Serious questions for this group

[Etznab]

Why were so many plagiarisms used as material to animate Eck Masters like the "Torchbearer" Rebazar Tarzs? Honestly. Why? What was the reason for all those writings taken from other people and attributed to Rebazar Tarzs; as if spoken by Rebazar Tarzs? What is the reason and how does one explain it? How does one explain it without looking at the considerations that Paul Twitchell copied from library books and over time had material credited to names illustrated by Paul Twitchell himself and also by Eckankar; evidently replacing authors names that appeared with the appropriated text and / or spoken transcript in the first place?

The basic questions are:

Why does this information exist in the first place?

and

How does the information contrast with Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck masters being real and having spoken the words instead?

How does it contrast with hundreds, or thousands of people (after having read the texts) convinced that Rebazar Tarzs and other Eck Masters are real?

*********

Dealing with this information and giving an honest explanation is something I saw several years ago as inevitable for Eckankar and Eckankar members. I saw this after looking at the various newsgroup discussions between Eckankar members and X-members and discussions between David Lane, Doug Marman, Ford Johnson and others. It was probably ten years ago when I spent months and then years looking over the controversial material for myself and the result was that today I still feel sincere honesty is an inevitable and inescapable task potentially awaiting all members of Eckankar, and moreso Eckankar clergy, administrative staff and lawyers.

For me, I see the key question as: "Who? or What? really was / is Rebazar Tarzs?" This is the inescapable admission that awaits revelation IMO and is like a foundational card at the bottom of a whole "house of cards" supporting Eckankar dogma and dogma of other paths, religions and masters as well.

People (some, but not all) can dislike me for sharing such obvious observations. People like members and X-members, etc. People can hate me for it. Can malign my family and friends and attempt to detract from and manipulate my posts and the illustrated examples of plagiarism, pseudo history and religion I've shared. People can deny I am a member of Eckankar and go so far as to publicly lead other people to believe I don't have a current membership card. In the end, however, I could argue that such attacks are but symptoms of a disease. A disease of the imagination run amuck and fed by others infected with inability to have rational conversation without becoming emotionally unstable, and turning neurotic and violent after one's religious ideology suffers editing by reality and the plain truth!

I've written about this non-stop over the years because it is not only with Eckankar dogma and texts where people's imaginations can run wild, but I have seen the same kind of things happen with various other writings and groups claiming to have recorded "inspired" texts; and given by masters, or adepts, etc.

When people go and imagine things that are not true and then argue, fight and (over time begin to) kill each other as a result ... this is what I am talking about. And I'm asking to have a sincere and fair open discussion about it that this can be nipped in the bud not only where Eckankar is concerned, but where misinformation, deception, corruption and lies are used to circumvent representative Democracy and the public good; including the public health and national integrity.

Who? Or what? was / is Rebazar Tarzs really? This is one basic question at the bottom of a whole "house of cards", IMHO. Also, the answer is not something history will forever be able to avoid. Is not something lawyers will forever be able to detract from.

I think people have a right to know why text from so many books, so many course materials and, in some cases, transcript texts were and are being attributed to Rebazar Tarzs and various other spiritual adepts, groups and religions.

In America, at least, I know people have the freedom to publicly (such as in this newsgroup) have open discussions about the subject of Rebazar Tarzs and so many of the writings / teachings associated with that name. Have a right to look at and research the history of a so-called Tibetan lama reportedly over 500 years old supporting a religion called Eckankar; and leaders and teachings of so many other groups as well.

The discussion is not over. The current findings are not final. And the "whole" truth is yet to be written!

[Henosis Sage]

Serious Answer?

Cognitive dissonance: Who are you kidding?

Now, after the non-event, the cultists suddenly wanted publicity. They wanted media attention and coverage. Why? So they could explain how their faith and obedience had helped save the planet from the flood. The aliens had spared planet earth for their sake - and now their new role was to spread the word and make us all listen. This fascinated Festinger. He observed that the real driving force behind the cultists' apparently inexplicable response was the need, not to face the awkward and uncomfortable truth and 'change their minds', but rather to 'make minds comfortable' - to smooth over the unacceptable inconsistencies.

http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk/articles/stop-lying.html

(shrug)

[Tisra Til]

The simple answer to the question 'Is Rebazar Tarzs real?' is....it depends. It depends on how this person is/was viewed, and used. Is he a literary device, used to delineate the philosophy that Paul Twitchell was trying to propagate - as an adjunct or expansion of the Sant Mat, Rhada Soami, Nada Yoga, and Sufi philosophies-teachings? Or was he trying to create a whole new mythos, using the rhetorical style of asking questions that someone else provides the answers to: that someone being the mythological figure of a 500 year old Tibetan. 500 years possibly signifying that the teaching is ancient; Tibet signifying a land of mystery, with a long, unbroken history of spiritual teaching, hidden away from the modern world. Unsoiled by modern hands.

What do we know about literary devices?

"The rhetoric of religion is the study of the linguistic and symbolic techniques involved in the propagating, reinforcing, teaching, or forming of theological beliefs or structures. Many contemporary scholars recognize that the relationship of rhetoric and religion is ancient and it is difficult to separate them. Many rhetorical devices and tropes originated in religious contexts and still carry significant religious connotations. Conversely, religion is deeply indebted to rhetoric since religion would be impossible to communicate, develop, defend, or spread without rhetorical sophistication. Indeed, many of today’s religious education institutions still require courses that develop rhetorical skill and understanding as a part of a balanced religious education. But religious rhetoric involves far more than the study of “God-talk”; the study of religious rhetoric can be extended to apply to all areas in which religion’s language of transcendence seeps into symbolic action, even when religion itself does not explicitly appear. Studying the rhetoric of religion—or religious rhetoric—can further our studies of history, meaning, politics, society, and language itself. Neglecting the study of religious rhetoric would result in missing out on a key part of the rhetorical tradition’s history and perhaps even misunderstanding a vital piece of the essence of rhetoric itself."

http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199756841/obo-9780199756841-0117.xml

Paul Twitchell may have from the beginning the idea of creating a new mythos, with Rebazar Tarzs as the Krishna to Twitchell's Arjuna (Baghavad Gita). A (rhetorical) dialogue between Twitchell's lower self - the confused disciple - with his higher self - the all-knowing Rebazar Tarzs; the Master of masters, used as a form of teaching. Perhaps Twitchell knew from the beginning that this RT character was all myth, a literary device, and either kept the idea to himself before he died, intending to let the mythical cat out of the bag eventually, or shared the truth with only a couple or a handful of people - i.e. High Initiates - who kept their mouths shut after he died, for whatever reasons, and let others believe it all as literal truth.

"The very existence of narrative raises philosophical issues. In narrative, a creator can embody, and readers be led to imagine, fictional characters, and even fantastic creatures or technologies. The ability of the human mind to imagine, and even to experience empathy with, these fictional characters is itself revealing about the nature of the human mind. Some fiction can be thought of as a sort of a thought experiment in ethics: it describes fictional characters, their motives, their actions, and the consequences of their actions. It is in this light that some philosophers have chosen various narrative forms to teach their philosophy.

"Some philosophers have undertaken to write philosophy in the form of fiction, including novels and short stories (see separate article on philosophical fiction). This is apparent early on in the literature of philosophy, where philosophers such as Plato wrote dialogues in which fictional or fictionalized characters discuss philosophical subjects; Socrates frequently appears as a protagonist in Plato's dialogues, and the dialogues are one of the prime sources of knowledge about Socrates' teaching, though at this remove it is sometimes hard to distinguish Socrates' actual positions from Plato's own. Numerous early Christian writers, including Augustine, Boethius, and Peter Abelard produced dialogues; several early modern philosophers, such as George Berkeley and David Hume, wrote occasionally in this genre.

"Other philosophers have resorted to narrative to get their teachings across. The classical 12th century Islamic philosopher, Abubacer (Ibn Tufail), wrote a fictional Arabic narrative Philosophus Autodidactus as a response to al-Ghazali's The Incoherence of the Philosophers, and then the 13th century Islamic theologian-philosopher Ibn al-Nafis also wrote a fictional narrative Theologus Autodidactus as a response to Abubacer's Philosophus Autodidactus. The German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche often articulated his ideas in literary modes, most notably in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, a re-imagined account of the teachings of Zoroaster. Marquis de Sade and Ayn Rand wrote novels in which characters served as mouthpieces for philosophical positions, and act in accordance with them in the plot. George Santayana was also a philosopher who wrote novels and poetry; the relationship between Santayana's characters and his beliefs is more complex. The existentialists include among their numbers important French authors who used fiction to convey their philosophical views; these include Jean-Paul Sartre's novel Nausea and play No Exit, and Albert Camus's The Stranger. Maurice Blanchot's entire fictional production, whose titles include The Step Not Beyond, The madness of the Day, and The Writing of Disaster, among others, constitutes an indispensable corpus for the treatment of the relationship between philosophy and literature. So does Jacques Derrida's The Post Card: From Socrates to Freud and Beyond."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_and_literature

[Henosis Sage]

Excellent info tisra, it;s perfect for this space ... but would be much more effective at an eck seminar LOL

RE this bit you got it 99 correct, let me make a few needed changes:

Paul Twitchell DID, from the beginning, ACTED ON the idea of creating a new mythos, with Rebazar Tarzs as the Krishna to Twitchell's Arjuna (Baghavad Gita).

A (rhetorical) dialogue between Twitchell's lower self - the confused disciple - with his higher self - the all-knowing Rebazar Tarzs; the Master of masters, used as a form of teaching.

------ Twitchell knew from the beginning that this RT character was all myth, a literary device, and HE kept the idea to himself before he died, WRONGLY ASSUMING EVERYONE WOULD WORK IT OUT FOR THEMSELVES HE CREATED A ROD FOR HIS OWN BACK --- BUT shared the truth with only a couple or a handful of people - i.e. High Initiates - who kept their mouths shut after he died, for whatever reasons, and let others believe it all as literal truth.

eg Patti Simpson, Gail Twitchell, Helen Baird, Millie Moore, Pat Henderson, Dr Bluth, et al

Not the Klemp/s, not Darwin Gross, and definitely the ESC office staff or Doug Marman, or those in Akatha or Vardankar or ATOM et al

SO, TWITCHELL KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING ALL THE TIME FROM 1963/64 AND THOUGHT IT WAS A GREAT IDEA ...... BUT HE WAS A FOOL AND INCOMPETENT AND ON A MASSIVE SELF-CENTERED DELUSIONAL HEAD TRIP OUT TO MAKE A LIVING FOR HIMSELF SHARING WHAT HE KNEW FROM HIS STUDY READING "religio-spiritual-psychological LIFE EXPERIENCES BY PRESENTING HIMSELF AS AN EXPERT .... HE WAS NOT, FAR FROM IT ... IMHO/IME

[Tisra Til]

Thanks, Mr. Sage ;o)

"eg Patti Simpson, Gail Twitchell, Helen Baird, Millie Moore, Pat Henderson, Dr Bluth"

Are any of those still amongst the living? I know you've mentioned their names many times, but I don't know if any of them are still alive.

[Etznab]

Remember how the Eckankar teachings boasted about a LIVING master and ALWAYS having had a LIVING master in an unbroken lineage? In contrast to teachings without a living teacher, Eckankar claimed it was different because it did & always had a LIVING master.

(I can locate part of the quotes taken straight out of (compiled from, stolen, or plagiarized from - whichever you prefer - The Path Of The Masters by Julian Johnson.)

So there is no myth here. That's not what was (or perhaps still is) being sold! What is being sold is always a LIVING master in an unbroken lineage (contrast that with fictional characters and plagiarized / paraphrased text and it amounts to a BIG, BIG difference!

Now consider Letters to Gail and consider how many times the name Rebazar Tarzs appears in Letters to Gail Vol. 2. Consider also the possibility that this name did NOT appear in Letters to Gail Vol. One either.

We already have an example of Rebazar Tarzs replacing Jesus.

"[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy, walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"

Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd paragraph.

*** COMPARE *** COMPARE *** COMPARE *** COMPARE *** COMPARE *** COMPARE ***

"[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus, who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy — walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the splendors of Rome. [... .]"

https://archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

My suggestion is that Paul's original letter contained the name Jesus and that Rebazar Tarzs was added later. And if that was the case (of course there are other examples of name replacement) then it shows that Paul was NOT, NOT, NOT creating a myth. No. The myth, I would argue, came with the "creation" of Paul Twitchell's "Eckankar".

I think one really has to not only look at the writings, old and new, but look at them in context to WHEN they were written. The timeline of Eckankar writings and their evolution is still largely hidden and cannot be studied apart from Paul Twitchell's original manuscripts. I say that one can't depend only on the published books for an accurate look at how the writings changed. And I say this because what the books don't how id how the manuscripts were edited. Including Paul's letters to Gail!

There is at least one person with a bird's eye view of what really took place, IMHO, and his name if Harold Klemp. (If, indeed he has the manuscripts and has access to them.) I would bet there are others who also know what happened. A list that probably includes Darwin Gross, Gail and Doug Marman at least (who, I believe, also had access to the manuscripts).

The claptrap about Paul keeping secret things from Gail, or Gail keeping secrets from Darwin I don't believe for one minute. Instead I believe they knew the truth and tried to color it over with what had become long-established belief in the minds of members.

I think there is so much black and white evidence of what happened it really, really amazes me how people can't see it. Also (get ready for this folks) David Lane was spot on with a good portion of his research and DID MORE to reveal the truth than probably anybody else. One can criticize Dave like one can criticize Doug and others, but David's findings speak for their self and are available for anybody to look at and see glaring examples of plagiarism after plagiarism, name change after name change. Really there is no sweeping what happened under the rug. Bargaining is just another stage in death of an ideal and is something that Doug Marman (IMO) was highly fond of. I think it's time for the acceptance stage for everybody. People can prolong it as long as they want, but Harold spoke about Death of an Ideal for a reason. One can look at everything that Harold spoke about before he came to this part about Death of An Ideal. And he told why for God's sake! He also told about what (not all, but) some people were guilty of.

Here is a little context so one can see the sequence (cryptic though it may be).

... Quoting ...

The Real Foundation

Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bringing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith in the Mahanta — but not at the expense of making a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves: We have limited the opportunity for our own unfoldment. [...] Paul encouraged people to read The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad and make their own study. He never said to take the words as holy, as the last word. You take the words and check out the teachings from within: Does this work for me or doesn't it? You have to know. And based upon what you know is how you conduct your life out here. This is what governs your relationship with your friends and your family. It governs every aspect of you in the lower worlds, including your ethics and morality. [...]

Death of an Ideal

And so we have, perhaps, the death of an ideal. This means that no longer can we make a god out of a man. It was never intended. Many of us haven't done this, but some of us have. [... .]

... end quote ...

http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html

No matter what the majority of a congregation believes, or wants to believe, if the majority wants something then maybe it's a little like the Kinks song "Give the people what they want." Maybe religion has catered to group-think already for centuries and was something useful to the hierarchy of government when the twain (religion and government) were the same.

I think one can easily look today at how propaganda is used by the government via modern media and how it has been perfected like an art form. So many people are fooled and don't know fact from fiction when they haven't the initiative to do any research and fact checking for themselves.

And this is how (i would submit) people are controlled like puppets on strings, whether controlled by government or religion. It is because people have stopped thinking for themselves and blindly accept what is told to them.

[Etznab]

One can look at the quotes on this thread and the sources which contained them. One can consider the dates of the texts and which came first. The idea that a Rebazar Tarzs gave this information comes way after the fact. After the fact that Julian Johnson wrote about it in the 1930s and Paul Twitchell likely "compiled" (or used it) in the 1960s-1970s.

Doug Marman, the chief apologist, conceded and told in his own words about why Paul Twitchell used the form of writing that he did. It was a form of (IMO) the "bargaining" stage for death of an ideal where people think "Isn't there a way I can work this out?" Still, that stage is still shy of full acceptance.

[wernertrp]

There is no Polaroid of RT.
RT is first seen in the head of Paul Twitchell only.
Later after the membership of Eckankar grows to 10 000
the follwers are seeing (have a hallucination) of the picture of RT
which has formed the neurons in heads of those followers and
stimulated hallucination in their heads.

RT eine echte Kopfgeburt.

[Henosis Sage]

Only Gail born 1942 .... but who knows.

I hope lives even longer like HK and ******* a lot - (shrug)

[sign...@gmail.com]

I have no doubts about the reality of the ECK Masters. What I am confused about is whether you are really an ECKist. To me it seems inconceivable that you could be but that's what you've asserted.

[Etznab]

It looks to me like you are in some form of denial; one of the stages for death of an ideal.

Paul Twitchell started out LTG1 speaking about ideals and the need to find an ideal. Years later his successor, Harold Klemp, after speaking about Paul T. spelled out the different stages for death of an ideal.

What about Rebazar Tarzs and what he supposedly told to Paul being a bunch of copied, paraphrased and plagiarized text? How bout it Rob? What say you about that?

Maybe it's time for a new ideal. Aye?

I got one. How about the ideal of looking at truth in religious history and dogma vs. fiction, pseudo man (and woman) made history and religion? Seriously. No Joke! Imagine how many people would jump at a chance to follow that ideal. The conga line exiting organized religions for decades could do a 180 and come stampeding to join the movement to have truth instead of chaos reigning in their lives.

What am I talking about? Does anybody want an example?

Quoting ...

This is a time for Truth, the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. This is no time for half truths, for bewilderment and lack of understanding, for these are the soil in which helpless grief grows. In truth alone is there comfort and understanding and courage. That is why, because I understand so well, I am giving you Truth. - Bernard

http://thought-bricks.com/courses/thought-bricks-foundation-lessons/thought-bricks-11-real-die/

It looks like the founder of Eckankar, Paul Twitchell, was on board with that.

Quoting ...

This is the time for Truth "the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth." This is no time for half-Truths, for bewilderment and lack of understanding. These constitute the soil in which grief grows. In Truth alone there is comfort, understanding and courage.

- The Flute of God, by Paul Twitchell, 8th Printing - 1982, Chapter 9 - (THE SHAPE OF THE ALTAR), p. 128

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/_8VhHmZF4ng/JHAubYVbBgAJ

Here is another example. Quoting ...

Apart from Truth being spoken to others, Truth is an absolute need in our lives. We must see Truth and know Truth and think Truth, always. If we refuse to see Truth, or pretend we cannot tell what is true and what is not; if we distort Truth or seek to mix it with untruth; if we, in fact, like to deceive both ourselves and others if the truth does not present an attractive aspect to us, then chaos will reign in our lives. Our Real Self will be in conflict with our outer self and we shall continually find ourselves in the most unpleasant situations.

http://thought-bricks.com/courses/thought-bricks-foundation-lessons/thought-bricks-9-truth-liberator/

Twitchell:

Before you can give Truth to others, Truth must be known as the absolute need in your life. We must see Truth and know Truth and think Truth always.
Refuse to see Truth, pretend that it is impossible to know what is true and what is not, distort Truth, seek to mix it with Untruth, attempt to deceive both ourselves and others, give Truth in an unattractive manner, then chaos will reign in our lives. Our real self will be in conflict with our outer self and we will continually find ourselves in the most unpleasant situations.

- The Flute of God, by Paul Twitchell, 8th Printing - 1982, Chapter 9 - (THE SHAPE OF THE ALTAR), pp. 127-128

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/56U-w_TghZU/3EBuPOUSBAAJ

So why not a religion aimed at clarifying fact from fiction across the board? I think it's time. In fact, there was a time when science and religion were (for the most part) one and the same before they diverged.

Does it bother you Rob that an Eckist is not afraid to point out the Emperor's new clothes? I think it's only a matter of time before those in denial come around and see the truth as well.

Your latest quip is not something new to me, Rob. However I think you and others really do Eckankar a disservice when coming off as overly critical against those who don't believe the same as you; as if to paint them with one broad black brush stroke, or want to label them as anti-eck.

Numerous people have come through this group over the years. Some who were part of Eckankar and served the organization for decades. Others who still remain as members but are not afraid to look at the controversial material including many examples of copying and name changes. Lots of good people who yearn to imbibe on the truth vs. fiction ... and How were they? How are they treated in this and other forums with the high holy rollers of "Bright Future" and self-righteous Eckankar enthusiasts and their "big muddy boots" slinging mud all over several well intentioned posts?

Maybe it's time for another example?

"... This is something for the history books how Kinpa and JR have failed. How they have got things ass backwards for attacking truth and praising lies instead. [... .]"

Quoting ...

"The student of spiritual wisdom cannot go through his day, satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning, or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious activity of truth going on all the time. - Practicing the Presence

http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

"Anyone following the path of ECKANKAR cannot go through a day satisfied that he has read some truth in the morning or that he is going to hear some truth in the afternoon or evening. There must be a conscious realization of truth going on all the time." [The Key to Eckankar]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/ejywO-s5UaM/VTaDsdUnBwAJ

I'm not responsible that you (Rob) and Kinpa can't believe the truth that I am an Eckist and have been continuously since the 1980s. And it's not my problem whether Eckists or X-Eckists can't understand the place of truth in religion and one doesn't have to flee their religion in order to preserve the truth. One can simply add their 2 cents of fact-finding truth and add it to the 2 cents of so many other members and the fictions won't have a dark place to hide.

[Etznab]

IMHO this is the way one can purge religion )and government, etc.) of corruption and lies. Reveal the provable beyond-a-doubt truths and put them right beside the chaos of fiction and lies. People will know the difference. But only after the two are placed side by side.

Take the "compiled" writings of Eckankar for example. There may be many good and highly inspired writings and (in several examples) the only difference is who was given credit. As a religion, I think it's natural for Eckankar to want to take credit for the writings presented by them. Now if the same writings exist in earlier sources and were copied by the Eckankar founder then perhaps they are not original to Eckankar and Eck Masters. Maybe THIS is the duplicity and the chaos comes from wanting to make the Eck Masters as real as the people who wrote the texts in the first place. My point is that What if they can't? What if any of the Eck Masters were imaginary, or literary devices? I don't think that's a problem so long as people can admit it. I think it becomes a problem if it is the truth and people can't admit it. I think this is where chaos can live and grow as multiple masters and groups begin to prop up their masters one against the other. Like, How many Rebazar Tarzs' are there already now?

If there is truth that can reveal more about who, or what really was / is Rebazar Tarzs then I believe it needs to be nipped in the bud now. Even that the time is long past due already because the Eckankar splinter groups (complete with their own versions of Rebazar Tarzs) are growing!

It's a little humorous how many groups that splintered off from Eckankar are not the same now as they were years ago. Even how some of the pages that list the various masters have changed. Also is interesting how many "pro-" and "anti-eckankar" newsgroups have gone by the wayside or morphed into something strange.
How many avatars and other-worldly beings is Ford Johnson's site endorsing, or writing about now? Who would have imagined? Certainly not me. I thought Ford was after the truth initially and said he was gonna have files and files, etc. But now, even the files he had are defunct.

Maybe Eckankar challenged all the imposters and strapped restrictions on them? Or what they can say, or do? I don't know exactly. However, even the Eckankar presentations are not immune to censure and investigation. Like members who have a liking for the truth vs. fiction.

[Henosis Sage]

Neato! (smile)

[Henosis Sage]

Pride comes before a fall.

Watch your step Robert :-)

[sign...@gmail.com]

Comrade Sage! It's been a while. How's the law suit against ECKANKAR shaping up?

[sign...@gmail.com]

There's a very good reason ECKists, by and large give this forum a miss. It's not about spiritual unfoldment, the very thing the average ECKist regards this precious lifetime as being all about

Trying to go to God by endlessly analysing the written word and expecting to find perfection there is a waste of time.

There are 2 kinds of ECKists in this world, those who do the Spiritual Exercises of ECK and those who don't. The former live a life rich in spiritual experience and go beyond the written word. Is the ECKist committed to spiritual growth?

[Etznab]

It is a spiritual exercise discovering the name Rebazar Tarzs attached to the writings of so many authors. It tells me a lot about Rebazar Tarzs.

[Henosis Sage]

Curious ..... who in your high opinion is: "endlessly analysing the written word and expecting to find perfection there"?

After being advised directly to your face that is not me nor Etznab, and I am absolutely 100% certain of that factual Truth.

AND after being advised directly to your face that BOTH me and Etznab, did and continue to do "spitirual exercises" continue to have access to inner guidance and all that entails, and GIVEN that it was that very guidance and direction of INNER MASTERS that sent us on our merry way to find true factual relevant issues and every time we followed that INNER GUIDANCE and INNER TIPS we found STUFF that we never knew existed or could have known existed in the first place becasue WE BOTH never ever IMAGINED that that was the case!

Fair dinkum Rob you are an arrogant gullible stupid obnoxious piece of work. As dumb as dirt and an egotistic opinionated Jackass. I know that for a fact - because you repeatedly prove that every time you write something here and cast your LUDICROUS UNFOUNDED OPINIONS ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE~!!!

Clearly your own INNER GUIDANCE is seriously flawed because if you had any degree of INNER GUIDANCE or any kind of CONTACT with GENUINE "ECK/SPIRIT" MASTERS YOU WOULD ALREADY FUCKING KNOW THIS YOU TWIT!!!

May god and the "eck masters" help all those that have to deal with you on a daily basis!!!

[Henosis Sage]

On Friday, 4 August 2017 22:58:07 UTC+10, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> Comrade Sage! It's been a while. How's the law suit against ECKANKAR shaping up?

I do not know and do not give a flying fuck.

It's got nothing to do with me you stupid man - if you had any REAL inner guidance or were being advised by any kind of genuine ECK/Spiritual Masters from doing YOUR spiritual Exercises then you would already know that you arrogant opinionated insulting TWAT!

But you do not know shit - so what does that tell you about your own ludicrous claims and assumptions?

[Henosis Sage]

Rob, if it would help I can repost my comments in BRAILE ..... I hear it is helpful for THE BLIND!!!

[Tisra Til]

LMAO..

[Tisra Til]

On Friday, August 4, 2017 at 8:12:47 AM UTC-5, sign...@gmail.com wrote:

Ah, so that explains why Twitchell wrote all of those books, and all of those thousands upon thousands of words, FOR PROFIT. From the pen (typewriter) of the mighty profit (um, prophet). Uh-huh (o~O)

[sign...@gmail.com]

Comrade Sage,
I must confess, I do find your incessant rage entertaining. It's always completely unnecessary and never reciprocated.

[sign...@gmail.com]

Comrade Sage,
Please learn to have a modicum of tolerance for opinions different from yours.
I'm making this request on behalf of your health and blood pressure.

[sign...@gmail.com]

Comrade Sage,
I hope you don't speak to the grandchildren with this potty mouth. Tut, tut.

[Henosis Sage]

On Saturday, 5 August 2017 20:26:21 UTC+10, sign...@gmail.com wrote:
> Comrade Sage,
> I hope you don't speak to the grandchildren with this potty mouth. Tut, tut.

No of course I don't.

I reserve such rhetoric only for insideous fuckwits like you Rob - if you had any success doing your spiritual exercises then you'd already know that and wouldn't need to ask you stupid small minded foolish little man!

[Henosis Sage]

On Friday, 4 August 2017 22:58:07 UTC+10, sign...@gmail.com wrote:

> Comrade Sage! It's been a while. How's the law suit against ECKANKAR shaping up?

SHOVE IT ROBERT
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/rDnz-h6LXgo/8lI-vrL6AgAJ

[Henosis Sage]

[bani...@gmail.com]

Can we all just get along ?

[bani...@gmail.com]

[bani...@gmail.com]

Yes... Tisra Til ... it is quite comical.... maybe if everyone here would focus their time and energy on their spiritual practices instead of this negativity we would advance ourselves a bit further in discovering more about the truth of our owm divinity.

[Henosis Sage]

On Tuesday, 8 August 2017 11:42:30 UTC+10, BaniKalam wrote:
> Can we all just get along ?

NOPE ... takes more than myself alone or etznab himself alone to get along .... with whoever!

BaniKalam sounds like a nym that Matt Sharpe would use imho.

He couldn't get along with a WALL without a fight and insulting it and threatening it and lying about it claiming it wasn;t actually a real wall.

So no, WE (whoever that is) cannot get along ... it's a choice by EACH individual every step of the way.

Robert made his individual choices to NOT GET ALONG from the get go YEARS AGO and has not changed an ounce.

so that's the deal - that and it;s 2017 smack bang in the most extreme TRANSITS for decades right now today and ongoing.

Getting along with "everyone" is not an option -- unless your preference is to be a slave to other's unconscious drives -- ever heard of TRUMP? <vbg>

[no...@nowhere.com]

On 8/7/2017 9:44 PM, bani...@gmail.com wrote:
> can we all just get along ?
>

Apparently not :-)

And why should this newsgroup be any different from any other place?
This world is full of strife and disagreement. The North Koreans don't
like the south, the Tibetans don't want the Chinese around, the Indians
don't get along with the Pakistanis ... and on it goes.

People are like stones tumbling down a mountain stream. Rough edges
polish the other rough edges. That's how this world works right now.
We're all just polishing each other (whether we like it or not).
Eventually we all get rounded out.

[Etznab]

On Monday, August 7, 2017 at 8:56:02 PM UTC-5, BaniKalam wrote:
> Yes... Tisra Til ... it is quite comical.... maybe if everyone here would focus their time and energy on their spiritual practices instead of this negativity we would advance ourselves a bit further in discovering more about the truth of our owm divinity.

Curious (since you are new here) what do you think about Rebazar Tarzs speaking plagiarized words that Paul Twitchell copied out of books?

Does it, in your opinion, make Rebazar Tarzs more real, or less real?

I mean taking other people's words as if to animate a character called R.T.?

Kinda like a ventriloquist dummy. What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt99QqoU4FQ

[Henosis Sage]

(smile)

“They just needed to say something in response – you poke the North Koreans in the eye and they poke you back.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/08/trump-administration-north-korea-diplomacy-talks

Works for me LOL

[Tisra Til]

It won't happen until everyone realizes the oneness of it all. That's not likely to happen for a long time.

[Kinpa]

On Thursday, August 3, 2017 at 9:28:14 AM UTC-4, Etznab wrote:

Stop masking your own denial! Hilarious! He asked you whether or not you are an ECKist. Why did you not answer him and try to change the subject? I know that you have CLAIMED to be an ECKist, but you have never actually proven that to be true. I like him highly doubt that you are in any way affiliated with Eckankar in the least of ways...it may not be your responsibility, but I am calling you a liar for claiming to be an ECKist. You ARE responsible for making false claims. Deal with it. Also, plagiarism in no way disproves the existence of any Masters... Have a great day richie!

https://youtu.be/EAHshLdgj5Q

[Kinpa]

" Stealing from one author is plagiarism; from many authors, research. "

- Walter Moers

[wernertrp]

stealing from all authors is genious.

[Tisra Til]

From a writer of fantasies. How appropriate. :o)

[Etznab]

What Kinpa wrote:

"Stop masking your own denial! Hilarious! He asked you whether or not you are an ECKist. Why did you not answer him and try to change the subject? [... .]"

What Rob wrote:

"I have no doubts about the reality of the ECK Masters. What I am confused about is whether you are really an ECKist. To me it seems inconceivable that you could be but that's what you've asserted."

What Etznab wrote:

"It looks to me like you are in some form of denial; one of the stages for death of an ideal. [...] Does it bother you Rob that an Eckist is not afraid to point out the Emperor's new clothes? I think it's only a matter of time before those in denial come around and see the truth as well.

Your latest quip is not something new to me, Rob. However I think you and others really do Eckankar a disservice when coming off as overly critical against those who don't believe the same as you; as if to paint them with one broad black brush stroke, or want to label them as anti-eck. [...] I'm not responsible that you (Rob) and Kinpa can't believe the truth that I am an Eckist and have been continuously since the 1980s. And it's not my problem whether Eckists or X-Eckists can't understand the place of truth in religion and one doesn't have to flee their religion in order to preserve the truth. One can simply add their 2 cents of fact-finding truth and add it to the 2 cents of so many other members and the fictions won't have a dark place to hide."

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Y3d-5iRxC7s/K56EwbDKAQAJ
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.religion.eckankar/Y3d-5iRxC7s/_2oihE7NAQAJ

[Henosis Sage]

[Henosis Sage]

On Monday, 14 August 2017 10:01:55 UTC+10, Etznab wrote:

---

I know, I know. Dealing with control freaks and psychotics that cannot even READ is really saddening.

But what can you do? Nothing.

If only there was an audio version of a.r.e. maybe you could place some true comments on auto-repeat for ever? Hey, it still wouldn't make a jot niranjan difference to these two dysfunctional incompetents though.... nor that idiot JR.

ROTFLOL and endlessly (Shrugging)

[Etznab]

On Thursday, August 3, 2017 at 8:55:10 AM UTC-5, Etznab wrote:

> IMHO this is the way one can purge religion )and government, etc.) of corruption and lies. Reveal the provable beyond-a-doubt truths and put them right beside the chaos of fiction and lies. People will know the difference. But only after the two are placed side by side.
>
> Take the "compiled" writings of Eckankar for example. There may be many good and highly inspired writings and (in several examples) the only difference is who was given credit. As a religion, I think it's natural for Eckankar to want to take credit for the writings presented by them. Now if the same writings exist in earlier sources and were copied by the Eckankar founder then perhaps they are not original to Eckankar and Eck Masters. Maybe THIS is the duplicity and the chaos comes from wanting to make the Eck Masters as real as the people who wrote the texts in the first place. My point is that What if they can't? What if any of the Eck Masters were imaginary, or literary devices? I don't think that's a problem so long as people can admit it. I think it becomes a problem if it is the truth and people can't admit it. I think this is where chaos can live and grow as multiple masters and groups begin to prop up their masters one against the other. Like, How many Rebazar Tarzs' are there already now?
>
> If there is truth that can reveal more about who, or what really was / is Rebazar Tarzs then I believe it needs to be nipped in the bud now. Even that the time is long past due already because the Eckankar splinter groups (complete with their own versions of Rebazar Tarzs) are growing!
>
> It's a little humorous how many groups that splintered off from Eckankar are not the same now as they were years ago. Even how some of the pages that list the various masters have changed. Also is interesting how many "pro-" and "anti-eckankar" newsgroups have gone by the wayside or morphed into something strange.
> How many avatars and other-worldly beings is Ford Johnson's site endorsing, or writing about now? Who would have imagined? Certainly not me. I thought Ford was after the truth initially and said he was gonna have files and files, etc. But now, even the files he had are defunct.
>
> Maybe Eckankar challenged all the imposters and strapped restrictions on them? Or what they can say, or do? I don't know exactly. However, even the Eckankar presentations are not immune to censure and investigation. Like members who have a liking for the truth vs. fiction.

"IMHO this is the way one can purge religion )and government, etc.) of corruption and lies. Reveal the provable beyond-a-doubt truths and put them right beside the chaos of fiction and lies. People will know the difference. But only after the two are placed side by side. [... .]"