF DARWIN GROSS as an
EMPLOYEE. That's WHAT I'M ASKING FOR. Am I correct in
understanding you are saying that was first considered by you
in EARLY 1983?
A. It happened over a period of time, and I wouldn't be...
[pg 131]
...able to lay it on anyone specific date.
[ NOTE: But Klemp wasn't asked for a specific date. Is Klemp
really paying attention to the questions. Maybe as little as
he paid attention to the Subject of Discussions, the Resolutions
and the Votes taken in Board of Trustees meetings? It appears
so, for Klemp has great difficulty in LISTENING to what others
actually say to him face to face. This is a pattern of behavior
that extends to this day I believe.
This is something that GROSS also had great difficulty in
dealing with from the moment AFTER Klemp was elevated to LEM
in Oct 1981.
It is GROSS who also claims that KLEMP was causing problems
in the Office, that Klemp did not communicate effectively at
all with anyone regarding "business matters". Klemp didn't
understand the issues even after 2 years in the role.
That he didn't listen and repeatedly had to have his "hand
held" when doing basic work for the Organization and at
Board Meetings.
Was Klemp simply looking in a mirror when he criticized
Darwin Gross and complained about him to others, the 8ths,
including some STAFF at the Office?
This all normal human psychology:101 kinds of issues here.
Simple Teamwork problems, failures to communicate, being
promoted above ones ability to do the work, and of course
some big Egos and people taking sides based on
"personalities" as opposed to Integrity and shared Values. ]
Q. Did you give thought to it during the period of time
that you were in reserved disagreement with the [YOUR]
TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT that had been given to you in the fall?
A. In October of 1982?
Q. Yes.
A. Whatever happens in a dealing like this is just a
reflection of a person's SPIRITUAL CONDITION and on its own
merits I would never have let that happen as soon as October
[1982] based on a contract like this.
Q. Never let what happen?
A. In answer to your question.
Q. I misunderstood. MY QUESTION WAS whether or not you were
giving consideration to AFFECTING THE DISCHARGE of Darwin
Gross as early as the time [Oct 1982] that you have unexpressed
concerns or disagreements with the agreement that was tendered
to you?
A. NO.
Q. When was the FIRST TIME that you discussed the termination
of Darwin Gross with any other person?
A. I BELIEVE the preliminary THING that was of concern to me
as the management ECKANKAR in a proper manner so that I could
go on and DO MY MISSION, the spiritual mission, in the most
direct and positive way. And the first step to this was
stepping in as THE PRESIDENT [in Aug 7TH 1983].
[ NOTE: Klemp was made PRESIDENT in January 1982, but he QUIT
in APRIL 1982. The whole Board accepted that DECISION by
the LEM of the day, Klemp himself. Klemp never raised any
issue about his concerns of the Terms in his EMPLOYMENT
AGREEMENT at any Board Meeting or with other TRUSTEES. ]
And this in fact was... [more AVOIDANCE OF THE QUESTIONS PUT
as to the "FIRST TIME" he discussed it with anyone else. This
aversion to answering direct questions never stopped in both
these SWORN Depositions by KLEMP in 1984.]
[skip to pg 136]
Q. [...] you hadn't made any decision to have Darwin Gross
removed as president --
MR. ESLER: That's not what he said at all, termination of
employment.
MR. AXELROD: That's what I understand.
MR. ESLER: You are jumping back and forth from
termination of employment to removal as president.
BY MR. AXELROD:
Q. When did you make the decision to remove Darwin Gross
as president?
A. Sometime on Wednesday, on the Wednesday before -- late
in the day when I consulted with [NEW] legal counsel.
And at this point considering the SPIRITUAL implications
that were of the concern that led me to the attorney, from
this point I DID IT from an aspect of the SPIRITUAL
INTEGRITY of the ORGANIZATION as an arm to carry out
and to help assist in MY MISSION. At this point I did
it from a spiritual perspective.
[ NOTE: GROOMED BY COUNSEL TO EMPHASIZE THIS POINT OVER AND OVER ]
Q. And at the same time did you make the decision to
terminate him as AN EMPLOYEE of the defendant?
A. At this time WE [WHO IS WE?] STILL TALKED about it as
-- now I got in contact with -- on Saturday with other
board members, except for Darwin Gross and Alan Nichols,
to discuss with them the conditions besides the spiritual,
which were MY ORIGINAL REASON for even initiating this
direction, because as I tried to move with MY spiritual
mission I was being...
[pg 137]
...blocked by the mismanagement and the misdirection of
ECKANKAR property.
[ Note: Totally false, not true, absolute rubbish! There is
no way possible that the movement of funds from one ECKANKAR
bank account to another is either mismanagement nor
interfering in Klemp's "spiritual mission". ]
Prior to our June [1983] meeting there was a movement of
funds, $100,000 from ECKANKAR funds to an Oregon corporation
[ read that as a wholly owned ECKANKAR Corporation] which
was completely without my knowledge, and a week or two
after our meeting another $500,000 was moved without my
knowledge.
[ NOTE: At the time there was NO requirement placed on
management by the Board of Trustees to obtain PRIOR APPROVAL
personally from KLEMP for any such actions. Not once, not
ever. To do so would have been totally impractical and no
such Corporation could have operated in such a manner.
It is ludicrous to suggest it ever could be.
Was there ever a requirement that Klemp be contacted when
travelling abroad or in the USA to be consulted or advised
of any such movements of FUNDS or Property? No, never.
Management operated solely as per the By-Laws under the
Orders and Directives of the Board of Trustees of ECKANKAR,
and day to day through the President/CEO and Officials of
the Corporation.
Klemp was neither. KLEMP never once raised ANY ISSUES OF
MISMANAGEMENT nor the movement of any funds, or the specific
$100,000 prior to June 1983, from one bank account to
another at ANY Board of Trustees meeting from Oct 1981
until August 1983. ]
Q. Hold on a minute. Let me ask a question we will get
into all that other stuff.
Am I correct in understanding that the decision to
discharge him as an EMPLOYEE was made on the Wednesday
before the board meeting or the Saturday?
A. I WAS WAITING UNTIL THE VERY LAST MINUTE TO MAKE A
DECISION of this nature. Because I was looking at it from
all angles on a SPIRITUAL LEVEL. I was checking and double
CHECKING OUTER FACTS. We [ WHO IS WE?] had gotten
very close on a decision but it wasn't absolutely final
on Wednesday, but IT WAS THE WEEK BEFORE the
August 7th meeting.
[NOTE: The Wednesday here IS THE "week before" August 7th ]
I wouldn't specify to the minute, [ NO ONE ASKED HIM TO SPECIFY ]
but it was within the week, to the best of MY RECOLLECTION.
Q. We is "who"?
A. MEMBERS OF THE 8th INITIATES, because this was a
spiritual concern and THEY HAD GRAVE concerns about the
direction that the management of the outer office and the
treatment of the Living ECK Master was suffering at
the hands...
[NOTE: They being ONLY four women 8ths led by Patti Simpson,
post the printing of the original version of LTG III in June
1983 that was not edited by her personally but D.G. & B.B.
Patti Simpson then sent KLEMP a formal Letter of Demand to
REMOVE GROSS in late JULY 1983 [30th?] claiming it was on
behalf of those 8th Initiates, or they would go public with
the ECK Membership. It was a THREAT to ACT or ELSE. But,
KLEMP never spoke directly to any of them, besides Simpson. ]
[pg 138]
(was suffering at the hands)...of Darwin Gross at this time.
Q Would those 8th initiates be Patti Simpson, Pat Henderson,
Millie Moore and Dorothy Moore and Elmo DeWhitt?
A. Are they all of them?
[He doesn't know who the 8ths were?]
MR. ESLER: I think there were five.
MR. AXELROD: That's my question, were there five of them?
MR. AXELROD:
Q. Was Helen Baird one of them?
A. YES
[ Which makes 6, not 5. Mr. DeWhitt was NOT involved ]
Q. Was she in that group?
A. She's another one.
Q. It's my understanding the first five were urging you to
get rid of Darwin; is that correct?
A. There was from their end on the SPIRITUAL LEVEL,
which was what I was considering this whole issue on,
FROM THEIR VIEWPOINT it would have to be done where the
Living ECK Master by whatever was able to work the
resources of THE PHYSICAL END in order to accomplish
his mission in the most direct manner.
Q. My question was, whether those FIVE INDIVIDUALS
WERE URGING YOU TO GET RID OF DARWIN GROSS?
A. I ASKED THEM FIRST -- gave them THE FACTS AS I
HAD AT HAND and asked them to look at the information
I gave them TO MAKE A DETERMINATION BASED ON
THEIR INNER DIRECTION.
[ NOTE: So much for KLEMP's claim to have made the sole
decision for SPIRITUAL REASONS, as the MAHANTA, the living
ECK Master, the only AGENT of GOD, under the guidance
and inspiration of SUGMAD. "Oh what a web we weave!"
Especially AFTER being GROOMED by COUNSEL prior to
giving SWORN Evidence to the COURTS.
Also it was PATTI who contacted KLEMP about the LTG III
book, 16,000 printed copies that arrived in early June
1983. Patti was rope-able over this due to the
"contents" inside.
Twitchell's "writings" were of very serious major concern
at this time. Patti sought to PROTECT PAUL's reputation
by having that version of the book blocked from sale,
and re-written. Close friends with Gail, plus the 8ths
who all *loved Paul*, the target of their attack over
LTG III was DARWIN GROSS. In June, 1983.
Patti was urging Klemp to act, Klemp then rang her back
AFTER he believed he had found a way to OUST HIM.
ie "missing funds" post-JUNE 1983.
This is a stitch up, and the STORY told later is REDACTED
after the events to make it appear totally different.
This LTG III issue was discussed at the Oct 22 HI meeting,
and why it such a critical issue, that KLEMP had the
16,000 copies pulped in September 1983. This "story"
that Klemp contacted them about Darwin is NOT THE
WHOLE TRUTH AT ALL.
QUOTING Klemp at the HI meeting:
"It's not like a fixed situation that has come with like a good story
with a front, a middle, and an end. The end is just going on an on.
And as the end goes on and on it changes things that happen from
front to middle."
IT'S CALLED WRITING A FAUX HISTORY BACKWARDS ]
[pg 139]
Q. What determination were you asking them to make?
A. I was asking them to look it over from a spiritual
viewpoint even as I myself was doing and see if they could
SEE ANY ALTERNATIVES in the situation that had occurred
in the BUSINESS AREA that might be worked out peacefully
in some area, in some way so that I could accomplish
MY SPIRITUAL MISSION without being TRIPPED by
the management of the office.
Q. WHEN DID YOU talk to them about this the FIRST TIME?
A. I had called AN [ ie ONE = Patti] 8th initiate
sometime, I DON'T RECOLLECT the exact date, but within
TWO WEEKS BEFORE -- as I recollect it was within two
weeks OR THREE or SOMETHING like this before August 7th.
Q. Who did you call?
A. I talked with Patti Simpson.
Q. Did you talk with the others as well?
A. I ASKED HER TO CALL THEM FOR ME. I DELEGATED
TO HER THAT CALLING OF THIS. AND THEN WE WOULD
MAKE A INNER CONNECTION.
[ NOTE: Surely the Mahanta, LEM, wouldn't need to make
such an outer delegation? All he would need to do as the
AGENT OF GOD, was to "dial up" the 8th Initiates, the
GOD-Realized Souls of ECKANKAR for an Inner Meeting
at any time 24/7. Obviously not. ]
Q. Did you have a meeting -- a inter or inner connection?
A. Inner.
Q. Did you ever have A PHYSICAL MEETING?
A. NO.
Q. Did you ever have a PHYSICAL CONVERSATION with any of
the other FIVE exclusive of Patti Simpson -- other than
Patti Simpson?
[pg 140]
A. NO. Because the evaluation of Darwin Gross as a
spiritual being is something that I as the Living ECK Master
has to do MYSELF AS AN AGENT FOR GOD.
Q. You were asking Patti Simpson for some kind of feedback
from THE OTHER 8th INITIATES, weren't you?
A. The use the information from people as a sounding board
to consider all possible alternatives that might be included.
Q. And I take it, you told them the problems that you
felt you were experiencing?
A. I told them about THE MOVEMENT OF MONEY TO OREGON
from ECKANKAR which had been done without my knowledge
or without the knowledge of the board of trustees, which
I mentioned before.
[NOTE: SO KLEMP WAS PASSING ON UNTRUE DISINFORMATION,
HEARSAY GOSSIP, AND INCOMPETENT BELIEFS TO OTHERS,
VIA PATTI, but they had no opportunity nor permission
to ask Darwin, or Alan Nichols, or Bob Brant directly
to get THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY.
Nor were they provided with MINUTES of Board Meetings
from the last 12 months to make a proper FACT BASED call.
Now that is brilliant! If one wanted to sack someone
unjustly based solely on Gossip, the Evil Tongue, untrue
facts and out of control unbalanced PARANOID DELUSIONS
of Grandeur, this is the way to go about it.
Of course, KLEMP might well have been SIMPLY MISTAKEN too!
In the world of Irrational Arguments and Logical Fallacies,
this is known as the Fallacy of POISONING THE WELL.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html ]
Q. When did you tell them that?
A. Oh, sometime during the -- all of this movement of money
hadn't come to light at this time.
[ NOTE: LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE - Klemp just contradicted
his own Sworn Testimony here. The man is not Credible as
a Witness. He was not credible as a leader, nor as an adult
with integrity. But that's only my humble opinion based
on my own dealings with Corporate BOARD MEMBERS and in
BOARD Meetings. ]
Q. That's what I understand so I WANT TO KNOW
WHEN YOU TOLD THEM THIS?
A. Well, the BIG ISSUE that I brought up was the -- July
9th was when the Plaintiff [GROSS] had announced to the
staff at the ECK office that within -- by the middle of
August in less than a month and half, there would be 21
ECKANKAR staff members at this Oregon corporation,
and the Living ECK Master and the distribution facilities
would be in Las Vegas,...
[pg 141]
...Nevada, and one of them asked and said, well, does the
board know about this, and they were told words to this
affect, "the board will be taken care of."
[ NOTE: HEARSAY OFFICE GOSSIP - KLEMP DID NOT CHECK
THIS WITH GROSS DIRECTLY, FACE TO FACE.
Also this again CONTRADICTS his previous Testimony
that what he spoke to Patti Simpson about was the
MOVEMENT OF MONEY to an OREGON Corporation.
REF: ]
Q. In July 9 you were in Oklahoma, weren't you, at a camp out?
A. July 8 I was at hone, and this is when I got the call
from THE STAFF MEMBER [JOAN CROSS-KLEMP] the staff member
who told me and said, "Hey, there's a big move coming and
do you have any knowledge of it," and I said NO.
[ NOTE: Did Klemp get in his car and drive to the Office
to speak with GROSS? NO. Did he telephone him at the
Office and ask Gross directly? NO. The staff member
couldn't possibly have been "mistaken", or confused a
JOKE with a FACT could she? Oh no, never! Yeah, right! ]
Q. You said July 9 earlier, do you really mean July 8?
MR. ESLER: Are you certain of the dates?
THE WITNESS: I may not be exact on the dates.
MR. AXELROD: July 8 was the date in which there
WAS A BOARD MEETING BY TELEPHONE, if you will.
THE WITNESS: July 8, okay, this was the NIGHT BEFORE,
which was July 7th, on Thursday night. I don't have a
calendar in front of me here so I'm working on
RECOLLECTION HERE.
BY MR. AXELROD: [A formal complaint about the Witness]
Q. We tend to get a part of an answer to my question
and then start getting a little OFF THE TRACK.
MR. ESLER: [TO KLEMP] LISTEN TO THE QUESTION.
MR. AXELROD: So I'd like TO GET BACK TO WHEN you
told Patti Simpson about the various problems that
you were experiencing.
[end quotes]
[ SPECIAL NOTE:
So far KLEMP has given THREE different times, and
several different PROBLEMS, occurring at different
times that do not add up with the FACTS that occurred,
nor his assertions about his "contacts with Patti."
Klemp is lying and distorting the Testimony he is
giving here because he is being caught up in his own
lies, half truths, and matters he is intentionally
excluding from his testimony here, and all Under Oath.
I first year Police Recruit would pick this up in a
"role play" situation at the Police Academy. ]
--- --- ---
Useful References:
Traits of Malignant Narcissism
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BT6jbYbz3LY/JRcU8M2bA-wJ
TELLING LIES: Clues to Deceit by an EK Man
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/lsDSOBYw8qE/ZWuWC8nd7HMJ
Handling Hostile Attacks - Denials by Liars - Dead Agenting
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/7rFV6QBwkT8/n3Fdg0WiDCkJ
Necessity of a Strong Mind ~ Letters to Gail Vol 2 - Redux
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mObK_NvpihQ/96GEYJGS6hoJ
Unethical Decision Making in Organizations - Online Course
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mxZiE5uS4is/FoficVhWr9AJ
--- --- ---
END OF PART ONE of Two Parts
1984-05-30 Sworn Deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
Peetee Aitchei
Oct 11, 2014, 2:18:57 AM10/11/14
to
On Saturday, 11 October 2014 16:37:50 UTC+11, Peetee Aitchei wrote:
> 1984-05-30 Deposition UNDER OATH of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
>
Noting from before on Page 80:
> 1984-05-30 Deposition UNDER OATH of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
>
Q. So you were going to run the day-to-day affairs, handle
the responsibilities of the board of trustees of the
defendant and all of the spiritual work?
A Darwin Gross offered to run the business office, and he
made mention very often that there ought to be two separate
areas of working, the spiritual is done by the Living ECK
Master and the business and the corporate affairs would be
handled now instead of under the Living ECK Master as it had
been originally with him, that I would handle just the
spiritual and he would handle the business.
Q. When did the two of you first discuss this?
[skip to pg 86]
--- --- ---
[skip to pg 86]
OKAY, so this is actually easy to answer:
First discuss this?
1979
And again during 1980, and again in the summer and fall
of 1981, just before Klemp was finally promoted to LEM.
The point being, that KLEMP agreed.
And as he so often likes to quote others, I will quote him here:
Maybury's Two Laws
Mr. Maybury bases his work on common law, namely:
Do all you have agreed to do.
Do not encroach on other persons or their property.
The first law is related to contract law.
A contract is an agreement between two or more parties,
in which they PROMISE to perform certain actions for
and recognize certain rights of the other parties.
The second law is related to some criminal law and tort law.
Violators of these types of laws have committed acts like
theft or violence against other people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Maybury
Now, there is a huge difference between the Eckankar of 1971, when
Gross took on the role of LEM, to 1981 when Klemp was promoted.
The Corporate Assets had increased 50 fold.
The Office staff at least 20 fold.
The Initiates and Membership by about 10 fold or more.
The administration and world wide operations on a day to day
basis were like chalk and cheese to 1971.
Does it really matter what answer Klemp gave to the question:
"When did the two of you first discuss this?"
Did he?
Peetee Aitchei
Oct 11, 2014, 6:29:02 AM10/11/14
to
On Saturday, 11 October 2014 17:18:57 UTC+11, Peetee Aitchei wrote:
> On Saturday, 11 October 2014 16:37:50 UTC+11, Peetee Aitchei wrote:
>
> > 1984-05-30 Deposition UNDER OATH of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
1984-05-30 Deposition UNDER OATH of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
PART TWO of 2 parts - Being from the First of TWO Depositions given by KLEMP
> On Saturday, 11 October 2014 16:37:50 UTC+11, Peetee Aitchei wrote:
>
> > 1984-05-30 Deposition UNDER OATH of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
1984-05-30 Deposition UNDER OATH of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
US District Court - District of Oregon - Civil No. 84-228
- EXAMPLE OF PLAINTIFF WITNESSES BEING GROOMED BY ECKANKAR's COUNSEL
- EXAMPLE OF WITNESSES GIVING FAULTY ILLOGICAL SWORN EVIDENCE
- Another example of the incompetence and abdication of the
Responsibilities and DUTY as Trustees of the Board
- Reliance upon Hearsay and Office Gossip versus TRUE FACTS
QUOTING Extracts from pp 143 - 152:
1984-05-30 Deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
and
Exhibit 6: Pre-prepared RESOLUTIONS for the Board of Trustees Meeting 7th August 1983
and
1983-07-23 Letter to Sri Harold Klemp from Patti Simpson-Rivinus regarding Sri Darwin GROSS
--- --- ---
[My comments are bracketed thus - My CAPS for emphasis]
Quoting from: The Deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP:
BY MR. AXELROD:
Q. I've handed you what has been marked as Exhibit 6, and
my question to you -- I'd ask you to review that. My question
is, did you participate in the preparation of that document?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you participate in the preparation that document?
A. The initial concepts came sometime after Wednesday [3rd August]
preceding August 7th, which was the date of this board meeting
when this was presented.
Q. Do you know when that document was prepared?
A. I believe it was prepared Saturday preceding the board
meeting. [SUNDAY, August 7th, 1983]
Q. It was prepared BEFORE the meeting of the various
individuals at the Ricky's HiHatt.
MR. ESLER: Ricky's Hyatt.
[PRESENT: Harold Klemp, Robert Epstein (Lawyer), Peter Skelskey,
Bob Engel, Gordon Champion, and Jan Davidson TRUSTEES.
BY MR. AXELROD:
Q. Do you know who prepared it?
A. Yes.
Q. Who?
A. The Robert Epstein -- I don't know what his company name is.
[ New Legal Counsel for ECKANKAR Corporation, represented by
Robert F. Epstein being: "Van Hoesen, Epstein, Englert & Rowen". ]
Q. Was it prepared that Wednesday?
A. No, not at all.
Q. I'm going to hand you what has been marked Exhibit...
[ A LETTER FROM PATTI SIMPSON-RIVINUS to Sri Harold Klemp
regarding Sri Darwin Gross, dated July 23, 1983 ]
[skip to pg 147]
THE WITNESS: [referring to NOT SEEING the published and
unpublished manuscripts, and personal documents archive]
...of Paul's until they were retrieved from the trailer
that had been, I don't know if the word is impounded, up
here in Oregon, as there was a dispute between the
Plaintiff and -- well ---
[NOTE: Twitchell's published and unpublished manuscripts,
and his personal archive library of letters and documents,
was NOT ON BOARD THE TRAILER/TRUCK that was impounded by
Court Order on August 8th, 1983.
That material, according to Darwin Gross who would have
known for sure, had already been relocated to the Salishan
property in Oregon, by GROSS in early JUNE 1983 when he
permanently moved his personal belongings, essential office
needs, and his permanent residence to there from Menlo
Park area in CA. ]
Q. Did you ever ask about them again?
A. No. Because I was cut very short on that.
Q. The second item on her letter refers to control of
spiritual program, seminars, schedule, location, speakers.
Had you discussed with her any problem about that topic.
A. Well, there was a series of higher initiations that were
to go on and I was asked to participate, it was set up by
management, and these were going to be sent around with
training teams around the country and there was going to be
so much money at the gate and you would come in and you would
discuss the spiritual laws.
And they [some HIs & 8ths] were asked as the thing was being
formulated and it had been roughed out, if you would come
in and sit in with this team that was putting it together
from the management staff, by management.
AND I CAME IN as the Living ECK Master to look at the
spiritual aspects of it. And in certain points of it I
made suggestions that were ignored which to me were important
and also made fun of. And I was trying to get a spiritual
mission done here and I was being blocked by Darwin Gross
who was making these comments in front of the staff.
Q Were you present?
[pg 148]
A No, the staff.
Q. So you don't know about these, you don't have personal
knowledge?
A. I don't have personal knowledge. Staff members --
Q. Who told you about this?
A. Staff members at that time, I wouldn't care to divulge
their specific names because they came in the PRIEST
PENITENT capacity.
[ Sounds more like gossip, criticisms, and back-stabbing. ]
Q. This was at a staff meeting of the defendant?
A. The staff meeting was just to set up a program. But
the comments and things that were done later which were
disparaging of THE IMAGE of the Living ECK Master
[in the 3rd person] was now coming in the spiritual
field and these [-GOSSIPING-] people were very concerned
about this in their own spiritual life.
[ Note: Were they children? Did they have a sense of Humor?
Were they Adult and mature? ECKists or Creationists?]
MR. ESLER: Before we get off the subject, why don't I
talk to the witness because he doesn't know what was
DIVULGED at the depositions of DON GINN and CHRIS MORRIS.
(Brief recess.)
BY MR. AXELROD:
Q. The question was, who were the individuals that
related to you these acquisitions of what I believe YOU
TERMED DISRESPECT to the Living ECK Master?
A. Chris Morris and Don Ginn.
Q. Was Chris Morris [STILL] working [AS MANAGEMENT] in
the office in this period of time?
[pg 149]
MR. ESLER: Are we talking about July 1983?
MR. AXELROD: Yes.
MR. ESLER: Or talking about --
MR. AXELROD: Talking July 1983.
MR. ESLER: -- January, February, March, 1983.
MR. AXELROD:
Q. When did they tell you about this?
A. I DON'T RECALL EXACT TIME
Q Did Chris Morris talk to you about this when he was
with you in Holland?
[NOTE: circa July 12th 1983, on the trip with Peter
Skelskey, to have a meeting with GROSS at The
Hague - European ECK Seminar ]
A. If we could go back and establish -- I'm trying to
establish in my mind when we were getting the training
together, of the higher initiates training, which was just
before the youth conference, which was at Easter in 1983.
So it would be sometime in the spring - after Easter of
1982. [or 1983?]
Q That they talked to you about this?
A. Yes.
Q. BOTH of them talked to you about this at the same time?
A. NO. By phone call, independently.
Q. They both telephoned you?
A. Yes. To the BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION.
Q. Was it supposedly at that session that this disrespect
occurred?
A. NO, AFTER. We spent all afternoon -- I came in from,...
[pg 150]
...oh, I don't know 1:00 to 4:00 or something like this, and
then the staff was then going to go back and iron out details
and so on, and when this was being ironed out over the next
few days this is when these instances occurred of disrespect
to the Living ECK Master [in the 3rd person], which caused
QUITE A CRISIS TO SOME OF THEM.
Q. Who did it cause a crisis for?
A. Spiritual conflict. Because the Living ECK Master is
the head of the ECKANKAR religion. And we are trained and
recognize the TOTAL RESPECT that HAS TO BE GIVEN THIS
INDIVIDUAL [3rd person] who is the agent of God in our
religion, and to have something like this coming across
was causing them SPIRITUAL PROBLEMS.
Q. Did they TELL YOU WHO ELSE WAS PRESENT at this meeting?
A. You mean at the meeting where we put this plan together?
[DOH, yes.]
Q. You were not present at the meeting?
A. I was present at the meeting that put together the
plan, yes, But when they did there reviews later I wasn't
there. But I WOULD IMAGINE the people who were in
the training.
Q. And they would be?
A. I'll see if I can remember. Ken Windholz [H.I.], Joanne
Spall [H.I. senior EIO Manager], Bernadine Burlin [H.I. and
Gross' Secretary], Joe Cross [sic JOAN Cross, H.I. and
Klemp's then VERY PRIVATE Secretary, now his wife] was
sitting in but she wasn't part of the proceedings, SHE WAS
THERE AS MY [SPY AGENT...]
[pg 151]
[oops, as my]...secretary. Let me see, who else was there.
Q. Have you talked to anybody else about what went on at
that meeting? [ Apart from Don Ginn & Chris Morris?]
A. NO. NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
Q. Never?
A. NO.
[ Not with Joan Cross (Klemp) at the time? No? Apparently not,
according to this sworn testimony under Oath. ]
Q. Did you communicate that to Patti Simpson?
A. I don't recollect that I communicated that to her. But
SHE HAD OTHER CONTACTS IN THE OFFICE and she may have --
I have no idea where she got her information from.
[On the INNER? During Inner Meetings with HIs, 8ths,
with the Mahanta perhaps? No? NO.]
Q. The third item in HER letter [ie Patti Simpson's letter
on behalf of the 8th Initiates to KLEMP, in July of 1983]
refers to UNRESTRICTED AUTHORITY as to WHO TRAVELS WITH YOU.
Did you discuss with her any concerns you had in that respect?
[ For example, maybe, MRS. JOAN CROSS being restricted from
travelling with Klemp on Official BUSINESS Trips by GROSS? ]
A. Yes, on this Point 3 I did.
Q. What did you talk to her about?
A. As far as I RECALL it had to do with --
Q. The incident with Don Ginn?
A. Yes, Don Ginn. But also the fact that when this team
of trainers was out on the road talking, helping on this
training program, where the people came, and they would come
in Friday, and I would come in Saturday and work Saturday and
Sunday, and they work Friday, Saturday and Sunday, that they
were given EXPLICIT instructions by Darwin Gross NOT TALK
TO ME in any way about the BUSINESS of ECKANKAR.
[ NOTE: and so what does THIS have to do about restricting
WHO actually travels with Klemp besides, well, nothing! ]
Q. WHO TOLD YOU THAT?
[pg 152]
A. Some of the staff members. One of the people who would
be on this team.
Q. WHO were the people that TOLD YOU THAT?
A. Joanne Spall was one.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Pardon.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Ken Windholz, if I recall correctly was another
individual who brought up his concern. But there were other
people at the meeting that I'm TRYING TO RECALL right
now to see who was on that entire team.
Q. What meeting are you referring to?
A. I'm referring to the meeting where I sat in to see how
they had structured the training program before we went out
to the field with it.
[ BUT he was NOT referring to the people WHEN "out in the
field" doing this training on FRi, Sat & Sun?
So, are you following this OK? Making sense to you how
the questions are NOT being answered properly here? ]
Q And that's where they told you about the instructions
that they had received from Darwin Gross?
A. NO, not then. LATER, AFTER ALL THIS OCCURRED.
Q. After all what occurred?
A. After August 7, 1983.
Q. That's when they told you about this?
A. WELL, NO. I had heard some of these things
beforehand, of course. Because like THIS LETTER
CAME OUT July 27, 1983.
Q. DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THIS BEFORE OR AFTER August 7 [1983]?
[END OF QUOTES]
--- --- ---
"Yes, No, Oh damn, I don't know... what was the question again?"
SPECIAL NOTE:
Well, it's like this.
HOW HARD IS IT TO GET A STRAIGHT ANSWER TO A STRAIGHT QUESTION HERE?
AN ANSWER THAT DOES NOT CHANGE MID-STREAM.
Now if you need to, and I wouldn't be surprised if you do, please go
up to the beginning, and read it all over again, and again. At least
until you can SEE WHAT IS GOING ON HERE, and clearly.
It should be OBVIOUS to all. And no.
The answer is NOT that the attorney Axelrod is harassing the Witness.
Far from it.
Now, can YOU imagine, even for a moment HOW DIFFICULT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
FOR DARWIN GROSS TO GET A STRAIGHT ANSWER OR ANY AGREEMENT FROM HAROLD
KLEMP ON ANY SUBJECT?
EMPATHY?
Look up the meaning of the word, to be sure you know precisely what
it means. And why it is critically important here in order to SEE THE
TRUTH OF WHAT IS BEING SAID HERE..... and WHAT IT MEANS.
END OF PART TWO of Two Parts:
1984-05-30 FIRST Sworn Deposition of SRI HAROLD KLEMP - GROSS v ECKANKAR
See PART ONE here:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/y99Jz0_vFZE/yrSv1GP6-AwJ
More later...
Peetee Aitchei
Oct 11, 2014, 8:25:00 AM10/11/14
to
On Saturday, 11 October 2014 21:29:02 UTC+11, Peetee Aitchei wrote:
> PART TWO of 2 parts - Being from the First of TWO Depositions given by KLEMP
> US District Court - District of Oregon - Civil No. 84-228
>
Well then, how are you doing with all that so far?
> PART TWO of 2 parts - Being from the First of TWO Depositions given by KLEMP
> US District Court - District of Oregon - Civil No. 84-228
>
It matters not if you are reading this now October 11, 2014, or in 2015,
or 2020, or 2025 or later.
The story remains the same. Nothing has changed from now to now. See?
Maybe not.
Okay, then maybe I can help.
If you can scroll back through the messages posted in October 2014,
you should be able to find this item:
1983-06-12 Board Meeting Dharma Aircraft Bank Transfers - KLEMP SPIN + Patti S-R
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/FYm88jvcaxM/hc22tVNHVU4J
QUOTING OFFICIAL BOARD MINUTES JUNE 12, 1983
A meeting of the Board of Trustees of ECKANKAR was held by unanimous
consent as of the 12th day of June, 1983.
Trustees Sri Darwin Gross, Sri Harold Klemp, Alan Nichols, Peter Skelskey,
Bob Engel, Gordon Champion, were present.
Also present were Bob Brant, Secretary, and Jan Davidson.
Chairman Alan Nichols called the meeting to order and announced
that a quorum was present.
[...]
It was decided to schedule the next Board Meeting during the weekend
of September 17-18, 1983, in Las Vegas.
The Audit Committee meeting is to be scheduled for late August, 1983,
so that results could be available prior to the Board meeting.
[end quote]
Okay, so remember this date: JUNE 12, 1983
At that time a Mr Chris Morris had resigned his key Office management
employment, and had resigned from the Board as Trustee and Treasurer.
Then if you have read the other material, in full, and understood that,
you will also be aware of the delivery to the Menlo Park office storage
area of 16,000 copies of the original version, by Sri Darwin Gross, of
the book LETTERS TO GAIL Vol. III - that delivery arrived circa early
JUNE, 1983.
Notice the similar timing here? Of course you do.
You'd also be aware that in the FIRST week of June 1983, that Darwin
Gross had moved his home residence and all his personal possessions and
property, and office essentials to the ECKANKAR property on Salishan St,
Salem, Oregon. From documents, this seemed to be the location of the
"Salishan property" referred to.
In the message:
PART TWO - Darwin's known plans to relocate to Salem, OR - GROSS v ECKANKAR
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/UgZbnEsXHCw/AKbMga_EO_0J
One will be able to see the following QUOTE:
"Q. Okay. It's my understanding that from time to
time from THE LATE SEVENTIES on, Eckankar considered
relocating the Menlo Park facilities to a number of
places around the country, including Oregon.
A. That's correct.
Q. And that at one point in 1982 a specific parcel
of property was reviewed adjacent to or in the
outskirts of Salem, OREGON, which was considered
as a POSSIBLE SITE FOR THE ENTIRE OPERATION?
[ NOTE: That Salishan St. property was immediately
adjacent to the Salem Airport, Oregon. But was it an
unencumbered Real Estate property that was DONATED
to ECKANKAR by a Member of Eckankar, Deceased Estate
Will, and it included the pre-existing Lear Jet plus
various equipment and assets associated with Dharma
Aircraft Ltd. an Oregon based Corporation - or was it
specifically purchased by Eckankar for cash? What do
you believe the correct answer is? But why? ]
A. Yes.
[end quote
And that Dharma Aircraft Ltd., was also authorized by the Board in
June 12-13th to be renamed as *Glen Eden Press Inc.* [or similar],
and that was dutifully done by Eckankar's Lawyers, TNLC, as directed.
Well blow me down with a feather, if not 35 miles due west of Salem
Airport today, one will find a beach front road called Salishan Drive,
and right near that, but a short walk or drive to the Pacific Ocean
beach there you will find this place:
Salishan Spa & Golf Resort
7760 U.S. 101
Gleneden Beach, OR 97388
United States
SEE: Google Maps https://goo.gl/maps/xeNWA or http://goo.gl/Fn5wEY
Truth really is stranger than fiction, yes?
Anyway, back to June - July 1983.
Besides moving to sell the Lear jet A-35, and calling in Notes from
Dharma Aircraft when that was done, banks funds were duly moved to
Dharma Aircraft Ltd. bank accounts; aka Gleneden Corporation, T/as
Glen Eden Press.
A wholly owned subsidiary Company of ECKANKAR Corp, a California
Non-Profit Organization. As per Resolutions passed by the Board of
Trustees on June 13th, 1983.
For some reason by the time early July 1983, Sri Harold Klemp was in a
tail-spin over something. Including the moving or the attempts to move
$100,000, $500,000, and $2.3 Million to Gleneden Corp. Oregon.
A telephone meeting was had on July 8th 1983, just as Gross was boarding a
plane to go to Europe where he was listed as the keynote speaker at an ECK
seminar. On July 11/12, Klemp and Skelskey (and possibly Chris Morris too)
were on a plane to The Hague to have a face to face meeting with Gross.
Money was no problem here. Everyone was in some kind of a FLAP.
On 23rd July, 1983, Klemp received a letter from one Patti Simpson-Rivinus,
regarding various complaints about Darwin Gross, purported to be on behalf
of herself and four other female 8th Initiates of ECKANKAR.
It's noteworthy that in April 1983, one David C lane had published his
paperback first version of TMOASM. Issues about Twitchell's plagiarism,
his biographical history, redaction of his prior associations, and dubious
affiliations with the likes of L Ron Hubbard, known Occult OTO member
Frater X and Hubbard's his associations with Aleister Crowley and his
follower John Whiteside Parsons, better known as Jack Parsons, an
American rocket engineer, chemist, and Thelemite occultist was becoming
more known.
Two months later out came LTG III, supposedly wiht all this Occult black
magic kind of information in the contents, written by Paul Twitchell to
Gail, his wife in 1964 to 1965. Patti Simpson, was I think you could say
was Gail's best friend in the world. She had a year ago sold ALL her
Rights over Twitchell's archive of writings over to ECKANKAR for $500,000.
Part of this letter from Patti contained what could be described as
a not so subtle threat, that should Klemp not act to remove Darwin as
President and Trustee of the Corporation, then the 8ths would be
forced to take matters public to the Membership of ECKANKAR as a whole.
At this point, and with Gross back in Oregon, and Ms B. Burlin making
arrangements for her personal needs to relocate to Oregon along with the
rest of the needed Office furniture, equipment and materials for Darwin's
long approved ECKANKAR office to be loaded into a truck, the scheduled Sept.
Board of Trustees meeting in Las Vegas was SUDDENLY moved up to August 7th,
at the International Office, 120 Scott Drive, Menlo Park, California.
A special "caucus" meeting was held with 5 members of the Board and a new
legal counsel on the Saturday evening prior. The following day Gross, Nichols,
and Brant were all terminated on the spot, both as Trustees and from their
day jobs for ECKANKAR.
The rest as they is history.
Thus far, 33 years of it, and still going on.
More later...
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