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Darwin's known plans to relocate to Salem, OR - GROSS v ECKANKAR
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Peetee Aitchei
Oct 3, 2014, 10:33:17 AM10/3/14
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Darwin's known plans to relocate to Salem, OR - GROSS v ECKANKAR
US District Court - District of Oregon - Civil No. 84-228
Extracts from:
1984-09-19 Telephone Deposition of ALAN NICHOLS - GROSS v ECKANKAR
pp 76-94 (Salishan Property/Glen Eden Press) http://goo.gl/DrIY3n
http://pics2.city-data.com/city/maps/fr165.png
and
Extracts from:
1983-10-22 Harold Klemp Speech Q&A HI Meeting
The higher initiates meeting, Saturday, October 22,
1983 at the World Wide Seminar held in Los Angeles, CA.
--- ---
- Background Information: GROSS v ECKANKAR 1983-1984-1985 -
1983-08-07 FALSE ACCUSATIONS MADE AGAINST DARWIN GROSS
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ihCJto3V_Mc/XE5p6-n3lfoJ
KLEMP ~ ECKANKAR versus Sri DARWIN GROSS 1983 to Eternity
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mPJuV0Up3MI/e7uTfPSxGKAJ
1984-09-12 Deposition of Peter Skelskey - GROSS v ECKANKAR
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/MoYGeOXkZFI/dsqzPMN7RIUJ
1983-06-12 Board of Trustees Minutes - GROSS v ECKANKAR
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/aFyKyNB9SdQ/uj7BKd8Ljy4J
Necessity of a Strong Mind ~ Letters to Gail Vol 2 - Redux
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mObK_NvpihQ/96GEYJGS6hoJ
SELF AS THE AXIS OF CAUSE AND EFFECT
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/NMzp8RpEBP4/KsiKmolmbt4J
Unethical Decision Making in Organizations - Online Course
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mxZiE5uS4is/FoficVhWr9AJ
ECKANKAR: Follow the Money
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/uSS7h2citAY/l8mKmT9TAzEJ
ECKANKAR: Follow the Money - Part 2 Publishing Royalties
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/6McQ-6lCfqU/b-LB0Vpt-a0J
CULT OF HORRORS -- CODE OF SILENCE
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/WgnZElyh8jI/Al-mnac3A2cJ
MARMAN - The World Champion at Getting Things WRONG - Exhibit #692 Gross = Mahanta
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BdLTTItzUOk/TTjrkTWdqO4J
2009 Doug Marman opines on Myths vs Truth
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1mdsOwVoAHc/T-n_W5DzObEJ
2009 Doug Marman opines on Blaming or Criticizing
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Cq88pDZA0bc/4mM-k2Q2SwMJ
Traits of Malignant Narcissism
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BT6jbYbz3LY/JRcU8M2bA-wJ
TELLING LIES: Clues to Deceit by an EK Man
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/lsDSOBYw8qE/ZWuWC8nd7HMJ
--- ---
Darwin's well known plans to relocate to Salem OR - GROSS v ECKANKAR
PART ONE
INTRODUCTION
On 7th August 1983, ALAN NICHOLS was terminated as Trustee, Chairman of the
Board, and Corporate Lawyer for ECKANKAR without notice and without cause.
ALAN H. NICHOLS volunteered to give sworn testimony in Gross v Eckankar, and
was not supenored nor required to do so. He acted in the interests of truth
and justice for all concerned with this historical event.
Graduate: Stanford University, J.D. Admitted: 1955
Contact details: Nichols Professional Law Corporation
9 Peninsula Rd, Belvedere Tiburon, CA 94920, United States
Phone: +1 415-789-9348
Real Estate Property, buildings, relocation, 1983 operating Budget was
paid for and/or approved by The Board of Trustees in discussions and
Meetings, and enacted by duly authorized Officers and Staff of ECKANKAR.
All Property, buildings, furniture fittings, office equipment, and Funds
in Bank Accounts was ALWAYS 100% legally owned by ECKANKAR Corp. and not
owned or controlled for personal benefit by Sri Darwin Gross.
[My comments are bracketed thus - CAPS for emphasis]
--- ---
QUOTING extracts
1983-10-22 Harold Klemp Speech Q&A HI Meeting
The higher initiates meeting, Saturday, October 22,
1983 at the World Wide Seminar held in Los Angeles, CA.
Klemp made the following comments and answers to questions at the High
Initiates meeting which was recorded and transcribed, and noted as:
EXHIBIT B - PLAINTIFF'S SUR REPLY in Gross v Eckankar
[pg 1]
HK
[...] OK, very good. Um, I'd like to, we're going to address a few things
this morning. You've had questions about some of the rumors and rumors
mixed with fact about the situation with Darwin and myself and we'd like
to go ahead and address them this morning as well as we can, so that YOU
HAVE ANSWERS for the ECKists that come to you.
I'd like to address myself to a couple of these rumors that I have in my
pocket, and after this I would like to introduce the 8th initiates and the
Board of Trustees and I'll act more or less as a moderator and you can ask
your questions. And don't pull punches, you know, ask 'em straight
forward, because now you can get it straight or maybe I won't just say
straight, but you can get at least this side, because eventually you're
going to have to go to the Inner Master, but you ought to at least GET
BOTH SIDES [huh?]. I've hesitated in bringing alot of these things out,
because they are still developing. Things are still happening. It's not like
a fixed situation that has come with like a good story with a front, a
middle, and an end. The end is just going on and on. And as the end goes
on and on it CHANGES THINGS THAT HAPPEN from front to middle. So, I would
like to um mention the first thing that has been upsetting many of you is
that Darwin feels and says repeatedly that he is not getting his mail.
He's getting his mail, he's getting it twice a week, we're putting it in
an envelope, I don't even see the things. I have so nough of my own mail.
[...]
...you know, I have no idea what was in it, I don't ask, I don't open my
wife's mail, I don't open my daughter's mail and uh the other question was
about Darwin being cut off and being penniless and this is not true.
The MA HAS MORE MONEY THAN YOU AND I PUT TOGETHER. He earns FOUR TIMES more
than I do and I DON'T CARE. [Huh?] I've come up the hard way. [Darwin didn't?]
At this time the ECKANKAR organization pays me a salary, Darwin's is FOUR
TIMES more than mine. These were salaries he set himself. [That is untrue!]
Until this last July I didn't even know what he made. He and the business
manager [also Trustee & Secretary Bob Brant] and Alan Nichols, who was
our corporate attorney knew what I made BUT I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT ANYBODY ELSE
MADE and I DIDN'T ASK [Why not?] because this business of separating the
business from the spiritual effectively kept me from many of the numbers.
[NOTE: Again, that is not true. First he couldn't understand the 'numbers',
could not keep up with the complexity of the 'numbers', and he never ASKED
to see the other people's Salaries or other things. If he asked he would
have been shown the 'numbers' by any of the Staff, from Gross down. Fact is
Klemp hardly spent ANY TIME in the Office, avoiding it like a plague for 2
years except when absolutely necessary.]
And it's taken me a year and a half to dig and dig and look and examine
and finally get to some of the numbers, which upset me very much when I
saw how we were using money and this is why WE BECAME VERY UPSET when the
membership, by management proposal and management at that time meant
Darwin [not correct, it's spin], had wanted to jack them up to $300 a year
and the impact would have been mostly on the new person coming in, because
many of you were ....
[NOTE: That is not really true at all! Darwin was in charge as the
President/CEO, and for 18 months had been restructuring the Office as if
he was the General Manager as well; but STAFF jointly prepared the proposal
to increase Member Fees. Under Darwin leadership, and ALL the Trustees
except Klemp, had agreed it was OK. But with Klemp's personal objection and
discussions further work and information was requested by the WHOLE BOARD
of the Management/Staff to report back in September 1983. It's in the Board
Minutes. ]
[pg 2]
HK continues: ... already on life memberships or sustaining membership and
it wouldn't have effected you at all. And this was why [HK assumes] there
was so little protest at the higher initiates meetings When this $300 figure
came up, or MAYBE SOME OF YOU WERE AFRAID to speak up and say "hey, a three
hundred percent jump, isn't that a little too much?"
[NOTE: Why would HIs be afraid, and who would they have been afraid of? For
what rational reason? What value is a 5th+ Initiation if people are going to
cower when amongst their own kind? This makes no logical sense, and is only
presumptuous innuendo.]
HK continues: ...and this was MY FEELING and this was MY SENTIMENT to the
board. At the time when this VOTE was taken, everything was still being done
very nicey nicey [?], "just you trust business and this is our recommendation,
we need to jump to $300 instead of $100, and you just handle the spiritual
and this is being done for the good of the whole", so, I DON'T KNOW, I should
maybe check my notes, I want to make sure I cover everything, but it was
primarily the mail, the salary, and I'd like to call some of the others out
here, so that you can ask your questions.
[NOTE: That was an intentional critical side track, followed by a quick
shift off the topic and back to the "list"! But the seeds were
planted, so "nothing to see here". Then comes another long side-track.]
[...]
HK:
Well I don't want to belabor this so, heh, well, we have, aw I misplaced my
watch last night, [ Waking Dream? Lost track of the Time Track? ] except for
the LITTLE ONE I carry. (laughter)
[NOTE: LOST the Big One? Yet another unnecessary distraction and stalling. ]
HK continues:
We have an hour, so we want to move along and get your questions. [Really?]
Ah, what else could I answer here. Oh, THE MAIL, THE SALARY. His
paycheck is being sent to him twice a month and the PAYCHECK IS every
month is $6,666. I don't know if it's and 66 cents, I don't know. But
multiply it by twelve months and you get an idea of what THE MAN MAKES and
we're still sending it to him. Our counsel advised, as we were trying to
get OUR PROPERTY back, ECKANKAR property, which is part of the ECKANKAR
membership, from this Oregon corporation, which has no membership except
the president of ECKANKAR, which was Darwin.
[NOTE: Repeats the Salary issue again, quotes CONFIDENTIAL salary amounts.
Klemp has no integrity here at all. He has NO RIGHT to disclose ANYONE's
SALARY to the HIs, not even his own. This is EXTREMELY UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR
for any Officer of any Corporation, religion or not. This shows how utterly
incompetent, immature and duplicitous Klemp was at this time in his life.
This act is indefensible under any circumstances, but especially at this
time and place, where it was IMPOSSIBLE for Gross to defend himself.
The "property" is not, never was, never will be the "memberships property".
It was always ECKANKAR Corps property. It was totally appropriate for Gross,
as CEO and Corp Officer / Trustee of Eckankar to be listed on the
subsidiarity Corp documentation, the same as he was listed on the ECKANKAR
Corp documents as were some of the other Trustees. So, this comment by
Klmep is MEANINGLESS gobbledegook and a 'gross misrepresentation." ]
HK continues:
All this money went to this Oregon corporation and we were getting it back
and they advised as we were bringing all this property back to ECKANKAR,
that we not pay his salary.
But we said, we'll, the board, we just consider LOYAL, [Freudian slip]
lawyers as counsel, means counsel. You give us your best idea and then
we're going to do what we want anyway. And we said we'll pay him anyway.
One thing I balked at and this is WHY HE BECAME VERY UPSET, it was the
$30,000 president's discretionary fund. It is something he ...
[ NO, the BOARD put it in their, Gross can't do this by himself.]
put in the Bylaws in 1978, which means on top of his salary, he allowed
himself $3O,OOO a year, with no accountability to the board.
[Bzzzzzzt, no, wrong! Klemp cannot recall what was Voted on Unanimously
in the June 83 Board meeting, and he know next to nothing about what
happened or why in 1978. First it MUST have been approved by the Board
of Trustees in a Vote then. There should have been both Legal and
Accounting advice to set it up.
There is a long history of ECKANKAR since Twitchell's time having great
administrative problems in operating their activities properly, timely,
and above board at all times. In Oct 83, 10 weeks after Gross was
terminated, no one had asked him to explain the $30,000, nor Alan
Nichols the Corp lawyer, an expert in Non-Profit Organization Law, nor
were inquiries made of the Trustees on the Board in 1978 onwards about
this item.
Klemp has already stated in this meeting how difficult it was for him
to gain current information, yet now he suddenly knows everything about
this $30,000, and has taken at face value whatever 'counsel' he has
been given without questioning it.
Now maybe this $30,000 fund was not setup correctly, as per the law in
1983. But this in and of itself does not make Gross automatically
"guilty with intent" to defraud anyone, or the IRS. Not without serious
proof, and an opportunity to explain his point of view or to defend
his actions and the whole Board of Trustees who approved it.
All these matters are a collective responsibility under the Law. No
one can simply "scapegoat" one person just because you no longer
like them. Not solely based on the hearsay opinions of others who
no longer liked him either. This unconscionable slander and libelous
speech designed to trash Gross' reputation with ECKists everywhere.
This is what is known as the Fallacy of "Poisoning the Well".
Do not forget what was said the beginning above by Klemp: "..but you
ought to at least GET BOTH SIDES" What?
All the HIs are getting here is a 'kangaroo court' intent on an
emotionally charged public Lynching of the accused. This is abhorrent
behavior by Klemp. Even if some or all of what he says was true,
this was NOT the venue to do it. If this was true then the Law
Enforcement Fraud Squad, the IRS etc. should have been called in,
and then the matter determined in a Court of Law if necessary.
If Klemp had an ethical bone of integrity in his body, that is what
would have happened, and he would have kept his mouth shut at this
meeting. He instead would have asked them all to be patient until
ALL THE FACTS were known for certain and proved beyond any
reasonable doubt by some manner of "OBJECTIVELY BASED investigations".
Instead, he lays out all these personal attacks upon Gross, refuses
to allow him to present his side of the story to ECKIsts or The
Board itself, at ANYTIME from 1983 until he died in 2008.
Klemp self-appointed himself as Judge, Jury and Executioner - no
better than Henry the VIII in drag. Holding the title of the LEM
does not give him the right to over-ride basic Jurist Prudence nor
publicly slander another based primarily on Gossip and Hearsay,
and a few weeks of BIASED investigations AFTER he had already
decided to get Gross removed on purely "spiritual reasons" as
claimed later under Oath. ]
HK continues:
It's difficult to set budgets for the board when all of a sudden there
are patches of money, HUGE AMOUNTS not accounted for. This meant, this
money, discretionary fund was not accountable to the board of trustees
nor as income for government tax reporting purposes. And when that check
came through, legal counsel said ...
[pg 3]
... you can't sign this because it's an illegal fund. It could not be
set up. And so I didn't sign that. But at this time he's still getting
HIS MONEY at the rate of $80,000 a year. I make a quarter of that, so,
you know about where I am. I haven't said anything before. How can you
say it, have spent hours explaining to individuals and the next morning
they flip flop and they say oh, but he's just a nice guy who is
slightly off balance.
[NOTE: How can you say it? Easy. JUST DON'T - work it out Klemp! It's
YOUR problem and NOT the HIs and not the ECKists to talk about it. Yet
the PURPOSE of this meeting according to Klemp was: "... so that YOU
HAVE ANSWERS for the ECKists that come to you." Klemp sure is giving
them lot's to say when they get back home! How could any of them know
how true and accurate what they are being told? Impossible. This is a
direct take off of Scientology's approach - destroy your enemies
PUBLIC REPUTATION, and get in first!!! Because people remember what
they are told FIRST, for this FRAMES EVERYTHING THAT FOLLOWS.
Twitchell even wrote about this and the Media, in the LTG books. ]
HK continues:
And these are just a few of the things I'm telling you, but you've
got your own questions and um I want to mention that this money
that was moved up to the Oregon organization, this corporation,
which was a baby corporation from ECKANKAR which was set up,
$2.6 million, 260 thou, 2 million 600 thousand dollars was moved up
there, specifically against the advice of myself and board members.
And he moved it anyway. And it was to a corporation that had no ties
legally to ECKANKAR. In other words it was set up as a gift from
ECKANKAR to this corporation which has no membership. And this is
what we came and got back. And we couldn't get it back first.
Well, (long pause) and I can't even touch on alot of this stuff.
[This section of the talk was already discussed here:
1983-06-12 Board of Trustees Minutes - GROSS v ECKANKAR
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/aFyKyNB9SdQ/uj7BKd8Ljy4J ]
[...]
[pg 6]
The staff said, they wanted to know, they really really wanted
to know what was all behind this. And so we gave them the full
thing, we dumped on 'em and they couldn't handle it. And so I stepped
back and I said alright, maybe we've got to follow the principle of
the hierarchy working from the top on down. Somehow we have to use
consideration for the other person and not just load 'em with facts
when ...
[pg 7]
.... it may not be following the thing, "is it true, is it necessary,
is it kind". It may be true, but is it necessary? It may be true and
it may be necessary, but is it kind? SO IT'S YOUR JUDGEMENT, I gave
some of the 8th initiates information about what to say, about the
situation as it developed, so that if anyone ask 'em they could tell
somebody else and it's amazing, within a three hour space of time I
got a call from the East coast, they said "hey, Harold, this is
what's happening out there," and they said, "Harold said to Patti
that..." and then there was a mix, a happy or unhappy mix of a
portion of what I said and the rest was something from some other
plane. So what I am saying is, YOU'LL HAVE TO USE JUDGEMENT.
[...]
[NOTE: So despite serious confusions already occurring, hearsay gossip
getting out of control, Klemp still goes ahead, and fills the HIs at
the 83 WW seminar with all kinds of STORIES, and THEN PLACES THE ENTIRE
RESPONSIBILITY ONTO THEM TO USE THEIR JUDGEMENT. What a JOKE this is!
With the ONLY advice to use "Is it necessary, is it true and is it kind?"
as their PRIMARY Guidance, after having their heads filled in non-stop
trashing of Gross in their eyes, and then makes THEM RESPONSIBLE FOR
EVERYTHING THEY SAY ABOUT IT.
This in a speech and Q&A where Klemp himself was NOT following any of
this admonition of True, Necessary or Kind, THE WHOLE TIME!
THIS IN A SPEECH THAT IN BEGINNING HE HAD SAID:
"I've hesitated in bringing alot of these things out, because they are
still developing. Things are still happening. It's not like a fixed
situation that has come with like a good story with a front, a middle,
and an end. The end is just going on and on. And as the end goes on
and on it CHANGES THINGS THAT HAPPEN from front to middle."
This is incredibly immoral, unethical, duplicitous, immature behavior,
and it shows the LACK of basic leadership nuance and wisdom which Klemp
brought to the Role. ]
[end of Klemp quotes at the HI Meeting]
--- ---
QUOTING 1984-09-19 Telephone Deposition of ALAN NICHOLS - GROSS v ECKANKAR
PART TWO - next
US District Court - District of Oregon - Civil No. 84-228
Extracts from:
1984-09-19 Telephone Deposition of ALAN NICHOLS - GROSS v ECKANKAR
pp 76-94 (Salishan Property/Glen Eden Press) http://goo.gl/DrIY3n
http://pics2.city-data.com/city/maps/fr165.png
and
Extracts from:
1983-10-22 Harold Klemp Speech Q&A HI Meeting
The higher initiates meeting, Saturday, October 22,
1983 at the World Wide Seminar held in Los Angeles, CA.
--- ---
- Background Information: GROSS v ECKANKAR 1983-1984-1985 -
1983-08-07 FALSE ACCUSATIONS MADE AGAINST DARWIN GROSS
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ihCJto3V_Mc/XE5p6-n3lfoJ
KLEMP ~ ECKANKAR versus Sri DARWIN GROSS 1983 to Eternity
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mPJuV0Up3MI/e7uTfPSxGKAJ
1984-09-12 Deposition of Peter Skelskey - GROSS v ECKANKAR
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/MoYGeOXkZFI/dsqzPMN7RIUJ
1983-06-12 Board of Trustees Minutes - GROSS v ECKANKAR
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/aFyKyNB9SdQ/uj7BKd8Ljy4J
Necessity of a Strong Mind ~ Letters to Gail Vol 2 - Redux
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mObK_NvpihQ/96GEYJGS6hoJ
SELF AS THE AXIS OF CAUSE AND EFFECT
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/NMzp8RpEBP4/KsiKmolmbt4J
Unethical Decision Making in Organizations - Online Course
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mxZiE5uS4is/FoficVhWr9AJ
ECKANKAR: Follow the Money
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/uSS7h2citAY/l8mKmT9TAzEJ
ECKANKAR: Follow the Money - Part 2 Publishing Royalties
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/6McQ-6lCfqU/b-LB0Vpt-a0J
CULT OF HORRORS -- CODE OF SILENCE
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/WgnZElyh8jI/Al-mnac3A2cJ
MARMAN - The World Champion at Getting Things WRONG - Exhibit #692 Gross = Mahanta
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BdLTTItzUOk/TTjrkTWdqO4J
2009 Doug Marman opines on Myths vs Truth
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1mdsOwVoAHc/T-n_W5DzObEJ
2009 Doug Marman opines on Blaming or Criticizing
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Cq88pDZA0bc/4mM-k2Q2SwMJ
Traits of Malignant Narcissism
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BT6jbYbz3LY/JRcU8M2bA-wJ
TELLING LIES: Clues to Deceit by an EK Man
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/lsDSOBYw8qE/ZWuWC8nd7HMJ
--- ---
Darwin's well known plans to relocate to Salem OR - GROSS v ECKANKAR
PART ONE
INTRODUCTION
On 7th August 1983, ALAN NICHOLS was terminated as Trustee, Chairman of the
Board, and Corporate Lawyer for ECKANKAR without notice and without cause.
ALAN H. NICHOLS volunteered to give sworn testimony in Gross v Eckankar, and
was not supenored nor required to do so. He acted in the interests of truth
and justice for all concerned with this historical event.
Graduate: Stanford University, J.D. Admitted: 1955
Contact details: Nichols Professional Law Corporation
9 Peninsula Rd, Belvedere Tiburon, CA 94920, United States
Phone: +1 415-789-9348
Real Estate Property, buildings, relocation, 1983 operating Budget was
paid for and/or approved by The Board of Trustees in discussions and
Meetings, and enacted by duly authorized Officers and Staff of ECKANKAR.
All Property, buildings, furniture fittings, office equipment, and Funds
in Bank Accounts was ALWAYS 100% legally owned by ECKANKAR Corp. and not
owned or controlled for personal benefit by Sri Darwin Gross.
[My comments are bracketed thus - CAPS for emphasis]
--- ---
QUOTING extracts
1983-10-22 Harold Klemp Speech Q&A HI Meeting
The higher initiates meeting, Saturday, October 22,
1983 at the World Wide Seminar held in Los Angeles, CA.
Klemp made the following comments and answers to questions at the High
Initiates meeting which was recorded and transcribed, and noted as:
EXHIBIT B - PLAINTIFF'S SUR REPLY in Gross v Eckankar
[pg 1]
HK
[...] OK, very good. Um, I'd like to, we're going to address a few things
this morning. You've had questions about some of the rumors and rumors
mixed with fact about the situation with Darwin and myself and we'd like
to go ahead and address them this morning as well as we can, so that YOU
HAVE ANSWERS for the ECKists that come to you.
I'd like to address myself to a couple of these rumors that I have in my
pocket, and after this I would like to introduce the 8th initiates and the
Board of Trustees and I'll act more or less as a moderator and you can ask
your questions. And don't pull punches, you know, ask 'em straight
forward, because now you can get it straight or maybe I won't just say
straight, but you can get at least this side, because eventually you're
going to have to go to the Inner Master, but you ought to at least GET
BOTH SIDES [huh?]. I've hesitated in bringing alot of these things out,
because they are still developing. Things are still happening. It's not like
a fixed situation that has come with like a good story with a front, a
middle, and an end. The end is just going on and on. And as the end goes
on and on it CHANGES THINGS THAT HAPPEN from front to middle. So, I would
like to um mention the first thing that has been upsetting many of you is
that Darwin feels and says repeatedly that he is not getting his mail.
He's getting his mail, he's getting it twice a week, we're putting it in
an envelope, I don't even see the things. I have so nough of my own mail.
[...]
...you know, I have no idea what was in it, I don't ask, I don't open my
wife's mail, I don't open my daughter's mail and uh the other question was
about Darwin being cut off and being penniless and this is not true.
The MA HAS MORE MONEY THAN YOU AND I PUT TOGETHER. He earns FOUR TIMES more
than I do and I DON'T CARE. [Huh?] I've come up the hard way. [Darwin didn't?]
At this time the ECKANKAR organization pays me a salary, Darwin's is FOUR
TIMES more than mine. These were salaries he set himself. [That is untrue!]
Until this last July I didn't even know what he made. He and the business
manager [also Trustee & Secretary Bob Brant] and Alan Nichols, who was
our corporate attorney knew what I made BUT I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT ANYBODY ELSE
MADE and I DIDN'T ASK [Why not?] because this business of separating the
business from the spiritual effectively kept me from many of the numbers.
[NOTE: Again, that is not true. First he couldn't understand the 'numbers',
could not keep up with the complexity of the 'numbers', and he never ASKED
to see the other people's Salaries or other things. If he asked he would
have been shown the 'numbers' by any of the Staff, from Gross down. Fact is
Klemp hardly spent ANY TIME in the Office, avoiding it like a plague for 2
years except when absolutely necessary.]
And it's taken me a year and a half to dig and dig and look and examine
and finally get to some of the numbers, which upset me very much when I
saw how we were using money and this is why WE BECAME VERY UPSET when the
membership, by management proposal and management at that time meant
Darwin [not correct, it's spin], had wanted to jack them up to $300 a year
and the impact would have been mostly on the new person coming in, because
many of you were ....
[NOTE: That is not really true at all! Darwin was in charge as the
President/CEO, and for 18 months had been restructuring the Office as if
he was the General Manager as well; but STAFF jointly prepared the proposal
to increase Member Fees. Under Darwin leadership, and ALL the Trustees
except Klemp, had agreed it was OK. But with Klemp's personal objection and
discussions further work and information was requested by the WHOLE BOARD
of the Management/Staff to report back in September 1983. It's in the Board
Minutes. ]
[pg 2]
HK continues: ... already on life memberships or sustaining membership and
it wouldn't have effected you at all. And this was why [HK assumes] there
was so little protest at the higher initiates meetings When this $300 figure
came up, or MAYBE SOME OF YOU WERE AFRAID to speak up and say "hey, a three
hundred percent jump, isn't that a little too much?"
[NOTE: Why would HIs be afraid, and who would they have been afraid of? For
what rational reason? What value is a 5th+ Initiation if people are going to
cower when amongst their own kind? This makes no logical sense, and is only
presumptuous innuendo.]
HK continues: ...and this was MY FEELING and this was MY SENTIMENT to the
board. At the time when this VOTE was taken, everything was still being done
very nicey nicey [?], "just you trust business and this is our recommendation,
we need to jump to $300 instead of $100, and you just handle the spiritual
and this is being done for the good of the whole", so, I DON'T KNOW, I should
maybe check my notes, I want to make sure I cover everything, but it was
primarily the mail, the salary, and I'd like to call some of the others out
here, so that you can ask your questions.
[NOTE: That was an intentional critical side track, followed by a quick
shift off the topic and back to the "list"! But the seeds were
planted, so "nothing to see here". Then comes another long side-track.]
[...]
HK:
Well I don't want to belabor this so, heh, well, we have, aw I misplaced my
watch last night, [ Waking Dream? Lost track of the Time Track? ] except for
the LITTLE ONE I carry. (laughter)
[NOTE: LOST the Big One? Yet another unnecessary distraction and stalling. ]
HK continues:
We have an hour, so we want to move along and get your questions. [Really?]
Ah, what else could I answer here. Oh, THE MAIL, THE SALARY. His
paycheck is being sent to him twice a month and the PAYCHECK IS every
month is $6,666. I don't know if it's and 66 cents, I don't know. But
multiply it by twelve months and you get an idea of what THE MAN MAKES and
we're still sending it to him. Our counsel advised, as we were trying to
get OUR PROPERTY back, ECKANKAR property, which is part of the ECKANKAR
membership, from this Oregon corporation, which has no membership except
the president of ECKANKAR, which was Darwin.
[NOTE: Repeats the Salary issue again, quotes CONFIDENTIAL salary amounts.
Klemp has no integrity here at all. He has NO RIGHT to disclose ANYONE's
SALARY to the HIs, not even his own. This is EXTREMELY UNETHICAL BEHAVIOR
for any Officer of any Corporation, religion or not. This shows how utterly
incompetent, immature and duplicitous Klemp was at this time in his life.
This act is indefensible under any circumstances, but especially at this
time and place, where it was IMPOSSIBLE for Gross to defend himself.
The "property" is not, never was, never will be the "memberships property".
It was always ECKANKAR Corps property. It was totally appropriate for Gross,
as CEO and Corp Officer / Trustee of Eckankar to be listed on the
subsidiarity Corp documentation, the same as he was listed on the ECKANKAR
Corp documents as were some of the other Trustees. So, this comment by
Klmep is MEANINGLESS gobbledegook and a 'gross misrepresentation." ]
HK continues:
All this money went to this Oregon corporation and we were getting it back
and they advised as we were bringing all this property back to ECKANKAR,
that we not pay his salary.
But we said, we'll, the board, we just consider LOYAL, [Freudian slip]
lawyers as counsel, means counsel. You give us your best idea and then
we're going to do what we want anyway. And we said we'll pay him anyway.
One thing I balked at and this is WHY HE BECAME VERY UPSET, it was the
$30,000 president's discretionary fund. It is something he ...
[ NO, the BOARD put it in their, Gross can't do this by himself.]
put in the Bylaws in 1978, which means on top of his salary, he allowed
himself $3O,OOO a year, with no accountability to the board.
[Bzzzzzzt, no, wrong! Klemp cannot recall what was Voted on Unanimously
in the June 83 Board meeting, and he know next to nothing about what
happened or why in 1978. First it MUST have been approved by the Board
of Trustees in a Vote then. There should have been both Legal and
Accounting advice to set it up.
There is a long history of ECKANKAR since Twitchell's time having great
administrative problems in operating their activities properly, timely,
and above board at all times. In Oct 83, 10 weeks after Gross was
terminated, no one had asked him to explain the $30,000, nor Alan
Nichols the Corp lawyer, an expert in Non-Profit Organization Law, nor
were inquiries made of the Trustees on the Board in 1978 onwards about
this item.
Klemp has already stated in this meeting how difficult it was for him
to gain current information, yet now he suddenly knows everything about
this $30,000, and has taken at face value whatever 'counsel' he has
been given without questioning it.
Now maybe this $30,000 fund was not setup correctly, as per the law in
1983. But this in and of itself does not make Gross automatically
"guilty with intent" to defraud anyone, or the IRS. Not without serious
proof, and an opportunity to explain his point of view or to defend
his actions and the whole Board of Trustees who approved it.
All these matters are a collective responsibility under the Law. No
one can simply "scapegoat" one person just because you no longer
like them. Not solely based on the hearsay opinions of others who
no longer liked him either. This unconscionable slander and libelous
speech designed to trash Gross' reputation with ECKists everywhere.
This is what is known as the Fallacy of "Poisoning the Well".
Do not forget what was said the beginning above by Klemp: "..but you
ought to at least GET BOTH SIDES" What?
All the HIs are getting here is a 'kangaroo court' intent on an
emotionally charged public Lynching of the accused. This is abhorrent
behavior by Klemp. Even if some or all of what he says was true,
this was NOT the venue to do it. If this was true then the Law
Enforcement Fraud Squad, the IRS etc. should have been called in,
and then the matter determined in a Court of Law if necessary.
If Klemp had an ethical bone of integrity in his body, that is what
would have happened, and he would have kept his mouth shut at this
meeting. He instead would have asked them all to be patient until
ALL THE FACTS were known for certain and proved beyond any
reasonable doubt by some manner of "OBJECTIVELY BASED investigations".
Instead, he lays out all these personal attacks upon Gross, refuses
to allow him to present his side of the story to ECKIsts or The
Board itself, at ANYTIME from 1983 until he died in 2008.
Klemp self-appointed himself as Judge, Jury and Executioner - no
better than Henry the VIII in drag. Holding the title of the LEM
does not give him the right to over-ride basic Jurist Prudence nor
publicly slander another based primarily on Gossip and Hearsay,
and a few weeks of BIASED investigations AFTER he had already
decided to get Gross removed on purely "spiritual reasons" as
claimed later under Oath. ]
HK continues:
It's difficult to set budgets for the board when all of a sudden there
are patches of money, HUGE AMOUNTS not accounted for. This meant, this
money, discretionary fund was not accountable to the board of trustees
nor as income for government tax reporting purposes. And when that check
came through, legal counsel said ...
[pg 3]
... you can't sign this because it's an illegal fund. It could not be
set up. And so I didn't sign that. But at this time he's still getting
HIS MONEY at the rate of $80,000 a year. I make a quarter of that, so,
you know about where I am. I haven't said anything before. How can you
say it, have spent hours explaining to individuals and the next morning
they flip flop and they say oh, but he's just a nice guy who is
slightly off balance.
[NOTE: How can you say it? Easy. JUST DON'T - work it out Klemp! It's
YOUR problem and NOT the HIs and not the ECKists to talk about it. Yet
the PURPOSE of this meeting according to Klemp was: "... so that YOU
HAVE ANSWERS for the ECKists that come to you." Klemp sure is giving
them lot's to say when they get back home! How could any of them know
how true and accurate what they are being told? Impossible. This is a
direct take off of Scientology's approach - destroy your enemies
PUBLIC REPUTATION, and get in first!!! Because people remember what
they are told FIRST, for this FRAMES EVERYTHING THAT FOLLOWS.
Twitchell even wrote about this and the Media, in the LTG books. ]
HK continues:
And these are just a few of the things I'm telling you, but you've
got your own questions and um I want to mention that this money
that was moved up to the Oregon organization, this corporation,
which was a baby corporation from ECKANKAR which was set up,
$2.6 million, 260 thou, 2 million 600 thousand dollars was moved up
there, specifically against the advice of myself and board members.
And he moved it anyway. And it was to a corporation that had no ties
legally to ECKANKAR. In other words it was set up as a gift from
ECKANKAR to this corporation which has no membership. And this is
what we came and got back. And we couldn't get it back first.
Well, (long pause) and I can't even touch on alot of this stuff.
[This section of the talk was already discussed here:
1983-06-12 Board of Trustees Minutes - GROSS v ECKANKAR
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/aFyKyNB9SdQ/uj7BKd8Ljy4J ]
[...]
[pg 6]
The staff said, they wanted to know, they really really wanted
to know what was all behind this. And so we gave them the full
thing, we dumped on 'em and they couldn't handle it. And so I stepped
back and I said alright, maybe we've got to follow the principle of
the hierarchy working from the top on down. Somehow we have to use
consideration for the other person and not just load 'em with facts
when ...
[pg 7]
.... it may not be following the thing, "is it true, is it necessary,
is it kind". It may be true, but is it necessary? It may be true and
it may be necessary, but is it kind? SO IT'S YOUR JUDGEMENT, I gave
some of the 8th initiates information about what to say, about the
situation as it developed, so that if anyone ask 'em they could tell
somebody else and it's amazing, within a three hour space of time I
got a call from the East coast, they said "hey, Harold, this is
what's happening out there," and they said, "Harold said to Patti
that..." and then there was a mix, a happy or unhappy mix of a
portion of what I said and the rest was something from some other
plane. So what I am saying is, YOU'LL HAVE TO USE JUDGEMENT.
[...]
[NOTE: So despite serious confusions already occurring, hearsay gossip
getting out of control, Klemp still goes ahead, and fills the HIs at
the 83 WW seminar with all kinds of STORIES, and THEN PLACES THE ENTIRE
RESPONSIBILITY ONTO THEM TO USE THEIR JUDGEMENT. What a JOKE this is!
With the ONLY advice to use "Is it necessary, is it true and is it kind?"
as their PRIMARY Guidance, after having their heads filled in non-stop
trashing of Gross in their eyes, and then makes THEM RESPONSIBLE FOR
EVERYTHING THEY SAY ABOUT IT.
This in a speech and Q&A where Klemp himself was NOT following any of
this admonition of True, Necessary or Kind, THE WHOLE TIME!
THIS IN A SPEECH THAT IN BEGINNING HE HAD SAID:
"I've hesitated in bringing alot of these things out, because they are
still developing. Things are still happening. It's not like a fixed
situation that has come with like a good story with a front, a middle,
and an end. The end is just going on and on. And as the end goes on
and on it CHANGES THINGS THAT HAPPEN from front to middle."
This is incredibly immoral, unethical, duplicitous, immature behavior,
and it shows the LACK of basic leadership nuance and wisdom which Klemp
brought to the Role. ]
[end of Klemp quotes at the HI Meeting]
--- ---
QUOTING 1984-09-19 Telephone Deposition of ALAN NICHOLS - GROSS v ECKANKAR
PART TWO - next
Peetee Aitchei
Oct 5, 2014, 3:06:03 AM10/5/14
to
On Saturday, 4 October 2014 00:33:17 UTC+10, Peetee Aitchei wrote:
> Darwin's known plans to relocate to Salem, OR - GROSS v ECKANKAR
>
PART TWO
> Darwin's known plans to relocate to Salem, OR - GROSS v ECKANKAR
>
Darwin's known plans to relocate to Salem, OR - GROSS v ECKANKAR
US District Court - District of Oregon - Civil No. 84-228
1984-09-19 Telephone Deposition of ALAN HAMMOND NICHOLS - GROSS v ECKANKAR
Appearances of Counsel:
David W. Axelrod for Plaintiff Sri Darwin Gross
Michael Esler for Defendant ECKANKAR
Dan Rapaport for Alan Nichols
Gary Hardiman (in San Francisco) for NICHOLS PROFESSIONAL LAW CORPORATION
(previously Corporate Lawyers for ECKANKAR terminated August 1983)
[ My comments are bracketed thus - CAPS for emphasis ]
[...]
[pg 76]
(Brief recess.)
Q. (By Mr. Axelrod) Mr. Nichols, do you also have
Deposition Exhibit 7?
A. Yes, I have Exhibit 7 which is marked production
number 11066.
Q. Mr. Nichols, Deposition Exhibit 7 has previously
been identified as all or part of the materials
that were put together for the board of trustees
in preparation for the August 7, 1983 meeting,
and I'm handing it to you because it includes
documents which designate themselves as exhibits
of the meeting of the board of trustees in ST.
LOUIS at the Creative Arts Festival on June 12
and June 13, [1983] as well as what purport to be
minutes of the telephone conference call of July
eight [1983].
The other two documents are different versions
of the same meetings, and I'd like you to review those
documents. The material differences are at the end of
the minutes of the June 12, June 13 meeting which are
contained in Exhibit 7 at page six and page seven,
there are references to Dharma Aircraft, and a transfer
of certain assets to Dharma Aircraft, and on the
other set of minutes for the same meeting, which
[pg 77]
commence with production numbers 11873, at pages
five and six of those minutes you will see that
there are no references, and with respect to the
minutes of the meeting or telephone conference
call of July 8 [1983] which are contained in Exhibit 7,
the fourth full paragraph and parts thereafter
are different as between the two sets of minutes,
that contained in Exhibit 7 and that which commences
with production numbers 11870, so I'd like you to
take a minute and review those documents.
Mr Rapaport: It would probably help if you'd give us
a question and he could focus on it for his review.
Q. (By Mr. Axelrod) The initial question I'm going
to want to pose is when HE FIRST had discussions
with Darwin Gross or with MEMBER OF THE BOARD
of trustees DURING MEETINGS in which Darwin GROSS
participated about Darwin Gross' RELOCATION OR MOVE
TO OREGON, and it may have been before or at the
time of or at a different time than these various
minutes, BUT I want to look at those FIRST to
REFRESH his recollection and be familiar with those
documents.
Does that give you enough guide to start the process?
[pg 78]
A. Yes, if you limit it, tell me about when you're
talking about.
Q. In 1983.
ESLER: Well Mr Axelrod, I've got a problem now with
the form of questioning that you're engaging in.
MR. AXELROD: I've not asked a question yet.
MR. ESLER: I know, but you're trying to refresh this
witness's recollection. He hasn't shown any
impairment of recollection.
MR. AXELROD: No, I've just asked him to review those
documents.
MR. ESLER: But if you're trying to refresh his
recollection as to when the subject of MOVING TO
OREGON was first discussed, you probably SHOULD TAKE
HIM BACK TO THE PERIOD OF 1981 or 1982 when the movement
to SALEM was BEGINNING TO BE DISCUSSED, IF NOT EARLIER.
MR. Rapaport: Well, Mr Nichols is reviewing the
documents and we'll wait for a specific question, Mr.
Axelrod, and we'll do our best to respond. Then perhaps
you (Mr ESLER) and Mr. Axelrod can square away the
situation.
[pg 79]
Q.(By Hr. Axelrod) Mr. Nichols, during the early
part of 1983, or late 1982, to your knowledge
did Darwin Gross raise with ANY MEMBERS OF THE
BOARD of trustees the idea of HIS RELOCATING to
Oregon to PERFORM WORK ON BEHALF OF ECKANKAR?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this discussion first raised apart from and
without regard to the relocation of any material
part of the operations from Menlo Park?
A. Would you repeat that question?
Q. Okay. It's my understanding that from time to
time from THE LATE SEVENTIES on, Eckankar considered
relocating the Menlo Park facilities to a number of
places around the country, including Oregon.
A. That's correct.
Q. And that at one point in 1982 a specific parcel
of property was reviewed adjacent to or in the
outskirts of Salem, OREGON, which was considered
as a POSSIBLE SITE FOR THE ENTIRE OPERATION?
[ NOTE: That Salishan St. property was immediately
adjacent to the Salem Airport, Oregon. But was it an
unencumbered Real Estate property that was DONATED
to ECKANKAR by a Member of Eckankar, Deceased Estate
Will, and it included the pre-existing Lear Jet plus
various equipment and assets associated with Dharma
Aircraft Ltd. an Oregon based Corporation - or was it
specifically purchased by Eckankar for cash? What do
you believe the correct answer is? But why? ]
A. Yes.
Q. I'm not asking you questions about the relocation
of all or part of the entire operations, but I'm asking
you whether or not ...
[pg 80]
... there was raised the idea by Darwin Gross of his
relocating to Oregon to PERFORM WORK WITH ONE OR TWO
STAFF PERSONS.
A. Is that your question?
Q. That is my question.
A. Yes.
Q. Can yo tell me when t at was first raised, to your
knowledge?
A. First raised, I wouldn't really know when it was
FIRST RAISED, because it was discussed a LONG TIME AGO,
Darwin talked about going to Oregon.
Q. Was THIS a discussion in 1983?
A. You're asking me when it was first raised?
Q. Right.
A. I'm sure he -- 1983. I'm sure he discussed it BEFORE
1983.
Q. Okay. Do you know whether it was considered by him in
the early part of 1983?
A. Early part? I believe it was, yes, I'm sure it was.
Q. Did you have any discussions with him concerning that
subject in which OTHER REPRESENTATIVES OF ECKANKAR, whether
officers or members of the board of trustees, participated?
A. In 1983?
[pg 81]
Q. Yes.
A. Before the meeting of June of 1983?
Q. Yes.
A. I can't pinpoint the time. I'm sure if I reviewed
the minutes of the board meeting prior to June of 1983
that there would be some references to it, because it was
very much on his mind, and he had a -- you know, HE DID
DISCUSS THINGS and particularly the OREGON MATTER with the
BOARD AT GREAT LENGTH both in 1983 and 1982, talked about
HIS OWN FUTURE also in terms of continuing his -- what he
called MISSIONARY ACTIVITIES OF Eckankar.
Q. Can you tell me the FIRST TIME that you recall that
subject having been raised with the BOARD OF TRUSTEES at a
MEETING, whether it was in 1982 or 1983?
A. Not without reviewing the minutes, I couldn't recall the
time that would be.
Q. Do you recall the specific discussion?
A. Well, I think there was one meeting during that period of
time when we were in the -- the board was meeting in HAWAII,
and at that time he talked about the -- his future so far as
what HE WANTED TO DO FOR ECKANKAR and the idea of ...
[pg 82]
... OPERATING IN OREGON. That could also be somewhat related
to that Salishan building, in terms of time.
Q. Do you recall what was discussed by him in terms of the
activities be wanted to do in Oregon?
A. Well, I don't know that it was all the activities be was
going to do in Oregon, but the idea of that being a place for
him to operate in which he was talking about doing continuing
his publication, doing more work with his music, making trips
around the world. and around the country with his music, and
talks and that kind of thing, having THAT [place] act as kind
of missionary headquarters, if you will.
Q. Was there discussion in that context about HIS WORKING with
the PUBLISHED OR UNPUBLISHED WRITINGS OF PAUL TWITCHELL?
A. Yes. The -- he felt that there were still A LOT OF
unpublished WORKS of Paul Twitchell that he thought SHOULD BE
REVIEWED and PUBLISHED or at least consideration for
publishing given.
Q, At the time that this was --
A. Did you --
Q. Go ahead.
A. I mean he had OTHER Publishing IDEAS TOO.
[pg 83]
Q. Were those discussed with the board at this meeting in
Hawaii?
A. A PLANNING MEETING, YES. HIS OVERALL FUTURE WAS DISCUSSED
including that kind of thing AND MORE, TOO.
Q. Well, can you tell me what else was discussed at that
meeting concerning HIS FUTURE?
MR. ESLER: Could we have a date on the meeting?
MR. AXELROD: I think we had it as sometime in '82.
MR. ESLER: And have we got any limitation on how broad you want
that question to be? Are we talking about general discussions
or are we talking about discussions that would have called upon
Mr. Nichols to perform duties for Eckankar as its legal counsel?
MR. AXELROD: I believe my question was as to the general
discussion which took place concerning future or long-range
plans of the type of activities that Darwin Gross would perform
for Eckankar.
THE WITNESS: I think that is in essence -- those are fairly
broad brush of the things. He was also interested and talked
about the ...
[pg 84]
.. VARIOUS ATTACKS ON Eckankar and HOW TO INSULATE Eckankar
from that. He discussed the --
[NOTE: The SCP expose on Eckankar in 1979/1980; plus David Lane
had published his first version of his TMOASM paperback in
April 1983. Also note that Darwin was responsible for the recent
publishing of LTG Vol 3 which was delivered to Menlo Park HO in
early June 1983, and that this specific book had generated much
conflict in Head Office, which included Patti Simpson-Rivinus
and which Klemp discussed at the Oct 1983 HI meeting.
16,000 copies of LTG3 were pulped under orders of Klemp in Sept.
1983. These matters are directly related to the comment above
"various attacks on Eckankar" plus "HOW to insulate Eckankar"
from further external criticisms, exposés, new revelations, and
attacks. ]
MR. ESLER: Wait a minute. Now, before you go on beyond that,
that clearly would be ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE material.
If he's talking to you about the ways of insulating Eckankar
from attacks on the outside, that would clearly be ASKING FOR
LEGAL ADVICE, so I would instruct you not to answer the question,
so, go ahead, Mr. Nichols, IF YOU are able to answer the
question without discussing any thing discussed by Mr. Nichols
about insulating Eckankar from attacks. Anything else?
THE WITNESS; Well, in terms of what his future -- I believe
that the subject matter here is talking about what HIS FUTURE
was to be so far as operations from Oregon, and I think just
get more details of the same thing that I've mentioned in
terms of his activities in the very -- I'm using the word
missionary activity.
Q. (By Hr. Axelrod) Now, I take it this all took place at the
meeting in Hawaii?
A. There was a planning meeting in Hawaii during the period of
time you're talking about and that was PARTICULARLY DISCUSSED
AT THAT MEETING. [ In 1982 !!! ]
[pg 85]
[Nichols continues...]
Again, it was -- the subject of -- you asked me only about --
not about general moves of Eckankar but JUST THE ONES OF
DARWIN --
Q. Correct.
A. -- to carry out HIS ACTIVITIES, but you really can't
separate the fact that there was discussions about a -- a
lot of discussions over quite A LONG PERIOD OF TIME ABOUT
OREGON both as to the overall operation of Eckankar and HIS
OWN PARTICIPATION.
Q. Okay. Were the planning sessions that you refer to
sessions in which ALL OF THE MEMBERS of the board of
trustees participate?
A. All that were there. I would have to review the minutes
to know which ones, if there were any absent.
Q. Do you recall whether any --
A. If they are all there, I may be mistaken.
Q. Do you recall whether any employees of Eckankar who were
not members of the board of trustees participated in this
planning session?
A. So far as the board planning sessions?
Q. Yes.
A. There may have been -- I would have to say I don't
remember. There was another planning ....
[pg 86]
... session again which the time I can't place without
refreshing my recollection so far as minutes would be
concerned, a planning session in Menlo Park, and at that
time various alternatives were talked about and there were
employees at that meeting.
Q. Can you give us any kind of a ballpark time frame for that
meeting?
A. No. I wouldn't have -- I'd be just guessing on that.
Q. Would it be before or after Hawaii?
A. We established the date of Hawaii as what time?
Q. I don't think we've established it. My best recollection
is that it's in OCTOBER OF 1982, but that could be in error.
A. Well, I think that would be in error. October of '82,
although I may be wrong. I would say Menlo Park meeting
probably would be before that time, planning meeting.
Q. Were these planning sessions efforts to take a long-range
look at where Eckankar was going in the period over a number
of years?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. At the panning session in Hawaii was there any discussion
with respect to Darwin Gross'...
[pg 87]
... proposed relocation to Oregon about the size of that
operation, either its budget, the number of people, if any
other than Darwin that might be involved, or the like?
A. THERE HAVE BEEN SUCH DISCUSSIONS, but whether there was
actual budget at the HAWAII meeting, I don't remember.
Again, in reviewing the minutes, I might be able to respond
better.
Q. Do you recall any specific discussion about the size of
the operation? In other words, was it Darwin, Darwin and 50
people or Darwin and one person or --
A. Only that the size -- where we're talking about just
Darwin's operation was intended to be much smaller than the
size of Eckankar in Menlo Park, OF COURSE.
Q. Was there any discussion about WHAT ROLE IF ANY HE would
continue to have in the MANAGEMENT OF MENLO PARK operation
IF HE RELOCATED TO OREGON at this time in Hawaii?
A. I think that discussion was contemplating HIS NOT MANAGING
MENLO PARK and either being TITULAR PRESIDENT in terms of being
available or NOT BEING AN OFFICER AT ALL and only being
available ON CALL in a kind of CONSULTING CAPACITY or ...
[pg 88]
... being -- that would be basically it. I think that was
based on the idea of HIS NOT BEING -- at least having the
FULL TIME DAY-TO-DAY MANAGEMENT OF ECKANKAR.
Q. You indicated that it was possibly tied in in point of
time to the SALISHAN PROPERTY.
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me what connection there is?
A. Well, only that that's where he either -- HE WAS GOING
TO LIVE or THEY WERE BUILDING A PLACE FOR HIM TO LIVE THERE.
He would operate out of there.
Q. Were you a member of the board of trustees when the
Salishan property in its undeveloped state was purchased?
A. I don't remember.
MR. RAPAPORT: Were you a member of the board at the time of
the purchase of Salishan?
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I believe I was, but I'm not
sure.
Q. (By Mr. Axelrod) Do you recall whether you were a member
of the board when plans were developed for the construction
of a residence?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me whether there were meetings of ...
[pg 89]
... the board of trustees at which the proposed or actual
construction of that house was reviewed and discussed by the
members of the board?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me what the EARLIEST SUCH DISCUSSION WAS?
A. Prior to construction, I can't -- I'd have to refresh my
recollection as to the timing. I don't remember when that
construction started or when the property was purchased.
Q. Do you recall what the discussion was?
A. Excuse me. What?
Q. Do you recall what the discussion was?
A. About Salishan?
Q. Yes.
A. As I've indicated, as A PLACE WHERE DARWIN WOULD OPERATE
FROM, and there was discussion and talk about -- plans were
shown and discussed and so forth.
Q. Was there a review by the BOARD of trustees of the
PROPOSED COST of construction before that construction
commenced?
A. YES, there was a discussion of the cost. Whether there was
a -- I'd have to look at the record as to whether in any of
the reports to ....
[pg 90]
... the board, there WAS, you know, a description of the
DETAILED ESTIMATE OF COST. I know that there was estimates of
the cost.
Q. Were those the responsibility or were those
responsibilities assumed by any particular member of the
board?
A. Well, sure, because Bob Engel was the architect on the job.
Q. Would he provide written reports to the board?
A. What was the question?
Q. Do you recall whether he provided WRITTEN REPORTS to the
board concerning the proposed construction or the plans as he
developed them?
A. I can remember SEEING, you know, REPORTS AND PLANS.
As to whether they were formally a part of the minutes and the
reports given to the boards, I don't remember. I KNOW PARTS --
AT LEAST SOME ASPECTS OF IT WERE.
Q. Following the Hawaii meeting, do you recall any further
discussion AT BOARD of Trustees meetings concerning the
RELOCATION by Darwin Gross TO OREGON a small staff to perform
the work which you previously described?
A. You say after the [Hawaii] meeting?
Q. Yes.
[pg 91]
A. It seems to me that there was a lot of discussion by a
lot of people about the Oregon operations and WHAT Darwin was
planning to do in Oregon through ALL OF 1983, right up to the
June [BOARD] MEETING.
Q. Can you tell me what specific conversations you can recall
having participated in, whether you spoke or just observed,
prior to the June [1983] meeting at which a representative of
Eckankar was present in which that subject was discussed?
A. As to what Darwin's plans were, if there was a meeting
again I would have to review the minutes of the meeting
between -- that is after the Hawaii meeting [Oct 1982] and
before the June meeting [1983] and I think there MUST HAVE
BEEN discussion about the Oregon operation at that time.
MR. ESLER: I'm not sure I understand what you meant by
"that time".
THE WITNESS: If there was any board meetings between Hawaii
and June of '83.
MR. ESLER: There would have been a discussion.
MR. AXELROD: Mike, it's real difficult to hear you.
MR. ESLER: The record will reflect that .....
[pg 92]
... there was a board meeting in January 1983.
THE WITNESS. I would have to review those minutes to -- there
was -- again I believe it was sometime in that time that the
SALISHAN HOUSE WAS COMPLETED or at least that it was getting
close to completion, and there were discussions at that time
particularly with BOB ENGEL as to the completion and the --
there was I think some changes at the end and some revisions
of the job and so forth, all of which Bob Engel was
knowledgeable about, and talked to me about, and there may
have been others present, too.
MR. ESLER: Mr. Axelrod?
MR. AXELROD: Yes.
MR. RAPAPORT: Let the record reflect that you had provided us
with minutes of the January 29, 1983 meeting which I'm looking
at BUT THERE ARE MAIN PARAGRAPHS MISSING from these MINUTES
and therefore it's IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL WHAT WAS DISCUSSED and
WHAT WASN'T.
I see no reference in my review of those minutes to a
discussion of Oregon, but I've only taken a quick look, but I
think it establishes there WAS A January 29, 1983 meeting of
the ...
[pg 93]
... board. Sorry for the interruption.
Q. (By Mr. Axelrod) Mr. Nichols do you have a recollection of
the board meeting at the Creative Arts Festival?
MR. ESLER: You mean independent of his review of the minutes
that you've handed him?
MR. AXELROD: Yes.
MR. ESLER: Did you hear that, Mr. Axelrod?
MR. AXELROD: Yes.
ESLER: Okay. Well, I'm asking you to clarify the question
Q. (By Mr. Axelrod) Mr. Nichols, independent of your review of
the version of the minutes of the meeting of June 12 and June
13 [1983] which is contained in Exhibit 7 or the version which
commences with document number 11873, do you have a
recollection of the board meeting at the Creative Arts
Festival?
A. I have an independent recollection of the board meeting
in St. Louis, yes.
Q. Was there a discussion of Mr. Gross relocating to Oregon
with a small staff at that meeting?
A. Yes
Q. Were you present during that discussion?
[pg 94]
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether ALL OF THE MEMBERS OF THE BOARD OF
TRUSTEES WERE?
A. Yes.
[ NOTE: This clearly then includes BOTH Klemp and Skelskey
were present. ]
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Brent [BOB BRANT] was present?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether Jan Davidson [Trustee] was present
at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us what was discussed?
A. As to what?
Q. By the members of the board of trustees concerning
Darwin's RELOCATION TO OREGON?
MR. ESLER; Before you answer that question, Mr. Nichols, I'm
again going to advise you that if your answer calls upon you
to DIVULGE INFORMATION which you obtained in connection with
rendering LEGAL ADVICE or answering LEGAL QUESTIONS or
establishing LEGAL procedure or ANYTHING OF THE LIKE for
Eckankar, we're going to INSTRUCT YOU NOT TO ANSWER.
I'm NOT asking you to make a JUDGEMENT that it would be
ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGED MATERIAL.
All I'm saying is IF THAT'S GOING TO BE YOUR ANSWER,
DON'T GIVE IT.
[ end quote ]
PART THREE to follow
Message has been deleted
Peetee Aitchei
Oct 5, 2014, 9:47:21 AM10/5/14
to
On Sunday, 5 October 2014 18:06:03 UTC+11, Peetee Aitchei wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 October 2014 00:33:17 UTC+10, Peetee Aitchei wrote:
PART THREE - bit of a summary
> On Saturday, 4 October 2014 00:33:17 UTC+10, Peetee Aitchei wrote:
Darwin's known plans to relocate to Salem, OR - GROSS v ECKANKAR
Board of Trustees meeting at the Creative Arts Festival, in St Louis MO.
Present were the 7 Trustees: Sri Darwin Gross, Sri Harold Klemp, Alan Nichols,
Peter Skelskey, Bob Engel, Gordon Champion, Jan Davidson, plus Bob Brant,
Company Secretary (and Head Office Business Manager).
Next Dharma Aircraft Ltd [later known as Glen Eden Press] was discussed.
After discussion it was moved by Skelskey, seconded by Davidson and
unanimously passed:
RESOLVED: That Dharma Aircraft Ltd be renamed to work with other income
producing sources for ECKANKAR, and to hold copyrights on ECKANKAR books
and discourses.
RESOLVED FURTHER: That ECKANKAR Certificates of Deposits [ie funds in
term bank accounts/CDs] not required for current operations of ECKANKAR,
and as convenient, be transferred to the new Dharma corporation for its
OPERATIONS AND SAFEKEEPING.
[Note: Much of those CD funds were from Life-Time memberships accumulated
over the prior decade and more ]
It was decided to schedule the next Board Meeting during the weekend of
September 17-18, 1983, in Las Vegas. The AUDIT Committee meeting is to
be scheduled for LATE August, 1983, so that results could be available
prior to the Board meeting.
The meeting was adjourned at 9:55 A.M. on June 13, 1983.
See: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/aFyKyNB9SdQ/uj7BKd8Ljy4J
---
2) And from the 1983-10-23 Harold Klemp Speech Q&A HI Meeting at Seminar
Page 3 - EXHIBIT B
H.K.
[...] "and um I want to mention that this money that was moved [in June
& July 83] up to the Oregon organization, this corporation, which was a
baby corporation [legally and wholly owned by] from ECKANKAR which was
set up, $2.6 million, 260 thou, 2 million 600 thousand dollars was moved
up there, specifically against the advice of myself and the board members.
And he moved it anyway.
And it was to a corporation that had no ties legally to ECKANKAR. In other
no membership. And this is what we came and got back. And we couldn't get
it back at first. Well, (long pause) and I can't even touch on alot of this
stuff."
see:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/aFyKyNB9SdQ/uj7BKd8Ljy4J
and:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/UgZbnEsXHCw/jlW1P0UCTDoJ
---
3) Telling Lies:
"In many deceits the victim overlooks the liar's mistakes,
giving ambiguous behavior the best reading, [are collusive in]
helping to maintain the lie, to avoid the terrible consequences
of uncovering the lie."
and
"Not every victim is so willing. At times, there is nothing
to be gained by ignoring or cooperating with a lie.
Some lie catchers gain only by exposing a lie and if they do
so lose nothing. The police interrogator only loses if he is
taken in, as does the bank loan officer, and both do their job
well only by uncovering the liar and recognizing the truthful.
Often, the victim gains and loses by being misled or by
uncovering the lie; but the two may not be evenly balanced. "
and
"A LIAR CAN CHOOSE NOT TO LIE. Misleading the victim is
deliberate; the liar intends to misinform the victim. The lie
may or may not be justified, in the opinion of the liar or the
community. The liar may be a good or a bad person, liked or
disliked. But the person who lies could choose to lie or to be
truthful, and knows the difference between the two."
see:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/lsDSOBYw8qE/ZWuWC8nd7HMJ
---
4) Handling Hostile Attacks - Denials by Liars - Dead Agenting
Okay, so what we have here in Klemp's Oct 1983 HI speech is a Failed example
of intentional "Dead Agenting" Darwin Gross, absent the hard documented FACTS
to back up his claims. Claims that I say were and are provably false at the
time they were made, as well as now today.
Gross was verballed, slandered and libeled publicly by Klemp.
His "evidence" was this "list of notes" he kept referring to in his pocket.
THis is as simple as a pea and shell game, or what any good magician /
illusionist can do with slight of hand. In this case it is "slight of mouth".
If the LEM said he had prepared himself with LIST, and it is in the pants of
the LEM, then who am I to QUESTION HIM .... thinks every single HI at that
meeting. They have no evidence. Klemp has presented NONE himself. He simply
expects everyone will believe him and NOT question him or challenge him
publicly at this meeting.
And, that, is exactly what happened. And because of this as of Oct 22nd 1983
Darwin Gross had been effectively DEAD AGENTED by Klemp.
Reports of this meeting, by word of mouth proceeded to encircle the globe in
every ECK center. Klemp was very happy for whatever misinformation and
disinformation was spread word of mouth from the HIs out into the field.
see:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/7rFV6QBwkT8/n3Fdg0WiDCkJ
---
5) The "Black Magician" claim against Darwin Gross and others
When one points the finger of blame at another, there are always 3 fingers
pointing directly back to one self. Guaranteed!
In regards Psychology and Guilt, projection is the unconscious response to
label one's enemy with our own very flaws and failings. The abberated Ego
insists we must suppress this, cover it up, and deny it.
It's also known as the Pot Kettle Black syndrome, or the Mirroring effect.
It's a Dead Give-away and is always in plain sight, but all too often missed
when enamored by someone we love and adore, or when fed lies about others
which 'Poisons the Well' before we get to hear their "side of the story" or see
an ounce of factual evidence.
As of 2014, not one shred of evidence has ever been provided by Klemp to back
upon his accusations against Darwin Gross.
Well besides accusations that Gross spoke unkindly, or made jokes about Klemp
in 1983. Now that would be right, and is supported by several Witness
Statements.
The question is, well what if Gross was actually 100% spot on here, and was
merely speaking the truth about Klemps 18 month history of self-evident
failings and incompetence in the roles to which he was appointed?
Sure, Gross shouldn't have been ridiculing or bad mouthed Klemp to others,
even jokingly. He should have acted more maturely and instead lined up all
the Trustees and pushed through with removing Klemp as the living ECK Master
and Trustee in mid-1982. Long before Klemp conspired to act and bring on the
Coup to remove Gross, Nichols and Brant, without a shred of real evidence of
any wrong doing by any of them.... bar office Gossip and the foolishness of
relying solely upon "Priest penitent communications", and his own Paranoid
state.
Remembering that Klemp was pushed to act, he was not alone here nor was he
the real instigator or leader of the Coup.
There's that 12th July 1983 letter from Patti Simpson-Rivinus claiming she
represented all of the 8th Initiates of the day.
Why would the Mahanta, the living ECK master need to rely upon asking Patti
to ask all the 8th Initiates on his behalf, to contemplate on the issue of
Gross, and then for them to meet him on the Inner to discuss it?
According to Klemp himself, the Mahanta was NOT EVEN CAPABLE of calling an
Inner Meeting of the 8th Initiates by using his own and their INNER RESOURCES.
Apparently he had none then, and he has none now.
The Mahanta, the living ECK master was not even capable of seeking true inner
guidance from SUGMAD, or Rebazar Tarzs, or Yaubl Sacabi, or Fubbi Quantz the
three who where supposedly the ones to annoint him on the Inner, along with
Dap Ren as the new Living ECK master in Oct 1981.
The Nine Silent Ones were apparently also silent in assisting Klemp as well.
In writing to Gross he repeatedly relied upon quoting writings by Twitchell,
and even then he got it all wrong and backwards. In responding to the claims
of plagiarism by Twitchell in 1984 he had to rely upon a DREAM he had of the
major Astral Library.
To enhance his own authenticity he scoured the archive of Twitchell to find a
penciled in "every 5 to a thousand years" quote about the Mahanta. Why? This
apparently proved that Gross could NOT ever have been a Mahanta because there
was no 5 year minimum gap as laid down in the DOGMA in the WRITINGS.
The next minute he is telling the same audience that the Truths of Eckankar
are never found in book!
The man is completely off the wall and duplicitous to the nth degree.
All very unconvincing stuff from start to finish.
Unless you choose to believe it, remain stuck inside Cognitive Dissonance and
ignore the substantial evidence and the facts that prove he is a common liar
and an Grossly Incompetent.
---
6) Key Issues - Connecting the Dots
OR - You must place each jigsaw piece in it's correct position and orientation,
or the Picture on the Box will never be formed correctly.
Klemp was out of his depth and incompetent. He was also a bit of a wimp, and
has always been a wimp and an approval seeker.
The Oct 22nd 1983 HI talk was one of many public self-effacing, oh poor me,
"Harry the Hopeless Pity Parties" and they have continued like this to this
day! His post broken hip seminar talk however does take the first prize for
cringing attention seeking.
No one in this spiritual guru business has taken so much time and effort to
trash the reputations and diminish the competence of his forebears at every
opportunity, in order to pump up his own IMAGE to an already captured audience.
And Klemp has always known he is a total fraud too. Especially once he got
to see Twitchell's private archive and unpublished writings in late 1983
into early 1984 before he began giving his talks about Twitchell.
That "loss of an Ideal" he spoke about was his own loss. The "5 stages of
grief" he spoke about was his own Grief. Everything then and since has been
one great lie after another.
Gross was always a "true believer" and he still wanted to get Twitchells
unpublished manuscripts edited and out there into the 1990s.
Under Klemp's rule, not one thing has been published of Twitchell's since
that 1983/1990 Letters to Gail III book.
NOTHING.
But it all came from the astral library. Right?
It's only 1-2% plagiarized the rest is from the inner and out of the mouths
of ECK masters right?
Then why did Patti Simpson go out of her way to suggest:
"Come with me on a little trip. Let's peek in on Paul Twitchell doing
his work. We enter his study and we see a giant form bent over a work
table. He is putting together what seems to be a huge jigsaw puzzle.
Each piece is intricately shaped and labeled. This one says
Christianity, another Buddhism, there's Hinduism, Zen, Islam, Judaism,
Rosicrucians, Scientology, Astrology, Geometry, Psychology,
Spiritualism, Zoroastrianism, and so on. Slowly, carefully, piece by
piece he puts them together until there is one great picture for us to
see."
see: Hello Friend, Copyright 1981 by Patti Simpson, p. 82
No mention of New Thought, Theosophy, Radhasoami, Ruhani, Sant Mat,
Sufis, Mormans, Freemasons, convicted Kung Fu teachers, the Marquis
de Sade, Sudar Singh, or the 10 Sikhs Gurus?
No mention of any dictation or inner communications from ECK masters
like RT, FQ, YS, GD, RN, KD, nor the invisible Shariyat in every plane's
Golden Wisdom Temple?
Now isn't that very odd?
Even just a little, odd?
The Truth is in plain view. Always has been.
Klemp claims he removed all of Darwin's Initiations in January 1984.
Patti Simpson claims for a decade before she died, that NO ONE can take
your Inner Initiations away. Not no one!
And now her ever not humble servant, and #1 student Marman, is telling his
new hidden internet group of followers on his secret, invitation only,
Bright Future REDUX Group, that Klemp is no longer the Mahanta even!
Someone else is! But clever Dougie, the same incompetent history researcher
who can barely add up properly, won't tell us who it is.
It's a new spiritual test for the advanced souls to work out, see?
Even though Twitchell said he was openly, Gross said he was, and Klemp still
says he is, but no, no, the new Marmankar Path to Enlightenment has some VERY
NEW and UNIQUE Doctrinal opinions that sets it apart from all others.
It's the Glory Road now, the others, are but cheap copies that have lost their
inner vibrancy, see? Heard it all before have we?
When the situation changes, then the facts also have to change or the
gig is up. And someone is going to look like a fool.
Don't let it be yourself, unless you like that kind of thing.
Each to their own!
Still more to come later .....
Peace!
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