Yes or No Questions

[Etznab]

Looking over various posts over the years I noticed how many people didn't want to talk about the topic of Eckankar masters contributing plagiarized words. And even today the topic is evidently troublesome to the extent that Kinpa likes to repeat "plagiarism only proves plagiarism", etc.

Here is something for Kinpa to consider.

When Doug Marman was asked:

"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"

How did Doug answer?

"Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes."

When Doug Marman was asked:

"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"

How did Doug answer?

He answered: "Yes."

Based on: - A Few Responses - Doug Marman - February 8th, 2004

http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

What this suggests to me is that Paul Twitchell at times used Eck Masters names as "literary devices" to propagate the writings of various New Age authors, and does not prove that said Eck Masters were real living animate beings apart from the imaginations of Paul's reading audience.

That Rebazar Tarzs echoed so many plagiarized texts, and apologists argue that this was the action of Paul Twitchell and not Rebazar Tarzs then, imho, this is not proof that Rebazar Tarzs exists.

If in the countless examples of copied, paraphrased and plagiarized texts the alleged Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs played no part, or didn't have a role, then it suggests to me those examples are no proof for the existence of Rebazar Tarzs.

Someone (by the name of Kinpa) likes to twist things around and basically state that plagiarism amounts to only plagiarism and does not disprove the existence of Eck Masters. My position is that plagiarism doesn't prove that they exist either!

[Henosis Sage]

---

or as Doug (the self-declared god worlds exponent) says:

"A journal of experiences alone doesn't seem to have much meaning of itself
to anyone else except the experiencer, from what I can see."

"I think that it is very common for people to read books about the higher worlds
and believe that they have gained the higher worlds when in truth they have
only experienced the lower worlds. This is very common. "

"I often thought that I could understand what was being
described about the higher worlds until I actually began experiencing at that
level. Then I realized that all of my previous ideas were wrong. I was mixing
it up with my understanding from the lower worlds."

"Therefore, it is very common for people to imagine they are experiencing the
higher worlds because what they are experiencing sounds like what they read
about the higher worlds, but in many cases they are simply experiencing the
lower worlds."

"They are simply a journal of his experiences. First we would have to believe
that they are all real and should be taken as truth. Why should we?"

"I think you are missing something else here. It would be one thing if Graham
said that he saw the Sugmad and this is what he came back with, and then told
us what he got as if it was a verbal communication. That would be okay. But
then why would he feel as if he had no choice but to write it down? These are
his words, not Sugmad's words.

If he saw that these were his words, then why does he say he has no choice but
to write them down?"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BrMdjOdqv8o/Hm579QzgUCgJ

And if it was Paul Twitchell's recounting of his "journal experiences" or of those things he said and that would normally be construed as experiences to journal about .... what does Doug say about this:

eg SUGMAD SPEAKS in DWTM .. a record of expereinces with Rebazar Tarzs suposedly taking PT via Apollonius of Tyana to the SUGMAD

"The Voice said: .... I give thee grace to take up thy work. Take up
thy pen and write and I will tell thee what to write. Ye must give to
the world My love, through thy talent."

and

"I will speak through thee to the Earth world, through thy pen, and
through thy voice, thy very countenance and actions. Ye are myself, the
Divine Power and I am ye."

pg 199 DWTM , stuff like that?

That's SUGMAD telling Twitchell to put what it says into his "ECKANKAR
writings"!!! Into his Eckankar talks, and tapes, and discourses and books
and Illuminated Letters

If one was to take it literally, it means what was written was really
important, yeah? That Twitchell spoke and wrote with the highest
authority possible. And if one was to believe Twitchell this occurred way
back in 1956/57 .... when he was writing to Kirpal Singh as his master, and
later being the official Press Officer for Scientology USA in Washington DC.
when he was also working as a newsletter editor/writer, trainer, counselor, auditor, out of The Hubbard Academy -- a few miles down the road from
Premananda's Church of Absolute Monism / Ashram in Maryland.... circa 1957-1959

How could he have possibly said "no" to SUGMAD? ... same as Graham felt he had
"no choice but to write it all down" ... and Marman complains about that?

Then Marman goes on to talk about returning sacred stones ... why couldn't Paul
Twitchell just have said so instead in the beginning himself, instead of
waiting for a Marman to come along and unravel the great mystery in the
"True Meanings" and "Methods" of Twitchell's writings???

Twitchell said that SUGMAD spoke to him and said hey, you have to write and
use your talents. Twitchell is SPECIFICALLY STATING THIS IN PRINT at a time
that ECKANKAR exists and publishes this book DWTM in 1970.

It states DWTM "..was the first real study of the works of ECKANKAR" [end quote]

IT IS WHAT IT IS ... what it claims to be, is what it is ...


However, Doug Marman claims: "we all know" SUGMAD doesn't speak, so Graham's
journal must be wrong.

Is Twitchell wrong too then? Because Twitchell is the one who said wrote it,
first as a manuscript in 1957ish, and later as a book in 1970, and not Doug.

Paul Twitchell wrote The Flute of God he says in 1959, and the Tiger's Fang was
about a culmination of god realisation in 1957 and put into manuscript form by
1959.

The Tiger's Fang, The Flute of God and DWTM all focus on being "taught" and
"shown" by Rebazar Tarzs, the great torch bearer of Eckankar, introducing him
on the "inner" to all and sundry in the hierarchy of ECKANKAR all the way to
the SUGMAD.

WE also find that The Tiger's Fang, The Flute of God and DWTM are full to the
brim of copied texts from others, plagiarised and edited & blended; "fitted
out for ECKANKAR" iow. AS is the SKSs, Spiritual Notebook, Stranger by the
River (chats with Rebazar), ECK Vidya books, and then The Far Country in 1971.

These books are not "rebazar speaking or teaching" but copied texts from
others. This is self-evident to most who actually look at the examples and
the longterm pattern, style and writing methodology used by Twitchell.

Is it then more likely or not that the DWTM contents is merely "copied
writings" Twitchell self-selected at some point (eg 1956 study / time period)
his creative imaginary rhetoric "of hamming it all up" and that none of this
stuff about meetings with lords of the worlds or SUGMAD were "real personal
experiences" he had had "on the inner" / "lucid dreams" etc ?

IOW simply another "inspiring" and yet still FICTIONAL stories using several
"literary devices" to gain the readers attention seems much more likely and
the most logical conclusion to come to given the significant overwhelming
amount of confirming evidence.

I agree that in the countless examples of copied, paraphrased and plagiarized

texts the alleged Eck Master Rebazar Tarzs played no part, or didn't have a
role, then it suggests to me those examples are no proof for the existence of
Rebazar Tarzs.

In fact it would tend to indicate the complete opposite. But each to their own.

When I'm asked:

"3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?"

I say: "Absolutely yes!"

"4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters
names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them?"

I also say: "Yes!"

I also add that, until IMSIAF came out in mid-1968, there was no such
a 'title' as an "Eck Master"!!

Until late-1968 there was such a title as "the living Eck Master".

Until January 1969 there was no such a title as "The MAHANTA".

In January 1969 ECKANKAR was wound up as a Corporation owned by Paul &
Gail Twitchell, and it became a Non-Profit Religious Organisation instead.

The Illuminated Way Press however continued as it was owned by Gail & Paul
Twitchell. The IP / Copyrights for all the ECKANKAR "works" also remained
the personal Property of Paul Twitchell. He didn't give it nor Will it to
Eckankar.

---

It must be noted as you reminded us:

The very first paragraph in Paul Twitchell's 1970 book Dialogues With The Master (2nd paragraph of Chapter One) that Rebazar Tarzs has something to say. I quote: "I want you to take down the following words as part of a discourse to give the world. You will act as a channel for this message. Are you ready?"

Paul Twitchell responds by saying "Yes. But please go slow."


ome other examples of what others believed.

"... My point is that the problem goes away once we realize that everything
Paul wrote were his words. He was writing it. These were not the words of Rebazar or Kirpal. They were his words.

"So, I'm not sure I follow how this has anything to do with Paul witnessing
the physical body of Rebazar and speaking with him."

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.religion.eckankar/MbF_aTpc3vk/_uJpRgNVD2gJ

and Case in point: "... so he did it by portraying his books as dialogues with
his Master. But these are inner experiences he is describing here that are much
subtler than they might seem."

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.religion.eckankar/MbF_aTpc3vk/_uJpRgNVD2gJ

meanwhile on 07/03/15

Kinpa: "... the ONLY person responsible for plagiarisms being attributed to
ECK Masters is Paul Twitchell....end of story! ... ."

Etznab: "This is conformation then that, according to you, Rebazar Tarzs had
no role in the plagiarisms?"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/zZdePy6tbJI/rKICkSqZrmIJ

---

To whit I say: "Yes. But please go slow."

<g>

[Kinpa]

Showing your usual lack of intelligence once again? LOL....you seriously LOVE using the words of others completely out of context don't you? What's wrong, not able to think of any of your own????

[Kinpa]

I twisted not one thing around, it is YOU that continually does that and then decides that your assumptions equal proven "facts",however, I state differently...without a single shred of direct evidence, your circumstantial evidence cannot bring a conviction, you will always need more than that to prove your point...deal with it, unless you're scared to take that one on of course....

[Kinpa]

On Sunday, July 12, 2015 at 12:34:22 AM UTC, Etznab wrote:

I twisted nothing around. Simple facts are simple facts. You proved plagiarism and nothing else. You ASSUME it has other meanings but it cannot possibly.

[Etznab]

"[...] Someone (by the name of Kinpa) likes to twist things around and basically state that plagiarism amounts to only plagiarism and does not disprove the existence of Eck Masters. My position is that plagiarism doesn't prove that they exist either."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/1R6Co2B4-OM/l_jsPQjDlygJ

[Kinpa]

You ought to smarten up and stop saying my name.

[Henosis Sage]

---

For the broken record:

Kinpa
Sant Shabda
Shabda Preceptor
KinpaConquers
Jon Thorpe
Matt
Matt Sharpe
Matthew Sharpe
Matthew M. Sharpe
Matthew Michael Sharpe
FuzzHammer
Fuzzhammer
Kinpa12
Banidhun
M...S...C..
M...S...C..e
tsharpe96
-
Kinpa
Sant Shabda
Shabda Preceptor
KinpaConquers
Jon Thorpe
Matt
Matt Sharpe
Matthew Sharpe
Matthew M. Sharpe
Matthew Michael Sharpe
FuzzHammer
Fuzzhammer
Kinpa12
Banidhun
M...S...C..
M...S...C..e
tsharpe96
-
Kinpa
Sant Shabda
Shabda Preceptor
KinpaConquers
Jon Thorpe
Matt
Matt Sharpe
Matthew Sharpe
Matthew M. Sharpe
Matthew Michael Sharpe
FuzzHammer
Fuzzhammer
Kinpa12
Banidhun
M...S...C..
M...S...C..e
tsharpe96
-
Kinpa
Sant Shabda
Shabda Preceptor
KinpaConquers
Jon Thorpe
Matt
Matt Sharpe
Matthew Sharpe
Matthew M. Sharpe
Matthew Michael Sharpe
FuzzHammer
Fuzzhammer
Kinpa12
Banidhun
M...S...C..
M...S...C..e
tsharpe96
-
Kinpa
Sant Shabda
Shabda Preceptor
KinpaConquers
Jon Thorpe
Matt
Matt Sharpe
Matthew Sharpe
Matthew M. Sharpe
Matthew Michael Sharpe
FuzzHammer
Fuzzhammer
Kinpa12
Banidhun
M...S...C..
M...S...C..e
tsharpe96
-
Kinpa
Sant Shabda
Shabda Preceptor
KinpaConquers
Jon Thorpe
Matt
Matt Sharpe
Matthew Sharpe
Matthew M. Sharpe
Matthew Michael Sharpe
FuzzHammer
Fuzzhammer
Kinpa12
Banidhun
M...S...C..
M...S...C..e
tsharpe96
-
Not married
One child
Divorced twice
Lives in Lexington MI
No Property
No Businesses
No Hard Rock Band
Compulsive Liar
Obsessive Copyright Infringer of Epic Proportions
Dishonourable
Immoral
Unethical
Psychic Criminal
Disturbed Dangerous Cyber-Stalker Who is Best Avoided At All Cost
Who leaves a trail of destruction behind wherever he goes and for whoever he knows

Totally Untrustworthy IMHO~!

Based solely upon the known evidence, on anecdotal reports by people who
knew him, and the historical public record.

.

[Kinpa]

Poor sean, he is SO disturbed by finding nothing in ANY historical record that can be used to serve his purpose, so he creates fictions about me! HILARIOUS! It angers him just as much that he can find only ONE person that listens to his spiel and agrees with him, as opposed to the 1582 that are willing to talk to me about a vast number of things. It angers him NO less that Eckankar is open and freely accepted at my sites and he has been utterly unable to cause that to change. Hardly a surprising result based on his own past antics and behaviors. Oh well, luckily for the rest of the world, he is the ONLY person that has to awaken each day and deal with the sorry and wasted life that he calls home!

Despite the hellish condition he has willingly created for himself, I think it best to rise above his station in life and wish him all Divine blessings of Light and Love, and Perfect Health, in the Name of the SUGMAD, the ECK, and the Mahanta! There is absolutely NO reason that anyone should allow him to drag them down to his own level!

[Kinpa]

It is TREMENDOUSLY funny the way that sean has stated that both he and etznab are detached and are both not speaking to me, however, the number of times that they then say my name in posts after that declaration shows VERY clearly that he was lying! They BOTH are extremely attached to me, and therefore find it of extreme personal importance to mention me as often as possible! I had NO idea that I was THAT important! Thanks guys for making that so clear to the world!

[Kinpa]

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 11:45:19 PM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:

I notice that you use only the names above to search for me...has it never occurred to you that I might use a different screen name??? Do you even actually know if the name I use everywhere is my actual name? Anyone else reading, note the list of names above...seanicus arundel is the only cyber-stalker around here, and he posts proof of this FACT on a daily basis, while I have never proven any such claims about myself to be true!

Read it and weep sean, you have already sunk your own ship long ago, and the stating and restating of your delusions proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are not well mentally speaking. No one need take my word for it, they can go read YOUR words and see you prove it about yourself! Not a particularly smart way to do things in my humble opinion....oh well...

[Kinpa]

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 11:45:19 PM UTC, Henosis Sage wrote:

> -------------------------------------
Love the creepy way you say these names over and over again.....obsessed much?

> Not married
> One child
> Divorced twice
> Lives in Lexington MI

--------------------------------------------------------------
This proves you did no actual research at all! These things are not actual facts, just your own surmising what MIGHT be the truth, but posting them publicly this way proves YOU the compulsive liar! Not to mention the obsessed cyber-stalker!

> No Property
> No Businesses
> No Hard Rock Band
> Compulsive Liar

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Can you prove that even one of these is true? No? That makes these things all lies!

> Obsessive Copyright Infringer of Epic Proportions
> Dishonourable
> Immoral
> Unethical
> Psychic Criminal
> Disturbed Dangerous Cyber-Stalker Who is Best Avoided At All Cost
> Who leaves a trail of destruction behind wherever he goes and for whoever he knows

----------------------------------------------------------------
Where is the evidence for any of these things???? Have any?

>
> Totally Untrustworthy IMHO~!
>
> Based solely upon the known evidence, on anecdotal reports by people who
> knew him, and the historical public record.
>
> .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've yet to see even one report made by anyone that knows me. That proves this your opinion and non-factual! Liar liar, pants on fire......you are one sad excuse for a human being, but just the same I wish that you receive Divine blessings of Love and Light, and Perfect Health, in the Name of the SUGMAD, the ECK, and the Mahanta~! Try to have a better day will you? And try not to stalk so much!

[Henosis Sage]

-------


3796487

For the broken record:

Kinpa
Sant Shabda
Shabda Preceptor
KinpaConquers
Jon Thorpe
Matt
Matt Sharpe
Matthew Sharpe
Matthew M. Sharpe
Matthew Michael Sharpe
FuzzHammer
Fuzzhammer
Kinpa12
Banidhun
M...S...C..
M...S...C..e
tsharpe96

???