Attention: Henosis Sage

[sign...@gmail.com]

Sean, given your lack of emotional self-control, your vitriolic and incessant abusive outbursts and your unwavering hostility, I have decided to never again respond either directly or otherwise to any post addressed by you to me or to initiate any interaction between us directly or indirectly.

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:43:52 UTC+11, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sean, given your lack of emotional self-control, your vitriolic and incessant abusive outbursts and your unwavering hostility, I have decided to never again respond either directly or otherwise to any post addressed by you to me or to initiate any interaction between us directly or indirectly.

ROFL

Attention Rob!

How are you going to handle it when someone actually does get in your face who
lacks of emotional self-control, is vitriolic with incessant abusive outbursts
towards you and carries won with unwavering hostility against you or Eckankar?

Then what? Because that is not my approach at all. Funny how cannot see this.

But not surprising at all. Enjoy your delusions. So glad you're going to keep
me out of them from here on in. :-)

[Etznab]

On Sunday, March 24, 2019 at 4:43:52 AM UTC-5, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sean, given your lack of emotional self-control, your vitriolic and incessant abusive outbursts and your unwavering hostility, I have decided to never again respond either directly or otherwise to any post addressed by you to me or to initiate any interaction between us directly or indirectly.

Sean can be a really nice person, Rob. I think it is not only evidenced by my saying so, but you can see it in just as many posts, if not way more than the ones you singled out. Also, Kinpa can be a really nice person too, and I remember the times when I really enjoyed his posts. The fact is that we can all be really nice to one another if we want to.

It's a funny thing, you know, that for all these years and all the attacks against me I could have used some other more colorful words, or worded my opinions differently more often. Instead, for the most part, I have used the qualifying words: IMO, IMHO, I believe, I think more than anybody else posting here. I did that, Rob, and I continue to do that out of respect for others and in order not to lord over others by making sweeping statements as if my way or the highway. I know this is what, more than anything else, turns people away from Eckankar and away from the discussion. Also, perhaps more than anybody else, I try to put my queries into the form of questions and not into statements with regard to things I have not evidence to prove beyond a doubt. And even when the evidence is overwhelming I still try to use questions because it allows for people to share their own viewpoints, their own angles, and their own research. At the same time I know the difference between a serious person and a troll. Or a real person and a Bot. The difference between someone who is sincere and someone who is pretending. Besides that, and I think Eckists and people in general should be aware of this too, I can tell when another person is angry and deeply upset about something said here. Sometimes one doesn't need intuition, but all they have to do is read. Kinpa liked to pretend that he never got upset, or that nothing really bothered him. I doubt that. And I doubt that anybody who comes to a.r.e., or comes into life on Earth, will never get upset.

So many times the preoccupation is not about finding the truth of history and the history of religion, but rather is about "defending the faith" and what each person (or group of persons) believes. I've repeated it over and over again that this is what begins wars and the way to prevent it is to clarify the truth NOW. Not to instead as if build forts around what seems to be (according to some) the most perfect religion, true or false, and defend that to every last man, woman and child in spite of the truth.

[fife]

Rob. You really are the perfect poster boy for attachment to forms, appearances, language, vocabulary, cadence... just when I think that something might get through to you, that you might be a human being after all, your programming comes through. I can't see any point of attachment that you've missed. I know you're too humble to congratulate yourself so let me just say how disappointing you are. I guess that's the way it is with rigid personality types. You certainly take the biscuit for how self-unaware you are of how you appear and how you present yourself to others.

[fife]

Here's the thing about your perfection, Rob. You have to let go if it to have spiritual freedom. To know what spiritual freedom really is. You don't think I do spiritual exercises? See the blue light in my daily life? Have occasional intimate personal contact with the living eck master? Then you'd be wrong, Rob.
After 37 years of Eckankar and 10 years of freedom to be a real Soul, the genuine article, not a fop... But you have to find your own way to that Rob, yourself, with your own life.

[fife]

You're in the highest realm of your outer mind there is, Rob. That's true. But you're stuck there in your perfection because of your attachment to perfection.

[fife]

Your problem will be that you won't know how to deal with your lower self and I don't know who can help you with that. But projecting your brand of perfection on someone, hoping that works, so you can drag them along with you, isn't the way.

[fife]

So how does it feel? To be on your own? Like a complete unknown? Like a rolling stone?

Scary? If so, that's because you're still attached to your perfection. Won't let it go. To be a real person with real people.

But maybe that service you just came from is a good start.

[fife]

Red circuit, blue circuit, yellow circuit, Thing. With a line through them all. Jan Cox has something there. It's s rude way, you might want to refine it, but it is a way of the inner conscience.

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 24 March 2019 20:43:52 UTC+11, sign...@gmail.com wrote:

> Sean, given your lack of emotional self-control, your vitriolic and incessant abusive outbursts and your unwavering hostility, I have decided to never again respond either directly or otherwise to any post addressed by you to me or to initiate any interaction between us directly or indirectly.

fwiw, I am still laughing. :-)

[sign...@gmail.com]

A good decision on my part.

[Henosis Sage]

On Monday, 1 April 2019 17:39:15 UTC+11, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> A good decision on my part.

Yes an excellent decision.

" I have decided to never again respond either directly or otherwise to
any post addressed by you to me or to initiate any interaction between
us directly or indirectly. "

Your committent is impressive. Equals your self-awareness and humility. ;-)

[Azutmai]

sign . . .

Nice touch. What Sage says above is quite true . . . your commitment to recognize myopic ignorance and knowing they will never listen . . . heck . . . they will never ever even consider . . . you might as well put your efforts elsewhere. Again . . . they people do not WANT to listen . . . they cannot learn. They are so consumed with finding anything and everything "wrong" . . . that's all they want to see.

Notice . . . how so many deny and dismiss with a simple "laugh" exclamation. The old saying of "Disbelief does NOT disprove" . . . they threw that one out long ago . . . and then they wonder why they are where they are.

LOVE where this board goes under the control of the Caustic Five . . . angels and ritual mass and chuckles. Yeah . . . those are vital to a greater awareness of actual Truth.

Sign . . . take note . . . these people are almost EAGER to promote and advertise what they neither know or understand. And again . . . when in doubt . . . they'll respond with a "ROFL" . . . which in itself shows incredible myopia . . . and evidently . . . "ROFL" is a great put-down or dismissal in their circle.

That lets you know a lot there. They are actually proud to wallow where they are.

Remember sign . . . this is all part of the overall Path. You cannot expect a 3rd grader to understand high school physics. Same concept applies here . . . save for the awareness that these people love their myopic ignorance more than they are willing to risk finding what is . . . and is not . . . actually true. The clear and constant usage of the "ROFL" and versions thereof . . . shows THEIR level of humility.

[Etznab]

Sign... Do you think that is your friend Kinpa?

[fife]

Okay, "Azutmai", but do you understand the "ECK"? And that the Eckankar agenda doesn't teach you what it is? Or how it works?

[fife]

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 12:30:50 PM UTC-4, Azutmai wrote:

"Small minds discuss people. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas. And do you know what's beyond ideas, where "great" doesn't mean anything? I don't really care whether you know or don't know. It's just an interesting thought. Isn't it?

[Azutmai]

Sign . . .

Do you see what they do? They have NOTHING else to resort to . . . so they lead you off on wild-goose chases with misdirects and false accusations. I’m amazed they didn’t find a way to get an “ROFL” in there somewhere.

And fife . . . you have made SO many just totally wrong and incredibly ignorant statements and claims about understanding what this and and what that is not in the teachings of Eckankar . . . there is little you could ever say that I would consider even remotely worthy of a real response. Every time you write something more . . . you express how little you know. And you are proud of it.

Again . . . Sign . . . notice how fife points out a quote that begins with “small minds discussing people . . . “ This is all the Caustic Five have EVER done on this board . . . jam on someone ( Paul ) because they cannot make the teachings of Eckankar work for them . . . so . . . they want to make sure that the teachings work for NO-one . . . and work hard to “prove” that Paul is false in his writings.

Theirs is a sad life . . . but . . . is often the step necessary for them to - - one at a time . . . stop and really LOOK . . . and take the risks necessary to begin to slide the puzzle pieces together.

For Fife to say . . . the teachings do not “teach” what the ECK is . . . is so incredibly blind . . . it’s staggering. What fife is actually saying is . . . even with his wife at one time being an ESA . . . which is HIGHLY suspect . . . he has yet to slide enough pieces together or read the right books or certainly taken the complete set of discourses where such things are clearly aid out . . . for the individual to later prove as true or false for themselves.

The Caustic Five . . . are . . . BORING. They could expend half the energy and begin to uncover and discover. Such is NOT their choice. My sense is . . . there IS one among the Caustic Five that is just beginning to question where he stands . . . and realizing the futility of staying where he is . . . and wondering if maybe . . . just maybe . . .

Henosis Sage writes in another post about being blind . . . yet he himself has been unable to see past the end of his nose for lifetimes. Hypocrisy is their middle name. First they disparage someone . . . then they themselves do that very action . . . then they criticize someone again for doing what they just did.

The world is full of this now. The media is run on this false viewpoint.

Some guy is talking about a military clock . . . on a board concerning the teachings of Eckankar. The common statements of Sage and fife and Etznab and wemertrp and such . . . their statements make as much sense . . . but they DO make sense of and within their circle of understanding . . . thus giving rise to the old saying . . . ignorance is bliss.

[fife]

So. "Azutmai." Look, okay. Small minds discuss people and even smaller minds discuss personalities. I get your point. So. How do you think the level of discussion should be raised? Do you want to attract eckists to this forum? Taking the personality deconstruction road isn't going to do that. You point that out over and over. In fact that's the only thing you have to say. And I don't disagree.

[fife]

Just in case you missed this point in my last post, I said, so why attempt to employ personality deconstruction, yourself? It's not attractive.

[Azutmai]

fife . . . you STILL don’t get it.

It has much less to do with the “people” as it does understanding mind itself . . . why it does what it does . . . how each individual becomes an actual slave to their own mental habits and patterns, Paul called it the “tyranny of the mind” . . . and he was dead on right.

This part of it all . . . part of the path . . . it is not just a criticism . . . it is more of a recognition of what the path is all about . . . what it involves . . . and the traps involved.

And who the heck ever said that facing the truth about oneself was supposed to be “attractive”?

Take responsibility for your own actions . . . figure out the WHY of the statements aimed your way . . . and learn from them. There is a HUGE difference between “personality destruction” . . . a handy pop-psychology word . . . and understanding that there are REASONS the mind acts the way it does. If you want to define the understanding of the reasons and patterns . . . and label them as “personality destruction” . . . gee . . . one of the very first steps towards greater understanding is to call a thing what it is. If it is beautiful . . . it is beautiful. if it is ugly . . . it is ugly.

This board will go nowhere as long as you and Sage and others claim to know and understand the teachings of Eckankar . . . even on a very minimal level . . . and make claim after claim after claim that are untrue. period. Don’t give me this “I may not disagree” after the things you have made and the stances you have taken.

Again . . . it is much less about the people and much more about the processes of the mind . . . with yes . . . people succumbing to those processes . . . and delighting in them. YoU . . . are one of them. You have NO idea what it takes to get beyond that . . . although you have told me more than once that I will “break through” . . . which is an untrue assessment of what happens at the state you actually do that. VERY few ever actually “break through” the mind. It can’t be done . . . and actually makes things worse.

You guys have nothing else to do but what you do. When I said that you CAN’T take another direction . . . I am right. It goes along with the tyranny of the mind . . . the demand that the mind follow the patterns we have taught it . . . and it is NOT widely taught . . . and is even tough to be “secretly” taught . . . how to get beyond that . . . and it takes a long, long time and a lot of effort . . . in the right way.

But you guys never stop . . . you guys never listen . . . which again . . . is part of the tyranny . . . the control that mind has over the individual. The Hindu’s and the Buddhists spend lifetimes literally stopping thought . . . stopping the mind . . . and another dozen or so lifetimes on down the road . . . they are still where they have long been . . . with no real change . . . save for brief R&R against the mind.

You do not want to help people. You want to belittle them and try to nudge them into falling back into those old patterns and habits . . . because you yourself have never been able to make the teachings work . . . which . . . admittedly . . . take lifetimes to put together. It is MIND . . . that says . . . give me a book or two . . . let me study it . . . and then I’ll understand it.

It doesn’t work that way.

So bicker on . . . you people. Study the military clock and angels and attachment and spiritual freedom which you yourself do not understand but are more than willing to call out someone else who has more freedom than you . . . but you belittle him to make sure you stay superior. You have lots of company on this board . . . and have totally ruined it for those who wish to further their spiritual understanding if LIFE as the Whole that IT is. So you can say “ Oh that’s wrong . . . “ and throw in a few “ROFL” and actually believe that means ANY-thing who has been sincerely in these studies for more than three years or so. You guys just deny and dismiss. That’s your saving point. In terms of your OWN spiritual path . . . that actually makes your own patterns worse . . . but . . . maybe 20-30-40 lifetimes on down the road . . . maybe . . . just maybe . . . you’ll be willing to listen.

[Azutmai]

I’ll take all of this one step further . . . fife . . . and others . . . and tell you two very real . . . very viable . . . very truthful . . . very beneficial precepts of understanding the mind and the lower psychic worlds . . . and putting these two together can either open doors or add another deadbolt to your own limitations.

1) . . . To gain and understand greater truth is NOT a matter of what you have yet to learn . . . but MUCH more in what one has yet to give up . . . in terms of the old ways, patterns, and habits.

2) . . . It is NOT that people are so ignorant . . . but much more of an understanding of what they believe to be true . . . what they have held to for eons . . . their foundational patterns and habits that have been taught to us by all around us for lifetime after lifetime after lifetime . . . those beliefs are NOT true. Some are . . . most are not . . . the VAST majority are not . . . and those that have just a little bit of value to them need to be heavily redefined and newly understood. This obviously ties directly into the first.

Now . . . let’s hear the chorus of “ROFL.” Let’s hear the tappet-tap of the dance steps . . . so you do not have to look deep within.

You forget . . . any advancement on the path is for your own benefit. WE . . . ( the authentic Eckists who have been run right out of this board ) . . . do not gain brownie points for helping someone else see . . . anything. There’s no little rocket ship that gets a few more inches closer to the moon if someone else “gets it” for the moment . . . if someone else “sees” for the moment. The benefit is yours . . . and yet you five just take sheer delight in pushing it all away.

Nice touch.

[fife]

Okay. I take the olive branch even if you have to end it with a nasty twist. (Why?)

And I'm sure you know all about being a slave to your mental habits and patterns. You demonstrate that every time you post. Even so, it would be possible to discuss, dialogue, if you weren't do relentlessly unpleasant on purpose.

And, I wrote personality de-con-struction not destruction. That is apparently your own idea.

And I'm not connected to the things you're talking about. But, you're right. Without a head like a rock and an ego the size of London I'll never "get it" to your satisfaction.

And don't you get tired of talking to yourself in two personalities? Certainly that takes care of having to listen to anyone else or of having to try to understand what someone else is saying or why they're saying it.

And doesn't require you to understand anything you're not feeding yourself.

You're not going to attract more eckists to this forum with what you post and the way you post it.

But you don't care if eckist post here or not. That's just a stick you beat yourself with as if anyone is supposed to care that you do.

Eckist don't post here because at one time there were so many eckists like you, sport.

Anachronism doesn't even begin to describe what your presentation is like. But I don't know of a word that is even older, more ossified, more frozen in time (past).

[Tisra Til]

I still say it was aliens...

But anyhoooooo.....

The mind is a virtually infinite well with no real ending. And if you do get to a point where you think "I've transcended the mind. I am free!" Another thought pops into the head. And then you think "oh, hell, now what now?"
Chop wood, carry water....

[Etznab]

Something you said about Fife was the following:

"... because you yourself have never been able to make the teachings work ... ."

Azutmai, you tell another person they have never been able to make the teachings work? You wrote the word never.

I think Fife was right when he wrote:

"... Eckist don't post here because at one time there were so many eckists like you, sport. ... ."

[fife]

Indeed, indeed, indeed.

[Kinpa]

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 12:37:40 PM UTC-4, Etznab wrote:
> Sign... Do you think that is your friend Kinpa?

Why would you ask this? Seems a ridiculous question really. I mean this IS the internet, is anyone actually anyone's friend? Not at all. They only side up with which ever agenda they want to support at a given moment, and those are highly changeable. Rob and I have never met, so we don't even know each other outside of having spoken here. I doubt he considers me a friend because who in the world would?

You seem to be asking if Sign thinks that Atzumi is "his friend Kinpa" but it isn't. You seem to enjoy claiming that I might or must be, but you know full well that i am not. I know who that person is, the same way that I know that it isn't me (and I mean beside the fact that I didn't post those posts). I assume that anyone else could just as easily find out the same if they cared to. I have to assume that you don't care to because you keep asking that same question. You seem to have an agenda involving that, otherwise what would be the point for speaking of it so often?

This is the first time I have looked here since the last time I posted. Because I decided to do the same thing that Rob just did long ago. I just don't devote any attention to any of you or your claims. They aren't a part of my life, I have no need to participate. You can bring up anything I have said in the past, i don't particularly care. Neither does Eckankar.

The proof of that is that you can say whatever you like about it, and no one ever challenges you in court. Because they don't care. That doesn't prove your assertions correct, it just means that no one really cares at all, other than you few. It is your time and attention, spend it how you see fit, just don't expect that anyone else cares, because they don't.

See how easy everything is?

Don't like Eckankar? Okay, fine. Get over it. Otherwise why are you still ranting about it so often? If your attachment is imaginary, you all seem to spend a lot of time on it, investing time INTO it. why? Makes you feel fulfilled? Hey, do what you have to do. The religion continues and it will long after each of you have left this life. You can fight against it if you want to, but none of you has any ability to stop it, get in its way, or destroy it. Perhaps you aren't trying to, I wouldn't know, only you would.

But are any of you doing this to save others from it? Or is it simply an exercise of ego. If it isn't, then explain why you have invested so much into that pursuit? Only because i am curious whether or not anyone can even answer. I don't actually care what the reasons or the answers are.

I can do and say anything that i want to, because i am not employed by Eckankar, and they are in no way responsible for anything that I say here. The exact same reason that YOU can say what you want here. That works both ways you see. That how the law is.

So hey, go ahead, hate Eckankar, talk smack about it too! No one really cares. It has no effect on any aspect of my life. Do what you need to do. Have a nice day.

[Kinpa]

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 9:35:17 PM UTC-4, fife wrote:
> Indeed, indeed, indeed.

Just an unproven opinion however. I mean unless you have some definitive evidence to prove it, then by all means go ahead and prove it.

[fife]

Actually that was a response to Tisra Til's post. But Etznab and I apparently posted at exactly the same time and his post got on the board first.

[Kinpa]

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 10:42:40 PM UTC-4, fife wrote:
> Actually that was a response to Tisra Til's post. But Etznab and I apparently posted at exactly the same time and his post got on the board first.

Fair enough.

[fife]

I've got no interest in the old cut, slash, wound, pour vinegar and salt into the wound way of a.r.e. Or of bringing it back. Fighting never got anyone, anywhere. Everyone has to learn about the ECK in their own way. I've got no problem with that. What works for someone HAS to work for someone else? No. That's nuts. I'm still learning. And that's the main thing (for everyone) isn't it? To keep on learning.

[fife]

Eckankar is a great idea. There's also more wrong about it than anyone imagines. However, if one can get past all that and do what's intended, learn about the ECK, learn all about the ECK, that's what matters. Believe it or not and I don't care. That's where I'm at with it.

[Etznab]

In my opinion, your writings and Azutmai's are similar.

Consider something else, Kinpa. You have outright lied to me in the past several times. This was something that YOU did and which has ruined your credibility.

Besides that, you spout malicious falsehoods nearly every time you post here.

[Etznab]

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 12:17:35 AM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> Eckankar is a great idea. There's also more wrong about it than anyone imagines. However, if one can get past all that and do what's intended, learn about the ECK, learn all about the ECK, that's what matters. Believe it or not and I don't care. That's where I'm at with it.

The problem I have with it are the liars, who know they are liars, and revel in doing it and claim they are spiritual, holy or guided to do it. People's who's imaginations are so deranged they would believe anything but the truth!

Most Eckists I know and have known are not this way. They would not write things like Kinpa did. For example:

07/04/15

"Yes, quite like your actions at ARE for the past several years, claiming to have proof of things you cannot prove, and claiming to be an ECKist and yet having no current card....if you'd like to scan a copy of your card and post it here, I would be willing to withdraw that statement, but I think it goes quite a way in proving that YOU have been purposely deceiving others, if not flat out lying..."

"... You have told me you were a member, but that IS a lie, that is the simple fact of the matter, you are NOT a current member of Eckankar, therefore you are most certainly NOT an ECKist by ANY standards! You speak as if you expect that making the CLAIM of being an ECKist has ANY value, however it does not! Yes the card DOES matter! If you were a member and can prove tat, as I said I will retract those words, but you have never proven that, so it is only a CLAIM that is 100% without evidence! [...]

"Your being an "ECKist" is also untrue...you pay sometimes, and you let it lapse, and then you come here and are anything BUT an ECKist...you do NOT have a current card! THAT is the reason you refuse to show anything, but that isn't surprising, you NEVER show anything! [...]"

"Oct./2014 is not exactly current Mr. McLintock, feel free to deny it and claim I am crazy, your habits are well known, but that cannot change the fact that you KNOW this is true, pull your card out and look at it!"

Note: Text for deleted post(s) is here:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/uHSdZQXyfAo/nurhMbhI2G4J

and here:

http://alt.religion.eckankar.narkive.com/5eUyI9Dc/kinpa-wrote-you-have-told-me-you-were-a-eck-member-but-that-is-a-lie-2015-04-07

and here:

http://www.jlaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=331308126&start=20

07/06/15

"... regardless of what I said about your membership, there is nothing you can do, I also get to have my own opinions, but you know full well that if you look at your card it says the date I gave you, you simply refuse to admit that ... ."

07/08/15

"... much like your false Eckankar membership (which does not currently exist) ... ."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/KVOiP_ApFwM/eVwKF8yOnVsJ

07/11/15

"[...] Richard McLintock! I'd be happy to speak to headquarters and have them get your membership records which at the very least, would prove who was right and who was wrong about that issue. You are completely mistaken if you think that to be some sort of private info! [... .]"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/BrMdjOdqv8o/q8fU2r-UqPsJ

01/06/16

" ... and I still maintain that you do NOT have a card at all! Tough luck I guess! Have a great night richard! ... ."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/0Rlgf1XTLIQ/izvFKPj_BAAJ

"That was how this began, I did not ever ask you. I stated that you do NOT have a current one. [...] feel free to prove me wrong!"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/mKPJPAMq0rs/85-0VhIjs8cJ

"Keep crying and whining each time anyone says a thing that you dislike! Eckankar needs no defense from the likes of you! It amuses me that you think it does however. How flattering that you devote so much of your time to go and dig things up that you try so hard to misrepresent here. Endlessly hilarious! Feel free to not send in your donation to Eckankar! LOL"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/A6-M2o6FDeM/pwqLLBVwAgAJ

"Most just don't care in the least....how long has it been since you were an actual ECKist?"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/FskYigVi5Wc/exBGVDf-AAAJ

"Stop masking your own denial! Hilarious! He asked you whether or not you are an ECKist. Why did you not answer him and try to change the subject? I know that you have CLAIMED to be an ECKist, but you have never actually proven that to be true. I like him highly doubt that you are in any way affiliated with Eckankar in the least of ways...it may not be your responsibility, but I am calling you a liar for claiming to be an ECKist. You ARE responsible for making false claims. Deal with it. Also, plagiarism in no way disproves the existence of any Masters... Have a great day richie!"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Y3d-5iRxC7s/12NES5OyCAAJ

Eckankar members who outright lie about the status of other members in spite of the members telling them the truth over and over is malicious and falsehoods that are not the actions of someone who seriously wants to discuss topics, IMHO. Kinpa and Rob and their "authentic Eckists" blather is each their own cult and it is not what I would call the Eckankar teachings.

See. Nobody stood up to these type of rants here in the past, or present unless they were people who chose to leave as a result. Many members and clergy of Eckankar for decades willing left the organization, the religion on account of those kind of rants and account of other people rudely TELLING other people what they just said. IOW redefining a person's own words for them and telling other people that is the truth and not what the individual actually said.

How many Eckists stood up to the self righteous muddy boot stomping wolves that Harold even wrote to High Initiates about years ago (a transcript of which was first posted on ESA)? How many Eckists have stood up to other members who lie and publicly spout malicious falsehoods here at a.r.e.? And where are they in a.r.e., or anywhere? It is not fighting and arguing, but it is counteracting a negative and negativity. Something, perhaps, most members of Eckankar are too afraid to do. Too afraid to publicly call another member on a lie, as if that would somehow taint the teachings of Eckankar.

To date, Kinpa has never apologized for his malicious falsehoods. IOW, he is an outstanding liar!

[Kinpa]

Because you are such a whiny crybaby that you deserve it. Tough nuts kid! The fact remains that you can't provide any evidence that we are the same person. So get over it, or don't, I seriously couldn't care less. See? That is just the way the internet works. I can say ANYTHING I want to, and I don't have to prove it. And you can;t do a thing to stop me from saying anything. Just like you can make as many outrageous claims about Eckankar and Paul Twitchell as you want to, not to mention Harold Klemp and any number of others. You do the exact same thing about me too, so quit whining.

Maliciousness is in the eye of the beholder. End of story. I mean unless you con offer proof of exactly what I mean. And you can't, just like you can't prove that Eckankar is a stolen teaching from ANY path, least of all Sant Mat. The same way that you can;t prove that the ECK Masters do NOT exist. You simply cannot. It is simply an opinion and nothing more. Some might pay it heed and listen and believe, others might not. Pretty simple. They call it "individuality."

By the same token you cannot prove that any past Sant or even a Param Sant doesn't know and recognize any of the ECK Masters, although I'd love to see your face if one came to you and said that. I enjoy a good laugh. In the end it is quite irrelevant. You can only control your own world. I have no issue with that either, I only control my own. I honestly don't care to control that of any other. Did I consider your points well enough for you? No? That's alright, you'll get over it eventually, unless you get under it, that choice is yours alone however.

For as much work as you do trying to pick what i say apart, i am surprised that you have never bothered to put that much effort into finding out who that other person is. It's amusing really, because "my writings and Azutmai's are similar." is the best that you can do? I'm not sure in what world THAT counts as evidence of any sort, but it proves nothing at all. You'd need something specific, yet you have nothing. Hardly surprising. But you guys love to assume things and then simply decide that suddenly makes the assumptions evidence. I've got news for you, reality doesn't work quite that way. Beliefs do though.

Have I ruined my credibility with YOU? What if I never cared about YOUR opinions? Ever consider that? Apparently not. Quite the fascination with your own pride you've got there. My credibility is actually quite outstanding with other groups that by far outnumber the 3 here that like to complain about me so often. And that is as things should be. You are welcomed to your beliefs and opinions, I have no issue with you having them, but don't overvalue your place in my life. Discovering the reality of that wouldn't likely satisfy you even a little.

Baraka Bashad, and may you be blessed by the Sugmad, the ECK, and the Mahanta, and also have a great evening! Was that malicious and false enough for your expectations? No? Sorry to disappoint...

[Kinpa]

You have yet to prove any falsehood whether malicious or otherwise. Claiming it doesn't prove it. Try again. BUT, if it is so false and untrue, why are you still complaining about it? Eckankar isn't going to send anyone here to discipline me for saying anything. Sean isn't going to get management or anyone else to do that either, though he loves to insist that he already has.

Am I an "outstanding liar?" Why use that adjective? I guess that even you consider it completely realistic and believable for being a lie! That makes me wonder, is it actually a lie? You say so. Okay. So what?

Why would any ECKist owe YOU to come here and call me out on anything? That is what you seem to be implying ought to happen. My words haven't a thing to do with the teachings of Eckankar, they have only to do with me personally. But you DO always like to blow things well out of proportion don't you? You do that with so many of your claims about Eckankar. Who cares what anyone wrote anyone else about?

Want to be free of it? It's extremely simple. Just let it go! BOOM! Done! No longer a problem for you in the least of ways! On the other hand if you're quite attached to it, then by all means keep spending your attention on it, because there is literally no better way to keep a thing circulating in your world than doing that! But I am charged as being a "malicious liar," so what would I know about it? I guess you'll figure out what is best for you to do with all of it...do what you have to do...

[Kinpa]

You could easily enough refute that claim by showing your membership card, with the membership number blocked out, just as I did before I ever asked you to...hardly rocket science...I mean unless you have some little white lie to hide yourself...I'm honestly not concerned in the least whether you are a member or aren't, and am not likely to bother checking to see if you miraculous;y do post a pic of it, because you have been complaining for years now that you wouldn't and never have, so...I see precious little evidence proving me a liar...I haven't bothered trying to do any digging to get any of your records, but a person easily could if they wanted to, just saying....do what you have to do, and think what you want to think. None of it is an important issue to me.
Baraka Bashad Mr. ECKist! May you be blessed by Sugmad's Divine Love, as well as that of the ECK and the Mahanta! THERE! I covered even THAT base, just in case you ARE an ECKist, though one could hardly tell by the way you speak of Eckankar. Not a lot of love going on there from you obviously...but hey, do what you want to do, not my concern!

[Azutmai]

Well now . . . lookit this. This is the first time I've run across posts by the "infamous" Kinpa . . . the person I am supposed to be . . . or something like that. Kinpa . . . after just glancing down through your post . . . you are right on the money ! I acknowledge that you are even more blunt and blatant than I am . . . which is saying something. I commend you.

I still don't know why Etznab wanted me to jump on some bandwagon and ask whether i wanted to "condone" your "lies." I wasn't gonna bite . . . which I assume didn't set well with Etznab. You can just bet . . . I lost sleep over that one. < snicker >

From what I quickly read below . . . there is little I would find even mildly questionable . . . let alone objectionable. You just hit the nail a bit harder on the head . . . and again . . . I find that most refreshing. People have NO idea how hard they work at NOT listening.

On we go.

[Azutmai]

fife . . .

Evidently you have held yourself blameless for so long . . . you now deeply consider that it is someone else’s fault. It is someone else who makes “nasty twists.” Your own comments can *never* be considered as such. Someone else is a slave to their mental habits because *you* have broken through? and gotten beyond all of that.

As far as destruction versa deconstruction . . . same thing. Check out the thesaurus. One DE-constructs . . . which . . . destructs.

You have been telling people they do not get it and are misled and they misunderstand . . . ever since I came into this board.

Let’s have a couple of examples . . . altho a bit over-dramatic. Person A takes a gun and walks into a house and kills someone. Person B has seen this and says . . . “Hey Person A . . . you just killed someone. You’re a murder.” Person A says . . . “HEY . . . that’s personality deconstruction / destruction.” Person says “You’re totally ignorant and misinformed.” Person B says . . . “Hey . . . you just ridiculed and mocked someone else while not knowing really where that person is coming from.” Person A responds . . . “HEY . . . that’s personality deconstruction / destruction.”

And on and on and on. The so-called Person B cannot make any statements unless Person A makes his accusations and ridicules first. Hello? Cause and effect? Hello?

With viable, authentic Eckists . . . who are well along and established on the path and into the Teachings . . . I will put what I post and the way I post it up against anything you guys put forth ANY-time. My posts have not run people off. Your’s . . . has.

And I love the last statement . . . which is so indicative of where you all are coming from . . . it is what your presentation is like.

I want you to take a moment . . . and find some quiet place . . . and quietly but very firmly tell LIFE . . . under whatever name you call IT . . . “Hey LIFE . . . when you give me information . . . I want it THIS way. I’m not gonna even consider anything unless you give me the data and the information in the way * I * want it. Don’t try to con me, LIFE. I want stuff the way I like it.”

It would be a great experiment. After another 10-20 lifetimes . . . you might begin to heavily reconsider your demands.

To continue . . . someone who has actually made the teachings work implicitly in their life . . . would not make the statements you have made. You . . . and others.

There is a new post about the Sugmad . . . and “how little IT is discussed.” To an Eckist who is at least established on the Home of Soul . . . that statement by you clearly establishes how much you have read . . . or more accurately you have NOT read . . . and certainly how few of the discourses you have ever participated in. You . . . and the rest who made similar posts there.

NO ONE . . . not even a viable Master . . . can take someone into and through the emotional and mental areas unless and until that individual WANTS to work their way through them and is willing to put in the time and effort and take the risks to do so. As I have said many times . . . you people work *against* working into and through these areas much more ardently that for the progress. You people think that you are responding to just other individuals on this board . . . such as myself or kinda or sign . . . or whomever. On one level . . . that is true. On a much greater level . . . you are declaring to LIFE . . . your tendency to bicker and complain and find fault with and such. LIFE . . . knows what you are doing. I’m certainly not going to tell you how IT knows this . . . but . . . you can literally bet your personal life that IT does.

LIFE is more brutal and ruthless and uncompromising that you people believe kinda and I could ever be. There are preliminary factors that must be in place any time an individual takes a viable step forward. If that’s not done . . . you stay where you are. Raise your fist to LIFE and declare that unfair is you wish. See where it gets you. But with baby steps into sincerity and devotion and courage and strength . . . one gains . . . and then another step . . . and then another step. If not . . . then you stay where you are . . . for as long as it takes. LIFE doesn’t care how long it takes you to “get it.”

Love the comments in another post about “everybody has their own Eckankar.” I’m glad that individual is content to work with that. If LIFE had an actual “head” . . . that head would be nodding after perceiving that statement in that individual and LIFE would reach for the stamp and stamps that person’s Lifetime File . . . “Check back in 50 lifetimes.”

If you people can set aside the built-in ridicule of that example . . . you can make it work for you. If not . . . it is your choice.

So fife . . . it is not with me that you need to extent the olive branch. It is with LIFE that you must make such a gesture. Until you get out of your own way and are willing to call a spade a spade . . . and not couch it in “prettier terms” . . . you are declaring to LIFE where you are and how ardently you wish to stay there . . . daily.

You people have NO vision as to just how beneficial you are to even have the less-than-basic teachings of Eckankar available to feely in the open public sector. These teachings have been underground for centuries. So far . . . you’ve looked more drastically for reasons to NOT believe . . . than to put in the time and effort and discipline to make them work for you. Nom one held a gun to your head to make those decisions. YoU chose them freely. Begin to heavily ponder that no one has claimed you to be ignorant or misinformed or whatever without that statement being a reaction to something YoU put forth first.

Spend some time in considering that.

[Etznab]

So you are a new recent Eckist? One on the path a long time would be familiar with the saying:

"Everybody has their own Eckankar."

[Etznab]

No one on this board has written like you since Kinpa. And Kinpa knows who you are.

Actually, that says a lot.

[Azutmai]

Been in the organization . . . this lifetime . . . 35+ years. Have been to and beyond the True Home of Soul for about half of that. Have touched bases with many of the Masters . . . "unreal" and otherwise.

Have read 90% of Paul's books many times . . . also the majority of Harolds . . . and been thru all the discourses . . . with many re-reads . . . just for the sake of refresher.

You're gonna have to counter better than that. "You should know that phrase" doesn't cut it.

[Azutmai]

In fact . . . please clarify the difference between Eckankar and ECK . . . other than the use of capital letters. If you are so well-versed . . . you will clearly and very succinctly know the difference. And once defined and clarified by you . . . please reveal the basis for your own statement . . . how it applies . . . how it holds true . . . to all.

[Azutmai]

Once again people . . . it comes down to the WAY I write . . . not what I say . . . not what I stand for . . . not the things I point out. It's presentation that these people flip out on. "HEY . . . you didn't present it the way I like it."

I have NO idea if kinpa knows who I am or not . . . and it makes NO difference to me. Your accusation says more than what kinpa might or might not know. In a sense . . . we DO know each other . . . because i can recognize his stance as a very old and weary one when wrestling with people like you . . . who fight harder to NOT learn . . . than to learn.

Which again . . . to bel clear . . . is part of the path . . . so it is NOT an insult.

[Etznab]

Everyone has their own Eckankar. It was a very common phrase. You have heard of it then?

[Etznab]

"... And this is what the path of ECK is all about. Walking the path to God. Even more, it's about walking your path to God. Because your path is not my path. And my path is not yours. But that's OK. ... ."

- Harold Klemp

[Etznab]

Eck, Eckankar ... whichever way you want it. My path is not yours. Enjoy!

[Azutmai]

Nice dance-step. No . . . I have not heard of that phrase . . . after all the readings and discourses. BUT . . . I *might* acknowledge that it is a common phrase . . . OUTSIDE of the authentic teachings of Eckankar. Please . . . once again . . . tell me where it can be found in the valid, verified, authentic teachings of Eckankar. Like - - book / page number . . . or . . . discourse / page number. Not . . . wikipedia / etc.

If you can furnish that and it is valid . . . I will stand corrected . . . and will have learned something. if not . . . your intention is clear.

[Azutmai]

Aha . . . nice touch. I totally agree with what Harold said and I acknowledge the basis from which He said it. But again . . . you twist and redefine words and phrases. That phrase does NOT say . . . everyone has their own Eckankar. Each walks their own path . . . yes. HUGE difference.

See how the mind will juggle and twist to suit the tastes of the individual?

[Azutmai]

And REALLY nice on the Eck - Eckankar . . . whatever. Oh yeah . . . THAT clarifies it.

[Etznab]

I asked if you heard it before. It was very common and repeated by Eckists and clergy.

Surprised that you never heard of it.

How about Harold's quote? I shared it especially for you. ENJOY!

[Etznab]

You have not heard of that phrase? In all your years?

Very peculiar.

[fife]

Hi. Azutmai. I've been all day at a place where the internet connection was so slow that I timed out every time I tried to use it. Or I would have seen your post and responded sooner.

Yeah. Let's not do this. It doesn't work, never has worked, and is never going to work. I don't know you, you don't know me, I don't know your personality, you don't know my personality, I don't know you as a person, you don't know me as a person.

You're an interesting guy (I think). And you don't know me. Also, you confuse me with the way you go on some times.

It's going to take me some time to get to know you better. But only if you're willing. And you're going to have to get to know me better to get anywhere close to the mark of who, what, how, why... etc. etc. I am.

Don't want to? Up to you. Let's try to remember what I think you"ll agree to. Everyone's different. They don't see life through our eyes. The way we do. They don't have the history, background, experience we do. And when they don't know - don't really know - what the other's life, view, and why - is, well...

Do you know the Shariyat (I believe it's book 1) says "once an ECK initiate"? Interesting isn't it?

[Azutmai]

As you can see . . . I responded to Harold’s quote . . . which I agree with. Your convolution of what Harold said . . . I do not. Your claim that “Eckists and clergy” say it all the time . . . is not my experience . . . and is a clear attempt to agree or disagree with statements made by others and cannot be validated by same. Everyone walking their own Path . . . certainly. But every walking their own Eckankar . . . according to the authentic teachings of Eckankar and what the actual and viable definition of Eckankar is . . . no . . . everyone does not walk their own Eckankar. Their own path . . . yes. So . . . to walk your own Path . . . certainly I have herd it. It is as common as air. To walk your own Eckankar . . . no. I am still suspicious that it is as common as you claim because . . . unless the person using it is aware of what it means . . . it might be a very viable attempt tp water down the original stances on many things. If a well-learned student of the teachings makes that statement . . . then they have the right to do so . . . even tho it might not be fundamentally accurate according to what the true and working definition of what Eckankar is.

This is the same thing you tried to trap me in to “condone” what kinpa said. You give me your version . . . and then wish me to take a stand on it. The way you twisted the quote by Harold . . . your statements on most anything are highly suspect.

Here’s an example . . .

A first grader claims “Everyone walks the path of the college graduate” . . . or more closely to your own quote . . . the First Grader says “Everyone has their own college degree.”

Doesn’t work that way.

The first grader will walk their own way to the senior year in college and then will be able to walk at that level of teachings that will bring all together into the level of a college degree . . . and that path would be complete . . . as far as it goes.

What is so truly astounding about the mental areas is . . . people within those areas turn down opportunity after opportunity to learn. Yes . . . it IS part of the path. Eventually it comes to an end. But protecting and defending that which is NOT . . . is not the way to get to what IS.

And the ultimate dance step . . . “My path is not your path” as an excuse for not looking . . . simply meaning . . . “I am NOT letting you tell me ANY-thing. I will NOT listen.”

STOP . . . Etznab . . . just STOP. Take some time away from this and let yourself grow. You’ve had encounters with Rebezar . . . if I am to take what you have claimed in other posts as accurate. It is tough to slow the snowball effect but it CAN be done. As another old saying expounds . . . “It is very simple . . . but it is NOT easy.” If you have had even *one* encounter with Rebezar . . . then you deserve and have earned the right and the level to begin taking these deeper steps. Take them.

And fife . . . I will stop when you stop telling everyone else how uninformed and misguided and such they are.

[fife]

The quote is: "once an ECK initiate, always an ECK initiate". I had to hurry up and finish because the library where I was posting from was closing. So I blew the quote. Still interesting.

[fife]

Azutmai. You said you loved the english language. "Countenance" is an interesting word don't you think? I looked it up recently. There's more to it than one might think there is.

[fife]

Atzu- Do you know there's a place for everyone in the ECK and it's not up to you to say what it is or know what it is? And do you know that it's quite annoying when someone speaks or writes as if they know your whole past and can see your whole future? Because they don't.

Don't start a whole thread about this. Just think about it. Let's maybe pick it up down the road if it still matters.

[fife]

Once anyone (I, you, he, she, it, we, you, they, me, you, him, her, it, us, you, them, my, your, his, her, its, our, your, their, mine, yours, his, hers, its, ours, yours, theirs - pick a pronoun) gets into a mental/causal loop around and around there's no breaking out of it and no "winning". The only way is to recognize it's just stupid, a waste of time and causation and just quit doing it.

That's what you're saying too isn't it Azutmai?

There's no winning and no winning scenario for anyone. As long as they keep running the loop. Who? Pick a pronoun. Who cares? It's a trap.

[Tisra Til]

Whoa, seeker! So happy you jumped down off the soul plane for awhile to share all of that nasty mental stuff you had to endure to get where you are. Must have been difficult, what with all the time you have sojourned on the "soul plane".... and beyond.

Question: have you spent any of that massive mental energy of yours reading what others have said regarding such topics as spirit-eck-prana-chi, God, the Absolute, planes, subtle bodies, ESP, clairvoyance, telepathy and so on? I understand if you haven't. Having to dive into all of that nasty mental stuff others have written about (basically regurgitating what P.K., H.K. and R.T. have said-written) would be quite the drag, I would imagine. Even if they did say the same thing. Maybe with different imagery..... but same message. Okay, maybe not same. But similar.

[fife]

Atzumai. The mental/causal loop is the wheel of karma and reincarnstion. And the deal is to break free your own way and go back to your divine source. With help? Sure. Without help? Sure, if you already know how. Atzumai goes Atzumai's way. fife goes fire's way. That's the deal. No one else can say someone else's (when it in fact is) isn't the way. We're just lucky we each know our own. And when you can't be grateful for that and not hypercritical of others following their way, you keep coming back to the loop until you do recognize that, at which time you've liberated yourself to be completely free to come and go on your own and not get stuck.

[fife]

You're saying all the right stuff. Atzu- but it's your dogmatic way of saying it that puts everyone off. You can step out of that and say exactly the same thing in your own words. But maybe the rhetoric is your way. Who knows? My full time job is to keep fife's way out and back alive as long as fife is alive in this world. As, I'm sure, Azutmai's is Azutmai.

[Etznab]

I've had encounters with the characters in the movies I watched just before bedtime, too. Does it mean those characters are real? No it does not.

BTW. Everybody has their own Eckankar. As an Eckist of many years you should know this. Your path is not my path, etc., has a similar meaning.

You argue just like Kinpa.

[Etznab]

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 9:04:16 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> You're saying all the right stuff. Atzu- but it's your dogmatic way of saying it that puts everyone off. You can step out of that and say exactly the same thing in your own words. But maybe the rhetoric is your way. Who knows? My full time job is to keep fife's way out and back alive as long as fife is alive in this world. As, I'm sure, Azutmai's is Azutmai.

Fife, maybe you were not here and reading this board when Kinpa posted about 800 times (or more) between 2015 to 2016. I was. And I read every one of those posts. So when I say that Azutmai writes like Kinpa I am not saying it lightly. There is a very strong resemblance, IMHO.

Now it's possible they are just two people with the same kind of writing habits.

Kinpa said he knows who Azutmai is? Not sure what to make of that when Azutmai doesn't know who Kinpa is.

My questions for people on this board about Kinpa and his writing style was for a reason. Especially when I asked Azutmai about his opinion. It was quite some time ago when I asked these things. I did it for a very good reason and not long after Azutmai first appeared here.

Additionally, there was a reason I asked Azutmai to explain his use of the words scant plagiarism. And a good reason why I asked that question repeatedly.

The questions are things I wanted to know, but they were also things that showed me how people responded. How they responded and what were their opinions. It helped me to know them better.

I can tell you a little about myself, if you want to know me better too. Besides reading Kinpa's posts, I've been on this board for well over a decade and probably have posted more times than anybody else in a.r.e. history! So I have experience with people posting here and think I know fairly well when someone is serious, sincere and a decent person vs. a poser and / or a troll. I've watched the same people use multiple names here as if to appear as other posters. It is not a new thing. I've been using the same username from the beginning. Not just on this board, but on others as well. Not everybody has done this. Some have and some have not. I took an interest in history many years ago. First the history of words, followed by the history of the world. I especially like ancient history. The older the better, IMO. I've studied religions from these perspectives also. From the perspective of the history written about them and the meanings of the words chosen to describe them. And all of this history in context to time, because things change over time. My serious study of Eckankar history began years after I was a member and it was not something I went looking for, but something that came to me when an Eckist told me that Ford Johnson had written a book. It took me a long, long time to seriously look at the book. It had a lot of what David Lane already said, but I wasn't very active here in a.r.e. when David, Doug and others were having open debates. My impression of David Lane was very biased and off base since I didn't look into things myself, but judged him according to what other Eckists said. Since I liked history and was already in the habit of recording it I decided to make a timeline of history about Eckankar. I also did this after deciding to look for myself about what was mentioned in Ford Johnson's book and what was mentioned by David Lane and others. After looking into things it made me disgusted to see Eckists and former Eckists (many of whom had been Eckankar clergy for decades) arguing and trashing one another over things that most of them didn't even study, or research for themselves! Instead they each chose a camps and then parroted what the supposed leaders of each camp were saying. It was pathetic. Rich Smith who claimed there was only 2% plagiarism, when he was asked whether he even read the plagiarized book his answer was no! It's absolutely pathetic I tell you. But these kind of things, the self-righteous and the trolls I owe a debt of gratitude. For without them and their disgusting behavior I would not have the motivation to have done even half of the research I did. It also bothers me a lot less to see some of the kind of things that people write, because I've seen it so many times.

Years ago someone from this board trusted another member who also posted here and I warned the former from the get go to be weary of the latter. I said it for a reason and my advice turned out to have merit.

This stuff about Eckists defining other people and telling who is an authentic Eckist, or not, that is totally not in the Eck Arahata book. Harold Klemp gave a talk long ago about an Eck Temple tour guide that was so full of their self and wondered why the new people didn't seem interested in what she had to say. The lesson she learned was about listening to others and letting others share some about their own paths. See, this woman was all in the face of these two guys and didn't have time to listen to them, or to let them talk. But that was the lesson. To get to know the other seekers and to let them tell their stories. IOW, to put everybody on an equal level and talk like decent people who all respect the others. Not to put oneself above others as if looking down on them because that doesn't work. That was what I got from Harold's talk about the tour guide. This story came out many, many years ago. One that I believe Harold told for a very good reason.

[fife]

Okay. Don't get upset.

[fife]

Look, Etz. Thanks. I appreciate your trying - actually, I don't know what. But don't worry about it. Actually, if Atzumai is a fake it's a hell of a hoot. And if not, what's wrong with playing it straight? It's all... I don't even know what the hell it is. A gamble? I don't know.

[fife]

Some of the stuff on this board is so damn funny I can't even talk about it. Ha ha, man, you've GOT to remember that NOBODY'S life depends on a.r.e. Don't get so serious about it that any of it upsets you. Remember that nobody's giving a quiz at the end of the period. What doesn't amuse, lose. This place is not something to eat yourself up about.

[fife]

Hey. So. How about this? I know you love history and I like history too. So let me float this by you. The causal plane is the history plane. History, memory, records. I wrote a post towards the end of this thread (so far) and one in the Imitation. the sincerest form of flattery? thread about the mental/causal loop. Mental/causal, causal/mental. Same thing. A loop 'round and 'round.

Okay, check this. The wisdom/history Or history/wisdom loop. Same thing. A loop that goes 'round and 'round between those two and that's it. You're the investigator. Do you see anything there that's interesting? Or why just going back and forth between those two could be dull?

Some? Yeah. Interesting. A lot? Maybe a lot of the same thing over and over? Maybe not?

[fife]

It's like lives. You've got to move on to the next one to keep moving on. If you keep going back to the old one, the one you've lived and solved there's nothing more to do. And you're not moving on. To a new life with a new history and wisdom to resolve.

[fife]

Looking at history and figuring it out? Great. Being history? Especially being the same history over and over? Not so great.

[Etznab]

I think your definition of history is like some of the others who try and make it unimportant like the mind.

Take away your ability to remember history, like everything that happened in the last five minutes, and repeat that for the rest of your life and maybe you would wish that you knew some history.

Just wasn't sure where you were going with that. The key word, IMO, is "story" like with stories of a building that are all connected and you don't get to one without going through the others.

These are just my opinions, mind you. Memory, history, mind ... they are put down by people who claim to be spiritual, as if somehow less important, but I really think it is semantics. People stereotype certain words and then you talk to them and they can't see outside those stereotypes.

If you had a grand out of body spiritual experience and then back in your human state of consciousness couldn't remember it, or what part came before and after what other part is that what you would call ideal? Or what about "following the path" to wherever? How do you do that without memory, history or mind? How do you explain it to others?

I think all of these hoodoo gurus today have a way of explaining the path to God as they see it. And they use words. They even write books. They give speeches and they even found religions. Then they have records and histories for their paths and will talk with you about their experiences, your experiences, etc.

Sorry Fife if I don't understand your meaning, but a statue probably thinks history is dull too. And a statue probably has no mind or memory. Is it then like some successful spiritual person having attained God Realization? One that many people would pay money to follow? It can't talk back to you. Can't say thing and will always keep the same form apart from what age and the weather does to it over time. This is precisely the state of many religions and the forms of history they use. So many relics that people are talking about and relics in the form of writings that are not like living people because a lot of them have been changed, corrupted and and nobody knows the true from the false because the relic doesn't speak. The words are just words. Over and over again century after century the same story. Yeah it's dull. That kind of thing is so dull so many people are avoiding it like the plague and churches are closing for want of funds.

Now get this. If with all the technology and wisdom today people could take a religion like, say, Judaism and explain the truth about it and show undeniable proof about that truth. And if people could do the same for Christianity, Islam and Eckankar, etc. then would that be so boring to learn those stories? I would go to a church that told the truth and presented true history vs. pseudo history and to me it would not be dull. Because I and others could see the truth about real stories and real events and how those are connected to other events in the history of the world and the universe. A lot could be learned, including how and why so many people "dropped the ball" in the first place.

[Etznab]

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 at 4:25:38 AM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> Looking at history and figuring it out? Great. Being history? Especially being the same history over and over? Not so great.

Actually, if my body could keep being it's 25-year-old body over and over I would take that one over the 50-year plus one.

Just joking. You know?

[Azutmai]

fife . . . I must be off and running for the weekend . . . for both Saturday and Sunday . . . but afterwards . . . if you are still interested . . . i would like very much to share a viewpoint or two about "knowing or not knowing" someone else. There have been maybe a dozen people or so in recent years that were perceptive enough to listen and . . . once explained . . . fully understood what that entailed. In effect . . . the technique is a great assistant in understanding Self . . . and . . . others.

And Etznab's insistence that I am someone else is a great example of the habits and patterns I have been pointing out.

Etznab . . . I am NOT . . . kinpa . . . or anyone else other than someone new to the board as of a few months ago . . . and kinpa is NOT . . . me.

Period.

That you continue to disbelieve *could* be a real insight into yourself.

Later.

[Henosis Sage]

a word about awareness, the facts and non-shared realities.

RE : "And Etznab's insistence that I am someone else"

Got any direct quotes to a specific post with a link to it where that is true?
Because I don't think you do. :-)

[Henosis Sage]

RE: ... "How do you do that without memory, history or mind? ...
.... How do you explain it to others?"

Without them no one could write a post to a.r.e., or read one. :-)

Our memory history and stories all add to who we are and our personalities, psychology etc. iow they influence what the mind is like and how it works.

Take away someone's memory, their history, and they are no longer the person
they used to be. People who have studied such things have reported on their
work, knowledge and understanding. Our memories, our history (ie experiences)
and our mind blend together to form what we're like and how we think.

That would even include the movies we have seen, the books we have read and
the people we have met, our personal dreams from kids to today, key events
in our lives, who we fell in love with and why, and especially how we related
to those events in our lives. And much of that all played out in the mind,
and that's were those memories and patterns are stored.

The memories, the history, the writings of and about eckankar all contribute
in their own way with individuals and intersects in their own memoires, personal
history, and their mind. People who have not read the same books can often have
different interpretations of what eckankar is about, and even people who have read the same books and discourses come away with different things.

Each has their own individual selections of what they remember, the kind of
memory, may relate with something they read showing up in their own life at the same time or another. These all form memories and create a history.

Eckankar has it's own history, and memory and mind at work. And everyone has
their own knowledge of, separate interpretation of, their own history and memory about all that.

Reminding people of things that occurred they have no memory of themselves,
were never told by an 'authoritative figure or book' about such history is
problematic, depending on the person.

Even basic conversations with other people's history, memory, knowledge and
state of mind when they do not know the whole History of Eckankar can easily
be problematic.


People take their own memory, history, knowledge and mind pretty seriously.
It's an intrinsic part of them, and most hate change or even minor renovations.

cheers mate,
(smile)

[Henosis Sage]

Y'all giving my name a bad name using this thread subject.

Nuffin' to do with me!

Please move all this along to another thread/s.

Thank you.

[fife]

Henosis:
Hey. Good morning.

Etznab:
Did you know that one of P.T.s suggestions was that third and fifth initiate's work together in Eckankar? That would have been interesting, don't you think? Third and fifth initiates? (Symbolically) history and truth?

Interesting also how that never caught on. Never became policy or a practical... practice in in "the way". How no one ever saw the wisdom in the suggestion, the wisdom of it. Those two helping each other out, keeping each other in balance, each developing and moving forward, and the way of Eckankar developing and moving forward as well.

[fife]

Henosis. I had the same thought about this thread when I brought up the board this morning and saw it at the top of the queue. Again.

Ah, well. It'll be off to the races with something else soon enough I expect.

[fife]

Atzumai. Okay. Sure. After the weekend. Why don't you start a new topic - when you're ready? I'm interested in what you want to say. Don't be shocked if I agree with you. Okay?

[Henosis Sage]

On Sunday, 7 April 2019 06:19:03 UTC+10, fife wrote:
> Atzumai. Okay. Sure. After the weekend. Why don't you start a new topic - when you're ready? I'm interested in what you want to say. Don't be shocked if I agree with you. Okay?

Alas, a fool and his allotted time for useful pursuits are soon parted. :-)

[Henosis Sage]

AKA (also known as):

"Don't Feed the Trolls."

[Henosis Sage]

an after thought, there are sometimes, some things that can't be remembered,
don't go into one's memory because the 'mind' works in different way than what
one saw/understood. some things don't 'compute'. Or at least that's my excuse.
/explanation.

[Etznab]

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 12:17:35 AM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> Eckankar is a great idea. There's also more wrong about it than anyone imagines. However, if one can get past all that and do what's intended, learn about the ECK, learn all about the ECK, that's what matters. Believe it or not and I don't care. That's where I'm at with it.

Yeah. O.K. I hear you.

[Etznab]

On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 5:49:22 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> Atzu- Do you know there's a place for everyone in the ECK and it's not up to you to say what it is or know what it is? And do you know that it's quite annoying when someone speaks or writes as if they know your whole past and can see your whole future? Because they don't.
>
> Don't start a whole thread about this. Just think about it. Let's maybe pick it up down the road if it still matters.

I see that, too.

[fife]

Etznab

Okay? You do? Because it's very difficult for me to understand you, why you ask the questions you do, the way you do, and repeatedly. Not apparently paying any attention to the answers you get, answers you apparently already know any how.

[fife]

Etznab

I mean, I don't know. How could I? Maybe you forget everything and then remember the same question the next day. How do I know unless I ask you about that? Is that personal? Well, yeah. But it's in the interest of understanding you, what you say, and how you say it. And more important, why you say it. So some useful response is possible. There are motives behind motives and not understanding them is why we ask the questions we ask in front of those motives. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Is that personal? I don't know. Most of the time, in my experience, people don't want to be misunderstood.

[Etznab]

My motive for seeking the truth is important to you? You want to know my motive?

Truth in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening. That is a part of my religion, Fife.

"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time."

Based on: The Key to ECKANKAR, by Paul Twitchell, Copyright 1968, Fourth Printing - 1985, pp. 41-42

And if you rather prefer the word "spiritual" instead of Eckankar according to Paul Twitchell's Rebazar Tarzs ...

"The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/218780789/82916572-Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith-1

Either way, truth is important.

[fife]

Etznab

Yep. Truth certainly is important. I live by that same principle. As I said in another post in the last few hours, truth is not the issue. People of honesty and integrity always live that way. And I don't doubt for a minute that you do. Why take it that way? Why do we have our wires crossed?

[fife]

Etznab

Maybe you shouldn't flatly say "people don't understand the word truth. Or what is true." I know who you're talking about and it isn't me or anyone posting on this board these days. Do all of us who are the regular respondents need to be lectured constantly about what we already believe and agree with you about? Just a suggestion... The lurkers? If there are any? Who cares? They only want entertainment.

[fife]

Etznab

You put a lot of effort into your posts but if they make folk's brains glaze over how effective are they and who are you posting to, anyway. That's not a lot of return on all that effort invested.

You could say the same things about my posts and if you want to, why don't you? Touche! I think they're common ideas, and common ideas in Eckankar which everyone on this board is familiar with and what brings everyone to this board in the first place. Familiarity with Eckankar. But if I'm wrong don't you think I'd want to know that, and why?

Is everyone afraid that everyone is going to lose their shit over any little thing? Well, yesterday. Maybe. But not today. So why proceed with that belief?

[fife]

The truth isn't the issue. To me it's the truth about other things (things) that Eckankar stands for that need to be looked into. So I ask what opinions other people have about those. If no one cares or no one's interested. Hell, say so. I'm not going to melt. But they're questions about things. Not personal. Your personal opinion is something for you to reveal or conceal. Just say which and that's all that need be. At least where I come from.

[Etznab]

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 12:56:32 AM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> Etznab
>
> Maybe you shouldn't flatly say "people don't understand the word truth. Or what is true." I know who you're talking about and it isn't me or anyone posting on this board these days. Do all of us who are the regular respondents need to be lectured constantly about what we already believe and agree with you about? Just a suggestion... The lurkers? If there are any? Who cares? They only want entertainment.

One can start from the post on this thread and read to get a context.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OSpZrOYCxY8/Lfh0klMxAQAJ

After agreeing that the paint (over furniture - the truth) analogy was good, Fife starting asking questions (in so many words) like: Where's the furniture? Where's the beef? Where's the house? Etc.

For example:

"To use a food analogy rather than a furniture analogy, where are the meat, potatoes, and vegetables. Everything appears to be garnish to me. All parsley sprinkles."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OSpZrOYCxY8/utnzXAFSAQAJ

On the same thread, after the discussion talked about about myths, truth, does Eckankar have any truth? etc., another poster wrote:

You say there is an Eckankar that is the truth. Who decides which Eckankar is the truth? You? A panel of those "in the know"? And who decides which ones are in the know?

A little shocked to read that.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OSpZrOYCxY8/WVtaFkqhAQAJ

Judging by some of the responses I'm thinking that what I said about truth and Eckankar went right over people's heads. For example:

"Thank God for the Cognoscenti who decide what all knowledge is. And for the Illuminati that decide who the Cognoscenti are. We should all pee our pants in gratitude for the Cognoscenti and Illuminati. Ha ha ha. Whew!"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OSpZrOYCxY8/ygB739GmAQAJ

Thank God! for the Illuminati and the Cognoscenti. Otherwise how would I know not to...
pick my nose...
with a... military sabre?
with a... morningstar?
with a... caltrop?
with a... stinging jellyfish?
with a... blowtorch?

Choices, choices, choices. Decisions, decisions, decisions. Consequences, consequences, consequences.

God Almighty! Life is an awful place to live!

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OSpZrOYCxY8/eKHY2fOoAQAJ

After a number of posts I responded to an earlier post.

"I'm really disturbed people don't understand the word truth. Or what is true.

"If something is true then it is true. It doesn't depend on someone saying it is true. Does someone have to say that fish live in water for it to be true? No. The truth is the truth.

"So anything within the Eckankar teachings that is true is true. And if people don't know it that doesn't mean it isn't true. Same with the untrue and the fictions. Just because people don't know about the untrue pseudo history and religion doesn't mean it isn't untrue. Maybe in their imagination ... until the day when they find the truth."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OSpZrOYCxY8/2lEabV-5AQAJ

I also later added to the thread:

"We are not The Borg. And truth can resist the pseudo history and lies no matter what package they are wrapped in.

"Subjective, Inner Reality, Spiritual, Imagination, Self-Realized, Beyond the Mind, etc. Fiction wrapped in those packages is still fiction!

"You want a judge? Some all-knowing guru to say what is true and what is not? Because people wearing that title are numerous and they have left their marks on history. Many were not honest. Some were deluded. And some said rely on yourself for the answer. And don't worry. Karma will teach you the difference between right and wrong, true and false. Even if it takes lifetimes!"

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OSpZrOYCxY8/q3WvqKpwAwAJ

One of the responses (I haven't the time or the space to transcribe every post on the thread) to the thread was:

Believe me, Etznab. No one who reads a.r.e. is the least bit surprised that you are.

Etznab wrote;
We are not the Borg. And truth can resist the pseudo history and lies no matter what the package is wrapped in.

Sounds like the Borg. Assimilating everything. Resistance is futile. I think you have a fictional idea of truth, its role, and purpose. Because frankly everyone knows what the word means and truth of itself is. It's disturbing that you're obsessed beyond normality about it.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/OSpZrOYCxY8/4bQpb8Z0AwAJ

Fife wrote that he thought I had a fictional idea of truth. Later adding that everybody knows what the word means.

[fife]

Quite the cherry-picked posting. Quotes out of context of their threads. But it's good to see you trying to exercise your sense of humor, the other half of any whole picture. Truth doesn't need an apology or an apologist as you've said many times. And if you apply it assiduously it will out. But that's still only half of the picture. What to do with the other half and how to investigate its worth is another campaign of another sort entirely.

[Etznab]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:01:38 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:
> Quite the cherry-picked posting. Quotes out of context of their threads. But it's good to see you trying to exercise your sense of humor, the other half of any whole picture. Truth doesn't need an apology or an apologist as you've said many times. And if you apply it assiduously it will out. But that's still only half of the picture. What to do with the other half and how to investigate its worth is another campaign of another sort entirely.

One can easily follow the context by following the links I posted.

Quotes out of context to their threads, you say? They were all from the same one thread I thought. The context can be easily followed by clicking on even one of the links I shared. All one has to know how to do is scroll and read. Because there was a context to what I wrote. But of course Fife, you don't really care. Even though you try to make like you do. One only has to read what you write to know that.

[Etznab]

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 12:01:38 PM UTC-5, fife wrote:

> Quite the cherry-picked posting. Quotes out of context of their threads. But it's good to see you trying to exercise your sense of humor, the other half of any whole picture. Truth doesn't need an apology or an apologist as you've said many times. And if you apply it assiduously it will out. But that's still only half of the picture. What to do with the other half and how to investigate its worth is another campaign of another sort entirely.

I must say that the writing style in that post was similar to that written by Kinpa. However, we see that it was not Kinpa, but Fife. Regardless, I do notice a strong similarity between the two posters.

[Etznab]

There was so much bullshit in that post by Fife, IMHO, because he was projecting his own imagination onto me. Just like Kinpa and others used to do.

Maybe you should ask more questions, Fife. Actually try to understand another person and where they are coming from?

[fife]

Whew. Wow. ☺ You won't let go of it, huh?

Etznab wrote:
Maybe you should ask more questions, Fife. Actually try to understand a person and where they are coming from?

I've been doing that but I'm not going to do that any more because that's apparently considered "bullying". But, if you want to accuse me of not knowing how to participate in a narrative with someone who only wants to use one half of their bicameral mind, you're right. And asking about the other half only seems to meet with hostility, so... who needs it? In the end, don't become just another yutz who wants to control the narrative. I don't. Want to. Because I know that's just a waste of time.

[Tisra Til]

> Fife wrote that he thought I had a fictional idea of truth. Later adding that everybody knows what the word means.,

If you read carefully what I and fife were talking about, you can see that we were just joking.

"Subjective, Inner Reality, Spiritual, Imagination, Self-Realized, Beyond the Mind, etc. Fiction wrapped in those packages is still fiction!

You want a judge? Some all-knowing guru to say what is true and what is not? Because people wearing that title are numerous and they have left their marks on history. Many were not honest. Some were deluded. And some said rely on yourself for the answer. And don't worry. Karma will teach you the difference between right and wrong, true and false. Even if it takes lifetimes!"

It does take some serious thinking when talking about the subjects you listed above. Any kind of statement that someone makes about their own subjective experiences HAS to be interpreted by the one considering what that person is proclaiming. If you have no concept of what the self is, the personality is, the subject making the claims is, then the process of trying to translate and understand these thoughts about reality begins.

Most religions began from the experiences of some individual(s). They wrote down or passed their knowledge on orally. Priests (interpreters) were chosen (or self-chosen) to interpret and teach others what the originals were talking about (self-knowledge, self-realization, knowledge of the divine, god-realization, ethics, the imagination, and so on). And all of this was done within a linguistic context. From the beginning of the creator's philosophy, knowledge was passed on within the language that the tribe, community spoke. Over time the language may have changed some in subtle ways, and what was thought of as true at the beginning may not be true from a newer context that has a different language, however removed from the original.

The point is that what is perceived as true or self-evident may not seem to be true or self-evident from a different context. It requires interpretation. That's where gurus and prophets and avatars and saviors come in. They are supposed to be the translators of a tradition that may have ancient roots. Their students, chelas or followers are supposed to understand what the guru is trying to get across. Something they can experience themselves.

SO... interpretation plays a major role in the claims of a religion as to how they view truth or what is true. How does one make someone see the truth of nonduality if they have no idea or clue what one is talking about? Who are they supposed to trust? And how is one supposed to see the truth when the originator-creator took a little bit from this path, a little from that path, some from that path, and another from a different path? Are all of these different paths saying the same thing? Proclaiming the same Truth. I think the thoughtful person would have to go through all of these other paths to try to understand what they are about, and then compare them to the thought-claims of the originator (Eck master, for instance).

Seeing what is true is true is not so cut and dry, imo. Like it is all poured into one mould, cookie-cutter style. Just pour the cookie dough (ideas-truths) into the mould, and all will be easily seen and known to the one eating the cookies (pondering the ideas-truth claims), and bliss supreme will be the prize.

(ummmmmmm………………cookies)

[Henosis Sage]

so true this ..

.......The point is that what is perceived as true or self-evident may not seem to be true or self-evident from a different context. It requires interpretation.

RE .....How does one make someone see the truth of nonduality if they have no idea or clue what one is talking about?

NO one should making someone do anything, imho. they can put forth ideas, tell tales, use analogies, create interest in a topic/aspect but trying to RAM IT down another's throat is doomed to fail. So is BLAMING them for not raising IT as an issue. A little give and take wouldn;t hurt anyone (imho) and cheers, great post TT.

[Tisra Til]

I probably could have worded that better. But no, I didn't mean it in some fascist sense; trying to force something on someone. I was just trying to get across the idea that if someone WANTS and is willing to find out what something means, then helping them find that requires interpretation. Using the methods you mentioned above would certainly be the way to do it. I'm kind of partial to analogies. They really help bridge the gap between non-contiguous phenomena.

[fife]

I was thinking about this the other day. Someone can't lay their idea of Spiritual Consciousness on someone else. There are so many things in someone's own spiritual consciousness that are peculiar to them and no one else that it can't work for someone else. The best anyone can do is broach just the idea of Spiritual Consciousness. The trick, and I don't know if anyone can do it, is present that in a way that the other person can fill in with everything about them, and their own life.

[Henosis Sage]

what you wrote was fine by me, I got where you were coming from, merely adding to the point myself, that's all.

allegories, analogies, sayings that help one flip their assumptions into broader holistic possiblites etc are all good useful tools.

the toughest test is being right that what you're offering is right and helpful. PT was dead set certain and so is HK today and so was MARMAN. :-)