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Thoughts on Plagiarism
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Azutmai
Feb 28, 2019, 8:07:01 PM2/28/19
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To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
As has been stated before . . . when Paul found a passage in a book that already said exactly what he wanted to say . . . why re-word it? With the many books he read to even come up with such compilations . . . was he supposed to re-word certain passages simply to placate those who would point their “plagiarism” finger?
Why?
If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
Paul knew that if an individual was going to let plagiarism stop the acceptance of said information . . . then that person is easily stopped from discovering deeper Truth. A person needs strength, courage, risk-taking, stamina, and passion to walk the far reaches of Truth. Obstacles will always be thrown in the way . . . no matter what level of initiation or consciousness one inhabits.
Is the overall use of the information still useable and pertinent? Ask yourself that! Information is information no mater who said it and where it comes from. Discernment is key. YoU decide what you wish to believe . . . and test . . . to determine its usefulness.
I would challenge most anyone . . . myself included . . . to gather as much information in just one of Paul’s books . . . gather as much information from scratch . . . and bring it all together into your own book. What a favor he did for us. Nowhere else is such a composite of information brought together . . . often from books and documents that are not available to the public . . . and put them out for the public to attain. If you think he did such a low job . . . then we are all waiting for your first publication. Try not to simply accuse . . . SHOW us you can do better . . . or even as good . . . and we better not find *one* sentence in your book that can be found elsewhere . . . whether you are aware of such publications or not.
To those of you who hold and oppose so fiercely Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . . this reveals much more about where YoU are on the Path rather than where Paul was . . . and is . . . or certainly where the teachings of Eckankar lie. One might be wise to deeply consider this.
As far as Rebezar is concerned . . . your approach and demands are exactly the perfect way to NOT meet this Master. No Eck Master . . . save for the current Living Eck Master . . . will meet an individual simply because that individual demands that it be so. This is NOT about meeting someone in the penthouse of a high-rise office building simply because you make an appointment to that end. You will meet Rebezar or any other true Eck Master when you earn the right to do so.
Paul also dismissed the idea of plagiarism and of using names for various beings because he knew that if the individual allowed such things to determine whether information was accepted or not . . . then that person still had much work to do with his own perseverance, courage, strength, risk-taking, stamina, and a passion to dig beneath what is popularly known and accepted to find that deeper Truth that all hunger for. Information is information no matter whose name is attached to it.
There are endless obstacles that lie in front of anyone that wishes to truly uncover any greater Truth in the understanding of LIFE. Pitfalls, traps, obstacles, and mis-directs will always be in the way. Even it is as easy to stop someone’s search as grasping onto the practice of plagiarism . . . then LIFE will be your greater Teacher . . . and by LIFE . . . I mean . . . many more lifetimes . . . just to start.
It is ALWAYS easy to point an accusing finger. In the mental worlds . . . it is simple to find a reason to believe . . . or disbelieve. Your choice. Levels of faith need to be juggled . . . then opinions . . . then to beliefs . . . and then on to greater knowledge and finally to understanding. If you are looking for a reason to disbelieve . . . then you . . . and many others . . . have found a very small feature that will satisfy your reason to disbelieve. The teachings of Eckankar do not promote “believe what we say without question.” The teachings WANT you to go out and prove it for yourself. If you have found your reason to disbelieve . . . then set it aside and move on elsewhere. It’s that easy.
But I will tell you this . . . the Masters ARE real. The planes / dimensions / inner worlds ARE real. The Sounds of the planes ARE real. Belief is not mandatory for their Truth to prevail. It is a constant development into greater understanding . . . and it takes for-EV-er to even get close.
A very little known underlying element in all of this is that it is NOT we who accept the greater truths of LIFE . . . but it is LIFE who accepts the individual into discovering deeper and deeper facets of LIFE IT-self. The mental philosophies and religions . . . we mentally read and take them into our acceptance of life here in these worlds . . . but to go beyond this . . . Spirit accepts us . . . it is NOT that we accept Spirit . . . with all the preliminaries and prerequisites involved in this acceptance by Spirit into the awareness and understanding of Life beyond the psychic / mental worlds. One must work towards the end to even begin to actually walk thru the door of Greater Truth.
By demanding . . . “Hey Spirit . . . if information is going to become available . . . then I want it presented THIS way . . . with plenty of footnotes . . . portraits of the author . . . quadruple-checked for authenticity . . . and don’t be using words that ANY-body else used . . . ever!” - - that is NOT the way for anyone to work their way beyond what the masses readily accept and live by.
It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not listen . . . or is simply in the conversation for the battle. Adventure lies ahead on any Path. Pick your direction . . . and move on.
As has been stated before . . . when Paul found a passage in a book that already said exactly what he wanted to say . . . why re-word it? With the many books he read to even come up with such compilations . . . was he supposed to re-word certain passages simply to placate those who would point their “plagiarism” finger?
Why?
If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
Paul knew that if an individual was going to let plagiarism stop the acceptance of said information . . . then that person is easily stopped from discovering deeper Truth. A person needs strength, courage, risk-taking, stamina, and passion to walk the far reaches of Truth. Obstacles will always be thrown in the way . . . no matter what level of initiation or consciousness one inhabits.
Is the overall use of the information still useable and pertinent? Ask yourself that! Information is information no mater who said it and where it comes from. Discernment is key. YoU decide what you wish to believe . . . and test . . . to determine its usefulness.
I would challenge most anyone . . . myself included . . . to gather as much information in just one of Paul’s books . . . gather as much information from scratch . . . and bring it all together into your own book. What a favor he did for us. Nowhere else is such a composite of information brought together . . . often from books and documents that are not available to the public . . . and put them out for the public to attain. If you think he did such a low job . . . then we are all waiting for your first publication. Try not to simply accuse . . . SHOW us you can do better . . . or even as good . . . and we better not find *one* sentence in your book that can be found elsewhere . . . whether you are aware of such publications or not.
To those of you who hold and oppose so fiercely Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . . this reveals much more about where YoU are on the Path rather than where Paul was . . . and is . . . or certainly where the teachings of Eckankar lie. One might be wise to deeply consider this.
As far as Rebezar is concerned . . . your approach and demands are exactly the perfect way to NOT meet this Master. No Eck Master . . . save for the current Living Eck Master . . . will meet an individual simply because that individual demands that it be so. This is NOT about meeting someone in the penthouse of a high-rise office building simply because you make an appointment to that end. You will meet Rebezar or any other true Eck Master when you earn the right to do so.
Paul also dismissed the idea of plagiarism and of using names for various beings because he knew that if the individual allowed such things to determine whether information was accepted or not . . . then that person still had much work to do with his own perseverance, courage, strength, risk-taking, stamina, and a passion to dig beneath what is popularly known and accepted to find that deeper Truth that all hunger for. Information is information no matter whose name is attached to it.
There are endless obstacles that lie in front of anyone that wishes to truly uncover any greater Truth in the understanding of LIFE. Pitfalls, traps, obstacles, and mis-directs will always be in the way. Even it is as easy to stop someone’s search as grasping onto the practice of plagiarism . . . then LIFE will be your greater Teacher . . . and by LIFE . . . I mean . . . many more lifetimes . . . just to start.
It is ALWAYS easy to point an accusing finger. In the mental worlds . . . it is simple to find a reason to believe . . . or disbelieve. Your choice. Levels of faith need to be juggled . . . then opinions . . . then to beliefs . . . and then on to greater knowledge and finally to understanding. If you are looking for a reason to disbelieve . . . then you . . . and many others . . . have found a very small feature that will satisfy your reason to disbelieve. The teachings of Eckankar do not promote “believe what we say without question.” The teachings WANT you to go out and prove it for yourself. If you have found your reason to disbelieve . . . then set it aside and move on elsewhere. It’s that easy.
But I will tell you this . . . the Masters ARE real. The planes / dimensions / inner worlds ARE real. The Sounds of the planes ARE real. Belief is not mandatory for their Truth to prevail. It is a constant development into greater understanding . . . and it takes for-EV-er to even get close.
A very little known underlying element in all of this is that it is NOT we who accept the greater truths of LIFE . . . but it is LIFE who accepts the individual into discovering deeper and deeper facets of LIFE IT-self. The mental philosophies and religions . . . we mentally read and take them into our acceptance of life here in these worlds . . . but to go beyond this . . . Spirit accepts us . . . it is NOT that we accept Spirit . . . with all the preliminaries and prerequisites involved in this acceptance by Spirit into the awareness and understanding of Life beyond the psychic / mental worlds. One must work towards the end to even begin to actually walk thru the door of Greater Truth.
By demanding . . . “Hey Spirit . . . if information is going to become available . . . then I want it presented THIS way . . . with plenty of footnotes . . . portraits of the author . . . quadruple-checked for authenticity . . . and don’t be using words that ANY-body else used . . . ever!” - - that is NOT the way for anyone to work their way beyond what the masses readily accept and live by.
It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not listen . . . or is simply in the conversation for the battle. Adventure lies ahead on any Path. Pick your direction . . . and move on.
Tisra Til
Feb 28, 2019, 8:53:40 PM2/28/19
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If the psychic-mental level is so unnecessary, why write 13+ books, most of which are rehashings of the previous book, which were sold FOR PROFIT (how gracious oh godman of the universe!)?
And Eckankar has no dogma? HAH! I suggest you engage in some critical thinking, and actually read the Sharyat-Ki-Sugmad. I think you may find plenty of dogma there to hash over.
And one other thing you say. 'Spirit finds us'. Huh? We are spirit. We can't find what we already are. We just realize it, and there is no need for a so-called "Master". They are a dime a dozen. Life itself is the real master. I think a real master would say that.
Not some tiny man self-proclaiming himself as such.
And Eckankar has no dogma? HAH! I suggest you engage in some critical thinking, and actually read the Sharyat-Ki-Sugmad. I think you may find plenty of dogma there to hash over.
And one other thing you say. 'Spirit finds us'. Huh? We are spirit. We can't find what we already are. We just realize it, and there is no need for a so-called "Master". They are a dime a dozen. Life itself is the real master. I think a real master would say that.
Not some tiny man self-proclaiming himself as such.
fife
Feb 28, 2019, 9:06:00 PM2/28/19
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Ha ha ha. It just never ends. Does it.
Plagiarism isn't a crime. Reproducing someone else's copyrighted material and passing it off as your own, however, is. Two crimes in fact. Theft. And fraud. And there was and is nothing "scant" about the extent of it via a vis Paul Twitchell.
Plagiarism isn't a crime. Reproducing someone else's copyrighted material and passing it off as your own, however, is. Two crimes in fact. Theft. And fraud. And there was and is nothing "scant" about the extent of it via a vis Paul Twitchell.
J. Sanders
Feb 28, 2019, 9:26:02 PM2/28/19
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On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 6:07:01 PM UTC-7, Azutmai wrote:
> To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
Yeah right... pull the other one while you're at it.
> To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
Etznab
Feb 28, 2019, 10:02:51 PM2/28/19
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But you can't explain that. Can you? Because Harold hasn't explained it and so perhaps the lot of members in Eckankar feel helpless to explain it either. No one in Eckankar to my knowledge has explained why Rebazar Tarzs plagiarized so much and then told Paul Twitchell to write it down.
"DIALOGUES WITH THE MASTER are a series of spiritual discourses which were taken down when Rebazar Tarzs, the ageless emissary for ECKANKAR in the world today, appeared to me nightly in his light body for practically one year and dictated them. [... .]"
[Based on: Introduction, p. 7, Dialogues with the Master, by Paul Twitchell, Eighth Printing - 1983]
Rebazar Tarzs says? Quoting:
A DIALOGUE ON GOD-REALIZATION
"Rebazar Tarzs aroused me out of a sound sleep about 1:30 a.m., and motioned for me to go to the writing desk and take a pencil to write. I resisted a little, but he ignored it completely and settled down on the edge of the bed to stare silently at the ceiling. In a few minutes he started talking.
R.T: "I want you to take down the following words as part of a discourse to give to the world. You will act as a channel for this message. Are you ready?"
[Based on: Introduction, p. 7, Dialogues with the Master, by Paul Twitchell, Eighth Printing - 1983]
Please explain this if you can. And if you need quotes to show how much Rebazar Tarzs plagiarized and told Paul to write it down I can give copious examples.
Of course if you tell me there wasn't any Rebazar Tarzs and that the plagiarism was all Paul's doing, I will understand.
Etznab
Feb 28, 2019, 10:31:13 PM2/28/19
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On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 7:07:01 PM UTC-6, Azutmai wrote:
1.) Did the Vardankar master earn the right to meet Rebazar Tarzs?
http://vardankar.com/books-about-vardankar/dialouges-with-rebazar-tarzs-vardankar-m/
2.) Did Duane The Great Writer earn the right?
http://fliphtml5.com/xtnm/pesy
(Please don't forget to click on the links.)
3.) Better yet. How about years ago those who claimed Rebazar Tarzs told them that Harold Klemp was no longer the Living Eck Master, but that Darwin Gross was?
The point here being that not everybody who claims having contacted a master really did. It could very well be their imaginations, and who are they to be authorities on the subject? I have also met Rebazar Tarzs. So Will you believe when I tell you about it? At times I also thought people I saw in everyday life were Rebazar Tarzs, or another Eck Master in disguise. So should you believe me just because I thought I saw Eck Master? And am I someone to tell other people about the Eck Masters? Of course my experiences I described actually happened years ago, before I witnessed paragraph after paragraph of Rebazar Tarzs saying words to Paul that were taken out of so many books by other authors.
One could today ask whether Paul Twitchell actually met any Rebazar Tarzs given all the examples of plagiarism "said to" come from him.
Nowadays we have all these people with intimate knowledge about Rebazar Tarzs. And guess what? He is allegedly telling other people what to write too! So are all of these things true? Let me repeat that. ARE ALL OF THESE THINGS TRUE?
Now how many years do you think it will take before many different factions of Rebazar Tarzs believers go to war with one another and fight over who is right?
I tell you that this is a pathetic situation that could have been prevented if somebody really cared to clean up the mess!
fife
Mar 1, 2019, 12:50:39 AM3/1/19
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On February 28 Etznab wrote:
I have also met Rebazar Tarzs. So Will you believe me when I tell you about it? At times I also thought people I saw in everyday life were Rebazar Tarzs, or another Eck Master in disguise. So should you believe me just because I thought I saw an Eck Master? ...happened years ago, before...
Thx for posting that.
I have also met Rebazar Tarzs. So Will you believe me when I tell you about it? At times I also thought people I saw in everyday life were Rebazar Tarzs, or another Eck Master in disguise. So should you believe me just because I thought I saw an Eck Master? ...happened years ago, before...
Thx for posting that.
Henosis Sage
Mar 1, 2019, 4:30:40 AM3/1/19
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On Friday, 1 March 2019 12:07:01 UTC+11, Azutmai wrote:
> To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
>
Please do me one little favour: Define your use of the word "scant".
> To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
>
Thank you
sign...@gmail.com
Mar 1, 2019, 10:14:25 AM3/1/19
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ECK Masters are as real as we are; meeting them isn't a matter of wishing. If it were I would never have met a single one.
But something occurred to me this morning. Could it be that some people are actually attached to the problem of 'plagiarism'? Having failed to progress spiritually via the teachings of ECKANKAR, does 'plagiarism' now give them a convenient peg to hang their angst on?
Given the shortness of life, can the perennial preoccupation with this theme be justified by results or enlightenment gained? Wouldn't finding another road to God in whatever time we have left make more sense?
fife
Mar 1, 2019, 10:52:24 AM3/1/19
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On March 1 sign...@gmail.com wrote
"Having failed to progress spiritually via the teachings of Eckankar..."
Rob, you just don't understand the arrogance of that progression of words or the assumption of elite status they make. Or rather you do, and are impressed by that and always have been impressed by that as your due. Rob, you're the one who's stuck. Unable to grasp vanity and humility or bring them into balance. Stuck in the etheric plane trying to change ego into Soul.
"Having failed to progress spiritually via the teachings of Eckankar..."
Rob, you just don't understand the arrogance of that progression of words or the assumption of elite status they make. Or rather you do, and are impressed by that and always have been impressed by that as your due. Rob, you're the one who's stuck. Unable to grasp vanity and humility or bring them into balance. Stuck in the etheric plane trying to change ego into Soul.
Azutmai
Mar 1, 2019, 12:50:45 PM3/1/19
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I absolutely love to read the replies to posts such as this. The conclusions drawn over misinterpretations . . . the “define this and define that” . . . “what about this and what about that” . . . etc. etc. etc. . . . all mental dance steps and cartwheels that will absolutely NEVER end. The mind will endlessly chew over the analysis, definition, labeling, and categorization of anything it contends with. It HAS to. That’s its purpose.
Many times . . . it is this endless wrestling match that finally brings enough personal fatigue that the individual will take previously too-risky steps to search and experiment beyond their previous limits. Old habits give up VERY reluctantly and often very slowly.
It is impossible for anyone to “prove” anything to a person that simply wishes to be combative and has found great safety in doing so. No one will gain on their own path until they take steps to do so. To try and persuade someone with “mental proof” is almost like getting behind that person and trying to push them forward . . . with both their heels digging trenches into their own path from sheer determination NOT to learn, to grow, to take the risk, to look beyond their limits.
We ALL do this. This is no criticism of anyone. And we will continue doing this until we are absolutely exhausted . . . one step . . . one topic . . . one feature . . . one habit at a time.
And we wonder why the path takes so long.
Many times . . . it is this endless wrestling match that finally brings enough personal fatigue that the individual will take previously too-risky steps to search and experiment beyond their previous limits. Old habits give up VERY reluctantly and often very slowly.
It is impossible for anyone to “prove” anything to a person that simply wishes to be combative and has found great safety in doing so. No one will gain on their own path until they take steps to do so. To try and persuade someone with “mental proof” is almost like getting behind that person and trying to push them forward . . . with both their heels digging trenches into their own path from sheer determination NOT to learn, to grow, to take the risk, to look beyond their limits.
We ALL do this. This is no criticism of anyone. And we will continue doing this until we are absolutely exhausted . . . one step . . . one topic . . . one feature . . . one habit at a time.
And we wonder why the path takes so long.
fife
Mar 1, 2019, 1:03:43 PM3/1/19
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Nothing that you write is in your own words from your own experience. Every sentence you use is an Eckankar cliche lifted directly from Eckankar's printed material. Someone else's words. Nothing you put forward expresses YOU and the essence of YOU, your own experience. You use love, the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, the Spiritual Exercises of ECK as an avenue to the Light and Sound of God, and the company of ECK Masters as a front. You expose yourself not at all. Either you don't know yourself, are afraid, or are afraid to know yourself. But however it is it just goes on and on.
There's a reason you keep coming back to a.r.e.. You have to ask yourself what your doubt is. What keeps you coming back for more. In your hope that by reinforcing your front you won't have to face that doubt which you know to be true but won't let yourself explore. Yourself.
I don't care what initiation you have. You can take it to the bank that you haven't found self realization yet because you're still hiding behind images and ideas created by someone else. You haven't gotten to the point where you've left that behind and are only hiding behind the images and ideas you, yourself have created. Or left that behind to find yourself, know yourself, and express yourself. Yourself.
And when I say "left behind" I don't mean it goes away. Rather, you no longer use it the way you did.
fife
Mar 1, 2019, 1:13:53 PM3/1/19
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Let's dance!
Put on your red shoes and dance the blues.
Azutmai
Mar 1, 2019, 1:37:57 PM3/1/19
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fife . . .
I applaud your ability and tendency to draw such conclusions after only two posts. Your statement revels more about you . . . than about me.
Safeguards are important. You now have a stated reason to accept or dismiss anything and everything according to personal whim.
Well done.
( Can you hear the doors closing ? )
Or . . . we tend to accept what is to our limit. Maybe you just found that out . . . which . . . can be an important step on the path.
Again . . . well done. You are to be commended. I don’t want to start a round of bickering. I’m sure you have your reasons for playing it safe . . . for making such accusations . . . for drawing such conclusions.
Next time . . . maybe . . . just maybe . . . find out a bit more before drawing such assessments. It is often very wise to ask some leading and pertinent questions to fine-tune ones observations before making such judgments. Now . . . however . . . I can dismiss any questions from you because I am no ‘sage’ and could never give you any information that is worthy of your viable scrutiny.
As I stated in the above post . . . I love seeing the comments to my initial post . . . where various people take them . . . what they do with them . . . the ways and reasons they accept or dismiss . . . etc.
I believe . . . I have read some of your previous posts . . . and thought rather highly of you.
Guess I may have to take another look at that. I won’t draw any final conclusions yet though.
I applaud your ability and tendency to draw such conclusions after only two posts. Your statement revels more about you . . . than about me.
Safeguards are important. You now have a stated reason to accept or dismiss anything and everything according to personal whim.
Well done.
( Can you hear the doors closing ? )
Or . . . we tend to accept what is to our limit. Maybe you just found that out . . . which . . . can be an important step on the path.
Again . . . well done. You are to be commended. I don’t want to start a round of bickering. I’m sure you have your reasons for playing it safe . . . for making such accusations . . . for drawing such conclusions.
Next time . . . maybe . . . just maybe . . . find out a bit more before drawing such assessments. It is often very wise to ask some leading and pertinent questions to fine-tune ones observations before making such judgments. Now . . . however . . . I can dismiss any questions from you because I am no ‘sage’ and could never give you any information that is worthy of your viable scrutiny.
As I stated in the above post . . . I love seeing the comments to my initial post . . . where various people take them . . . what they do with them . . . the ways and reasons they accept or dismiss . . . etc.
I believe . . . I have read some of your previous posts . . . and thought rather highly of you.
Guess I may have to take another look at that. I won’t draw any final conclusions yet though.
fife
Mar 1, 2019, 2:03:28 PM3/1/19
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Whoops! Who is judging who? I'm just trying to have some fun. Be light hearted. "And we wonder why the path takes so long?" We HOPE it takes long. 104 years. 105 years. Because it's our life we're talking about. In which (I should think) we hope to have some fun while we do what we do - learn, find some meaning, have some fun. It's not an "end game". Yeah?
No. I don't do judgement or end games any more. Questions? Inquiries? Open-mindedness? Yes. No doors closing here.
No. I don't do judgement or end games any more. Questions? Inquiries? Open-mindedness? Yes. No doors closing here.
fife
Mar 1, 2019, 2:54:41 PM3/1/19
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You don't know me either, Az. But I can forgive you for that. In fact we all have to forgive one another for that. The internet is the most tremendously artificial means of socialization that human beings have yet devised. It's all about greed and not about tolerance and forgiveness at all. The greatest challenge of this sort to the human spirit so far.
Greed, and tolerance and forgiveness. Take that up a notch. Tolerance and forgiveness, that is. In fact, take it up two notches and what do you get? Love and mercy. Because tolerance is love and love is tolerance. Forgiveness is mercy and mercy is forgiveness. Contemplate that for a while and see what you get. Perhaps you do. Most don't. They compartmentalize and don't see one thing is the same as another.
Greed, and tolerance and forgiveness. Take that up a notch. Tolerance and forgiveness, that is. In fact, take it up two notches and what do you get? Love and mercy. Because tolerance is love and love is tolerance. Forgiveness is mercy and mercy is forgiveness. Contemplate that for a while and see what you get. Perhaps you do. Most don't. They compartmentalize and don't see one thing is the same as another.
Azutmai
Mar 1, 2019, 5:54:15 PM3/1/19
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fife . . .
I thought about just dismissing your posts from now on . . . but then I reconsidered. Maybe there is something here that I can learn from you . . . about why people make such statements and assessments without basis. Maybe some of the other people who are reading this thread can also learn.
( Notice the use of precautionary words throughout . . . such as “maybe” and “guess” and “perhaps” and such. Such words leave statements open-ended . . . thus NOT making the statements judgements. These types of words leave room for refinement . . . for revision. People tend to read over the use of such words and take the statements as judgmental. That too . . . is very self-revealing. )
And so . . . I would like to ask . . . why is it that you would make such as statement as “You are no _____” . . . and put just about ANY word in that blank . . . with little support or basis for such an accusation? I mean . . . WHY would you do that? What did you hope to gain?
You say you make no judgements . . . but in one of the above posts to Rob . . . and I will admit . . . I know nothing of Rob so I have no idea whether your statement is true or not . . . but then you claim . . . “Rob . . . you don’t understand _____”. I have to ask . . . it is okay by you to make such statements and then claim “I make no judgements” in a subsequent post?
Judgements are NOT . . . simple inquiry. Judgements are NOT . . . clarifying questions. Judgements are NOT . . . simple challenges.
Does that make sense?
What is your point of making such power plays ?
I mean . . . we all have to learn the path one step at a time.
Is just using the words “questions” and / or “inquiries” and / or “open-mindedness” . . . a sign of making judgements to you? Notice that I made no judgements when using those words. I simply suggested . . . you might make inquiries . . . you might ask questions . . . etc. Is usage of words like that . . . are those judgements to you?
Eckists put up with a lot of flack as they walk there section(s) of the path. We’re use to this.
The “human spirit” is not exactly what Eckists are interested in. And 100 or 104 years in a single physical lifetime is a FAR cry from the Path taking a long time and being difficult to follow.
A judgement is . . . Person A telling Person B . . . “You ARE this way . . . “ or “You are NOT this way . . . “ - - and filling in the ends of the sentences with good / bad / right / wrong / unknowing / ignorant / shot / tall / make / female / what-have-you.
Show me where in my post to you . . . I made such claims . . . using such definitive words.
But we’re back to my original question . . . WHY would you make the claims you did? You are in a religions section . . . in the Eckankar section of same . . . and someone comes in and makes two posts and you just have to clearly state . . . “You are NOT a ____”. It really makes little difference what word you used to end that statement. WHY . . . would you do that?
Or maybe . . . just maybe . . . the more pertinent question would be . . . do YOU know why you would do that?
Lastly . . . just what ARE the marks of a sage? What are the signs you would accept as such? Not just . . . “they would be more forgiving or they would be more tolerant” and such . . . because all of those are judgements calls depending upon either persons experience.
So what ARE the marks of a sage . . . that you so quickly drew from . . . to make your initial assessment?
I thought about just dismissing your posts from now on . . . but then I reconsidered. Maybe there is something here that I can learn from you . . . about why people make such statements and assessments without basis. Maybe some of the other people who are reading this thread can also learn.
( Notice the use of precautionary words throughout . . . such as “maybe” and “guess” and “perhaps” and such. Such words leave statements open-ended . . . thus NOT making the statements judgements. These types of words leave room for refinement . . . for revision. People tend to read over the use of such words and take the statements as judgmental. That too . . . is very self-revealing. )
And so . . . I would like to ask . . . why is it that you would make such as statement as “You are no _____” . . . and put just about ANY word in that blank . . . with little support or basis for such an accusation? I mean . . . WHY would you do that? What did you hope to gain?
You say you make no judgements . . . but in one of the above posts to Rob . . . and I will admit . . . I know nothing of Rob so I have no idea whether your statement is true or not . . . but then you claim . . . “Rob . . . you don’t understand _____”. I have to ask . . . it is okay by you to make such statements and then claim “I make no judgements” in a subsequent post?
Judgements are NOT . . . simple inquiry. Judgements are NOT . . . clarifying questions. Judgements are NOT . . . simple challenges.
Does that make sense?
What is your point of making such power plays ?
I mean . . . we all have to learn the path one step at a time.
Is just using the words “questions” and / or “inquiries” and / or “open-mindedness” . . . a sign of making judgements to you? Notice that I made no judgements when using those words. I simply suggested . . . you might make inquiries . . . you might ask questions . . . etc. Is usage of words like that . . . are those judgements to you?
Eckists put up with a lot of flack as they walk there section(s) of the path. We’re use to this.
The “human spirit” is not exactly what Eckists are interested in. And 100 or 104 years in a single physical lifetime is a FAR cry from the Path taking a long time and being difficult to follow.
A judgement is . . . Person A telling Person B . . . “You ARE this way . . . “ or “You are NOT this way . . . “ - - and filling in the ends of the sentences with good / bad / right / wrong / unknowing / ignorant / shot / tall / make / female / what-have-you.
Show me where in my post to you . . . I made such claims . . . using such definitive words.
But we’re back to my original question . . . WHY would you make the claims you did? You are in a religions section . . . in the Eckankar section of same . . . and someone comes in and makes two posts and you just have to clearly state . . . “You are NOT a ____”. It really makes little difference what word you used to end that statement. WHY . . . would you do that?
Or maybe . . . just maybe . . . the more pertinent question would be . . . do YOU know why you would do that?
Lastly . . . just what ARE the marks of a sage? What are the signs you would accept as such? Not just . . . “they would be more forgiving or they would be more tolerant” and such . . . because all of those are judgements calls depending upon either persons experience.
So what ARE the marks of a sage . . . that you so quickly drew from . . . to make your initial assessment?
fife
Mar 1, 2019, 6:43:20 PM3/1/19
to
Sheesh! You really are all about judgement. And compartmentalization. Ron is too.
Henosis Sage
Mar 1, 2019, 7:30:03 PM3/1/19
to
On Saturday, 2 March 2019 10:43:20 UTC+11, fife wrote:
> Sheesh! You really are all about judgement. And compartmentalization. ROB is too.
It's the way it is.
Anyway fwiw looks to me that Matthew Sharpe (Kinpa) went to visit JR in Seattle.
Which is probably why these comments reek of Kinpoop.
The 'fingerprints' are the same albeit the self-righteous know-it-all attitude and the projections being extremely common. It's a 'consciousness' thing.
> Sheesh! You really are all about judgement. And compartmentalization. ROB is too.
It's the way it is.
Anyway fwiw looks to me that Matthew Sharpe (Kinpa) went to visit JR in Seattle.
Which is probably why these comments reek of Kinpoop.
The 'fingerprints' are the same albeit the self-righteous know-it-all attitude and the projections being extremely common. It's a 'consciousness' thing.
Henosis Sage
Mar 1, 2019, 7:34:34 PM3/1/19
to
On Saturday, 2 March 2019 06:54:41 UTC+11, fife wrote:
> You don't know me either, Az. But I can forgive you for that. In fact we all have to forgive one another for that. The internet is the most tremendously artificial means of socialization that human beings have yet devised. It's all about greed and not about tolerance and forgiveness at all. The greatest challenge of this sort to the human spirit so far.
>
> Greed, and tolerance and forgiveness. Take that up a notch. Tolerance and forgiveness, that is. In fact, take it up two notches and what do you get? Love and mercy. Because tolerance is love and love is tolerance. Forgiveness is mercy and mercy is forgiveness. Contemplate that for a while and see what you get. Perhaps you do. Most don't. They compartmentalize and don't see one thing is the same as another.
That's really something. I like it .. kind of 'sung' as I read.
> You don't know me either, Az. But I can forgive you for that. In fact we all have to forgive one another for that. The internet is the most tremendously artificial means of socialization that human beings have yet devised. It's all about greed and not about tolerance and forgiveness at all. The greatest challenge of this sort to the human spirit so far.
>
> Greed, and tolerance and forgiveness. Take that up a notch. Tolerance and forgiveness, that is. In fact, take it up two notches and what do you get? Love and mercy. Because tolerance is love and love is tolerance. Forgiveness is mercy and mercy is forgiveness. Contemplate that for a while and see what you get. Perhaps you do. Most don't. They compartmentalize and don't see one thing is the same as another.
It's also directly connected to a side issue I have with people not dissimilar to a Rob or a Kinpoop, so I am going to plagiarise that fife, not give you credit either because I don't want this place hounded by ever more assholes than already pass by, but I won't make any money off it or use to pretend I am some world guru of the new age. :-)
Azutmai
Mar 1, 2019, 7:36:27 PM3/1/19
to
fife . . .
You could not have revealed yourself more clearly . . . if you tried.
ALL have learned from this.
Other than that . . . I have no comment . . . but I do wish you well.
You could not have revealed yourself more clearly . . . if you tried.
ALL have learned from this.
Other than that . . . I have no comment . . . but I do wish you well.
fife
Mar 1, 2019, 7:45:21 PM3/1/19
to
Henosis. Fine by me. Use away. In case you hadn't noticed I picked up on your "compartmentalization" from recent posts. That works well too.
Tisra Til
Mar 1, 2019, 7:54:03 PM3/1/19
to
fife
Mar 1, 2019, 8:14:58 PM3/1/19
to
T.T.
;-)
Gooses goosey gander,
Whither shall I wander?
Upstairs and downstairs
And in my lady's chamber.
There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers
So I took him by his left leg
And threw him down the stairs.
;-)
Gooses goosey gander,
Whither shall I wander?
Upstairs and downstairs
And in my lady's chamber.
There I met an old man who wouldn't say his prayers
So I took him by his left leg
And threw him down the stairs.
Etznab
Mar 1, 2019, 9:31:32 PM3/1/19
to
In case you forgot, besides the title of this thread that you created (Toughts on Plagiarism), your first words were:
"To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . ."
Please do me one little favour: Define your use of the word "scant".
Thank you
Etznab
Mar 1, 2019, 9:37:58 PM3/1/19
to
On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:36:27 PM UTC-6, Azutmai wrote:
You used the words "scant use of plagiarism" at least twice in your opening post.
So I am also asking you (the second person on this thread who has asked you), please do me one little favor and define your use of the word scant.
Etznab
Mar 1, 2019, 10:23:47 PM3/1/19
to
On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 7:07:01 PM UTC-6, Azutmai wrote:
> To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
>
>
> As has been stated before . . . when Paul found a passage in a book that already said exactly what he wanted to say . . . why re-word it? With the many books he read to even come up with such compilations . . . was he supposed to re-word certain passages simply to placate those who would point their “plagiarism” finger?
>
> Why?
>
> If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
>
> Paul knew that if an individual was going to let plagiarism stop the acceptance of said information . . . then that person is easily stopped from discovering deeper Truth. A person needs strength, courage, risk-taking, stamina, and passion to walk the far reaches of Truth. Obstacles will always be thrown in the way . . . no matter what level of initiation or consciousness one inhabits.
>
> Is the overall use of the information still useable and pertinent? Ask yourself that! Information is information no mater who said it and where it comes from. Discernment is key. YoU decide what you wish to believe . . . and test . . . to determine its usefulness.
>
> I would challenge most anyone . . . myself included . . . to gather as much information in just one of Paul’s books . . . gather as much information from scratch . . . and bring it all together into your own book. What a favor he did for us. Nowhere else is such a composite of information brought together . . . often from books and documents that are not available to the public . . . and put them out for the public to attain. If you think he did such a low job . . . then we are all waiting for your first publication. Try not to simply accuse . . . SHOW us you can do better . . . or even as good . . . and we better not find *one* sentence in your book that can be found elsewhere . . . whether you are aware of such publications or not.
>
> To those of you who hold and oppose so fiercely Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . . this reveals much more about where YoU are on the Path rather than where Paul was . . . and is . . . or certainly where the teachings of Eckankar lie. One might be wise to deeply consider this.
>
> As far as Rebezar is concerned . . . your approach and demands are exactly the perfect way to NOT meet this Master. No Eck Master . . . save for the current Living Eck Master . . . will meet an individual simply because that individual demands that it be so. This is NOT about meeting someone in the penthouse of a high-rise office building simply because you make an appointment to that end. You will meet Rebezar or any other true Eck Master when you earn the right to do so.
>
> Paul also dismissed the idea of plagiarism and of using names for various beings because he knew that if the individual allowed such things to determine whether information was accepted or not . . . then that person still had much work to do with his own perseverance, courage, strength, risk-taking, stamina, and a passion to dig beneath what is popularly known and accepted to find that deeper Truth that all hunger for. Information is information no matter whose name is attached to it.
>
> There are endless obstacles that lie in front of anyone that wishes to truly uncover any greater Truth in the understanding of LIFE. Pitfalls, traps, obstacles, and mis-directs will always be in the way. Even it is as easy to stop someone’s search as grasping onto the practice of plagiarism . . . then LIFE will be your greater Teacher . . . and by LIFE . . . I mean . . . many more lifetimes . . . just to start.
>
> It is ALWAYS easy to point an accusing finger. In the mental worlds . . . it is simple to find a reason to believe . . . or disbelieve. Your choice. Levels of faith need to be juggled . . . then opinions . . . then to beliefs . . . and then on to greater knowledge and finally to understanding. If you are looking for a reason to disbelieve . . . then you . . . and many others . . . have found a very small feature that will satisfy your reason to disbelieve. The teachings of Eckankar do not promote “believe what we say without question.” The teachings WANT you to go out and prove it for yourself. If you have found your reason to disbelieve . . . then set it aside and move on elsewhere. It’s that easy.
>
> But I will tell you this . . . the Masters ARE real. The planes / dimensions / inner worlds ARE real. The Sounds of the planes ARE real. Belief is not mandatory for their Truth to prevail. It is a constant development into greater understanding . . . and it takes for-EV-er to even get close.
>
> A very little known underlying element in all of this is that it is NOT we who accept the greater truths of LIFE . . . but it is LIFE who accepts the individual into discovering deeper and deeper facets of LIFE IT-self. The mental philosophies and religions . . . we mentally read and take them into our acceptance of life here in these worlds . . . but to go beyond this . . . Spirit accepts us . . . it is NOT that we accept Spirit . . . with all the preliminaries and prerequisites involved in this acceptance by Spirit into the awareness and understanding of Life beyond the psychic / mental worlds. One must work towards the end to even begin to actually walk thru the door of Greater Truth.
>
> By demanding . . . “Hey Spirit . . . if information is going to become available . . . then I want it presented THIS way . . . with plenty of footnotes . . . portraits of the author . . . quadruple-checked for authenticity . . . and don’t be using words that ANY-body else used . . . ever!” - - that is NOT the way for anyone to work their way beyond what the masses readily accept and live by.
>
> It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not listen . . . or is simply in the conversation for the battle. Adventure lies ahead on any Path. Pick your direction . . . and move on.
It's not a scant use of plagiarism. I think you created and opened this thread with a lie.
>
> Why?
>
> If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
>
> Paul knew that if an individual was going to let plagiarism stop the acceptance of said information . . . then that person is easily stopped from discovering deeper Truth. A person needs strength, courage, risk-taking, stamina, and passion to walk the far reaches of Truth. Obstacles will always be thrown in the way . . . no matter what level of initiation or consciousness one inhabits.
>
> Is the overall use of the information still useable and pertinent? Ask yourself that! Information is information no mater who said it and where it comes from. Discernment is key. YoU decide what you wish to believe . . . and test . . . to determine its usefulness.
>
> I would challenge most anyone . . . myself included . . . to gather as much information in just one of Paul’s books . . . gather as much information from scratch . . . and bring it all together into your own book. What a favor he did for us. Nowhere else is such a composite of information brought together . . . often from books and documents that are not available to the public . . . and put them out for the public to attain. If you think he did such a low job . . . then we are all waiting for your first publication. Try not to simply accuse . . . SHOW us you can do better . . . or even as good . . . and we better not find *one* sentence in your book that can be found elsewhere . . . whether you are aware of such publications or not.
>
> To those of you who hold and oppose so fiercely Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . . this reveals much more about where YoU are on the Path rather than where Paul was . . . and is . . . or certainly where the teachings of Eckankar lie. One might be wise to deeply consider this.
>
> As far as Rebezar is concerned . . . your approach and demands are exactly the perfect way to NOT meet this Master. No Eck Master . . . save for the current Living Eck Master . . . will meet an individual simply because that individual demands that it be so. This is NOT about meeting someone in the penthouse of a high-rise office building simply because you make an appointment to that end. You will meet Rebezar or any other true Eck Master when you earn the right to do so.
>
> Paul also dismissed the idea of plagiarism and of using names for various beings because he knew that if the individual allowed such things to determine whether information was accepted or not . . . then that person still had much work to do with his own perseverance, courage, strength, risk-taking, stamina, and a passion to dig beneath what is popularly known and accepted to find that deeper Truth that all hunger for. Information is information no matter whose name is attached to it.
>
> There are endless obstacles that lie in front of anyone that wishes to truly uncover any greater Truth in the understanding of LIFE. Pitfalls, traps, obstacles, and mis-directs will always be in the way. Even it is as easy to stop someone’s search as grasping onto the practice of plagiarism . . . then LIFE will be your greater Teacher . . . and by LIFE . . . I mean . . . many more lifetimes . . . just to start.
>
> It is ALWAYS easy to point an accusing finger. In the mental worlds . . . it is simple to find a reason to believe . . . or disbelieve. Your choice. Levels of faith need to be juggled . . . then opinions . . . then to beliefs . . . and then on to greater knowledge and finally to understanding. If you are looking for a reason to disbelieve . . . then you . . . and many others . . . have found a very small feature that will satisfy your reason to disbelieve. The teachings of Eckankar do not promote “believe what we say without question.” The teachings WANT you to go out and prove it for yourself. If you have found your reason to disbelieve . . . then set it aside and move on elsewhere. It’s that easy.
>
> But I will tell you this . . . the Masters ARE real. The planes / dimensions / inner worlds ARE real. The Sounds of the planes ARE real. Belief is not mandatory for their Truth to prevail. It is a constant development into greater understanding . . . and it takes for-EV-er to even get close.
>
> A very little known underlying element in all of this is that it is NOT we who accept the greater truths of LIFE . . . but it is LIFE who accepts the individual into discovering deeper and deeper facets of LIFE IT-self. The mental philosophies and religions . . . we mentally read and take them into our acceptance of life here in these worlds . . . but to go beyond this . . . Spirit accepts us . . . it is NOT that we accept Spirit . . . with all the preliminaries and prerequisites involved in this acceptance by Spirit into the awareness and understanding of Life beyond the psychic / mental worlds. One must work towards the end to even begin to actually walk thru the door of Greater Truth.
>
> By demanding . . . “Hey Spirit . . . if information is going to become available . . . then I want it presented THIS way . . . with plenty of footnotes . . . portraits of the author . . . quadruple-checked for authenticity . . . and don’t be using words that ANY-body else used . . . ever!” - - that is NOT the way for anyone to work their way beyond what the masses readily accept and live by.
>
> It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not listen . . . or is simply in the conversation for the battle. Adventure lies ahead on any Path. Pick your direction . . . and move on.
Paul Twitchell was found to have plagiarized in Orion magazine even long before his several Eckankar books. Orion stopped publishing Paul's articles after having discovered his plagiarism. And it was not so scant. It wasn't scant use of plagiarism that they opposed. And with Eckankar, it is also not a scant use of plagiarism that caused concern. Doug Marman talked about Harold Klemp after Harold started to discover a "growing list". It wasn't scant. And according to Doug, Harold was not happy about it!
"[...] The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library dream as well. [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/MCfVVo4-IMU/DGeP2NxpDAAJ
It was a "growing list" that Harold was not happy about. If the plagiarism had been scant, I suspect Harold would have felt differently.
The plagiarism is not scant.
As a matter of fact, the reason some people thought it was scant was because they looked at a scant amount only!
I think you should tell the truth when referring to Paul's plagiarism.
Henosis Sage
Mar 1, 2019, 11:24:58 PM3/1/19
to
On Saturday, 2 March 2019 11:45:21 UTC+11, fife wrote:
> Henosis. Fine by me. Use away. In case you hadn't noticed I picked up on your "compartmentalization" from recent posts. That works well too.
Oh have no fear Mr Fife, I noticed it! (smiling) Good show. This thread is surely another classic example of just that is it not?
> Henosis. Fine by me. Use away. In case you hadn't noticed I picked up on your "compartmentalization" from recent posts. That works well too.
It's common to also use the word "bubble" but it really doesn't get down into the mechanics of peoples thinking or explain what blew up that bubble in the first place. imho.
Though I am terribly saddened that you dropped the Sage part of my name. :-( It seems so apt in this present thread, hehehehe.
What can I add here? Well there is the thread title itself, it says a lot. It does not flow like this:
"Thoughts on Plagiarism and Paul's verbatim copying of so many other spiritual path's texts."
Nor like this:
"Thoughts on Plagiarism and the Verbatim copying of multiple Ideas, Notions, Programs and Texts by L. Ron Hubbard."
Nor does it say:
"Thoughts on Plagiarism and the proven copying by Paul Twichell of at least 69 other Author's written works"
etc etc etc
Kind of places the Compartmentalisation going on in the proper context, does it not? :-)
But there is more. The commentary does not fully address the meaning of that there Plagiarism and Verbatim Copying of long passages of texts in the context of Paul's actions and the subsequent nature of Eckankar and it's essential teachings and Dogma. (woof!)
Me utilising your prior text and you reusing my ideas and the word around "compartmentalisation" has nothing at al to do with Plagiarism as we know it, nor is it a real reflection of exactly what Paul Twitchell and his apologists the last 50 years have said about that behaviour.
In and of itself there is also nothing inherently wrong with Paul Twichell at times utilising "plagiarism" techniques or copying other teachings / authors Ideas and Concepts or their Philosophies. All of this is "open source" activity.
There is nothing wrong in one not necessarily always giving credit to one's personal sources of hearsay either.
Unfortunately the current commenter and Rob totoally fail at comprehending the fullness of the issue - they dumb it down and restrict the topic of conversation to simply "Thoughts on Plagiarism".
They mistakenly and repeatedly assume that the issue can be c0ontained in a simplistic notion and the word "Plagiarism" itself.
It simply proves how sadly unaware they are.
To declare it as "Scant" is a clear indication of the limited knowledge they have on this matter. Both technically about the facts of the matter, and conscious awareness wise. As you and many others TT, Etznab etc already know with great clarity.
The fear and defensiveness arises as a result of the Twitchell plagiarism and verbatim copying being able to be proven beyond doubt using outer evidence that goes beyond simply word for word comparisons. Everyone can see it with their own eyes - if they look.
The safety net of never seriously looking at the hard evidence is the protective Ego / Belief strategy. Some may call it the effect of Cognitive Dissonance (that does fit) and others may be more correct by using the phrase "The Dunning-Kruger Effect" because that clearly has a greater focus on personal Knowledge.
Not only about outer knowledge facts etc but True Knowledge about one's self, one's thinking processes, the effects of emotion, the Conditioning they have embraced as Reality and of course their own individual limitations.
Or as I said above "It's just the way it is."
It is not going to change anytime soon and change cannot be forced upon anyone. Most of the time one cannot even offer a bit of friendly help - so far gone are some people. :-)
Peace and Joy
Compartmentally Yours
(smile)
Henosis Sage
Mar 1, 2019, 11:29:01 PM3/1/19
to
Henosis Sage
Mar 1, 2019, 11:32:29 PM3/1/19
to
On Saturday, 2 March 2019 14:23:47 UTC+11, Etznab wrote:
> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 7:07:01 PM UTC-6, Azutmai wrote:
> > To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
> >
[...]
> On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 7:07:01 PM UTC-6, Azutmai wrote:
> > To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
> >
>
> I think you should tell the truth when referring to Paul's plagiarism.
But Asimuth is right on one thing Etznab ...
> I think you should tell the truth when referring to Paul's plagiarism.
"It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not listen . . ."
Etznab
Mar 13, 2019, 9:15:34 PM3/13/19
to
On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 7:07:01 PM UTC-6, Azutmai wrote:
> To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
>
> To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
>
> As has been stated before . . . when Paul found a passage in a book that already said exactly what he wanted to say . . . why re-word it? With the many books he read to even come up with such compilations . . . was he supposed to re-word certain passages simply to placate those who would point their “plagiarism” finger?
>
> Why?
>
> If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
>
> Paul knew that if an individual was going to let plagiarism stop the acceptance of said information . . . then that person is easily stopped from discovering deeper Truth. A person needs strength, courage, risk-taking, stamina, and passion to walk the far reaches of Truth. Obstacles will always be thrown in the way . . . no matter what level of initiation or consciousness one inhabits.
>
> Is the overall use of the information still useable and pertinent? Ask yourself that! Information is information no mater who said it and where it comes from. Discernment is key. YoU decide what you wish to believe . . . and test . . . to determine its usefulness.
>
> I would challenge most anyone . . . myself included . . . to gather as much information in just one of Paul’s books . . . gather as much information from scratch . . . and bring it all together into your own book. What a favor he did for us. Nowhere else is such a composite of information brought together . . . often from books and documents that are not available to the public . . . and put them out for the public to attain. If you think he did such a low job . . . then we are all waiting for your first publication. Try not to simply accuse . . . SHOW us you can do better . . . or even as good . . . and we better not find *one* sentence in your book that can be found elsewhere . . . whether you are aware of such publications or not.
>
> To those of you who hold and oppose so fiercely Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . . this reveals much more about where YoU are on the Path rather than where Paul was . . . and is . . . or certainly where the teachings of Eckankar lie. One might be wise to deeply consider this.
>
> As far as Rebezar is concerned . . . your approach and demands are exactly the perfect way to NOT meet this Master. No Eck Master . . . save for the current Living Eck Master . . . will meet an individual simply because that individual demands that it be so. This is NOT about meeting someone in the penthouse of a high-rise office building simply because you make an appointment to that end. You will meet Rebezar or any other true Eck Master when you earn the right to do so.
>
> Paul also dismissed the idea of plagiarism and of using names for various beings because he knew that if the individual allowed such things to determine whether information was accepted or not . . . then that person still had much work to do with his own perseverance, courage, strength, risk-taking, stamina, and a passion to dig beneath what is popularly known and accepted to find that deeper Truth that all hunger for. Information is information no matter whose name is attached to it.
>
> There are endless obstacles that lie in front of anyone that wishes to truly uncover any greater Truth in the understanding of LIFE. Pitfalls, traps, obstacles, and mis-directs will always be in the way. Even it is as easy to stop someone’s search as grasping onto the practice of plagiarism . . . then LIFE will be your greater Teacher . . . and by LIFE . . . I mean . . . many more lifetimes . . . just to start.
>
> It is ALWAYS easy to point an accusing finger. In the mental worlds . . . it is simple to find a reason to believe . . . or disbelieve. Your choice. Levels of faith need to be juggled . . . then opinions . . . then to beliefs . . . and then on to greater knowledge and finally to understanding. If you are looking for a reason to disbelieve . . . then you . . . and many others . . . have found a very small feature that will satisfy your reason to disbelieve. The teachings of Eckankar do not promote “believe what we say without question.” The teachings WANT you to go out and prove it for yourself. If you have found your reason to disbelieve . . . then set it aside and move on elsewhere. It’s that easy.
>
> But I will tell you this . . . the Masters ARE real. The planes / dimensions / inner worlds ARE real. The Sounds of the planes ARE real. Belief is not mandatory for their Truth to prevail. It is a constant development into greater understanding . . . and it takes for-EV-er to even get close.
>
> A very little known underlying element in all of this is that it is NOT we who accept the greater truths of LIFE . . . but it is LIFE who accepts the individual into discovering deeper and deeper facets of LIFE IT-self. The mental philosophies and religions . . . we mentally read and take them into our acceptance of life here in these worlds . . . but to go beyond this . . . Spirit accepts us . . . it is NOT that we accept Spirit . . . with all the preliminaries and prerequisites involved in this acceptance by Spirit into the awareness and understanding of Life beyond the psychic / mental worlds. One must work towards the end to even begin to actually walk thru the door of Greater Truth.
>
> By demanding . . . “Hey Spirit . . . if information is going to become available . . . then I want it presented THIS way . . . with plenty of footnotes . . . portraits of the author . . . quadruple-checked for authenticity . . . and don’t be using words that ANY-body else used . . . ever!” - - that is NOT the way for anyone to work their way beyond what the masses readily accept and live by.
>
> It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not listen . . . or is simply in the conversation for the battle. Adventure lies ahead on any Path. Pick your direction . . . and move on.
This is a discussion group.
>
> Why?
>
> If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
>
> Paul knew that if an individual was going to let plagiarism stop the acceptance of said information . . . then that person is easily stopped from discovering deeper Truth. A person needs strength, courage, risk-taking, stamina, and passion to walk the far reaches of Truth. Obstacles will always be thrown in the way . . . no matter what level of initiation or consciousness one inhabits.
>
> Is the overall use of the information still useable and pertinent? Ask yourself that! Information is information no mater who said it and where it comes from. Discernment is key. YoU decide what you wish to believe . . . and test . . . to determine its usefulness.
>
> I would challenge most anyone . . . myself included . . . to gather as much information in just one of Paul’s books . . . gather as much information from scratch . . . and bring it all together into your own book. What a favor he did for us. Nowhere else is such a composite of information brought together . . . often from books and documents that are not available to the public . . . and put them out for the public to attain. If you think he did such a low job . . . then we are all waiting for your first publication. Try not to simply accuse . . . SHOW us you can do better . . . or even as good . . . and we better not find *one* sentence in your book that can be found elsewhere . . . whether you are aware of such publications or not.
>
> To those of you who hold and oppose so fiercely Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . . this reveals much more about where YoU are on the Path rather than where Paul was . . . and is . . . or certainly where the teachings of Eckankar lie. One might be wise to deeply consider this.
>
> As far as Rebezar is concerned . . . your approach and demands are exactly the perfect way to NOT meet this Master. No Eck Master . . . save for the current Living Eck Master . . . will meet an individual simply because that individual demands that it be so. This is NOT about meeting someone in the penthouse of a high-rise office building simply because you make an appointment to that end. You will meet Rebezar or any other true Eck Master when you earn the right to do so.
>
> Paul also dismissed the idea of plagiarism and of using names for various beings because he knew that if the individual allowed such things to determine whether information was accepted or not . . . then that person still had much work to do with his own perseverance, courage, strength, risk-taking, stamina, and a passion to dig beneath what is popularly known and accepted to find that deeper Truth that all hunger for. Information is information no matter whose name is attached to it.
>
> There are endless obstacles that lie in front of anyone that wishes to truly uncover any greater Truth in the understanding of LIFE. Pitfalls, traps, obstacles, and mis-directs will always be in the way. Even it is as easy to stop someone’s search as grasping onto the practice of plagiarism . . . then LIFE will be your greater Teacher . . . and by LIFE . . . I mean . . . many more lifetimes . . . just to start.
>
> It is ALWAYS easy to point an accusing finger. In the mental worlds . . . it is simple to find a reason to believe . . . or disbelieve. Your choice. Levels of faith need to be juggled . . . then opinions . . . then to beliefs . . . and then on to greater knowledge and finally to understanding. If you are looking for a reason to disbelieve . . . then you . . . and many others . . . have found a very small feature that will satisfy your reason to disbelieve. The teachings of Eckankar do not promote “believe what we say without question.” The teachings WANT you to go out and prove it for yourself. If you have found your reason to disbelieve . . . then set it aside and move on elsewhere. It’s that easy.
>
> But I will tell you this . . . the Masters ARE real. The planes / dimensions / inner worlds ARE real. The Sounds of the planes ARE real. Belief is not mandatory for their Truth to prevail. It is a constant development into greater understanding . . . and it takes for-EV-er to even get close.
>
> A very little known underlying element in all of this is that it is NOT we who accept the greater truths of LIFE . . . but it is LIFE who accepts the individual into discovering deeper and deeper facets of LIFE IT-self. The mental philosophies and religions . . . we mentally read and take them into our acceptance of life here in these worlds . . . but to go beyond this . . . Spirit accepts us . . . it is NOT that we accept Spirit . . . with all the preliminaries and prerequisites involved in this acceptance by Spirit into the awareness and understanding of Life beyond the psychic / mental worlds. One must work towards the end to even begin to actually walk thru the door of Greater Truth.
>
> By demanding . . . “Hey Spirit . . . if information is going to become available . . . then I want it presented THIS way . . . with plenty of footnotes . . . portraits of the author . . . quadruple-checked for authenticity . . . and don’t be using words that ANY-body else used . . . ever!” - - that is NOT the way for anyone to work their way beyond what the masses readily accept and live by.
>
> It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not listen . . . or is simply in the conversation for the battle. Adventure lies ahead on any Path. Pick your direction . . . and move on.
You wrote: "[...] As has been stated before . . . when Paul found a passage in a book that already said exactly what he wanted to say . . . why re-word it? With the many books he read to even come up with such compilations . . . was he supposed to re-word certain passages simply to placate those who would point their “plagiarism” finger? [... .]"
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ri5BFW_L5fM/nGDBMsm2BgAJ
Are you forgetting that it was not all found in books and according to Paul he was dictated to by Rebazar Tarzs, told to write a book and what to write. So I want to discuss this, which is more than simply plagiarism.
Did you look at the many examples I illustrated? It looks to me like Paul tells the reader it was Rebazar Tarzs, and not some book that said it better than Paul could. No. It was evidently, according to Paul, Rebazar Tarzs that said it (a whole lot) better than Paul could. So this is not the same as Paul getting it from a book, or Paul as some master compiler; according to Harold Klemp.
I am looking to learn as much as I can about the true history of plagiarism and if a master such as Rebazar Tarzs was involved. My God. His words are in quotes and Paul (the author) indicates that Rebazar Tarzs accompanied him and spoke to him. Including in his physical body! See?
O.K. For those reading this discussion, How comes it that Rebazar Tarzs and his words are in so many places same as Paul Twitchell's copying and plagiarisms?
I watched a new member come to a.r.e. One who had no previous Google posting history under the name Azutmai and who's first communications were:
Thoughts on Plagiarism
To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . .
As has been stated before . . . when Paul found a passage in a book that already said exactly what he wanted to say . . . why re-word it? With the many books he read to even come up with such compilations . . . was he supposed to re-word certain passages simply to placate those who would point their “plagiarism” finger?
Why?
If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
[... .]
Why?
If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ri5BFW_L5fM/nGDBMsm2BgAJ
IMHO it reads like a lecture where Azutmai was stating what the plagiarism is all about, why it is what it is and how people should regard it. I saw no use of the words "in my opinion", "it looks to me like", "I think that", or "I believe that", etc., in those opening remarks.
So first off there was communicated the words "scant use of plagiarism" in the very first sentence. The next paragraph mentioned the idea that when Paul saw something he liked that he used it. And there was also some questions about Why reword it? Why should he? (So much to that effect. Read the quote for the exact context.)
I really like studying history. Past and present. Especially the past. So this next quote from the third paragraph is interesting to me because it mentions history past and present.
"[...] The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. [... .]"
I started out by writing that this is a discussion group. In this post I made certain to mention this for the sake of Azutmai. So when a person asks about something you wrote, giving a quote so there is no doubt what they are asking, it is is the spirit of discussion.
It looks to me like Azutmai has been ignoring people from the get go. People who asked about the very first post. I have asked now a number of times going on two weeks already.
I don't think Azutmai is a good example about how to enter a discussion group when coming off as if telling people what's the story with plagiarism and then ignoring people who ask for clarification. I and Sean both asked nicely in the beginning. I listened for quite some time before becoming critical after my question (the question that Sean asked originally) went ignored for days. And so what now? No explanation about "Paul’s scant use of plagiarism". No apology for ignoring the discussion about this?
Azutmai continues:
"Paul knew that if an individual was going to let plagiarism stop the acceptance of said information . . . then that person is easily stopped from discovering deeper Truth. A person needs strength, courage, risk-taking, stamina, and passion to walk the far reaches of Truth. Obstacles will always be thrown in the way . . . no matter what level of initiation or consciousness one inhabits."
I'll give one more quote:
"Is the overall use of the information still useable and pertinent? Ask yourself that! Information is information no mater who said it and where it comes from. Discernment is key. YoU decide what you wish to believe . . . and test . . . to determine its usefulness."
Etznab writes: ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS!!! Discernment is key you say? Let's discern. O.K.? Tell me what you think about this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-XACODjHfc
Etznab
Apr 6, 2019, 11:40:14 PM4/6/19
to
On Thursday, February 28, 2019 at 7:07:01 PM UTC-6, Azutmai wrote:
> To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
>
> As has been stated before . . . when Paul found a passage in a book that already said exactly what he wanted to say . . . why re-word it? With the many books he read to even come up with such compilations . . . was he supposed to re-word certain passages simply to placate those who would point their “plagiarism” finger?
>
> Why?
>
> If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
>
> Paul knew that if an individual was going to let plagiarism stop the acceptance of said information . . . then that person is easily stopped from discovering deeper Truth. A person needs strength, courage, risk-taking, stamina, and passion to walk the far reaches of Truth. Obstacles will always be thrown in the way . . . no matter what level of initiation or consciousness one inhabits.
>
> Is the overall use of the information still useable and pertinent? Ask yourself that! Information is information no mater who said it and where it comes from. Discernment is key. YoU decide what you wish to believe . . . and test . . . to determine its usefulness.
>
> I would challenge most anyone . . . myself included . . . to gather as much information in just one of Paul’s books . . . gather as much information from scratch . . . and bring it all together into your own book. What a favor he did for us. Nowhere else is such a composite of information brought together . . . often from books and documents that are not available to the public . . . and put them out for the public to attain. If you think he did such a low job . . . then we are all waiting for your first publication. Try not to simply accuse . . . SHOW us you can do better . . . or even as good . . . and we better not find *one* sentence in your book that can be found elsewhere . . . whether you are aware of such publications or not.
>
> To those of you who hold and oppose so fiercely Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . . this reveals much more about where YoU are on the Path rather than where Paul was . . . and is . . . or certainly where the teachings of Eckankar lie. One might be wise to deeply consider this.
>
> As far as Rebezar is concerned . . . your approach and demands are exactly the perfect way to NOT meet this Master. No Eck Master . . . save for the current Living Eck Master . . . will meet an individual simply because that individual demands that it be so. This is NOT about meeting someone in the penthouse of a high-rise office building simply because you make an appointment to that end. You will meet Rebezar or any other true Eck Master when you earn the right to do so.
>
> Paul also dismissed the idea of plagiarism and of using names for various beings because he knew that if the individual allowed such things to determine whether information was accepted or not . . . then that person still had much work to do with his own perseverance, courage, strength, risk-taking, stamina, and a passion to dig beneath what is popularly known and accepted to find that deeper Truth that all hunger for. Information is information no matter whose name is attached to it.
>
> There are endless obstacles that lie in front of anyone that wishes to truly uncover any greater Truth in the understanding of LIFE. Pitfalls, traps, obstacles, and mis-directs will always be in the way. Even it is as easy to stop someone’s search as grasping onto the practice of plagiarism . . . then LIFE will be your greater Teacher . . . and by LIFE . . . I mean . . . many more lifetimes . . . just to start.
>
> It is ALWAYS easy to point an accusing finger. In the mental worlds . . . it is simple to find a reason to believe . . . or disbelieve. Your choice. Levels of faith need to be juggled . . . then opinions . . . then to beliefs . . . and then on to greater knowledge and finally to understanding. If you are looking for a reason to disbelieve . . . then you . . . and many others . . . have found a very small feature that will satisfy your reason to disbelieve. The teachings of Eckankar do not promote “believe what we say without question.” The teachings WANT you to go out and prove it for yourself. If you have found your reason to disbelieve . . . then set it aside and move on elsewhere. It’s that easy.
>
> But I will tell you this . . . the Masters ARE real. The planes / dimensions / inner worlds ARE real. The Sounds of the planes ARE real. Belief is not mandatory for their Truth to prevail. It is a constant development into greater understanding . . . and it takes for-EV-er to even get close.
>
> A very little known underlying element in all of this is that it is NOT we who accept the greater truths of LIFE . . . but it is LIFE who accepts the individual into discovering deeper and deeper facets of LIFE IT-self. The mental philosophies and religions . . . we mentally read and take them into our acceptance of life here in these worlds . . . but to go beyond this . . . Spirit accepts us . . . it is NOT that we accept Spirit . . . with all the preliminaries and prerequisites involved in this acceptance by Spirit into the awareness and understanding of Life beyond the psychic / mental worlds. One must work towards the end to even begin to actually walk thru the door of Greater Truth.
>
> By demanding . . . “Hey Spirit . . . if information is going to become available . . . then I want it presented THIS way . . . with plenty of footnotes . . . portraits of the author . . . quadruple-checked for authenticity . . . and don’t be using words that ANY-body else used . . . ever!” - - that is NOT the way for anyone to work their way beyond what the masses readily accept and live by.
>
> It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not listen . . . or is simply in the conversation for the battle. Adventure lies ahead on any Path. Pick your direction . . . and move on.
Why use the word scant? Can you prove it was scant? People are still finding examples adding to the growing list.
> To those who strongly oppose Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . .
>
> As has been stated before . . . when Paul found a passage in a book that already said exactly what he wanted to say . . . why re-word it? With the many books he read to even come up with such compilations . . . was he supposed to re-word certain passages simply to placate those who would point their “plagiarism” finger?
>
> Why?
>
> If one is going to allow “plagiarism” to censor or determine what they read and/or accept . . . then that person will be stopped in their search . . . repeatedly. Plagiarism is a man-made law. It is a factor only to those who cannot see past it. The purpose of Paul’s works was to bring together and compile information into a series of works that would compare and reveal the stances of various philosophies and religions of the world . . . past and present. He brought together the information for the individual to use. If one wishes to not use the information . . . s/he certainly does not need to resort to the practice of plagiarism to dispute what is offered. Simply . . . dismiss the information. Use it . . . no matter where it comes from . . . if it assists one in the understanding of LIFE as the Whole that IT is.
>
> Paul knew that if an individual was going to let plagiarism stop the acceptance of said information . . . then that person is easily stopped from discovering deeper Truth. A person needs strength, courage, risk-taking, stamina, and passion to walk the far reaches of Truth. Obstacles will always be thrown in the way . . . no matter what level of initiation or consciousness one inhabits.
>
> Is the overall use of the information still useable and pertinent? Ask yourself that! Information is information no mater who said it and where it comes from. Discernment is key. YoU decide what you wish to believe . . . and test . . . to determine its usefulness.
>
> I would challenge most anyone . . . myself included . . . to gather as much information in just one of Paul’s books . . . gather as much information from scratch . . . and bring it all together into your own book. What a favor he did for us. Nowhere else is such a composite of information brought together . . . often from books and documents that are not available to the public . . . and put them out for the public to attain. If you think he did such a low job . . . then we are all waiting for your first publication. Try not to simply accuse . . . SHOW us you can do better . . . or even as good . . . and we better not find *one* sentence in your book that can be found elsewhere . . . whether you are aware of such publications or not.
>
> To those of you who hold and oppose so fiercely Paul’s scant use of plagiarism . . . this reveals much more about where YoU are on the Path rather than where Paul was . . . and is . . . or certainly where the teachings of Eckankar lie. One might be wise to deeply consider this.
>
> As far as Rebezar is concerned . . . your approach and demands are exactly the perfect way to NOT meet this Master. No Eck Master . . . save for the current Living Eck Master . . . will meet an individual simply because that individual demands that it be so. This is NOT about meeting someone in the penthouse of a high-rise office building simply because you make an appointment to that end. You will meet Rebezar or any other true Eck Master when you earn the right to do so.
>
> Paul also dismissed the idea of plagiarism and of using names for various beings because he knew that if the individual allowed such things to determine whether information was accepted or not . . . then that person still had much work to do with his own perseverance, courage, strength, risk-taking, stamina, and a passion to dig beneath what is popularly known and accepted to find that deeper Truth that all hunger for. Information is information no matter whose name is attached to it.
>
> There are endless obstacles that lie in front of anyone that wishes to truly uncover any greater Truth in the understanding of LIFE. Pitfalls, traps, obstacles, and mis-directs will always be in the way. Even it is as easy to stop someone’s search as grasping onto the practice of plagiarism . . . then LIFE will be your greater Teacher . . . and by LIFE . . . I mean . . . many more lifetimes . . . just to start.
>
> It is ALWAYS easy to point an accusing finger. In the mental worlds . . . it is simple to find a reason to believe . . . or disbelieve. Your choice. Levels of faith need to be juggled . . . then opinions . . . then to beliefs . . . and then on to greater knowledge and finally to understanding. If you are looking for a reason to disbelieve . . . then you . . . and many others . . . have found a very small feature that will satisfy your reason to disbelieve. The teachings of Eckankar do not promote “believe what we say without question.” The teachings WANT you to go out and prove it for yourself. If you have found your reason to disbelieve . . . then set it aside and move on elsewhere. It’s that easy.
>
> But I will tell you this . . . the Masters ARE real. The planes / dimensions / inner worlds ARE real. The Sounds of the planes ARE real. Belief is not mandatory for their Truth to prevail. It is a constant development into greater understanding . . . and it takes for-EV-er to even get close.
>
> A very little known underlying element in all of this is that it is NOT we who accept the greater truths of LIFE . . . but it is LIFE who accepts the individual into discovering deeper and deeper facets of LIFE IT-self. The mental philosophies and religions . . . we mentally read and take them into our acceptance of life here in these worlds . . . but to go beyond this . . . Spirit accepts us . . . it is NOT that we accept Spirit . . . with all the preliminaries and prerequisites involved in this acceptance by Spirit into the awareness and understanding of Life beyond the psychic / mental worlds. One must work towards the end to even begin to actually walk thru the door of Greater Truth.
>
> By demanding . . . “Hey Spirit . . . if information is going to become available . . . then I want it presented THIS way . . . with plenty of footnotes . . . portraits of the author . . . quadruple-checked for authenticity . . . and don’t be using words that ANY-body else used . . . ever!” - - that is NOT the way for anyone to work their way beyond what the masses readily accept and live by.
>
> It is impossible to prove anything to anyone who will not listen . . . or is simply in the conversation for the battle. Adventure lies ahead on any Path. Pick your direction . . . and move on.
I think you are off with the fairies imagining scant plagiarism. Get serious.
Making up pseudo characters is not plagiarism, it's knowing deception when the pseudo characters are used to replace real people.
Etznab
Apr 7, 2019, 12:01:44 AM4/7/19
to
The Flute of God: A Case Study of Re-Editing
Twitchell's enormous editing of names reached a pinnacle when he decided to publish in book form The Flute of God. The work was originally printed in installments in Orion Magazine, from 1965 to 1967. The first six chapters of the text profusely mention the names of Kirpal Singh, Sawan Singh, and Jesus Christ. When Twitchell had the book republished, however, he redacted every single mention of Kirpal Singh, Sawan Singh, and Swami Premananda. In some cases, he even edited out the name Jesus and replaced it with "Gopal Das" or other Eckankar Masters. And, although he quotes from the Christian Bible, he even changes the name of his source (to that of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad) while retaining the same biblical quote. Below is a comparison study of the two versions. Remember that the Orion version is the earliest, and that Twitchell's editing is primarily "name replacements."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 3: "I remember very well when Swami Premananda, of India, who has a Yoga church in Washington, D. C., said, 'When someone asked Bertrand Russell what his philosophy of Life was, he wrote several volumes of books on the subject."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 3: "I remember very well when Sudar Singh, the great Eck Master said, 'When someone asked Bertrand Russell what his philosophy of Life was, he wrote several volumes of books on the subject."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 15: "I have studied under many teacher [sic], and may yet have to study under more. Like Meher Baba, the Indian saint, who was said to have nineteen teachers to help him gain his place in the universe, I have so far had seven, some outstanding ones, including Sri Kirpal Singh, of Delhi, India."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 16: "I have studied under many ECK Masters only they have led me to the highest truth. Like Fubbi Quantz, the ECK saint, who was said to have nineteen teachers to help him gain his place in the universe, I have also had several, each outstanding, one being Sudar Singh of India."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 16: "Each has had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal; each are equally great in their work for mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Kirpal Singh, who has shown me a lot of the other work during my first year or so under him. Since we have parted he keeps an impartial view toward me and my research. Therefore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is sympathetic and interested in my work."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 17: "Each has had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal; each is equally great in his work for mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Sudar Singh, who showed me a lot of the other work, during my first year or so under him. Since we have parted he has retained an impartial view toward me and my research. If I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is sympathetic and interested in my work and led me to Rebazar Tarzs."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter I - "In The Beginning" (March-April, 1966):
Par. 32: "Life fascinates me. Certain details of life to be worked out are strange. Lying on the bed late at night I watch the pattern of shadows weaving about the room. In the presence of familiar night visitors like Kirpal Singh, or Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan Lama, who come often in their Nuri-Sarup, or others, some strangers, some friends, I wonder about life."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter I - "In The Beginning":
Par. 34: "Life fascinates me. Certain details of life that have to be worked out are strange. Lying on the bed late at night I watch the pattern of shadows weaving about the room. In the presence of familiar night visitors like Sudar Singh, or Rebazar Tarzs, the ECK Masters who come often in their Nuri-Sarup bodies, or others, some strangers, some friends, I wonder about life."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g., Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine Grace.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master, said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.' Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance, Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the conditions of ability - -but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine Grace.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
Par. 48: "This is what Kirpal Singh speaks of in his discourses. `We must become the conscious co-worker of God.' Meaning, of course, that once man is freed of his imbalances he inherits the throne and does his work for the whole."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of the Princes":
Par. 45: "This is what Sudar Singh spoke of in his dialogues. `We must become the conscious co-workers of God.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes" (Sept.-Oct. 1966):
Par. 37: "All masters of earlier days, to name a few: Buddha, Gura Nanak (sic), Christ, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Lao Tse, George Fox, Sawan Singh, Confucius, Krishna and Shankhacharya exhorted us to know ourselves. Kabir says the same thing `Learn to die a hundred times daily, not once.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes":
Par. 37: "All ECK Masters of earlier days exhorted us to know ourselves. . .Gopal Das says the same thing, `Learn to die a hundred times daily, not once.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes" (Sept.-Oct. 1966):
Par. 38: "Christ said, 'Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.' Guru Nanak said, 'Be pure that truth may be realized.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Chapter III - "Purification of the Princes":
Par. 38: "Jesus said, 'Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.' Rebazar Tarzs said, 'Be pure so that truth may be known.'"
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
"When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning. To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
"When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said, `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives, for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 44:
"One of my experiences while serving under the Yoga Satsang line of masters, was that I found one of the masters in the guise of a beggar. I had been in difficulty for sometime, and very unhappy over the fact that nothing could be found to solve my problem."
The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 45:
"One of my experiences, while serving under Rebazar Tarzs, was that I found one of the ECK Masters in the guise of a beggar. I had been in difficulty for some time, and was very unhappy over the fact that nothing could be found to solve my problem."
Or like this?
[...]
"In the literature of the saints, God is expressed by many words, such as Soami, Ekankar, Nirankar, Radha Soami, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Hari Rai, Akshar, Parameshwar, Akshar Purush, etc. All of these words have been coined in an effort to convey to human intelligence some idea of what the saints think of God, or Lord God, the highest power. Ekankar means the 'one oneness', the body of oneness. Nirankar means 'without body or form'. Soami or Swami means the 'all-pervading lord'. [... .]
[Based on: The Path of the Masters, by Julian Johnson, Copyright 1939, Sixteenth Edition 1997, Chap. Five: God and the Grand Hierarchy of the Universe, pp. 242-245. - The Path of the Masters was reportedly written in the 1930s.]
http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters#page/n1/mode/2up
*** COMPARE *** COMPARE *** COMPARE *** COMPARE *** COMPARE *** COMPARE ***
[...]
"In the literature of the sacred, this divine formless spirit is expressed by many names, such as, ECKANKAR, Nirankar, Akal, Nirala, Anami, Agam, Alakh, Sat Purush, Prabhu, Prabhswami, Akashar, Paramakshar, Purusha.
"All of these words have been coined in an effort to convey to human intelligence some idea of what the Saints think of the SUGMAD, or Lord God, the highest power.
"ECKANKAR means the one oneness, the body of oneness. All, or Totality - this is the secret name of God or the SUGMAD which will be creeping into these talks between us as I go deeper into this philosophy. [... .]
[Based on: The Far Country, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1970, Eighth Printing - 1983, Chapter. One: The Far Country. - The Far Country was reportedly written about 1963-1964.]
http://www.archive.org/stream/farcountry017342mbp/farcountry017342mbp_djvu.txt
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/q-ZMPeLApug/sZWDK5twAAAJ
Doug Marman worked closely with two Eck Masters and had access to tapes and writings going back many years.
When Doug Marman was asked:
"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"
How did Doug answer?
He answered: "Yes."
Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004
http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1R6Co2B4-OM/l_jsPQjDlygJ
IMHO, if Doug Marman knows this then Harold Klemp surely knew it and knows it too.
Etznab
Apr 7, 2019, 12:13:24 AM4/7/19
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Etznab
Apr 9, 2019, 8:43:04 PM4/9/19
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On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 5:43:20 PM UTC-6, fife wrote:
> Sheesh! You really are all about judgement. And compartmentalization. Ron is too.
Just wait. You haven't seen nothing yet.
> Sheesh! You really are all about judgement. And compartmentalization. Ron is too.
fife
Apr 9, 2019, 10:07:00 PM4/9/19
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Etznab
You're probably right. Like Henosis wrote recently. "Don't feed the trolls."
You're probably right. Like Henosis wrote recently. "Don't feed the trolls."
Etznab
Apr 11, 2019, 4:38:14 PM4/11/19
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Of all the threads here during the past months, I feel this one is the most educational. The author appeared to be a new poster. Everybody responded to him, including Rob, who's first words (to the lead post) were:
"Very well stated it must be said."
Fact is, Azutmai came into the group lecturing. Rob agreed and also started lecturing.
Someplace, in one thread, I posted some lying rants from Kinpa and asked what Azutmai and Rob, and what others thought.
So there seems to be so many people who so easily overlook plagiarism and lies and at the same time talk down to others about Eckankar according to them.
"Very well stated it must be said."
Someplace, in one thread, I posted some lying rants from Kinpa and asked what Azutmai and Rob, and what others thought.
So there seems to be so many people who so easily overlook plagiarism and lies and at the same time talk down to others about Eckankar according to them.
Henosis Sage
Apr 11, 2019, 9:17:47 PM4/11/19
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There will be occasions, on other subject matters, they will become equally self-righteous and abusive of others in Eckankar too.
But the longer eckankar keeps going the higher the % of such people will become the obnoxious toxic majority
Etznab
Apr 11, 2019, 10:02:42 PM4/11/19
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Etznab
Aug 4, 2019, 10:41:36 PM8/4/19
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Etznab
Sep 8, 2019, 5:21:50 PM9/8/19
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On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 12:13:53 PM UTC-6, fife wrote:
>
> Let's dance!
> Put on your red shoes and dance the blues.
I was no great fan of Azutmai, I admit, but I thought he made a good number of points when responding to Fife after this comment about him. And I saw it was not Azutmai so much doing a dance, but Fife more so.
> On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 12:50:45 PM UTC-5, Azutmai wrote:
> > I absolutely love to read the replies to posts such as this. The conclusions drawn over misinterpretations . . . the “define this and define that” . . . “what about this and what about that” . . . etc. etc. etc. . . . all mental dance steps and cartwheels that will absolutely NEVER end. The mind will endlessly chew over the analysis, definition, labeling, and categorization of anything it contends with. It HAS to. That’s its purpose.
> >
> > Many times . . . it is this endless wrestling match that finally brings enough personal fatigue that the individual will take previously too-risky steps to search and experiment beyond their previous limits. Old habits give up VERY reluctantly and often very slowly.
> >
> > It is impossible for anyone to “prove” anything to a person that simply wishes to be combative and has found great safety in doing so. No one will gain on their own path until they take steps to do so. To try and persuade someone with “mental proof” is almost like getting behind that person and trying to push them forward . . . with both their heels digging trenches into their own path from sheer determination NOT to learn, to grow, to take the risk, to look beyond their limits.
> >
> > We ALL do this. This is no criticism of anyone. And we will continue doing this until we are absolutely exhausted . . . one step . . . one topic . . . one feature . . . one habit at a time.
> >
> > And we wonder why the path takes so long.
>
> Azutmai. I love to read your posts as well. But you're no sage. You're just pretending to be one. That's your "dance". :-)
> > I absolutely love to read the replies to posts such as this. The conclusions drawn over misinterpretations . . . the “define this and define that” . . . “what about this and what about that” . . . etc. etc. etc. . . . all mental dance steps and cartwheels that will absolutely NEVER end. The mind will endlessly chew over the analysis, definition, labeling, and categorization of anything it contends with. It HAS to. That’s its purpose.
> >
> > Many times . . . it is this endless wrestling match that finally brings enough personal fatigue that the individual will take previously too-risky steps to search and experiment beyond their previous limits. Old habits give up VERY reluctantly and often very slowly.
> >
> > It is impossible for anyone to “prove” anything to a person that simply wishes to be combative and has found great safety in doing so. No one will gain on their own path until they take steps to do so. To try and persuade someone with “mental proof” is almost like getting behind that person and trying to push them forward . . . with both their heels digging trenches into their own path from sheer determination NOT to learn, to grow, to take the risk, to look beyond their limits.
> >
> > We ALL do this. This is no criticism of anyone. And we will continue doing this until we are absolutely exhausted . . . one step . . . one topic . . . one feature . . . one habit at a time.
> >
> > And we wonder why the path takes so long.
>
>
> Let's dance!
> Put on your red shoes and dance the blues.
I was no great fan of Azutmai, I admit, but I thought he made a good number of points when responding to Fife after this comment about him. And I saw it was not Azutmai so much doing a dance, but Fife more so.
Etznab
Sep 8, 2019, 5:26:40 PM9/8/19
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On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 1:03:28 PM UTC-6, fife wrote:
> Whoops! Who is judging who? I'm just trying to have some fun. Be light hearted. "And we wonder why the path takes so long?" We HOPE it takes long. 104 years. 105 years. Because it's our life we're talking about. In which (I should think) we hope to have some fun while we do what we do - learn, find some meaning, have some fun. It's not an "end game". Yeah?
>
> No. I don't do judgement or end games any more. Questions? Inquiries? Open-mindedness? Yes. No doors closing here.
Just trying to have some fun. Don't do judgement or end games any more.
Sounds to me like River Dance there is so much "dancing" going on there. Good thing Fife was not dancing on Atzumai. There would be nothing left but a pile of mush!
> Whoops! Who is judging who? I'm just trying to have some fun. Be light hearted. "And we wonder why the path takes so long?" We HOPE it takes long. 104 years. 105 years. Because it's our life we're talking about. In which (I should think) we hope to have some fun while we do what we do - learn, find some meaning, have some fun. It's not an "end game". Yeah?
>
> No. I don't do judgement or end games any more. Questions? Inquiries? Open-mindedness? Yes. No doors closing here.
Just trying to have some fun. Don't do judgement or end games any more.
Sounds to me like River Dance there is so much "dancing" going on there. Good thing Fife was not dancing on Atzumai. There would be nothing left but a pile of mush!
Etznab
Sep 8, 2019, 5:35:58 PM9/8/19
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"Show me where in my post to you . . . I made such claims . . . using such definitive words.
"But we’re back to my original question . . . WHY would you make the claims you did? You are in a religions section . . . in the Eckankar section of same . . . and someone comes in and makes two posts and you just have to clearly state . . . “You are NOT a ____”. It really makes little difference what word you used to end that statement. WHY . . . would you do that?
This post, above the others, is what I'm talking about. Azutmai spelled it out to Fife and repeatedly asked (in so many words) Why would you do that?
And months later now the question comes up again and again. Why would he do that? Not simply with judgements about me, or "we"s and "us"s to everybody.
In other words, people are asking the same questions that Azutmai asked way back when.
Etznab
Sep 8, 2019, 5:41:40 PM9/8/19
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On Friday, March 1, 2019 at 6:45:21 PM UTC-6, fife wrote:
> Henosis. Fine by me. Use away. In case you hadn't noticed I picked up on your "compartmentalization" from recent posts. That works well too.
I didn't catch it the first time around, and this is partly why I keep returning to this thread. In hindsight it looks to me like Fife was way too judgemental and not grounded in reality.
> Henosis. Fine by me. Use away. In case you hadn't noticed I picked up on your "compartmentalization" from recent posts. That works well too.
Besides that, it's a very interesting thread IMO. Who were these people really? Azutmai and Fife. Was Azutmai really Kinpa? So many apparent unknowns here. Why would Fife be so dismissive of Azutmai even after his responses? Makes no sense.
fife
Sep 8, 2019, 5:42:29 PM9/8/19
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Post the last exchanges Atzumai and I had when he was leaving the board.
Etznab
Sep 8, 2019, 5:46:29 PM9/8/19
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A really peculiar thread this is, IMHO.
Etznab
Sep 8, 2019, 5:47:07 PM9/8/19
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On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 4:42:29 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> Post the last exchanges Atzumai and I had when he was leaving the board.
Wasn't referring to them at all.
> Post the last exchanges Atzumai and I had when he was leaving the board.
Etznab
Sep 8, 2019, 5:49:14 PM9/8/19
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fife
Sep 8, 2019, 5:58:42 PM9/8/19
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No you weren't. You weren't posting the accomodation and understanding we came to about all that.
Etznab
Sep 8, 2019, 6:21:55 PM9/8/19
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On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 4:58:42 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> No you weren't. You weren't posting the accomodation and understanding we came to about all that.
I was referring to you being overly judgemental. Read my posts again.
> No you weren't. You weren't posting the accomodation and understanding we came to about all that.
fife
Sep 8, 2019, 6:24:49 PM9/8/19
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And read mine. I know perfectly well what you posted.
Henosis Sage
Sep 9, 2019, 1:52:03 AM9/9/19
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On Monday, 9 September 2019 07:41:40 UTC+10, Etznab wrote:
> Was Azutmai really Kinpa?
I think it was. he was just more balanced sensible this time round. stuck to the topic.
while throwing a few barbs that discussions about "plagiarism" still go on here,
and pretending he is he.
storm in a tea cup imho.
> Was Azutmai really Kinpa?
I think it was. he was just more balanced sensible this time round. stuck to the topic.
while throwing a few barbs that discussions about "plagiarism" still go on here,
and pretending he is he.
storm in a tea cup imho.
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